Some questions about the proposed Millennium

Isa 59:20 has always been regarded as a Messianic prophecy by the Christian Church of Jesus Christ coming to deliver (save) us from our sins.

"And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD."

And we see Paul, himself a Jew, referring to this same fulfilled Messianic Prophecy.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

He shall DELIVER (save) His people from their sins.

Paul says this after dealing with "the fulness of the Gentiles" having come in and now Jews are saved. Together, they are regarded as "All Israel". ALL Israel cannot only be the Gentiles or only be the Jews.

Remember, Paul speaks of two Israels in Romans 9.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9:8 is the explanation of 9:6.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: (ALL ISRAEL are believing Jews and Gentiles who are saved by faith in Christ)

Back to the Messianic prophecy of Isa 59. Jesus Christ is the Deliverer and He came out of Zion (Jerusalem). But this verse is reinterpreted as a future verse regarding the millenium (end of the tribulation, beginning of the millenium). Since we know Jesus Christ came out of Jerusalem the first time, died and resurrected to DELIVER us from our sins, premillenialists also use this verse for the 2nd coming to emphasize Jesus Christ will deliver Israel from their physical enemies which is what Israel has always believed, and thus missed the Messiah the first time. Evangelicals are supporting this notion that Christ is coming again to set up a physical kingdom on earth and slay the carnal enemies of ethnic Israel.

Why do we know that "All Israel shall be saved", does not mean all earthly Israel will be saved? Because in v14, Paul says "MIGHT SAVE SOME OF THEM".

Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and MIGHT SAVE SOME OF THEM.

Let's just deal with the first time Jesus came to see if this verse works: Could it mean ALL JEWS will be saved the first time? This does not mean all ethnic Jews at the time of Christ's first appearing will be saved because Judas, who was called "the son of perdition", obviously died in his sins. Jesus also told many Jews, "If you do not believe I am He [the Messiah], you will die in your sins” (John 8:24). Not every Jew believes in Jesus Christ, thus many will "die in their sins” and be lost.

So, if this verse does not apply to the 1st century, let's see if it applies, later. Many Christians today interpret Romans 11:26 as applying to the end of the seven-year tribulation when Jesus appears in the clouds at His Second Coming. In other words, they don’t apply the verse to all Jews throughout history, but only to "all Jews” who are alive at the end. Supposedly, at the end of the tribulation, all remaining Jews in Israel will look up, see Christ coming in the clouds, realize He is the true Messiah, believe in Him, and thus "All Israel will be saved.”

How can this not be false teaching? Let me show you why it is a false Messiah and a false Gospel.

1. The context of Romans 11 is not the Second Coming.

2. "There is no partiality with God” (Romans 2:5-11). It would be an act of partiality to save "all Jews” at the end, but not "all Jews” in history. The idea is, "When all final Jews see Christ coming in the clouds, then they will believe.” But this would give those final Jews a supposedly irresistible opportunity to believe in Jesus Christ which past Jews have not had. Nor would this be fair to "all Gentiles” living at the end. Why would God save all Jews at the end but not all Gentiles? All Gentiles will see Jesus coming just like all Jews. What if some Gentiles say, "hey that is Christ, I repent", will they be saved? No, according to premillenialists.

3. Is it too late to believe in Christ when He appears? What does the scripture say? When Christ finally appears in the clouds, IT’S TOO LATE TO BELIEVE IN HIM. Rev. 22:11,12 says that before He comes in the clouds, all decisions have already been made. Jesus said it will be like Noah’s day (Mat. 24:37-39). In Noah’s day the door of the ark closed before the flood came (Gen. 7:16). When the flood came, it was too late. To save all Jews AT THE SECOND COMING would be like saving all those outside the ark WHEN THE RAIN STARTED FALLING.

4. When Jesus comes in the clouds, this is the time of judgment upon ALL unbelievers who don’t know God nor obey the gospel (2 Thess. 1:7-10; Jude 14,15).

So what does all this mean, "All Israel shall be saved”? First of all, Romans 9:6 says there are two Israels. One is an Israel according to the flesh (Romans 9:3,4) and the other is the Israel of God (Galatians 6:14-16). The Israel of God is composed of both Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:29). Gentiles who believe are grafted in. They become part of the "same body” with believing Jews (Eph. 3:6). Paul calls this unity of believing Jews and Gentiles, "the mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:4).

The immediate context of Romans 11:26 is vs. 25. When "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,” then "all Israel will be saved.” Or, to be exact, "And so all Israel will be saved.” In other words, the coming in of the fullness of the Gentiles results in "all Israel” being saved. Paul’s idea seems to be that when the Gentiles have come in, that is, have been grafted into the Vine, they, uniting with the Jews who have become believers, will form the total number of the saved (All Israel). Paul also reveals that when Gentiles come in, God can use this to motivate some Jews to believe (verses 11 & 14). Vs. 25 calls this whole thing, "this mystery,” which we have already proven to be the "mystery” of both Jews and Gentiles being united in one body through Christ (Eph. 3:4,6). Vs. 27 says all are saved because Christ takes away their sins through His covenant, which must be the New Covenant, which applies to all believers, Jew and Gentile. Thus the "all Israel” that is saved is the total group of believing Gentiles and Jews combined.

