Just "Normal" earthquake activity?

Dozens Of Large Earthquakes Strike As Speculation Mounts That Japan’s Southern Island May Split
By Michael Snyder, on April 17th, 2016
Over the past 48 hours, our planet has been hit by literally dozens of earthquakes of magnitude 4.0 or greater, and scientists are acknowledging that what is taking place is highly unusual. This strange shaking began toward the end of last week when the globe was struck by five major earthquakes over the space of just two days, and over the weekend the seismic activity just continued to escalate. Very early on Saturday, Japan’s southern island of Kyushu was hit by a magnitude 7.3 earthquake, and on Saturday night a magnitude 7.8 earthquake struck off Ecuador’s Pacific coast. It was the worst earthquake that Ecuador had experienced since 1979, and it was followed by at least 163 aftershocks. Unfortunately, there are indications that what we have seen so far may be just the beginning.

Because the Ecuador earthquake was bigger, it is getting most of the headlines at the moment, but the truth is that what is going on in Japan is potentially far more dangerous.

Over the past week, Japan’s southern Island of Kyushu has been rocked by a series of devastating quakes, including two major ones in less than 48 hours. The following comes from the Guardian…

A second major earthquake in less than two days has shaken Japan’s southern island of Kyushu, with at least 34 people thought to have been killed, about 1,500 injured and more feared buried after building collapses and landslides.

The 7.3 magnitude earthquake struck at about 1.30am on Saturday, waking people across the island ”“ including the thousands already in crisis centres. It caused widespread damage, with several landslides and a village evacuated over fears a dam might burst.

The mainstream media in the United States is using the term "landslides” to describe what has happened all over Kyushu, but the truth is that in many instances it would be far more accurate to say that "giant cracks” or "vast chasms” have formed. The geography of Japan’s southern island has been fundamentally transformed, and this is beginning to cause huge concerns. Here is more from the Guardian…

One major landslide tore open a mountainside in Minamiaso village in Kumamoto prefecture, destroying a key bridge that could cut off food and other relief transport to the worst-hit area.

Another landslide hit a road, collapsing a house that fell down a ravine. In another part of the village, houses were left hanging precariously at the edge of a huge hole.

I want to show you a map which comes directly from the U.S. Geological Survey. This map shows all of the earthquakes of magnitude 2.5 or greater that have hit Japan’s southern island over the past week. As you look at this map, do you see a pattern?…

Kyushu Earthquakes

The dozens of earthquakes that have hit Japan’s southern island over the past week appear to form something of a straight line that divides the island in two. Many are now speculating that geological forces are beginning to tear Kyushu in half, and if that is true, the earthquake activity that we have seen in Japan so far is probably just the tip of the iceberg.

We could potentially be talking about an event that could ultimately have far more of an impact on Japan than the tsunami of 2011. By the time it is all said and done, entire cities could be wiped off the map and millions upon millions of Japanese citizens could be displaced.

Already, the seismic activity that has rocked Kyushu is having quite an impact on the Japanese economy…

Earlier today Toyota was one of many Japanese companies to announce that it will suspend most car production across Japan as a result of critical supply chain disruptions caused by the recent destructive earthquake and numerous aftershocks. All of the major assembly lines will be shut down across its four directly-run plants, and Toyota will be halting production in stages at other group companies as well.

According to the Nikkei Asian Review, most of the Toyota group in Japan will be effectively shut down through at least the end of this upcoming week, with a production loss of as many as 50,000 vehicles, including brands such as Prius, Lexus, and Land Cruiser.

Our planet resembles something of a giant cracked egg, and the enormous tectonic plates that we are all living on are constantly in motion. So if Japan’s southern island is in the process of slowly splitting in half, that shouldn’t exactly be a surprise. After all, scientists assure us that Los Angeles and San Francisco will be directly next to one another someday.

And it isn’t just Japan that we need to be concerned about. All along the "Ring of Fire”, seismic activity is increasing, and this has many of the experts completely puzzled. The following comes from an excellent piece by Alvin Conway…

This has continued to baffle many of the world’s leading geologists, who still attest the rise in the number of large earthquakes is merely a random natural occurrence. For instance, the number of large earthquakes doubled in 2014. However, here’s what scientists had to say about it: "If you think there have been more earthquakes than usual this year, you’re right. A new study finds there were more than twice as many big earthquakes in the first quarter of 2014 as compared with the average since 1979.

"We have recently experienced a period that has had one of the highest rates of great earthquakes ever recorded,” said lead study author Tom Parsons, a research geophysicist with the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) in Menlo Park, California.

If you are familiar with my work, then you already know that I believe that we have entered a period of time during which we will see seismic activity on a scale that none of us have ever experienced before.

This great shaking will combine with other factors such as financial collapse, geopolitical instability and civil unrest to produce what many have described as a "perfect storm”. Life as we know it is in the process of fundamentally changing, and right now we are only in the very early chapters of this change.

Unfortunately, most people are ignoring the warnings and will continue to ignore them until it is far too late.

Hardly doubt this is "normal earthquake" activity bro. As I keep saying. God is speaking in the shaking. The question is are we listening?

Let us look up. Our Redemption is drawing nigh.

Brother Blaine

Is this the "shaking" that Hebrews is talking about?

Hebrews 12:25-28
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

TMK,
And again, I asked you what's undeniable & you aren't really sure. I don't doubt the thing from 200 years ago, but birth pangs work that way. One, then one larger, then one closer together, then larger ones & closer together, and on and on until the baby comes forth. I have read a lot from seismologists & they are the ones that would know what's abnormal & they seem to concur that what is going on now is abnormal (& they're the experts in that field, not me - and I don't think anyone else here is a seismologist, geologist or volcanologist, are they?). Again, I think some people can make "anything out of nothing" & likewise others can "turn anything into nothing" through "normalcy bias". But I guess it is what it is, eh? 😊

Julius,
Actually, the initial discussion was on Matthew 24, where Jesus spoke of "earthquakes" and it Was in the context with famines, pestilences, etc., birth pangs, the Day of the Lord, etc. Not Hebrews.
God Bless,
Jeff

My mistake, Jeff. I meant to post that in the "shaking" thread.

Don't you think the spiritual signs are more reliable than the sociological and geological signs? The Holy Spirit speaks much more throughout the NT regarding the spiritual signs (iniquity abounding, love of many waxing cold, brethren betraying brethren false christs, prophets, teachers, brethren, etc, etc) of the Lord's coming.

Jesus said, "when you hear of wars and rumors of war, THESE THINGS MUST COME TO PASS BUT THE END IS NOT YET".

Right after this verse in Matthew 24, He elaborates that nations rising against nations and kingdoms against kingdoms, famines, pestilences and earthquakes are ONLY THE BEGINNING OF SORROWS, but does not tell us when the beginning of sorrows starts.

One can view history of man and recognize that the things Jesus enumerated in the "Beginning of Sorrows" text have been happening since the 1st century. So, have we been in the "Beginning of Sorrows" for the last 2,000 years?

After the Lord talked about the "Beginning of Sorrows", He says this:
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

We know that this took place in the 1st century and increasingly each century, thereafter.

Seems like the Lord is covering the entire time of man since He resurrected and will come back.

Post edited for clarity:

Julius,
God bless friend. Yes, I know "spiritual signs" are important. These can be just as "explained away" too though. "The love of many (most in the original Greek) will grow cold". Well when did that happen exactly? Or has it yet? When we will know it "finally fully manifested? But the fact is, Jesus Christ Himself spoke of great earthquakes in diverse places, famines, pestilences, signs in the heavens above & on the earth below (& the original Greek words used don't point to some atherial "hyper-allegorization" definition, but exactly what it sounds like he said). So, we can "over-spiritualize" anything, but if Jesus spoke, & recorded in scripture, these physical signs marking the end, then we can't just redefine what He said to fit our eschatological paradigm. Sure, the first century Christians had both physical earthquakes & the "spiritual signs" of Persecution, love of many growing cold, etc. But so does this generation on a much larger & much more prevelant scale. So not sure what the point of that is...unless you're alluding again to preterism? Maybe you're not, and if not forgive me, I'm just kinda used to being ready for it - 😊. If Jesus spoke of birth pangs & an increase in these physical geological signs of the earth groaning before His second coming, I take Him at His Word & believe Him & that pretty much settles it for me. I don't have to ignore one group of manifestation signs (physical) for just another (spiritual). So I'm looking for all of the specific signs Jesus spoke of, & awaiting His return, looking for the blessed Hope of His coming, longing for the day that He Himself wipes away every year, & there is no more sickness, sorrow, or death. Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!
God Bless,
Jeff

Acts 1:9-11

Then after He said these things, he was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. They also said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taking up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched him go into heaven.

Brothers did this event as recorded by Luke actually happen in actual physical space time? Luke was a meticulous historian as well as a trained physician. So I think he would deal in facts in the physical realm.. But interested to know what your thoughts are.

Just curious.

Post edited for addition at the end:

And yes, some of these things mean that "THE END IS NOT YET", but they are the beginning of sorrows, the birth pangs (contractions), that are "signs of the times". So they aren't "THE END", but the events that immediately precede the end, so they are important markers & indicators too. Obviously the actual Return of Jesus is the point & the blessed hope. It is what I am longing for, looking towards, & awaiting. When I see what look like "contractions" along the way, I do get excited, knowing it is near & could be nearer than we might think. Some may be Bracton-Hicks, but that's ok - what woman wasn't sure if her contractions late were "go time" or strong Braxton Hicks? Is she mocked & made fun of? Told she doesn't know what she's talking about so shouldn't be announcing any contractions until the baby falls out on the floor? 😊 Of course not. Even Braxton Hicks mean it's getting close to the real thing. I hate to overuse this analogy, but it's the one Jesus used in scripture (a woman in labor, birth pangs, etc.) so I figured it was a good one.

And my wife is due this month. Imagine if she shared with me she thought she was having a contraction and I said, "It should be undeniable if it's real!" Or "quit crying wolf! It's either time to have a baby or you're getting all worked up for nothing again!" Or "just shut up until you are certain. I'm going to sleep! Don't wake me unless you KNOW it's a baby coming forth!" How foolish would that attitude be? It would be unwise, proud, & not understanding at all. That's how it can come across sometimes when people point to potential signs of the times and are critiqued, criticized, & put down into oblivion under an electron microscope.

Julias writes............

"Right after this verse in Matthew 24, He elaborates that nations rising against nations and kingdoms against kingdoms, famines, pestilences and earthquakes are ONLY THE BEGINNING OF SORROWS, but does not tell us when the beginning of sorrows starts."

Of course He tells us, you just quoted Him telling us. You might not understand it Julias or it may not fit into your particular "ism," but He says that when nations rise against nations and kingdoms rise against kingdoms, this is the beginning of sorrows. So there you are, that is the beginning :)

"After the Lord talked about the "Beginning of Sorrows", He says this: Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. We know that this took place in the 1st century and increasingly each century, thereafter."

I love the way you write " We know that this took place in the 1st Century."

Who is the "we," Julias? Are you speaking for us all collectively or are you speaking of people of your " ism?"

Christians have never been hated by " all nations," for His name sake. They have been hated by this nation and that nation or this group or that group but they have never been hated by all nations this is yet to come and is certainly on the horizon. Bro Blaine could tell you that out of just over 200 nations, Christians are now persecuted in over 160 nations. This is the greatest persecution that we have seen but it is still not " all nations." This is yet to come.

I appreciate brother that you have a certain theological paradigm and everything has to be shaped to fit that view, actually all "isms," do that. They take a theological grid and place it over Scripture then bend the Scriptures to make it fit their own views.

You are entitled to your viewpoint bro Julias just as people are entitled to disagree with it. In the end agreeing to disagree when there is an impasse is a great place to be. It takes all the sophistry out of it and leaves it in the hands of the Lord. I think the more mature we become in the Lord the quicker we get to the point of realizing if a conversation is bearing fruit or not or just simply divisive. It;s a learning curve that we are all somewhere on.............bro Frank

Julius,
God bless friend. Yes, I know "spiritual signs" are important. These can be just as "explained away" too though.

Hey there, Jeff. I am not trying to "explain anything away", just noting that Jesus and the Apostles (especially the Apostles spoke more often of spiritual signs). In fact, right off hand, I don't recall the Apostles speaking of any physical signs. I wonder why?

"The love of many (most in the original Greek) will grow cold". Well when did that happen exactly? Or has it yet?

Reading historical accounts of Christianity it seems that "the love of many waxing cold", seems to be a recurring theme during bouts of great persecution in the past and the parallel betrayal from false brethren throughout the centuries. Even in the Book of Revelation, Jesus is speaking to churches of that time whose love has become cold. Actually, neither cold nor hot, but lukewarm, which is worse.

Of course, each day that goes by, we are one day closer to the end which no one knows, exactly. We don't know the hour or the day, and Jesus said, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."

But the fact is, Jesus Christ Himself spoke of gray earthquakes in diverse places, famines, pestilences, signs in the heavens above & on the earth below (& the original Greek words used don't point to some atherial "hyper-allegorization" definition, but exactly what it sounds like he said).

Yeah, I am not discounting the fact that posters in this thread are talking about real earthquakes. We certainly have had some real bad ones and they do seem to be increasing. We have also had tsunami's and volcanoes, hurricanes other things. And even though Scripture does use the word "earthquake" in other places in the Bible as figurative language, I do believe in the context that Jesus was speaking, He was speaking about real, geological earthquakes. So, I am tracking with you on that and to tell you the truth the only eschatological paradigm that I have is that Jesus said, "occupy till I come" and that one day, (whether I am here or not), He will come so be ready (spiritually), now. In the meantime, He told me to "take heed that no man deceive you" and that many terrible things will happen, "but the end is not yet."

One thing he does say in referring to (approximately) when "the end will come", is that "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Matt 24:14)

Sure, the first century Christians had physical earthquakes & the "spiritual signs" of Persecution, love of many growing cold, etc. But so does this generation on a much larger & much more prevalent scale. So not sure what the point of that is...unless you're alluding again to preterism?

Of course. Like I said, every day we are one day closer to the end. To Jesus coming back and the heavens and the earth being dissolved (2 Pet 3:10). I'm not a Preterist so I don't know what relevance that has.

I am just saying that today we see more of these geological signs than presumably, ever before. So, does that mean these are the days, or will there be even worse days 40 years from now where these geological upheavals are even worse than today? Who is the expert that says in our day, these signs are the worst they have ever been and they won't get any more terrible 20-40 years from now? Presumably, since the "earth is groaning", these signs will be worse in 40 years.

Many have tried in every generation to pin point when the Lord is coming back and to read the "signs". No one has ever been able to time the Lord's return as everyone has thought they are living in the "Last Days", and they were right, they were living in the Last Days. Scripture tells us the Last Days started after the Lord's resurrection.

Many now think the Lord is returning in 2018. Scientists predicted the worst solar storm in 150 years in 2012. And there have been a high number of recent devastating hurricanes, and the killer Tsunami in December of 2004. There have been many wars and rumors of wars over the past 100 years and China boasts a military of over 200,000,000 men. There are more nuclear threats today than ever, and the genetics nightmare is just getting started not only with our food sources but animals and humans.

So, I definitely agree that obviously things are degenerating on earth and I have not even spoken about how things are degenerating sociologically and spiritually. Things that we never would have believed would happen 20 years ago.

Do I think the end is coming soon? Yes, I do. But it could be 20 years from now or more or less. I see a lot of false belief systems being formed around eschatology and I think we must be CAREFUL not to violate the Lord's warning to set any dates, lest we end up like the 10,000 Millerites back in 1844 who gave away their possessions, quit their jobs, sold their homes, and were greatly embarrassed when the Lord didn't return in 1844. So they instead started the Seventh-Day Adventist false religion to save-face. Seventh-Day Adventism won't save you.

The Scriptures say that we should "encourage one another and so much the more as we see the day approaching".

The fact that the Lord has not come, shows my how great His patience, mercy and compassion are. I think we can all take advantage of this "extra" time we have to make sure our lamps are full of oil and that we are adhering to Jude 1:22-23.

And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. (Jude 1:22-23)

Hey Julius,
A few things in response:

1.) The apostles didn't mention physical signs because Jesus had set out those end time prophecies & it wasn't for their day immediately, so why would they mention it? Jesus already had.

2.) kinda Funny you should mention Acts 1:7, where Jesus says, "it's not for you to know the times or seasons my Father has set" because IN CONTEXT, that's Jesus answering the apostles on "when will the kingdom be restored to Israel". You may reinterpret that to fit your belief (I take it all at face value), but it certainly had NOTHING to do with physical signs or the like, but when the kingdom would be restored to Israel.

3.) I have never set a date. Ever. I do believe some of the recent things in the past year or so were significant prophetically, but I have never set a date. And furthermore, Jesus said "no man knows The DAY nor the HOUR", but he rebuked the Pharisees for "NOT DISCERNING THE SIGNS OF THE TIMES." So while we can't pinpoint a date, we can see the big picture of the signs in prophecy.

4.) When someone mentions potential signs of the times & immediatey the Millerites, Harold Camping, David Koresh, or some other false cults are thrown out there in their face, it's disheartening & disingenuous. You may not mean it that way, but counterfeits don't nullify what is genuine, but actually confirm it (that's why counterfeiters counterfeit 100's cause the real ones have real, substantial value). And the devil, the "counterfeiter" (deceiver), knows this.
Anyways, God Bless!
Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Thanks I appreciate your response. I am not ascribing to any "ism", just trying to understand the Word. I have seen good Christians deceived through the years and you do know that Jesus and Paul and the other apostles warned true Christians about deception all the time. Who is to say that many of the Millerites were not true believers?

