What is spiritual, what is natural and what is literal?

Jeff, I would have posted in the other threads, but it seemed appropriate to start a new one because it is after all a different subject but one that I think we have to deal with if we are going to understand prophecy.

This is not a thread about the state of Israel. Please don't make it about the physical state of Israel. Down below I describe the difference between natural Israel and spiritual Israel from the point of view of the Scriptures. They are not one in the same. We are discussing scriptures, and what is meant by spiritual, natural and literal meanings.

The contrast in the Bible is not between the spiritual and the literal, but between the spiritual and the natural. Literal means "true to fact", so "Literal" can refer to that which is spiritual or natural. In other words scripture may be speaking about something which exists in the natural realm or it may be speaking about something which exists in the spiritual realm.

For instance: Satan and fallen angels literally exist, but you cannot see them in the natural except as their character is manifested in men. Literal does not mean you can see it with physical eyes. It just means it is absolutely true.

In another example, we read: ‘There was a war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels’ (Rev. 12:7). Also, that ‘we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places’ (Eph. 6:12).

This is literally (true to fact) in the spiritual realm.

So, understanding the difference between that which is spiritual, natural and literal is very important to understand since many proponents of futurism are sowing confusion by replacing the natural with "literal" and by not allowing the word "literal" to be used for spiritual realities. A "literal" interpretation does not call for something to be visible or material. All prophecies which refer to Israel, Jerusalem and Zion do not refer to that which is ONLY in the natural realm and should not be interpreted that way.

Jesus is referred to as a "Door", but is He literally a door?

He is referred to as a "Branch" in Zechariah, and the "Root of Jesse", in Isaiah and repeated in Romans by Paul.

Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Is Jesus reigning over the Gentiles physically? No. He is ruling and reigning over His Body, spiritually.

As I said before, literal means "True to fact". It is a reality!! In the natural realm or the spiritual realm, it is a reality.

Let the Word be the Word. Human reason as the final measure of truth strips the Gospel of it's supernatural, and the curse of the allegorical method obscures the true meaning of the Word of God. There has to be a balance and scripture provides that for us.

The Bible is not a mystery book but a Revelation to be understood. Revelation means to "uncover" or "reveal", meaning there are realities that cannot be seen that are revealed.

The NT is crystal clear regarding the "seed of Abraham". I don't think anyone here would argue that to whom "all the promises of God" belong are those who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. Let's look at the Word of God.

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that THEY WHICH ARE OF FAITH, the same are the children of Abraham.

Gal 3:29 And IF ye be Christ's, THEN are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I hope you can see that this is literally true (redundant) and yet it is a spiritual reality.

The New Testament also plainly reveals that Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac and Paul uses this to draw a distinction between natural "Israel", "Zion" and "Jerusalem" and also a spiritual counterpart of each. Just as Ishmael preceded Isaac but was cast out and not to be the "heir" with the son of the freewoman, even so natural Israel, Zion and Jerusalem preceded the spiritual realities of the same (Israel, Zion and Jerusalem). God's order in the working of His eternal purposes is first the natural and then the spiritual.

1 Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Hopefully, so far we are all agreeing with the plain reading of scripture.

And who is the "Heir", who is the TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD? It is no other than Jesus Christ, Himself. This is literally a spiritual reality. Jesus is the obedient Son and Paul shows us the promises were made to Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his SEED were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; BUT AS OF ONE, AND TO THY SEED, WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST.

And if you and I are in Christ we are heirs with Christ so that all who are in Christ are the spiritual Israel, not the natural Israel.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Church does not replace natural Israel. This is error. Natural Israel coexists alongside spiritual Israel.

Circumcision or uncircumcision of the flesh mean nothing in spiritual Israel, circumcision of the heart (Rom 2:28), is what is important.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the ISRAEL OF GOD.

Paul again draws the distinction between Jerusalem below and Jerusalem above. He says the one below (natural Jerusalem) is in bondage with her children (natural Israel), but Jerusalem above is free and the mother of us all (spiritual Israel, those who have faith in Jesus Christ). Paul uses an allegory to reveal spiritual realities.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Hopefully, we are all still in agreement as it is pretty difficult to make of these verses some other interpretation.

Now, if you are going to say that the true Zion, of the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem does not literally exist in the spiritual realm and that there is no literal "holy nation" and "royal priesthood" of which Peter speaks, then I can understand why many who believe in futurism find it difficult to understand Old Testament prophecies which speak of these spiritual realities name above which are RIGHT NOW IN EXISTENCE.

Zechariah 3, is referring to Jesus Christ
Zechariah 6, "the Man whose name is the BRANCH" who shall build the temple of the Lord"; "He shall bear the glory, and He shall sit and rule upon His throne; and He shall be a priest upon His throne.".

I think we all agree that this prophecy was fulfilled and is presently being fulfilled, now. (Heb 2:9, 8:1). And the prophet goes on to say that crowns shall be given also to certain men, whom he names, and that "they that are far off” (a scriptural designation of Gentiles, see Acts 2:39 and Eph 2:13), ‘shall come and build in the temple of the Lord.’

Furthermore, in Zechariah 9:9 we have the familiar passage: ‘Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion… behold, thy King cometh unto thee’; and we know to a certainty, from Luke 19:38, that that prophecy was fulfilled when Christ came to Jerusalem to die for our salvation.

Zechariah 13:7-9 is speaking about the atoning death of Christ. Smite the Shepherd and the sheep shall be scattered (also in Matt 26:31).

Zechariah 14:8 - ‘And it shall be in that day that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former (or eastern) sea [the Caspian], and half of them towards the hinder sea” [the Mediterranean] ”“ in other words, both eastward and westward ”“ ‘in summer and in winter it shall be’ ”“ that is, all the year round.

What was Zechariah talking about?
During a visit to Jerusalem, at the season of one of the feasts, ‘in the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried saying, If any man thirst, let him come to Me and drink, he that believeth on Me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water’ (John 7:37-38).

I wonder what the "literal" crowd thinks of rivers of living water flowing out of one's belly?