The "all Israel that is saved” does not apply to all Jews throughout history, nor can it apply to a select favored group who become instant believers at the end of history, when Jesus Christ comes crashing down through the sky. By that time, it is too late to believe.

This selective, instantaneous, sovereign salvation denies the blood of Christ and salvation by faith. It clearly is another Jesus and the fables that Peter talked about. I am convinced that Paul had to fight not only the issue of the law with the Judaizers but he also had to fight the issue (lies) that the Messiah was coming again to establish a physical kingdom on earth and slay ethnic Israel's carnal enemies for this is what the Judaizers believed. You know they were contending with Paul regarding a future earthly kingdom. Paul knew that the kingdom of God is not of this world.

The Jesus that is taught by premillenialists is a Jesus that I do not know neither is it a "voice" that I am familiar with.

John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the VOICE of strangers.

Julius,
Well at least You finally didn't beat around the bush & hide what you really believe so confirming so much for me (& others frankly), but your post BEGS THE QUESTION, since you said yourself the following below:

"The Jesus that is taught by premillenialists is a Jesus that I do not know neither is it a "voice" that I am familiar with.

John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the VOICE of strangers."

Besides the extremely bad exegesis & use of scripture repeatedly out of its context again (& conjecture what "Paul was dealing with" in addition to what the whole scripturally stated point of Galatians and elsewhere really is), I have a question: if "it's another voice of a stranger that the sheep don't follow" (that would be a damnable heresy claim friend), but you said yourself YOU USED TO BE A DISPENSATIONALIST, were you not saved then? If you were, why did you follow the wrong voice (using your own construct)? So which is it friend?

This just highlights again for me the main big problem with Preterist style of Biblical hermeneutics, interpretation & refusal to look at everything in its greater context.

and in this corner, at 15 stone....."IST"....and in the other corner! we have "ISM" at 15 stone!

it shall last until one or the other, tires, or realizes the horror of religious PRIDE....and meanwhile many new forum members shall be aghast and stumbled.

and in the Heavenly Courts, JESUS WEPT.

Neil,
God Bless you friend. My heart is not to "win" but to warn. I don't fast & pray to win arguments. Sorry if it comes across that way. I never said people who bought into what I believe is false (Preterism) are "False Salvation". I am warning Against the teaching, not attacking & accusing those who believe it as "False Beievers". I think something I have Been praying about just showed its head. I may just get off & stay off & let the preterists have their way here then. That's clearly what I saw when I came back. The Gospel of Preterism & Relacement theology. If I didn't feel compelled It was dangerous I wouldn't spend time on it brother.
God Bless you,
Jeff

I'm also a bit lost here...yes there are all sorts of "false gospels" out there.
Most importantly we need to know the true Gospel in order to save .
According to the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology edited by Walter Elwell, "the gospel is the joyous proclamation of God's redemptive activity in Christ Jesus on behalf of man enslaved by sin."

Salvation is ultimately the work of the HS, a new believer becomes a "new creation" and "by their fruit we shall know them."

Let's take it one at a time, just to make it less complicated.

Isa 59:20 has always been regarded as a Messianic prophecy of Jesus Christ coming to deliver Israel from sin in His first advent. Of course, many Jews saw this as physical deliverance from their carnal enemies and still do.

"And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD."

"transgression in Jacob" --> speaking of Jews

Peter, speaking out and proclaiming that "ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL" needs to know this!! After speaking, 3,000 souls were saved. Therefore, Isaiah 59:20 is fulfilled because the Redeemer (who came out of Zion), came to 3,000 souls that turned from transgression that day. And Isaiah continues to be fulfilled each time a Jew turns from his transgression to the Redeemer.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
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Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Do Futurists/Premillenialists agree with the fulfillment of this verse or do they reinterpret this verse to mean this will happen in the millenium and it means that Jesus is going to deliver ethnic Israel from its carnal enemies when He comes again and sets up shop on earth?

Is this a carnal deliverance or a spiritual deliverance.

Notice, that Roman 11:26 is not talking about delivering Israel from carnal enemies but from their ungodliness. It is a spiritual deliverance which first took place in the Book of Acts.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

by jeffmar1130 on 2016/4/22 20:24:40

I have a question: if "it's another voice of a stranger that the sheep don't follow" (that would be a damnable heresy claim friend), but you said yourself YOU USED TO BE A DISPENSATIONALIST, were you not saved then? If you were, why did you follow the wrong voice (using your own construct)? So which is it friend?

