Featured SI Sermon: "The Theocratic Kingdom", Art Katz

I just listend to the entire discourse by video and took some running notes on it throughout. Maybe I can get them together in some type of coherent form and share them.

First impression - Art spoke heavily against the ALLEGORICAL and METAPHORICAL hermentuic and method of interpretation that has in his opinion taken so many of the promises made to Israel and reinterpeted them to mean us. We have therefore lost sight of the mystery revolving around the inter-connection between Israel's coming restoration and the church and the second advent of Christ as He comes again to the same nation and people He ascended from.

Second impression - there are vast portions of the present church who want nothing to do with this type of message or the view expressed therein. It's anathema to them.

I believe Romans 11 is clear on what is the the plan of God to israel from the beginning.

I don't think all promises is fulfilled, it this that? Is this all?

Satan will bless us but will cut off our relationship with God.

Majority of Irael is indifferent to the faith. The best is yet to come.

/Art doesn't give many scriptures. Lot of passion, lots of emotion, but thin on scriptures. I wish he would have backed up his ideas in that article/video with the Word. Many things are right, some are not./

The scriptures Art used in this teaching were:
Deut 32:7-9
Psalm 2:1-6
Psalm 83:1-5
Isaiah 11:9b
Isaiah 2:2-4
Isaiah 45:6, 22
Isaiah 9:6-7

Having watched it all the way through, I would say in the brief hour and four minutes that Art packed the teaching with scripture.

/So, the OT is all about pictures and types and shadows of spiritual realities that are realized in the NT church yet we are to believe that even though the scriptures in the OT say that God fulfilled all of His promises to Israel concerning their land, and their blessing and their seed being as the stars of heaven and sand of the sea, that somehow, that is not completely true?/

As Art said, not in the metaphorical allegorical "it's all spiritual" way many of the promises have been interpreted to have been fulfilled

/That the kingdom of heaven now, is not about racial or geographical divides but it will be when Jesus comes back?/

Why should it chafe people and especially Gentile believers if Israel comes to a place of prominence among the nations at the Lord's return? Israel said, "We won't have this Jesus rule over us now the nations and much of the church say, "We won't have this nation rule over us." It's a matter of the heart embracing what God has chosen.

/The New Covenant and Kingdom that we are in now are projected into a future millenium? This shows an inadequate understanding of the complete fulfillment of God’s promises in Jesus Christ and to Israel in the OT./

That's not really what Art said. He said the emphasis on the kingdom NOW has been taken so far that it has in many instances basically nullified any future aspects of the Lord's return as being part of the kingdom especially in regards to how Israel will again play a prominent role after Christ returns. If I could politely suggest it, you may need to take another look at what Art really said.

/You are essentially attempting to force the continuity of Abrahamic promise/fulfillment into a halt (church age ends) and then a restarted projected future continuity but not the Church anymore. The Church age is only a parentheses and is not God's ultimate intention. It is plan B./

?????

Art didn't come close to going there nor have I. He never mentioned this.

/The "Hebrew root” teacher, Jacob Prasch says this:
‘Jacob came for a bride from his own people. He desired Rachel, but he did not get Rachel at first, but Leah … Jesus came for Israel. He wanted to marry Israel, but He did not get Israel. He ends up with the bride He did not desire at first, the Gentile church.’ (Jacob Prasch, teaching on Ruth, MORIEL website)./

The Lord didn't get Israel? What about Peter and James and John and the many thousands of Jews saved and later Paul and the many many Jews saved over the centuries? He didn't get the whole nationbut the point of the teaching was that God is not through with that nation yet. Into this initial act of salvation occuring among those of Israel the Gentiles were allowed to be included (Ephe 3:6) but that doesn;t cancel Isarel's future at the Lord's return.

/God has no plan "B"/

?????

There is no reference to this in the tape.