So many have been deceived. I wonder how many of them were sincere believers?
https://www.raptureready.com/rr-date-setters.html

A lot of mainstream Christian leaders have built end-times ministries such as Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, and others. Sorry, I don't keep up with the newer ones.

One thing we do agree on is that today, we are one day closer.

Hallelujah! Our redemption is drawing nigh!

Julius,
Thanks. I am not 100% sure anyone necessarily has ALL of the exact specific details figured out completely without any wrong understanding on anything (we all see in part & even prophesy in part as looking through a glass dimly - 1 Corinthians 13)? Maybe? I'm not certain. That's not an excuse to disregard the whole conversation, but an observation that we all may be wrong on some things in some areas.

But, IN CONTEXT, the warnings in scripture concerning, "beware that no man deceives you" is immediately followed with "many will come in my name claiming to be the Christ & deceive many". This has to do without a totally false antichrist religious teaching, not a potential misunderstanding of some eschatological/prophetic passage.

Or statements concerning false teachers & false prophets speaks of the bad fruit they produce & certain things that mark them (covetousness, fleecing the flock, murderous & adulterous hearts manifesting in their behavior, etc.). These passages aren't talking about someone not having their "eschatological chart" just right on every point. Context matters. While I disagree severely with Tim Lahaye, Hal Lindsey, & others, I don't think they are necessarily "wolves" or "false prophets/teachers" Biblically speaking. I think they were men who misunderstood certain aspects of scripture, particularly eschatology & prophecy.

When we quote verses, we can't apply them to anything & everything outside of what they were speaking to in their original context. I am sure you know this & don't intend to "insult your intelligence", but just a reminder to us all to look at the Word in context.

God Bless!
Jeff

Thanks, Jeff.

Have a blessed day.

You too friend.
God Bless,
Jeff

Appolas states:

Bro Blaine could tell you that out of just over 200 nations, Christians are now persecuted in over 160 nations. This is the greatest persecution that we have seen but it is still not " all nations." This is yet to come.

So, you are saying we are supposed to keep count and once it reaches 200, Jesus is imminent?

What defines a nation as hating Christians? Everyone banning Christians and calling for their death? If Christians are persecuted in a nation by some people does that mean the whole nation is calling for their death?

It looks like you or Blane are defining it in this way: if one Christian is being persecuted then the nation they are from falls into the "all nation", category.

Just need some clarity if I am going to keep count.

Hi Julias,

" All Nations," seems pretty self explanatory.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake...............bro Frank

Julius why are you so sarcastic for those of us who believe in the soon return of Jesus Christ? I think you would be rejoicing that Jesus is coming soon. But whenever anyone of us posts about His soon return. You get cynical and sarcastic. Or am I misreading your posts.

Question is respectfully asked?

by appolus on 2016/4/19 15:35:37

" All Nations," seems pretty self explanatory.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake...............bro Frank

Ok, well I am not waiting for it to be every single geo-political nation. And why is that?

Because of how "nations" are referred to in the Bible and what is meant by "nations".

In the following context, nation or nations mean people or peoples not countries or governments.

And the LORD said unto her, Two NATIONS are in thy womb, and TWO MANNER OF PEOPLE shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.Genesis 25:23

Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that THIS NATION IS THY PEOPLE. Exodus 33:13

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them…. I am the LORD your God, which have separated you FROM OTHER PEOPLE. And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you FROM OTHER PEOPLE, that ye should be mine. Leviticus 20:23-26

But, as we see in the NT, in this verse (Matt 21:43) the word "nation” has two primary connotations. In both cases, the focus is on people, not governments or borders of a country. In the first example (Mt. 21:43), after Jesus told the parable of the vineyard, He warns that the kingdom of God was about to be taken from those who outwardly rejected Him and given to those who received Him. Since we know that Jesus is not referring to Egypt or Syria or any other physical nation with borders, we can only conclude He means the church (people of all languages, tribes, tongues, nations).

From other scriptures we can surmise that Jesus is talking about gathering ALL PEOPLE.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all NATIONS (people): and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world…. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:31-34, 41

Obviously, He is separating individuals and not geo-political nations. It is obviously the last day judgment and He is addressing people.

Go ye therefore, and teach all NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:19

Governments and borders cannot be baptized or taught; He is referring to people, here.

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Revelation 5:9f

God promises in Revelation not to save the nations, but save His people out of the nations, and make them kings.

The second meaning of the word "nation” appears to be a synonym for the word "Gentiles”, as shown in this passage:

Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Matthew 6:31-33

The words "nations” and "Gentiles” are sometimes used interchangeably in English translations. In those cases "the nations” refers to all nations except for Israel. What you have then in the New Testament, is "the nations” (the Gentiles) and THE nation, the people of God. This was true of the church in the Old Testament as well as in the New.

Only in Christ do individuals truly become a people, under one king, the Lord Jesus Christ. It is fitting then, that the people of God would be physically scattered among the Gentiles and yet spiritually gathered out of them to become a distinct people, a holy nation.

With all this in mind, do you still think that Jesus Christ is speaking about every geo-political country on earth hating Christians? If so, I'm glad someone is keeping count.

by bearmaster on 2016/4/19 16:00:54

Julius why are you so sarcastic for those of us who believe in the soon return of Jesus Christ? I think you would be rejoicing that Jesus is coming soon. But whenever anyone of us posts about His soon return. You get cynical and sarcastic. Or am I misreading your posts.

Question is respectfully asked?

Hi Bear,

You are misreading my posts. I too am excited. I was trying to make a point that Jesus was not talking about geo-political boundaries (modern day nations). My follow-up post gives the OT and NT definition of "nations". We have to go with biblical language, Blane.

The saints "under the altar", also asked the Lord "when will you avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Notice that Jesus did not say, 1) when all nations hate you 2) when there are more earthquakes 3) when the spirit of Satan possesses a man, etc, etc. (By the way, the scriptures do say, "then Satan entered into Judas". So, that already happened).

No, Jesus said, they needed to "rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

In other words, we have no idea what a "little season" is. Everything is in God's hands and timing.

Hi Julias

The Greek word for nation is ethnos, its where we get our word ethnic. It simply means race or tribe. And so,in the end, every race and every tribe on earth, the whole world, will hate Christians.............bro Frank

Yes, apollas,

Now that we agree "nations" mean "people", think about what has to happen in this world for ALL people to turn against Christians.

Great talking with you.

HI Julias,

Just for clarity, it does not mean people, it means tribes and races. Why is that important? Well people have always hated Christians and so using that term can dilute what it actually means. When every tribe and every race in the world turn against and hate Christians, well, that is something we have never seen before. What has to happen for that to happen. Well we have laid out a number of very plausible easy to understand scenarios of how that can unfold and how the world even as we speak is already primed to hate genuine saints as opposed to those who will be part of the end time apostate church, the great whore church.Glad we agree on something :) .........bro Frank

Yeah, that's fine. Tribes and races are ok. It's still people.

John 15:18

If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you.

1 John 5:19

We know that we are of God and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Brother we can get caught up in arguing over what the word "nations" means. But then we lose sight of what Jesus is saying in Matthew 24:9. Jesus tells us that you will be hated by "all nations" because of my name. In Matthew 10:22 Jesus says you will be hated by "all" because of my name.

So whether you use the term nations, people, or world, the message is clear. There will be a global hatred of the followers of Christ. And it will be worldwide.

I only use the term geopolitical entities for descriptive purposes only. The United Nations estimates there probably about 193 geopolitical entities called Nations. Give or take as few political boundaries are always shifting. It is estimated that at least 150 of these geopolitical entities called nations manifest some hostility toward Christians. And the number continues to grow.

Even in America, a hostility toward Christians is developing. I see this manifesting into a worldwide hatred toward the followers of Christ. I see this as a fulfillment of the prophecy of Jesus in Matthew 24 and Mark 10.

As the World grows darker and more the world is given over to Satan. Then there will certainly come a global hatred of Christians. And that will lead to global nartyrdom of the followers in Christ.

My thoughts.

I think it is safe to say when that happens we will all know it. Won't be anything hidden or subtle about it for those who love the brethren.

Bro somehow I thought I could just see you dancing in front of your keyboard when you were typing that post. :-)

Oh dear Jesus come soon, come soon. :-)

Bro Todd wrote .....

"I will admit that being so far removed from those days that perhaps I am not living on the edge of expectation like those men did.Lord, forgive us for our unexpectancy. We long to see you, face to face."

Great humility in that statement bro Todd..........bro Frank

Julias, I wrote this to you in a previous post.......

"It takes all the sophistry out of it and leaves it in the hands of the Lord. I think the more mature we become in the Lord the quicker we get to the point of realizing if a conversation is bearing fruit or not or just simply divisive. It;s a learning curve that we are all somewhere on."

In the spirit of that statement I am going to leave the conversation on what Jesus meant in Matt 24 when He said all nations. We have each had our say and folks can read for themselves Matt 24 and the spirit of our answers and opinions..............God bless you bro Julias..........bro Frank

Like everyone else I often wonder how soon our Lords return shall be, when we hear of these continuing "birth pangs". But I cannot help but wonder what it would have been like for believers in Germany and other parts of Europe in the middle of the second world war?

We become intrigued at a few little things here and there (comparatively speaking)...so what on earth must they have been going through as they saw the rise of Hitler and the atrocities he caused? I bet there were a LOT of believers who were convinced that this was the end and that Hitler was the anti-Christ.

And who could have blamed them? Can you imagine what their forums would have looked like if such a thing existed 70 years ago???

Mark,

My point exactly.

We have heard the color commentators and play by play news jockeys for the last 200 years create all kinds off interesting stories and scenarios and they will continue and only get more bizarre. The Lord is coming but not when or how most men are expecting.

I certainly don't fault people for thinking He should have come in the 1st century, or during the Inquisition or during WWII. During the Chinese purge of Mao Tse Tung many fell away because the prophecy gurus spread the teaching that they would be raptured and not have to go through tribulation. Corrie Ten Boom documented this.

TIME and time again we are reminded, "the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not".

That is a figure of speech that means we don't know the time.

Just because Jesus did not come back in the 1st century, or middle ages or during the Chinese purge or WWII, does not mean He is delaying His coming, it just means that the Word is right and men are wrong.

Three observations:

1. Prophecy had been used to manipulate people and governments.
2. Prophecy predicting is lucrative (books, movies, conferences)
3. Prophecy gurus have deceived many (just as Jesus warned)

Not only do we look irresponsible by other Christians but silly and foolish by the world. We are looking foolish for the wrong reasons.

I believe the most severe prophecy deceptions are coming if not already here.

The only difference being is that what took place in Germany or China was limited. Mainly confined to that part of the world. Even in places like North Korea. The Believers could very well rightly believe that they are in the end times.

What we see happening with the signs of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are happening on a global scale. We see seismic activity happening on a global scale. We see persecution increasing on a global scale. And I am sure the other signs could be argued to be occurring on a global scale.

Yes I know we want to avoid the extremes of setting dates or times. To avoid the error of the Millerrites or the Harold Campings or the Ed Whisenhunts. But then let us not fall into the error of 2nd Peter 3 where mockers and scoffers say where is the promise of his coming. For all continues just as it was from the beginning.

Actually I think the greatest disbelievers on the second coming of Jesus Christ are among our own ranks. For any mention of the second coming of Jesus is met with skepticism. Always that classic line that no one knows the day or the hour. Actually non-believers can take a look at the world and see that things are going to heck in a handbasket. Non-believers can see that this world is drawing to an end. They may not be able to explain it in the Light of Christ. But I think they have a better idea of what is going on than most Christians.

Each generation has always had the hope of the return of Jesus going back to the first century. Just because it took two thousand years to get to this point does not mean that Christ is not going to return. We are reminded continually to be on the alert. And other translations is watch and pray. Yes we are to occupy until He returns. But that is a thing. Until He returns.

I think the greater error rather than setting dates or times. Is to scoff at the idea of the return of Jesus. Better to watch and pray then to mock and scoff.

My thoughts.

Blane,

Looking back at extremes and also at current fables that don't agree with the Word is not mocking. Why do you think it is mocking?

Bro Blaine writes..........

" But then let us not fall into the error of 2nd Peter 3 where mockers and scoffers say where is the promise of his coming. For all continues just as it was from the beginning.

Actually I think the greatest disbelievers on the second coming of Jesus Christ are among our own ranks. For any mention of the second coming of Jesus is met with skepticism. Always that classic line that no one knows the day or the hour. Actually non-believers can take a look at the world and see that things are going to heck in a handbasket. Non-believers can see that this world is drawing to an end. They may not be able to explain it in the Light of Christ. But I think they have a better idea of what is going on than most Christians."

Amen bro Blaine. And the irony is, that most mockers I have come across that use the logic you have described are folks who fear " what the world thinks." What the world thinks or what has went on before should not dictate our approach to the truth. This is exactly why Satan has given us counterfeit, so the world can mock, it is often sad to see that the greatest mockers are within the ranks of Christendom with a rationale designed to " not look foolish," to the world...............bro Frank

That's just it Mark,
You don't realize that what is arising in the earth is FAR more widespread, FAR more global, FAR more reaching, etc. than Hitler. We haven't seen the final end result yet, but we are in 1930 Germany with the rhetoric & buildup ramped up & supported globally on a scale that Hitler only dreamed of. And this is still over "the controversy in Zion". The more I dig deep into this, into the prophets, & into the prophecies of the NT, & research what is really going on in the earth NOW, the more I see it clearer & clearer. But if we have created a new theology which puts all these things as past & hyper-allegorized, & don't value the sum of God's Words, or have a heart to be moved & taught by the Lord, we can miss it. And we will be like those (who the scriptures call "mockers/scoffers") who say, "since the beginning of time all things continue as they were & yet He delays His coming". I used to not really fully understand or follow Art Katz when he spoke of these things & the end times Mystery of Israel in the last days 10 years ago when I would listen to him. I would not deny them, but tuck them into my heart & say "Lord, if these things are true, show me." And now, He is, & it's not through the prophetic words of men or the declarations of these truths primarily, but the careful, close, open-hearted, prayerful study & searching of the scriptures to see if these things are true. And the Lord continues to teach me & open up the scriptures, particularly the OT prophets, Jesus' prophecies, Revelation, etc. Now it is getting clearer & clearer & clearer. God is faithful & His Word is true. Anyways, what is coming on the prophetic timeclock of God concerning this land will be preempted with sociological, spiritual, physical, & geological signs, but the culmination & stamp of these things concerns Israel & the controversy of Zion. And a holocaust is coming that makes WW2 pale in comparison, the church will be called to respond to it, the antichrist will appear on the scene & fulfill prophecy, & Jesus Himself will come in the end to put an end to it all HIMSELF! This is what will make it all different than the past generations & past atrocities. And it's actually all right there spelled out & explained in Daniel, as well as Isaiah, Ezekiel, Micah, Psalms, Zechariah, The Gospels, Acts, 1 Thessalonians, Revelation, etc. This mystery I believe is prophetic & scriptural "meat" worth seeking the Lord on & studying out. I believe The Lord will confirm & open up the mystery of His Word to those who come to Him humbly in truth with an open Bible, open heart, & no preconceived notions from the recent doctrines of men.
God Bless,
Jeff

Bill,

"Is GOD mad or upset?"

After 2,000 years of His saints being slaughtered, He is obviously rich in mercy.

The One who told us to be merciful, is merciful Himself.

Luke 6:36
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

The Lord wants more fruit (souls).

James 5:7
Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

I agree, Bill. Constant, emotional drama.

Where is the emphasis on Christ, here now on earth, alive in His people and ruling and reigning through them over the flesh, sin and Satan? Where is the excitement and joy of the indwelling Lord of Lords?

Great post Jeff............bro Frank

Jeff,

We don't have to get into a discussion on it, because of "incoming missiles", but just think about this. That is all I ask.

Satan deceived the Jews the first time Jesus came, into looking for a physical Messiah to rescue them from their carnal enemies.

Could Satan be doing it again, but this time working through Christians to validate the Jews belief that a physical Savior is coming to save them from their carnal enemies?

Jesus came the first time and saved man from their sins. Spiritual salvation. The Jews were looking for physical salvation.

Now, Christians are telling them that the Messiah will come and this time He is bringing physical as well as spiritual salvation.

Just want to throw that out there as food for thought. I personally believe this is the great delusion the Paul is speaking of that is coming on a large part of the Church that believes this.

Jesus already brought spiritual salvation and we are to be preaching the Gospel, now. Jews are and will continue to be saved in this dispensation. Why is there going to be yet another chance and another coming of the Messiah to save? Next time He comes, it is not to save.

I know what is going to happen now. I won't be able to have a conversation with you, so I will not try to. Just think about this.