I was kind of a dispensalionist by default, meaning I accepted the pre-wrath rapture of the church, but did not know at the time that dispensationalism/millenialism came along with it. At that time I was only concentrating on the theologies surrounding the rapture and I was very young in the Lord.

For a very, very long time, I used to receive Marv Rosenthal's monthly magazine called Zion's Hope. I intellectually accepted the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church because I did not believe in "Escapism", but never really seriously studied different end-times views. I bought his book, "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church", and at the time it sounded better than the Pre-trib rapture nonsense. So, at that time I was mainly concentrating on theology surrounding the so-called "Rapture", but not studying millenialism at all. Here is Marv's website if you are interested in knowing who I am talking about. I loved his missions oriented, evangelical outreach to the Jews, but I have grown in my own scriptural views of his end-time views since then. I think as we study the word and pray and seek the Lord concerning His word, we should grow and it's ok to say that I believed this or that a long time ago. I don't think anyone arrives on day 1 with a full understanding of God's Word, and in fact no one in this life ever reaches that point, period.

I do think it is important to take a critical look at all of our beliefs and see if they make scriptural sense from all angles. I find your presentation lacking and not making any scriptural sense. Hence my original questions to you in the first post of this thread.

Here is Marv's site.
http://www.zionshope.org/index.aspx

by brothagary on 2016/4/22 23:48:09

25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB

Clearly this has not happened yet ,clearly the fullness of the time of the Gentiles has not come yet,and Clearly he has not removed the ungodliness away from Jacob ,because there is still a huge partial hardening happen to date ,,,,

Like you said, "there is still a huge partial hardening". That is because it is a process not a single futuristic event.

"Blindness IN PART" has happened, so the Deliverer HAS COME and removed ungodliness from those who were not blinded and had not hardened their hearts, such as the 3,000 on the day of Pentecost. We cannot say that Jesus did not deliver them from their ungodliness because He did exactly that? Paul the Apostle is one that was delivered from ungodliness.

Paul is saying there are more that the Deliverer will deliver from their ungodliness and when that has happened "ALL Israel", (speaking of spiritual Israel) Jew and Gentile together will be complete/saved. It is a process that is taking place. It is not a set time only in the future of a single sovereign event and the book of Acts proves that and Jews that have been saved throughout the last days (last 2,000 years) prove it.

We all must be saved by faith in the Gospel. "Having not seen Him, we love Him".

Why would only secular, unbelieving Jews recognize the Messiah coming in the clouds and Gentiles not recognize Him? Both are secular, both are faithless and godless, many atheistic and many are even friends of one another. What is it that Jesus is going to do sovereignly that only saves Jews? What Gospel is that?

Yeah, I would like to change the title, too. I have not been comfortable with it. In reflection, I admit it is too provocative. Any ideas?

I will change it to, "Some questions about the Millennium"

You still didn't answer my question/s Julius? Let me try again (cause your accusations of my, or anyone who believes like I do, as having received a false Gospel, a false Christ, & a false salvation are not "a small thing" friend. Please read and answer this question:

your post BEGS THE QUESTION, since you said yourself the following below:

"The Jesus that is taught by premillenialists is a Jesus that I do not know neither is it a "voice" that I am familiar with.

John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the VOICE of strangers."

Besides the extremely bad exegesis & use of scripture repeatedly out of its context again (& conjecture what "Paul was dealing with" in addition to what the whole scripturally stated point of Galatians and elsewhere really is), I have a question: if "it's another voice of a stranger that the sheep don't follow" (that would be a damnable heresy claim friend), but you said yourself YOU USED TO BE A DISPENSATIONALIST, were you not saved then? If you were, why did you follow the wrong voice (using your own construct)? So which is it friend?

PP, political, ethnic salvation is a false gospel message.

Ancient Rabbinism is being used in premillenialism. Jesus rejected the idea of setting up an earthly kingdom.

Christ's kingdom on earth is spiritual in character not political and it is not the true Jesus who will wipe out carnal enemies of a particular ethnic group.

But come to think of it maybe I shouldn't use the word ethnic since Jews are of all ethnic backgrounds, but I can say religious group since many are not religious. So, I must use nationalistic group.

Let me rephrase now. If a "Christ" comes, who is responsible for influencing the destruction of nationalistic Israel's carnal enemies, then it is a false Christ.

This explains what I mean by false gospel and false Christ. I'm not saying the brothers participating in this thread believe in a false Christ. Sorry, if I communicated that. Though, they may unwittingly be preaching and teaching things that Christ already rejected when He came the first time.

Jeff, I answered your question. You missed it.

Here are some other questions surrounding the "Millenium" that I have.

If you are a premillenialist, whether dispensational or not how do you answer these important questions?

