Doctrinal Warfare Is an Addictive Behavior

Well said brother.

Honestly, The trickier point is when you may actually be trying genuinely to share a real heartfelt concern over a specific doctrine you genuinely see as harmful to the church, while trying to not come across wrong, while trying to answer a million questions/objections coming at you like shotgun pellets, while not looking defensive when you attempt to post all the info that answers all the questions/objections you received, while genuinely wanting to share what you have learned from the Lord & his word, while being almost called a heretic or false convert/teacher & not letting that "get in your heart", etc.

It's really about what is your motive, the spirit you are in, etc. Obviously the Lord sees ALL That clearly, but we sometimes can be blind to it ourselves, & may come across differently in this limited 2-dimensional form of communication than is really the case.

Anyways, your post was a well written good point & well taken here.
God Bless,
Jeff

"Some of the most belligerent posters are in the habit of announcing at regular intervals that they are "leaving the forum”...but a few days later they jump right back in the fray. They cannot stay away from the ring for long."

brother Wayne, this happens on facebook a lot too. People say they are going to take a break and then do nothing of the sort. I know you meant "boxing ring" above but this kind of thing also reminds me of the ring (my precious) from Lord of the Rings. It had a mysterious magical power that caused the bearer to become addicted to it. In the books both Bilbo and Frodo tried to throw the ring away but they were soon drawn back by its alluring power.

In a way, being able to express ourselves and sound off on social media, has a certain power about it...which can become very addictive. Especially if we have the "gift of the gab" and are able to impress others with our eloquent speech and knowledge.

Good word bro Wayne, good word.......bro Frank

So I found that, in my case, doctrinal brawling is an addictive behavior, and I know that I am not the only one. Some of the most belligerent posters are in the habit of announcing at regular intervals that they are "leaving the forum” because they are sick of the divisiveness and disunity and hatred””but a few days later they jump right back in the fray. They cannot stay away from the ring for long.

I will leave it to philosophers to philosophize about why Dogma Wars are as addictive as video games, or why it is so easy to hide behind Internet anonymity and behave like a lout. The bottom line is that if we have hearts full of bitterness and sectarian pride IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW GOOD OUR THEOLOGY IS.

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." - 1 Corinthians 13:2

Thank you for your very good word dear brother.

This short article might also encourage saints in the same vein:

Having a Right Doctrine but Wrong Spirit.pdf
https://archive.org/download/principlesv4/27_Principle26.pdf

Yep, good word Wayne.

And of course, no one here is judging that others have a wrong spirit. I'm certainly not and I believe the best about everyone else that they are not, either. I appreciate the contribution of everyone.

Really? Seriously?

"Premillinealism, False Teaching, False Gospel, False Christ, False Salvation by Julius."

"The "all Israel that is saved” does not apply to all Jews throughout history, nor can it apply to a select favored group who become instant believers at the end of history, when Jesus Christ comes crashing down through the sky. By that time, it is too late to believe.

This selective, instantaneous, sovereign salvation denies the blood of Christ and salvation by faith. It clearly is another Jesus and the fables that Peter talked about. I am convinced that Paul had to fight not only the issue of the law with the Judaizers but he also had to fight the issue (lies) that the Messiah was coming again to establish a physical kingdom on earth and slay ethnic Israel's carnal enemies for this is what the Judaizers believed. You know they were contending with Paul regarding a future earthly kingdom. Paul knew that the kingdom of God is not of this world.

The Jesus that is taught by premillenialists is a Jesus that I do not know neither is it a "voice" that I am familiar with.

John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the VOICE of strangers."

And everyone keep in mind, that thread just accused the majority of revivalist preachers on this site & men like Spurgeon, Bonar, Bunyan, etc. of being false brethren as well as many, if not most, of the people on the forums. Let that sink in for a minute. Really. Think about that. With no apology either. If one came forth now after several attempts to point this out, honestly with the track record, I'd have a hard time even believing it. Not that I wouldn't forgive (already have) or wouldn't pray for such a one (already have been), but that there's something fundamentally wrong. Actually, it really reminded me of the words (& spirit) of Phikip Mauro who said if Israel became a state again we'd have to question the reliability of the NT writers (a spirit of accusation against the saints). Of course Mauro's absurd accusations (even against the scriptures) were shown to be Bologna a few years later when he died & Israel did indeed become a nation again, even as real, great men of God like Spurgeon, Bunyan, Bonar, etc. said it would for hundreds of years prior through studying the scriptures.

