Why are Jewish believers so important? Dr. Michael L. Brown

Why are Jewish believers so important?

Line of Fire radio host, Dr. Michael L. Brown, one of the world’s foremost Messianic Jewish apologists, understands the importance of what is happening in the hearts of Jewish People around the world today.

"Many believers today, especially in the younger generation, have serious questions about why they should stand with the people of Israel,” Brown, a nationally syndicated columnist, said. ”Tragically, throughout much of Church history, professing Christians have driven Jews away from Jesus, to the point that many religious Jews today associate the Holocaust with Christianity.”

Brown stresses how the Apostle Paul emphasizes the importance of the Jewish People's coming to Christ.

"He wants the Gentile believers in Rome to understand the implications of Israel's salvation, writing, ‘For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?’ (Rom. 11:15),” Brown points out. "He is saying that Israel's salvation is intimately tied in to the return of the Messiah, and when He returns, the righteous dead are resurrected and living believers receive their glorified bodies. You'd better believe that Israel's salvation matters!”

He also addresses attitudes within the Church that some have when it comes to Orthodox Jewish People, believing that they should be indebted to them for sharing the Truth about Jesus.

"Since the Law and the prophets and the Messiah and the apostles are all from Israel, and since the Gentile believers have been grafted into the commonwealth of Israel ”” into Israel's olive tree (Eph. 2:11-22) ”” they should be humble rather than prideful.,” the founder of "Ask Dr. Brown” contends. "And so Paul warns, ‘do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you’ (Rom. 11:18); in Rom. 15:27, Paul goes so far as to urge the believers in Rome to help support Jewish believers living in Israel, since they are spiritually indebted to them.”

Another misperception many believers harbor is that Jewish People not believing in Christ reject the Gospel because of their own stubbornness or contempt for Christianity, but Brown says that their aversion to salvation through the Savior was written about thousands of years ago in the pages of Scripture.

"Paul explains that the great bulk of the nation remains hardened and outside of the Messiah (and therefore lost), but that hardening is only ‘in part,’ meaning, it is not for all the people (there is always a remnant that believes) and it is not for all time,” Brown asserts. "As he writes, ‘Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in’ (Rom. 11:25).”

Brown reminds non-Jewish Christians not to get haughty and think they are the replacement for "hard-headed” Jewish People who won’t listen to Jesus’ words.

"Paul was concerned that the Gentile believers would think that they were the new Israel and that they had replaced the old Israel (sadly, this had been taught through much of Church history, resulting in much suffering for the Jewish People, not to mention much spiritual darkness in the Church),” Brown explains. "He emphasized that Israel's hardening was only partial, waiting until the full harvest of the Gentiles would come in. This clearly speaks of the climax of the Great Commission.”

Playing parts in the greatest story ever told

As a Jewish believer in Christ, Brown emphasizes that what is happening in Israel and Jewish hearts today is not a product of Jewish stubbornness or Christian evangelic efforts … it is all about the unfolding of the story that God has already told through Scripture:

"Paul then writes, ‘And in this way [meaning, on the heels of the fullness of the Gentiles coming in or provoked by that fullness] all Israel will be saved, as it is written, 'The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob. And this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins' (Rom. 11:26-27),” Brown continues. "This is not a matter of divine favoritism; it is a matter of the faithfulness of God. He always keeps His promises!”

He makes it clear that the Jewish People are key pieces in God’s puzzle that will be appropriately fitted in His perfect timing.

"And so Paul concludes, ‘As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11:28-29),” added Brown, founder of the FIRE School of Ministry in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Word to the skeptics

For those still doubting the Jewish People’s intricate tie-in with Christ’s Second Coming and other End Times events, Brown makes his case.

"You might be wondering, ‘But how do I know if the modern state of Israel today is the fulfillment of prophecy?’” Brown poses. "The answer: When God blesses no one can curse, and when He curses no one can bless. When He opens a door, no one can shut it, and when He closes a door, no one can open it. In the same way, when He scatters no one can gather, and when He gathers, no one can scatter.”

He further shows how, just like in biblical times, believers and non-believers alike are used by God to fulfill prophesy declared to mankind ages ago.

