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The Key to Everything by Norman Grubb

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The Position of the Believer

PART I: The Believer as a Container for God's Presence

When I was in the British army in World War I, God very plainly called me, though I'd planned another career, to join a little independent missionary group just starting in Africa. I wasn't there very long before I deeply felt my inadequacy.

It wasn't that I was lukewarm for Jesus Christ; it wasn't that I had turned away from Him to some other interest. I was a servant of His, and my whole interest was set on introducing my brother Africans to Him. The inadequacy I felt in myself first of all was the need of love. I deeply felt, when I got among them, that I just didn't have that love which bridges the gap. With that went the need of faith - and with that the need of power. All of these were linked together.

Response to the Christian message in Central Africa, like the United States, appears to be quite large. But I soon found there was much more profession than possession. I began saying to myself, Are we bringing the Africans anything really worthwhile? Are we just bringing a code of ethics? Or a liturgy, or historic faith? Have we got something genuinely transforming to transmit to others?

Then I made the question personal, "Have I?" As I asked these questions, I discovered that when your ministry is disturbed, it tends also to disturb your personal life. I found myself, as my wife well knew, irritable at home in a way I hadn't been irritable - and critical of others to cover my own failures.

As I doubted, asked questions, and searched the Bible for some kind of an answer to my inadequacies, I found some amazing answers. Some of them have shaken me considerably. They have changed my whole viewpoint - and my experience. I can't call them revelations, because they are based on the revelation, witnessed to by the Spirit. To begin with, my attitude was that God should improve me.

Well, I'm a servant of Jesus Christ, I thought. I've been redeemed by His grace, I belong to Him. I must ask God to make me a better servant of Jesus Christ.

I thought He should channel in some love into my heart, some faith, some power, some holiness - and improve me. I had to learn sharply that self-improvement is both a sin and an impossibility. It came as a considerable shock. But though my idea of how God should answer my problem was completely wrong, my sense of inadequacy was good. It sent me to the Bible. And my first discovery came as I read one famous verse in the first letter of John: "God is love."

Suddenly the is stuck out. What dawned on me went something like this: It doesn't say God has love, but God is love. If some body has a thing, it isn't he himself. It's something just attached to him, as if you've got a coat on or something in your pocket. You just have it, and you can share it. But the Bible doesn't say God has love, but God is love.

I Could Never Love!

Love, therefore, must not be a thing I can have. Love is exclusively a Person. God is love. Therefore, there is no other pure, self-giving love in the universe beyond Him Himself. Love is exclusively a characteristic of one Person only - and that's not Norman Grubb. That was a deflation for me. I had thought I could have love imparted to me, channeled into me, and I'd be more loving. But I suddenly found God saying, "You'll never have one iota of love. I am love, and that's the end of it."

Love is a Person; one Person only loving - and that's not I, and that's not you. God is love and, therefore, love is God loving. That set a new trend of thought going. I began to relate this to my other need of power. And I suddenly found a verse in the first chapter of I Corinthians where it says that Christ is the power of God. Not Christ has the power, but He is the power.

Once again, I had thought power was something which was given to me, and I'd be a powerful servant of Jesus Christ. I suddenly found that power, also, is a Person. And that person is not I but is exclusively Christ, Who is God; it doesn't matter whether you call Him Father, Son or Holy Spirit.

Then I came to the one thing every Christian claims to have. Every believing Christian accepts the fact that he has eternal life. He takes it that he has a life which will go on forever in Heaven. ("The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.")

But I suddenly found that eternal life is not something I can ever have - for Jesus did not say, "I have the life to give you" - but, "I am the life." Once again I had found that something I had thought I had - eternal life - is one person only, and that's not I. Jesus Christ is that "eternal life."

But where did I fit into all this? Finally I came to a statement which gathered all together and finished off my investigations by its absoluteness. The verse was Colossians 3:11, where it says of believers in Christ that "Christ is all and in all." Christ is all, not Christ has all. And if Christ is all, what's left for me? Not much by my mathematics!

I had thought I was somebody, and something or could get something. I found God had taken the lot. Christ is all. Then I got the link. Christ is all and in all. Then I saw for the first time that the only reason for the existence of the entire creation is to contain the Creator! Not to be something, but to contain Someone. So there dawned a very important truth. We humans naturally regard the human self as important. But we've got the wrong ideas of the reason of the existence of the self.

An immense distortion has come into the very warp and woof of humanity. It's the distortion of the ego - of the self. Though we feel self to be important, all of this showed me that self is extremely unimportant. There is only one Self in the universe who is really important. I would almost say there is only one Self. Why? Because there's only one Person in the universe who ever said, "I Am."

God said that was His name thousands of years ago when Moses asked what he should say when people would ask, "What is the name of your God?" (Exodus 3:13, 14). We are told that at the end of the history of the universe it is God Who will be all in all. God all in all! Then what's left? It's terrific.

Why We Exist

There is only one Person, and the human creation is brought into a living relation ship with this One, so that He can manifest Himself in His perfection of life and love through us.

The whole creation exists because Spirit must have a body in which to manifest Himself. As the Scriptures say, "The whole earth is full of His glory." They say that Christ ascended "that He might fill all things." If He fills all things, all things are containers of Him. Here is both the height and the dangerous depth in humanity.

The height is simply this: the rest of creation can contain manifestations of God; we can contain God as a Person. A person cannot manifest himself as a person through anything else than a person. You can't fellowship with a dog or a stone. You can enjoy the marvels of the atom or of a precious stone, but you can't fellowship with it. But I can fellowship with you because we are of the same makeup.

God can manifest His marvels and His beauty through the flowers and trees. We can view them through the microscope and telescope, and marvel-but we do not say, "That's God." The greatest marvel, the greatest height of personality, is when we can look at a human being and say, "God is there." The depth, the dangers, of humanity are that personality means freedom. Intelligent choice is the essence of personality.

Therefore, God appeared to be on the horns of a dilemma when He created people. (Of course, He wasn't, for He knows His own business in the end.) But it appeared so because the people He created could turn around and say, "Thank you very much, I don't want You to live in me." That's exactly what happened.

We make self our god, not God. We just naturally run our own lives. And that's our whole trouble.

There isn't a single problem in humanity except our self-reactions: not one. The Devil is no trouble. He was dealt with 2,000 years ago. Your neighbor is not your trouble. Circumstances are not your trouble. The only trouble is your reaction. Distorted self, self out of gear, is our problem.