It's ok to to test doctrine with scripture. It's not ok to personally attack one another.

If I think a doctrine is false it doesn't mean I think the person holding the doctrine is not a Christian. I'm sure you feel the same way.

"FALSE CHRIST, FALSE SALVATION..."

"Jesus I don't know..."

"Another spirit..."

All your words and many more. Don't just gloss over it now like its no big deal or say you weren't saying what you were clearly saying. Own it (& repent). That's what believers do in humility & genuineness when they've done wrongly. They don't continue to change what they supposedly did or didn't say (it's all in the history bro) & refuse to own it. It makes you very untrustworthy in my opinion (& my opinion is all based on clear scriptural concepts & commands like Titus 3 & elsewhere).

Ironic you'd try to dismantle an opposing eschatological view with the whole "it should be all about the inner witness of the kingdom within, victory in Christ," etc. But then go on to accuse, malign, slander, claim opposing views to be unsaved, refuse to admit/deal with/own it in truth? What Kingdom is that? I don't know that to be the Lord's way laid out in scripture, sorry.

You are offended because I think a doctrine is false. I can't help that.

I'm not offended by your words to me. I can help that. I just refuse to take yours and other's words, personally. Keep your eye on the ball.

Imagine that we enter heaven and now it is written of us in the records of heaven that we were divisive and not able to serve others in love but held onto what we thought was right. And our energies were given to debating what we thought was right and not simply obeying the Lord in obedience.

Philippians 4:2

New International Version
I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord.

New Living Translation
Now I appeal to Euodia and Syntyche. Please, because you belong to the Lord, settle your disagreement.

English Standard Version
I entreat Euodia and I entreat Syntyche to agree in the Lord.

Berean Study Bible
I urge Euodia and Syntyche to agree in the Lord.

Berean Literal Bible
I exhort Euodia and I exhort Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord.

New American Standard Bible
I urge Euodia and I urge Syntyche to live in harmony in the Lord.

King James Bible
I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I urge Euodia and I urge Syntyche to agree in the Lord.

International Standard Version
I urge Euodia and Syntyche to have the same attitude in the Lord.

NET Bible
I appeal to Euodia and to Syntyche to agree in the Lord.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
I desire that Euodia and Suntyka be of one mind in Our Lord.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I encourage both Euodia and Syntyche to have the attitude the Lord wants them to have.

New American Standard 1977
I urge Euodia and I urge Syntyche to live in harmony in the Lord.

Jubilee Bible 2000
I beseech Euodias and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.

King James 2000 Bible
I urge Euodias, and urge Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.

American King James Version
I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.

American Standard Version
I exhort Euodia, and I exhort Syntyche, to be of the same mind in the Lord.

Douay-Rheims Bible
I beg of Evodia, and I beseech Syntyche, to be of one mind in the Lord.

Darby Bible Translation
I exhort Euodia, and exhort Syntyche, to be of the same mind in [the] Lord;

English Revised Version
I exhort Euodia, and I exhort Syntyche, to be of the same mind in the Lord.

Webster's Bible Translation
I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.

Weymouth New Testament
I entreat Euodia, and I entreat Syntyche, to be of one mind, as sisters in Christ.

World English Bible
I exhort Euodia, and I exhort Syntyche, to think the same way in the Lord.

Young's Literal Translation
Euodia I exhort, and Syntyche I exhort, to be of the same mind in the Lord;

Julius,
Nice try (redeflection as an avoidance technique is not humility, it's deception). I'm not offended. I'm stating "THE FACTS" from YOUR own words and you are (either by willful blindness or obstinance/pride, I don't know which, but the Lord knows) continuously avoiding the matter. Don't fool yourself friend into "playing the victim" or the "nice guy" here. You called people of the Premil/Restoration view FALSE BRETHREN. You said they received another Gospel (which is ludicrous), another Christ, & another FALSE SALVATION. Those are strong, clear direct statements. Everyone on the SI Forums can read Julius. Your continual "techniques" & avoiding it only confirm what I am seeing come out into the open behind Al the Nicey Nicey comments you put in between when called out. I believe it's a real problem friend. If you don't think accusing massive swaths of real brethren as being false to uphold "YOUR doctrines", then you "don't yet know as you ought to know". I am not offended or bitter. But I am not afraid to address such error & deceit head on & publicly either. I pray you would seek the Lord, go back & read your own words, & let the Lord Himsef by His Spirit bring you to repentance. I can do nothing else in the matter, but won't continue to distract from the real issues by just playing along and answering your "endless questions" & twisting of Scripture. It's a real problem friend and is has more bearing on you than which of the 4 main eschatological views you hold to.
God Bless,
Jeff