/So, the Church Age is put on "hold" and will be resumed in the future at the second coming of Jesus because He has to complete the physical fulfillment to Israel. Even though in the OT, there are scriptures that indicate God fulfilled all of His physical promises to Israel./

The teaching never came close to saying the church age has been put on "hold."

/The problem with this belief is that it now takes Christ's spiritual kingdom and fixates it into a physical, racial and national preoccuption. And yet, Christ came and said, my Kingdom is not of this world, and He broke down racial and national barriers making all part of His Body. Physical localities, racial background and nationalism have no place in Christ. All the types and pictures of the OT, pointed to spiritual realities. Are we now taking those spiritual realities and bringing them back into physical, racial and national realities?/

I can't speak for Art of course yet he might say that your emphasis on the kingdom of Christ being a spiritual kingdom only, minus anything earthly but only some nebulous spiritual sphere of existence, is because of the allegorical metaphorical way of interpreting many of the promises in the OT. Art said when you see the word Jerusalem it's safe to be that the Lord literally meant Jeruslaem yet as he mentioned the metaphorical method has made the word "Jerusalem" anything and everything but that.

/The Church Age is not a parentheses:
Christians are "complete in Christ” (Col. 2:10) having "everything” God intends in Him (I Cor. 3:21-23; Eph. 1:3; II Pet. 1:3)./

?????

Who said it was? Not Art

/The scriptures say that God fulfilled all of his promises to Israel regarding promised blessing to Abraham, making them as the "sand of the sea", making them into a Nation, giving them all the Land He promised and fulfilling all of His promises. But, don't take my word for it. I gave the scriptures, below. At the very bottom are some quotes regarding the difference between Dispensational Theology and Covenant Theology in regards to eschatology./

Yet Art was not a dispensational believer.

/What promises of God were fulfilled to Israel, physically?

1. He did make them "as the sand of the sea" and the "stars of heaven".

1Ki 4:20 Judah and Israel were many, as the sand which is by the sea in multitude, eating and drinking, and making merry.

Deu 1:10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.

For more scripture "witnesses" please see: II Chron. 1:9; Neh. 9:23; Heb. 11:12

2. He made them into a NATION.

Deu 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
Deu 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?

1Ch 17:21 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people, whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt?

And Jesus confirms that God fulfilled His promise of making them into a great nation, by saying it will be taken from them.
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof./

Taken from them yes but NEVER permanently.

/3. LAND

The Lord gave them land:
Jos 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.

And the Lord God gave them ALL THE LAND He swore to give them.

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel ALL THE LAND which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

God "performed His words to Israel".

Neh 9:7 Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;
Neh 9:8 And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:

Neh 9:23 Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it.

Neh 9:24 So the children went in and possessed the land, and thou subduedst before them the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, and gavest them into their hands, with their kings, and the people of the land, that they might do with them as they would./

4. God blessed Abraham

Gen 24:34 And he said, I am Abraham's servant.
Gen 24:35 And the LORD hath blessed my master greatly; and he is become great: and he hath given him flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and menservants, and maidservants, and camels, and asses.

Isa 51:2 Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.

5. ALL promises fulfilled:

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel ALL THE LAND WHICH HE SWARE to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; ALL CAME TO PASS.

1Ki 8:56 Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, ACCORDING TO ALL THAT HE PROMISED: THERE HATH NOT FAILED ONE WORD OF ALL HIS GOOD PROMISE, WHICH HE PROMISED which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

So, if the Scriptures mean anything to us, I hope it is clear that God fulfilled all of His promises to Israel. They now come into the church as Paul the apostle and many other Jewish people have come in./

After all of the scriptures you have listed above, why were the prophets hundreds of years later still speaking of Israel one day possessing the land forever? You've completely left out relevant passages from Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Zechariah, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Micah, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malchai. If all was edone in the days of Joshua and the kings etc. why hundred of years later were the prophets still bringing a future possession of the land to the forefront?

/More scriptures for you. Do they mean anything?