‘And many nations shall be joined unto the Lord IN THAT DAY’ (Zech 2:11).
Act 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these DAYS.

What is the single most important day in human history? The day Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world.

And so, when Zechariah says (13:1) ‘In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleaness,’ we understand clearly that he is foretelling the cross of Christ; as very plainly appears from verse 7, ‘Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, and against the Man that is My Fellow, says the Lord of hosts; smite the Shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.’

Where futurists say 2/3 of Jewish people will die at the 2nd Coming of Christ? What does the Word say?

Zech 13:8
‘And it shall come to pass that in all the land, says the Lord, two parts shall be cut off, and die; but the third part shall be left therein.’ And in agreement with this prophecy, the Pharisees and the Sadducees, were ‘cut off’; but a third part, the disciples of Christ, were left. And as to these, the prophecy goes on to say: ‘And I will bring the third part through the fire and will refine them as silver is refined’ (1 Pet. 1:6 and 4:12); and further ‘they shall call on My Name and I will hear them. I will say, it is My people; and they shall say, the Lord is My God’ (Rom. 11:1,2).

Since the resurrection of Christ, Jews and Gentiles are being "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone; in whom all the building, fitly framed together, grows into an holy temple in the Lord". (1 Pet 1:20,21)

With all this in view, Zechariah's prophecies explained by the New Testament scriptures, how can I believe in futurism, (another age after the Church age where certain people are given another chance at salvation) and the verses I have named above in Zechariah have a clear spiritual fulfillment in this age via NT scriptures? I would have to completely ignore how scripture is interpreting scripture. I would have to literally ignore what is happening in the spiritual realm.

Anyway, I have never heard of Joel Richardson, and my time is limited during the week, so you will have to give me some details on him and specifically what to read as I just can't sit down and read a book. Maybe you can some of a few of his most important premises.

Good Lord Julius,
I have to admit, I didn't even read your (VERY LONG) post, because it's disingenious. I feel it's crafty, but dishonest (just being real brother). "This is not about Israel, please don't make it about Israel....now let me build my case for Preterist/Supercessionism/Replacement Theology..." If you want to be taken serious by me, maybe be willing to read the book I recommended. To state your article isn't what it's clearly getting at, is well.......dishonest/sneaky. I'm not trying to be harsh or obstinate, just honest.
God Bless,
Jeff

the devil is very crafty Jeff, You are catching on to those here

Jeff,

Please! If we can't talk about what is spiritual and natural and what is the meaning of literal, then why discuss?

And if we can't talk about why OT prophecies which are clearly fulfilled with NT scripture witness, then we are both speaking a language neither understands.

So, you think all the prophecies in Zechariah are awaiting a physical fulfillment sometime in the future and the NT scripture witness to those verses are being taken out of context?! That is a rhetorical question/statement, no need to answer because I already know from your initial response what you think. And I was not expecting your response.

I don't think you see the danger in a large part of the Church ignoring the spiritual fulfillment of OT scriptures and then making up a future dispensation where these scriptures are supposed to be fulfilled and at what a horrible cost to natural Israel. Self-fulfilling prophecy of John Hagee who is calling for an Armageddon in the Middle East. He thinks he can hasten the day of Christ by precipitating Armageddon and 70 million listen to him. This belief will bring so much harm to natural Israel. Whether you see that or not, that is what I am seeing in the future with this theology. But, my post was not about that. If you and I can't get on the same sheet of music as to the difference between spiritual and natural and what literal means, then we are wasting our time.

So, you and others get to freely talk about future events, but no one is allowed to contest what you say with scriptures lest they be ridiculed. They can only agree with you because if they disagree they are dogged with unkind remarks and lies and slander. Do you like that? Is that what you want?

docs does not believe like I do and he has not acted in any way hostile such as others. He has been the only one in the forum courageous enough to speak up when slander and lies and accusations and just plain evil speech is hurled. We try to have conversations and he tries to also but the threads are always ambushed so we can never get into any coherent thought process and conversations about eschatology. Everything ends up being "choppy" and no one really ends up knowing the whole story, (what we believe).

You did not even address the topic of what is spiritual, natural and literal. I can only surmise you did not have an answer for the scripture witness in the NT and that is why you reverted to name calling and judging my motives. Wow! Easy way out since a few others have become expert at name calling (they don't have any substance to talk about) and now you are joining them. Is this a taste of the behaviour of the Church in the end times towards Christians that don't believe as you and others regarding future events? Apparently so. And I can see that very few Christians will be brave enough to speak up. Are the evil attitudes that are coming out now a taste of things to come? People who don't believe your eschatology will be branded as Jew haters? If the comments of 3 or 4 other characters and then your comments are a preview of what people can expect who don't embrace your views, then I don't see your views as bearing good fruit at all. Why do you and others have to bully people into submission and ridicule them into believing as you believe? Rhetorical question. Please don't attempt to answer.

That's it I guess, and I will just be reading all of your eschatological views without responding, else if you can't handle something I say, then unkind accusations of dishonest, sneaky or grouping me with murderers from the past will take place. I guess all I can say is enjoy your unchallenged eschatology and all the high fives you are getting. I won't address you personally again in your eschatology threads.

Just being real, brother.

That's fine, I will discuss. My point is/was that you were clearly deceitful in your intent with, "I'm not talking about Israel...." When you CLEARLY are bringing up the subject for that EXACT purpose. I'll read the 25 paragraphs you sent as soon as I get a chance. And I haven't laid out endless articles, paragraphs, etc. espousing "my eschatological views" like I have noticed you now do over and over and over and over. There's been more of this literal vs symbolic, Phillip Mauro, etc. laid out then you can shake a stick at lately. It's not me pushing, but you.

I do believe some things were fulfilled. I do believe some things are literal & some symbolic. I believe some were partially fulfilled in type of art of dual fulfillment prophecies with still more to come. But you still haven't answered my 2 (Short) simple questions on Romans 11 (clearly not symbolic), or Acts 1?