Julius,
I'm not emotionally dramatic. I don't think Frank is? I'm not sure if others are? We are just looking at a topic which was the last teaching of Jesus before the events leading to the cross, that's important in scripture, is preemptively discussed in all the prophets, etc. So while the in dwelling Christ, my identity in Christ, salvation, etc. are all preimminently important & foundational doctrines of our faith, we are just also looking at some additional prophetic "meat" in the words & teachings of Jesus, the apostles, the prophets, etc. Is that not Ok? Just spoken humbly & Honestly; when Philip Mauro & preterism were the main topic of all the threads & we were quoting Mauro more than Jesus, the apostles, & the prophets, I was wondering likewise; "where's Jesus? Where's the prophets? Where's the Bible & the full counsel of the sum of God's Words (in their full context)?" We are discussing something Jesus thought was important enough to make one of His last prophetic teachings before the cross to His disciples that was recorded in Holy Scripture for our edification, gleaning, & learning. That is ok to examine isn't it? If it was important to Jesus & Daniel said it was sealed until the time of the end, & all the prophets spoke of it, & the apostles mention it in the epistles here and there, I wouldn't say it's "unimportant", would you?
God Bless You Friend,
Jeff

Julius,
I have thought about it. I even wondered? I read the preterists. I read the restorationists. I am studying it in length (you have no idea). I am seeing the scriptures themselves open up, faulty understanding be crushed by the context of scripture, & the Lord continues to edifying me in it, give me dreams affirming it, showing me errors in interpretation, etc. Either I am decieved or I am right where God wants me. 😊 I really think when one man said, "preterism is a gateway drug that starts the addiction to reinterpret the scriptures out of context" there was truth in it. I say that with no spear in my hand, but a humble, trembling heart.
God Bless,
Jeff

And by the way, Jesus is coming back to validate His words, the Father's covenants/promises, & to save Israel from their sins (& their enemies). That's the deception: that they are mutually exclusive.

double post

And I again must say that you need to look at scripture in context. You think people believing Jesus is going to keep the prophetic promises of the prophets, Romans 11, Acts 1, Revelation, etc. is "the great delusion" Paul speaks of? Huh? Let's look at the passage in context:

1Now concerning xthe coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our xbeing gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be quickly shaken in mind or xalarmed, either xby a spirit or a xspoken word, or xa letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that xthe day of the Lord has come. 3xLet no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, xunless the rebellion comes first, and xthe man of lawlessness is revealed, xthe son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, xproclaiming himself to be God. 5Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7For xthe mystery of lawlessness xis already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8And then xthe lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus xwill kill with xthe breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by xthe appearance of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan xwith all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for xthose who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11Therefore xGod sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe xwhat is false, 12in order that all may be condemned xwho did not believe the truth but xhad pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is clearly speaking of the antichrist, the little horn, Gog of Magog, the son of perdition, the man of lawlessness, etc. Not Jesus returning to KILL Him HIMSELF & deliver His people & vindicate His name & keep the covenant promises of the Father. Context, context, context.

God Bless,
Jeff

brother Julius,
You just lost me. I have been thinking about what you wrote as well and have no desire to bash you over your eschatology. But please be clear. Are you suggesting that we should consider the possibility that Jesus is not coming back physically?

I am not saying you believe this, just asking if that is what you want us to consider?

Please be clear...no riddles, thank you:-)

I am saying that He is not coming back with another plan of salvation. That dispensation is now.

Old Testament Messianic prophecies dealt with one coming of the Messiah. OT scriptures do not talk of a double coming.

NT testament scriptures deal with Him coming back, but not as Savior, but rather as the Lord of Lords and King of Kings. When every eye shall see Him, time is up.

Edited for additions:

All I can say is that you're preteristic paradigm skews all your seeing, & frankly, I think you are wrong. The context of the prophets always also showed "THE DAY OF THE LORD" in that context. So while it may be dual fulfillment, it doesn't nullify the eventual, literal, complete end times prophetic fulfillments. Unless we go farther into scriptural reinterpretation to say somehow "the day of the Lord's vengeance" already happened too. Once you start down that road of hermeneutical gymnastics, it by necessity must get weirder & weirder, & further away from the whole counsel of scripture & the prophets. The video teaching I posted from Reggie Kelley & BenIsrael explains this very clearly & very well FROM SCRIPTURE & CONTEXT. If you are truly open to considering you could be wrong, I would at least check it out. I'm not saying he has another plan of salvation as in anyone will be saved apart from faith. But I have already addressed that straw man at length, so no use in beating a dead horse
God Bless,
Jeff

Thank you Julius, that is clear...you had me worried for a minute there.

Unless you can explain further what you mean, I cannot see where your statements above are in opposition to the scriptures?

brother Jeff,
Why do you and others insist on accusing Julius of being a preterist, when he has clearly denied this?

I can find no fault in his statements above.

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Jesus told us exactly when the Day of the Lord's vengeance was. When He foretold the coming destruction of Jerusalem.

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Another "Day of Vengeance", was when He came 2,000 years ago, when he began His Messianic ministry.

Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

Vengeance against the powers of darkness and their proxies the religionists who put men in spiritual bondage.

That is preterism people, by definition. Commonly referred to as either partial or full/hyper.

I have looked at and listened to the preterists case. Gaping holes & the twisting of scripture out of its full context over and over and over again (and really the proof is kind of in the pudding because I've had to redirect scriptures that were thrown out there to their context several times in this thread alone which is classic Preterist interpretation).

I'm not going to get into this again Julius. Again, if you actually have a willingness to be wrong (I've certainly been wrong before, haven't you?) & a humility that is earnestly desiring truth, can't you check out some of the things I have recommended? If not, that's fine. But we should be able to talk about earthquakes in diverse places that Jesus did (in the context of famines & pestilences - were those "spiritual famines & pestilences" too?) without it turning into "earthquakes are representative of political changes". Just look at the context & the original Greek word for "earthquake" and that hyper-allegorical hermeneutics dies on the spot.

I don't want to do this again. Can anyone post a non-Preterist interpretation thread & not have it hyper-allegorized, have scripture used out of context & original meaning, & then be made out to be "emotional" when they don't want it shoved down their throat?

That's an honest question. I am done with this thread.
God Bless,
Jeff

by makrothumia on 2016/4/20 13:47:17

Hi Julius,

I am sure you know that Luke's record of our Lord's quotation of Isaiah stopped short and left out "the day of vengeance." That has always intrigued me and only underscores Paul's words to Titus - "when the Lord's philanthropy for man appeared..."

Our Lord did not come to bring vengeance in His first coming.

Mak

I am not intrigued at all. He stopped short because He knew that the Jews who were conditioned to look for a physical Messiah coming in power to deliver them from their carnal enemies, would think that He was bringing this vengeance in a physical way. They would continue to think that about the Messiah as they rejected Him. But, Jesus knew that they knew the scriptures and knew how the verse ended.

But the spiritual, you and I know that He did indeed bring vengeance against the powers of darkness and thus was this scripture fulfilled. The spiritual component of the scriptures is what most people can't recognize as they are stuck in a physical world seeing only with physical eyes.

He most definitely brought vengeance on sin and Satan.

Brothers I had posed this question in a previous post. I will respectfully pose it again. Time does not permit me to quote the text again. But you can look it up.

The question is did the disciples actually witness the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ in this space time? Or did they witness a metaphorical, allegorical, spiritual,
symbolic, etc. event

Depending on how you answer the above question will depend on how Jesus is going to return. For the angels told the apostles. Men of Galilee why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched him go into heaven.

Question... was Luke writing about an actual event that occurred in space-time or was Luke writing about something purely symbolic?

Respectful asked.

Here is the Lord's triumph after exacting vengeance on the powers of darkness.

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

by bearmaster on 2016/4/20 14:35:04

Brothers I had posed this question in a previous post. I will respectfully pose it again. Time does not permit me to quote the text again. But you can look it up.

The question is did the disciples actually witness the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ in this space time? Or did they witness a metaphorical, allegorical, spiritual,
symbolic, etc. event

Depending on how you answer the above question will depend on how Jesus is going to return. For the angels told the apostles. Men of Galilee why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched him go into heaven.

Question... was Luke writing about an actual event that occurred in space-time or was Luke writing about something purely symbolic?

Respectful asked.

The disciples did not see Him metaphorically.
Joh_20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, WE HAVE SEEN THE LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

And Thomas was not dreaming when he put his finger into the Lord's wounds.

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

The above is not figurative or metaphoric speech. They were actually talking about their physical eyes seeing Jesus.

Regarding Luke, they were looking up, right? I believe they were actually watching Jesus ascend with their physical eyes.

Again,
Colossians 2:15 has NOTHING to do with the second advent of the Lord (you know the thing that the Angels told the apostles in the first chapter of the book of acts he would return just as they saw him go?).

Just like how we now "see" spiritually, but in part, BUT WHEN THE PERFECT COMES (ie Jesus returns) then we will see fully and know fully even as we are fully known.

Just like how we have been saved, are being saved, and ultimately WILL BE SAVED WHEN He returns. Just like how we have a "foretaste" of the kingdom and operate within it on a certain level, but he will return to set up His everlasting and eternal kingdom once and forever at his second coming.

Just like how we have been justified, have been & are being sanctified, & one day will be glorified. These are all scriptural concepts that are congruent from Genesis to Revelation.

.

Then brother, respectfully I ask, do you believe that there is going to be an actual physical return of Jesus? Do you believe that we will see Him in the clouds coming with great power and glory?

Respectfully asked.

TMK,
Not talking about "second chances" as in purgatory or some nonsense. But Romans 11 says "all Israel will be saved". Even if you're not sure if that literally means 100% of everyone would any Jewish blood, it's definitely at the very least seems to me that most of Israel will be saved when they look up on him whom they pierced. Romans 11's context is CLEARLY Paul speaking of Isreal and not "spiritual Israel" (ie the church) there. So again, we are back to either seeing the prophetic mystery of God laid out in the prophets or we must reinterpret & hyper-allegorize everything. Again, I know Muslims (there's an ex-Buddhist grandmother in our fellowship) who actually SAW JESUS in a dream & resisted for years, He came to her/them again & salvation was birthed from it. Is that fair? Does that require faith if they actually saw Him? But I didn't see Him! Does God's grace on them nullify my faith? Absolutely not, but further confirms it! Hallelujah!!!! ☺️🙏🏻☝️💪🏻

Jeff,

I am talking about the Day of the Lord's vengeance when He came and died and took the keys of Hell and Death from Satan.

"I am done with this thread."

Brother Jeff as surely as I know Jesus is coming back physically some time in the future I know that you will be back on this thread very shortly...lol.

by bearmaster on 2016/4/20 14:51:40

Then brother, respectfully I ask, do you believe that there is going to be an actual physical return of Jesus? Do you believe that we will see Him in the clouds coming with great power and glory?

Respectfully asked.

If I am here and not with the Lord. (you already asked me this question in another thread)

Sorry bro. But there been a lot of the end time threads going around and you and I have been on a lot of them.

I take it then by your answer you do believe that Jesus is coming back literally. And that we will see him come in the clouds with power and great glory. Is this correct?

Blaine stated:

"Then brother, respectfully I ask, do you believe that there is going to be an actual physical return of Jesus? Do you believe that we will see Him in the clouds coming with great power and glory?"

Their jesus has already returned in a spiritual invisible, nebulous sense in 70 AD and is now reining over all. You can see it by the peace and tranquillity and justice over all the earth. So what would be the point of a second literal, physical return when he is already here?

Mark,
LOL! 😊 Guilty as charged! Sorry, but this is actually the focus of my study right now (& has been for awhile now), so it's all fresh on my heart/mind.
God Bless,
Jeff

No worries Jeff and thanks for being humble about it, now please go and kiss and make up with Julius:-)

I'm not mad at Julius? 😊 I just refuse to swallow the (partial or full-hyper) preterism pill.

by TMK on 2016/4/20 15:02:09

Bear-

No offense man but Julius answered that question directly. Mark (awakened) asked him. He said he did believe in a literal second coming.

He just doesn't believe (nor do I) that this will begin a literal 1000 year physical reign on earth.

I believe (and I think J does too) that the 2nd coming is literal and marks the creation of the new heavens and earth and coincides with the final judgment.

Please see the 2 Peter passage I posted above.

Amen, TMK.

Sorry bro. Not trying to be argumentative and hard-headed. So many post are flying around on this thread I didn't see you post.

Then I think you, Julius and I are in agreement that the return of Jesus will be literal. At this point. I think it best to leave Him to fill in the details. :-)

By the way my Millennial position is that of a pan mil. It is all going to pan out in the end when Jesus returns. :-)

Just so folks know, my own view tends towards what is commonly known as Amillennial. I believe that when Christ returns that is the end of this world and this age and that there will be a new heaven and a new earth. I acknowledge that I could be entirely wrong but this is what I believe. Although this has nothing to do with my position, I note that the anabaptists and the amish and the mennonites held to this view along with many Methodists and Messianic Jews amongst others. I reject the preterist view and I see that in the seven years of tribulation that almost the entire population of the saints will be wiped out and that these same forces will come against the nation of Israel. When the Jewish people see the great slaughter of the saints, when they " witness," this, they will be drawn to Messiah. No one in the world better understands the slaughter of a people for the mere fact of who they are than the Jewish people. Quick question for those who take the 1000 years literally. When God says in Psalm 50.........

Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

Does He mean that the only cattle that is His is on a literal thousand hills or was the word thousand a symbolic word for every hill on the world?........bro Frank

click on this thread and sup on brother Len Ravenhill exhorts on "Gethsemane's Cup" .......both Joy in Christ, and conviction in Christ..........

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=56753&forum=16

love, neil

Hey Frank,
Thanks for sharing brother. I want to send you something for your review, but don't want it to be taken wrong on the forum or have it take on a life of its own, so I'll email it to you, if that's OK?
God Bless,
Jeff

Sure Jeff............bro Frank

1. Is the number of "a thousand" to be interpreted in a strict physical and temporal sense, or in a symbolic, figurative manner (as almost all of the other numbers in Revelation)?

Throughout the book Revelation numbers are employed figuratively and symbolically (ex. 3 1/2, 7, 10, 12, 24, 666, 144,000), rather than with base-ten human arithmetical designation. The number of "one thousand" seems to represent the "full scope," "comprehensiveness" or "completion" of that which is being described.

The number "thousand" is used throughout the Scriptures in a figurative way. God is said to "keep His covenant and His lovingkindness toward men to the thousandth generation" (Deut. 7:9; I Chron. 16:15; Ps. 105:8). Does this mean that God's character of faithfulness and compassion ceases after the literal "thousandth generation" of mankind? No, it refers to the comprehensive and eternal completion of His character. Likewise the psalmist indicates that God possesses "the cattle on a thousand hills" (Ps. 50:10). Is He limited to a literal "thousand hills" of cattle? No, he possesses all the cattle in the world, and the number of "a thousand" is used to point out the complete comprehensiveness of God's control over His creation. Contemporary English usage still uses "thousand" in a figurative way, an example being, "I've told you a thousand times..." We must beware of limiting God by literalness of humanly defined interpretations. Symbolic and figurative interpretations are "literal" when they correspond to the literary intent of the literature, which is the case in this instance.

Here is an outline history of the belief in a literal millenium.

A. Early church (c. 100-250) - millennium not emphasized. Variety of views.
B. Early reaction to view of earthly millennium.
1. Origen (c. 185-254) attributed such thinking to heretic, Cerinthus
2. Montanist heresy (c.175) had excesses of earthly millennial views.
3. Rampant speculation to calculate end time.
C. Augustine (354-430) rejected his previous earthly millennial position and interpreted "1000 years" of Rev. 20 as symbolic of entire period from first coming of Christ to second coming of Christ.
1. Council of Ephesus (431) condemned earthly millennium interpretation as heretical superstition.
2. Became orthodox view of Church for centuries.
D. Reformation (sixteenth century) - Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Anabaptists accepted symbolic interpretation of "1000 years." Regarded Catholic Pope as Antichrist.
E. Seventeenth - nineteenth centuries - gradually revived earthly millennium view.
F. Nineteenth & twentieth centuries.
1. J.N. Darby (Plymouth Brethren), followed by D.L. Moody, C.I. Scofield, H.A. Ironside (Dallas Theological Sem.), developed theological system of Dispensationalism incorporating earthly millennium and pre-tribulation rapture of Church. Became a primarily American theological phenomenon.
2. Majority of theological community (Post-millennial and Amillennial) has regarded Dispensationalism as a modernist aberrational interpretation.

This can all be very confusing so for those who want to learn how the following beliefs are defined, here is the chart: http://www.christinyou.net/Outlines/millennium.pdf

PREMILLENNIALISM
PRETRIBULATION PREMILLENNIALISM (Dispensationalism)
POSTMILLENNIALISM
AMILLENNIALISM

Julius,
I don't know if it's a literal thousand years or not (I tend to think it is, but I could be wrong of course). I definitely don't think we are currently "in it" now though because that goes against too much CLEAR plain spoken scripture & words of the prophets.

I will say this, the individual's you quoted as "proof" from their view in my view are not very reliable sources to agree with overall.

1.) Origen & Augustin were RABID anti-Semites. If you read that book I recommended that you said you would, you'd see that CLEARLY from their own words. I was SHOCKED. When I saw them. I have the full 40+ volume set of all the early church fathers too to verify it. I can quote them here if you like. It's actually sickening & they call for the burning of Jews synogauges, homes, etc. & their expulsion from their communities or death. What spirit is that? It ain't the Holy Spirit.

2.) Darby & Scofield? These are your "Pre-Trib rapture" guys, as I'm sure you know. Their interpretation of eschatology & the millineaum means absolutely nothing (may even be an indicator of exactly what not to believe in my book.

Anyways, I thought should be considered.
God Bless,
Jeff

Just showing you the historical line of thought, not attesting to the individual's character, Jeff. You are going off on rabbit trails. But, it does not discount the fact that we find no record of anyone thinking it was a literal thousand years for almost 1700 centuries.

A literal thousand years is, relatively speaking, new teaching.

Jeff writes.........

"I don't know if it's a literal thousand years or not (I tend to think it is, but I could be wrong of course)"

This is a wonderful statement. If we could all come at this subject with the spirit of that statement we could truly be iron sharpening iron as opposed to swords clashing with swords.........bro Frank

Julias writes..........