Once we know how to handle the human self and put it back where it belongs, we've found the key to life. That's what we're going to examine.

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"An important example of a panentheistic doctrine of deification within professing Christianity is Union Life, founded by Norman Grubb, who at one time was a respected evangelical leader.
In 1980 CORNERSTONE, an evangelical magazine, ran an article arguing that Union Life was teaching pantheism or panentheism. [7] Union Life has attempted to argue [8] that panentheism, unlike pantheism, is not heretical (despite Grubb's admission that he does not know the definition of pantheism!
[9]). However, neither pantheism nor panentheism separates the creation from the essential nature of the Creator, though panentheism does posit a differentiation in which the creation is the expression of the Creator.

The heretical nature of Union Life is made evident by such statements as, "there is only One Person in the universe," "everything is God on a certain level of manifestation," and "Nothing but God exists!"

[10] Therefore, Union Life's claim to following the traditions of the church fathers [11] is no more valid than that of the Mormons."

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Adam and Eve were created to be in union with God and be participants in His love. They were not created to live independently from Him.

When they sinned this union was broken leaving all of Mankind cut off from His Live and Love.

There was NOTHING man could do to solve this issue.

God in His loving wisdom provided the solution to this issue in Christ before the world was created.

We were reconciled with God in Christ and put back in union with Him. WE have been made one with by HIS doing

Without union with God - true Christianity can not exist!

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tuc,

Without union with God - true Christianity can not EXIT!

You meant, "EXIST".

Zec 2:11 And many nations shall be JOINED TO THE LORD in that day (1 Cor 6:17), AND SHALL BE MY PEOPLE: and I WILL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF THEE (Matt 18:20), and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee (John 7:29).

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is JOINED UNTO THE LORD is one spirit.

Matt 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, THERE I AM IN THE MIDST OF THEM.

John 7:29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

We are not only in union with the Lord (joined to the Lord) but we are joined to one another. That is what a Body with many members is, afterall.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

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Thanks - fixed that

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wayneman

Norman Grubb stated many times that pantheism is an error because "God is not a thing."

Jesus said, "By their fruits you will know them." The fruit of NPG's life leaves no doubt that he was a man of God.

The ministry that produced Cornerstone Magazine, on the other hand, has been exposed as a pedophilia mill and I would not put any more stock in that publication than I would "the traditions of the church fathers."

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Setting aside Norman Grubb lets see what else the PERSON OF CHRIST IS.

HE IS TRUTH

HE IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS

HE IS OUR WISDOM

HE IS OUR LIFE

HE IS OUR PEACE

HE IS OUR JOY

HE IS OUR SANCTIFICATION

HE IS OUR HOLINESS

HE IS OUR FAITH

HE IS OUR DIVINE NATURE

WE ARE PERFECT IN HIM

HE IS OUR OBEDIENCE

Can you add to this list

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This is the stuff I love, brother. :-)


Our Deliverer

Our Savior

Our Mercy

Our Healer

Our Shield

Our High Tower

Our Defender

Our Rock

Our Hiding Place

Our Lovingkindness

Our Compassion

Our Counselor

Our Great Shepherd

Our Friend

Our Brother,

Our Husbandman

Our Source of all Blessing

Our Restorer

Our Victor

Our Forgiver

Our Redeemer

Our Captain of the Hosts

Our Banner

Our Standard

Our King of Kings

Our Lord of Lords

Our Merciful and Faithful High Priest

Our True Israel

Our Alpha and Omega

Our Beginning

Our End

Our Apostle of our Faith

Our Sacrifice

Our Anchor

Our Strong Tower

Our Shield

Our Ancient of Days

Our Forerunner

Our Surety of a Better Covenant

Our Light

Our Door

Our Truth

Our Way

Our Treasure

Our Pearl of great price

Our Eternal Intercessor

Our Holy One

Our Harmless and Undefiled One

Our Tree of Life

Our Minister of the Sanctuary

Our Mediator of the New Covenant

Our High Priest of Good Things to Come

Our Lamb of God

Our Lion of the Tribe of Judah

Our Holder of the Keys

Our Qualified One Who Alone Can Open the Book

The Expression of the Heart of the Father

Our Nearest Kinsman

Our Honey in the Rock

Our High and Lifted Up One

Our Giver and Giver Again

The Glory and the Lifter of our heads

Our Righteous Judge

Our Refuge for the Oppressed

The One Who Hears the Cry of the Humble

Our Inheritance

Our Portion

Our Branch

Our Root

Our Greatest Teacher

Our Baptizer

Our Resurrection

Our Comforter

Our Guide

Our Girder of Gladness

Our Infinite One

Our Eternal One

Our Glorious One

Our Majestic One

Our Servant

The Lover of our Soul

The Keeper of our Hearts

Jesus, Our Everything

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So John Lennon was correct eh?

Beatles ”“ I Am The Walrus Lyrics

I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.

NOPE

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Joh 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

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Nope, you are not Jesus and you are not God and you are not as God either.
Him in you is still him and not you. This union life goes way to far into the realm of heresy,

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double post

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Brilliant and insightful teaching, Norman Grubb is absolutely spot on; anyone can see this if their vision is clear. Brother Norman does not go too far at all in explaining our union with Christ. His teaching is crystal clear as he states that we are nothing's, empty vessels filled with Him.

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Wrong again , the guy became a heretic in his later years,
Beware when reading him. He stretches the truth so it because untruth,
No eternal damnation for him, no hell, Imagine all the people... oops another song coming.

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post deleted. Not interested in arguing with you over this .

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Can't talk to someone who has free reign to smear men.

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Believers are temples, the dwelling place of the deity, as Paul spoke of in Corinthians.

"Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.”
1 Cor 3:16-17. (NKJV)

Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.” 1 Cor. 6:19-20 (NKJV)

However, remember that although we have God within us, we are not the deity itself. God is the deity. (We humans are the temple and the Spirit and life of Christ is the indwelling God)

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wayneman

When I first read "God Unlimited in Daily Living" (what a title!) I could not understand it, but reread and reread it until the binding fell apart, because I discerned a level of Christian experience that I knew nothing about. At the time I subscribed to American evangelical pop theology and imagined God sitting on a throne way up in the sky, watching us exercise our free will, keeping records and dishing out rewards and punishments. I had never grasped the mystery of Christ-in-us. But if we miss that, we have missed the whole gospel. May I suggest that most of this generation of church leaders have missed the whole gospel? We should not bother about contemporary orthodoxy any more than we bother about "the traditions of the church fathers."

