Who is Mystery Babylon?

Revelation 17:4-5

The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, and having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality, and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, "BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MITHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMONATIONS OF THE EARTH."

Who exactly is John talking about here. This question came up and one of the threads on the end times. To be honest I do not know. I listen to Revelation as part of my Bible listening program. But there's a lot about the book that is a mystery. No pun intended.

Like to see some fruitful discussion in terms of who mystery Babylon is. I understand that people have different views about things. I ask that the discussion be reasonable. And maybe together the Holy Spirit might give us revelation as to what this text means. Again no pun intended.

My intention is not to start an argument. But honestly, I would like to know who John is talking about here. All throughout my walk with Christ I've heard differing interpretations rsgarding this passage. But Wonder, what is the Holy Spirit really saying.

Hope we can be Berean and find out the answer.

Here is my contribution, Bear and this is what I see in the Scriptures.

The False Bride - is Satan's counterfeit of the True Bride. It is the corrupt counterfeit church bethrothed to Satan and devoted to his system (the world) while the true Bride is bethrothed to Christ and loyal to the Kingdom of God. Different spirit source, different kingdom, one is earthly, fleshly the other is heavenly, spiritual. One operates by the Holy Spirit motivated by the the love of God and humility the other by the powers of darkness, selfishness and pride.

A "pure woman" represents a pure Church, a corrupt woman represents a corrupt Church. The woman in white is Christ’s bride, the true Church. But Revelation 17:1, 15-16 and 19:2 calls this second woman a "WHORE” or "HARLOT”, a fallen Church teaching false doctrines. And she persecutes and kills the true saints of God. "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus". (17:6)

Satan is the "bridegroom" of his church which by extension contains everything that is not of Christ on earth - all false religions make up his "church", anything not deriving it's nature and character from Christ is deriving their nature and character from Satan. Either, or...Scripture reveals there are always and only two parallels between the true and the false, life and death, good and evil, righteousness and unrighteousness, Christ and Satan, true saints and antichrist(s).

I say antichrists because you also have many "christ-ones" on earth, the true saints of God filled with the Holy Spirit who make up the Bride and many antichrist-ones filled with "the evil spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience", that make up the False Bride.

This is only a high level summary. Of course you know the scriptures contain a lot more detail.

I used to think it was just the Papacy, but now I see that it is everything in Satan's kingdom.

Papacy is only part of Satan's kingdom (granted a large part and they are very rich as scripture alludes to). Satan chiefly uses them to control the rest of his domain in many respects but not all respects. Of course the Papacy is always jockeying for more control and influence in the world system. I think seven hills does refer to them and they are "on many waters", with religious "ambassadors" in every country except maybe Iran and N. Korea. But, there is a much wider picture of Satan's false Church as it contains all religions that were spawned by him. They are all members of the false church, bride. Basically, the world, Satan's system and all those who are loyal to his system. Most don't know it and that is why we have to preach the gospel to "open the eyes of the them which are blind".

Mystery Babylon fights wars in the flesh using carnal weapons, the Church fights in the spirit using spiritual weapons, of course.

I agree with Booye on this:

What is the Prostitute Babylon? The personification of human idolatry: WorldThink.

A. Worshipping and centering life around anything other than God and his kingdom.

All the idolatry humanity has ever produced in one Civil/Religious Antichrist System.

Idolatry is centering your life on anything other than God and His Kingdom (Matt.6:33).

It is a replacement God, an Anti-Christ.
A. It is what the Devil tempted Jesus

"City" is figurative language for Satan's worldwide religious system of IDOLATRY and REBELLION against God. Setting up false saviors (false Christs) in every religion.

This "City" is the one system before which all kings, dictators, and nations have been forced to bow down throughout history, that is, the "Babylonian/Satanic" religion of idolatry.

Satan wants us to get our eyes on flesh and blood and think our battle is with a particular religious organization on earth, but though the RCC is a major religious organization that has persecuted and slain the saints of God, the "CITY" encompasses all of Satan's idolatrous religious systems.

Figurative language is very important because it is God's shorthand way of revealing spiritual realities.

For instance, the Book of Revelation uses the word "waters" and "sea" as figurative language and if you search you will find out what this refers to.