1. Does this belief system propose that physical death will continue to exist beyond the time of Christ's second coming?

2. Does this system believe that the natural creation will continue, beyond the time of Christ's second coming, to be subjected to the curse imposed by the Fall of man?

3. Does this system believe that the New Heavens and New Earth will not be introduced until 1,000 years following the return of Christ?

4. Does this system believe unbelieving men and women will still have the opportunity to come to saving faith in Christ for at least 1,000 years following His return?

5. Does this system believe that unbelievers will not be finally resurrected until at least 1,000 years following the return of Christ?

6. Does this system believe that unbelievers will not be finally judged and cast into eternal punishment until at least 1,000 years following the return of Christ?

It seems to me that sin in the lives of God's people, corruption of the natural creation, and the experience of physical death would terminate upon the appearance of Jesus Christ. And that the resurrection of the body, and the final judgment, would commence?

by joliboy11 on 2016/4/23 11:47:05

Honestly, brother, I don't know all the answer to your question regarding tjhe future reign of Christ, but I believe that the Bible has plentitude of references to it:

Psalms 22:27-29 (KJV)
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

Psalms 86:9 (KJV) All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

Psalms 102:13-16 (KJV)
13 Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.
14 For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof.
15 So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory.
16 When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory.

I recommend listening to Art Katz, "Theocratic Kingdom" sermon

Yes, brother Joliboy, we have an answer in Rev 7:9:

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Paul is differentiating between the 2 Jerusalems.

"Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." (Gal 4:24-6)

Today, we are members of Jerusalem above by faith in Christ. We serve a spiritual King in His spiritual kingdom, which is within us.

That spiritual city is "down", now. The Church on earth.

Heb_12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

It is a statement of divine activity within the Believer (Kingdom of God is within you) not a geographical location. Just like we are born from above (John 3:3,7), but are still on earth.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Jesus Christ is "the light of the world" (John 8:12), the "light of men" (John 1:4), having "come into the world to enlighten every man" (John 1:9). The light of Christ enlightens all within this holy city.

"God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all" (I John 1:5), so in the eternal day of the Lord "there will be no night there" (21:25; 22:5).

Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Jesus Christ is the "way" (John 14:6), having provided open access to this "holy city" by His substitutionary death.

"Its gates shall never be shut" (21:25), just as Isaiah explained that "your gates will be open continually; they will not be closed day or night" (Isa. 60:11). No security measures are necessary, for "Jerusalem will dwell in security" (Zech. 14:11).

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Residency in this city is exclusive to those "whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27), recorded in the heavenly register as having been identified and spiritually united with Jesus Christ.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Just as there was "a river that flowed out of Eden" (Gen. 2:10), John sees "a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb" (22:1). Ezekiel saw water flowing from the temple, and it was announced that "everything will live where the river goes" (Ezek. 47:1-12). Jesus provides that "water of life" (Rev. 7:17; 21:6), for He is the "well of water springing up to eternal life" (John 4:14) and His indwelling presence produces "rivers of living water" (John 7:38). The psalmist referred to this reality of "a river whose streams make glad the city of God, the holy dwelling places of the Most High" (Ps. 46:4). Just as "the tree of life was in the middle of the garden" (Gen. 2:9), so John sees the river "in the middle of the street, and on either side of the river was the tree of life" (22:2). Throughout Scripture the "tree of life" represents the abundance of the expression of the character of God. Jesus said, "I came that you might have life, and have it more abundantly" (John 10:10). This speaks of "the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control" (Gal. 5:22,23). "The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations" (22:2), John continues, for they abrogate the effects of the fall of man and restore God's intent for all of His creation.

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Is there any more curse to those who are in Christ? Is the throne of God (speaking of authority) and the Lamb in Zion, the Church? Do we not serve the Lord, now? "God is not served with human hands, as though He needed anything" (Acts 17:22), but is "served" by our availability and submission to His Lordship wherein we allow Him to "form Christ" in us (His character expressed in our behavior). Thus we serve as "bond-servants of Christ" (Gal. 1:10).

In accord with Zechariah's prophecy that "there will be no more curse" (Zech. 14:11), John also indicates that in the "beloved city" the "curse" that came in the fall of man (Gen. 3:17) would no longer be present (22:3). Christ took the curse for us on the tree of crucifixion (Gal. 3:13), and Christians need not incur the curses for disobedience (Deut. 27,28) but may participate in the "blessings that are ours in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:3).

Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

John saw an intimate heavenly relationship and he describes it as seeing God "face to face". To Moses, God said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live" (Exod. 33:20). In His sermon on the mount Jesus said, "Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God" (Matt. 5:8).

There is a sense in which we can "see God" as Christians, for "God has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ" (II Cor. 4:6), but we still look forward to "seeing Him just as He is" (I John 3:2) "face to face" (I Cor. 13:12). Meanwhile, like Moses, "we endure, as seeing Him who is unseen" (Heb. 11:27).