Good word Greg,
And FYI - I am CERTAINLY not intending to be divisive, but definitely sense a leading in this whole situation & some of the fruit that has come out in the open. There is a time & place for everything under heaven. Some of what was said Mandated a response I believ in the same way that Peter's a front to the Gospel Mandated Paul's public rebuke. Just please hear & know my heart in that brother.
God Bless,
Jeff

Brother Jeff, please don't take disagreements as personal attacks. I try not to. I propose we take a break from end times discussions and concentrate on what we have in Christ, now. That will keep us very occupied. What do think? You can count me in. Let's talk about victory in Christ now and how we are suppose to be ruling in the midst of our enemy over sin, Satan and the flesh.

I think I could have almost predicted you'd say that actually.

Has happened before. Let's not discuss this subject. Then later Mauro works his way into threads & is being heralded as "the man." It is a pattern that was actually even described & warned against in an article I sent.

Look, I've NEVER attacked you personally. I have never claimed you to be a "false believer". That's you bro. I have only played the ball, stated the facts, & really just quoted you in your own (constantly changing) words. I showed you that. If you can quote me where I attacked you personally for calling you out by quoting your error, I'm happy to look at it.

But first address YOUR words too. You won't own your own words. I am happy to own mine. And I wonder if when Paul rebuked Peter publicly for error (but he still never called him a false brother), if he was accused of being "unloving" or "divisive"? It's the pot calling the kettle black. I am certain that unless you address this & own/admit the error of calling everyone but those of your position false brothers, this will not be dealt with & will eventually surface again. Why? Cause it's a heart issue. If you can't even admit a fault & deny it when I show you your own quotes, what will "not discussing EndTimes for a little bit" really CHANGE really? Nothing.

If you could hear my heart, it's a broken not an angry one, but I say these things with not one ounce of bitterness, offense, or a prideful "desire to win an argument". If you avoid your words/offense/error & use those falsely as an excuse to ignore my words, my heart & conscience is clear. And I don't "really know you" but I pray the best for you. Whether you believe that or not. I believe I have shared what I have felt led of the Lord to share. I will not go on. You have my word on that,
God Bless,
Jeff

Jeff, please quote my words where I attacked you personally and I will gladly apologize. I don't want to offend you by personal attacks.

I don't ask this of anyone else to apologize to me, but I certainly will apologize to you if I personally attacked your character.

if you could, want or led, could you email me, at your convenience?

not to "gossip", but I wont even post on the same thread as those who have shown themselves...VERY CLEARLY....and I wanted to gently query you on a matter, if you please, God love you, neil

Julius,
I don't really want to get into it again. I am just honestly shocked you still don't seem to see (or want to admit) the error in calling those who disagree with your particular eschatological views as those of a "false Gospel, False Christ, False Salvation..." I don't want to dig dirt out of the trenches & rehash it. I mean you no harm, God as my witness. If you don't see the sin in calling real believers false ones (which would be accusing not only me, many others here including the moderators, & many of the featured preachers on SI), I don't know what else can speak to you?
God Bless,
Jeff

Neil,
not sure I have your email? Email me whenever you like at: "jeffmar1130@aol.com"
God Bless,
Jeff

by jeffmar1130 on 2016/4/25 0:19:06

Julius,
I don't really want to get into it again. I am just honestly shocked you still don't seem to see (or want to admit) the error in calling those who disagree with your particular eschatological views as those of a "false Gospel, False Christ, False Salvation..." I don't want to dig dirt out of the trenches & rehash it. I mean you no harm, God as my witness. If you don't see the sin in calling real believers false ones (which would be accusing not only me, many others here including the moderators, & many of the featured preachers on SI), I don't know what else can speak to you?
God Bless,
Jeff

Jeff, don't be shocked, just provide me the quotes.

I shared my thoughts regarding a belief system, not the character or salvation of individuals. If you can't provide the quotes, please stop changing my words as you are continuing to do (above). You know that is not true so why are you persisting? You are showing others how dishonest you are. I just re-read my first post maybe you should, too. Stop lying.