17:15 And he saith unto me, THE WATER WHICH THOU SAWEST, where the whore sitteth, ARE peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Then the angel explains to John the meaning of the water on which the woman (whore) is sitting: It is the peoples of the earth. Peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages designate all humanity in the book of Revelation. As in the saying, "sea of humanity"

Just keep in mind that the Holy Spirit is trying to reveal spiritual realities through the writers of the Scriptures...things not seen, rather than things that are seen. But Satan is convincing many that these things pertain to what is seen, thus Christians think the battle is between this false organization or that one, or this wicked nation or that one.

Thus, people create beliefs from one scripture that is no where else to be found in the Bible.
A good example of this is the "millenium". It is mentioned only once, in Rev 20:1-6
Figurative speech - God's shorthand to reveal something.

Revelation means an "uncovering" or "unveiling". The Book of Revelation is meant to reveal spiritual realities not conceal them.

Revelation employs apocalyptic language with highly symbolic and figurative language.

People today are unfamiliar with apocalyptic language which was popular from 200 BC to 200 AD and the early church understood it and used it during times of persecution to describe good and evil. Remember, John was exiled to the Isle of Patmos during a time of great persecution. Today, most people are prone to take things literally not recognizing the figurative use of language in the Bible.

These things that John was talking about were to "shortly come to pass".

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Towards the end, John says, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND" - Rev 22:10

In these two cases, "shortly come to pass" and "for the time is at hand", John is not speaking figuratively. This is straight talk now, and not symbolic language. Remember, he was writing the book to comfort the Christians to whom this letter would be sent to during this time of great persecution.

John announces at the beginning and then again at the end just so everyone would know for sure.

"Shortly come to pass..." Rev 1:1,3
"For the time is at hand... "Re 22:6,10

The literalist here, should agree. For some reason that is not the case.

This is not figurative language for a couple of thousand years, later. That would not be very comforting to the Christians of John's time.

Some think Bablyon back then was Jerusalem and the Beast that supported the Whore was Rome and although that might be very applicable for that time (in John's mind), there are still spiritual realities that do pertain to our time and every time in between the 1st century church and now. Just as the false religious system killed Jesus and many saints and employed Rome to carry out their dirty work, that same modus operandi has taken place through the centuries. As the Whore is still today, religious idolatry (Satan's "city", "Kingdom") and the beast is the political/military world that is married to the false religious system. Hence, the religious system rides the beast. Always has and always will since they are both Satanic systems, belonging to the same kingdom. The false religious system has used political and military powers through the centuries to persecute the saints of God.

The purpose of Revelation was to reveal that God was bringing judgment on Rome and Jerusalem for having rejected God and persecuting His people culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem and even Rome ceased to be a world power, later. And yet, the book of Revelation is still applicable in every century, till the end. Because this same judgment has taken place in different ways on the Satanic kingdom. I remember when Richard Wurmbrand was imprisoned for his faith and great persecution took place in Romania. Eventually, the Lord judged that ruler and the political system and that kingdom (principality) were brought down.

Revelation is a book of warning to saints then and now and in between to remain faithful and it is a book of comfort, then, now and in between, and it is still applicable generally speaking in the battle between God and Satan and the true Church and the False Church. There are still things to come to pass. It is a panoramic view of the battle between light and darkness, Kingdom vs kingdom, righteousness and unrighteousness. There is still a few more things to be fulfilled:

The final and ultimate defeat of Satan - Rev 20:7-10
The final judgment - Rev 20:11-15
The eternal destiny of the redeemed saints of God - Rev 21:1-22:5

It is really important to look at these things with spiritual eyes and not with your physical eyes and when you see these things, it really helps you to understand where the true battle is taking place and then you will not "entangle yourself in the affairs of this life".

"Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier." 2 Tim 2:3

May the Lord help us all to see.

Food for thought...

The Word says an "angel come down from Heaven" destroys "Babylon the Great".

Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

That great "City" is the habitation of the powers of darkness.

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of DEVILS, and the hold of EVERY FOUL SPIRIT, and a cage of every UNCLEAN and HATEFUL BIRD.