Promises of God to Abraham fulfilled spiritually:
”¢ progeny, descendancy, "seed” - Rom. 4:16; 9:8; Gal. 3:7,29; 4:28; Rev. 7:9
Ӣ nation, community - I Pet. 2:9; Phil. 3:20; Eph. 2:19
Ӣ land, place - Heb. 4:1,9; 11:10,13-16; 12:22; Jn. 14:2,3; Gal. 4:26; Eph. 2:6; II Pet. 3:13; Rev. 3:12; 21:1,2
Ӣ blessing - Eph. 1:3; Gal. 3:8,9,14
ALL promises fulfilled in Christ: Lk. 22:44-49; Rom. 15:8; II Cor. 1:20
JESUS is the "hope of Israel” - Acts 26:6; 28:20
Christians are: God’s people - Titus 2:14; I Pet. 2:9
Spiritual Israel - Rom. 9:6; Gal. 6:16
Spiritual Jews - Rom. 2:28,29
Recipients of promises to Abraham - Gal. 3:18; Heb. 9:15/

Not all of the promises to Abraham were spiritual promises. That's why the non-literal "they're spiritual only" interpretation of many of the physical promises has robbed them of their original meaning and content. A perfect example of what Art spoke of nullifying any future aspect or relevance for Israel unto which Christ will return.

Art never said the New Covenant and Kingdom that we are in now are projected into a future millennium. He said the emphasis on the kingdom NOW many times has turned the attention of many away from what the Bible has to say about Israel and the future at the return of the Lord. He said the kingdom would come at the Lord's return but he meant in its fullness. He never attempted to suggest that the progress of the Abrahamic covenant has come to a halt until the Lord returns nor did he mention the church and the church age as being a parenthesis or plan B.

And again, in your reference to land promises being already fulfilled, you left out the writings of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Zechariah, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Micah, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malchai. Hundreds of years after the books and people you mentioned these prophets were still prophesying of Israel being restroed to the land. If all had been fulfilled there would have been no need for them to do so yet there they were still speaking of it. Why?

Art proposed that Christ would indeed return to Israel from whence He left and that the restoration of Israel and the Lord's return are solidly and inextricably linked together and inter-connected. He spoke that if the church does not see or include in its theological bearings that the return of the Lord and the restoration of Israel are linked together and see only the Lord's return minus any relevance for Israel then the church has lost sight of the mystery of Israel and the church. Losing sight of this likely largely comes, as Art said, from a metaphorical way of reinterpreting the scriptures founded on the erroneous belief that God is once and forever through with physical Israel.

Having read many of your posts Julius I am convinced that you still have basic misunderstandings in many areas of the premill view. Plus, your criticism of Art's teaching here comes from you who believe we are presently living in the new heavens and earth. How can you get there except by a over spiritualization and metaphorical interpretation of these scriptures related to the new heavens and earth. That "spiritual" interpretation" is a classic example of what Art spoke of. Meanwhile, premill believers don't stand with Israel because oif what they are now but what they will be. Youmight want to take a closer look at Art's tape. He didn't say many things attributed to him in your post.

I apolgize to Greg but I just listened to this tape tonight and I feel like it was not represented properly. I hardily suggest no free for all on this issue. If someone has not watched the tape then I suggest to not be piling on and in because you'll be out of place doing so. I may share my notes from the teaching but that is all. I fully intend to stay civil.

Blessings.

/All I can say is I simply am astounded.

Why were the Judaizers giving Paul a difficult time for teaching about the hope of Israel? What hope was he teaching about that would bring such animosity? Paul would not align himself with Israel of the flesh regarding a physical kingdom and for this he was sorely persecuted. Yet, today we have aligned ourselves with Judaism in this belief when Jesus rejected being made king of an earthly kingdom./

Art would not align himself with Israel of the flesh either because he believed the remnant of Israel that remained after all is said and done and when the Lord returned would be redeemed Isarelites born of the Spirit so as to become the true seed of Abraham. Again, as I noted, it shows me that you still have what I believe to be a basic misunderstanding of premillennialism.