And my posting Spurgeon just now today was the first premillineal view article I have EVER posted on SI. So I'm not cramming it down your throat. And I try to treat you kindly, resepctfully, graciously, etc. even when you make comments directed at me, are sarcastic (which has been a few times now), etc. Fact is, if you look back at the threads over the last several weeks, it's you accusing, piping off at me (which I acknowledged but didn't return in kind), etc. My point is that I'm not cramming my views down your throat. I feel more like am choking trying to keep you from cramming yours down mine. And when it's bad enough for you to disguise your intent in deceit to try to continue on, I gotta say something.

And as far as The list of hateful murderous supercessationists who advocated genocide down through history, it just is what it is. Send me the nonexistent list of Premillineals who advocated genocide in the name of Christ. If You know a tree by its fruit has any similance to this issue, it ain't looking good for your view. Just saying.

Anyways brother, I'll read all your long extensive articles & answer your questions as soon as you answer my 2 questions on Romans 11 & Acts 1.
God Bless,
Jeff

And please don't compare what I believe to John Haggee. He believes in the falsity of dual covenantal theology. I don't believe that. So, once again, using some unrelated extreme straw man isn't helpful. I don't believe what John Haggee believes. I wrote down & quoted people who do believe as you believe. So their theology led to their statements, & then to their actions or their incitement of others to those ends. I don't believe in the same theology as John Haggee. Not even close.

Like I said, I believe the same way as John Bunyan, Charles Spurgeon, Horatious Bonar, JC Ryle, George Mueller, Robert Murray Mcheyene, Michael Brown, Art Katz, Corrie Ten Boom & her family, Dietrech Bonheiffer, etc., etc., etc.

Jeff, do you believe 2/3 of the state of Israel will be destroyed just before the Messiah comes? Do you believe the Scriptures teach that?

What do historical books put the number at that were destroyed in 70AD?

Julius:

Once again: "Anyways brother, I'll read all your long extensive articles & answer your questions as soon as you answer my 2 questions on Romans 11 & Acts 1."

Jeff, I'm good if you're good.

Let's just move on and get back to Jesus. We are not making any progress and that's ok. It really is. We don't want to destroy each other in the process. Not that we would, but it's just not a conducive environment for brotherly discussion. You love the Lord and I do too and our eschatology does not define us. Neither one of us have all the truth, but Jesus does and we need to just keep looking to Him and loving each other.

Passerby said it in another post, "It's all about sin".

2,000 years ago, Jesus signed the New Covenant in His blood and invites Jew and Gentile alike to come to Him and join Him in His kingdom that "is not of this world". Many have turned to Him and many more will. Praise God for that.

Have a blessed day in Christ.

Wait, I just went to GREAT LENGTHS (& Time) in the other post to pose some questions on Romans 11, Acts 1, "Spirotual vs Natural" Israel, etc. I would appreciate it if (since you repeatedly start these threads & discussion) you would explain the passages I quote in view of your Supercessionism/Amillinealism since I took all the necessary time to post it brother.

by jeffmar1130 on 2016/4/4 9:34:53

Wait, I just went to GREAT LENGTHS (& Time) in the other post to pose some questions on Romans 11, Acts 1, "Spirotual vs Natural" Israel, etc. I would appreciate it if (since you repeatedly start these threads & discussion) you would explain the passages I quote in view of your Supercessionism/Amillinealism since I took all the necessary time to post it brother.

Jeff,

This is where we have a big problem. I am not a supercessionist and am not a "Replacement Theologist". You and I are are speaking different "languages" when it comes to our respective viewpoints on OT prophecy.

Sorry you went to great lengths, but if it is any consolation you won't have to keep doing that.

Truly, our discussions are not bearing any fruit, so I don't see any point in continuing. Plus, the blind sided, wicked ambushes are being allowed to continue so it really is not an environment that is conducive to being a "Berean" in our searching together of the scriptures.

This answer by proudpapa is what I believe and I gave a similar answer a month ago.

by proudpapa on 2016/4/4 9:39:08

Wesley's Notes for Acts 1:6

1:6 Dost thou at this time - At the time thou now speakest of? not many days hence? restore the kingdom to Israel? - They still seemed to dream of an outward, temporal kingdom, in which the Jews should have dominion over all nations. It seems they came in a body, having before concerted the design, to ask when this kingdom would come.

People's Bible Notes for Acts 1:6

Ac 1:6 Wilt thou at this time, etc.? They still held to their old ideas of a worldly restoration of the kingdom of Israel. Their only question was, "Wilt thou restore it 'now'"? After the Holy Spirit was given, this delusion was dismissed, and they understood that Christ's kingdom is not of this world.

You never hear this again in the Scriptures after they received the Holy Spirit. They now understood, as PP said, that His "Kingdom is not of this world".

Actually, you are, you just clearly don't rightly understand those terms by definition. And you STILL didn't answer my questions. Quoting commentators doesn't answer the question brother.,I can send you other commentators not of that theological/eschatological bent string otherwise. I am asking YOU, Julius, who is so sure & who KEEPS re-bringing this issue to the forums/discussion, YOU TELL ME why Jesus didn't correct their ignorance like he always did, but actually reinforced/solidified it? And Romans 11 was AFTER Pentacost brother. Was Paul not filled with the Holy Spirit? He wrote Romans to explain all theological aspects of the Gospel. He explained "spiritual Isreal" in God's eyes in Romans 9. Fair enough. I agree. But in Romans 11 (2 chapters LATER, he is CLEARLY talking about NATURAL/NATIONAL/PHYSICAL Israel). These discussions and the avoidance of it squarely remind me of when I was an Armeniast & would avoid people's direct questions on Romans 7 because I had no answers. Now that I believe in election, we can talk about any passage in the Bible (election/predestination/sovereignty &/or the warnings/exhortations/assurances, etc.). If you don't answer Romans 11 (& explain WHY in Acts 1 Jesus deviated from his normal pattern of correcting the disciples when they "didn't get it" and actually reinforced it - wouldn't that be Christ avoiding correcting ignorance & dishonest/disingenuous?), then stop bringing up your view in a million different ways. And quit quoting all the hardcore Amil pet doctrine guys so people will start eating up all their goodies like hot cakes. Just answer my questions for yourself

Jeff, I don't mind continuing, but I am worn down by all of the attacks and mis-characterizations. We can continue via email if you like. If I continue in SI, the vicious and rude interruptions will continue. I prefer peaceful discussions, don't you?