"The number "thousand" is used throughout the Scriptures in a figurative way. God is said to "keep His covenant and His lovingkindness toward men to the thousandth generation" (Deut. 7:9; I Chron. 16:15; Ps. 105:8). Does this mean that God's character of faithfulness and compassion ceases after the literal "thousandth generation" of mankind? No, it refers to the comprehensive and eternal completion of His character. Likewise the psalmist indicates that God possesses "the cattle on a thousand hills" (Ps. 50:10). Is He limited to a literal "thousand hills" of cattle? No, he possesses all the cattle in the world, and the number of "a thousand" is used to point out the complete comprehensiveness of God's control over His creation. Contemporary English usage still uses "thousand" in a figurative way, an example being, "I've told you a thousand times..." We must beware of limiting God by literalness of humanly defined interpretations. Symbolic and figurative interpretations are "literal" when they correspond to the literary intent of the literature, which is the case in this instance."

I personally find that line of thought compelling.......bro Frank

by appolus on 2016/4/21 11:10:58

Jeff writes.........

"I don't know if it's a literal thousand years or not (I tend to think it is, but I could be wrong of course)"

This is a wonderful statement. If we could all come at this subject with the spirit of that statement we could truly be iron sharpening iron as opposed to swords clashing with swords.........bro Frank

I also caught that, Appolus and wanted to compliment Jeff in him at least considering that it may not be a literal thousand years. We can certainly have a fruitful discussion without slinging invectives and it is so much more edifying to have a peaceful and thoughtful discussion without assuming others motives. Let's believe the best about each other, that all are interested in only exploring the Scriptures and what they are saying. God has one truth and we can make a lot of progress, if we defer to one another in love as we pursue the truth (Him). I too, don't have everything worked out and I come here to explore the scriptures with brothers who can do it, peacefully.

Love believes all things.

Johannes writes..........

"How can this allow for a literal 1000 year reign, as the resurrection is placed AT THE LAST DAY.

What will happen to the souls who die during a literal 1000 years? Should someone get saved, how will they become part of the Bride? Should they then die, when will they' be resurrected? Just some questions as I ponder this ......"

Good thoughts brother............bro Frank

Julius,
Hey brother, I wasn't going off on rabbit trails. You used these people as examples (making it your rabbit trail). I am saying that if someone believes in clearly not only false teaching (Pre-Trib Dispensationalism) but even advocates the MURDER & PLUNDERING OF A People (& calls them worthless, wretched dogs, etc.) then their theological judgement is all suspect to me, but you used them as "proof" or something?

So for the record, here's a few people who believe/d in Judeo-Centric Premillinealism (& none of them wanted to murder a people group - FYI.
"If can't love your brother who you can see, how can you say you love God who you can't see" & even, if you see it totally different, "love your enemies & pray for them" - Jesus. "Jesus, should we call down fire from heaven on them? You don't even know what spirit you are of" - Sons of Thunder).

Here's some people whose lives bore tremendous fruit of love, sacrifice, evangelism, missions, & theology:
Charles Spurgeon, Horatius Bonar, John Bunyan, David Baron, Jonathan Edwards, Adolph Saphir, Art Katz, Reggie Kelley, George Mueller, Corrie Ten Boom (& her entire family), etc., etc.

I'm not creating rabbit trails though brother. Just following after your example in showing who believed what in history. The truth is still the truth either way.
God Bless,
Jeff

A Brief Case for the Futurity of the Thousand Years » Reggie Kelley
Seated in Heavenly Places
I have used Dan 7:11 with Rev 19:20 to point out to those who hold the amillennial view that we cannot be in the millennium now, since the first resurrection happens in obvious connection with the destruction of the ‘final’ beast (Dan 7:11 with Rev 19:20) and the resurrection of the martyrs of the ‘last’ persecution (Dan 7:21-22; Rev 6:11; 13:7, 15; 20:4-5). That is a real hurdle for their position.
Clearly, the kingdom that is in view in Daniel’s prophecy does not prevail upon the earth until AFTER the destruction of the Antichrist. Only with the final removal of all false rule do the saints possess the kingdom "under the whole heaven.” This is shown by a comparison of Dan 7:11, with Dan 7:18, 21-22, 27. However, a closer look at the scripture will show that the kingdom that is "set up” upon earth "in the days of these kings” (compare Dan 2:44; 7:24 with Rev 17:12) is the same kingdom that was first awarded to the Son of Man upon His coronation when He ascended in clouds to take His seat at the Father’s right hand (Acts 2:34-36; Heb 12:2; Rev 3:21).
Dan 7:13 says, "I saw in the night visions, and behold, one like the Son of Man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”
The Son of Man’s coming ‘to’ the Ancient of Days to be ‘brought near’ before Him (the Ancient of Days), would seem to be speaking, not of Jesus’ return, but of His victorious ascent to the right hand of God in heaven. Yet, we see Jesus applying the same language of the cloud-coming Son of Man to His return after the tribulation (Mt 24:30; Rev 1:7; 14:14). From this we see that the same One who ascended with clouds to receive the kingdom, returns with clouds (Mt 24:30; Mk 14:62; 1Thes 4:17; Acts 1:9-11; Rev 1:7) to enforce the power of His heavenly victory upon the earth with the destruction of the Antichrist (Dan 7:13; 2Thes 2:8; Rev 19:20).
Interestingly, the Son of Man is brought near to the Ancient of Days in Dan 7:13, but in Dan 7:22 it is the Ancient of Days that ‘comes’ to consume and destroy the dominion of the persecuting beast (i.e., the ‘little horn’ of Dan 7:8, 11, 20-21). Notice that the judgement is said to be ‘set’ (Dan 7:9-10, 26) at the same time that the beast is destroyed and his dominion ‘taken way’ (Dan 7:11 with Dan 7:26). Equally significant, this is the beast that is destroyed at the end of a final 3 1/2 year period of unequaled persecution (Dan 7:25; 9:27; 12:1, 7, 11).
Since the period separating two distinct advents of the Messiah was not clearly discernible until after the revelation of the gospel, we can see in hindsight that Daniel’s vision is inclusive of the whole sweep of God’s triumph through Christ, extending from the coronation of Jesus at the time of His glorious ascent, to His return in clouds after the tribulation to destroy the Antichrist, raise the righteous, and deliver the surviving remnant of Israel (Dan 12:1-2).
Part of the puzzle of Dan 7:9-10 is the remarkable similarity of language that is used in Daniel and again in Revelation to describe distinct judgments that are a thousand years apart. In Daniel, the judgment is ‘set’ and the ‘books are opened’ when the Ancient of Days comes to destroy the Antichrist (Dan 7:11, 21-22), whereas in Rev 20:12, the books are opened at the end of the thousand years.
Either we are to understand that the books are opened twice, or, more likely, Daniel is viewing the full sweep of divine judgment without distinguishing between the first and second resurrections, since the fate of those that will be raised at the second resurrection is already sealed at the time of the Lord’s return. It is a common feature of OT prophecy to blend into a single scene events that later revelation will show to be separated by a great span of time.
We find a key to this mystery by comparing the language of Dan 7 and Rev 20 with what we find in the twenty fourth chapter of Isaiah. In Dan 7:9, the thrones of the mighty are cast down in association with the destruction of the last beast (Dan 7:11, 21-22, 26-27). The language is fascinatingly similar to what we find in Isa 24:21: "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.”
The time in view is clearly the post-tribulational day of the Lord, as the entire context of Isa 24 makes abundantly clear, but notice that the judgment that is visited at this time upon the wicked does not appear to be entirely final. Look closely at Isa 24:22, and you can see a cryptic allusion to the time that John’s later Revelation will show to be the thousand years between the first and second resurrections. "And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.”
In this light, the judgment scenes of Daniel and Revelation can be seen as comprehensive of the full sweep of divine judgment that bounds both ends of the millennium. The imagery is that of a courtroom where the judge sits to pronounce the decisive verdict. But from the standpoint of Christ’s finished work, the verdict has already been passed for the believer who has "passed ‘already’ from death to life” (Jn 5:24).
The believer is depicted as ‘now’ (past tense) ascended and sit down with Christ in heavenly places (Eph 1:3, 20-22; 2:6; Col 3:1). This is already. Not yet is the promise that the overcoming believer will be exalted to sit with Christ in His throne, even as He overcame to sit down with His Father on His throne (Rev 3:21). Of course, this high station of an already secured inheritance must be vindicated in time by the life that overcomes and is not overcome. That life is Christ’s life in the believer (Col 1:27). "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall you also appear with Him in glory” (Col 3:4).
The language of being ‘set down’ speaks of Christ’s finished work and victorious triumph over all enemies (Heb 1:3; 2:8; 10:12-13; 12:2; 1Cor 15:24-27). This implies that it was at the ascension that the Son of Man came to the Ancient of Days (Dan 7:13 with Acts 1:9-11). By the sweet smell of His perfect obedience, He was ‘brought near’ to be enthroned at the Father’s right hand (Rev 3:21).
His triumphal ascension over all principality and power (Acts 2:34-36; Eph 1:20-21; Rev 12:5) has secured the heavenly victory by which His saints will quite literally "possess the kingdom under the whole heaven” when He returns with clouds (Mt 24:29-30; 26:64; Acts 1:9-11; 1Thes 4:17; Rev 1:7). Since "all judgment has been committed to the Son” (Mat 28:18; Jn 5:22; 1Cor 15:24), the judgement of the Ancient of Days is no less the judgment of the returning Son of Man.
Note also the remarkable statement in Dan 7:12. After the destruction of the beast in Dan 7:11, mention is made of "the rest of the beasts.” (Should we understand these to be the 10 kings that unite with the Antichrist in Dan 7:24; Rev 17:12? Or is the reference to the four beast kingdoms of Dan 7:3, 17?). In any event, at the time the beast is destroyed in Dan 7:11; Rev 19:20, the "rests of the beasts” have their dominion stripped away at the same time (Dan 7:11-12, 26), but here is what I want us to notice: "their lives are prolonged for a season and a time” (Dan 7:12).
Whatever we make of this, it is certain that there are nations that survive the return of Christ and the destruction of the beast. These are not translated with the church, but go into the millennium in natural bodies. That not all nations are always willingly compliant with the rule of heaven is shown in the reference that Messiah will rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Jeff,

I think you are still missing my point. These people are used only as "buoys" in the "water" of history. Much like Josephus is used. Their comments only highlight the fact that there was no belief in a literal thousands years. We don't find that until recently (1700's). Am I endorsing these men? No, if you think that, then that is why you are missing my point.

Let's try it this way. Show me historical documents of a belief in the literal thousand year scenario by the Church in the first 1000 years after the resurrection of Christ.

Julius,
I don't put wholesale stock into proximity to Christ for doctrine. I used to, but I don't anymore. I let the teaching & the scriptures persuade me. Here's why:

1.) Paul himself (in scripture) said, "as soon as I leave I know grievous wolves will come in, not sparing the flock..." If Paul knew As soon as Paul left wolves (false teachers) would come in, why does that make proximity of time after Christ some "litmus test"? Compare scripture with scripture.

2.) Origen & Augustin & others who were very close to the time of Christ were of a murderous theology that was nothing of the Spirit of Christ, so why would I give any heed whatsoever to their, or others like them, theology on these things? They didn't understand the issue of Israel PLAINLY Laid out in scripture, so by necessity had to create other doctrines (also potentially fallacious) to support the whole paradigm of interpretation.

3.) an angel in scripture told Daniel that the things "pertaining to the end" (& the word in the original Hebrew is different than "the last days", but as in "the end of All things", like the end of the end) even he couldn't be given the understanding on, but they were "sealed up until the time of the end". So obviously those right after Christ not in "the end" time period before the Lord's return (obviously as that was 2,000 years ago) weren't given the understanding either. The wise ("Mascallim") will understand, but the wicked will not understand." So proximity to the time of the early church fathers means very little (especially from murderous anti-Semites or people who fell for the Pre-Trib lie that was the fruit of a cultic vision of two young girls perpetuated by a charismatic "preacher" who was later defrocked for impropriety in his position & picked up by John Darby).

God Bless,
Jeff

But since you asked (& wrote as if none did):

Premillennialism
Premillennialism teaches that the Second coming will occur before a literal thousand-year reign of Christ from Jerusalem upon the earth. In the early church, premillennialism was called chiliasm, from the Greek term meaning 1,000, a word used six times in Revelation 20:2-7. This view is most often contrasted with Postmillennialism which sees Christ's return after a golden "millennial age" where Christ rules spiritually from his throne in heaven, and Amillennialism which sees the millennium as a figurative reference to the current church age.

Background
Premillennialism was the most widely held view of the earliest centuries of the church. Philip Schaff has said, "The most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene Age (A.D. 100-325) is the prominent chiliasm, or millenarianism, . . . a widely current opinion of distinguished teachers, such as Barnabas, Papia, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, and Lactantius." (History of the Christian Church, Scribner, 1884; Vol. 2, p. 614)

Premillennialism began to die out in the established Catholic Church during the life of Augustine (A.D. 354-430). Chiliasm was suppressed by the dominant Catholic Church, but survived through various "fringe" groups of Christians during the mediaeval period. During the Reformation, Anabaptists and Hugenots helped to revive premillennialism and it was adopted among some Puritans during the Post-Reformation era.

The greatest development and spread of premillennialism since the early church came in the late 1800's - early 1900's with the rise of U.S. Fundamentalism and Dispensationalism. Starting in the British Isles and spreading to America, premillennialism (in its dispensational form) has become prominent in the Evangelical faith.

Two varieties of premillennialism
Premillennialists fall into two primary categories: historic premillennialism and dispensational premillennialism. Historic premillennialism is so called because it is the classic form which may be found in writings of some of the early church fathers (mentioned above), although in an undeveloped form. Dispensational premillennialism is that form which derives from John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) and dispensational theology. It is dispensational premillenialism that first taught the notion of a pre-tribulation rapture.

Historic premillennialists reject the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture and the uniquely Jewish nature of the dispensationalist's millennial kingdom (see below). It is often assumed that all premillennialists are dispensational in their theology. This is a confusion that should be avoided. Historic premillennialists such as George Eldon Ladd are consistent Calvinists who did not accept the basic tenets of dispensationalism.

Sigh.. You are still missing my point. These men, whether you liked their theology or not seemed to have something to say about everything yet no mention of this topic you consider very important. I can use other early Christians that you agree with and still no mention of a literal thousand year reign.

Anyway, glad you are open about it being figurative.

Jochbaptist, had some very good questions, don't you think?

by jochbaptist on 2016/4/21 11:22:23

Hi All

I was just wondering how, in a topic of this length, no one has considered the words of Jesus Himself. -(unless I missed it somehow)

John 6:40 (KJV)
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY.

John 6:44 (KJV)
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY.

John 6:54 (KJV)
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY.

How can this allow for a literal 1000 year reign, as the resurrection is placed AT THE LAST DAY.

What will happen to the souls who die during a literal 1000 years? Should someone get saved, how will they become part of the Bride? Should they then die, when will they' be resurrected?

Just some questions as I ponder this ......

PP,
Did you just totally disregard my previous post? The whole issue is the Abrahamic Covenant (was it "an everlasting covenant") & did Paul mean what he wrote in Romans 11 or didn't he? It was actually the Roman Catholic Church under & after Constantine that moved away from Premillinealism. Didn't I already show that?
God Bless,
Jeff

And frankly, I trust the scriptural & theological interpretation/writings of men like Bunyan, Spurgeon, Mueller, Bonar, etc. MUCH MORE than Origen, Augustin, Luther, Calvin, etc. (didn't I already say that too?). The former had a theology of love, the Gospel, lay your life down, love your enemies, etc. WITH NO VITRIOLE HATRED OF THE JEWS CALLING FOR THEIR DESTRUCTION, while the latter (among other things), called for their vehement hateful destruction & annihilation. "By their fruit (what they produce), you will recognize them" - Jesus, speaking in context of recognizing false teachers & knowing the good from the bad by what they produce/say/write/believe/teach/incite/live/do.

And proximity to Jesus again means nothing in and of itself. Judas was almost as close as you could get.

I wrote this poem this morning after watching a few minutes of Ravenhill speak on the glory of God, Neil had posted it. No comments :) There were many devotional posts this morning, no comments :(

I think it was on this thread that someone was chastising someone for not focusing on Jesus. The sad fact is that threads such as this, and I am not knocking them, will garner hundreds of comments because there is controversy. Then, men will inevitably say harsh things about each other and then we have division. Perhaps we can stop for a moment and consider the glory of God? ...............bro Frank

Subdued by His Majesty

Have you been subdued by the Majesty?
Has your head hung low in the glory?
Has your darkness been shattered by the light from up above?
Have you found yourself adrift in an ocean of love?

Oh God in heaven rend the skies and come down
May I fall to my knees with your glory all around
May the waters rise from the tears of a million saints
Let us enter into this place where no one ever faints

Brighter than the light of a thousand suns
Where time has no place and eternity's just begun
Where every part of me is one with every part of you
And the glory falls and covers me like the morning dew

I am whole and complete, here before the mercy-seat
I am refreshed and restored where my mercies are replete
Oh God in heaven take me to this place
Where I forever look unto your face

Tears of joy and wholeness rise in me
Waters from the saints that are deeper than the sea
Only in this place do I truly belong
Forever singing heaven's Holy song

Suddenly I am back from whence I came
But this I know, I shall never be the same
And the memory of His presence lingers on
My heart is full, tis food to dwell upon

This hunger and this thirst is part of me
Longing to be adrift once more, in that eternal sea
Oh take me to that place that is my home
Where I shall dwell eternally before thy throne

Hey bro beautiful poem. By the way two other brothers and I posted on followthelamb's thread on prayer. Rich time. Rich anointing.

Blaine

Awesome, Apollus.
.
.
.
Very good post, PP. Much clearer than mind and makes the point, better.