"’It is He who scattered the Jewish People in His wrath, preserving us under His discipline as He promised (Jer. 31:35-37), and therefore it is only He who can re-gather us,’” Brown highlights from Scripture. "The fact that we have been re-gathered to the Land, especially in the aftermath of the horrors of the Holocaust, can only be explained as a glorious act of God.”

Brown briefly lays out the reasons why Christians’ and America’s bond and alliance with Israel are of paramount importance.

"The Church should stand with Israel because of its spiritual, historic debt, since salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22),” Brown argues. "The Church should stand with Israel to help eradicate the horrible history of ‘Christian’ anti-Semitism.”

Putting it all in a nutshell, Brown says believers should customize their treatment of God’s people (Jewish People) according to their knowledge of things to come, understanding that the softening of their hearts to Christ is an indication of the soon-to-come reunion with their Lord and Savior.

"And, the Church should stand with Israel and share the Gospel with the Jewish People because Israel's salvation means life from the dead and the return of the King,” Brown concludes.

An excellent commentary by Dr Brown. Sound, biblical
and Christ exalting.

"You might be wondering, ‘But how do I know if the modern state of Israel today is the fulfillment of prophecy?’” Brown poses. "The answer: When God blesses no one can curse, and when He curses no one can bless. When He opens a door, no one can shut it, and when He closes a door, no one can open it. In the same way, when He scatters no one can gather, and when He gathers, no one can scatter.”

Romans 2:11
but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God. 12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Deuteronomy 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes.

Job 34:19
who shows no partiality to princes and does not favor the rich over the poor, for they are all the work of his hands?

Acts 10:34
Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism

That's in a appropriate use of those passages in context & meaning to the issue of Israel. I take it you cut Romans 7 out of your Bible & don't believe in election? Well, God "shows no partiality" means there's no such thing as election right? That would mean having to cut out pages in your Bible. Also, using the verses on "no partiality" to mean God has no intent on fulfilling His promises to Israel is like when people say:

Women can be teachers! Women can have authority over men! After all, the scriptures say, "there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek...all are equal in Christ". But context & the whole of scripture matters. Elsewhere Paul clearly says, "I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man.....if anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual let him acknowledge what I say to use is not from man but God."

So is scripture contradictory? No! It means they are equal in VALUE but not in ROLE. Similarly, the end time Israel/Jew has a specific role to be fulfilled as God keeps His promises. But we are all equal in Christ IN VALUE.

And the "no partiality" is that NOONE will be saved apart from Christ. So unbelieving Jews who die in unbelief are no more saved than unbelieving Gentile's.

Context, context, context. And the FULL COUNSEL of the Word of God (not a verse out of context here & one there).

God Bless,
Jeff

Excellent article Rev!
FYI - I was told just yesterday by someone who would know that Michael Brown is actually working on a book answering all of the objections, challenges, issues, etc. concerning Israel & eschatology all from the scriptures.
God Bless,
Jeff

Thanks Jeff, interesting comments, although a bit mixed up
Let's look at some of the basics for a moment;

Paul was also a Jew but he never called himself a "Messianic Jew" that expression is not found in the Bible !
If it is not in the Bible I don't want to know

Paul wrote
Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 2 Corinthians 5:17

endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you[a] all. Ephesians 4:3-6

If I would start a new movement I would not endeavor to keep the unity of the Spirit!

Paul wrote :"To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;… Ephesians 3:8

There are unfathomable riches of Christ to be discovered , therefore I have no time to listen to Dr Brown and his ???
teaching or discuss it any further !!

May the King be exalted:

"He is exalted the King is exalted on High
I will praise You
He is exalted forever exalted
And I will praise His name ..."

Blessings!

that is just a terrible post you wrote to Jeff, with a HARD BRITTLE UNLOVING spirit behind, which I have noticed in the last months has been increasingly amped up on this forum towards the Jews, of which I am one....there are many here with such a spirit, that one Day, will call "Lord, Lord" and you will hear those terrible Word, "I NEVER KNEW YOU".

this sin is on you.

http://askdrbrown.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/A-Baptism-of-Tears-for-Israel.mp3

I will let Mike say what I have to say, and write no more, I dust my feet off and say what the Lord has given me:

"i see mushroom clouds"

FEAR GOD!

unbelieving Jews who die in unbelief are no more saved than unbelieving Gentile's.