It's interesting cause I listened to a full debate a Ron Preston (a known Preterist apologist) & Michael Brown (clearly Pre-Mil) & Preston did the same thing. He avoided answering questions on Romans 11 like he never even heard them & moved on to building his case with "symbolic" scriptures. Can any Preterists/Amilinealists/Supercessionists please answer the question of Romans 11 & give a real answer on Acts 1 & why Christ apparently (in their view) intentionally fortified the disciples ignorance in deceit?

I do, & I am not attcking you brother (never have). We can discuss however you like. You started these discussions publicly in the forums so I was/am proceeding in the parameters you set up. Email me if you like. Pretty sure my address is in the file. But please, in the email: answer my questions on Romans 11 & Acts 1.
God Bless,
Jeff

You will notice that I did not start all these discussions. Many have been started by others and I joined in as a participant. As an example, 2 of 3 that are going right now, I did not start. I am just saying that this is not a good environment to discuss. The attacks are giving the wider audience an incorrect view of things.

God bless you, too.

That's cool. Just email me your explanation of Romans 11 in context. And why YOU think Jesus didn't correct the disciples in Acts 1, but further deceived them. And FYI - I'm not loaded with cash or anything, but if you don't have the $ to buy the book, "When a Jew Rules the World" & would read it, I would send it to you. I think some of the info in there is so unknown to most of the church (was to me - I just always mentally rolled everything over on the Roman Catholic Church, but that's not the whole story/truth/history) & so shocking (historical facts, not opinions or vague scriptures where it's 50/50 on the interp) that I believe this needs to be read.
In Christ,
Jeff

TMK, you are most welcome to participate in the conversation. Any loving contributions (from anyone) are appreciated even if they are divergent views.

I don't disagree that natural believing Israel + grafted in gentile believers = Eternal Israel above! 😊 But that wouldn't explain away the final in gathering of Natural Israel who are hardened for a time & get regrafted in by sovereign election at the end. We can't pull verse 25 out from the context of verses 1, 11-24, 28-32, etc.

And also, why do you TMK think that Jesus didn't correct the disciples in Acts 1:6-7 if there was to be no restoration of the kingdom to Israel ever at all? Was Jesus just too busy to answer/correct them? Did he want them to intentionally stay confused? Had he changed His normal course of action of always previously correcting them so they would remember & understand later what He meant? And why did He actually solidify such ignorance by saying the times and seasons are not for them to know, but only by His Father? Intentional misleading disingenuousness?

And of course TMK you are welcome to discuss brother! 😉

by jeffmar1130 on 2016/4/4 12:25:43

I don't disagree that natural believing Israel + grafted in gentile believers = Eternal Israel above! 😊 But that wouldn't explain away the final in gathering of Natural Israel who are hardened for a time & get regrafted in by sovereign election at the end. We can't pull verse 25 out from the context of verses 1, 11-24, 28-32, etc.

Ahh, good.

What we agree on:

1. We both believe in Eternal Israel as you put it, which I agree because Eternal Israel has to be a spiritual kingdom. Anything eternal is spiritual. You and I are part of a spiritual kingdom, now (right?).

2. And we probably both agree that many natural Israelites (Paul, Peter, 1st century church and Jews throughout the centuries) have been graffed back into the olive tree and more yet, will be graffed back in.

3. And we both agree that any country on earth has the right to defend itself, that includes Israel.

4. And we both agree that all the Arab nations are being manipulated by Satan to come against natural Israel. And that he is manipulating the world at large to stand against them. These are facts, this is what we see happening. Why God is allowing this we may have a disagreement on because it goes to our beliefs in the endtimes.

So, our only disagreement is what happens in the end times and whether Jesus will set up a physical kingdom on earth.

And, I don't believe this is a barrier to fellowship in Christ and we probably won't make much headway on this. Just being realistic since you see OT prophecies as having a fulfillment in another dispensation yet to come than and I don't.

Would you agree with everything I have listed? I don't want to put words in your mouth, just trying to encapsulate our conversation.

[by TMK on 2016/4/4 12:48:16

It seems that the question must have been answered on Pentecost because the disciples thereafter did not talk about re-establishment of an earthly kingdom. Jesus himself told Pilate that his kingdom was not of this world. At the time is his ascension the disciples still did not understand this.

If a re-establishment of an earthly kingdom was known about by Paul, he would have preached about it and not received all the persecution he received by the Judaizers who still believed the Messiah had not come and when He does come He will establish His physical kingdom on earth. Paul received no end to persecution about this.

TMK, that is different. That text cin John cearly says that Jesus says "if..." & then says "they thought this meant Jesus was saying He would not die....but Jesus never said this."

Not the case in Acts 1 AT ALL (nor did Luke say, "they thought this meant that Israel would have restoration but Jesus didn't say this..."). In other words in John, God made sure the whole of the passage was clear. In Acts 1, not the case at all. Apples and oranges.

Wait, Jesus didn't answer them, but it was clear on Pentacost that the clear teaching concerning natural Israel coming to Him after a partial hardening in Romans 11? Say what? This is scriptural Twister gymnastics. When was Romans written? Around 60 AD. So Paul was speaking about the "partial hardening" of Israel for just the next 10 years & the fullness of the Gentile's came in already at that point? No way. In fact, very little of natural Israel came into the kingdom between 60-70AD (they stayed hard as a rock overall), but many Gentile's came in. BUT, they (Natural Israel) are starting to come in mass NOW before Christ's REAL second Coming, the day of the Lord. And Gentile's are still coming in to at this point. It's actually not that difficult & doesn't require Phillip Mauro or Don Preston to understand & follow it.

Not true Julius.

Paul preached that Christ WAS THEIR MESAIAH & was coming again, and that they crucified him, which is why he received such persecution. And He preached that He was coming again & that they should repent, as do I.

