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Genesis 1 and 2

T
TMK

I thought I would start a discussion on something other than eschatology. I am starting this topic because I find it very interesting. It may have been discussed here before. If so I can't remember.

As a disclaimer, I am 90% convinced of the "old earth" view of creation; i.e. I don't believe the earth is only 6000 years old or so.

But I am looking for **reasonable** and I stress reasonable harmonization of the events outlined in Gen 1 and those in Gen 2.

As a starting point I believe that the first couple three verses in Ch 2 belong at the end of Ch 1.

In Gen 2:4-6 it seems it is describing a gradual process as opposed to the sudden event of day 3 described in Gen 1.

I would like to keep the discussion just on Gen 2:4-6 for now.

And I would appreciate it if no one makes any dogmatic statements about the age of the earth etc. I am not trying to convince anybody of my view. I just want to have a nice discussion about what the scriptures actually say.

Thanks!
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Genesis 2:4-6 This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.

D
dolfan

I always read Gen. 2 as simply an expansion of detail about God's creation of Adam and Eve that was summarized in chapter 1, day 6. Some look for a harmonization, but I cannot find the conflict to harmonize.

I also don't think Gen. 2 is purely chronological. By that I mean that the sequence of things mentioned is not necessarily in strict time order. For example, Moses calls the rivers flowing from Eden by name, but that in no way implies God named them or did so during the creation week --necessarily. Moses names Assyria, but Assyria did not exist until way later, as Asshur was the son of Shem.

So, references and descriptions in Genesis 2 cannot be read in strict chronology as if they all occur after chapter 1. Gen 2:4 purports to begin a description of the "generations of the heavens of the earth when they were created". I always read that as, "ok, that is what happened, now here is WHO happened" and off we go.

T
TMK

Thanks Tim.

My first question is whether you believe Adam and Eve were created on the same day per Genesis 1:27-28 or do you think only Adam was created day 6 and passage does not require that Eve was also created day 6. The answer to that question affects the ability to harmonize Gen 1 and 2, at least in my eyes.

D
dolfan

Oh, ok.

I think they were both created on day 6. The reference in 1:27 seems to be in context with the day 6 activity, and the creation would not have been finished for God to "rest" from had she been created later. That is why I see Gen 2 as expanded version of day 6 in ch. 1.

T
TMK

I agree that it appears she was created the same day.


Therefore, these are the events I see on day 6 in Gen 2, if Gen 1 & 2 can be harmonized:

-no vegetation because God had not yet caused it to rain and no man to till the ground
-a mist went up from the earth
(these 2 points must be between day 2 and 3 or all on day 3)
-God formed Adam
-God planted a garden
-God put Adam there (alone)
-God made everything grow (again this seems counter to the order described for day 3 and day 5 in Gen 1)
-Adam warned not to eat of tree of KOGE
-God notices Adam is alone
-God formed the animals and birds (again it seems in Gen 1 that animals were formed first, then man)
-God brought beasts and birds to Adam for naming
-Adam named the animals
-Adam noticed there were no women
-God put Adam to sleep and took out a rib
-God creates Eve out of the rib
-Eve presented to Adam

D
dolfan

Do you think, Todd, that everything described as having happened inside the text of Gen. 2 must have happened on day 6? I don't.

For example, 2:8 "The LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed." It may be that God planted the garden on day 3, but its significance to Adam etc. lies in that part of the events specified in Ch. 2. 2:8 doesn't read in English as if God planted the garden after He made Adam (nor does it read like He planted it necessarily before Adam, to be fair). Wish I knew Hebrew! :)

Another reason I say so is because the sprouting up of trees in 2:9 may very easily be part of 1:11-13. It is also possible, I think, that not everything in 1:11-13 happened right then. (CAVEAT TO ALL: I did not say this means old earth. K? It is possible that the initiation of growth in 1:11-13 day 3 could have quickly grown to maturity wherever God said for it to do so so that by day 6 at 2:9 ff. when Adam and Eve are created there is a garden with trees of life and knowledge in them).

By the same token, Gen. 2:19 would not be after the creation of Adam and Eve, but is simply a statement of what He had already done (compare 1:20-25) in order to set the more detailed stage in 2:20-25 for the naming and the fascinating rationale and revelation of God's nature in creating Eve.

That is how I have always understood it. I have never been curious enough about reading Gen. 1 and 2 as conflicting creation narratives to follow through on why people may not feel comfortable with them or see a tension in them. I just never saw a reason to think there was one. Do you think there is a real tension between the two chapters?

And can we all agree that it is okay if anyone does? We can have real questions.

T
TMK

I sort of see a tension because it states that Eve was created after Adam named the animals. It reads like God brought the animals to Adam to find a suitable helper, but even the animals in their perfect state didn't cut the mustard, so God made Eve.

It just seems like a lot happened on day 6 per chapter 2. Remember all the animals AND Adam and Eve were created on the same day.

Some folks go so far as to say that Ch 2 tells a different creation story.

I tend to agree with you that Ch 2 is more of a footnote to Ch 1. Just not sure how it lines up exactly. Some day we will find out.

S
sermonindex

Before the fall it was male and female Adam. Adam named female Adam Eve after the fall.