I don't disagree that this seems to have to go into controversy. Fact is, this thread was created from the OP about scientifically stated increased earthquake activity in the earth,,,but it always seems to have to get pushed back through a paradigm where somehow, some way, someone brings it back around to preterism, &/or Replacement Theology, etc. That wasn't my derailment by the way. I guess when that's the "lens" one interprets all scripture through, it affects (or infects) the way you see/interpret EVERYTHING in the scriptures?

I already addressed that PP & quoted which ones (like Ireaneas, Justin Martyr, etc.) were Premillinealists who believed that way. I can pull the exact quotes from my church father volumes, but it will have to be later. Much later. Busy now. God Bless!

Jeff,

Doesn't the fact that the literal 1,000 year belief only surfaced in the Christian church around the 1700's give you pause?

Docs, as was earlier noted in one of my posts, a thousand years is figurative speech (as defined in the OT) for totality or completeness.

Well, PP, if you're going to make those connections, I gotta also point out, isn't it also ironic that the Amil/Replacement Theology guys made the grievous error or promoting murder of the Jewish people? "No murderer has any part in the kingdom of God". "You have heard it said, you shall not murder, but I say to you, if you hate your neighbor without a cause, you have committed murder in your heart.." Which is worse if you're going to make those type of connections?

Mine actually has real teeth. Yours is making a very loose association between Premillinealists and the Pharisees. Are you implying Spurgeon, Bunyan, Bonar, Katz & all those guys are heretics & Christ killers? Because the replacement theology & Amil guys actually incited the persecution & killing of the Jewish people. It goes both ways (& not in the favor of your persuausion).

You have heard of John Bunyan right? He was pretty respected too in the church. He wrote a myriad of books on grace, love, humility, etc. & wrote Pilgrim's Progress. The second most read book in history to the Bible.

Judeo-Centric Premillinaelism, Chapter on Future Millineum
http://bunyanministries.org/books/prophetical_landmarks_bonar/07_the_proofs_of_premill_advent.pdf

Or Haratius Bonar, the well known theologian who wrote books on the Everlasting Righteousness, Gods Way Of Peace, etc. & wrote many hymns we still sing today:

Horatius Bonar,

I am one of those who believe in Israel’s restoration and conversion; who receive it as a future certainty, that all Israel shall be gathered, and that all Israel shall be saved. As I believe in Israel’s present degradation, so do I believe in Israel’s coming glory and preeminence. I believe that God’s purpose regarding our world can only be understood by understanding God’s purpose as to Israel. I believe that all human calculations as to the earth’s future, whether political or scientific, or philosophical or religious, must be failures, if not taking for their data or basis God’s great purpose regarding the latter-day standing of Israel. I believe that it is not possible to enter God’s mind regarding the destiny of man, without taking as our key or our guide His mind regarding the ancient nation””that nation whose history, so far from being ended, or nearly ended, is only about to begin. And if any one may superciliously ask, What can the Jews have to do with the world’s history?””may we not correctly philosophize on that coming history, and take the bearing of the world’s course, leaving Israel out of the consideration altogether? We say, nay; but O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Art thou the framer of the earth’s strange annals, either past or future? Art thou the creator of those events which make up these annals, or the producer of those latent springs or seeds of which these arise?

He only to whom the future belongs can reveal it. He only can announce the principles on which that future is to be developed. And if He set Israel as the great nation of the future, and Jerusalem as the great metropolis of earth, who are we, that, with our philosophy of science, we should set aside the divine arrangements, and substitute for them a theory of man? Human guesses of the future are the most uncertain of all uncertainties; and human hopes, built upon these guesses, are sure to turn out the most disappointing, if not the most disastrous, of all failures.

I believe that the sons of Abraham are to re-inherit Palestine, and that the forfeited fertility will yet return to that land; that the wilderness and the solitary places shall be glad for them, and the desert will rejoice and blossom as the rose. I believe that, meanwhile, Israel shall not only be wanderers, but that everywhere only a remnant, a small remnant, shall be saved; and that it is for the gathering in of this remnant that our missionaries go forth. I believe that these times of ours (as also all the times of the four monarchies [Dan. 2]) are the times of the Gentiles; and that Jerusalem and Israel shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, till the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. I believe that, with the filling up of these times of the Gentile pre-eminence, and the completion of what the apostle calls the fullness of the Gentiles, will be the signal for the judgments which are to usher in the crisis of earth’s history, and the deliverance of Israel, and the long-expected kingdom.

How the Jew, so long in abeyance, shall resume pre-eminence, I do not know; but that he shall do so, seems written plainly enough in the prophetic Word. How Jewish history shall once more emerge into its old place of grandeur and miracle, and how it shall unwind from itself the bright future of all nations, I know not. But so it is fore-written, "What shall be the reconciling of them be, but life from the dead?” [Rom. 11:15] "Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit” [Isa. 27:6].

Or Charles Spurgeon, "The Prince of Preachers". He wasn't a deceived heretic or anything?

Spurgeon's Statements on Eschatology

Introduction

As has been clearly demonstrated, the emphasis in the preaching of Charles H. Spurgeon, certainly did not find its center in the arena of eschatology. The entire idea of using prophecy or "prophetic conferences" as an evangelistic tool, would not have received much of a hearing with him. He also did not see the particular value of extended preaching on prophetic themes as a regular part of the Lord's day services. "A prophetical preacher enlarged so much on 'the little horn' of Daniel, that one Sabbath morning he had but seven hearers remaining."167 He taught his students that their chief concern in preaching should not be prophetical speculations, but rather the gospel message and practical godliness.
Salvation is a theme for which I would fain enlist every holy tongue. I am greedy after witnesses for the glorious gospel of the blessed God. O that Christ crucified were the universal burden of men of God. Your guess at the number of the beast, your Napoleonic speculations, your conjectures concerning a personal Antichrist ””forgive me, I count them but mere bones for dogs; while men are dying, and hell is filling, it seems to me the veriest drivel to be muttering about an Armageddon at Sebastopol or Sadowa or Sedan, and peeping between the folded leaves of destiny to discover the fate of Germany. Blessed are they who read and hear the words of the prophecy of the Revelation, but the like blessing has evidently not fallen on those who pretend to expound it, for generation after generation of them have been proven to be in error by the mere lapse of time, and the present race will follow to the same inglorious sepulcher.168

Nonetheless, Spurgeon could say along with the Apostle Paul that he, "did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God" (Acts 20:27). Again his own testimony on this matter is sufficient:
You will bear me witness, my friends, that it is exceedingly seldom I ever intrude into the mysteries of the future with regard either to the second advent, the millennial reign, or the first and second resurrection. As often as we come about it in our expositions, we do not turn aside from the point, but if guilty at all on this point, it is rather in being too silent than saying too much.169

It seems clear that even if Spurgeon's statement on matters of "the second advent, the millennial reign, or the first and second resurrection" were infrequent, they were not imprecise. Spurgeon clearly understood all of the features of eschatology as presented in the Scripture, although he did not give a great deal of his time to their "chronological arrangement." On September 18th, 1876, he presented to the Metropolitan Tabernacle congregation this overview of eschatological events:
I am no prophet, nor the son of a prophet; neither do I profess to be able to explain all the prophecies in this blessed Book. I believe that many of them will only be explained as the events occur which they foretell. Yet there are some things which are plain even to the most superficial reader. It is plain, for instance, that it is certainly foretold that the power of Antichrist shall be utterly and eternally destroyed, and that Babylon, that is to say, the Papal system, with all its abominations, shall be cast like a millstone into the flood, to rise no more for ever. It is also certain that the Jews, as a people, will yet own Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of David, as their King, and that they will return to their own land, "and they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the old cities, the desolations of many generations." It is certain also that our Lord Jesus Christ will come again to this earth, and that he will reign amongst his ancients gloriously, and that there will be a thousand years of joy and peace such as were never known on this earth before. It is also certain that there will be a great and general judgment, when all nations shall be gathered before the Son of man sitting upon the throne of his glory; and his final award concerning those upon his left hand will be, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment;" and concerning those upon his right hand, "but the righteous into eternal life." How all these great events are to be chronologically arranged, I cannot tell170 [emphasis ours].

This tendency of Spurgeon, to reject tightly knit chronological sequences of eschatological events, remained with him his entire life. Drummond gives a good summary of Spurgeon's attitude on the subject:
He refused to spend an inordinate amount of time discussing, for example the relationship of the rapture to the tribulation period, or like points of eschatological nuance. An elaborate dispensational chart would have little or no appeal to Spurgeon. Any dispensational framework that has a tendency to divide the Scriptures into segments, some applicable to contemporary life and some not, did not get his attention at all. He probably would have rejected any such scheme. He kept to the basics of future things.171

It has already been shown eschatology was a secondary issue with Spurgeon; a valuable endeavor, but one which should never "overlay the commonplaces of practical godliness,"172 or start before "first you see to it that your children are brought to the saviour's feet."173 It was also, as has already been demonstrated, not an issue which came between Spurgeon and other major theologians such as Calvin, Hodge, Dixon, etc.
The purpose of this chapter is to examine Spurgeon's statements relating directly and sometimes indirectly to the area of the millennial kingdom and the events surrounding it. As already demonstrated, the vast majority of Spurgeon's statement on this matter are to be found in his sermons; however, his other writings must be consulted as well. In this endeavor this author does not pretend to have read the totality of the Spurgeonic corpus. That legacy took him a lifetime to produce and would take longer to digest and assimilate. An extensive examination of Spurgeon's works has been made; sufficiently thorough, it is hoped, that the contents of this chapter will demonstrate a level of interaction with the Spurgeonic literary legacy sufficient to present a valid conclusion as to his thoughts on this matter. The danger always exists of basing a conclusion on too few passages. Dr. Peter Masters, the current pastor of Spurgeon's Metropolitan Tabernacle and an ardent amillennialist, criticized two writers for just this by drawing conclusions based on too few references.174 This author would not wish to fall victim to the same criticism.
The conclusions offered here are presented decisively, yet with a tentative spirit for as previously stated, there is always room for additional scholarly work and interaction in this area. Since Spurgeon did not attempt to systematize his views on eschatology, the investigator into this area must cull out data from all sources. He must also be careful not to put words into the mouth of Spurgeon or go beyond his thoughts. The critical issue becomes most clearly not only the volume of material interacted with; but also how that material is assimilated and interpreted.
Part One: Spurgeon's Sermons

The primary outlet for Spurgeon's theology was of course his preaching. His preaching style was normally a topical or textual approach, although as one visitor to his home and study remarked about Spurgeon's work:
I was at first surprised to find Mr. Spurgeon consulting both the Hebrew and Greek texts. "They say," said he, "that I am ignorant and unlearned. Well let them say it; and in everything, by my ignorance, and by my knowledge, let God be glorified." His exegesis was seldom wrong. He spared no pains to be sure of the exact meaning of his text.175

Spurgeon was in the broad sense of the term, an expositor of the text of scripture. He was also a great systematizer of thought and theology; and delivered his messages in clear, forthright English. In this section Spurgeon's own statements, as quoted in the introduction, will be utilized and those statements will be examined in three eschatological areas: (1) The Second Advent, (2) The Millennial Reign, and (3) The First and Second Resurrections.
Section A: Spurgeon's Sermons Discussing "The Second Advent of Christ
"The first key feature which Spurgeon identified as foundational eschatological issues is The Second Advent of Christ. That Spurgeon believed in the personal and literal return of Christ to the earth is a fact which cannot be disputed. He looked forward to this great event with anticipation and announced it to his congregation with regularity.
We know that Christ was really, personally, and physically here on earth. But it is not quite so clear to some persons that he is to come, really, personally, and literally the second time. . . Now, we believe that the Christ who shall sit on the throne of his father David, and whose feet shall stand upon Mount Olivet, is as much a personal Christ as the Christ who came to Bethlehem and wept in the manger.176

On June 13, 1869, he told his congregation:
We are to expect the literal advent of Jesus Christ, for he himself by his angel told us, "This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner [emphasis his] as ye have seen him go into heaven," which must mean literally and in person.177

He also commented on the Second Advent when he told the congregation at New Park Street Chapel:
And, moreover, the Christian may await to-morrow with even more than simple hope and joy; he may look forward to it with ecstasy in some measure, for he does not know but that to- morrow his Lord may come. To-morrow Christ may be upon this earth, "for such an hour as ye think not the Son of Man cometh."178

Spurgeon had a great facility with the English language and his ability to create picturesque scenes in his sermons was unsurpassed. On December 28, 1884, he presented to his congregation:
Our great Captain is still heading the conflict; he has ridden into another part of the field, but he will be back again, perhaps in the twinkling of an eye. . . He went up not in spirit, but in person; he will come down again in person. . . "This same Jesus" literally went up. "This same Jesus" will literally come again. He will descend in clouds even as he went up in clouds; and "he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth" even as he stood beforehand. . . Brethren, do not let anybody spiritualize away all this from you. Jesus is coming as a matter of fact, therefore go down to your sphere of service as a matter of fact.179

He also stated clearly:
Brethren, no truth ought to be more frequently proclaimed, next to the first coming of the Lord, than his second coming; and you cannot thoroughly set forth all the ends and bearings of the first advent if you forget the second. At the Lord's Supper, there is no discerning the Lord's body unless you discern his first coming; but there is no drinking into his cup to its fullness, unless you hear him say, "Until I come." You must look forward, as well as backward. So must it be with all our ministries; they must look to him on the cross and on the throne. We must vividly realize that he,. who has once come, is coming yet again, or else our testimony will be marred, and one- sided. We shall make lame work of preaching and teaching if we leave out either advent.180

Certainly there can be no doubt about Spurgeon's belief in the literal and physical return of Christ. But what did he have to say regarding this thesis' main topic, the Millennial Reign?
Section B: Spurgeon's Sermons Discussing "The Millennial Reign"
Regarding the Millennial reign of Christ, Spurgeon was far from silent. It was not a topic that he gave a great deal of attention to, but when he did speak of it he spoke with a consistent view. In 1865 he stated this:
If I read the word aright, and it is honest to admit that there is much room for difference of opinion here, the day will come, when the Lord Jesus will descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of the archangel and the voice of God. Some think that this descent of the Lord will be post-millennial ”” that is, after the thousand years of his reign. I cannot think so. I conceive that the advent will be pre-millennial; that he will come first; and then will come the millennium as the result of his personal reign upon earth181 [emphasis ours].

This comment not only seems to clearly demonstrate Spurgeon's position on the subject, but makes it clear that he was conversant with other millennial positions and their key features. In the same sermon Spurgeon also spoke of the millennial reign in these terms:
Now, while speaking of glory, I think I must divide the glory which God gives to the justified into three parts. There is, first of all, the glory which disembodied spirits are enjoying even now; there is, secondly, the resurrection glory, which they will enjoy when the soul and body shall be re-united, and when, through the millennium, they shall be "for ever with the Lord;" and then there is "the eternal weight of glory," which is to be revealed both in body and soul, in the never-ending state of bliss which God has prepared for his people.182

In another sermon he made this oft-quoted remark regarding the millennial reign:
Just as the twelve tribes, serving God day and night, looked for the first coming, so ought all the tribes of our Israel, day and night, without ceasing, to wait for the Lord from heaven. We are looking for the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. "Even so, come, Lord Jesus" is the desire of every instructed saint. I shall not go into any details about when he will come: I will not espouse the cause of the pre-millennial or the post-millennial advent; it will suffice me just now to observe that the Redeemer's coming is the desire of the entire church; and "unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."183

Spurgeon's disclaimer to not "espouse the cause" of two different millennial positions is attributed by Iain Murray as an example of Spurgeon admitting, "a fundamental uncertainty in his mind;"184 however, this seems to be an unwarranted conclusion as pointed out by Masters' in his review of Murray, where he states this passage simply means that Spurgeon, "did not propose to espouse any particular millennial view in that particular sermon."185 Later in the same sermon Spurgeon made this statement:
To my mind the doctrine of the coming of Christ ought to inflame the zeal of every believer who seeks the conversion of his fellow men, and how can he be a believer if he does not seeks this end? The Lord cometh quickly: O sinner come quickly to the Lord, or it may be too late for you to come. We who call you may soon be silenced by his advent, and mercy may have no more to say to you. . . Stand in a Popish country and see them altogether given to their idols, and worshipping crosses and relics, and you will soon cry, "Come Lord Jesus. Let antichrist be hurled like a millstone into the flood, never to rise again." The vehemence of your desire for the destruction of evil and the setting up of the kingdom of Christ will drive you to that grand hope of the church, and make you cry out for its fulfillment.186

Regarding the nature and location of the millennial reign he stated this:
There is, moreover, to be a reign of Christ. I cannot read the Scriptures without perceiving that there is to be a millennial reign, as I believe, upon the earth, and that there shall be new heavens and new earth wherein dwell righteousness.187

He also was not of the opinion that the millennium on earth was to be identified with the eternal existence in heaven. He clearly made a distinction between the two. Beginning a sermon on the text, "Throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it" (Revelation 22:3), he stated, "We shall take these words as referring to heaven. Certainly it is most true of the celestial city, as well as of the millennial city, that the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it"188 [emphasis ours].
Discussing the relation of the timing of the Return of Christ to the millennium; and its necessity to commence that millennium, Spurgeon was certainly clear as he said:
Paul does not paint the future with rose-colour: he is no smooth-tongued prophet of a golden age, into which this dull earth may be imagined to be glowing. There are sanguine brethren who are looking forward to everything growing better and better and better, until, at the last this present age ripens into a millennium. They will not be able to sustain their hopes, for Scripture give them no solid basis to rest upon. We who believe that there will be no millennial reign without the King, and who expect no rule of righteousness except from the appearing of the righteous Lord, are nearer the mark. Apart from the second Advent of our Lord, the world is more likely to sink into pandemonium than to rise into a millennium. A divine interposition seems to me the hope set before us in Scripture, and, indeed, to be the only hope adequate to the situation. We look to the darkening down of things; the state of mankind, however improved politically, may yet grow worse and worse spiritually.189