/This teaching has largely taken over Christianity, today and yet we don't see the NT writers preoccupied by it in any way, shape or form and they truly believed the Lord was coming back soon. Doesn't that make you wonder./

What makes me wonder is why a redefined and reinterpreted hermeneutic applied to a very large corpus of OT scriptures, turning them into prophecies to be interpreted metaphorically and figuratively, is seen as a proper way to analyze the writings of the prophets.

/I remain mystified, but carry on, I will not interrupt your conversation again. And thank you for allowing me to challenge your thinking./

You didn't interrupt my conversation at all. Not by any means. I am more than willing to speak about the teaching in "The Theocratic Kingdom." I just don't think you represented properly what Art said. You began by saying he used little scripture when he used scripture through the whole teaching to back his every point. Something was amiss from the start. Challenging one's thinking is fine and okay by me yet one has to properly represent the other party.

Israel is still a special people in God's purposes.

I will address some objections to this view:

"There is no more Jews or Gentiles, slave or master and man or woman in Christ."

Does it mean that there is no more distinction in roles between a slave and a master? Between man and woman? Are they now interchangeable in the New Covenant?

"God has no favoritism."

Surely God has no respecter of persons. But does God has no right to choose whom he will? We often heard of our free will that we always have a choice, how much more God? (Romans 9:11-15) Why does 'God choosing the other over the other' is some sort of offensive to us? (Except when 'you' is the chosen?) Do we really believe that we don't deserve to be saved? That He is the one who choose us and not we?

Matthew 5:5 (KJV)  Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

John 18:36 (KJV)  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Christians are not "of the world" but "in the world", so Jesus prayer to the Father, "Thy kingdom come" is kingdom coming here on earth.

Luke 11:2 (KJV)  And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Luke 22:30 (KJV)  That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Revelation 11:15 (KJV)  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Acts 1:6-7 (KJV)
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Try substituting "kingdom" with "church" if it make sence ALL the time.

Luke 21:31 (KJV)  So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Is the kingdom is the church, I don't think this verse proposes that.

Luke 1:33 (KJV)  And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

This is New Testament not OT, and an angel is the one who said this

Psalms 22:26-28 (KJV)
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.

2 Timothy 4:1 (KJV)  I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

This denotes that Christ still future appearing is tied in on the revelation of a future kingdom.

Luke 22:18 (KJV)  For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Revelation 19:15-16 (KJV)
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Isaiah 9:6-7 (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV)
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Luke 19:11-19 (KJV)
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

Psalms 22:27-29 (KJV)
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

Psalms 86:9 (KJV)  All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

Psalms 102:13-16 (KJV)
13 Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.
14 For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof.
15 So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory.
16 When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory.

You wrote,

/I will address some objections to this view:

"There is no more Jews or Gentiles, slave or master and man or woman in Christ."

Does it mean that there is no more distinction in roles between a slave and a master? Between man and woman? Are they now interchangeable in the New Covenant?/

I agree with that and seldom see it expressed. In my opinion, this wrong emphasis has been taken so far as to mean that when a Jewish person comes to Christ he must give up his Jewish identity ethnicity. I don't believe this is what the scriptures meant when they say there is no longer any Jew or Gentile in Christ.

/"God has no favoritism."

Surely God has no respecter of persons. But does God has no right to choose whom he will? We often heard of our free will that we always have a choice, how much more God? (Romans 9:11-15) Why does 'God choosing the other over the other' is some sort of offensive to us? (Except when 'you' is the chosen?) Do we really believe that we don't deserve to be saved? That He is the one who choose us and not we?/

I believe that if God chooses to give Israel a place of prominence (as the chieftest of servants) then why should people chafe if this Israel will be in Christ having embraced the Messiah who atoned for them at the cross? Where does it say that what God does for one nation He is obligated to do for all nations? Yet that doesn't mean any will be turned away. Regarding Israel, if one member rejoices all should rejoice. If one member is honored all are honored.

Musings this AM.