"I am just honestly shocked you still don't seem to see (or want to admit) the error in calling those who disagree with your particular eschatological views as those of a "false Gospel, False Christ, False Salvation..." I don't want to dig dirt out of the trenches & rehash it."

Brothers this needs to end once and for all, you are both bringing disrepute to the name of Christ by this never ending arguing.

Brother Jeff. I love you and love your heart and your passion and hope that one day soon we can chat by phone. But with all due respect I followed that other thread and I do not take it in any way that Julius believes that I or anyone else are following a false Christ or having a false salvation. You seem to want to read this into something he said. He has explained that is not what he said or meant and even apologized if he gave that impression. It is coming across as if you have a vendetta my dear brother and it is time to stop this and walk away.

Brother Julius. I have grown fond of your spirit brother and yet I disagree with you on many things:-) Brother your views about the end times including that the millennium is not a literal thousand years and other non-traditional views are different to what I was raised to believe. But thats ok because we agree on the essentials. With all due respect I have to tell you that although you may not have an agenda, it just comes across that way. Our brother Greg the owner of this site has asked that you cease raising these views and pushing your views in so many threads. The reason is because for whatever reason it just becomes divisive. For all I know you may be right on some of these counts, but they are non-essential issues. Because it is not your site you should heed the request of brother Greg and drop your quest to push your views on others.

I pray that we would all listen to the Holy Spirit in these matters and learn from the Lord and know when it is time to quit. But even more than this I believe it is important to walk in love and forgiveness towards one another. I hope we can all do this on this forum. Precious in the eyes of the Lord are His saints, and we must become just as precious in each others eyes as well. Lets drop these arguments and defer to one another in love. God bless you my dear brothers.

Brother Mark,

Thank you for your post.

I did say I will defer to Greg's desire and not talk about millenialism and I am not posting on it anymore.

I would like Jeff to stop twisting my words. I won't respond to Jeff anymore, as he is clearly goading me. I sincerely apologize for responding to him.

Julius/Mark,
The name of the thread started out as "Premillinealism, False Gospel, False Christ, False Salvation." And then goes on at length to explain his view of just that (that those who believe that "hear another voice", "have another spirit Jukius doesn't know", etc.,Look, I'm not sensationalizing or taking anything wrong. As TMK likes to quote Charlie Brown from time to time: Good Grief! Lol 😊

THE TITLE OF THE THREAD WAS (until I rebuked him for attempting to pull up wheat):

"Premillinealism, FALSE GOSPEL, FALSE CHRIST, FALSE SALVATION"