I agree with "most" of what you said, but your using Paul, Peter as "being grafted back in" I don't think is contextually accurate to what it's talking about. If it's an eternal spiritual kingdom that started at Calvary, Peter & Paul weren't re-grafted in after Gentile's (like Romans 11 speaks of futuristic ally), because those were the first grafted in at all post resurrection.

Anyways, I'm not saying we can't fellowship. Never have. I'm saying people of your view KEEP BRINGING THIS AROUND & then get bent & refuse to answer questions when someone finally takes the substantial time to discuss it line by line in a loving, kind, non-attacking manner (not saying everyone has done this, but I have certainly been aware of this & tried to. When it has been super contentious & hateful, ugly comments are getting thrown around, I have tried to stay TOTALLY out of it as much as possible - I hope that's been noticed?).

I would again really appreciate your thoughts after having read the book I recommended. Even if it doesn't change your eschatological timeline, it will give you food for thought I'LL PRETTY MUCH GUARANTEE you weren't aware of (I sure wasn't).

I have a job, it's my wife's birthday, I have work to do, & my wife needs to go to the OB-GYN & may be having our 7th baby here soon. I can't spend any more time on this right now everyone. I'm sorry. I am not ashamed/scared to promote Joel's book, "When a Jew Rules the World" though because I believe it has beneficial historical information regardless of your end times eschatological framework/belief.
May God Bless you all!
Jeff

Paul preached many things and another thing he preached was that being a JEW in the flesh does not give you standing and righteousness in the kingdom of God. That they must embrace the New Covenant and the "Better Country" which is above and that earthly countries do not matter any more.

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a BETTER COUNTRY, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

They did not like that. They wanted to hold onto this notion of a physical kingdom on earth and persecuted Paul because he preached about a spiritual kingdom and that a physical kingdom no longer had any relevance.

Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

The people that died in faith in the OT saw the spiritual promises that you say are physical. Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Zechariah, all saw a spiritual kingdom and realized they were "strangers and pilgrims on earth."

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Now read the rest:

Heb 11:14 "For they that say such things declare plainly that THEY SEEK A COUNTRY" - What country?

Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. (in other words, there is no opportunity)

Heb 11:16 But now THEY DESIRE A BETTER COUNTRY, that is, an HEAVENLY: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. (Jerusalem above).

They saw afar off a heavenly city...the spiritual kingdom of God. God gave them revelation of many things. Isaiah saw a spiritual redeemer coming to save their people from their sins not their physical enemies. Ezekiel-new heart and new spirit. Micah, Jeremiah, Zechariah were all given revelation of the spiritual kingdom not a natural kingdom.

We have no "city" on earth -

Heb 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Heb 13:14 FOR HERE (on earth) HAVE WE NO CONTINUIING CITY, but we seek one to come.

by Jeff
I have a job, it's my wife's birthday, I have work to do, & my wife needs to go to the OB-GYN & may be having our 7th baby here soon. I can't spend any more time on this right now everyone. I'm sorry. I am not ashamed/scared to promote Joel's book, "When a Jew Rules the World" though because I believe it has beneficial historical information regardless of your end times eschatological framework/belief.
May God Bless you all!
Jeff

Go, go, what are you doing here? ;-)

I will buy and read that book. I promise.

God bless and happy birthday to your wife.

I don't disagree with your post Julius (at least the first part mostly), but now Gentile's don't like the fact that God is going to restore them by SAVING THEM ALL BY HIS RIGHTEOUS RIGHT HAND, & giving them a place among the nations as Christ rules & reins from Jerusalem (still to come). Orthodox Jews are lost Jews. We don't disagree on that. BUT GOD, is going to save them in a way that astounds the whole earth when they are trusting in their security, surrounded on every side, humbled & desecrated in something more widespread & massive than the holocaust (they don't like that hearing that either, so know I'm not cowering to orthodox Jewish opinion of the Gospel), but that ultimately when it is HOPELESS for them, their Messiah (who was all along there but they were hardened for the most part, as far as their numbers, against Him), they will look on Him whom they pierced & be saved, when the fullness of the Gentile's has come in!

I am not exalting lost Jews who reject God. I am exalting God's Soveriegn election & praying & watching for the day these things happens and HE HIMSLEF comes & destroys Israel's enemies, saves ALL ISREAL, & I can rejoice with them & see my King who died to save me!

by jeffmar1130 on 2016/4/4 15:02:22

I don't disagree with your post Julius (at least the first part mostly), but now Gentile's don't like the fact that God is going to restore them by SAVING THEM ALL BY HIS RIGHTEOUS RIGHT HAND, & giving them a place among the nations as Christ rules & reins from Jerusalem (still to come).

I don't know what "Gentiles don't like it", but God was and is always about restoring men to Himself not a piece of dirt on earth. And He is ruling and reigning as He sits at the right hand of God, even now. He is ruling and reigning in His Church.

Orthodox Jews are lost Jews. We don't disagree on that. BUT GOD, is going to save them in a way that astounds the whole earth when they are trusting in their security, surrounded on every side, humbled & desecrated in something more widespread & massive than the holocaust (they don't like that hearing that either, so know I'm not cowering to orthodox Jewish opinion of the Gospel), but that ultimately when it is HOPELESS for them, their Messiah (who was all along there but they were hardened for the most part, as far as their numbers, against Him), they will look on Him whom they pierced & be saved, when the fullness of the Gentile's has come in!

I think Jesus did save them in an astounding and totally unexpected way, already. People look upon him with spiritual eyes like you and I did. How will He provide salvation again? It is and always will be by faith in the shed blood of Christ. The work and the word of the Cross.

Eph_1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened..."

Jesus is talking about spiritual eyes, understanding here.

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Jesus is now done with His program of salvation.

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOR EVER, sat down on the right hand of God;

Christ came to restore them to Himself and the Father not to earthly dirt. He will restore them to a "Better Country", an heavenly one", not an earthly one.

Great talking with you.

Good questions, TMK.

As far as "is that fair?" Have you not read Romans 7 concerning election?

As far as %, I'm not pretending to have all the answers, but I would assume anyone from Israel lineage would be included? I don't have all the answers.

