To the Saints here on SI,
And Julius especially, I just want to apologize for some of the way I dealt with one of the other posts & the situation. I certainly didn't mean to berate or belittle, my heart was actually far different than that, but I realize it can come across differently. And at some point, I should have just let it die, but a specific nerve was hit & all in line with other things the Lord had made clear to me, but I should not have continued to go on. It didn't result in anything positive anyways after awhile what was said was said, & I should have left it be & moved on & I didn't. Anyways, my heart is for the Body of Christ, the Word of God, the person of Jesus, & the Spirit's work to be embraced & heralded, but I let something I think was wrong get me out of sorts & for that I do honestly want to humble myself & apologize. Anyways, may God richly bless you all.
In Him,
Jeff
Apology
To the Saints here on SI,
And Julius especially, I just want to apologize for some of the way I dealt with one of the other posts & the situation. I certainly didn't mean to berate or belittle, my heart was actually far different than that, but I realize it can come across differently. And at some point, I should have just let it die, but a specific nerve was hit & all in line with other things the Lord had made clear to me, but I should not have continued to go on. It didn't result in anything positive anyways after awhile what was said was said, & I should have left it be & moved on & I didn't. Anyways, my heart is for the Body of Christ, the Word of God, the person of Jesus, & the Spirit's work to be embraced & heralded, but I let something I think was wrong get me out of sorts & for that I do honestly want to humble myself & apologize. Anyways, may God richly bless you all.
In Him,
Jeff
Thank you, Jeff. I pray the Lord blesses you and your family and provides for all your needs. I pray He also encourages you and strengthens you in your inner man and that He will give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him.
In Christ,
J
Thank you brother for your post, may the Lord continue to bless you and fill you with peace.
When this was first wrote,
I read it and read it again. I was going to comment at the time with a word of encouragement,
but as I read what was written, it appeared to me that there was no apology beyond the title.
Jeff, your attacks on Julius since this post, reaffirm that My original reading of this content, was correct.
Thank you for your words PP - anytime you want to encourage me (which you didn't do) or accuse me (which you did do), feel free I guess. I did apologize. Whether you accepted/believed it or not. For "How"I went about it in frustration. And I was not intending to attack Julius. Asking someone a question is not an attack, even if it gets bent & wrongly analogized & turned back around. I'm not going to go into why I asked the question. It really doesn't matter at this point. God is the judge ultimately who sees all & knows the intents & motives of the heart. We can often be wrong in our presumptions & perceptions, particularly in this limited 2-dimensional form of written communication. But I respect your "coming to your friends side" even if in the process you dig up an old thread just to accuse me of being a liar & such. Either way, I hold nothing against you friend.
God Bless,
Jeff
And it is interesting you wouldn't be asking Julius where His public apology was for calling Pre-Mils those of a False Gospel, False Christ, FALSE SALVATION, just accusing me of lieing when I apologized for HOW I went about trying to push him for an apology, but I digress
RE: ///And it is interesting you wouldn't be asking Julius where His public apology was for calling Pre-Mils those of a False Gospel, False Christ, FALSE SALVATION,///
I rebuked him directly and publicly I wrote : ///I have to say that I find the title of this thread a bit provocative and disturbing...///
His response was : ///Yeah, I would like to change the title, too. I have not been comfortable with it. In reflection, I admit it is too provocative. Any ideas?///
I also rebuked him with : ///"...but to insinuate that all those whom intelectually believe this, are following a false Christ, I feel is a bit overboard.
Lets remember "we see through a glass, darkly"///
His response was : "........This explains what I mean by false gospel and false Christ. ((((I'm not saying the brothers participating in this thread believe in a false Christ)))). ((((Sorry, if I communicated that.)))) Though, they may unwittingly be preaching and teaching things that Christ already rejected when He came the first time.
That was on 2016/4/23 your apology was on 2016/4/25 two days after he made the statement!
You continue to relentlessly keep bringing up the above subject and throwing it in everytime you get a chance.
On 2012/5/13 I wrote : ///I would encourage every single individual whom has attacked Julius to consider there own short comings on these forums, Think about it, have many of those whom attacked Julius not been guilty of the same and in some instances worse.///
The hypocritical blindness of those whom where attacking Julius was unreal in that thread.
You responded : ///........ I also even admitted & apologized for at times going too far and/or saying too much. I did that publicly too from the heart.