Art is very serious and passionate, he comes across as REAL, If the Scriptures are alluding to a Judeo Centric eschatology than I believe that Art's understanding is the most likely senero. having said that I want to present my objection.

RE: ///why should people chafe if this Israel.......///

I believe that the word chafe was in the sermon,
That is the sort of argumentation that I felt from the sermon, That people who do not except this view, it is because it offends them.

If what was presented is the plan of God than we happily except it !.
But the Scriptures that where used and the Scriptures presented by joliboy, simply have not convinced me (at this time) that it is the correct interputation. (I still need to look into it more)
I have at this time not found any evidence that it is the historical position of any Christian/christian in the early days of the church and the first allusion of a Judeo Centric eschatology that we find : as with what was pointed out : Ishodad of Merv (850 AD)., we find (without hardly searching anything on him) that Judaism seems to have influenced his understanding of certain portions of Scripture. (The context of the influence was not eschatology)

compare what was presented basicly a 'Judeo Centric eschatology' with that of an early interputation such as Dialogue Of Justin Philosopher And Martyr With Trypho

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/bible_books/?view=book&book=36

Greg, it seems that a link you gave for this message in video form is different than the one most people have probably listened to at the top of the Sermonindex home page. It's no real problem but the one I listened to on "The Theocratic Kingdom" by Art, one hour and four minutes long, is not the one I am listening to now. From the beginning it is different. I suppose it was Art on two different occasions speaking on the same subject. So now I'll listen to the rest of the one folks are probably listening to.

RE///I believe that the word chafe was in the sermon,
That is the sort of argumentation that I felt from the sermon, That people who do not except this view, it is because it offends them.///

I need to clarify this better : The context was ((from my remembrance)) question form something like this : "What is it about the persicion and literalness of God that chafes us"

when I said (((I believe...))) I mean I think I recall that word being used in the sermon. I have not double checked to see if my recalling was accurate but as I say I believe it is.

/It does occur to me that Jesus could have prevented millions and millions of deaths had He set up His kingdom on earth when He first resurrected. It seems unnecessary that He had to allow countless men, women and children to be slaughtered if all He had to do was set up His throne in physical Jerusalem and wipe out all the surrounding enemies of Israel./

You're missing the mystery that the early gospel proclamations involved based on the backdrop that the prophets had already laid out. It was the mystery that the coming of the Messiah to Israel would be twofold and not just one advent.

5 "But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?'

6 "But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. (John 16:5-6)

Jesus had begun to reveal to them that He would be leaving. The common opinion among all Israel was that when the Messiah appeared to Israel that He would have come to stay. But now a complete different scenario is being revealed, a mystery not known before in other generations. That being the Messiah had come but He would leave before making His second advent. This was a complete sea change in the scheme of redemption that had not been revealed before.

22 Therefore you, too, now have sorrow; but I will see you again, and your heart will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned to joy. (John 16:22)

Peter was the first one to publically proclaim the two advents.

19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,

21 WHOM HEAVEN MUST RECEIVE until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. (Acts 3:19-21)

The period of restoration of all things would be at the second advent of Israel's Messiah and not His first. Until this second advent heaven must receive Him.

/It seems unnecessary that He had to allow countless men, women and children to be slaughtered if all He had to do was set up His throne in physical Jerusalem and wipe out all the surrounding enemies of Israel./

That can be said because of a lack of insight as to the mystery now revealed that the advent of Christ would be twofold. We know know that when He sets up His physical throne in Jerusalem and destroys the enemies of Israel then it will be at His second advent. The first advent was done for the ALL IMPORTANT WORK OF ATONING for sins first. Without that nothing else would be of any avail. If He literally fulfilled the prophecies regarding His first coming and His atoning work why won't the prophecies of His second advent be literally fulfilled?