God hath avenged His people by destroying Satan's kingdom.
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

This mighty angel is not the Anti-Christ.
Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

elect,

God in His sovereignty will put it into the hearts of the world leaders to give up their kingdoms to the religious beast, in order "to execute God's purpose by having a common purpose, until the words of God should be fulfilled"

"FOR GOD HATH PUT IN THEIR HEARTS TO FULFIL HIS WILL AND TO AGREE TO GIVE THEIR KINGDOM UNTO THE BEAST UNTIL THE WORDS OF GOD SHALL BE FULFILLED." (Rev 17:17).

God can use Satan, religion and human government for His purposes, for ultimately everything serves the ultimate purposes of God.

Nah 3:1 Woe to the bloody city! it is all full of lies and robbery; the prey departeth not;
Nah 3:2 The noise of a whip, and the noise of the rattling of the wheels, and of the pransing horses, and of the jumping chariots.
Nah 3:3 The horseman lifteth up both the bright sword and the glittering spear: and there is a multitude of slain, and a great number of carcases; and there is none end of their corpses; they stumble upon their corpses:
Nah 3:4 Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts.
Nah 3:5 Behold, I am against thee, saith the LORD of hosts; and I will discover thy skirts upon thy face, and I will shew the nations thy nakedness, and the kingdoms thy shame.

The religious whore has "committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." (17:2). There has always been an unholy "fornicating" relationship between religion and governments as they "scratch each others backs" and serve each other's interests. The power of religion has intoxicated many with self-indulgence and self-gratification. Just as judgment came upon Nineveh "because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts." and God said, "'I am against you, and I will lift up your skirts over your face, and show to the nations your nakedness and to the kingdoms your disgrace" (Nahum 3:4), so God will judge the whoredoms of religion and that great Mystery Babylon whose father is Satan.

Yes, I did say it was Jerusalem several posts ago for John's immediate application. He was warning the saints as well as comforting them. As you noted, John identifies this city. The religious city that killed all the prophets from Abel to Zechariah as Jesus first indicated. Satan is behind all religion that opposes God and Jesus also exposed this in telling the Pharisees that in terms of spirituality their father is the "Devil". But they were hung up on who their father in the flesh was. Jesus is trying to tell them that what is important is who your spiritual father is. They were too prideful of their earthly lineage to understand (blinded by pride).

My own opinion is that a wider application of this template can be applied to other religions such as the RCC that stand against and oppose Christ, getting drunk on the blood of the saints.

Since all false religions are all part of Satan's "city" of idolatry and rebellion.

Thank you for bringing out Rev 11:8.

The earthly city stands in stark contrast to the City of God, heavenly Jerusalem. I find that the Holy Spirit is contrast the spiritual with the natural, the earthly with the heavenly, throughout the Word.

Even the physical temple and it's contents reflected spiritual realities.

This language of contrast good and evil, permeates the Word.

In this hour it is no longer a Mystery. The United States is Babylon the Great.

marcmc

Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine (false doctrine) of the wrath of her fornication (spiritual adultery).

WINE AND STRONG DRINK in the Bible is a metaphor for false doctrine.

Whoredom (spiritual adultery) and wine (false doctrine).

Read in context:

Isaiah 28:7-14

But they also have ERRED THROUGH WINE, and through STRONG DRINK are out of the way; THE PRIEST AND THE PROPHET HAVE ERRED THROUGH STRONG DRINK, they are swallowed up of WINE, they are out of the way through STRONG DRINK; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

(Isa 19:14 The LORD hath mingled a perverse spirit in the midst thereof: and they have caused Egypt to err in every work thereof, as a drunken man staggereth in his vomit.)

WHOM SHALL HE TEACH KNOWLEDGE? and whom shall he make to understand DOCTRINE? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

WHEREFORE HEAR THE WORD OF THE LORD, he SCORNFUL MEN that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. (They scorn the Word of the Lord and fall into error. They love to have their ears itched with false doctrine).

"Deep Sleep" = Spiritual Slumber
Here, the Holy Spirit actually tells us that it is not literal wine that has caused them to sleep. False doctrine!

"Drunken" - filled with false doctrine, brazen, arrogant, scornful against the true Word of the Lord.

Isa 29:9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are DRUNKEN, BUT NOT WITH WINE; they stagger, BUT NOT WITH STRONG DRINK.
Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep (spiritual slumber), and hath closed your eyes (spiritual eyes): the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

They cannot understand the Word of God.
Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed (They cannot understand, prideful heart and false doctrine has blinded them):

Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Who is the ruler of the "City of God"?