That is a true statement, we must not look to physical Israel as saved or in right relationship with God. They are a people group as other gentile people groups. But what is important to realize is that they are a special people group that God chose out of idol worshipping peoples to reveal Himself to raise up the messiah, prophets and apostles. So we must realize that it is only because of their unbelief and rejecting the revelation of Messiah that we have now the opportunity to belief so easily in the Lord. And that in the end their people group will again receive the Lord, perhaps not fully but the Scriptures call it a raising up again from the dead (Romans 11).

There is zero justification for despising any people group in the world especially the Jewish people who the Lord clearly says He has end times purposes in his plan in redeeming people from every tribe, tongue and nation.

Towards personal attacks in this thread, saints please desist from doing this as it only shames Christ and others who are bought by the blood of our Lord. Differences of thinking are rampant in American christianity and many confusing doctrines are being embraced by saints who are redeemed. we must in love look at each other, bear patiently with each other and not personally attack or accuse each other.

Well,
No offense intended here, but I actually think it is you that's "mixed up" when it comes to basic Biblical context/hermeneutics. I agree that we are to keep the "unity of the spirit of the Bond of peace". Amen! But just so we aren't picking & choosing verses out of context to support a predetermined suppositional argument however we fancy - what's the surrounding context of that verse?

Ephesians 4
1I therefore, xa prisoner for the Lord, urge you to xwalk in a manner worthy of xthe calling to which you have been called,2with all xhumility and xgentleness, with xpatience, xbearing with one another in love, 3eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in xthe bond of peace. 4There is xone body and xone Spirit””just as you were called to the one xhope that belongs to your call”” 5xone Lord, xone faith, xone baptism, 6xone God and Father of all, xwho is over all and through all and in all.7But xgrace was given xto each one of us xaccording to the measure of Christ's gift.8Therefore it says,
x"When he ascended on high xhe led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men.”
9(xIn saying, "He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into xthe lower parts of the earth? 10He who descended is the one who also xascended xfar above all the heavens, that he might xfill all things.) 11And xhe gave the xapostles, the prophets, the xevangelists, the xpastors and teachers, 12xto equip the saints for the work of ministry, for xbuilding up xthe body of Christ, 13until we all attain to xthe unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, xto mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of xthe fullness of Christ, 14so that we may no longer be children, xtossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in xdeceitful schemes. 15Rather, xspeaking the truth in love, we are to xgrow up in every way into him who is xthe head, into Christ, 16xfrom whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, xwhen each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

The Context is clearly talking about being meek, being humble, gentle, patient, loving, etc. in bearing with one another. And then goes on to talk about how that unity plays out among the different gifting/calling within the Body of Christ. I missed the part about God not keeping His Word throughout the prophets concerning what He will do in the end (repeatedly in the context of "The Day of the Lord", "The Day of the Lord's vengeance", etc. - the second coming unless you are a hyper Preterist who thinks He already did that in 70AD? That would, I believe, be one of those "strange winds of doctrine" Paul refers to here) among the Jews, or where is the nullifying of Romans 11? Or a good/real explanation for why Jesus didn't correct the apostles in Acts 1 just before His resurrection, nor did Luke give ANY indicators that they didn't understand (when every other example in scripture where the disciples just "didn't get it" had either Jesus correcting their ignorance or God had the writer make an indicator statement in the immediate context letting us know they were "off").

Then you said:
"Paul was also a Jew but he never called himself a "Messianic Jew" that expression is not found in the Bible !"

Sure, the words "Messianic Jew" are not in scripture. Neither is the word "trinity" by the way. Nor "Continuist". Nor "Cessationist". Nor a lot of other words we know the meanings to. The Biblical language would be "believing Jew" ("Messainic Jews" who "believe" Jesus was the "Messiah") & "unbelieving Jew". This is pretty straight - forward. The Bible never uses the Word "Hermeneutics" either (or a lot of other words), but I trust you know what it means? It's important because scripture says, "not many of you should presume to be teachers" & "study to show thyself approved, a workman who need not be ashamed, but rightly dividing the Word of Truth"! And the Bible is God's "Logos" (written word) to us empowered by His "Pnuemas" (Spirit), which gives us HIS "Rhema" (revelation) of Truth. The Bible is not a comprehensive unabridged dictionary to the only usable words in the English (and/or Hebrew/Greek) language.