/Surely, this would have proven to Israel that He was the Messiah and they would have "looked upon the One that was pierced" and repent. This is what is being proposed will happen in the future. Did He allow all these deaths just so the Gentiles could be saved? Wouldn't the Gentiles also be saved, indeed the whole world know back then that He was God in the flesh because He rose from the dead and is now alive again, vanquishing Israel's enemies and sitting on the physical throne off David?/

/Did He allow all these deaths just so the Gentiles could be saved?/

In the most solemn manner that could ever be articulated - YES!

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by thioer transgression, SALVATION HAS COME TO THE GENTILES, to make them jealous.

12 Now if their transgression be riches for the world and their failiure BE RICHES FOR THE GENTILES, how much more wil their fulfillment be! (Romans 11:11-12)

28 From the standpoint of the gospel, they are enemies FOR YOUR SAKE,but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; (Romans 11:28)

/Why did He have to wait 2,000 years to do what people in His time wanted Him to do back then?/

Because the mystery has now been revealed that the advent of Israel's Messiah, the Savior of the Gentiles also, would be a two fold advent. No one saw the unforeseen long gap between the two comings but that has been part of God's wisdom that has worked nothing but favor for the Gentiles.

The Mystery:

1) THE advent of Israel's Messiah would be two fold and when He came He would not be just another spiritual "hero" but very God in the flesh.

2) The interim between His first and second advent, unforeseen as to its long length, would be a time when the covenant nation itself would be in exile as God turned His attention for the most part to the Gentiles.

3) A promised return from exile would occur when a believing remant of the nation would embrace the Messiah of Israel and He would take His long prophesied place upon the throne of David. Yet it would be at His second advent and not His first.

This is the mystery Art speaks of. Yet not just Art but beginning in the early church. What stumbled Israel at His first advent was that Christ had passed through their midst but His claims to be the Messiah had done nothing to change Israel's outward circumstances. Seeing through the lens of human wisdom, for all practical purposes ntohing had changed for Israel. But there remains a second advent to occur.

In the wisdom of God, since Gentiles have benefitted so immensely from Israel's transgression why chafe at a coming exaltation of Israel because it's all in line with the mystery of two advents of the Messiah. What He was expected to do at His first advent will be done at His second advent. Yet without His atoning work at His first advent nothing regarding His second advent would work. The first appearance to make ATONEMENT paved all the way for the second advent though the long interim betwen the two advents was unforeseen and none foresaw the covenant nation itself in exile during the long interim. So if this long interim has worked so profoundly in favor of the Gentiles (all families of the earth will be blessed) "how much more will their fulfillment be?" (Romans 11:12).

O the high and lofty wisdom amd manifold grace of God! Who has been His counselor?

Thank you for your reply here just now. I added a bit to it out of Acts 3:19-21. This is something we could really discuss I believe. It was spoken of in the prophets yet hidden in many ways in their writings until the open proclamation of this mystery that occurred at Christ's first advent.

25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY which was kept secret for long ages past,

26 but now is manifested, and by the SCRIPTURES OF THE PROPHETS, according to the commandment of the eternal God, HAS BEEN MADE KNOWN (openly revealed) to all the nations, leading to the obedience of faith;

27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen. (Romans 16:25-27)

Sister Brenda writes : "Art Katz uses the following verses: Acts 1:6..."

John Wesley's Notes for Acts 1:6

1:6 Dost thou at this time : At the time thou now speakest of? not many days hence? restore the kingdom to Israel? - They still seemed to dream of an outward, temporal kingdom, in which the Jews should have dominion over all nations. It seems they came in a body, having before concerted the design, to ask when this kingdom would come.

C.H. Spurgeon's Verse Expositions of the Bible for Acts 1:6 :

They had not got rid of their old ideas concerning a kingdom visible among men, they still clung to the idea of a temporal kingdom for Israel. There were a kingdom already established by Christ; but in the sense in which they understood the word, they were sadly in error.

People's Bible Notes for Acts 1:6
Ac 1:6 Wilt thou at this time, etc.? They still held to their old ideas of a worldly restoration of the kingdom of Israel. Their only question was, "Wilt thou restore it 'now'"? After the Holy Spirit was given, this delusion was dismissed, and they understood that Christ's kingdom is not of this world.