This isn't a study in etymology or semantics. That's what he called the thread. I'm not "taking out of context" anything. Honestly, I could read that to any of my 4 oldest kids (10-14) & through his thread to them & they could tell you what he was very plainly saying. I'm not bringing disrepute to the Lord. I have constantly said I am praying for Julius, have no ought or offense in my heart towards Julius, etc. but spelling out (a poor case of verses all out of context) & clearly calling everyone who doesn't agre with his eschatology "false salvations", "of another spirit", "following another voice than Jesus", etc. IS A BIG DEAL. Why can't anyone admit this (particularly Julius?)? And every time some wrong, smart-Alek, sarcastic, biting, & devouring, slandering & even accusing of not being the Lord's, behavior is called out, then all the sudden acting nice, innocent in the following posts, but never having humbled oneself to apologize or even own/admit it honestly? That type of "chamelionization" & not being willing to face it head on is actually what is bringing "disrepute" to the Lord's name. Theres more the Lord clearly showed me I don't even want to go into, but CLEARLY that's enough. That was no small thing. I am literally shocked if no one else seems to think it is enough to say, "hey Julius, you did pretty much say that, titled the thread that, not admit it, not repent, etc." As someone said before, I have kids too. 6 of them to be exact. And I know when they just aren't owning a major fault/sin against their siblings. I won't give them a pass until they see it, own it, confess it & apologize. Why? Because I'm "mean" or "I want to win an argument with them"? That's ridiculous, of course not. Because I love them & they must not know God's ways (& I take them to the Word) & that those kind of fig leaves & lack of love towards their brothers & sisters are not right, & God sees it, knows it, records it, & they will stand before Him one day and give an account. So I'm not making a mountain out of a moehill here. I don't even have to dig in the trash & pull out all the quotes (I could go back and show you sharp, sarcastic, biting, ugly comments for weeks, & somehow all when the subject of Israel's place in the Last Days, or a scriptural framework that would allow for that not to be just explained away, came up - for whatever reason?), but honestly, the title to the thread was enough. Isn't the fact that he put it up there & then when called on it, he changed it, saying what it is right there? "Oh, I guess I could have picked a better title, so I changed it"? Really? That's it after calling everyone false converts (but yourself and the handful of others who agree with you). "FALSE GOSPEL, FALSE CHRIST, FALSE SALVATIOlN" = False Converts. Does that even need to be pointed out and explained? But the content of the thread especially the ending didn't change - "MY SHEEP FOLLOW MY VOICE AND WONT FOLOW ANOTHER."...."I (JULIUS) DON'T KNOW THAT VOICE OF PREMILLINEALISM". Forget that these aren't blood of Christ, cross, Born again New Creation salvation issues for a minute (context), but see what is being played. I'm not asking you to agree with me Julius. I, at this point, am just saying be a Godly man, admit what you were really plainly doing calling those who disagree with your eschatology "false", admit/own it, & repent. If you're so focused on "the kingdom at work inside us now & glorifying Christ" (which I believe in by the way - but as your reason why you can't accept futurism or Restorationism), then why can't you humble yourself, man up & be honest, & repent? That seems pretty simple & straightforward to me. Really, I knew very little about eschatology, but day 2 of being "a new creation", I understaood that & if I did/did something wrong to someone (or a whole group of people), I went and humbled myself, apologized & asked for their forgiveness. Basic New Life Christian Behavior 101. I am not sure I can be any clearer, so I don't think it can possibly be me after this point. I really don't.
God Bless,
Jeff

And I'm certainly not "clearly goading you". That's the "play the victim card" friend. If you stick to those guns, that's your choice, but don't keep talking about me & telling me I'm twisting your words when all I have done is quote them. Verbatim.

Brothers,

Please re-read the first post and others you would realize that your continual arguing, debating, and disputing is bringing shame to the name of the Lord and being a bad example to other saints.

Please re-read what has been posted and then you both using this thread to continue this behaviour, this is really unacceptable. I know that we all err at times but we cannot let this continue. It really does not matter the details of the end-times but are we living in preparation for them? Are we obeying and abiding in Jesus now? Are we sharing with a lost world?

As a moderator on SermonIndex, I am asking you to stop this repetitive behaviour of arguing and debating against each other, it is fruitfulness and ungodly.

James 3:14-16New International Version (NIV)

14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such "wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

Please consider the next verses, may these fruits be in our words always dear brothers:

James 3:17-18New International Version (NIV)

17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.

Greg

Part of this is YOUR responsibility to discern correctly
the agenda, heresy and false doctrine this individual
continually introduces to this place.
Do you think that keeping quite and letting satan having his way here is promoting revival, godliness, fellowship and pure worship to God?

This person gets into it with almost everybody who would dare to reject his/her heretical views. There is a method to their madness however and they seem to be able to pull the strings to promote their religion in this place . Sly and crafty, devious and deceitful, reminds me of someone we have all encountered from time to time.

Greg,
That's neither my heart, nor intent, but I will respect what you're saying.
God Bless,
Jeff

Greg, that is neither my heart or intent, either and I am sorry about how we have let this subject spiral out of control and not posted with more consideration for each other. The constant personal attacks are very grieving and not benefiting the community or lifting up the name of Jesus.

For my part, I will try to stay closer to the wealth of sermons and articles posted on SI.

Thank you for your patience, Greg.

Well said Docs.

I totally agree with the statements & gracious tone of your post.

God Bless you,
Jeff

"Also many do not understand what it is to lose peace. They might lose peace over a discussion and never even understand how Satan has deceived them to lose the Peace that Jesus purchased for them."

I have been in this boat many times to my shame. Sometimes the only way to regain peace is to:

"leave your sacrifice there at the altar. Go and be reconciled to that person. Then come and offer your sacrifice to God." (Matt 5:24)

It is one thing to recognize that we have been wrong in our behavior and to promise to never repeat the offense, but to fully regain our peace with the Lord we must humble ourselves and reconcile with others and probably repent before them and anyone else who witnessed the offense.

That takes humility, the kind that only Jesus can teach (give) us.