This is important but not relavent to this thread so I will leave it at that.

marcmc

J
JHerndon

I have always felt that ch2 was a more detailed account of chapter 1.. On a side note and not to drift too far from the intentions of the original post. I attend a church where a lot of people hold to the gap theory meaning there is an unknown amount of time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. Anyone here know more about this theory? The only person I've come across that teaches this is dake and I'm not a big fan. I'm curios to hear more about it genuinely. I don't want this to turn into the creation side of the millennial discussions lol just trying to understand a point of view different than mine

D
dolfan

I don't think the gap theory works, and I disagree with it. BUT....honest people who truly love Jesus and seriously believe and study the bible can certainly believe it. To that extent, visit Chuck Missler's website. If you are gonna listen to someone explain it who does a fair job of it and believes it, he does it well IMO.

J
JHerndon

Thanks! I totally agree that you can hold to this doctrine and still love and serve Jesus! :) even though I personally don't agree with it.

T
TMK

My understanding of the Gap theory is that Gen 1:2 describes a re-creation of the cosmos that was created in Gen 1:1. The phrase "was formless and void" can apparently be translated "became formless and void."

It is handy for explaining the appearance of age of the earth and things like dinosaurs (sorry- I won't believe dinosaurs were around 6000 years ago unless God tells me some day).

To me, however the gap theory isn't necessary because it just is another way of saying that the earth is really old.

I am also not sure how it solves a primary objection to Old earth creationism- namely that there couldn't have been physical death before the Fall. I don't buy that objection so it doesn't bother me.

J
jochbaptist

I would like to hear how a proponent of the Gap Theory gets past Exodus 20:11.

-\t
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Blessings.

T
TMK

They would say that in 6 days He "remade" the earth.

D
dolfan

I admit that some things about the gap theory appeal to me. Missler (who I cited to earlier) and maybe others inserts the war in heaven between God and Satan/fallen angels into this gap. He uses it to explain Satan's presence in the garden as a beguiler when Genesis otherwise omits all mention of any war or of how Satan got into the garden as a liar, etc. Anyone have an explanation on that? :)

I don't need one, but if you are given to not abiding with questions without answers in this life, the gap theory may satisfy your mind. Probably isn't TRUE, of course, but it might satisfy your mind.

J
JHerndon

I just don't see how anyone can read the scripture as is and come up with the gap theory. And i don't know if there are different versions of the gap theory out there but the one I'm referring to is taught by dake. He speaks of a pre-adamic race and the Angels ruled the earth before the garden was created and things of that nature. Maybe Im having a hard time separating how I feel about dake and what it is he is teaching? I don't know but I just don't see it. That's why I started the conversation.

J
jochbaptist

TMK.

That is very bad interpretation of scripture.

The EARTH "became" formless and void (according to them).

Now, suddenly God is also re-creating the heaven?

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the Lord made HEAVEN AND EARTH, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

How can you read "remade" into this scripture?

T
TMK

Hi johannes-

I don't say it- that is what a gap theorist would say. I don't hold to the gap theory.

Gap theorists say the Hebrew word translated "was" in Gen 1:2 can be translated "became." I am not a Hebrew scholar do whether this is actually true or not.

S
sermonindex

JHerndon,

Tell me about the Dinosaurs?

Marc mc

R
Renoncer

Hi all,

The best organization that answers these questions is Creation Ministries International (creation.com).

You can look up their scientific articles on creation.com or some of their DVDs such as "Evolution's Achilles Heels".

Blessings,
Renoncer

B
bro_willy

Target sells books that promote the gap theory. That is why several people are boycotting I think.

J
JHerndon

Marcmc, dinosaurs are just big reptiles. They grow their entire lives. If they were living as long as people, hundreds of years, I suppose they would get pretty big. The word dinosaur isn't found in scripture because the word didn't exist when translated. Dinosaurs are mentioned in scripture however.

""Look at Behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox. What strength it has in its loins, what power in the muscles of its belly! Its tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of its thighs are close-knit. Its bones are tubes of bronze, its limbs like rods of iron.”
”­”­Job”¬ ”­40:15-18”¬ ”­NIV”¬”¬
http://bible.com/111/job.40.15-18.niv


People usually say a behemoth is an elephant or hippo but neither of those have a tail like a cedar! Honestly I don't really know what about dinosaurs you want me to say lol but this is a starting point I guess

T
TMK

All I know is that t-Rex wasn't chasing men around.

If dinosaurs were contemporary with humans there would be more than a vague reference in Job. Just my opinion of course.

But leviathan sounds exactly like a fire breathing dragon so they must have existed.

J
JHerndon

TMK I totally agree! I don't think it was Jurassic park or anything. But there seems to be some indication that they co existed. What that looked like I have no idea.

S
sermonindex

JHerndon, what they looked like is no mystery, they looked like Dinasaurs. I lived in Calgary Alta years ago which is a location where they found massive amounts of Dinasaur bones and fossils, I touched the bones, saw the massive skeletons. Leviathan was a crocodile not a Dinasaur. Behemoth was an elephant not a dinosaur.

But more to my first question, what happened to them? They were not on the ark but the scriptures declare 2 of everything (male and female) went on the ark. You pump them into your gas tank all the time and the amount of fossil fuels still in the ground would indicate the earth was teaming with them. When we're they here? And what happened to the?