Again, where He kept them in the dark for a season, just like the passage you mention now, the context IS CLEAR that He was doing JUST THAT (& it says it), but in Acts 1, it says/shows no such thing, & in fact Jesus says something after that would solidify their ignorance all the more? Wouldn't that be Christ being deceptive if that were true?

You said "Jews don't/didn't like it" when Paul told them they were lost without Christ. I agree. And many "Gentiles" now in the flesh don't like it when you share Romans 11 & that Christ is going to Soveriegnty save Israel again at the end of the age by Soveriegn election. Luther didn't like it. Calvin didn't like it. Augustin didn't like it. Hitler didn't like it. Mohammed didn't like it. Phillip Mauro didn't like it. Etc., etc.

The only important thing about "the dirt" there is if Jesus really is returning with His feet on the mount of olives & ruling & reining from that "dirt". That makes not the "dirt" important (like some weird RCC sacred dirt weirdness), but the place where Christ is going to return & rule & rein from special. Wherever Christ is & whatever is in his plan, is special.

But that's fine, explain away plain texts of scripture in Romans 11 & elsewhere to accommodate your doctrines. I'm not mad at you. But just let me know what you think of the book we talked about. God Bless!

Then is election "favoritism"?

Cause you are clearly not able to distinguish between election spoken of in Romans 7 & in Romans 11 ("gifts & callings of God are irrevocable") & the passages in context about God showing no partiality. Romans 2:11 & Acts 10:34. This "partiality" in context means no Jews (or anyone) who reject Christ until they die will receive salvation. But that doesn't trump election & Sovereign Grace. Romans 7 & Romans 11 are clear God saves who He wants to save for His purposes & His calling & gifts are irrevocable. So not showing partiality doesn't exempt election or cause God not to keep all His promises. Jews who die in unbelief will suffer same fate as you/I would have if we died in our unbelief. Don't confuse/mix the two

Jeff, I don't know what you mean by "sovereignly save". How is that different from a Jew or Gentile getting saved, today? There is only one plan of salvation, isn't there? It's not that I don't like it, I don't see the scripture witness.

I think you are saying that God will bring the dispersed as a body again, after the day that gospel salvation is ended, to Palestine ‘in unbelief'; and will there convert the entire nation, not by faith, but by the physical sight of Jesus Christ standing on the Mount of Olives!

I'm not trying to "explain away texts". Who would purposely do that? Even if I thought the same of you, I wouldn't be so rude as to accuse you of it.

You do know that the prophets used figurative speech to give deeper, spiritual meanings. Olive tree = Israel, Wild Olive - Gentiles, Two olive trees in Revelation = Jew and Gentile, Mount of Olives =

More prophetic imagery and role of the Mount of Olives and interpretation of Zech 14. Let me just say, I am in agreement with Kevin Daly, below about the Mount of Olives. A good read if you are so inclined.
http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/the-feast-of-tabernacles-its-origins-and-prophetic-significance/

Lol. Sorry. I'm not a "Calvinist", but I can't deny the Biblical truth of election. I can't tear all the pages out of my Bible on election (Like the whole chapter of Romans 7) anymore than I can tear out Romans 11.
God Bless,
Jeff

I will definitely read Reggies article as soon as I have time (& quiet to focus). I have always liked what I have read of his, but I generally REALLY have to have out my Bible & total quiet to stay following (he can move fast & through a lot of scriptures at times). I don't have the worlds best attention span admittedly. 😊
Thanks!
Jeff

by Julius21 on 2016/4/4 17:58:02

Jeff, I don't know what you mean by "sovereignly save". How is that different from a Jew or Gentile getting saved, today? There is only one plan of salvation, isn't there? It's not that I don't like it, I don't see the scripture witness.

I think you are saying that God will bring the dispersed as a body again, after the day that gospel salvation is ended, to Palestine ‘in unbelief'; and will there convert the entire nation, not by faith, but by the physical sight of Jesus Christ standing on the Mount of Olives!

I'm not trying to "explain away texts". Who would purposely do that? Even if I thought the same of you, I wouldn't be so rude as to accuse you of it.

You do know that the prophets used figurative speech to give deeper, spiritual meanings. Olive tree = Israel, Wild Olive - Gentiles, Two olive trees in Revelation = Jew and Gentile, Mount of Olives =

More prophetic imagery and role of the Mount of Olives and interpretation of Zech 14. Let me just say, I am in agreement with Kevin Daly, below about the Mount of Olives. A good read if you are so inclined.
http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/the-feast-of-tabernacles-its-origins-and-prophetic-significance/

Hey Jeff,

Got a follow-up question to my post above where you are talking about Jesus returning physically and the Jews "looking upon Him" (you say this refers to physical eyes). What is it about Jesus physically that will make all the Jews repent? If it is the wounds in His hands and feet then you do know that a lot of men around the world during Easter hang themselves on crosses and literally pierce their hands and feet. How will the Jews know this is Jesus their Messiah? Why will they turn to Him? Will they experience an internal operation of the Spirit? A spiritual circumcising?

Why are they not required to have faith in the preaching of the Gospel like all other men? How do Gentiles make them jealous of the Gospel and then they get to see Jesus face to face? Isn't that reserved for either damnation of men or glorification with Jesus?

I just don't know why they get to see with their physical eyes and not their spiritual eyes.

Also, they did reject Him the first time with their physical eyes.

So, I was wondering what it is the second time around that will cause the Jews to receive Him? Plus, isn't salvation by faith and faith is the substance of things hoped for and evidence of things NOT SEEN?

by a-servant on 2016/4/4 21:20:00

Hi Julius: "So, I was wondering what it is the second time around that will cause the Jews to receive Him? Plus, isn't salvation by faith and faith is the substance of things hoped for and evidence of things NOT SEEN?"

Good question, but why not for once go to the source and realize who it is that says " And I will pour...."

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

If God says He will pour the spirit of grace on someone, what are you concerned about? Why does He need your acceptance to do anything just as He said He would?

a-servant,

Didn't God pour out His Spirit upon the house of David in the book of Acts? If He did not do that, then what happened in Acts 2? Acts is a perfect fulfillment of Zech 12:10.