Brother Art say something like this,

"The Church must be meek and lowly like His Saviour, and not be puffed up that we are ALL IT - THE kingdom of God."

Jesus said with the Pharisees:
Matthew 3:9 (KJV) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

We should not fall on the same trap..

Romans 11:18-20 (KJV)
18 Boast not against the branches(Israel). But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Should we conclude that Paul is not soley focusing on Jesus when he said this, that he is being racial?

In the video Art mentioned this book written by, he said a Lutheran who was rejected by his own movement

"The Theocratic Kingdom" by George Peters (1825-1909)
Mybe it is a good resource.can be downloadrd here:

https://archive.org/details/theocratickingdo03pete

Art said something like this(just pharaphrased):

"Why are we more excited by our next Democratic leader but are not panting for the Theocratic rule of God"?

"Until we don't have cry for God to end violence, rape, murders, abortions and molestations, we will not have an understanding of this mystery. And why don't we?"

A good point I got from the message:

Jesus said to Israel:

Matthew 23:39 (KJV) For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Which is mentioned in the Psalms:

Psalms 118:26 (KJV) Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

I know when Jesus comes, "every eye will see him" so this accepting of Israel of Jesus is tied in with His coming and (not "in") His Kingdom.

One point Art made at the beginning of the "Theocratic Kingdom" featured teaching was that if revivsal is to come why not return to a line of thinking seemingly forgot in many quarters of the church today. I'm paraphrasing, which is probably obvious, but Art said the notion of the kingdom of God has become too objective by the emphasis on it's all "within" which leads many to ignore the scriptural witness that kingdom of God will one day have a geographicqal and political make up on the earth. It will be a theocratic kingdom manifested on the earth and ruled over by Christ as He sits on the throne of David and the word of the Lord goes forth to the nations from Jerusalem. A return to that line of thinking is what Art said could provide the proper wineskins for our thinking and any talk and seeking revival. Then a return to true "apostolic" proclamation could take place as this coming theocratic kingdom, much more than just a kingdom "within", formed the backdrop of the early church's apostolic mandate as backed by the writings of the prophets interpreted in a literal way.

I don't know if all agree with this, I'm sure some don't, but I can at least agree to this part of the teaching.
Much was said but then singing the Lord's prayer at the end:

"Our Father which art in heaven,
Hallowed be Thy name.
Thy kingdom come...."

If God's Kingdom is to come - "Thy kingdom come" - when it does come in its fullness Art said it would have to include Christ hqaving returned to ISRAEL and sitting upon the throne of David in Jerusalem as promised by the prophets. I can agree to this. In this manner, the coming kingdom fullness will not just be a kingdom "within" each believer but will be a openly manifest and entirely visible theocratic demonstration on a physical earth. The theocratic part has been lost by much of the contemporary church in favor of a view where the kingdom is mainly going to be a spiritual type of existence lived mainly in an entirely spiritual plane of existence.

/Isn't His Kingdom a theocratic kingdom, now? Does He or does He not rule in His Kingdom, now? Is the government of the Church on His shoulders or not? Are all the members of His Body not governed by Him through the Holy Spirit./

No, it's not a theocratic kingdom now like the prophets and Art made a attempt to describe. Since I've covered and answered those questions and comments more than once it's enough for me as you don't really seem to listen julius.

/docs, you do not understand that the kingdom of God is spiritual lived right now in this physical plane, called earth. What do you think Christians are doing now? They are assaulting the spiritual Kingdom of darkness. There is a spiritual war going on right now on planet earth./

Then why the emphasis on the kingdom of God being spiritual and not having haveing to do with a material earth? I've tried to point out and aske questions as to why the kingdom of God is so many times portrayed as having to do with a spiritual plane of existence in a far away place that will replace the earth totally because the kingdom is supposedly not of this world. But no problem, it doesn't matter.