The answers not mapped out in the bible. I remember the first person I ever witnessed too asked me "what about Dinosaurs?" I answered " well the bible doesn't mention them so they must not have been real". He rightly laughed at me!

Marc mc

J
JHerndon

Marcmc, so an elephant has a tail like a cedar??? I'm not sure what happen. I do think it's possible they could have been on the arc. Ken Ham has loads and loads of teaching on this subject and he his much more intelligent than I am. Like I mentioned reptiles grow their entire lives. They average life of humans has obviously decreased from hundreds of years in the Old Testament to 70 ish now. It seems reasonable that animals would decrease as well which would mean they wouldn't grow as big. Again not a professional in this but it would seem to me that after the flood there would have been drastic climate change? Perhaps some species couldn't handle the change. Maybe being hunted also played a role in the extinction of some. It's not like reptiles don't exist. They are still around today they just aren't big and aren't called dinosaurs. But just to be clear again I hold to these things very loosely. If some put a gun to my head and told me to denounce young earth doctrine I'm switching to gap theory pretty quick lol. This isn't fundamental doctrine that is crucial to the faith. It's a lot of speculation with a young earth and gap theory. A lot of things that are maybe outside of scripture a little bit on both sides.

S
sermonindex

Dinosaurs being on the ark and having shortened lives does not explain the oceanic sized oil deposits and carbon dating of their bones.

These creatures clearly lived in another age. The only people on the planet who have a hard time with this is young earth believers because they can't accept that God only reveals this like many other things through science.

The Bible is not Gods Galactic Encyclopedia of everything , it's a record of the first and second Adam. It strays very little from that objective. The bible is very specific. When gauged by the timeline it covers and the scope of world events the scriptures are like a skipping stone through time because of its singular objective. Jesus.

Marc mc

J
JHerndon

Carbon dating isn't the most reliable measurement of time. But I will agree that some things only God knows and there is no way to know what happens outside of what is revealed in scripture. Like I mentioned earlier theses things mean nothing to me. I just find them interesting. They hold no spiritual value. Much love brother

S
sermonindex

JHerndon,

But it does have something to do with you and what you believe.

If Dinosaurs lived in another age and there was the numbers of them that we know produced the oil reserves we have, consider the foliage necessary to feed those numbers. Then what killed them? Was death present in their age? What caused that death? God did not destroy them, but He also did not stop their demise! I would say the answers to these questions have an impact on our beliefs.

Marc mc

T
twayneb

I sort of see a tension because it states that Eve was created after Adam named the animals. It reads like God brought the animals to Adam to find a suitable helper, but even the animals in their perfect state didn't cut the mustard, so God made Eve.

It just seems like a lot happened on day 6 per chapter 2. Remember all the animals AND Adam and Eve were created on the same day.

Some folks go so far as to say that Ch 2 tells a different creation story.

I tend to agree with you that Ch 2 is more of a footnote to Ch 1. Just not sure how it lines up exactly. Some day we will find out.

This "tension" led one group I knew of to have a strange blend of theories that claimed a created race and a formed race of men. I do not believe that. Remember, God created the animals "after their kind". Therefore, there was only one kind of dog, one kind of cat, one kind of cow, etc. There were not different species of the same kind of animal. Speciation occurred afterwards, and speciation can be pretty rapid. Adam only named the beast of the field and the fowl of the air. Reptiles, fish, and insects need not be considered. So the job is not quite so daunting as we might think. I am not sure how may this is, but on the taxonomical family level (roughly equivalent to kinds) my reading seems to indicate that there are certainly less than 1000 different families that fit the Biblical account, perhaps less than 500.

God did create male and female...male first, and then from male the female. So I don't see any contradiction there.

It is certainly possible that the garden was created with the rest of the plant life, not on day 6. There is nothing that clearly prohibits this in the language.

T
TMK

A couple of questions:

1) when were angels created? Is there biblical support for the idea they were created prior to Gen 1?

2) for those who believe in a young earth (10,000 years or less) what proof would you accept for an old (billions of years) earth?

J
JHerndon

I'm not sure if there is any biblical proof angels existed before. And I do hold to a young earth but I'm not anti old earth. Just not sure about the gap theory. If you read the bible you get no indication the earth is millions of years old. But if someone tells you the earth is millions of years old the only place to insert that is at the beginning. And that's a stretch in my opinion. I am not as learned in this as I once was. When I was serving in Ireland the major issue with college age evangelism was evolution so they were really big on creation and had speakers come in. I mention Ken Ham earlier who has some great points. Not that I agree with everything he says. I think I remember some about desertification. That is the earth was millions of years old deserts would be much bigger. I remember this vaguely so I could be mistaken in that. In my opinion an old earth just doesn't make sense. And I know people say what about carbon dating but again that is proven in accurate. What about animal bones and trees that are hundreds of thousands of years old? Well when God made Adam and Eve they weren't babies so it would make sense if he did the same with the rest of creation

S
sermonindex

JHerdon,

The animals would still have had to die! God did not make a bunch of bones.

Gap does not agree with evolution. These are different positions.

Job 38:6-7 shows angels watching God create and praising Him while He did it.

Satan is clearly fallen in the garden.