The Union Life message cost Norman a lot. He lost respectability; ministries he had labored with for decades closed the doors to him and the professional clergy and their functionaries denounced him as a heretic.

Unpopularity with the religious authorities is always a good sign!

His friend Leonard Ravenhill wasn't too popular with the evangelical establishment either!

If you are unfamiliar with Norman Grubb and this thread has piqued your curiosity, you can find his sermons here on SI and dozens of his writings at Lighthouse Library.

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Great testimony, Wayneman.

Here is the library on SI of Norman Grubb's material. It would be great if they could put up Brian Coatney and Sylvia Pierce's material, too.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=15

There is a reason that the religious system does not want the Christian to know about these truths. It would be detrimental to their survival.

Are you aware of Sylvia Pierce and The Liberating Secret? Brian Coatney and Norman Grubb material, also. I think they are having web problems, right now.
http://davidpmoss.wix.com/sbn2#!bookstore/cwl7

Sylvia Pearce - As a young Christian she was privileged to be mentored by Norman Grubb. For twenty-five years she knew him as friend and traveling companion. For years she has been driven by the Spirit to know for herself and teach to others, the liberating secret that has personally set her free. Prior to her liberation she lived in the bondage of self-hatred and deep insecurities. Because she has found the "Pearl of Great Price," for herself, she lives to help others know these same liberating truths. Sylvia lives in Louisville, Kentucky; she is married and has four children, six grandchildren and one great-grandson and one great-granddaughter

I really enjoy the Liberating Secret's newsletters and their new app.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

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"Can't talk to someone who has free reign to smear men."

Lord have mercy on me, thank you for this reminder brother.

"People can tame all kinds of animals...but no one can tame the tongue. It is restless and evil, full of deadly poison. Sometimes it praises our Lord and Father, and sometimes it curses those who have been made in the image of God."
(James 3)

Our dear brother James was concerned with merely cursing another human being, what would he say to those who without missing a beat, without pause or concern for their souls, malign, accuse and smear mighty men of God who have given their lives to serve the Lord Jesus Christ.

I shudder to be in their shoes on the day of judgement, and even so, there go I but by the grace of God. In fact I am speaking of my own self but for the grace of God arresting me last year...but I shared that testimony elsewhere. Blessings brother Julius, keep up the good fight brother!

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wayneman

http://theliberatingsecret.org/

Yes, I know Sylvia Pearce and her excellent website. She and several other of Norman Grubb's proteges all live on the same street in Louisville. The whole neighborhood is Union Lifers! Must be a great place to live. They are holding a "God Unlimited" conference in June.

But thank you for notifying me about their new app!

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The founder of INTERVARSITY, Norman Grubb, testifies in his biography, ". . . from Boehme, most difficult to read because he could not easily put the depths of his illuminations into readable form, I got my answer, and to this day know no writer to match him. . . He is the last word to me. . . . I am saying that everything is a form by which He manifests Himself, much as my body is not exactly I, but an outward form of the inner me. This fact, gleaned through Boheme, confirmed through the writings of many others, with the foundations in Scripture, has given me my anchor." (ONCE CAUGHT, NO ESCAPE, Norman Grubb, Intervarsity Press)

Norman Grubb, and he is not alone, confessed to receiving more from mystic writings than from studying the Bible.

"These are out of bounds to the orthodox; but I have often got more from them than from normal Bible exegesis." According to his own testimony, during a time of severe despair and doubt as to the existence of God, he desperately sought for answers amongst the writings of mystics. "My answer came through the mystics and has been widening ever since," he writes. Norman Grubb, a man of unquestionable integrity and character, is a typical example of countless others, who, for whatever reason struggled to walk by faith and unfortunately turned to Gnostic ideas (Mysticism) to experience a sense of spirituality and a feeling of belonging to God.
Like Norman Grubb, numerous Pentecostals and Charismatics, in spite of all of their experiences, are floundering in doubt for lack of faith in God's Word and instead are searching for answers in mysticism - the spirit of Gnosticism. No wonder the masses are receptive to the modern Gnostic apostles and prophets.
GNOSTICISM
An abundance of information on Gnosticism is readily available. Many books and articles on the subject have been written. Old manuscripts with reference to gnosticism dating back to the early Church are not only available, but provide great insight into the teachings and influence of gnosticism on the world and in particular, the Church. W.H.C. Frend writes that "in the second century Gnosticism was a world-wide movement." (W.H.C. Frend, THE EARLY CHURCH, Hodder and Stoughton, London, 1965, p. 62). Gnostic sects sprang up all over the world. Jacques Laccariane says, "No sooner was Gnostic thought born than it began to be disseminated along the great routes of the Orient." (Ibid). Since that time Gnosticism has entrenched itself in the major religions of the world and not least of all Christianity.
Hopefully the following attempt to set out some of the basic Gnostic thoughts will at least help some Christians to be on guard against the "winds of doctrine" blowing through the Church. The great need in the Church is to discern between Gnostic thought and Christian thought.
Gnosticism is basically a form of mystical religious philosophical doctrines the early Christian sects spread and which the early Church vehemently rejected as heresy. Believers in Gnosticism are called Gnostics. The word "Gnostic" is derived from the Greek word "gnostikos" rr "gnosis" (inner mystic knowledge). The Gnostics believe that "gnosis" is subjective knowledge of the divine element or spark in every man that needs to be discovered to be known. They believe the divine spark originally came from the "realm of light" (totally alienated from the world and the flesh, and is resident in the soul of man and is held there in captivity by the flesh a product of demons). And the only way to release the divine spark is through divine revelation knowledge experienced in the spirit. Also they believe that only when the unconscious spirit in man is awakened by revelation from the "realm of light" can he come to know his real self - the god within.