And,
"Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 2 Corinthians 5:17

So do I not recognize you as a man or a woman as a woman? That's "according to the flesh" right? So all men and all women should not be "recognized according to the flesh"?

Again, let's look at the total context of 2 Corinthians 5 & what the scripture IS & IS NOT referring to:
"11Therefore, knowing xthe fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But xwhat we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience. 12xWe are not commending ourselves to you again but xgiving you cause to boast about us, so that you may be able to answer those who boast about outward appearance and not about what is in the heart. 13For if we xare beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14For the love of Christ xcontrols us, because we have concluded this: that xone has died for all, therefore all have died; 15and he died for all, xthat those who live might no longer live for themselves but xfor him who for their sake died and was raised.

16From now on, therefore, xwe regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer.17Therefore, if anyone is xin Christ, he is xa new creation. xThe old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18All this is from God, xwho through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us xthe ministry of reconciliation; 19that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, xnot counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us xthe message of reconciliation."

So what is actually being referenced here is the same thing as what the book of Galatians & elsewhere is referring to: "THOSE WHO BOAST ABOUT OUTWARD APPEARANCE & NOT WHAT IS IN THE HEART" So what is Paul speaking of exactly? Clearly, the Law. Circumcision. UnMixed fabric on garments. ETC.

So, yes, I would not say to bow down to "Orthodox Jews" (another word not in scripture, but I trust you know what that means) because they have outward appearances keeping the Law! Quite the contrary. That has NOTHING to do with the subject, or OP, or Romans 11, Acts 1, most of the Biblical prophetic declarations of the OT prophets concerning what would happen around "The Day of The Lord", etc.

And as far as Ephesians 3, yes & Amen that Paul was sent to share the Gospel with the Gentiles (I fit in that category & I assume you do too?), so praise God. But Paul is merely stating that God called, appointed & sent Him primarily to the Gentile's, as scripture shows elsewhere Peter was sent primarily to proclaim the Gospel to the Jews. So what? What does that have to do with the OP?

Let's look at Romans 11 (I know you don't have time, but I happen to think Romans 11 since its in the same Word of God is also important as is Ephesians 3):

The Remnant of Israel
1I ask, then, xhas God rejected his people? By no means! For xI myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin (*why is Paul saying that? Hasn't he read 2 Cor 5, Ephesians 3, etc? Oh yeah, he wrote them - my added, obviously). 2xGod has not rejected his people whom he xforeknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3x"Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4But what is God's reply to him? x"I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5So too at the present time there is xa remnant, chosen by grace. 6xBut if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7What then? xIsrael failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest xwere hardened, 8as it is written,
x"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
xeyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”
9And David says,
x"Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”

Gentiles Grafted In

11So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass xsalvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion (*what? "will" in future tense? Full inclusion? Paul must not have read much Replacement theologians' works, huh? - my added) mean!

13Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as xI am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and xthus save some of them.15For if their rejection means xthe reconciliation of the world, what will (*"will" in future tense - my added) their acceptance mean but life from the dead?16xIf the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17But if xsome of the branches were broken off, and you, xalthough a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you xstand fast through faith. So xdo not become proud, but xstand in awe. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, xprovided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise xyou too will be cut off. 23And xeven they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more (*but Paul, isn't that language showing favoritism? - my added) will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

The Mystery of Israel's Salvation

25xLest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: xa partial hardening has come upon Israel, xuntil the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
x"The Deliverer will come xfrom Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27
"and this will be my xcovenant with them
xwhen I take away their sins.”
28As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are xbeloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and xthe calling of God are irrevocable. 30Just as xyou were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God xhas consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. (*sounds an awful lot like election & Soveriegn grace explained back on Romans 7 to me! - my added)

33Oh, the depth of the riches and xwisdom and knowledge of God! xHow unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34
"For xwho has known the mind of the Lord,
or xwho has been his counselor?”
35
"Or xwho has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
36For xfrom him and through him and to him are all things. xTo him be glory forever. Amen.