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto THE CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Who is the ruler of the "Great City Babylon"?

Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is THAT GREAT CITY, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Any false doctrine that usurps the Word of God can be found in "THAT GREAT CITY".

I used to think Mystery Babylon could be some Atherial still to come "UN led coalition of nations". I have listened to teaching to that ends. I have heard explanations of a "Revived Roman Empire" & how that supposedly "fits" for Mystery Babylon. Or America? I used to wonder if America wasn't Mystery Babylon? Very popular statement/teaching these days.

I no longer think this at all. One night Inwas reading these passages & thinking on these things & ran across a video on YouTube called: Babylon the Great & the caliph Antichrist. It blew my mind. And then just yesterday in fact I checked out an episode of "Joel's Underground, Episode 7, Where is the United States in Bible Prophecy?" from Joe Richardson. He goes right at the false notion that the USA (in its current or historical state) is "Mystery Babylon". He does it word by word, line by line, precept by precept from the Biblical texts themselves. And then shows plainly in the text that it speaks of being geographically located in "the wilderness" & that the Jews (& ancient Greeks which the NT was written in) CLEARLY defined Wilderness just like God did in the OT: as a desert. And on and on through the Biblical text to show that "Mystery Babylon" is pointing to what looks much more like Islam (centered on Mecca, a city in the middle Of a desert) than the UN, EU, USA, Rome, etc. Joel explains more why, & the YouTube video I had watched first has point by point in detail history & facts that line up so identically with Islam, it will really blow your mind.

Worth checking out & looking into, of course unless you already have all of End-Times Prophecy figured out 100% & everyone else with any other facts & perfect fits for the Biblical texts are just "fly by nights", kooks, or just don't understand scripture the way you do (😊).

God Bless,
Jeff

Jeffmar, besides Joel Richardson who's books have you read?

marcmc

I think Jeff has read the Bible. :-)

Do you think all we need is the Bible?

No books?

marcmc

Charles Spurgeon, Horatius Bonar, AW Tozer, Leonard Ravenhill, Michael Brown, chip brogdon (though I vehemently disagree with his thoughts on ultimate reconciliation), John Piper, Paul Washer (Gospel series), David Kirkwood, Lots of Andrew Murray, Oswald Chambers, CS Lewis, John MacArthur, David Wilkerson, John Bunyan, various other "Puritans", Jonathan Cahn, Art Katz, LOTS of Auto-Biographies of historical preachers/theologians/missionaries, etc. I have a pretty decent library, why?

"Read lots of books. Major on scripture." The books that do the best job of expounding explain and tying in relative Scriptures are the ones I tend to like the best & The stories of great missionaries and preachers of the past who lay down their life for the gospel

Sorry, I meant books on the subject of Mystery Babylon.

As for books in general I understand you completely. I actually had to start a used Chrsitian book company to thin my collection years ago. Churches, retiring pasters etc would call me to take theirs away. At one point I ended up worse off ( I sold 2200). Today my collection is manageable ( at least by my standards) we moved last summer and my 4 boys might say my collection is still a tad big LOL.

I like Joel and have all his stuff but Mecca? Who would care? Who trades with Mecca? Why would the sea merchants be weeping? It doesnt sit pon many waters, But nukes hitting the US major cities ( Which are almost all coastal )at the same time ( a single hour, burns forever, not inhabitable )and the US Dollar is instantly worthless, that would make them weep. A new world currency instituted and no single military power to stop it in the mayhem? There is only one group interested in controlling the world, and besides the Church only one group that thinks its the worlds savior. The Anti-Savior or Anti-Christ and that is Islam.

Marc mc

Mecca is in Saudia Arabia. Who trades with them? "Petro-Dollar"? And the more I dove in (almost by accident) & looked at the Biblical texts line by line, the more it made sense. Check this YouTube video & then Joel's teaching & then tell me if "there's even a crack of doubt" of what you've (& I've) always previously thought?

1.) search on YouTube:
"Babylon the great & the Caliph Antichrist"

And:

2.) search on YouTube:
"Joel Richardson 2015 - The Underground Episode 7, Where is the United States in Bible Prophecy"

I'd be curious if you had any doubts after hearing out the case entirely?