SIX THOUGHTS THAT CHARACTERIZE GNOSTICISM
1. Man is Co-Substantial with God
As soon as man by "gnosis" {self knowledge) discovers and releases the imprisoned divine spark (spirit), he then starts on a mystic ascent to divine substance and on into the "realm of light". Through divine revelation knowledge experienced in self, man becomes conscious of his origin with God, his essence as God and his transcendent destiny - all God. The unconscious self of man (the unawakened inner spirit) is co-substantial with the Godhead, e.g. having the same substance or essential nature. This is the kernel Gnostic thought that has led to the creature being deified, worshipped and served more than the Creator who is blessed for ever.
2. For the Elite only
The mystic "gnosis" is only taught to the elite - those who have a special capacity beyond the force of reason and the flesh. According to Gnostic writings, this special capacity was imparted by a messenger bearing a "spark" of light from the "realm of light" even before the creation of the world. The goal of the Gnostic is the release of the inner man by virtue of gnosis (inner knowing) and his return to his native "realm of light". There seems to be a special "place" for a special "people" who are "especially" called out or chosen. That is how the spiritual elitism comes forth. (It is this Gnostic thought that is behind much of the aberrant teachings of the Latter Rain Movement.)
3. The Intuition of the Mystery of Self
The Gnostic concept of God is determined by the depth of illumination and revelation subjectively experienced "about God". The concept rejects faith in God the Person. The reference point for godhood is in self. Gnostic revelation must be distinguished from Christian revelation because it is not rooted in history and transmitted by Scripture. It is rather the intuition of the mystery of self. The dark cloud of mysticism that overshadows the Church can readily be traced to the Gnostic’s "intuition of the mystery of self".
4. Redemptive Quality
The Gnostic believes that gnosis (self knowledge) is redemptive and as such needs to be discovered and known. As a result of gnosis, man subjectively discovers, as a creature, the reality of his lasting unity with the transcendent God, that his life is immortal and that he is an ongoing manifestation of the light and the god that dwells in his inner self. This knowledge, it is believed, has a redemptive quality that takes the spirit in man to the ultimate realm of
light such as the fulness of God,
5. The New Birth and It's Source
Love and salvation are reckoned obvious consequences of "gnosis". Pure knowledge without subjective reality provides intellectual enlightenment that comes from force of reason and must be avoided because it suppresses the gnosis of Divine Reality. The only substantial evidence of Divine Salvation comes from within the self-consciousness of man. It is in the experience of the inner gnosis that the Gnostic is "born-again". The redemptive quality in man
must not be sought in the incarnation of God in Christ, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Holy Scriptures or in faith through grace, but rather in the self-conscious seat of his own divinity. In other words, the fulness of divine self-consciousness is the source and evidence of the Gnostic’s "New Birth".
6. Divinity is Sought Within
To the Gnostic the mystery of God was already unveiled (at least in secret) long before the birth of Jesus Christ and even before the Scriptures were written. In fact, they say it was revealed and buried in man before the creation of the world. Therefore, the only way for man to know about God is through gnosis (self knowledge). As a result, he will experience and know the Divine Spark within himself and know he is a member of the Elite - a Manifest Son of God. "He who exalts and prizes above everything else, the Divine Spark within himself and sincerely believes that eternal life is found only in the Divine Element will be certain to come into harmony with all of life and thereby bring into consciousness the Spark of Divinity and so immortalize his soul. . . by obedience to the Divine Law, man attains unto Christhood, becomes the Son of God." (Jacques Lacarriere, THE GNOSTICS, Peter Owen, London, 1977, p. 43). The Gnostic strives to find God in the creation, i.e. in "self" rather than in the Person, Christ, who is the Creator! This pursuit winds up in pantheism.
Perturbing Trends
Unfortunately, Gnostic trends are developing at an alarming rate within the Church. As early as the Second Century, Gnosticism infiltrated Christian theology. Since that time, it has gradually saturated the Church and is now, in these last days exploding not only within the Church, but also within secular institutions. The world is being prepared for a predominant Gnostic religious form, a New Order that will govern a great part of the world before Christ returns.
Because certain popular theological concepts are not being measured and subjected to strict Scriptural scrutiny, Gnosticism is gaining a stronghold. As a result of new theological thought, even fundamental orthodox doctrines are being grossly changed into seed-beds for Gnosticism.

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by wayneman on 2016/4/12 16:25:17

http://theliberatingsecret.org/

Yes, I know Sylvia Pearce and her excellent website. She and several other of Norman Grubb's proteges all live on the same street in Louisville. The whole neighborhood is Union Lifers! Must be a great place to live. They are holding a "God Unlimited" conference in June.

But thank you for notifying me about their new app!

Yeah, the app works much better than the website. Used to be the other way around. I think they just need some prayer in that area.

I have been wanting to go to one of their conferences. I will be in Ohio next week, and should check their schedule. Or just invite them further south. Definitely will check into the June conference.

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wayneman

From "My Fifth and Last Commission," which Norman wrote at age 95:

John in his First Epistle repeated it over and over again: We walk in the light, as He is in the light (1:7). We walk as He walked. (2:6) We know as He knows. (2:27) We live holy lives, as He lived. (3:7) We love as He loves. (4:16) We have a faith that becomes inner knowing as He has (5:4-5), 18-20). And summed up, "As He is, so are we in this world,” (4:17) for the very same Spirit who caused Jesus to know and say who He was (John 14:9) now causes us to know who we are. (Rom. 8:11; John 16:7)

Inner truth was always known through the centuries (read such a book as The Pilgrim Church by E. H. Broadbent), but these true ones were consistently martyred by the external church. They were intercessors for us and did the dying. Now in our generation it is not physical martyrdom and cutting off of heads for most of us, but plenty of cutting off of our reputations as sound or sensible Christians. So we are left physically free to go to the who Church in the whole world.

Now I reach my summit - at least I suppose so, at 95 years - and a last glorious participation in an "intercession in action.” Certainly it is the greatest for me because God, and only God, has brought this worldwide, church-wide commission into being without my having given one thought or plan for it. And as I go to my Lord, I leave behind nothing less that the first sproutings - precious believers knowing who they already are - of a worldwide harvest.

My one hope is that we who are linked in this co-knowing remain as structureless as possible. Being joined to One Body only, the precious redeemed Body of Christ, we have no need for membership, joining or official subscribing. We know only one truth: Christ Himself now living His own life in millions of bodies by the Spirit, until "we all come in the unity of the faith,” in understanding as well as a present Spirit-oneness, to that Perfect Man of Ephesians 4:13.

This last intercession is glorious indeed, but it also includes its very present dying that others may live. There is ostracism and opposition by many, even of the precious people of God, who remain in this confusion of and clinging to the false independent self. The Spirit has to make us ready for that final and highly dangerous looking death, where it remains only He as us. That unpredictable Wind "blows where it lists” in our newborn lives, as I can plainly see in the marvelous unplanned events of just my own life. You may also see where the Spirit has already gained intercessions by you in your own experiences; and you will thus be alive to the glory of such further intercessions, with their
commission, cost and completion.