Apologies for any of my comments that may have been wrong.

No mas.

Thank you as I want to concentrate more on Greg's admonnitions to be more Christ like in any and every way on the forum.

All these posts etc. over the last months lend me to now support the notion that you are preoccupied with a unhealthy disdain for the premill teaching and even for modern Israel. For osme reason Julius, it seems to bother you to the point of unhealty distraction. Your recent post a few minutes ago that came all of a sudden out of the blue about Jerusalem being surrouded by armies etc. and the view you then espouse toward Israel puts the icing on the cake as you say and tells me a lot. Sorry my friend (sincerely), I've enjoyed speaking with you but your true sentiments are clear now. You may say you support the right of Israel to defend itself etc. but the underlying sentiment you are expressing is clear. Some are premill, some are amill and postmill etc. and so be it. It's the body of Christ and so be it but you seem fixated above the normal. You even said in your very recent post about Jerusalem being surrounded by arnmies that people are in danger of losing their souls if they belive in helping Israel militarily. I thought not having faith in Christ caused one to lose their soul. You are confused and I find it hard to fully believe you any longer and I no longer want to partake of your disdain. I'm through here and talking about this with you. I hope you can find time with your Lord and get things straight a bit. You don't have to become a premill believer but there are things you need to do business with the Lord over I'm thinking.

Not breaking fellowship but withdrawing for now.

Don't worry Greg. I'm through.

Thank you.

Yes you did say that months ago. I grant you that but I still am of the opinion that you could have used better wording and tact and wisdom in many of the things you said. It was not what you said but the way you and others said them. It in fact worked against you and the atmosphere on the forum was not the better for it. Also, dropping into a thread and making a one or two line personal insult and dropping right back out doesn't accomplish anything in my opinion.

I apologize if I have wronged anyone. Meanwhile, I accept you as a brother and in the Lord and your passion for Him. Our Savior is big and wonderful and lovely this Monday morning.

Peace to you as you walk with Him this week.

Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

If Jesus is the heir to all things, that includes Israel, The body of Christ His Church, end times, new Heaven and earth and anything else that is in the plan of God. Why if we are to enter God' rest, why are we so fixed on arguing about what is going to happen when it is fixed already in the Plan of God and we will surely know when it happens.

I have in my mind the security of Jesus Christ as going to finish what He has been involved in before the foundation of the world even began. This is what I stand on;

1 Thessalonians 4:9-18 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another. And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more; And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you; That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

"Ever be with the Lord."

This is my comfort, anything else that I think or believe must take a far back seat to this comfort. Love your brothers and sisters and seek the truth in the Holy Spirit of who, where, when and what Jesus Christ is pertaining to our salvation and comfort and rest in the Lord Jesus Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

P.S; I still don't see brothers and sisters biting and devouring each other over what they cannot change, God is in control not me or anyone else.

Where did you get the Idea that I said "shouldn't even try to".

All I said is self is condemning and I will place my everything on Christ and His Word. Self is not directed at you but at me.

Jeff we have done battle before and that is what it is, I hope I have grown out of that, that is not implying you haven't but I have not said anything against you, that you, "shouldn't even try to", that is to know the things of God and His Christ and His Word for the building up of the saints in love which is His love in me.

Lets not start another war, please in Christ who is birthed in us and our new life is IN Him. "Love one another even as I have loved you" His words, I love you brother, not my love which would be worthless, but His love that is in me and would not say anything to offend you and would repent if you think "I" have. For it would be of me, not Him.

In Christ: Phillip

Our "round and round", did not separate us, I still remember and have grown from the intense posts we had. I thank God for you and have by our fellowship, become more charitable and less confrontational with my brothers and sisters. Still have a long way to go, but thank you for your input to that goal to be more like Christ.

God has blessed me by your input, and may Christ bring the conformity to Christ, to your plate of salvation He has for you.

Yes, "my people parish for lack of knowledge".

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

In Christ: Phillip