Those who reside in the spiritual and heavenly "city of peace" have "His name on their foreheads" (22:4), which seems to mean that they are identified with God in Christ as the fruit of the Spirit and the character of Christ is evidenced in their lives.

"They shall reign forever and ever" (22:5). Though we "reign in life now through Christ Jesus" (Rom. 5:17,21) throughout the "thousand years" - Last Days - (Rev. 20:4,6), "if we endure, we shall continue to reign with Him" (II Tim. 2:12) eternally.

I said once that the Book of Revelation was written to serve as an encouragement for Christians of all ages to endure and persevere during the time between the Lord's first coming and second coming as they hope for the consummated victory in Christ. Until that time, Christians must be willing to share in Christ's suffering even unto death. The emphasis of the book of Revelation is not on charting future events eschatologically, but on the life and character of Jesus Christ lived out through His Church despite probable mistreatment (in the world ye shall have tribulation) and the temptation to revert to religious self-preservation.

What's the point. The twisting never ends in this place
from the other side

Saints,

The position of SermonIndex is that there is a physical thousand year kingdom on earth where the Lord will reign. This has been the position of almost the entire Church since the beginning, ie Apostles, Early Church, right up through to now. Of course there have been different thinking at times but overall this has been the main viewpoint on the larger scale of Church history.

So it seems strange that all of a sudden we can find out the better truth in the last few years before our Lord comes back. It reminds me of things like Head Coverings for sisters, this was a practice in the ENTIRE church for almost 2000 years and now in the last 40-50 years through femnism and liberial theologians many denominations have re-interpreted this passage in 1 Corinthians 11. It should be noted that views on Divorce and Marriage have also been changed but where always believed in one-way for the entire Church age. Name me a denomination that would allow a divorced person to be a teaching elder 50 years ago. There were none! But today it does not matter. The only explanation is that the Church was under severe legalism for almost 2000 years and now it has seen the "light" so to speak.

This is a wonderful statement of faith from the underground house churches in China (a large segment of them): https://archive.org/download/principlesv4/64_StatementofFaith.pdf

Docs,

The mistake that many make is to view Revelation as sequential, chronological events. I don't know about you, but one thing this study has done for me is to remind me of the wonderful, present realities that are available in Jesus Christ. An anemic, powerless, worldly church ignores these realities.

I will let the Word speak for itself. Are these realities present in your life or are you waiting for them to be manifested in the future?

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Death had always caused sorrow and tears but death has now been defeated by Jesus Christ and we no longer lament death.

Isa 35:10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

All of Isaiah 35 is now a present reality to those who lay hold of Christ.

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Joh 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

2Co 7:4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

The early church was a rejoicing church.
Act 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Isa 43:19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, IT IS DONE. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, IT IS FINISHED: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Isa 12:3 Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation.

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

And as you can see in the midst of these verses we have this admonition which is a promise for the future: this underscores that John is encouraging the Church with present realities.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

On the underground church, I don't know if one statement of faith can speak for millions and millions of Chinese Christians. We have to remember that many Chinese Christians were heavily influenced by Darbyism, and even deceived by the rapture teaching. Corrie Ten Boom highlighted this and said this teaching caused many to fall away when persecution came. No where in the NT is the millennium taught. Many take the thousand years on Revelation 20, to be a computationally exact time, rather than a figure of speech as it has previously been used in the Bible.

Modern teachings of Revelation nullify many present realities because they want to turn the book into a book of sequential, chronological events.

On the underground church, I don't know if one statement of faith can speak for millions and millions of Chinese Christians. We have to remember that many Chinese Christians were heavily influenced by Darbyism, and even deceived by the rapture teaching. Corrie Ten Boom highlighted this and said this teaching caused many to fall away when persecution came. No where in the NT is the millennium taught. Many take the thousand years on Revelation 20, to be a computationally exact time, rather than a figure of speech as it has previously been used in the Bible.

Modern teachings of Revelation nullify many present realities because they want to turn the book into a book of sequential, chronological events.

I think the Chinese church would tell us not to take their word for it, search the scriptures for yourself.

What did the ante nicine headcovering loook like ?

probably like this brother: http://www.earlychristiandictionary.com/Veil.html

Let's not talk about headcoverings in this thread, if you don't mind.

by TMK on 2016/4/24 8:41:09

I wish someone would answer J's 6 questions with "yes" or "no" answers. It would help clarify what is actually believed by premillenials.

David- you seem to be suggesting, as others have that Julius (or I) do not believe in a literal and physical 2nd coming of Jesus.

I can tell you that I certainly do, and I fairly certain Julius does too.

I just think that when Jesus returns, the Church is raptured and that is when the new heavens and earth are created. There are no second chances for anyone beyond that point.