The death-resurrection principle of intercession (see John 12:24) as the highest of our earthly callings is still known and entered into by only a few of the redeemed members of the Body of Christ. Plainly enough, though, Paul gave us his own experience in Romans 6-8. As he found so painfully and with difficulty in his Romans 7 travail, the "death” of that lie of our being independent selves comes to those of us who will stop at nothing in going what he called that perfect way of Christ as us.

But as we move in by the bold choice of faith (as by the affirmation of Galatians 2:20), the Spirit will bring us that same light of revelation, which Paul had. Inwardly we will "see” our wonderful God-made human selves as solely expressers of His Spirit of Truth in place of that false spirit of error. And we will settle into our true God-ordainedcondition, as out from us shall flow the river of the Spirit, as in John 7:37,38. Nothing then can stop us from joining what Peter calls "the royal priesthood” of intercessors with, as Paul said, "death working in us, but life in you.”

D
docs

/There is a reason that the religious system does not want the Christian to know about these truths. It would be detrimental to their survival.

What are some of these truths that would be so detrimental to the religious system? Have others shared these truths before now?

S
sermonindex


"What are some of these truths that would be so detrimental to the religious system? Have others shared these truths before now?"

They teach that ALL PEOPLE will be saved irregardlesss of their acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Saviour. (Utter lie)

They teach that that is no hell and eternal damnation for unregenerate and unrepentant Christ rejecting sinners. (totally false)

They teach "there is only One Person in the universe," "everything is God on a certain level of manifestation (nonsense)

They teach that thing but God exists (so you are God ALSO)

"The founder of InterVarsity, Norman Grubb, testifies in his biography,
. . . from Boehme, most difficult to read because he could not easily put the depths of his illuminations into readable form, I got my answer, and to this day know no writer to match him . . . He is the last word to me . . . I am saying that everything is a form by which He manifests Himself, much as my body is not exactly I, but an outward form of the inner me. This fact, gleaned through Boehme, confirmed through the writings of many others, with the foundations in Scripture, has given me my anchor. [Once Caught, No Escape, Norman Grubb, Intervarsity Press]
Norman Grubb confessed to receiving more from mystic writings than from studying the Bible. Apart from Boehme and William Law, other great mystic writers that proved a spiritual help to him were as follows: Saint Teresa, Meister Eckhart, Henry Suso, John Tauler, John of Rusbroeck, Walter Hilton, Plotinus, Angelus Silesius, Richard Rolle, Lady Julian of Norwich, Evelyn Underhill, William Kingsland and Rufus Jones. These names are well known for their Gnostic and even theosophical ideas. With reference to some of the mystic writers he said, "These are out of bounds to the orthodox; but I have often got more from them than from normal Bible exegesis". According to his own testimony, during a time of severe despair and doubt as to the existence of God, he desperately sought for answers amongs the writings of mystics. "My answer came through the mystics and has been widening ever since", he writes.
Norman Grubb is a typical example of countless others, who for whatever reason, struggled to walk by faith and unfortunately turned to Gnostic ideas (mysticism) to experience a sense of spirituality and a feeling of belonging to God. Like Norman Grubb, numerous Christians, in spite of all of their experiences, are floundering in doubt for lack of faith in God's Word and instead are searching for answers in mysticism - the spirit of Gnosticism. No wonder the masses are receptive to the modern Gnostic apostles and prophets."


These are new truths are only being revealed now through a few illuminated ones,
This deep and secret knowledge has been keep...... well you know secret for so many years that even those who knew it then did not know that what only they knew was being kept hidden from the masses,
Thank religion we can now all share in knowing what we did not know then
because it has been revealed to them in the inner regions of their minds and
this knowledge will free us all from something or other.

A
alamb

Around mid-late 70's and early 80's I met Norman Grubb and attended many meetings that he taught. These meetings were
held in a private home where Norman stayed as their guest. There were probably no more than 10-12 people that attended. Norman was invited to come as their guest for several days, a week maybe, when he needed some rest from his many engagements and busy schedule. During this time, my mother was very good friends with the family where he stayed, so I was invited to go with her to the meetings.(I was in my early 30's then.) My mom was mesmerized by this teacher and read everything he ever wrote until her death in 1985. I had been born again for a very short time and didn't know much about "deep Truth". Norman taught that there really was no "us" anymore since our former self had been crucified at the Cross...the new self wasn't a real "self" but ONLY a container filled with God, living in God and we were now not only like God...we were God! (little Gods) roaming around planet earth. This "revelation" was a big hit with people; mainly because we could just go on and live our everyday life without worrying if what we were doing in life was God's will or not. Because....it was all His will. But remember, we were still Christians and it didn't mean we now had a license to sin. (But it was a sort of get out of jail free card.) Of course there is a whole lot more, like what's in Norman's books. I had a hard time accepting that I was God because I knew somewhere inside that I was most certainly NOT God. I tried to accept and believe but I just never could do it. The thing is that it was so cunning that one had a hard time detecting the lie. Kinda like taking a gallon of pure milk and putting a tiny bit of poison in it, even if you can't taste anything but milk, it's still poison and not fit to drink. My belief is that there is Jesus and there is us. Yes, there is a mystery in that He is in us and we are in Him but that does not mean we are also GOD! I guess like Bear says, these are just my thoughts on the matter. But ever since this thread started, well, I wanted to tell yall what happened to me. No fighting please. If I am wrong, rest assured Jesus will set me straight.
I hope I didn't bore ya.
May our wonderful Lord bless the socks off each one of you.

S
sermonindex

Hi Judy,

I don't have any problem at all regarding what you said. We certainly are not God. I have read a few books and never got that from them, and of course no one can contest your personal experience. I believe you.

I know what Paul means by this:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

And I know what is meant by a "race of christs", (small c), on earth in the proper context.

There are people that take teachings of many men to the extreme. We have seen that with very respected men such as Bob Mumford, Derek Prince and Art Katz. I am not saying you are taking Norman's teachings to the extreme. I believe you when you say you heard these things. I just have not read them. Doesn't mean that I won't, but I would like to see the entire context.