God Bless,
Jeff

"Sea merchants" - are "merchants of souls"

Revelation tells us that "sea" = habitation of people

Even the OT tells us that.

Religion trades in the souls of men.

Jeff back to my point who other than Joel agrees with that position?

Marc mc

Not sure to be honest. I know whoever took the time to break it all down on that YouTube video obviously does.

2 Corinthians 13:1
Deuteronomy 19:15
Matthew 18:16

Marc mc

FYI, "the mother of all" in the original language reads like "the mother of all earthquakes", as in scales of magnitude, not as in a "mom" giving birth - FYI.

"Throughout the scriptures, repeatedly & abundantly, whenever specific nations are named & highlighted for the judgement of God at the Day of the Lord, apart from the Lords chastisement against His own people Israel, it's always pointing us to regions or nations that today are vastly dominated by Islam (Isaiah 25, Isaiah 34, Isaiah 63, Joel 3, Exekiel 25, Ezekiel 30, Obadiah, Zephaniah 2, Numbers 24, etc.).

Most prophecy teachers today claim that the religion of the Antichrist will be humanism or some form of all-inclusive religious pluralism. If this is the case, then one must also believe that the overwhelming majority of middle eastern nations today will convert from Islam to a belief system common in the West, but embraced by very few in the Middle East. Yet, not once in the entire Bible
Is an exclusively European nation actually named in the context of the Day of the Lord. The Bible certainly references European nations, but never in the context of His judgement. Yet this is where the majority of prophecy teachers have told us the Antichrist & his empire will emerge.

What shall we conclude from this? How do we responsibly interpret these many passages? Shall we simply ignore these references? Or should we claim that they are all to be taken allegorically, assuming that names such as Edom, Moab, Cush, Arabia, Assyria, Libya, Lidya, or Persia are meant to imply any or every nation in the world as the vague or general enemies of God & His people? This hyper-allegorical approach is actually very common when approaching these passages. As I have already stated, I find it irresponsible and not in keeping with a conservative & literal hermeneutic. Will God exclusively judge Muslim nations and bless all Western Non-Muslim nations? How do these nations relate to the coming empire of the coming anticheist? The answer to these questions are essential if we are to grasp the message of the prophets. The implications and ramifications for evangelism & missions as well as the prayer focus of the church are immense. In the next two chapters we will attempt to answer these questions & develop a solid method of interpretation to understand these passages."

Short Excerpt from "Mideast Beast", by Joel Richardson

And check this out on YouTube:

"Joel Richardson, Mideast Beast explained"

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://youtu.be/3CpyJ3-3mBU

In this short set of video explanations, he gives a brief explanation how early church leaders like "Hippolytus of Rome" & others believed this (that Gog of Magog was from the land of ancient Assyria in Asia Minor - ie modern day Turkey, also to "true north" of Israel) how AW Pink believed this, how Clarence Larkin believed this, etc. He also explains & shows how the errant thinking of our day concerning Gog of Magog being Russian got started up by Charles Scoffield's Bible notes & perpetuated. But then shows how historical prophecy maps show that, but all major modern Bible Atlases composed by modern conservative scholars show it to be where it really was, in Asia Minor in the area of modern day Turkey (& the western edge of ancient Assyria). I have found that He is very thorough. This is some of the material he goes through very methodically in his book, "Mideast Beast, The Scriptural Case for an Islamic Antichrist". I have just personally found that what he teaches clears up so many things & connects so many dots. And without totally explaining everything away or allegorizing everything into total oblivion where nothing can really be proven whatsoever. And this is a guy with a heart & ministry focus on the persecuted church, evangelism, missions, etc. not just a "prophecy club" ministry.
Anyways,
God Bless,
Jeff

2 Pet 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words MAKE MERCHANDISE OF YOU: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

I can't help but think of how religious organizations "compete" for souls (more tithers needed) when I read this verse. Religious organizations can be across the street from each other yet many have no fellowship between themselves.

The Pharisees were threatened by Jesus and they were afraid of losing the "souls" that were following them. They said that "everyone is going after Him", and they were fearful of losing their "place". It is all a big power struggle over the control of men's souls (life).