Peter attests to what Joel says and confirms that they are in the LAST DAYS and that the Holy Spirit being poured out is that which was spoken by Joel. Peter is explaining to the Jews what is actually happening to them.

Act 2:16 But THIS IS THAT WHICH WAS SPOKEN by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the **LAST DAYS**, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
.
.
.
Peter is addressing the House of David. He says, "Ye men of Israel"

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

They were pricked in their heart and God gave them grace and supplication to repent. They "looked" upon the one that was pierced. God opened up their spiritual eyes to recognize JESUS CHRIST was their MESSIAH.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

To create a whole other dispensation outside of the Church Age when God poured out His Spirit on the House of David is not the plain and simple reading of Scripture by any means. It is the creation of fables and the people that get saved in this future generation, outside of the Church age, don't even need faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, the good news that He died for our sins? They somehow will see a man with holes in his hand and feet and will believe? That did not happen the first time!

The Jews wanted a sign that they "may see and believe". And they were speaking in the physical sense of seeing. Jesus says, "Hey, you have seen me and believe not."

John 6:36 But I said unto you, THAT YE ALSO HAVE SEEN ME, AND BELIEVE NOT.

They reject the ONE that they saw with their physical eyes!

The Cross and a wounded Messiah who did not stand up for Himself or defend Himself against Israel's enemies (Rome) was a scandal to the Jew, and still is. They want a powerful deliverer FROM MAN, not a Deliverer FROM SIN.

Jesus tells His disciples not to fight flesh and blood because His Kingdom is not of this world. Are we now to believe that the Messiah is going to go against what He has told His disciples and come down to earth and destroy Israel's physical enemies (flesh and blood) and set up an earthly kingdom when He has told millions through the last 2,000 years that their battle is not against flesh and blood and His kingdom is not of this world? I'm just thinking that millions of Jews could have been spared horrible things through the centuries if He just came the first time showed His glory and power and set up His kingdom on earth.

But, I will go along with you a little more...Sure, if God comes to earth in glory and shows off His power then everyone on earth will believe not just the Jew. If seeing Him in His glory and power is not enough to save someone, then I don't know what is. But, why would Christ do this? Unfortunately, this is not how Jesus chooses to operate. When He comes, it is over and that is the plain reading of scripture. His plan for Israel right now is to repent and turn to Jesus Christ, just like what happened in the book of Acts. God's plan has not changed and will not change. He poured out the Spirit of Grace and Supplication in the first century and He has been doing that ever since to all who turn to Him in faith and look upon the Crucified One as their Savior.

Jesus does not operate by being flashy and convincing men of His divinity by showing them His incredible power. Jesus tests our hearts and wants to know if we truly do love Him and are willing to bear His cross, daily. He wants us to follow and love Him by faith. The Jews in the 1st century "looked upon Him who was pierced" and were saved and the Jewish people in subsequent centuries did the same thing. All the Jews in Messiah around the world today, also "looked upon Him" with their spiritual eyes and were saved.

Jesus Christ is coming again in glory to judge the living and the dead.

That's one weird (seemingly sarcastic) question Julius (the whole people crucifying themselves as imposters on Easter thing)? Really?

Look, you & I hardened our heart against Christ initially right? I did. I didn't repent & put my full faith & trust in Christ & get born again the first time I ever heard of him. But that's why I fully believe in election & irrefutable grace (that's "like a hound from heaven out of Romans 7 tracking me down" as John Piper once said). I don't have it all figured out. And I still hold it somewhat loosely. I don't know exactly what it all "looks like". Fact is, NOONE but the Lord does (as far as every aspect, manifestation, how it plays out, etc.). Prophecy is easier to see & explain as it actually finally passes you & you turn and see it in the rear-view, than way off in the distance (we see through a glass dimly, in part).

So I reserve the right to be wrong about any of the specifics. But Romans 11 is pretty clear to me as a general blueprint for something concerning natural Israel coming in mass at the end. I just was getting really tired frankly of the "Phillip Mauro-A thon" & the condescending, straw men, so sure of themselves arguments day after day after day after day, so wanted to share the way I see/interpret the scriptures. And I'm in pretty good company when I looked into it. And a lot of the other company for your view is REALLY bad company with really rotten fruit.

A lot of that goes on during Easter, around the world.

By the way, what do non-religious Jews know about a Messiah? A lot of people today are believing and seriously looking for super intelligent alien life.

Our five senses are deceiving and that is another reason that God gave us the witness of His Spirit.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

What is it about Jesus appearing physically that non-religious, atheistic, transcendental, Kabbala observing, totally lost Jews will find captivating? How will they be born of the Spirit, when Jesus is right in front of them? Granted, they are no different in that respect than a lost Gentile. Non-religious people today are into so many different satanic things. How will Jesus convince Jewish people that He is God?

What if a Gentile is also convinced? Will they be saved?

A lot of people today have Jewish blood in them and don't know it by the way.

How about some scriptures, doc?

by docs on 2016/4/5 0:37:02

John 18:36 - NASB

36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

It won't matter what I share with you bro because you recently heartily endorsed the view that we are already and presently living in the new heavens and new earth. That view is a contradiction in itself of your view that the kingdom Jesus spoke of is spiritual ONLY because if we are living now in the new heavens and earth which are supposed to be spiritual realities then why are we still surrounded by a physical earthly existence.

Do you deny we are "seated with Christ in heavenly places". "New Heavens" is figurative speech to communicate a spiritual reality to us. Why do we need physical new heavens. In eternal life, heavens aren't physical, they are spiritual.

When a Christian is born-again everything "on earth", figuratively speaking is new. New way of living, new way of thinking, new way of dealing with everything in life. Everything is now done all by the Life of Christ.

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

We are experiencing aspects of eternal life, now on earth? Peace with God, union with Christ, freedom to not sin, grace to overcome, power over Satan and the flesh, ruling and reigning with Christ over the powers of darkness, having all the power of heaven at our disposal through prayer and fasting, and just asking Jesus, etc, etc?