However, before we set up a martyrs grave here for Julius, I do think it should also be said that I, before having done any of these things, came to Julius' side, was kind, soft, gentle, giving the benefit of the doubt To him, etc. & why did I receive from Julius? Sarcasm, attacks, snarky comments, being grouped up on by him & the 3-4 here who have pushed his narrative, etc. Julius was nasty towards me early on and I was nothing but kind & gracious to him. Don't just remember the most recent threads & ignore the ones from a couple/few weeks ago and how we got to the place where we are now on some of these discussions. And then he actually accused, as well as everyone else on the forum & in the majority of church history who believes in Premillinealism, of having received a "False Gospel, False Christ, FALSE SALVATION" (His words/title - before changing it - not mine). But all I asked for was likewise an apology to all those he accused of not having "TRUE SALVATION" (which is pulling up wheat that Jesus warned against). All I asked for repeatedly was to admit the wrong & apologize? Yes, I went on and on, because he refused to do it. Did it ever happen? No it did not.///
I'm sorry, but I'm going to be really frank with you (since you've certainly had no problem being that, or more if not outright accusatory, with me), but when I read that & you tell me that's a real apology from Julius ("I didn't intend to communicate False Christ" - when that's his EXACT words, followed by FALSE SALVATION) & he never actually said "I'm sorry to everyone out there I offended & accused of calling a false believer, over 50%+ of everyone on the site including the moderators & all the SI preachers/teachers whose recordings are featured here, but yet you go back, dig up my apology, accuse me of basically being a liar/deceptive/dishonest, etc.,it seems to me you have an axe to grind or an impartial basis of comparison to give your friend (who agrees with your views by the way) a pass, & accuse me (the only one who posted a public apology & I never called anyone false believers for disagreeing with me), it seems to me that it's actually you that has an axe to grind? That's fine though. I hold no grudge/offense against you in my heart. May God richly bless you today!
In Him,
Jeff
Dear brothers,
It is strange reading these personal replies to accusations. The strangest part about the replies is when I get to the end after reading all that was written before - then comes the "spiritual" "the Lord bless you" anyway kind of ending.
I never understood Jesus to say "bless those that curse you...after you have set them straight."
Since "bless" in the original is a compound word ( eu = well) + (logeo = speak) - the meaning is "speak well".
Setting someone "straight" on a public forum by pointing out their faults for others to read is kind of stretching it to try and spiritualize it by adding "bless you" at the end.
When I read these type of posts I see "contra" = against + "diction" = to say. Adding "bless you" to airing our grievances is a "contradiction."
Mak
Proverbs 9:7
"Whoever corrects a mocker invites only insult, and whoever rebukes the wicked will himself become stained. Don’t rebuke a mocker or he will hate you. Rebuke a wise person, and he will love you. Counsel a wise man, and he will be wiser still; teach a righteous man, and he will add to his learning".
I am reminded of this scripture after reading the SI threads of late. If a wise man is corrected he will not insult you, in fact he will thank you for the correction and thereby grow in grace and maturity.
Jeff, it is hard not to notice that you have a habit of adding or taking away from people's words by rewriting what you think they are saying (paraphrasing them) instead of quoting their words. Yes, I said that I believe your future view presents a false Gospel, and False Christ. I did not say anyone who believed it was not saved since obviously they are believing the present Gospel, but you have posted that many times. Since your view presents a different salvation and a gospel by a different Christ (in my opinion) in a future time to come, I am of the belief it is incorrect. Incorrect = false in my opinion.
What you have done is implied that since I believe a future gospel and plan of salvation is incorrect that I also believe current believers who believe this future theology will happen are also not saved. That is dishonest and you are asking me to apologize for something I did not say. I am no one's judge, but I do have liberty from the Lord to judge doctrine, and compare what people say with the Word of God.
It would be helpful if you would stop paraphrasing people's words and quote them exactly.
Edited for additional question at the end:
I never intended to misquote you friend. Here are your EXACT/QUOTED words (the original title of your thread you said in a previous post "I've been holding back waiting to post"):
"Pre-Millinealism. False Gospel. False Christ. False Salvation."
Now that's pretty plain spoken & easy to understand to me. Especially since Paul says "if anyone comes to you preaching another GOSPEL, or another JESUS...Let him be accursed (damned)."
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or misquote you. For someone who quotes the Word on here a lot, I assume you understand the theological salvific implications of statements like:
"Pre-Millinealism. False Gospel. False Christ. False Salvation."
I know I do.
So what does a true convert with a false Gospel, False Christ, & especially a false salvation look like? Scripture knows nothing of the sort.
And Julius especially, I just want to apologize for some of the way I dealt with one of the other posts & the situation. I certainly didn't mean to berate or belittle, my heart was actually far different than that, but I realize it can come across differently. And at some point, I should have just let it die, but a specific nerve was hit & all in line with other things the Lord had made clear to me, but I should not have continued to go on. It didn't result in anything positive anyways after awhile what was said was said, & I should have left it be & moved on & I didn't. Anyways, my heart is for the Body of Christ, the Word of God, the person of Jesus, & the Spirit's work to be embraced & heralded, but I let something I think was wrong get me out of sorts & for that I do honestly want to humble myself & apologize.
Brother Jeff,
I am thankful what you wrote that there is a sense of repentance in your heart not to belittle or berate saints. It is also good that you realize your interactions have been not self-controlled or restrained but at times you "reacted" when you should not have and been slower to speak:
James 1:19 New International Version (NIV)
19 My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,
Let us be clear also that we can differ on end-times views of the Scriptures but that does not mean we are false converts, or false gospel preachers, etc. It is important that we find our unity in the blood of Jesus Christ, the cross of Christ and that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God and part of the body of Christ.