Interesting because I even had a dream about this very discussion/explanation last night. The scriptures are true. ALL OF THEM. In their proper context taken as part of the whole, full counsel of the sum of all of God's Words. I could pull out a verse here & 1 there & build a thousand unbiblical, incomplete doctrines. The fact is, no one is saved outside of the Gospel. But/And, God is Himself going to Sovereignly fulfill ALL of His promises in the end (before the Day of the Lord) & do a mighty work of revival in Israel (just like how if you are saved it was through God's sovereign grace, not your brilliant wisdom or something good in you in turning to Christ).

I am about done with this whole conversation/subject. If people are choosing to not want to look squarely & honestly at ALL the scriptures, in context, & have been reading every replacement theology website there is, & have chosen to buy into it full-bore with no openness to looking at ALL of the things God says in His Word in their full context, then what good is the discussion as a whole? A predetermined suppositional argument stance will not allow anyone (myself included) to grow in knowledge, wisdom, or understanding. Like any other Biblical subject of study, When you really look at ALL of the scriptures on the subject with an open heart/mind, it just becomes clearer, & clearer, & clearer IMHO.

God Bless you all,
Jeff

And, as a side note, the very interesting thing about my dream last night relating to this whole discussion (some of you may give no value to dreams either or cut those passages/pages out of your Bibles too - OT & NT) was that by my father's side, with His help, & with his constant encouragement to do it calmly, meekly, graciously as I can while not holding back the truth he taught me on the matter, I was correcting a group of young kids who were walking & holding up "Feel the Bern" Bernie Sanders signs.

I was telling them to go back, study, & look at the fruit of historical Marxism/socialism on economies, society, believers, etc. They would have none of it. In their newfound youthful zeal, they knew nothing of history (nor did they care), but they were "all pumped up" with their rhetoric, all the smooth sayings that fed to their pride & greed, & had not one ounce of humility to hear anything from anyone, even someone older or more studied in the matter. They wanted socialism & they wanted it now, & they would have to see the end of the fruits of such a system for themselves (always tragic in history eventually once it plays all the way out & it shows its real face).

But my "father" with me just put His hand on my back, said "be calm son". They will have to see for themselves. Tell them the truth as I have shown you in what I wrote down & pray for them.

Mock if you want, but I'm certain this relates to this discussion & this thread subject.
God Bless,
Jeff

Jeff

Good post

You said:
"If people are choosing to not want to look squarely & honestly at ALL the scriptures, in context, & have been reading every replacement theology website there is, & have chosen to buy into it full-bore with no openness to looking at ALL of the things God says in His Word in their full context, then what good is the discussion as a whole?"

There is a dark, dark spirit that some of these people have given themselves over too and that is why they cannot see what the Spirit speaks clearly through his Word.
It's is as bad as Catholics, Mormons etc as too the spiritual dark cloud they have put themselves under. No reasoning from the scripture will help as we are learning until they repent.

There is zero justification for despising any people group in the world especially the Jewish people who the Lord clearly says He has end times purposes in his plan in redeeming people from every tribe, tongue and nation.

Towards personal attacks in this thread, saints please desist from doing this as it only shames Christ and others who are bought by the blood of our Lord. Differences of thinking are rampant in American Christianity and many confusing doctrines are being embraced by saints who are redeemed. we must in love look at each other, bear patiently with each other and not personally attack or accuse each other.

Hi Greg,
I certainly agree there is "zero justification for despising any people group in the world". Just to be clear, you don't see anyone here despising any people group, do you? There are some posters being despised (no justification for that, either), which you are addressing, but do you see anyone despising a people group outside of SI?

It is disingenuous for some to say others despise Jewish people just because they don't see in the Scriptures that Jesus is going to set up a physical kingdom. That is a low blow and false accusation as I know you will agree. And they also try to make the accusation stick that others believe Gentiles have replaced Jews in the Church, which is equally false. But, they persist in trying to make that label stick. Thank you for trying to stop those attacks.

So we must realize that it is only because of their unbelief and rejecting the revelation of Messiah that we have now the opportunity to belief so easily in the Lord. And that in the end their people group will again receive the Lord, perhaps not fully but the Scriptures call it a raising up again from the dead (Romans 11).

Amen!

oh Julius....

TMK,
Let me ask you a question:

When it says in Exodus "And God hardened Pharoah's heart", what does that mean to you?
God Bless,
Jeff

Or for that matter how do you interpret what Paul himself is saying that Romans 11?