2Peter 2:4 shows angels being cast into hell

Jesus says in Matthew 25:41 that hell was prepared for the devil and his demons. But in Genesis everything created was declared good, so hell was clearly created at a different time.

And why would Lucifer be created perfect and Man in the image of God only be called Good. We know that there is the good, acceptable and perfect will of God. ( Romans 12 )You would think God got this backwards with man and Lucifer.

Isaiah 14 Show Lucifer being cast to Hell, the sides of the pit showing these places predate Adams creation. Otherwise he would have had to create them during the Adamic 6 days and called them good at that time.

Ezekiel 28 God says he will bring him to ashes upon the earth. Strange thing to say if it's after the earth has been declared good. Perfectly normal thing to say if it's referring to an earth that He would re-new later in six days.

I could go on for days but I think these are a few to chew on.

Please forgive that I did not copy out the entire versus but simply paraphrased, on this device it's a hassle but the versus are there for your study.

The answer to the few questions here and the hundreds more are keys into very deep things. And it does have a profound effect on us. If you really want to understand anything you have to view the beginning correctly.
Marc mc

T
TMK

Yeah josh I don't buy the gap theory- I just think the universe is very old.

People bring up radio metric dating and how inaccurate it is.

It may not be perfectly accurate but can it be millions of years off?

Plus, Christians are happy to defer to carbon dating if it suits them, such as dating an archaeological find to the correct point in scripture.

My point about what evidence would be accepted for an old earth is because every piece of evidence out there, which is overwhelming (whether it's radio isotope dating, astronomical measurements- which I think are overwhelming) the YE creationists like Ken Ham always discount the evidence. So I am not sure what evidence would convince him. All he would have to say is that he doesn't accept the evidence.

All that being said, I DO NOT believe in macroevolution. An ancient earth does not solve that problem. There still isn't enough time.

S
sermonindex

The important question is not HOW much older than 6 thousand years the earth is. The question is was it made ( original creation ) 6 thousand years ago or was it re- newed ( resurrected ) 6 thousand years ago.

marcmc

T
TMK

Even if the argument is that the earth was "recreated" 6000 years ago it still looks older than that to me.

And I am not sure if gap theory applies just to the earth or to the entire universe.

S
sermonindex

Renewed, reclaimed, resurrected, are all good words for what God did. The planet and Cosmo belong to God, He has had stewards whom He gave dominion but to them He never gave ownership. Among other things this is why the deeds of the body are accountable to Him, because Adams body came from the ground and God owns the ground ( dirt ).

The planet is still going to be renewed one more time and at that point it will be perfect. You must understand that when the earth was renewed for His redemption plan it was simply made good, this was all that was needed for the Adamic epoch. The scares from its prior age remained, mountain ranges, faults, continental shift, scares from ice ages and millions of buried dinosaurs.

Evolutionists have placed the prior age in the millions because that's what they need for their theory. I don't say it had to be that long, it could have been a few thousand and then a castastrophic event occurred ( I believe it was Lucifers rebellion ) which released the effect of sin in the earth resulting in the death of all life here. because no matter how you slice it you have to account for the death of prehistoric life and God causing it or not protecting it is simply rediculous He is light and in Him their is no darkness!

Marc mc

T
TMK

Why would Satans fall affect the earth- or are you saying it affected the whole universe.

S
sermonindex

Why would God have cast him down to the earth? Jesus said he saw Satan fall like lightning. To where? When God ask him where he had been in Job what did Satan say? He said he was on the earth walking to and fro, and notice the arrogance he said it with.

The stewardship of Lucifer was in preparation for man and this earth is central to that, he rebelled against his position when he was made aware that the angelic realm was really a servants position and instead of him being the top of all he was really the top servant and was cast down to the earth. When he was he brought sin and death with him and this cosmos was ruined either instantly or over a period of time wiping out all life and the order it had been operating in just as Adams rebellion would years later.

God came and renewed order to the chaos in six days explaining why Satan and the fallen angels have been here since day one.

Marc mc

T
TMK

I'll take your word for it that that is what gap theory holds.

However I must say that the scriptural support for the rest of your statement is thin or non-existent. But that may be the topic for another discussion.

T
twayneb

I do not think the question is what evidence would a person need to accept to believe the earth is very old (i.e. millions of years or more). I think the question is, what does the Bible say about the age of the earth? Science is man's attempt to quantify the universe in which he lives. Man is fallen. As a result, man's science is inherently unreliable and faulty. This is why science always evolves. The problem is, we just do not know yet what it is that we do not know, and we do not know what impact what we do not know might have on our understanding of what is really true.

But, the word of God is inerrant and unchangeable. Therefore, the really important question is what the word says. Since we have a chronological record of events beginning with Adam, the only substantive debate would be, in my opinion, what happened before Adam was created. For that we have some clues outside of Genesis and the first chapter of Genesis itself. I have studied the ruin / reconstruction theory, and it does not, in my opinion, hold much water. It necessitates sin before the fall of Lucifer in the garden and, in reality, before Adam and Eve. Yet scripture teaches pretty clearly that Adam and Eve were the first sin after the fall of Satan. I think this is irreconcilable and reason to reject that theory. I think those who claim that the text says to "refill" are really stretching language.