The merchandising of souls is big business in the religious world as well as the political and financial worlds. Without souls, they have no power, no influence.

2 Pet 2:2 And many shall follow their PERNICIOUS ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

The truth is evil spoken of by these religious frauds and PERNICIOUS is a great word for them.

adj.\tTending to cause death or serious injury; deadly: a pernicious virus.
adj.\tCausing great harm; destructive: pernicious rumors.
adj.\tArchaic Evil; wicked.

Because they actually do cause death (spiritual death). Working backwards from 2 Pet 2:3, now.

2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

"Even denying the Lord that bought them"

You have the religious system merchandising the souls of men and the other parts of Satan's world system (political/financial) controlling men as ProudPapa, stated. There is your unholy tripartite relationship. Religious, Financial, Political all for the souls of men.

It is clear enough to anyone who puts his mind to it that an invisible autocracy, which is able thus to place an inflexible price upon the food of men, is really the master of their lives, or "souls". Hence we can clearly see, in the light of the foregoing facts, that the system described in ch xviii, under the symbol of the black horse and rider, has attained to full development in our day...... p.221

This complete domination of the necessities of life of human existence by an invisible system of finance has come so quietly, and so gradually, that only a few wide-awake ones have reliezed what is going on: and their voices, when they have sought to cry an alarm, were easily stifled, or drowned out......p.223

-Philip Mauro "Things which must soon come to pass"

POST EDITED TO ADD CONTENT:
Concerning the Phillip Mauro commentaries:

Wow. That is totally allegorizing everything. Not that those things aren't types, pictures & accuracies, but his whole point (agenda) is getting everything back around to prove a Historicist view.

But what does he do with all of the prophetic scriptures whose clear wider context is "The Day of the Lord", "The Day of the Lord's Vengeance..", etc. explain that away allegorically too? As if it already happened somehow?

"Only a few wide awake ones", eh? The enlightened ones? Who have read Mauros commentaries & eschatology? Not trying to be contentious here brethren, but is his view (as I recently have heard such Historicist hyper-allegorizatuon termed) "borderline gnostic" (gnosis Greek for "to know" as in this "secret knowledge" that isn't necessarily available to all believers with the scriptures, but only the "enlightened ones" who follow down the rabbit hole?

When I began looking at all the views side by side in earnest desire (with much prayed) to want to know "Lord, what is the truth?" The thing I can't get away from is that I had done some of these same possible "allegorizings" in my mind before too (could this mean XYZ?). But as I went back and looked at these passages more in depth in their full context, I have and still am realizing that they are inconsistent. And why would God make such "hyper-allegorizatikns" of the scriptures only available to "the scribes" & yet, most of the prophets (those gifted in that way - the true ones, not the fakers so save that speech please) don't? Why would God hide the prophetic prophecies from the prophets themselves? That makes no sense?

And only reveal it to the "special scribes" who have the "secret knowledge"? I'm not trying to sensationalize it, but the more I read of these guys, the more I see it. There's a hidden hook/bait, I believe, in the pride of men's hearts to "be the special ones" to interpret the scriptures. Not BY THE SCRIPTURES, but those "in the know" (who have no prophetic Ilk to see that I can tell)? That doesn't make sense to me. Not trying to be arrogant, proud, harsh, or contentious. God knows my heart & I am not. But I am just being honest.

God Bless,
Jeff

Most conservative commentators hold that the Book of Revelation was written around 90 or 95 A.D. But there are those such as Hank Hanegraaff who hold that the Book of Revelation was written before 70 A D. If so then the Apocalypse of John has already taken place.

But then seems like we're living in one messed-up Millennium if that is the situation. :-)

Jeff, I can go back to many of your posts and show you how you sneak in nasty smears under the guise of not wanting to be contentious, arrogant, proud or harsh. Can't you just deal with the subject without smearing and defaming men?

Let's see what you snuck into this humble post:

"Special Scribes", "Secret Knowledge", "Special Ones", "Fakers", "Few wide-awake ones", "The enlightened ones"?

Your dream was like that. Sneaky, off-handed, backdoor sarcasm and judgments. But it was a "dream" so it must have come from God and not your own mind and emotions filled with frustrations over the topic. Do you really believe the nastiness in that dream came from God? Why do you feel the need to communicate this way?