And, you did not bore me. :-) I appreciate your post and your willingness to share and the fact that you shared in a very loving manner. I know that I have been blessed by many of Normans' insights but when we defend men "to the death", we have made them our idol. So, I will take your words and warning seriously and be on the alert (as I always am) when I read anyone's books. As I said, even the most respected men of God are in error, sometimes. We have to test everything against the Word of God.

God bless you and thanks again,
J

S
sermonindex

Carmine brother

I do not believe that Norman Grubb meant that reading the mystics was better than his own Bible readings. I am sure that he meant that it was more profitable than reading the exegesis of the usual writers or evangelicals, who are more than often than not, carnal believers and understand the scriptures in a shallow, outer way, missing the great spiritual truths buried away from the blind and deaf.

I have never found Norman Grubb to teach the things he is accused of and unity with Christ is scripturally sound. It is a great mystery that we are joined but still separate and l believe he has been taken the wrong way but those that oppose the Spirit, as has always been the case.

S
sermonindex

Thank you Brenda for expressing what you believe about this mans teachings.
However as many have pointed out this deception is subtle and on the surface
what he taught sounds somewhat biblical. In fact as sister Judy previously posted by personal experience this man became spiritually unhinged later in life
and deviated from the Word of God significantly.

S
sermonindex

Carmine, where are you cutting and pasting this stuff from? Is it just Calvinist discernment sites or are you just making it up?

D
docs

"What are some of these truths that would be so detrimental to the religious system? Have others shared these truths before now?"

/They teach that ALL PEOPLE will be saved irregardlesss of their acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Saviour. (Utter lie)

/They teach that that is no hell and eternal damnation for unregenerate and unrepentant Christ rejecting sinners. (totally false) (END)

Where did Grubb and the others say and write these things? Are there references where they plainly stated these things?

S
sermonindex

Grubb became an apostate later in life as you now know. I understood beforehand also by the Spirit and the Word over 25 years ago.. And also the sister Judy confirmed by her personal witness and testimony. Powerful stuff.
The internet brought nothing to what was already understood except to confirm what was already been shown,
Sad that you and others endorsed this apostasy without even looking and praying about it.

S
sermonindex

Carmine,
Just as I suspected, you have nothing. You just revel in tearing down men of God with whom you disagree.

Nothing in the original post contains anything of which you describe, yet you felt that it was perfectly acceptable to come into this thread and trash Notman Grubb. That sir is despicable and you should have been sent to the time out room a long time ago to have a long hard think about yourself.

S
sermonindex

SI would have pulled Norman's material a long time ago if these slanderous accusations had any basis of truth.

W
wayneman

Mark,

I love your term "Calvinist discernment sites." I call them "heresy-hunters." They call themselves "Watchmen on the Walls of Zion." Whatever we call them, there seem to be millions of them!

Norman Grubb rejected pantheism and universalism, but after he died some of his friends did in fact fall into these errors. Here in Michigan we have a ministry called Union Life Retreats, which took up universalism and thereby lost most of its people. Now they have about 8-10 attending their quarterly "conferences." Like the Calvinist Discernment Specialists, universalists seem to spend most of their time lobbing bombs at people who disagree with them.

If we condemn Norman for things his wayward disciples teach, we can condemn Paul by the same standard. His doctrine of salvation by faith has been misunderstood and misused for 20 centuries. Church father Tertullian called him "the Apostle to the heretics."

P
proudpapa

RE: ///where are you cutting and pasting this stuff from? Is it just Calvinist discernment sites or are you just making it up?///

part of what he pasted can be found at :
http://www.discernment-ministries.org/Newsletters/NL1991Aug.pdf

I do not know anything about Grubb but I just love many of Roy Hessions sermons here on SI

S
sermonindex

Brother Wayne, defending the innocent is pleasing to the Lord...your words are like soothing rain:-)

I remember the first time standing amongst a group of hard core Calvinists and uttering the name Charles Finney. Before I could hardly finish my sentence the knives were out and this man of God was torn to pieces. I was in shock and had no idea at all why they hated such a precious man of God. That incident (along with many others) taught me much about the "spirit" behind many of these "Calvinistas".

S
sermonindex

And they love to have it so.

"Norman taught that there really was no "us" anymore since our former self had been crucified at the Cross...the new self wasn't a real "self" but ONLY a container filled with God, living in God and we were now not only like God...we were God! (little Gods) roaming around planet earth.

This "revelation" was a big hit with people; mainly because we could just go on and live our everyday life without worrying if what we were doing in life was God's will or not. Because....it was all His will. But remember, we were still Christians and it didn't mean we now had a license to sin. (But it was a sort of get out of jail free card.) Of course there is a whole lot more, like what's in Norman's books. I had a hard time accepting that I was God because I knew somewhere inside that I was most certainly NOT God. I tried to accept and believe but I just never could do it. "

S
sermonindex

Edit: I had to pull this info regarding Barbara Aho's run-in with Jewel van der Merwe. Not that there was not any truth in it. I just had not vetted it enough and there seemed to be too much mixture in both camps.

S
sermonindex

Quote by Norman Grubb

"Nothing exists outside of God-Father,Son,and Spirit. Therefore the only sin is unbelief-which is negative believing(John16:9 and Romans14:23)-seeing things and people and all situations as though separate from God.Negative seeing and believing causes us to be judgmental,fearful and defeatist,always transmitting to others what ourselves inwardly see.To us the total truth of the union life message and personal witness is the replaced life and seeing God only in all things and peoples."

"He in my Branch,Spirit forms-Christ,indeed the whole Trinity,in my human form."

New age gnostic scripture twisting gibberish.

S
sermonindex

Carmine, it doesn't help you at all, while in the act of smearing someone, to quote them without providing any references. And cutting and pasting from discernment blogs doesn't -um - cut it:-)

How else do you expect to achieve the all important goal of winning the argument:-)

If you have nothing, please hang it up and move on to better uses of your time. Actually that's not a bad thing to do even if you manage to find something after a few more days of this neurotic, witch hunt, smear campaign against Norman Grubb.

This thread started with a positive, sound and encouraging word from brother Grubb, yet you seem obsessed with derailing it.

For the love of God brother...please stop!

S
sermonindex

Mark

Stop defending the indefensible. makes you look like you have no discernment
or wisdom whatsoever.

The quote was a directly taken from Grubbs heretical writings. Look it up if you
have the time.