He also stated this in a sermon while he was at New Park Street Chapel and printed in his sermon series in 1899:
There are some men who have not seen Elias yet; they do not understand the prophecies. They think they perceive in the future a great progress of civilization, and they expect to see the spread of the gospel; they expect to hear of great agencies employed, of multitudes of ministers going forth to preach the Word, and a gradual conversion of the world to the religion of Christ; but he who understands the prophets, and has seen Elias, believes not in the immediate conversion of the world, nor in universal peace; he believes in "Jesus Only;" he expects that Jesus will first come; and, to him, the great hope of the future is the coming of the Son of man.190

Thus it is clear that Charles Spurgeon believed in a earthly millennium which would be founded on and preceded by the Second Advent of Christ. While he apparently never commented directly on the literalness of the 1,000 year duration of the millennium, his emphasis on the literal interpretation of Revelation 20:1-10 would indicate that he would view the 1,000 as actual and not simply symbolic years.
Finally, Spurgeon, in keeping with his normal attitude towards things eschatological, presented a clear perspective on the practical nature of the Second Advent as he said:
Jesus is not coming in a sort of mythical, misty, hazy way, he is literally and actually coming, and he will literally and actually call upon you to give an account of your stewardship. Therefore, now, to-day, literally not symbolically, personally and not by deputy, go out through that portion of the world which you can reach, and preach the gospel to every creature according as you have opportunity.191

The third investigation of this section, the Resurrections of the just and the wicked, is something that Spurgeon was equally clear about in his preaching.
Section C: Spurgeon's Sermons Discussing "The First and Second Resurrections"
A foundational concept in Spurgeon's eschatology was his belief in the resurrection of believers and unbelievers. Throughout his ministry he presented the truth that there would be separate resurrections of the just and unjust. It has already been noted that he makes a distinction between "the first and second resurrection."192 One of the key features that is unmistakable in his sermons is the fact that Spurgeon saw the resurrection of the just before the millennium and the unjust after the millennium. That he believed in a literal and physical resurrection cannot be denied as is shown in this following sermon:
Yet this Paul believed, and this he preached ””that there would be a resurrection of the dead, both the just and the unjust, not that the just and the unjust would merely live as to their souls, but that their bodies should be restored from the grave, and that a resurrection, as well as an immortality, should be the entail of every man of woman born, whatever his character might be.193

In the same sermon Spurgeon clearly declared that the resurrections would be distinct, separated by 1,000 years.
Notice that this reaping comes first, and I think it comes first in order of time. If I read the Scriptures aright, there are to be two resurrections, and the first will be the resurrection of the righteous; for it is written, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power."194

He also declared very clearly this fact:
We expect a reigning Christ on earth; that seems to us to be very plain, and put so literally that we dare not spiritualise it. We anticipate a first and second resurrection; a first resurrection of the righteous, and a second resurrection of the ungodly, who shall be judged, condemned, and punished for ever by the sentence of the great King.195

Interestingly enough, and probably in keeping with what has already has been seen of Spurgeon's avoidance of prophetic preaching, he only preached two sermons in his entire ministry with a primary text in Revelation 20, admittedly the key passage related to the millennium. He preached on Revelation 20:4-6,12 (skipping over the verses that one might have wished him to comment upon) in an 1861 sermon and Revelation 20:11 in 1866. He also never preached from any portion of Daniel 12, where one might have wished to see his interpretation of the first two verses. In this respect he very much followed in the steps of Calvin, who also largely ignored these passages.196 Despite this he firmly declared his belief that the two resurrections would be separated by the 1,000 year millennial reign. In 1861 he told his congregation this:
You have perhaps imagined that all men will rise at the same moment; that the trump of the archangel will break open every grave at the same instant, and sound in the ear of every sleeper at the identical moment. Such I do not think is the testimony of the Word of God. I think that the Word of God teaches, and teaches indisputably, that the saints shall rise first. And be the interval of time whatever it may, whether the thousand years are literal years, or a very long period of time, I am not now about to determine; I have nothing to do except with the fact that there are two resurrections, a resurrection of the just, and afterwards of the unjust, ””a time when the saints of God shall rise, an after time when the wicked shall rise to the resurrection of damnation.197

In the same sermon he points to his belief that both resurrections are literal and physical. He attacks the position of the famous American Presbyterian commentator, Albert Barnes (1798-1870), who was amillennial in his eschatology,198 as he states:
I must remark that two modes of understanding of this verse [Revelation 20:4-6, 12] have been proposed, both of which I think are untenable. I have been reading carefully through Albert Barnes. He gives it, as his opinion, that the first resurrection here spoken of is a resurrection of principles, ””a resurrection of the patience, the undaunted courage, the holy boldness and constancy of the ancient martyrs. He says these great principles have been forgotten, and, as it were, buried; and that during the spiritual reign of Christ which is to come, these great principles will have a resurrection. Now I appeal to you, would you, in reading that passage, think this to be the meaning? Would any man believe that to be its meaning, if he had not some thesis to defend? The fact is, we sometimes read Scripture, thinking of what it ought to say, rather that what it does say. I do not hesitate to affirm that any simple-minded person, who was intent upon discovering the mind of the Spirit, and not upon finding a method by which the words could be compelled to express his own mind, would say that the resurrection of principles, or the resurrection of doctrines, does not give the fair meaning of the words here stated. . . It is ””we have no doubt whatever”” a literal resurrection of the saints of God, and not of principles nor of doctrines. But another interpretation has been proposed. I once had the misfortune to listen to an excellent friend of mine who was preaching upon this text, and I must confess, I did not attend with very great patience to his exposition. He said it meant blessed and holy is he who has been born again, who has been regenerated, and so has had a resurrection from dead works by the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. All the while he was preaching, I could not help wishing that I could propose to him the difficulty, how he would make this metaphorical interpretation agree with the literal fact, that the rest of the dead lived not till the thousand years were finished? For if the first resurrection here spoken of is a metaphorical, or spiritual, or typical resurrection, why the next where it speaks of the resurrection of the dead must be spiritual, and mystical, and metaphorical too. . . The fact is, in reading this passage with an unbiased judgment, having no purpose whatever to serve, having no theory to defend, ””and I confess I have none, for I know very little about mysteries to come,”” I could not help seeing there are two literal resurrections here spoken of, one of the spirits of the just, and the other of the bodies of the wicked; one of the saints who sleep in Jesus, whom God shall bring with him, and another of those who live and die impenitent, who perish in their sins.199

It is clear that Spurgeon comments on the two resurrections, separated by the 1,000 years; are not as Murray states, "far from common in his sermons,"200 but a regular and consistent theme, when he dealt with the topic. Here is a final example of his statements on this subject:
Now we believe and hold that Christ shall come a second time suddenly, to raise his saints at the first resurrection; this shall be the commencement of the grand judgment, and they shall reign with him afterwards. The rest of the dead live not till the thousand years are finished. Then they shall rise from their tombs and they shall receive the deeds which they have done in the body201 [emphasis ours].

There is one other prophetic theme which requires some attention. Spurgeon's view on the future of Israel as a people and as a nation bears some attention in this discussion. It has already mentioned that he believed that:
It is also certain that the Jews, as a people, will yet own Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of David, as their King, and that they will return to their own land, "and they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the old cities, the desolations of many generations.202

At a special meeting at The Metropolitan Tabernacle on June 16, 1864, Spurgeon preached on "The Restoration and Conversion of the Jews," on behalf of the British Society for the Propagation of the Gospel amongst the Jews. In this sermon he laid out several important statements about the future of the Jewish people. First of all he believed that the Jews would physically and literally return to inhabit and have political control over their ancient land. He stated:
There will be a native government again; there will again be the form of a body politic; a state shall be incorporated, and a king shall reign. Israel has now become alienated from her own land. Her sons, though they can never forget the sacred dust of Palestine, yet die at a hopeless distance from her consecrated shores. But it shall not be so for ever, for her sons shall again rejoice in her: her land shall be called Beulah, for as a young man marrieth a virgin so shall her sons marry her. "I will place you in your own land," is God's promise to them. . . They are to have a national prosperity which shall make them famous; nay, so glorious shall they be that Egypt, and Tyre, and Greece, and Rome, shall all forget their glory in the greater splendour of the throne of David. . . I there be anything clear and plain, the literal sense and meaning of this passage [Ezekiel 37:1-10] ””a meaning not to be spirited or spiritualized away”” must be evident that both the two and the ten tribes of Israel are to be restored to their own land, and that a king is to rule over them.203

He also believed that the conversion of the Jews was to come through Christian preaching by means of the church and other societies and mission agencies that God might raise up for that task.204
In this section it has been demonstrated that in his sermons Spurgeon presented a clear and consistent view of key eschatological events. First of all, he believed that the "Return of Christ" would be literal, personal and it would be to the earth. While he taught that the Second Advent would precede the millennium; he also taught that the exact timing of this return was completely unknowable to human speculation; that it was foolish at best, and wicked at worst, to delve into such speculation. Secondly, in relation to the "Millennial Reign," Spurgeon believed again that it was Christ's return that would mark the beginning of the Millennium. The Millennium was to be a period of Christ's personal rule on earth, and that it was not to be equated with the eternal state. Finally he believed it was only the "divine interposition," which is the Coming of Christ and the establishment of His Kingdom, that would bring to a culmination the Church Age.

Or Art Katz all over SI

The prophecies of Zephaniah, as is true with all the prophets of Israel, speak not only to the present condition and immediate future of the nation, but also its eschatological future and end. So one is warned of the Babylonian judgment then pressing at the door but at the same time an intimation of a similar judgment that is future, bearing many of the same aspects, but having wider implications for all the nations as well as Israel itself. What remarkably distinguishes the latter from the former, are statements of finality, of annihilatory devastation followed by miraculous recovery and return by a remnant of the survivors and then an enduring, never-again-to-be troubled peace and security and a world-recognized glorification and honoring of the nation formerly despised and ill-treated. That such conditions are yet unknown to Israel indicate that they are yet future.
The pattern of Biblical prophecy, invariably includes a severe condemnation of Jerusalem’s depravity and debasement””a reflection of the nation’s total, now irremediable condition. This invites a fierce and extensive judgment, but as Zeph. 3:.8 indicates, the same is intended to other nations ("The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger” NIV). Israel’s surviving remnant who also "trust in the name of the Lord”(v.12) is assured of an abiding safety ("never again will you fear any harm… Do not fear O Zion” vv. 13-16) as the recently experienced sorrow and despair ("do not let your hands hang limp”) is forever abolished.
This judgment alive in the recent memory of the surviving remnant is described as a "punishment” (v.15) inflicted by the "enemy” who are then judged by God for their oppression(v.19). God Himself then gathers "the lame” and the "scattered” (v.19) "from the most distant area imaginable” ("beyond the rivers of Cush”, v.10, see NIV note).That this ingathering is to be distinguished from that of the pre-judged Israel, 1948-93 [time of this writing] is signified by the frequently repeated eschatological phrase "at that time”; (vv. 19, 20; see also "On that day” vv. 11,16); that it is performed exclusively and supernaturally by God Himself [To distinguish it from the Zionist effort that preceded it?] by the emphasized "I will gather you; at that time I will bring you home” (v.20); to altogether verify that all this is yet future [but not distant in my expectation] is the mention of undeserved honor before all the world ["I will give you honor and praise among all the peoples of the earth"””the antithesis of present Israel's reception by the nations today] as God’s own exclusive work "before your very eyes” (v.20).
What is remarkable and needs to be pointed out in the Redemption preaching of the same prophets that had announced the judgments, is that "forgiveness is promised… utterly without suggestion that it had the people’s repentance as its precondition. This was a different kind of faith than was required to accept Judah’s death.” [In my opinion exactly the same!]… "Now, with no empirical basis that Judah would ever be enabled to return from Exile, with no real moral transformation among the chastened but disheartened survivors of the Exile, they began to promise God’s deliverance… out of the mouths of the two prophets [Jeremiah and Ezekiel] who had so rigorously denied any hope of escape from judgment”(pp. 106-7)!
Raitt enumerates the distinctives of this unprecedented prophetic declaration:
1. "There is a remembrance of the time of judgment” [as recent in the experience of those now obtaining deliverance]. 2. "God gives to the people or creates in them a new capacity to respond to him ["A new heart I will put within you"]".3. Knowing God and obeying God "is specified as another goal of the divine intervention”. 4. "God restores their fortunes [and] returns them to the Land” .5. "The saving act involves repentance and turning toward God not as a prerequisite but as a consequence. The divine initiative: "his ‘I will’ comes prior to the mention of any human initiative” (pp. 116-7). God’s gracious initiative is unconditional as it must be, for what condition can a devastated Israel supply? (While we were yet sinners "dead in transgression and sin” CHRIST DIED FOR US).
Thus, "the mercy of the deliverance did not ignore the integrity of the judgment. In other words, this was perhaps the way that early deliverance preaching was shown to be distinct from false prophecy.” "Jeremiah and Ezekiel trusted God unto death””the death of their state, the death of Judah’s historical mission, the death of their countrymen. They trusted God’s goodness, justice, and His effective plan for history [my emphasis as it is so critical for prophetic consciousness of the Endtime Church] as they faced the abyss. And they did not promise what, if anything, was to come afterward (i.e., when they proclaimed the judgments). Judah was asked by them to accept its end, on faith, without assurance of anything beyond”(p.103).God alone must be that assurance and that faith alone is true faith when that death is the death of one’s own previous views and assurances about God! It is as if to the degree that we honor and accept unbegrudgingly the judgments, to that degree also do we ‘see’ and have the privilege to proclaim the Restoration. Perhaps this is exactly what is at stake in making prophets prophets [i.e. the Church the Church!], not only to see, not only to proclaim, but by that proclamation to establish it!(Ez.37) As with the prophet Samuel (a deliverer for Israel in time of extremity, because he did not allow the word of judgment to Eli to fall to the ground), neither will He allow our word to fail””even that final and ultimate word that raises the dead from their graves”” if we do not withhold the earlier words of judgment!
Indeed, at the final impasse of history, nothing less than a resurrected people will suffice. "Because God’s will for the redemption of history can no longer tolerate the imperfection (sic) of His people as His revelatory vehicle, He says: ‘I will give them a heart to know that I am the Lord’(Jer. 24:7); I will put my law within them’(31:33); ‘I will take the stony heart… and give them a heart of flesh’(Ez. 11:19)… [in a word], "God takes the initiative to make Israel both want to obey and capable of obeying… the self-determination of His creatures is placed in abeyance as the Creator God works a deliverance in the very heart of man” (pp. 132-3). "[This] redemption has cosmic dimensions. God’s act of Transformation is amplified so that God as Creator perfects and refashions all of nature as well as Israel’s inner condition… because God has the power to create, He has the power to redeem (p.141). God brings about an eschatological improvement [transfiguration?] in both the human and nonhuman parts of His creation.”
This divine intervention, Raitt points out, has no "reason” to commend it… "In human terms, that intervention is not founded upon anything reasonable… God’s intervention is its own explanation (p.145).God’s initiative, God’s prerogative stand alone. The whole thing is God’s show (p.146)… Israel’s failures do not defeat God” (p.150) Reason enough to see Israel’s role as ‘witness nation’ in an entirely other way? It is her failure that is the cause of demonstrating God’s ultimate glory and not her success. Where is boasting then? It is abolished!
It becomes increasingly evident that the knowledge of God, as He in fact is, is a critical and strategic matter for Him in His dealings with Israel. Evidently, nothing more challenges and expands or deepens that knowledge than the issue of judgment itself. How do we reconcile the God of love, mercy and kindness with the God who himself performs acts of devastation unto annihilation upon those He calls "My people”? Yet more mind-boggling is that "Jeremiah and Ezekiel combined in their sayings an uncompromising message of judgment and an unconditional message of deliverance… neither negate one another, nor contradict one another.” What needs to be asked is "Are the rules by which God operates really changed?”[Israel demonstrating in itself at the end of the age what the world and the church have failed rightly to understand; the centrality of Calvary in the pivotal principle of death and resurrection!] Raitt asks if such messages "move us into a new era for God’s plan within history?”(pp. 174-5).
The question of God brings one invariably to the question of man. The two are inextricably joined and the error in the one invariably distorts the view of the other. Raitt therefore rightly asks whether the initiative taken by God toward man to fit him for redemption independent even of the capacity for repentance is not a statement about the "hopelessness of natural man” himself. And it no longer matters what man does, nothing is any longer conditional upon that… God as Creator changes the situation… so that God the Redeemer can act fully. "Deliverance creates a transformation which produces the repentance expected of God’s elect… When people are brought to that level, then re-election is possible. But God brings them to that level by himself. God creates both salvation and the preconditions for it, both repentance and the preconditions for it, both forgiveness and the preconditions for it, both a new election relationship and the preconditions for it”(my emphasis, p.178).
"Never before has the Old testament presented such a comprehensive structure of deliverance; never before has it dealt so profoundly with the inner condition of man; never before was deliverance articulated not merely as temporary relief but as a full ongoing plan for the future… Just what can follow the kind of judgment which Jeremiah and Ezekiel preached? Only this can follow. This kind of judgment necessitates this kind of salvation (p.179). It is not enough for God to cleanse [Israel] in an act of forgiveness. God has to deal with their proven and enduring tendency toward waywardness. Perhaps in this respect, above all else, the deliverance is truly radical in what it undertakes” (p.181). [What is especially significant for us as Jews who have long presumed to being morally and ethically superior to others is that this creative and redemptive act of God brings a new millennial obedience not on the basis of our "moral achievement, but as a consequence of the act of redemption"(From Frohrer's Ezechiel, quoted by Raitt in a footnote, p.260)] "For of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things””to whom be glory forever”..
"The forgiveness, therefore, is purely an act of God’s intervention, an exercise of his divine prerogative, an assertion of his freedom… Forgiveness is taken out of the sphere of religion and become once again part of the mystery of God. In religion people think they can formulate an understanding of the terms of God’s action, the cause and effect relationships, the preconditions of divine favor. But here as in Hos. 11:8-9, God is merciful because he is God. This cannot be institutionalized. The whole deliverance message compels the recognition that God is now recapturing his God-ness, that God is reestablishing his freedom” (p.190).
"The Israel of the future is not the [progressively improved] Israel of the past. It is freed from its sin and changed in order to relate to its God in a new way. In such an atmosphere there can be a new covenant; certainly the old one will not do. [Now]There can be an everlasting covenant (Jer. 32:40;Ez. 37:26 p.199.) [Can we not see that the Millennium demands this permanent and enduring restructuring of the nation's character and life? Nothing hereafter can be subject to change, relapse, or backsliding. This is not a condition to which Israel””or any””might ever have come by process of change or gradualism. What is required is that radical and total newness of life that could only emerge out of resurrection from death! And that the whole of Israel's previous history was proof as well as preparation for this necessity. Why haven't we as the Church seen this?]
What a ‘mitzvah’ for Israel herself as "only an ‘everlasting’ covenant speaks to deep psychological anxieties that had arisen over Judas’s life, identity and purpose being rooted in its [experience] of rejection and Exile (p.203). The people are creatively transformed into a new humanity; accordingly a new level of obedience and knowledge of God is required of them and made possible for them. This covenant is therefore inviolable” (p.201). Raitt speaks of "The annihilation of the national existence of Israel” as the necessary preliminary to this Millennial glory. But is it not also for us? Is our unwillingness for ‘annihilation’ (at the Cross) a basis for our rejection of Israel’s? How much does our flesh-sparing propensity blur if not oppose the majesty of God’s destiny for Israel through her own death? Except we have an eschatological [i.e., millennial and eternal] view and expectancy we miss the whole genius of this deliverance. Restoration is set in the context of a Theocratic Kingdom and will be missed by those who miss that. If we ourselves require transfiguration unto a glorified body in order to have part from the heavenlies, what is required of Israel from its place among the nations of the earth?
Our understanding of this mystery is critical to our participation: what was represented and demonstrated by Jeremiah, Ezekiel and other Old Testament prophets must be replicated corporately by the prophetic-remnant Church of the Last days! The prophet is no mere spectator but the agent that brings Israel to her hapless condition through the word of judgment but equally restores her through the word of Resurrection as event! Raitt quotes the distinguished Old Testament scholar, G. Von Rad who sees this:

I already told you which ones did. I'll look in the volumes for you with exact quotes later when I'm home

What you asked for PP:

Premillennialisin is so clearly taught in Revelation 19 and 20 that it is hard to understand how anyone can think otherwise without realizing honestly that they are going against the Biblical text. A kingdom reign of the Messiah was just as clearly taught in the Old Testament. Jesus and His Scripture-writing disciples also support the notion of an earthly kingdom headed by the Messiah. Such clearness in the Bible provides the likely reason why the early church fathers who spoke on this matter were all premillennialists.

THE FIRST PREMILLENNIAIJSTS

The first premillennialists were those who received God's revelation and wrote it down in the Bible. Eusebius tells us that one of the earliest church fathers that had heard the Apostle John and others who had known the Lord and His Apostles was Papias (AD 60-130), the bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia, Asia Minor. Papias taught "that there will be a millennium after the resurrection of the dead, when the kingdom of Christ will beset up in material form on this earth." (1) Irenaeus (AD 130-202) tells us that Papias "related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times" (the Millennium) in book 4 of Papias' writings, which are no longer extant, except a few fragments. Papias is recorded as saying: "there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth." (2) Polycarp (A.D. 70-155), bishop of Smyrna, is also said to have been a premillennialist. (3) The Epistle of Barnabas (written between AD 120-150) presents the common belief that "in six thousand years, all things will be finished ....then shall He truly rest on the seventh day." The writer speaks of the second coming of Christ with the clear implication that He will setup the thousand year kingdom on earth, followed by the eighth day or the eternal state. (4)

Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) in his Dialogue With Trypho c. AD 140, a Jewish man, made the following premillennial statement: "But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then he built, adorned, and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare." (5)

Justin considered premillennialism an aspect of orthodoxy in his day, "And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place." (6)

IRENAEUS AND TERTULLIAN

Two of the greatest ante-Nicene fathers were Irenaeus and Tertullian (AD 160-230). Irenaeus grew up in Asia Minor and was discipled by Polycarp, who knew the Apostle John. Irenaeus had a very extensive view of Bible prophecy in his last five chapters of Against Heresies, which were suppressed throughout the Middle Ages by anti-premillennialists and rediscovered in 1571. (7)The restoration of a more literal interpretation and reading of the early church fathers by many post-Reformationists led to a revival of premillennialism in the early 1600s. (8) Irenaeus' writings played a key role because of their clear premillennial statements. "John, therefore, did distinctly foresee the first 'resurrection of the just,' and the inheritance in the kingdom of the earth," he says, "and what the prophets have prophesied concerning it harmonize [with his vision]." (9) Again, Irenaeus declares, "But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom." (10)

"RIGHT-MINDED CHRISTIANS...ARE ASSURED THAT THERE WILL BE A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, AND A THOUSAND YEARS IN JERUSALEM, WHICH WILL THEN BE BUILT ADORNED, AND ENLARGED, AS THE PROPHETS EZEKIEL AND ISAIAH AND OTHERS DECLARE." -- JUSTIN MARTYR

Tertullian, who gave us the Latin word "Trinity" was also a strong premillennialist. He makes his premillennialism clear when he says the following: "But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem, 'letdown from heaven,' which the apostle also calls 'our mother from above;' and, while declaring that our citizenship is in heaven, he predicts of it that it is really a city in heaven. This both Ezekiel had knowledge of and the Apostle John beheld." (11)

OTHER EARLY PREMILLENNIALISTS

Another outstanding premillennialist of the early church was Lactantius (AD 250-330) of North Africa. He wrote an important defense of Christianity that was the first systematic expression of Christianity called The Divine Institutes, which included a section on prophecy. Lactantius said: "But when the thousand years shall be completed, the world shall he renewed by God, and the heavens shall be folded together, and the earth shall be changed, and God shall transform men into the similitude of angels, and they shall be white as snow; and they shall always be employed in the sight of the Almighty, and shall make offerings to their Lord, and serve Him for ever." (12)

Virtually everyone who wrote on this topic for the first two to three hundred years of the church's history was a Millennialist. The list would include individuals like: Clement of Rome, who wrote a letter to an early church around AD 95; (13) Ignatius of Antioch, who is said to have been a disciple of the Apostles John and Peter. Early church tradition tells us that he was thrown to lions in AD 107); 14) Theophilus of Antioch (AD 115-181), who wrote one of the first accounts of primitive church history; (15) Tatian of Assyria, who died in AD 167; Melito, Bishop of Sardis, who died in AD 170; Clemens Alexandrinus, who was a contemporary of Justin Martyr; Hippolytus, a disciple of Irenaeus was martyred in AD 230 for his faith. Victorinus, Bishop of Pettau who died in AD 303; Methodius, Bishop of Tyre died in AD 311; an Egyptian bishop named Nepos of the third century; Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage was martyred in AD 258; and Commodians, a Christian historian, who wrote about AD 250. (16) Others could be added to the list.

"BUT WE DO CONFESS THAT A KINGDOM IS PROMISED TO US ON EARTH, ALTHOUGH BEFORE HEAVEN, ONLY IN ANOTHER STATE OF EXISTENCE..."
-- Tertullian (c. 155-230)

CONCLUSION

It is generally recognized within the scholarly world of early church historians that premillennialism was the most widely held view of the earliest church tradition. One of the leading experts on the doctrine of the early church is J. N. D. Kelly, who says, "millenarianism, or the theory that the returned Christ would reign on earth for a thousand years came to find increasing support among Christian teachers...This millenarian, or 'chiliastic' doctrine was widely popular at this time." (17) "The great theologians who followed the Apologists, lrenaeus, Tertullian and Hippolytus, were primarily concerned to defend the traditional eschatological scheme against Gnosticism," explains Kelly. "They are all exponents of millenarianism." (18)

Philip Schaff, the dean of American church historians and himself a postrnillennialist, provided the following summary of the early church's view of the millennium: "The most striking point in the eschatology of the ante-Nicene age is the prominent chiliasm, or millenarianism, that is the belief of a visible reign of Christ in glory on earth with the risen saints for a thousand years, before the general resurrection and judgment. It was indeed not the doctrine of the church embodied in any creed or form of devotion, but a widely current opinion of distinguished teachers, such as Barnabas, Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, and Lactantius." (19)

European scholar and church historian, Adolph Harnack echoes Schaff and tells us, "First in point of time came the faith in the nearness of Christ's second advent and the establishing of His reign of glory on the earth. Indeed it appears so early that it might be questioned whether it ought not to he regarded as an essential part of the Christian religion ." (20)

The Bible is the sole basis from which a believer in Christ should learn what is true. What others have believed down through church history is really not the issue. However, when we believe the Bible teaches a particular doctrine, it is not surprising that others who ha' read the Bible see the same thing. This is exactly what we find in the early church in regards to premillennialism before allegorical interpretation began to dominate. Maranatha

Oh ok, so I have more modern, more historic, respected church early fathers, etc. but just not in the exact span you are holding up as "important"? I will research some more & let you know what I find out. This is really why I just really prefer to stick to "comparing Scripture with scripture" (Julius started & went from quoting scripture to who put importance on this).

But to answe your question and kill two birds with one stone (who did it in the first thousand years of church history & where is it in scripture), I can answer that again:

The Apostle Paul, Romans 11

The apostle Paul never referred to the thousand years.

"Calm down" don't make the mistake of trying to read tone or whatever in my written posts. I'm perfectly calm. 😊

I have addressed how Romans 11 & Romans 9 are talking CLEARLY about two different things many times before in multiple posts. In Romans 11, Paul says, "his countrymen in the flesh", "a partial hardening has come over them temporarily", "don't boast against the root...we were grafted in to them, not them to us....", etc. & more language showing he is clearly talking in Romans 11 about actual physical/literal/natural Israel, NOT "spiritual Isarel as in Romans 9. If you read those posts, it's either crystal clear by context & language, or you just don't want to see it. I don't mean that "emotionally", just lovingly & truthfully (& hermeneutically). 😉
God Bless you,
Jeff

Todd,
I honestly don't know. Maybe someone else has an answer? Not sure.
God Bless,
Jeff

Hi docs,

Yes, I know you think zecariah is talking about the Lord's second coming. We will have to agree to disagree.

Blessings, bro.

"As I pointed out before it could include every single human alive today"

That's well....nonsensical.

You telling me an Assyrian Iraqi is part Jewish? Or an African from Libya (Put) or Ethopian from Sudan (Cush), or a Turk, or a South American Brazilian Amazonian, or a Native American? No.

I don't know where it starts & stops, but I know "every American on earth would qualify as Jewish" is wrong. Like Hyperbole for the sake of holding up a paradigm. So Lebron James is part Jewish? I don't have all the answers, but I know when common sense his been left in the dust.

And I don't mean at all to be rude or disrespectful, I promise. I just know God knows what he meant exactly by what He said, where He starts/stops these things, etc. & the article/statement just seemed like over exaggerating to prop up a paradigm.

God Bless,
Jeff

"The artical/statement is purely secular/scientific and mathmatic."

Yeah, but I read the article and didn't get what you got from it. Look, we obviously are all "related" when you go back. We all came from the seed of Adam. But the Semitic people who were God's chosen were Israel. If they were "all the same" & related, then was God wrong in separating a distinction between Jacob & Esau? Or better yet, Isaac & Ishmael? No, of course not, it was a straw man argument plain & simple. Not the article, but how you are apparently trying to overstate it to make "your point". Certainly comes across that way. If God chose Israel, at least in the OT we can agree He did, how did God know since we were all so related anyways since Adam, & post flood Noah & family. It seems to me like a fallacious straw man argument. Sorry, but it really does. As to where the seed starts/stops/mixes/percentages/etc.: I'm sure the same God that knew the answer to the question of how were they separated & distinguished under the covenant then, still knows today.
God Bless,
Jeff

oh oh, now i'm in trouble....so stone me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qh6Uqc_84OE

In Jesus love, neil

Neil,
Nice!

TMK,
Not trying to open a can of worms here, & I have genuinely had concerns concerning IHOP before too, but when you say "ultra heretical outfit", that's really strong & clear language. Heresy is that teaching which is against the basic Biblical orthodox doctrines of the faith (the essentials) & is damnable. Can you please email me at "jeffmar1130@aol.com" (not get a slaughter fest going here on the forums) & show me what teaching exactly you are referring to that fits that definition? I would really appreciate it brother.
Thanks & God Bless,
Jeff

amen, I love that song Misty sings to the Lord, and I am in TOTAL agreement with you on IHOP...or "IHOPie" stuff, gold dust, or that 'phewwww' sound a certain denom's members make, or "soaking", etc...

you know what I been asking of the Lord, Todd? just one brother in the Lord, with a travailing prayer burden for revival up here in these north wildwoods.

I live in a very wild northern tier rural area, county is the size of Manhattan, but has 20,000 souls, and dozens of church buildings, which are very dry and cold...not one of them has a stand alone dedicated prayer meeting, and most of the saints within are elderly, no youth.

I have next to the main house, a really nice guest cabin, which I dedicated to the Lord, and God willing, as Led, I want to hold a Tuesday and/or Thursday night intercessory prayer meeting,(asking the Lord for revival in the district) BUT I dare not noise it about ALONE, that is folly, I been praying and looking and talking for just one other brother, that has a similar burden, because if one attempts to start something as robust as a "wet" prayer meeting, all the forces of the devil and hell get stirred up...this is a battle in the Heavenlies, and just like in warfare, lets say we were both "Lurps" (that's LRRP, "long range recon patrol") you go in two's or fours, its just like when Jesus sent men to speak of the Gospel...the Lord sent them in two by two's, we "cover each other's six", just like in a human war, so if you could, please send prayers to the Lord for this endeavor.

then this to be named brother and I noise the meeting about and God willing attract ...say 3 other saints, so we can watch God work on our knees, or on our faces, anointing the floor with our tears....such prayer meetings are just heavenly....and as God is sovereign in revival (ask, seek, knock)...what could be better than watching God saturate a county, or counties with His Spirit, convicting and saving souls BEFORE they even come into a church building?

I haven't given up hope, I will never give up hope for a revival here, but we need more tears......that's what i'm asking the Lord for....for His Glory and Majesty, souls going from death to Life, Life in Christ....God love you brother Todd, and God love every soul that reads this and just gives utterance to prayers for my burden for revival in this county....so here, this is for you to listen to, as I would love to be able to testify one day as Duncan Campbell does in this compilation, entitled "Young Donald McPhail Prays".....but it all starts in prayer.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=5675

much love in Jesus, neil

TMK,
Oh. Lol. 😊 May be time for 40 year old Jeff to look into possibly getting some glasses, eh? 😎
God Bless,
Jeff

This thread may have a good ending!!! Yeaaah :) One day soon enough, we may all be sharing a jail house or something. In that day, I am pretty sure we wont be debating eschatology, we will be living it :) And then we will know what we need to know. Love all you guys and I thank the Lord for the Body of Christ, it is a mystical beautiful thing..........bro Frank

This thread may have a good ending!!! Yeaaah :) One day soon enough, we may all be sharing a jail house or something. In that day, I am pretty sure we wont be debating eschatology, we will be living it :) And then we will know what we need to know. Love all you guys and I thank the Lord for the Body of Christ, it is a mystical beautiful thing..........bro Frank

Yeah, I agree. But, the important thing is being missed that we just don't seem to be able to get to with so many "straw men", created. I am going to cut to the chase and jump right to it soon, in another post. The Bereans did not search the scriptures for the sole purpose of "being right". Really, who cares about that?

The important thing that I hope to bring out, is how the pretrib, premillenial view negates the gospel of Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. That is really the object when reviewing belief systems: Do they agree with the essential aspects of Christian doctrine? This belief system advanced in 1830 by John Nelson Darby ascribes biblical significance to almost every new development in current world events. That alone, is weird and that is how so many fables have developed, today. Every new, sensational development on earth today, is being given some esoteric biblical significance. This is not why the Word of God has been given to us.

But, back to what is vital and important. I will show how this belief system really presents ANOTHER JESUS, ANOTHER GOSPEL and ANOTHER PLAN OF SALVATION? Other than that, I don't care how people want to predict the end of the world, I am only interested in rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

Does anyone on this thread even see this? Another Jesus, another Gospel and another Plan of Salvation?

Julius,
That's actually hilarious to me that you would start out your post talking about so many "strawman" and then go on to lump in together the historic Premillineal/Restoration/Futurist view with Dispensationalism, Pre-Trib, & John Darby? And then say that people are just trying to be right and when an argument? Either you're doing that on purpose or you have not read all of the posts. And frankly if you're going to tell me that you understand the purpose of Jesus's sacrifice and the gospel better than men like Charles Spurgeon, George Mueller, John Bunyan, Horatious Bonar, David Baron, Jonathan Edwards, etc. that we all have read their stuff and seen their lives and fruit of their ministry (while we are posting our theological assumptions on an SI Forum), cmon really?