Closely related is the gap theory. But I think the reality of that theory is that it is man's attempt to introduce millions of years into the word, motivated by an elevation of modern scientific theory over scriptural veracity.

T
TMK

Travis-

Is that a long way of saying there is no evidence you would accept? 🙂

S
sermonindex

TMK where does the bible say the earth is round?

marc mc

T
TMK

Some would say Is 40:21 but I don't really agree.

Not sure what you are driving at. The bible doesn't discuss nuclear fission either.

S
sermonindex

Did Jesus know the earth was round?

I'm getting at the ability to discern things from the scriptures that are not immediately obvious. God doesn't cast His pearls either.

So did Jesus know and tell us that the earth is round?

marc mc

T
twayneb

Is that a long way of saying there is no evidence you would accept?

Not at all brother. I am just saying that a plain reading of scripture seems to point to a very young earth. So, if modern science seems to indicate otherwise, I assume that modern science either has an agenda it wishes to push, or modern science is flawed as it is the construct of flawed human beings. I think it is a combination of both to be honest.

I think the old age Biblical interpretations are forced. They do not come easily out of scripture, but rely on interpretations that are hard to defend and have lots of scriptural problems. Yet a plain reading of scripture, holding to a week long creation and a 6000 year or so history of earth is easily derived from scripture without introducing scriptural problems and seems only to conflict with what modern science would tell us. So...I will take the word of God at face value and say that I disagree with modern science in this area.

If a christian believes in an old earth interpretation, I can respect that. I just don't agree with it.

S
sermonindex

twayneb,

All you have brought us back to is the Dinosaurs, and why God let them die?

The plain reading you refer too is simply a single version.

If I go to the store and buy milk and then go again and buy pop and you see me on the return second trip and ask me what I was doing and I say buying pop, you will wonder when you also see milk in the fridge.

The Bible account is only and account of the renewed earth. The way we know this is because there are proofs of a prior life form that predates Adam. Dinosaurs!!

marc mc

T
TMK

Travis- just giving you a hard time. I will not say it is impossible that the universe is around 6 thousand years old; however i think that God would have had to create an appearance of age along with it and I have major problems with this idea.

Marc- Jesus didn't come right out and tell us the earth is a sphere. He hinted at it, but those verses don't require a conclusion that he was teaching planetology. However, I have little doubt that he knew the earth was a sphere and that the sun did not orbit the earth, since He created both.

S
sermonindex

He did say it. plain as day and that is my point. The letter kills but the Spirit gives life, the person who wrote the scriptures lives in us and only He can reveal it to us.

marc mc

D
dolfan

TMK, interesting to me that if God made the universe so that, when we measure its age we measure it as older than it is, that you have problems with the idea.

I don't know if He did, but I'm curious about that idea. I've heard others say it. If He made Adam and Eve as full blown adults, why not an instant but very mature universe?

T
TMK

Tim- Adam and Eve were created with adult bodies- agreed. But were they created with indications of decay - ie slightly worn teeth, calluses etc. now I know the answer is no because they were created perfect but maybe you catch my drift.

I don't think God did things in a deceptive manner, like putting nebulas a million light years away that weren't really caused by exploding stars, or creating rocks with radioisotope decay well under way or the moon with craters that were not caused by meteors.

I don't think it is in his character to be deceptive. That's why I have a big problem with the "appearance of age" idea.

D
dolfan

Why is that deceptive?

S
sermonindex

TMK,

You said "they were created perfect".

Perfect? really? Why would a God who created diamonds, emeralds, sapphires and gold make a perfect being out of the dust of the ground?

Lucifer was created perfect. Man and all of the six days creation work were simply declared good.

Of course the reason is profound.

marc mc

T
TMK

Tim wrote: "Why is that deceptive?"

I am not sure if you are joshing me or not!

But I can try to explain although I might fail miserably.

Let's take the nebula example. Nebulas are formed when stars explode. We know this, and we have actually observed stars going supernova and nebula formation.

Some of these nebula are many, many many more than 6000 light years away. Of course a light year is the distance light travels in a year. So if we see a nebula that is 100,000 light years away, it would logically mean that the nebula was formed 100,000 years ago for the light to be reaching us now.

But if the universe is only 6000 years old, that means God placed a nebula in the sky that was never actually caused by an exploding star. He just put star remnants up there.

Now, this is only a problem if you believe that God knew that one day we'd figure things out. We know about astronomy; we know the life cycle of stars. We know the processes that turn stars into white dwarves, neutron stars, go supernova, etc. And we know that these processes take far longer than 6000 years. And we know of thousands of stars in different stages of development and decay because we observe them. So why would God do things in the skies to deceive us? Surely not because He thinks its funny how silly us humans are.

If you believe that God did not know that someday man would advance to a point of being scientific, then I suppose the "appearance of age" argument is not as significant. But I really don't think man's development took God by surprise.

The moon is an easier example-- why would God create a moon filled with craters? Did He not know that we would learn that craters are not natural formations but rather caused by meteor impacts? I can't see God creating a crater-filled moon, and then snickering because us silly humans think they were caused by meteors.

That big crater out in Arizona-- isn't it reasonable to deduce that it was caused by a meteor? How can we be sure that God did not create the earth with that crater already there? Because if He did, that would be deceptive and God does not deceive.