S
sermonindex

Carmen, I will leave you to your unsupported smearing. You have been given enough rope to hang yourself and you just did...when you are called out you resort to calling people fools. That's all I needed to hear to know what kind of person you are.

S
sermonindex

Posted for reference only. This article is extreme heresy and a terrible twisting
of God's revealed truth on numerous levels. Mind boggling how a man like this fell
so far and misled so many in later life. A warning for all us to not add or subtract from the Scriptures.

Okay Mark here is the entire article: (nice edit Mark , now let the back peddling begin)

TOTAL TRUTH
BY: NORMAN P. GRUBB
The truth of our union with Christ gives us a tremendous boldness. Our confidence comes from an inner witness of the Spirit to two biblical and Spirit-confirmed truths, which we are called to emphasize to God’s born- again family. We are bold to call these two truths total truth. The first is a personal truth, and the second is a universal truth.
The personal truth is that the revealed fact of our being in Him and He in us is a conscious union. This means that I no longer see myself as a separate person in a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, but as one, as Branch in the Vine, as a Body member in the Head, as Spirit joined to Spirit. I am consciously He in my Branch-Body-Spirit forms ”” Christ, indeed the whole Trinity, in my human form.
I am not I dependent on Him, but He permanently expressed by me. And so I live spontaneously on this inner fixed fact by the Word, inwardly confirmed by the Spirit. This means that I live my daily outer life as if I am just myself, in total freedom, yet with the inner permanent sub-conscious reality that it is He living my life (the hidden truth of Colossians 3:4 and Galatians 2:20). This is total truth #1 ”” the replaced life.
The second truth, the universal truth, is the revelation that all are expressions of God ”” whether things or persons (Romans 1:20 and Acts 17:28); whether in their negative (misused) forms (such as in Romans 8:20), or in their positive, right forms (the righteousness and higher ways of God as expressed II Corinthians 5:21).
This means that I see God in everything, good or evil ”” good in His grace forms, evil in His wrath forms. Therefore we see positively in everything and everybody. When we see "evil” forms, we see God meaning persons in their freedom to be what they fully are in their present misuse of themselves; and that He purposes through the corrupting effect of their misuse (Galatians 6:7,8) to condition them for seeking and receiving His grace (Luke 15 ”” the prodigal son ”” and Romans 11:32). When we see "good” forms, we see God in His infinite varieties of self-manifestation (I John 4:17), and in His reproduction of Himself in others. We label this total truth #2 ”” seeing God only in all things and all peoples.
Nothing exists outside of God ”” Father, Son and Spirit. Therefore the only "sin” is unbelief ”” which is negative believing (John 16:9 and Romans 14:23) ”” seeing things and people and all situations as though separate from God. Negative seeing and believing causes us to be judgmental, fearful and defeatist, always transmitting to others what we ourselves in-wardly see. To us the total truth of the union life message and personal witness is the replaced life and seeing God only in all things and all peoples.
But one more truth that we "see” and rejoice in is the total unity of the whole Body of Christ in the glorious Head; we see ourselves as "perfect in one” with all God’s redeemed people. This means that we happily and appreciatively are in union with all who love Jesus. We can be part of all church fellowships, whether of the "established” or independent type, and be honestly thankful for all of the truth in Christ known and preached by each fellowship. We ourselves will add our contribution of total truth revelation as given opportunity.
It is our particular contribution to "the perfecting of the saints,” and the "presenting of every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/pdf/GRUBB,%20NORMAN%20P/TOTAL%20TRUTH%20[Norman%20P.%20Grubb].pdf

W
wayneman

Mark,

Thank you for tricking Carmine into finally posting something edifying!

S
sermonindex

More nonsense by Grubb.

God Only
By Norman Grubb

(God is all. God is you, the devil is a delusion or he is jesus etc, It's all in the mind stupid)


"Just keep on the single path. There is nothing but God-in-love, whether appearances are evil or good. HE ONLY is in all of them. Here is the secret. Thru the Fall we got a divided outlook and see two powers, good and evil, but back in Christ and Christ Universal, we see ONLY ONE, even if He often seems to appear in the devil's guise! The only battle I have to fight is not against circumstances, or problems, or people, or even devil, except the devil interfering with my inner outlook. If he can get me to see evil, then I am controlled by the evil I am seeing and believing in. But if I replace all such negative beliefs in outer appearances by seeing GOD ONLY in all, then I have the faith that overcomes the world!"

W
wayneman

Another great post!

S
sermonindex

EVEN WORSE BLASPHEMY by Grubb

(He says he is the I AM and so are you the I AM, God almighty that is- insanity)


So live in today and be sure you don't see as evil what always in this evil world coming to us as evil. Be sure you turn it around and see it only as an expression in which God is showing you some new phase of His goodness. Through the Spirit of praise, you may do the works of God. That's the I AM. SO the I AM is the eternal now and he eternal total sufficiency because you can tack any name you like after I AM, just as Jesus did. We are now the I AM's. He is the Father I AM, we are the son I AM. This is the wonder of the liberation, 'I AM.' And, of course, I have found the secret now. My I AM is His I AM, expressed by my I AM. This is the hidden paradox."

S
sermonindex

No context, no references at all.

Mike, Wayne, it is obvious that "Lyin Rev" is trying to get the thread shut down. Interesting, that he does not publicly petition Greg to remove Norman's audios, and his discernment comes from a discernment site that battles against other "discernment sites".

You just have to ignore him and continue. I know it is hard, but from experience can tell you that it can be done. Like eating ribs outside with a couple of flies bothering you. You're still gonna eat those ribs.

Let's try to get back on topic. Wayne started it off great and Norman is very Christ centered.

S
sermonindex

lol Wayne:-)

Actually if anyone wants to read an amazingly edifying book get a hold of a copy of, "The Deep Things of God".

http://www.amazon.com/The-Deep-Things-Norman-Grubb/dp/0966295730


S
sermonindex

"Like eating ribs outside with a couple of flies bothering you."

But it is sooooo hard to ignore those flies brother:-)

I need more self control it seems.

I can do this...thank you for the advice Julius!

S
sermonindex

Julius21 coming from you indicates I am on the right path
And if you call me a lier do it to my face you gutless spineless
anti-semitic coward

S
sermonindex

I have just read Paul's Key to the Liberated Life: Romans Six to Eight by Grubb and it is a very good read.