Before you start your thread, could you please just do me a favor, since you said you're very concerned about this strawman argument situation going on here: if you want to talk about John Derby and dispensational premillennialism and the pretrip rapture deceptions great I'm right there with you My friend. Don't do the disingenuous the service of then somehow lumping that in together with historic premillennialism and the restoration of Israel with a future eschatological apocalyptic end still ahead OK? That's disingenuous & if it's done in ignorance that's one thing. If it's continually done with knowledge up front, it's going to be received as deceptive & underhanded.
God Bless you,
Jeff

TMK,
There's been 40 earthquakes in the world in the last 24 hours between 2.5-6.0 on the Richter scale. I don't know if that's "abnormal" compared to recent years. I do know the USGS studies show recent measures worldwide activity over the last decade or so is up considerably from all measurable historic records. You can see what's happening here on the U.S. geological study website:

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/map/

And there are lots of recent reports of measuring indicators of "very big ones" predicted soon ahead. Take that for what it's worth I guess. Opinions will vary I'm sure.
God Bless,
Jeff

PP,

1.) True, Jonathan Edwards was a post millinealist who believed in the future restoration of Israel. He was the ONLY Post-Millinealist on the list too - FYI

2.) False, HISTORICAL Premillinealists believe in the future restoration of Israel. Charles Spurgeon, Horatious Bonar, John Bunyan, etc. all believed that. In fact, in John Bunyan & Horatious Bonar's books on "JUDEO-CENTRIC PRE-MILLINEALISM" there are chapters on the fiture restoration of Israel & the Jewish people. So you are incorrect sir. I actually posted them but you probably didn't bother reading them (you called it "spam" I believe?).

God Bless,
Jeff

I just say your post, PP. So, I think I have this right.

Jeff, a few questions for clarity sake: Maybe will dispel the confusion that others have, too.

1. Do you believe that in the post-Parousia millenial reign of Jesus Christ on earth that the earth will still be under the influence of sin, corruption, and death?

Tell me if I am wrong in my thinking in trying to differentiate between Historic Premillenialism and Dispensational Millenialism.

1. Historic premillennialists believe the church is the new Israel, that is, the new spiritual Israel. It occupies the place in the new covenant that Israel occupied in the old.

2. Dispensational premillenialists, on the other hand, do not see the church as replacing or fulfilling national Israel. They assert that all references to "Israel” in the New Testament are references to ethnic Jews or believing ethnic Jews (see Gal. 6:16).

Also, historic premillennialists do not believe in a future restoration of national Israel. Historic premillennialists believe in a salvation of ethnic Israel but this salvation is viewed as incorporation into the Church. And this salvation is different from the concept of restoration in which Israel is saved as a national entity with a role to play to other nations in the future. In summary, historic premillennialists often believe in a salvation of Israel but not a restoration of national Israel.

Dispensationalists, on the other hand, believe in both a salvation and restoration of national Israel. Israel is saved and then restored to a position of prominence and service to the other nations on the earth. The coming millennium is also a time when God will fulfill all aspects of the Abrahamic, Davidic, and New covenants with Israel and the nations.

Do I have this backwards or is this about right?

Straight up questions, please don't read into them.

Thanks.

by proudpapa on 2016/4/22 14:27:42

Jeff wrote "So you are incorrect sir."

Jeff wrote : ///False, HISTORICAL Premillinealists believe in the future restoration of Israel.///

Modern Premillinealist that reject the pretrib rapture call themselves 'HISTORICAL Premillinealists' but that is a misleading title.

"Historic Premillinealism draws its name from the fact that many of the early Church Fathers...apparently believed and taught that there wold be a visible Kingdom on earth, after the return of Christ." - monergism.com

The early Church writings did not teach a "JUDEO-CENTRIC PRE-MILLINEALISM" !!!!

Hmmm, thank you, very interesting.

I'm not going round and round on the "early church believed xyz" PP. you can redefine terms of you want, but it doesn't change it. I'm most interested in what the Bible (& especially the prophetic texts of the prophets, Jesus, & Revelation, as well as other confirming texts) on prophesy teaches anyways.

Julius,
I will answer your questions as soon as I have time. You know what I wonder sometimes? If I read everyone's articles, links, etc. & people keep asking me questions on things I have already answered (some of them many times), is this really a discussion? Or is it just ignoring what I post to get back to asking me more questions, having me to redefine words again, etc.? I guess what I'm asking is, if people of a Preterism/Amillineal/Historic/Replacement Theology Framework of interpretation are convinced & not "REALLY" willing to look into other things they haven't seen/heard/studyed/examined before, is this a waste of time? In other words, if the point isn't iron sharpening iron & attaining to the knowledge of the truth as at least the goal where one is willing to lay ALL the info side by side & really look at all of it, pray about it, study it, ask the Lord, be willing to be wrong, etc. is it just a one-sided predetermined suppositional argument stance? That's not directed at you Julius, & I will answer your questions later, but I am really starting to wonder that honestly. I am a little slow on large scale realizations sometimes. Forgive me. Lol 😊

PP,
Actually, it is clear from all of the prior discussions thatyou didn't believe as I believe, nor have you looked (nor willing too apparently) at what I have looked at & am recommending. You came from a John Darby brand of Dispensationalism, with a Roman Anyichrist background (as almost everyone else) & moved to a Preterist/Amillineal/Supercessationist view. And are now strawman broad brushing what I'm sharing as such (which is wrong), & unwilling to revisit the issue (which is surprising if you were so wrong before that your "reactionary theology" move to Preterism/Supercessationism might also be wrong again).

I NEVER believed Dispensationalism. Ever. I got saved in a prison cell & spent 21 months not following the common prophesy teachers of the day, but reading the Bible day and night for 21 months. I wasn't a pre-tribber for one single day of my life - were you? I then went and put myself through Bible College (mostly a waste of money really except the "Jewish Roots" teacher was phenomenal), & I have been in various levels of study & ministry for the last 18 years. But just recently I felt clearly led to do a very specific, detailed, focused study on these issues. And so where I am coming from it's not where you say you are coming from in the past as far as having someone else shape all my understanding and positions on these things.the Lord is also steadily confirming these things in both my study, by dreams, other confirmation, etc. And I didn't start out on this with a preconceived notion/agenda, but "Lord, teach me what is true from your Word. I don't know & understand all these things & it's very confusing as you listen to all the sides use "their proof texts" & interpretations.

The Lord is & has been answering that prayer. And I wish teaching was my primary gift, but it's not, but I pray it's getting a little sharper/better over time by God's Grace? My heart is for evangelism & my mouth was gifted for something else, but it's not teaching specifically.

Anyways, God Bless you friend!
Jeff

You wrote...

"Jeff, most of us at one time believed like you do"

Bro what exactly are you basing your assumption on. Jeff has been saying that the Antichrist will be of Islamic descent. This view has only come up on the radar in recent years. And right now that view is still a minority view.

So are you saying that at one time you believed that the Antichrist was going to be of islamic xescent?

Just wondering bro. :-)

Bro Bear

I thought he was saying many of us used to believe in premillenialism. I could be wrong, and you are right Bear, the Islamic thing is relatively new. Makes sense since there was not this type of activity from Islam in the 1800s. Premillenialism seems to change and be dictated by whatever the world's dominate current events are.

Or, prophetic fulfillments that can say "this is that" or likely so, are just easier to see rightly as they are actually coming to pass rather than pure theoretical future "guesses"

And it could be "just changing" (which is a whole other subject) or it could actually be accurate, right? 😊

by jeffmar1130 on 2016/4/22 17:33:09

Or, prophetic fulfillments that can say "this is that" or likely so, are just easier to see rightly as they are actually coming to pass rather than pure theoretical future "guesses"

And it could be "just changing" (which is a whole other subject) or it could actually be accurate, right?

Sounds like you are implying it could actually be wrong, too. Nice to know you are willing to change as the current events change.

I don't think you understood me correctly Julius, but of course I could always be wrong. But the case purely from scripture is compelling. Way more so than for A Preterist Interp, a Dispensationalism Interp, or assuming a Roman Antichrist. Unbelievably more.

PP,
Respectfully, Considering theories of Ahmadjinadad as the antichrist is not the same thing as real study. I am in no way trying to "manipulate" you. Be sure of that. If you read a book from Phillip Mauro (again, a guy who said that if Israel became a nation again we must question the entire NT - that's just a fact & while some try to minimize or ignore it, or turn around quoting his own words as unfair), then I would just recommend reading one book called Mideast Beast. See if it doesn't challenge your previously held beliefs, FROM the scriptures.

Different peoples idea of "study" and "looked into it" Are different. All I'm saying is, if you read Phillip Mauro, "but haven't found anything else as compelling", I'm just asking, why wouldn't you be willing to read something else that I can almost guarantee you have not looked at some or most of, & consider you "might" be wrong about "something"? I mean you no harm friend, nor am I trying to manipulate you. Why is it when preterists & Preterism is pushed openly, then more low key, then defended like an empire, etc. but someone finally is willing to spend the time to address its issues & plead to at least consider another view, then it's "manipulation"?
God Bless,
Jeff

Julius,

"Sounds like you are implying it could actually be wrong, too. Nice to know you are willing to change as the current events change."

Are you? Willing to be wrong & willing to change if in fact you are? No sarcasm. An honest question.
Thanks,
Jeff

If I may make a suggestion, "The Islamic Antichrist" by Joel Richardson is better. It's the later edition culmination he wrote later alone (he separated from Walid as he got into some strange & radical views - A militant form of Roman Catholicism - FYI). It wets the appetite to realize this may actually be it. Then Mideast Beast goes deep into the scriptures point by point, verse by verse - FYI.

by jeffmar1130 on 2016/4/22 18:29:48

Julius,

"Sounds like you are implying it could actually be wrong, too. Nice to know you are willing to change as the current events change."

Are you? Willing to be wrong & willing to change if in fact you are? No sarcasm. An honest question.
Thanks,
Jeff

Absolutely, and it is proven by the fact that I have already changed my views. I used to be pre-wrath Rapture.

I have a question for you Jeff. This will be a good question for you brother since you are in the middle of an intense study right now. Where is Satan and the fallen angels right now? Was Satan defeated at Calvary? Was man set free from the power of the enemy at Calvary? Does the power of Calvary set me completely free?..............bro Frank

I JUST now read your precious post!!!

I remember you, my sister, you were the one who canted my attention to the ministry of brother Wesley Duewel, and what a dear man in the Lord, I downloaded and listened to his teachings and exhortations, God love you for that, thank you!

and to see you write this about the saints in Smyrna, GA, and I quote you:

" Do you know I have been asking the Lord for the exact same thing??? for 1 or 2 sisters who know how to travail in the Spirit, for revival here in Smyrna, GA, right outside of Atlanta.........Your are exactly right in not trying to pray for revival by yourself; the Lord has impressed the same thing on my heart to pray for another to bear the burden with you. I believe God is the same yesterday, today and forever. If He could do it in Finney's day, why not today? Why not here and now??
I know the Lord has heard us, Neil. He gave us the burden to begin with!!"

let me quote that last sentence again:

"I know the Lord has heard us, Neil. He gave us the burden to begin with!!"

I am joyous beyond joy!.....and doesn't it all make sense in the Lord?....you are in lower southeastern tier, Smyrna, GA, I am in Upper central north Midwestern tier, Viroqua, WI, which is near the Great River, Vernon County, which is in a most unique area, called the Driftless Area (wiki that when you have the time).....doesn't it all make Perfect Sense in the Lord?, for we are all like tiny candles across the nation, surrounded by "dry wood"...one could say, "how limp! DRY wood!"....but it is good the wood is dry!...it burns hotter....set it aflame Lord, with a Holy Fire!

Now, Renee, brother Frank appolus is a precious brother in the Lord, he is beloved to me, and at one time, the Lord gave him a prayer ministry HERE, via conference call...it was so anointed, so heavenly...maybe if brother Frank feels led again, such ministry could be re-established?....its not the same as the face to face revival prayer meetings we seek....but could it be the Push?....to our heart cry and burden, "Lord, just send that one other saint to Smyrna and Viroqua, please God?"

That burden for a weeping ministry! that burden for a Heaven sent Revival, that would sweep millions into the Kingdom....just tiny candles of Light, the Spark that kindles all that dry wood into Flame, Aflame for Jesus! All for Jesus, and the Power and the Majesty of Jesus, Messiah!

oh, what a wonderful evening in the Lord, God Bless you Renee and keep you is my prayer tonight, God love you, your brother neil

afterword, beloved sister Renee, the Lord wanted me to give this song to you, I feel in my spirit, it will bless you...it always blesses me whenever I hear it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKOQSpfFASQ

Frank,
As far as where is satan and the fallen angels right now? I know some say he is chained in the abyss. Which fundamentally contradicts the passages that say "he roams about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour" and several other passages. We say the accuser has not yet been cast down. Revelation says that happens yet in the future. As far as "was Satan defeated at Calvary? Yes. His power was broken, but the final manifestation of it wasn't done away with for good. And yes, the power of Calvary sets us free from the power of sin, but we will not be "totally free" until we are free from this flesh, just like we will not fully see & know until we are fully known, when the perfect comes. It's like Holiness. The Bible says we are Holy, Righteous, etc. positionally because of Jesus & the new birth. But we can walk in unrighteousness, unholiness, etc. Practically. So we have a taste & a deposit now, but it will not be fully realized/reaches until He returns. That doesn't mean it was incomplete or wasn't paid in full, it just means we walk in a taste of the kingdom now, but not the fullness of it. So even though the devil was defeated once for all at Calvary, he still roams around like a roaring lion seeking whom He may devour, He still hasn't been cast into the Lake of Fire with his angels, etc., Just like how the disciples were saved before Pentecost, but then had a baptism in the spirit, but still needed to "be ye filled always" again, until the day that we see Him in the fullness of His kingdom & have the fullness of His Spirit unhindered by this present world, this body of flesh, etc. When you start down the road, in my opinion, of saying, "we have it all now", that's true & false biblically. We have all we need for life & godliness in this present world, but we aren't what we will be when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye at the resurrection. There is more. This isn't "it". I'm not belittling what we have now when I say that, but looking to the Blessed Hope of what we will have one day that's even better (a greater, unhindered fullness). I hope that makes sense.
God Bless,
Jeff

HI Jeff,

You wrote..........

". When you start down the road, in my opinion, of saying, "we have it all now", that's true & false biblically."

Now brother, you know all I did was ask a couple of basic questions :)

Jeff you wrote.........

" We say the accuser has not yet been cast down. Revelation says that happens yet in the future."

Is this the Scripture you are alluding to and when you say cast down, cast down from where to where?.......bro Frank

And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. (Rev 12:2-4)

Brothers we may have to start a new thread on when was Satan defeated. I think this threat is becoming a little convoluted. I must repent. I think I have added to the convolution.

Brother Blaine hiding in the bear cave from those pots and pans.:)

Brother I sincerely hope and pray that you have been spared from the greater flood damage in Houston.

Maybe we need to take some of those pots and pans that are being thrown in this thread and come down there and help you bail out.

Seriously brother I hope you have been spared from greater flood damage.

Brother Blaine

but I love the message and word in this song:

""Babylon, you throne gone down, gone down;
Babylon, you throne gone down."

Said I hear the words of the Iyaman say:
"Babylon, you throne gone down, gone down;
Babylon, you throne gone down."

And I hear the angel with the seven seals say:
"Babylon throne gone down, gone down;
Babylon throne gone down."

I say fly away home to Zion (fly away home);
I say fly away home to Zion (fly away home).
One bright morning when my work is over,
Man will fly away home"

----------------------------------

oh! one Day Babylon, you gonna be thrown down!

am I "un-orthodox?....yes, and I love Jesus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOATRcZX7Xc

Bro Blaine has started a new thread on Satan. This is good. Yet, there was a reason I asked the questions. First, it took the eyes of the pot and pans throwers of the subject at hand, but most importantly, it is actually the key to the whole debate, so I suggest the Issimites answer carefully :) That was a tongue in cheek folks in case all sense of humor has been driven from the forum :) It will be an assault to the ego though to think the answer to the question of where Satan is and why could put to bed the theologies of men :)...........bro Frank

Brother Bill pace yourself. Hopefully you got some neighbors that will help you with the cleanup. Unfortunately I am here in Little Rock so can I come down with a pot or pan to help you. But I do send my prayers to you bro.

Brother Blaine

Definitely MrBillPro,
Take it easy & may the Lord bless you. I will be praying for you. I spent 6 months (& several trips) with my family down there between Katy, Conroe, the Golden Triangle, Galveston & everything in the middle that is Houston, & I know the area pretty well. I even did some street preaching & ministry with a brother down there in Galveston way back once upon a time. I pray you get everything back to normal, but especially that your health would prosper through this time.
God Bless,
Jeff

older brother, please forgive for seeming to ignore your REAL earthly troubles, my fervent prayers go out to you this very second!

God is with you , o man of God!!! Praise the LORD!!!...and you! God loves you to give the gift of grit! 80% cleaned, huh?.....and that after a triple!!

never met you , face to face, but I always have loved you from afar.....we got a similar malady, I was walking around in the depths of this northern winters with a 99% clogged artery...lol.......but God still wants me here, so I had her plumbed out in Feb.

"This is just a testimony, that even at 64 and after a heart attack, you can come back, with God in our lives, nothing is impossible. "

love that! ..."with God in our lives, nothing is impossible. "......amen!, THAT is the Gospel, the for sure Good News.....love YOU!!! neil