The belief in a literal 1000 mile cube resting on or near the earth, given the extreme and pervasive symbolic and apocalyptic language of Revelation, is dubious at best.

Thanks, TMK. I will repost those questions that no one has answered.

If you are a premillenialist, whether dispensational or not how do you answer these important questions?

1. Does this belief system propose that physical death will continue to exist beyond the time of Christ's second coming?

2. Does this system believe that the natural creation will continue, beyond the time of Christ's second coming, to be subjected to the curse imposed by the Fall of man?

3. Does this system believe that the New Heavens and New Earth will not be introduced until 1,000 years following the return of Christ?

4. Does this system believe unbelieving men and women will still have the opportunity to come to saving faith in Christ for at least 1,000 years following His return?

5. Does this system believe that unbelievers will not be finally resurrected until at least 1,000 years following the return of Christ?

6. Does this system believe that unbelievers will not be finally judged and cast into eternal punishment until at least 1,000 years following the return of Christ?

It seems to me that sin in the lives of God's people, corruption of the natural creation, and the experience of physical death would terminate upon the appearance of Jesus Christ. And that the resurrection of the body, and the final judgment, would commence?

Additional questions:

When you read Revelation 20:4-6 carefully, notice the things that are NOT mentioned:

1) The Second coming of Christ
2) A bodily resurrection
3) A reign of Christ on earth
4) The literal throne of David
5) Jerusalem of Palestine
6) Conversion of the Jews
7) The church on earth.

These are things which have been "read into” this passage in a vain attempt to give support to imaginative theories and erroneous doctrines.

Those who teach a literal thousand year reign of Christ on earth also teach that the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked will occur at different times, one thousand years apart.

This simply will not fit the words of Jesus in John
John 5:28, 29
28* "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29* and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Whose words are you going to accept? The words of Jesus, or the words of men?

Edited for additions..

David,
Good points brother. Well said & thank you for saying them.

Brother Greg,
Apparently now you're going to get told what you are and aren't allowed to bring up & not bring up in the SI Forum threads? I guess you just have to "stick to the predecided narrative" some are dead-set intent on pushing? Don't forget that the original title & intent of this thread was to call those of Premillineal persuasion deceived false believers who bought a false Gospel (which de facto means one thinks Amil/Supercessationism/Preterism, whether partial or full, IS the (true) Gospel). When you start there, and call other believers false believers (& twist scriptures out of their clear meaning/context to do it), continually answering questions just engenders more strife & argument. Like casting pearls only because someone wants to trample them, & that public ally. And what difference would it make if they were all answered again from scripture: after all, why would anyone receive from someone they've already stated openly they believe to be deceived false brethren?

God Bless,
Jeff

by jeffmar1130 on 2016/4/24 10:29:59

David,
Good points brother. Well said & thank you for saying them.

Brother Greg,
Apparently now you're going to get told what you are and aren't allowed to bring up & not bring up in the SI Forum threads?

God Bless,
Jeff

I am just asking respectfully that this not be turned into a headcovering topic. I complied with Blane when he asked not to turn the "Satan defeated thread" into an endtimes thread.

I'm just asking, that's all. If Greg wants to continue, that is his prerogative. I think he only made a side comment and don't believe Greg is intending to turn this into a headcovering thread, but then another responded and you know how it goes. We can all get on a rabbit trail. I am probably the biggest offender and I try to keep aware of that fact.

Thanks Greg, thanks PP.

Thanks Doc for pointing that out.

We all can be wrong & grow in our understanding in humility (the whole point of iron sharpening iron), but when we constantly shift, are dishonest about our positions, seemingly "change" all the sudden in our public narrative & then deny it & then accuse those who disagree of being false converts & of another spirit, something is actually really seriously wrong.

I am not quick to that conclusion, nor joyful or gleeful about it (quite the opposite), but quite convinced of it (it's called discernment) at this point. Talk about an agenda. I don't know if it's even a "conscience" one or not, but I definitely clearly see it's there.

God Bless,
Jeff

Docs, you said I said "the book of Revelation is not concerned with any future events".

I did not say that and don't believe that.

Will you answer my questions regarding the Millennium?

Hi docs,

Unless someone else would like you to answer the questions there is no need to respond to me as I am bowing out of discussions on the millennium.

Please continue if you so desire.

Brothers I have no dog in this fight. I have tried to stay off the multitudes of end times threads. Bear in mind more godly saints than us have debated these issues. With the result being we still don't have a full understanding of Revelation 20. And there is still disagreement.

If I might humbly suggest go back and read Revelation 20 asking God to open up that chapter. As I looked at the chapter these questions come to mind.

Who are the saints who reign with Christ for a thousand years?

What is the first resurrection?

What is the second death?

What are the thousand years?

When I was involved with The Navigators we were taught inductive study analysis. We were taught to take a passage of scripture and to quiz the passage. We were taught to observe the passage. We were taught to interpret the passage. And then we were taught to apply the passage.