T
TMK

Marc wrote:
"You said "they were created perfect".

Perfect? really? Why would a God who created diamonds, emeralds, sapphires and gold make a perfect being out of the dust of the ground?

Lucifer was created perfect. Man and all of the six days creation work were simply declared good.

Of course the reason is profound."
__________________________________________

You will have to provide me with scripture to prove that Lucifer was created perfect and you will have to provide scripture to prove that Lucifer is Satan- and please don't appeal to those passages in Ezekiel and Isaiah. Neither passage says any such thing.

Rather than being cryptic, why not just come out and say what you mean?

When I said they were created "perfect" my intention was to point out that they were not created with signs of deterioration like calluses and worn down teeth.

S
sermonindex

TMK, it's all about hunger.

I used the question of Jesus saying the earth is round the way the Lord showed me years ago, it's a hunger test.

You did not even ask me for the verse where He says it. He showed me the unteachable will never ask.

Its your thread, i rummaged around a bit for fun but be well.

marcmc

T
TMK

Marc- that's a tad ridiculous. Why are trying to "hide" your knowledge? That's sort of a gnostic-y thing to do. In the future I'll remember to beg (show hunger) for you to share your knowledge with us.

There is a verse where Jesus suggests that it is night and day simultaneously on the earth- but whether he was actually communicating that as a proof of earths spherity is up to question.

D
dolfan

Todd, I truly meant the question. First, let me say I think that everyone who looks to scientific evidence for a very old universe is on solid logical grounds based what we generally believe we know. My concern is that we actually do not know what we believe we know. I think about things like time dilation for example. The constancy of time.

For example, if I am a beam of light, if I measured how long it took me to get from one side of the Milky Way galaxy to the other side, I would say instantly. Time stops at the speed of light, or so physicists would have us believe. However, if I have a catchers mitt on one side of the milky way and you are on the other side throwing a beam of light toward me, it will take about 6 trillion years for me to get it. The point being that time itself is different depending on the perspective from which it is measured.

In my mind, when I read God's statement of "let there be light," I assume of course that He knew the rules that He created about the nature of light and time. From the perspective of the light itself, when God said to let it be, it could actually be at every point in the universe and be so instantly without having any time measurement attached to it from the perspective of the light itself.

We measure time from a very particular bias that may exist nowhere else. I am reluctant to dive into age of the universe questions because there is so much that we don't truly know. Another thought: God is light. He is more than just metaphoric light. He will be the actual light in the new heavens and new earth. If time stops at the speed of light, and if God is in an actual way -- light -- in His creation, then there is no timeliness to His acts from His perspective. He has not acted with trickery or anything like it. Indeed, for us to second guess His motive in making things look to us older than they really are from the perspective of the timelessness of light, we cannot say "why have You made things thus", can we?

It seems to me totally irrelevant to anything that matters how old the universe is.

There are things that surpass our simpleton abilities to know.

F
followthelamb

Just started reading through this thread more...I apologize for going slightly off topic for a brief moment, but regarding the creation account in Genesis:

isn't it amazing that, although science teaches that the sun was formed before the planets in our solar system, God tells us in His Word that He actually created the earth first and did not even create the sun until the 4th day...Great is our God and greatly to be praised!

T
TMK

Quote: There are things that surpass our simpleton abilities to know

Surely there are- I am just not sure if the age of the universe is one of them. I mean- look at how much we DO know.

Edit: I mean, we can spilt the atom, discover subatomic particles, send men to the moon, FaceTime etc but we can't figure out for sure if something is a million years old or not? That does not make sense to me.

D
dolfan

Todd, I get your point and it is well taken. There is a presupposition in it, though, that goes to my point about "surpassing our simpleton abilities to know". It presupposes that our measurement of "a million years old" is the only measurement that matters.

As an aside: If we weren't talking about the character of God in asking whether He may have created a universe that may appear older than it actually is, it wouldn't matter about any other measurement than our own, right? I mean, we live on Earth, we measure with tools that we have, based on verifiable things that we can depend on as standards of measurement. (For example, a second of time is so many gazillion oscillations of a cesium atom, that atom acts dependably the same here, and the measurement is observable, verifiable, repeatable, and it so happens to be smack dab on what we already knew as a second. We can depend on that, and we rightfully do.) Since we measure with pretty good tools, it is okay that we use those measurements to say, "Here's how old a fossil is, here's how old a star is, etc." There's nothing wrong with us making those measurements and saying, "Well, here's what the ruler, scale, clock, etc. shows." It is responsible.

But, when we get into the question of **why** that measurement is right or not and **why** it matters when we inquire about the nature, character (or existence, if someone were an atheist) and being of God we have to bring another question into it --- do we have a grasp on what are the only measurements that matter? Or, as I said in the other post, is there another measurement to know other than what we believe we know? Because, we run the risk of having our limited tools in our little hands and saying, "Okay, if God's activity is not measurable in a way that makes sense by these rulers, scales, clocks, etc. that we understand, then He acts with some motive or intent that we might impugn." That is why I even make the point about "things that surpass our simpleton abilities to know".