I was hoping someone would bring this to your attention.

That's funny (or ironic) Julius, cause those quotations for things like "only the wide-awake ones" were actually from the post in Philip Mauros own words? So you're accusing me of "smearing" when I'm just regurgitating the actual words & the ideas of "your guy"?

Do you see a problem with that Julius? Go back & read the post quoting Maurro.

I wasn't trying to be contentious. I was just pointing out his words & the inconsistencies of the view he is espousing. But I guess you can discern some evil intent in me for that?

Anyways, God Bless you Julius,
Jeff

And the irony in telling me to "play the ball & not the man" when I in fact was & so you "play me" personally & not the ball (& it's just your own guys words, not mine).

That is something psychologists call "confirmation bias". Everyone inherently has it. It's the ones who don't realize they do & deal with it that are the hardest cases & displays of willful blindness from it.

Lord, guard all our hearts from this form of pride

Especially mine. I know what lies in my flesh. No good thing. Have your way in me Lord. And Julius too (😊)

That was a lighthearted joke Julius. You can take a break from scolding me & laugh, it's ok

Yeah, I am laughing. I am laughing how you shrug it off and blameshift back to me.

"Playing the man" and not the ball, is when one turns attention to defaming a man who is trying to talk about a subject or defaming a man that wrote an article because one cannot deal with the content of the article in a mature way.

I am not defaming you. I am bringing to your attention that you are not focusing on the subject at hand, but smearing others who ARE focusing on the subject.

Smearing men is lying about men, I am not lying about you. But, you can't receive it without lying and smearing back at me. Now, that is ironic!

Ok Julius,
Let's just look at it squarely then And "play the ball", ok?

Phillip Mauro said, among other things, (quoting from the thread post):

IT IS CLEAR ENOUGH TO ANYONE WHO PUTS HIS MIND TO IT that an invisible autocracy, which is able thus to place an inflexible price upon the food of men, is really the master of their lives, or "souls". Hence we can clearly see, in the light of the foregoing facts, that the system described in ch xviii, under the symbol of the black horse and rider, has attained to full development in our day...... p.221

This complete domination of the necessities of life of human existence by an invisible system of finance has come so quietly, and so gradually, THAT ONLY A FEW WIDE AWAKE ONES HAVE REALIZED WHAT IS GOING ON; and their voices, when they have sought to cry an alarm, were easily stifled, or drowned out......p.223
-Philip Mauro "Things which must soon come to pass"

So I was just quoting Your guy for HIS WORDS & IDEAS HE IS CONVEYING. Verbatim. Word for word & thought for thought. So if you thought it was nasty, sneaky, & had an agenda, I agree. I get that same check in my spirit when I read Phillip Mauro on this subject too Julius.

And you said to me afterwards (among lots of other slams and impugning my motives as evil, sneaky, sinister & devilish):

Jeff, I can go back to many of your posts and show you how you sneak in nasty smears under the guise of not wanting to be contentious, arrogant, proud or harsh. Can't you just deal with the subject without smearing and defaming men?

Let's see what you snuck into this humble post:

"Special Scribes", "Secret Knowledge", "Special Ones", "Fakers", "Few wide-awake ones", "The enlightened ones"?

Again, I was merely discussing how your guy frames opposition in HIS OWN WORDS & his whole idea/thought process. And you came out directly at me with a bazooka doing what you were accusing me of doing. That is why I mention "confirmation bias" because we can be so adamant to defend a man's position that using his own words & ideas is apparently off limits except for the "few wide awake ones" who really understand what Maurro meant or something?

I don't want to argue with you Julius. I just didn't feel it was right for you to accuse me of doing something I wasn't doing & in turn do that very thing to me. Just Forget it.

God Bless you,

Jeff

And me stating ahead of time that I'm not trying to be contentious, harsh, arrogant etc. is because I know (from experience and your post that immediately followed just further confirms it) that if you point out flaws, inconsistencies, & especially if you point out his own words as being part of the "few special wide awake ones", it is going to bring out people who are so set on pushing this guys agenda that he himself (by that I mean his own words & all his doctrines) is "above questioning" & so I then MUST BE all those things. How dare I? But even Paul said, "if I, or anyone preach another Gospel than that you have heard....let him be accursed" in Galatians. And the scriptures say "the Bereans were more noble....searching the scriptures to see if these things are true..."