You think "new heavens and new earth" are physical, I get it.

I do see now what you and others that believe in this eschatology are doing, now. It took me awhile, but now I understand. You are taking words the Holy Spirit meant as figurative to reveal a spiritual truth/reality and you are making them literal. You are missing completely the spiritual realities that should be in your life that the Bible is trying to communicate to you.

This is why you and others use the word literal. You want to convince us that the prophetic figurative speech the Holy Spirit is using in the OT to teach spiritual realities in the NT is literal and not figurative. But, you will not be consistent with it because if you were, then all the figurative words/phrases in the OT, made literal would be ridiculous. You are picking and choosing the figurative phrases that should be literal, yet you follow no hermeneutical rules or consistency about it or just plain common sense.

When is prophetic figurative speech, figurative and when is it literal? Whenever you say it is.

Ok, so we have been going all day and not getting anywhere. That is because we really are speaking two languages.

And what is the end of the matter? We are not in sync in just basic Bible hermeneutics.

We are surrounded by a "cloud of witnesses". Is it a real cloud?

Jesus is coming on the "clouds", are they real clouds?

Jesus said, "Take eat, this is my body". What are we eating?

The Holy Spirit used figurative language all through the OT to reveal spiritual realities. Men are earthbound and God used the things we are familiar with to communicate and explain spiritual truths to us.

Jesus continued this when He was on earth.
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

But the Bible interprets much of itself for one who has the Holy Spirit (discernment) so we don't have to read into it meanings that don't exist.

You can't force a square block into a circle so I guess we should pray for each other for a time and maybe come back to this later to see if the Lord has given each of us more light on our respective positions. Sound good? It does to me.

God bless.

a-servant, whole families got saved in Acts, the Fountain is Jesus Christ.

Time to go, other things to talk about.

May the Lord help us all.

David,
I hope I haven't been perceived as coming across in that way in these discussions? If I have, it's certainly not my heart. I may have seemed defensive, but the view that Israel still has a prophetic calling in the last days fulfillment seemed to be getting so slammed in the forums IMHO that I felt it was time to speak up for a different view. Hopefully I didn't come across as argumentive, unloving, or arrogant? And yeah, Joel seems to be a real genuine brother. And also, in fact, the first time I watched the new Jim Bakker show I had some reservations & I know what he did in the past (& I don't agree with him on everything I would bet), but when I put personal "appearance/preference" judgementalness/criticalness out of my heart, I found him to be repentant, humble, broken, & with a desire to see people serve God & prepare their hearts & lives based on the vision God gave Him. I have realized in recent days that sometimes we can even have "the gift of discernment" & not realize we are actually internally at times using that as an excuse to "unrighteousness judgement", speculation, having a critical spirit, etc. & not be walking in what 1 Cor 13 says love actually looks like. Humbling. Anyways, I'm not fully there where I want to be, but I would hope those that know me best would say they can see the growth in my life in recent years in these areas. May I/we all continue to grow from glory to glory in Christ by going low & being humble, gracious, & loving (while still not compromising truth). You have my email. PLease Keep in touch & send me anything you want & send me anything good from Reggie Kelley concerning Israel in the Last Days.
May God Richly Bless you in all things,
Jeff

I do think it matters. If there's prophecy in the Word of God, it's written throughout the OT Prophets & discussed in Romans 11, Acts 1, Revolation, etc. to say "why difference does it make?" Seems kinda obvious to me?

Is it "the most important thing"? No. Is it "all that matters"? No. But to say "what difference does it make?" When God took the time to put it in His Word? The verse you laid out in Hebrews actually in context talks about not again laying foundations of milk (& names them) on to "meat". Let's not add to the Word of God by our assumptions. That verse actually doesn't nullify my whole point, but strengthens it.

You may not care about the Issue of Israel & that's fine I guess, but God obviously does" ("ALL scripture is spirit breathed/inspired & is useful for teaching, correcting, reproving, rebuking & training in righteousness"). Again, prophecy isn't "the only thing" or "the most important thing", but it's not "nothing important" based on what any man says, but what God says in His Word.

And I'm not out "preaching the Gospel of Israel" day to day but the Gospel to every creature. But I didn't start this OP & I'm just replying. To say "this causes division where satan can work". I agree! But I think if you study church history thoroughly you will find that it's actually the doctrine that "Israel is no more important at all" that satan has used best to bring forth his fruit. One in nullifying the Word of God, 2 in saying parts of the Word of God don't matter, 3 in saying God doesn't keep His promises/Word, 4 in saying that we can "spiritualize" any text we want at will out of context to suit our favorite theological paradigm. No small matters in my book. "Let God be true & every man a liar" is what my Bible says.

Also, if you look at the historical fruits of both views, I think it's evident that it at THE VERY LEAST "CAN matter" tremendously. Likewise, I believe it will matter in the days ahead. Anyways, not trying to be divisive, just honest & faithful to the best of my ability.
God Bless,
Jeff

Post pulled.

Oh I agree brother!
Good words. My salvation is not dependent on Israel. Never said that nor do I believe anything like that. I was just responding/replying to the things you said in your first post reply. No worries brother. 😊 No offense intended nor taken!
God Bless!
Jeff

Hey brothers,

On another subject:
The patterns/shadows God gave on earth reveal the patterns and spiritual realities in heaven and we are seated with Him in heavenly places.

Heb_8:5 Who serve unto the example and SHADOW of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

So, God showed the prophets patterns/vision to build something on earth, but they had a greater significance as they were shadows of things to come.

For instance, there was a physical Tabernacle of David in the OT and it was a shadow of spiritual realities concerning the rebuilding of the "Tabernacle of David as was spoken in Acts 15, but in this respect it is His Church. Why does God liken the Church to the Tabernacle of David and not the Tabernacle of Moses? At one time the Tabernacle of Moses actually existed during the same time as the Tabernacle of David.

The Tabernacle of Moses also contained patterns/shadows of heavenly things, but why the Tabernacle of David mentioned in Acts 15 and not the Tabernacle of Moses?

Here is the context:

Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Acts 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.