S
sermonindex

Nice mocking post Mark, You and satan's servant work well together

S
sermonindex

Brenda, the truths in the book alone, if grasped by the average church goer will put religion and the dependence on man out of business. All the religious programs to get free from sin and self, disintegrate into dust in the light of God's Word. The truths in this teaching give hope to those who are embroiled in an endless struggle.

http://www.normangrubb.com/Paul's%20Key%20to%20the%20Liberated%20Life.htm

S
sermonindex

And if Julius21 recommends something you KNOW satan endorses it as well

S
sermonindex

Amen Julius!

S
sermonindex

Mark wrote:


Like eating ribs outside with a couple of flies bothering you."

But it is sooooo hard to ignore those flies brother:-)

I need more self control it seems.

I can do this...thank you for the advice Julius!

Your post is very funny in the manner you ridicule and belittle the Rev. because he does not drink the koolade.


and Julious wrote

"Mike, Wayne, it is obvious that "Lyin Rev" is trying to get the thread shut down."

you two as the Rev said work well together

S
sermonindex

well you can call it what you want brother but I think that making light of this to avoid arguing is much better than flogging a dead horse and arguing endlessly. My sentiments are truthful, I have a hard time not "swatting at flies", as in not responding to divisive, argumentative comments.

Since you are so bothered by this thread and seem to think that a reference to swatting flies is belittling others, what do you think about someone calling a brother an anti-semite and a servant of satan? Does that bother you at all?

No wonder so few people comment on this forum...the nonsense that goes on here makes you want to hit your face against a wall:-)

M
makrothumia

If we are Christ centered - perhaps we should once again center in on this - "who being reviled, reviled not again, but as a lamb before the shearer was silent."


Mak

S
sermonindex

Yes, agreed brother Alan...and in his defense this is how I believe brother Julius behaves on this forum, and is a good example to all considering the names he is called.

S
sermonindex

You were mocking the Rev, Mark and your excuse is rather lame. And BTW he is correct regarding the false doctrines
that Mr Grubb deviated to in his later years.

Oh and Mr Julious attacked Rev first. He seems to get into
trouble with a lot of the posters here all the time.
Yesterday it was JeffMarshall, before that Neil, With me
and the Rev as well. Strange .

S
sermonindex

You are correct brother, I was mocking Carmine in agreeing that his posts are a distraction, like annoying flies.

I apologize Carmine.

S
sermonindex

You are forgiven Mark and I do offer my apology to you. You do not have
the same spirit as the other person.
Many people read these forums and my motive was to give warning
regarding the serious heresies that Grubb taught. However after looking
at previous threads regarding him on SI many of the people here were already extremely wary of his doctrines .

S
sermonindex

Mark, it's ok. I do appreciate your defense and docs who has also been gracious. And others who are not afraid to express their beliefs such as Brenda and Proudpapa and Wayneman and Oracio (miss him). All of you, very beloved brethren. I just read 2 Tim 4:14-18 and have to remember the Lord is my defense, though it is comforting to hear from brethren. One thing I have learned is that if you say one thing in return, it is latched upon and trumpeted up as the most horrible attack there has been, even though their attacks have been violently, non-stop. Anyway, God does not beget "Crusaders" and we should once again try to get back to the topic. An ignore button would be awesome, but instead you will have to pretend there is one.

Can we just agree to put them on ignore from now on, regardless of the thread until they choose to behave differently? In this way, we can be a self-moderating forum. We don't have to pay any attention to them. To be sure, they will attack in outrageous fashion and the purpose of it all is to get you to engage with them. It is a colossal waste of time, don't you think?

M
makrothumia

Knowledge "puffs up" - creating a swelling of thought and emotion that presses or urges us to answer rapidly. This is a danger, for we are to be quick to hear and slow to speak. The heart of the righteous study's before answering.

Brothers observe how quickly the responses have been coming, like the swelling of a thunder head where the updraft carries water so high it becomes ice. If the storm had enough energy the ice continues upward gathering greater dimension, becoming heavier and heavier before "all hail breaks loose." This just happened last night in San Antonio and the results will be on the news if you want to see what a "hail" storm looks like.

Swelling thoughts occur Ina charged atmosphere, where cold and hot air clashes. It is apparent that knowledge has "puffed up", and created a swelling. The atmosphere of this site has become charged with a lot of energy. If we doubt that we have become "puffed up", simply examine what Paul said would be the result - "biting and devouring one another."

If we carry offense, perhaps because over a long time a fellow poster has been posting things that "bother" , "stir" or "provoke" us - this is the subtle energy that forms the storm of words that produces the "hail"!

Have we forgotten that "the Judge is at the door!"

Even if our "judgment is "right" - we may forget - mercy triumphs over judgment and judgment without mercy will be shown (not to the one who was "wrong") but the one who failed to be merciful.

Mak

S
sermonindex

Maybe you could leave Sermon Index Julius for an extended season . Many would be very pleased.
Then you could repent and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour and you could come back later with the Holy Spirit indwelling and directing you . I do believe in miracles.

S
sermonindex

Norman Grubb rejected pantheism and universalism, but after he died some of his friends did in fact fall into these errors. Here in Michigan we have a ministry called Union Life Retreats, which took up universalism and thereby lost most of its people. Now they have about 8-10 attending their quarterly "conferences." Like the Calvinist Discernment Specialists, universalists seem to spend most of their time lobbing bombs at people who disagree with them.

If we condemn Norman for things his wayward disciples teach, we can condemn Paul by the same standard. His doctrine of salvation by faith has been misunderstood and misused for 20 centuries. Church father Tertullian called him "the Apostle to the heretics."

I think what was shared in this post gives alot of balance to any accusations of doctrine. Of course there needs to be caution and it seemed later in his life he dabbled too far away from orthodox christian belief but it seems he did reject the outcome of his thinking but sadly "SOME" of his followers did not and continued to take his thinking to the logical end, or at least to them it was the logical end.

So we need to be very cautious and careful to come brothers even for something they wrote at "one point" in their walk. There is aways a context, circumstances and I have not met many godly men who do not wise to edit, revoke or change some things they have said earlier in their ministry and walks.

Also to state the obvious but perhaps not for all at this point, we do not condone personal attacking, name-calling or the type of discussions that are occurring in this thread. If anyone wants to persist in this way then perhaps they need to realize they will in the end really not be welcome in this community to act in this way. It really tarnishes the name of Christ, the godly saints that are archived here and hurts others in the body of Christ.

The community guidelines can be reviewed here: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44556&forum=13

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