So, I look around and say, "Do we know what we believe we know?" And, sure enough, there is a well studied but not well understood something-out-there that mainly theoretical physics is addressing. That is the time dilation stuff I mentioned yesterday. I don't know if it answers anything or not. But, it might very well be consistent with God making a universe that --- by our measurements made from our frame of reference --- is gazillions of years old but that --- from His perspective and what we know about the speed of light and what the Scriptures reveal about Who He Is --- the universe is not old at all. And, this is not even directly an issue about the eternity of God and His being outside of time; this is about two different frames of reference where time is actually different because time is not uniform and it can be drastically different in different frames of reference.

It may be perfectly consistent and certainly not antibiblical at all to say "the universe is 5 billion years old" and to say "the universe is so new and young that you could measure it in the thousands of years as opposed to billions". I know that sounds crazy --- and maybe it is --- but from what I read, that's my understanding of it. Things get really crazy to our perception when we talk about these time-related things and theories. It is easy to arrive at points of knowledge that seem to be contradictory but are not. I do think it is highly possible that this is one of those things, and that in no way is God's nature and character called into question when we say the Earth and the universe itself is "young", and that in no way makes anyone a liberal evolutionist anti-Christ when he says the universe itself is "old".

T
TMK

I understand the gist of your time dilation point. A guy named Russell Humphries says something similar but I think his theory has been discredited.

But we also have to consider the physicality of things and processes.

For example, we know there are real things like white dwarfs and pulsars and neutron stars and black holes, all of which are various possible stages of a dying star. We know by observation that these processes take far far longer than 6000 years. We know that in several billion years our own sun will not be the same. It will start changing into one of the things noted above, or it might just go nova.

So we must ask whether those black holes and neutron stars etc that we see out there were once regular stars. If so we must acknowledge that the original stars were around more than 6000 years ago because stars take longer than that to become those things.

If we conclude they were never stars to begin with then we are saying that God created burnt out stars.

That would be analogous to him creating petrified dead trees when he created the live ones, or a crater filled moon that was never struck by a meteor. Why would He do such a thing?

EDIT: If you learned that God created caves with cave paintings already there- would that bother you?

D
dolfan

If I learned that God created caves with paintings already in them, it would not bother me in the least. There are many many things that I don't know the reason why God did them. In fact, what we know God did design is far more sophisticated than any cave drawing. I suppose in some way someone could say that God has actually deceived by designing and creating a universe that has the appearance that it came out of nowhere. But no one says that and rightly so.

T
TMK

Hey Tim-

I am glad it wouldn't bother you. My mom and wife would agree.

But bothering is not the issue. The issue is whether such a thing is deceptive and therefore contrary to God's character. There is no shadow of deceptiveness in Him.

And just saying that because God did it, it is not deceptive isn't a great argument, in my opinion.

Of course, my answer is that God didn't create with an appearance of age, or better stated, he didn't create brand new things with evidence they have been through an aging process.

I am not taking about creating grown trees or grown people or full sized mountains. The question is whether he created full sized mountains with signs of erosion.

D
dolfan

May I ask this: Mountains themselves are the product of ages of tectonic activity. Like erosion. If God creates a mountain it is already an appearance of age so to speak. Unless a volcano produces a mountain quickly --- and they have --- are there "young mountains"? If a mountain that does not arise from a volcano appears, is that materially different from a mountain that has erosion?

T
TMK

That's a good question. We know the Rockies and the Himalayas are "young" mountains and the Appalachians are "old". The former are pointy; the latter are rounded and worn.

So it may be that when God created the earth there were no mountains although there were obviously mountains by the time of the flood.

Taking your point further, even dirt or sand is created by a process.

Which leads to my belief(that obviously may be wrong) that God got things started with the Big Bang and let things proceed from there.

T
twayneb

All you have brought us back to is the Dinosaurs, and why God let them die?

The plain reading you refer too is simply a single version.

If I go to the store and buy milk and then go again and buy pop and you see me on the return second trip and ask me what I was doing and I say buying pop, you will wonder when you also see milk in the fridge.

The Bible account is only and account of the renewed earth. The way we know this is because there are proofs of a prior life form that predates Adam. Dinosaurs!!

Marc: I am not sure what proof we have that dinosaurs predated man. We have the opinion of secular science, but their interpretation of evidence is determined by their world view, so they would not, could not, come to any other conclusion. We have a lot of evidence that the animals that we commonly call dinosaurs were contemporary with man. The animals we call dinosaurs were simply animals that have gone extinct since the flood. Many animals have done this. God said that animals would reproduce after their kind. He did not guarantee that no species or even kind of animal would go extinct. God made man the steward over creation. He told man to have dominion over the animals. If anything, we would then have to blame man and ask why man allowed these animals to go extinct.

T
TMK

We apparently have a decent history of early man on the earth in Genesis. But there are no indications of any fighting off of TRex, or 70 ft brachiosauruses raiding vegetable gardens.

I just can't imagine how very early man could have competed with dinosaurs. Unless one argues that dinosaurs did not live where the patriarchs lived- but I don't believe that was the case.

I do believe it is possible that early man came across dinosaur fossils which gave rise to legends of dragons etc.

But the idea of Adam and his offspring living alongside these "terrible lizards" really stretches credulity.

S
sermonindex

tayneb,

The challenge you have is OIL.

Going extinct would not explain the time frame Chevron, BP and Shell will tell you it took for them to become oil.