I think a rereading of Romans 7 answers these questions pretty plainly unless we explain them away, change their meaning, etc.

Jeff

What this suggests to me is that God allowed Pharaoh to harden his heart without divine intervention. God gave him what he wanted without any counter measure or grace to repent.

Thats my infallible take anyway.

Rev,
Thanks for sharing. However we see or define it specifically & individually, if we apply it to God hardening Pharoah's heart, then wouldn't it hold true that we should apply it very similarly to "a partial hardening" upon Israel for a time that Paul spoke of in Romans 11? That's my point.
God Bless,
Jeff

Jeff

We both know when applying the scriptures to Israel we are to always take
it literally in a figurative and purely spiritual sense.. This will clarify
all confusion you may have.

For example Romans 11 is really referring to something other that what it is saying.
Please replace Jews, Israel, Abraham etc with the word church saints, christians etc. when reading such passages, This will at first seem confusing but believe me the light will dawn, the sun will rise and ..........

Docs,
I think he's being sarcastic. 😏
God Bless,
Jeff

David

Just trying to use the replacement/supersesionist/ Mauroist philosophy
of biblical (re)interpretation. That way perfect sense can be made of what appears to be nonsense when we translate the scriptures to say when they do not mean and mean what the do not say. Hope this brings clarity to you.

This is kind of a whole other (though related I believe based on the language shared in the texts concerning election) theological issue altogether other than just the Israel issue, but I say again, what does it mean in Exodus when it says "God hardened Pharoah's heart"?

Exodus 4:
21And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the xmiracles that I have put in your power. But xI will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:
2xYou shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall tell Pharaoh to let the people of Israel go out of his land. 3But xI will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I xmultiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, 4Pharaoh will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and bring my hosts, my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment.5The Egyptians xshall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them.”

Exodus 9:
12xBut the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as xthe LORD had spoken to Moses.

Or how do you interpret what is said here in Romans 9 (I have been saying 7 I think, but I meant 9, sorry 😊)? And notice he actually brings the passages concerning God Himself hardening Pharaoh's heart into the discussion here:

Romans 9:
14What shall we say then? xIs there injustice on God's part? By no means!15For he says to Moses, x"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, x"For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For xwho can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, xto answer back to God? xWill what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?” 21xHas the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump xone vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience xvessels of wrath xprepared for destruction, 23in order to make known xthe riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he xhas prepared beforehand for glory”” 24even us whom he xhas called, xnot from the Jews only but also from the Gentile's

And later in chapter 9 it shows that righteousness was not (ever) obtained by keeping the Law, but by faith, from Abraham, to the current predominate Gentile in-gathering among all the nations, to the end when Christ returns.

And Paul goes on in Romans 11 to explain when he discusses Israel's current state of "partial hardening" until Christ Sovereignly comes & saves all Isreal (which I believe will still be by a measure of faith, but God is the one who actually draws & enables/plants the seeds of faith to begin with - that's the whole point of Pharoah's, Romans 9, Romans 11, John 6 (36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37xAll that xthe Father gives me will come to me, and xwhoever comes to me I will never cast out......44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me xdraws him. And xI will raise him up on the last day.....65And he said, "This is why I told you xthat no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.....), etc., etc., etc.

And in Romans 11 it says this (how do you interpret this?):
11So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass xsalvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!......15For if their rejection means xthe reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?......17But if xsome of the branches were broken off, and you, xalthough a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you xstand fast through faith. So xdo not become proud, but xstand in awe. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, xprovided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise xyou too will be cut off. 23And xeven they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree......25xLest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: xa partial hardening has come upon Israel, xuntil the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
x"The Deliverer will come xfrom Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27
"and this will be my xcovenant with them
xwhen I take away their sins.”
28As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are xbeloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and xthe calling of God are irrevocable. 30Just as xyou were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God xhas consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

33Oh, the depth of the riches and xwisdom and knowledge of God! xHow unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34
"For xwho has known the mind of the Lord,
or xwho has been his counselor?”
35
"Or xwho has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
36For xfrom him and through him and to him are all things. xTo him be glory forever. Amen.

It Mentions the partial (temporary) hardening of Israel, the future coming I gathering of Israel before Christ's return, & Sounds an awful lot like the language on election back in Romans 9.