At times I have found dis-unity with other brethren over doctrines and did not look to them as truly brothers who are bought by the redeemers blood. We do not hold to brethren who hold to Amillennialism as false gospel believers, though I do not believe it is a clear Biblical belief of the church over the 2000 years.
So there is no place on a discussion forum to accuse other brothers and sisters of things that really are not true. This also goes the other way for saints who have entered into these debates without love, or charity and seemed to be "bent" on proving they are right. This can all happen while our lives are full of sin and hidden faults. God does really not care if we are crystal perfect on doctrines if our life is wrong and sins are being practiced.
There is no point to win an argument, unless the Holy Spirit allows us to be doers of the Word then we will not be pleasing to the Lord. Jesus did not try and convince His disciples of an end-times theology but rather told them to:
Matthew 24:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Are we standing firm? Are we following the Lord daily as disciples has to be the question.
A little poem to make a point:
I could not help but notice, but it appears that you are bleeding
So here's a little bandaid for the wound you got from reading.
I didn't mean to hurt you, God knows my heart was true
I simply want the record straight so I wrote back to you
I normally am very nice though sometimes word can hurt
To prove it, here's a rag to use to help clean off the dirt
Sometimes in these discussions we need to set things right
But I never mean to hurt someone whenever I do fight
Brother Greg,
was your post directed at a larger audiance than just Jeff of whom it was addressed ?
by jeffmar1130 on 2016/5/16 15:34:36So what does a true convert with a false Gospel, False Christ, & especially a false salvation look like? Scripture knows nothing of the sort.
Jeff, you are preaching and teaching a gospel/salvation to come, in my opinion that has nothing to do with today's gospel. I am pretty sure I understand now why you superimpose your thoughts on what others say. You simply don't understand what they are saying. That means you are misunderstanding them. Well, I certainly don't hold that against you. Maybe, just ask for clarity in the future.
" This can all happen while our lives are full of sin and hidden faults. God does really not care if we are crystal perfect on doctrines if our life is wrong and sins are being practiced".
Amen that is very, very true. I think on forums and within church communities we must defer to the will of those who lead. If their position is different to ours we must back away and leave it alone. To come at it again and again shows we have an agenda and that in itself stirs up strife.
It takes two to tango. Jeff may have been out of line with his harsh comments but Julius you are not without guilt either. If I am in an ongoing disagreement with another party and my words keep stirring them up and things get ugly then I can help to put the fire out by saying nothing and walking away. But then in all fairness threads that turn ugly should be locked immediately.
Say what????
I just don't understand?
I quoted you verbatim & I quoted Paul in Scripture, and it seems pretty simple really.
But, whatever.
Ok, Mark. I appreciate your directness.
Jeff, my apologies for commenting, but you posted more than once that I don't answer you.
By the way, would you delete your post in my new thread about typologies of Christ in the OT? Otherwise, I will need to create a new one since your post has nothing to do with it.
Thanks!
Edit:
Oh, I see others have posted. Don't worry, I'll just create a new one.
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=56957&forum=35
I should not have put you on the spot, as soon as I posted it, I have felt shaky and continue to do so relizing my fault
Brother Greg,was your post directed at a larger audiance than just Jeff of whom it was addressed ?
Dear brother,
Yes, there definitely can be some things written that can apply to all of us, myself included. But it was more directed as a response to Jeff in this thread.
Honestly,
I think a lot of the time on forums that what gets written up as pride/contention can be just be straight forward honesty (although temperance, discretion, gentleness & humility should be ever growing graces in a believers life for certain), & lot that gets written off or billed as "humility", can really just be clever, coy, word gymnastics. I know with my kids (& I have 7, so I've seen it all) if someone does something & is genuinely apologetic & moves on, I tend to want to be hopeful for the future & let them grow in it. But when they are coy, sarcastic, sneaky, play the victim when they've really played a part in the instigation & then tried to hide it, something in me has a particular distaste for it. While I can do such too & am not perfect, I think it's the same type root Jesus called out in the Pharisees. When he called them "hypocrites", it was the Greek for "actors" (as in the theater - "playing a role"). We must always remember that God sees & knows ALL including the motives, the intent, the truthfulness in the inward parts, whether one is "a true Israelite, in whom there is no guile", etc. This is something we all should take before the Lord regularly & allow Him to shine the spotlight of His Spirit on. It's not just our words, actions, etc. that will be judged on that Day, but even most especially our real motive, intents, etc. Something we all should make sure we are open, honest, & pure in, even if we are imperfect. It's the Pharisee that prayed he was glad he wasn't like the sinner, but the sinner who was open, honest, humble, & repentant that went away justified. Just something for all of us to remember.
Jeff
And I totally appreciate & receive what you wrote Greg. Amen