In observing the passage. We were taught to ask who, what, when, where, why, how. You can go online or go to any Christian bookstore and find a handbook on Bible study methods. The best way to analyze a passage is to observe, interpret, and apply.

And by the way the above is done generally without the use of commentaries. But then you have the Holy Spirit who's the greatest commentator.

If you would take the time to do this. The blessings of Revelation 20 maybe will open up. And if this is done in humility. God will reveal His truth.

I would urge those of you in the forum who are really interested in Revelation 20. And this is where the controversy lies. Do an inductive study analysis of the passage.

At this point I do not have the time or the will to do such. But there are some obviously that have a burning interest in the question of the millennium. So I implore you. Do an inductive study analysis of Revelation 20. And then bring your conclusions back to the Forum.

If this is done. Maybe we can get away from throwing the pots and pans at each other. And come in humility to the word of God. Asking the Holy Spirit what He is saying to our hearts.

Saints simply my thoughts posted in humility.

Bro Blaine

If you Google inductive Bible study. Some good sites come up. Inductive Bible study consist of three components. Observation, what does the passage say. Interpretation, what does the passage mean. Application. What does the passage mean to my life. Or how does the passage apply my life.

So forum, any takers to do an inductive study analysis of Revelation 20. If you do. I believe there will be greater blessings than reading the insights of other men. For you will be getting your insights directly from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Simply my faults. Now I will bow out.

Brother Blaine

Yes, you misconstrued. The "emphasis" of Revelation is not a book to chart events, but rather as John outlined in the first chapter, The emphasis is the Revelation of Jesus Christ and that is why Christians in every age will be blessed if they read it. It is not solely applicable to the very last generation on earth, but equally applicable to every Christian in every century.

Revelation 1:1-3

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS"; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. BLESSED IS HE THAT READETH, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.

And, what were the things that John was referring to that "must shortly came to pass", for the NT saints and is equally applicable for saints in every century?

Surely, John was referring to something.

Docs,

There are events that revelation speaks of that happen in every age. It is not a book of events that only happen in the last generation that earth puts forth. I'm sorry, I can't be any clearer than that.

Jeff and I both made a promise to bow out of end times conversations for awhile. Go and study what events in Revelation are common to every generation.

Blessings to you, docs.

Thank you for your viewpoints. I am glad that you can freely share them? I will study them closely but will not reply in deference to Greg's wishes.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=56763&forum=34

Well stated Docs. Well said.
God Bless,
Jeff

Edited for prior mistakes (sorry 😊)

Docs,
That made me think of a lot of things too brother. For one thing, people with an honest to desire to honor the scriptures might understandably point to the passages which say "there is now neither male, nor female, Jew nor Greek (or gentile), circumcision nor uncircumcision on Christ", &/or like we read in Ephesians in our fellowship today, "God has broken down the wall of partition between Jew & Gentile..." These are Biblical truths. Praise the Lord! But a difference in specific role/calling is another issue altogether than a difference "in value" or in covenantal nature. Let me explain: sure, no one is saved APART FROM THE GOSPEL OF GOD'S GRACE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. Amen! No one is getting in just because they belong to this nation or that nation. Maybe that gets lost or misunderstood sometimes (lost in translation). BUT, we must also reconcile Romans 11 in particular, Acts 1, Revelation, & the prophets., so there can be a difference in "roles/calling". And the context shows this very thing! "There is no difference in male nor female". Really? No difference? But doesn't massive swaths of scripture go on to show there are differences? "I don't permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man", and many other similar references. So what gives? A difference in VALUE? NO! A thousand times no. But a difference in role/calling? Yes. Absolutely.
Just like how there are leaders in the body. Shepherds, teachers, elders, deacons. Are they MORE IMPORTANT IN VALUE to God than others? Of course not. But do they have different callings/roles? Yes. Absolutely. And if you look at Romans 11 which clearly speaks of a coming sovereign salvation of Israel being grafted back in, not exalting ourselves against the root & warning sternly against it, etc. You can see that just how the husband is to "love & serve the wife, laying down his lie for her, Even as Christ did for the church", you can also see in the prophets many references to Israel in the end ruling & serving the nations (whatever all that looks like exactly) as a "servant leader" too. Otherwise, the prophets make no sense, Romans 11 makes no sense (if you apply a consistent hermeneutic of interpretation of plainly spoken wording, not the language of Romans 9 where he speaks of "spiritual
Israel"), unless you read it plainly, but CLEARLY speaks of "the root" & us "being the wild olive shoot grafted into them & not the other way around", etc.
So they aren't "more important" Or valuable than we, but it's about God's covenant & promise keeping reputation & character on this people God Himself has chosen for a specific purpose in the beginning & in the end. I don't have to worship at & kiss the feet of Jews like they are my "master" or something, but I would also never "boast against the root" because to do such is to demand before God, "THATS NOT FAIR!" What God Himself has decreed and His Zeal & prophetic fulfillment will accomplish it. It's a beautiful thing & mystery because it's God at work as He sovereignly wills, not me (who am I to tell God what is or isn't fair? See Romans 7) made me think of a lot of things too brother. I am praying for their salvation & longing for that day (though it comes with great trial), because it means THE KING IS COMING!
I long for that day & seeing God save Israel is the EndTimes mystery of seeing His Grace & sovereign election even still at work in an amazing way. And I love to see the radical (or any) Muslims come to Christ too, because it's like seeing Paul come to Christ. And Christ is going MASSIVELY to the Jews & Muslims at this hour in dreams & visions (as well as other ethnos) & it all makes me filled the prophetic expectation of the soon coming return of our Lord!
Hallelujah!
God Bless,
Jeff