And if you recoil against this, think of the Muslims coming to Christ because Jesus has appeared to them in dreams. Jesus Himself appearing to them in dreams. Did you get that? I didn't. But praise God, am I going to reject their salvation & cram my theology down their throat and say, "blessed is the one who hasn't seen, but still believed" so they must not really be saved according to my little paradigm as if I'm the keeper of God's doctrine/truth & not the Sovereign Lord Himself who declared & instituted them (& has the power to save whom He will save)?

Or one of my best friends/brothers in our fellowship here's wife's mom. She was a DEVOUT & participating Cambodian Buddhist. But Jesus Himself appeared to her in dreams (like 3 I believe that led to her eventual salvation after the last one). Is that fair? What about the crazy drug addict down in the ghetto area here who Jesus never appeared to? Why should she have the advantage of a personal visitation? Shouldn't we all be on equal footing? Or can we then accuse God of "showing favoritism/partiality"? Who is man like clay in the Master's hands that we should say to the potter that we don't approve of His work?

Fact is, the scriptures show (from the OT prophets to the NT) that God is going to do a widespread, wholesale, work among the Jews in the land of Israel FOR HIS NAME'S/WORD'S SAKE, & so I am anxious to see it if the Lord wild it be in my lifetime, humbled to see God work in this way, joyous for the Jews that will be swept back in to the root of Jesus to which we as wild olive shoots were grafted in, & praying to that ends. God is God, His Word is true, & His ways are perfect. And I trust in the Lord's goodness/character, take Him at His Word, & lean not on my own understanding/human reasoning.

I essentially need to know how you interpret all these scriptures if you don't just take them at face value, plain interpretation/understanding. If you start down some "symbolic" road of interpretation on all of them, it gets impossible to be thoroughly & completely consistent throughout the scriptures & you gotta play hermeneutical interpretive "twister gymnastics" to even make a good run at it. But people do. I personally think it all means exactly what it says. I believe like William Tyndale that "the common plowboy" can understand these scriptures as well as the clergy-men. These are actually pretty plainly spoken passages really IMHO.
God Bless,
Jeff

Mak,
Not sure if I fully agree with how you stated it 100%, but not sure I disagree fully either. Have to chew on that. Definitely Good food for thought.
God Bless,
Jeff

by makrothumia on 2016/4/8 13:47:36

God still hardens people for the same reason today. Those who refuse the love of the truth are hardened by a strong delusion because of their refusal based upon their pleasure of unrighteousness.

Israel's hardness is no different. No other nation has ever had as much revelation and rejected it. No other people have ever had such privilege as the privilege the Lord gave the people of Israel.

So what is the advantage of being a Jew? MUCH IN EVERY WAY!
That great advantage is also why wrath is also first for the Jew!

The heritage they have is the basis for the judgment they have received.
To whom much is given much is required, and the amount of blows will be in proportion to what one does with what he knows!

In all this, God's love for Israel has not changed. That is why they have been dealt with so severely and that is also why they will be shown mercy!

Mak

That's is a balance perspective, Mak. God does not actually harden a man's heart to prevent Him from receiving the truth. He presents the truth to man over and over and the result of constant rejection of the truth is the hardening of one's heart.

Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

They will be graffed back in IF they abide not still in unbelief. So, here the apostle is saying that the hardness is a result of THEIR unbelief. Not God's doing at all.

Rom 11:23 And they also, IF THEY ABIDE NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now NOT BELIEVED, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

But, not all persisted in unbelief.

Paul did say that AT THE PRESENT TIME there IS a REMNANT. Paul was part of that remnant. And in his day, many Jews were saved, so he was witnessing the REMNANT. And more and more have been added through the centuries.

Rom 11:5 Even so then AT THIS PRESENT TIME also THERE IS A REMNANT according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but THE ELECTION HATH OBTAINED IT, and the rest were blinded

People have funny notions regarding "God hardening hearts" but you explained it well, Mak. They also have strange ideas about "election" too. Maybe you could also shed some light on how this is really meant to be understood?

Not as if God chooses those who will be saved or those who will be hardened, but those who receive the truth become part of the "Elect" and those who receive not the truth, only harden their heart, more and more.