And Jesus of false & good teachers, "by their fruit (Greek word there is "offspring" - what they produce after themselves) you will recognize them.."

But I can't analyze Maurro's words or I must be lets see, "sneaky", "evil", crafty, and what other synonyms for the devil himself were there again? All because I question the way he speaks about this "special knowledge"... & those who disagree & hold to a more traditional view?

Jeff, Oil is not the only thing spoken of in Babylon. It appears from the text that Babylon is a world trade center of these products. And unlike Julious's point the shipmasters are actually just shipmasters.

No one buys this stuff on the list from Mecca

Rev 18:9 "The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

11 "And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore: 12 merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; 13 and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men. 14 The fruit that your soul longed for has gone from you, and all the things which are rich and splendid have gone from you,[e] and you shall find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls! 17 For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance 18 and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great city?’

People know the difference between someone taking a critical look at a man's teaching and character assassination. Why are you acting so obtuse? (Playing dumb).

Saying that you are not doing this ahead of time does not negate the smearing that then ensues by you. Your disclaimer has no power in and of itself if you violate it. You think we are fools?

Now, you smear him by your backhanded reference to him as having an "agenda".

If you don't like a teaching, it is then labeled an "agenda".

Look, any man's teaching is fair game to be scrutinized by the Word of God. Some people can't contest a teaching with a Berean attitude so they resort to character assassination. Some posters, who do use the Word of God to test a teaching, also have their character assassinated.

What is so difficult about this for you to understand? You are "bobbing and weaving", a lot.

People that can't test a teaching with the Word of God and instead resort to character assassination of the poster or the man or woman behind the teaching ought to stay out of forums until they can.

The reason I am telling you this is that I am under the impression there is some hope for you in learning to communicate without resorting to these tactics.

You know Julius....nevermind.

These are your forums bro, it's your world. I'm just an evil squirrel.

You didn't answer any of what I specifically quoted/said, just fell back on accusing me & then adding "I think there's some hope for you"? Wow.

Thanks. I appreciate it.

I don't even know what to say I haven't already (that you refuse to see/address). Yes, I believe Phillip Mauro's teachings/writings CLEARLY have "an agenda". I say that unashamedly, unapologetically, etc. But instead of addressing his own language, the strange borderline heretical views he espoused at the end of his life, how he was DEAD wrong on Israel never being formed as a nation ever again "or we have to question the whole New Testament" (you really avoided addressing that nonsense), etc. you just keep coming at me over and over and over again? And, though some on the forum didn't do it in the right spirit, you wonder why others have said the same of you (concerning agenda).

SI is your forum King Julius. You can have it bro. I cry uncle. Not in false humility, but in seeing it's not beneficial or edifying. I can't question Mauro's actual words, teachings, etc. but you can SLAM me, slander me, accuse my motives, etc. & that's ok, though?

I give bro. I don't want to share where you're involved. I really don't. Have a nice forum.
God Bless,
Jeff

Jeff, it's not just Mauro, but other writers and posters that you smear, like you are doing to me with your biting sarcasm.

Why do I have to keep pointing out the obvious?

You play so dumb, but I think you are smart enough to know what you are doing.

Many read your posts, it's not just me that sees what you are doing.

Your sarcasm is just a smokescreen for your embarrassment and unwillingness to apologize and stop doing what you are doing. I will call you on it every time... Just in case you really don't know what you are doing.

Brothers,

Though we disagree on doctrinal points are we not redeemed by the same blood of the Lamb? Was His blood shed in vain on us? We were children of wrath (ephesians 2) and not worthy of this great salvation that we now enjoy.

In the end does it matter that we disagree on something when we will be in the same heaven rejoicing and praising the same Saviour? Christ allowed Himself to be slandered and did not fight back, are we both right? Can we follow the example of our Lord and humble ourselves at times.

Can we serve each other and try and learn something good from each other? It is Satan's plan to bring disunity, divisiveness and name-calling amongst true believers. We will stand before the Lord soon to take account for all our motives words and actions and He will say to us that how we treated the very least of the brethren is how we treated Him.

We are locking this thread and ask the same discussion topic does not start again.