I'm not saying that some cataclysmic event did not take place. Meaning that an event could have taken place that caused all life to die in a very short period of time and this event could have played a role in shortening the time frame for the Dino's to become oil. But now you have to explain death entering the creation and why God allowed it.

I'm out of this thread but saw you addressed me specifically and felt it courteous to reply. Be well.


marcmc

T
twayneb

marc: Actually, oil is produced rather quickly given the right conditions of temperature and pressure. So is coal. The 4000 years since all of that plant matter was buried in the flood gives ample time. If we use oil as our example of long ages, we would have to put the ages between the flood and now, for which we have a pretty solid Biblical chronology of only 4000 or so years. That, in my opinion, creates an even larger problem with Biblical interpretation than putting the ages before Adam...unless of course you are a ruin-reconstructionist who believes in a pre-Adamite flood.

TMK: Written history is replete with tales of dragons, creatures we would, since the late 1800's, call dinosaurs. Artwork abounds by cultures who saw these creatures. For one example, ancient Peruvian art even depicts men riding on the backs of creatures that are so accurately depicted that they are exact matches of the dinosaur types we have in museums today. Job records a land creature and an aquatic creature (Behemoth and Leviathan) that are undoubtedly what we would call dinosaurs from their descriptions. And Job also records the great ice sheets in the post flood ice age, so I am confident that Job was written post-deluge. If all land animals were created on day 6, and if all kinds of land animals were on the ark, then logically what we call dinosaurs had to be represented on the ark as well.

T
TMK

http://paleo.cc/ce/dino-art.htm

T
twayneb

Something to think about mountain formation and erosion as well. The continents during the flood separated very quickly, from one land mass to several continents. This resulted in ranges of mountains being pushed up. If the range was pushed up under the water, it would have suffered rapid erosion as the waters receded. This would lead to more rounded mountains that appeared older. Yet if a range was pushed up above the waters and, as in the case of the Himalayas, continued to be pushed up even until today, they would not have suffered the rapid erosion that would have "aged" them. This too can be explained easily by the events of the flood.

T
TMK

"Multiple independent evidences confirm an ancient earth, including 40 different methods of radiometric dating and numerous non-radiometric measurements: Ice core samples from Antarctica and Greenland provide an unbroken record of annual ice layers spanning the past 800,000 years. Annual tree ring records provide a continuous record of the past 15,000 years. Coral reefs record long ages of growth (Eniwetok Reef 140,000 years, and the Grand Bahama Reef 790,000 years). Ancient annual lake varve sediments provide evidence of earth’s history dating back 15 to 20 million years."

I didn't know that about the tree rings and ice cores- pretty cool.

S
sermonindex

Twayneb,

I read the flood theories years ago and do think they account for much of what we see. I can't say I have ever heard of the new oil theory though. You still have God creating creatures that were never intended to die and in fact would have continued to grow for thousands of years being created on a planet that man was on. The symmetry of the idea is out of step with what we see in God, not to mention the planet would have never been able to support them with food.

I will bow out here again because sadly the evolution theorists have forced the churches hand in the field too much. And any idea outside the new earth 6000 metric is perceived as given credence or ground to evolution. By most believers.

What I will say is I believe in a renewed earth and have debated many intellectuals about the gospel and few if any have heard of the "gap" theory and the second they do the debate is over. They just scratch their heads and go "oh, so your not one of those idiots that thinks this planet is only 6000 years old? You can then talk to them about more important subjects like Jesus.

I was able to preach the Gospel on an audio forum in a thread that lasted for a month on the Christian faith because of that one point alone. Any religious content on a post gets you banned on that forum. The forum owner asked me privately to continue to share and told me about his own search for God. And several of the hardest unbelievers told me if I thought the earth was only 6000 years old they would have never listened to another word. My point is right or wrong we won't fully know til we are in heaven, but this side it's a subject that Christians have slammed the door shut because right or wrong the unbeleivers won't listen to a word from you if you think Dino's were wiped out in the flood or went extinct after it. They just laugh.

Ever notice that no one as far as we know asked Jesus about things like that even after they knew He was God the Son? Only two reasons I can tell. Either they already knew, or didn't care. He did tell everyone the earth was round but it took everyone awhile to catch up with that one.
Be well again.

Marc mc

T
twayneb

During world war 2, a squadron of p-38 lightnings was forced to land on the ice of greenland during bad weather, and the airplanes were abandoned. In the 80's, a team decided to try to find the planes, thinking they would be salvageable for restoration, but there was no sign of the planes. Finally, the planes were located, nearly 250 feet below the surface. These planes were under what evolutionists and uniformitarians would call many hundreds of years of ice core layers. Yet they landed less than 50 years before salvage. The correlation of the depth of the planes with the known ice layers demands a new interpretation of ice core data. If it is interpreted using the planes as a benchmark, the depth and layers of greenland ice are less than 4000 years, which matches Biblical chronology.

The point is that we interpret data based on assumptions. But our assumptions are usually faulty to one degree or another. We are flawed human being. Yet God is not, and the Bible is to be trusted no matter what modern science seems to say. Science is our attempt to quantify our earth. The Bible is the absolute history of our earth. We don't know it all. God does.

Look up the lost squadron for more info.

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