And even the language in Ephesians, "the two become one man" (Jew & Gentile) reminded me of "the two shall become one flesh" (husband & wife). Again, just an example of "2 becoming one", but still having unique roles/callings.

Good stuff brothers.

Also, thanks for posting "The Theocratic Kingdom" by Art Katz again too. Been many years since I heard that message & going back having done more study, prayer, & seeking the Lord on these things, it was good to hear. Always loved Art Katz.

God Bless,
Jeff

PP,
Not trying to dig up bones, but I ran across something that answers your question & does show Judeo-Centric Eschatoogical Restoration of Israel to the land (again as I said, who said what when in the early church fathers isn't an end all be all "litmus" of anything to me, but you asked):

Ishodad of Merv (FL. 850)
If all of these previous predictions are not satisfactory to prove that these men were not influenced by natural trends or ideas popular in their day (David Baron, Nathaniel West, JC Ryle, Septimus Sears, Charles Spurgeon, Adolh Saphir, Horatious Bonar, Samuel Prideaux Tregelles, Jonathan Edwards, Sir Isaac Newton, Wilhelmus A Brakel, Thomas Brightman, etc.), then consider this one final prediction that dates back as far back as the ninth century. Ishodad of Merv was a Christian bishop over the city of Hadatha near modern-day Tiberius. In his commentary on Micah 5:3, he wrote, "He shall give them up until the time when she who is in labor has brought forth.' This what the prophet calls Jerusalem. This means He will abandon them to the afflictions of captivity until the time of the return. This means that these predictions will not come true before they are back from their captivity."
When did Ishodad declare this? It is written in 850 AD, 1,100 years before the modern Jewish state was born!"

"When a Jew Rules the World", Joel Richardson, page 203, chapter 14, "The Peophesied Jewish Return to their Land"

Again, don't care to argue & not the strength of why I believe it, but only answering you cause you asked friend.
God Bless,
Jeff

It's been said that God's glory is best expressed in His servanthood lived out through others. The glory is not always a powerful presence that radiates with shekinah beams and causes those near it to be hardly ablle to stand etc. That's a tangible expression of God's glory and is legitimate. But God's "humble glory" can also be seen in acts of servanthood and service to others. When Christ girded Himself and stooped to wash the disciples feet that was a demonstration of God's glory as much as any cloud of glory and power and light hanging over a congregation. In the same way, God's glory wil lbe seen in a redeemed Israel because this now lowly and contrite remnant will have girded themselvs so as to wash the feet of the nations. Nations wil not learn way anymore and instead will be shown a living example of service to others as the nations themselves begin to model the character of the Redeemer King bodily present again. He is the Suffering SERVANT and the nation will have suffered so as to become a servant. There will be no lording it over the nations as the nation that was the chieftest of sinners will now have become the chieftest of servants. In this way the glory of God will be spread among the nations as the nations learn war no more but begin to learn to wash one another's feet. Amen!

Docs, Greg, is it ok if I ask docs a few questions about his paragraph, above?

It won't be about eschatology or the millenium, I'm done with that. Just some questions for clarity sake. Docs and I know how to converse with one another.

PP,
Again, I could say the same but worse type argument that many who held early & later to hard core "replacement theology" (Origen, Augustin, on up to Luther, Calvin, etc.) advocated the destruction & death of the Jews. And they affected a lot of modern theology, so it goes both ways. If someone was "affected by the Jews" (in terms of explaining how Hebraic Rabbinical writings, language, etc. was to help us understand the OT Prophets) vs someone supposedly with "the correct theology" advocated pillaging, burning, & killing the Jews, then which side sounds more "suspect"? Just also something to consider, I think, don't you?
God Bless,
Jeff

Saints,

Because of the recent arguing and debating that got out of control on this subject we are going to retire this thread.

May we all look forward to the soon coming of our Lord and the culmination of the ages and may the Lord find us obedient in our daily lives abiding with Him.

this thread is locked.