When you see Jerusalem compassed with armies...

I have a question:

Does anyone consider this scripture a two-fold prophetic scripture? In other words, it came true in 70AD and it will come true again, just before the Lord comes back?

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Ok, so what is the posture of the Church towards Israel when Israel is surrounded by armies?

Does the Church just pray and intercede for them or do they get involved, physically, somehow?

What has been the posture of the Church the last 40 years and what level of involvement is the Church supposed to have from a physical and scriptural point of view when the nation of Israel is assaulted?

Brother,

Many try and point to Nero as the partial or full fulfillment of this passage. I believe it is stretching passages in Daniel and in the Gospels to make it fit with Nero. "compassed with armies" is plural so it seems as if many nations will come against the jewish people and particularly jerusalem.

Also brother, I believe this subject has been discussed too much in the current few weeks so I will ask you to please put it to rest for a time and try and find things in the Scripture and on this website that can encourage your daily walk with the Lord.

In the beginning of the passage in Luke 21 it says:

8 He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened.

We can take heed to this and receive encouragement to not be deceived or be caught up in fear.

And later on I believe a very important exhortation we all need to heed is:

34 "Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

No, this is a new discussion, Greg. I am trying to ascertain if Christians today believe in running from carnal aggression as Jesus indicated or do they believe in taking up arms to safeguard what they say is God's physical nation, Israel?

I think the scriptures are clear that our battle is not carnal and we risk losing our soul if we think we are doing God's bidding to go to war against carnal enemies of carnal Israel or any carnal/earthly country for that matter.

I would like to know if anyone that believes in God bringing His spiritual kingdom to carnal Israel and saving everyone all at once, believe that He will do it Himself or the Church will be engaged by God to engage Israel's enemies, militarily. I know John Hagee and his followers believe this. Do other millennialists believe this.

Greg, you are a millenialist, right? Do you believe the Church is supposed to take up arms to defend carnal Israel? (by carnal, I mean earthly nation).

This scripture twisting to demonize Israel and God's eternal purpose for them is back in full force. They are not so subtle any longer, they are no longer camouflaging their venom toward the seed of Abraham, Isaac
and Jacob.

I am of the seed of Abraham, how could I hate my own?

My question remains. I will make is simple and to the point:

Is the Church prophesied to take up carnal arms to execute the vengeance of the Lord?

Neil you posted this:

"In the past 6 months , a fell and dark spirit has come over this forum, I speak the truth in Christ. It manifests itself in all the "-ism's and -ist's", "doctrines", "theologies"....in putting up MAN MADE "fence lines" between "old and new Testaments", appropriating....no...nay, outright thievery of God's blessings and curses, attaching curses to the Vine, and stealing blessings to Ingrafted Vines, of parsing Portions of Scripture to make MAN....."right in their OPINIONS"..."

Sad but true.
These foxes are attempting destroy the vine located here on SI and if left unchecked will .......... but this need not be.

You have a rebel on this website, with an "agenda"...singular, almost as if he was being whipped along by something truly unholy.

FIRST, he makes an OP that is designed to be incendiary, as has been his wont for many months now.

then you, in all meekness, make a very simple request:

"Also brother, I believe this subject has been discussed too much in the current few weeks so I will ask you to please put it to rest for a time and try and find things in the Scripture and on this website that can encourage your daily walk with the Lord."

and instead of complying, the poster in question, shoots this right back at you:

"No, this is a new discussion, Greg.".....and even serves as a sort of neo-inquisitor to you, by almost asking/demanding;

"Greg, you are a millenialist, right? Do you believe the Church is supposed to take up arms to defend carnal Israel? (by carnal, I mean earthly nation). "

Greg, it seems like he's baiting YOU, who have labored thru two decades.

Back in the day, if someone had "agenda" and was not submissive to forum leadership?....their posting privileges were ended.

Frankly, I believe the poster in question was SENT to both throw the forum into an uproar and/or destroy the witness.

To Julius:
And the wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round.

It seems like a lot of these straw men & banana peels have been explained at tremendous length before. There's either a problem in communication, an inability to hear & listen without a block, or something else.

I'm not taking up any arms except the weapons of our warfare in the scriptures, & the armor of God, to pRay & intercede.

Respectfully, why not post something occasionally the Lords doing in your life, something showing the fruit of the "Kingdom of God within", etc. These same old controversial posts on the same thing over and over and over again? If you say I've done it too, it was in response to the onslaught & not being able to sit & watch it anymore. But even when others go quiet, you keep bringing it up, keep coming, keep laying false things at the feet of those who disagree with your view. What's driving/motivating you bro?

Even when people answer all the questions, it's as if you don't hear & then regroup to come back again with the same stuff sooner or later? For someone who doesn't believe at all in a "material" kingdom, but only a "spiritual kingdom within" - What is God doing in your life? How is your theology affecting your Orthaproxy?

God Bless,
Jeff

Julias,

Bro Greg has asked you to change the subject. Some folks live for controversy. When it is clearly not edifying and has resulted in the locking of many threads and has resulted in a bad spirit between brothers. why do your persist? Tell you what Julias, why not share your testimony here? Tell us how you came to know Jesus, how you love Him and perhaps some testimony of how He has blesses you over the years. I believe this would be edifying............bro Frank

Apollus, you probably missed it, but I already agreed with docs that we are both going to stop commenting on these threads.

Post removed

Tell you what Julias, why not share your testimony here? Tell us how you came to know Jesus, how you love Him and perhaps some testimony of how He has blesses you over the years. I believe this would be edifying

I second this request, it would be wonderful to hear how your soul come to know the Saviour.

And to answer the main point hopefully of your question, the Gospels nor our Lord ever give us justification to hurt another person but rather forgive, bless, love and die for.

Neil is right,

It's not just an SI thing, I belong to a few Hi-End Audio sites and there are some that are simply combative and unless they are given a time out or are tossed they disrupt everything. One forum that was once very popular is now nothing but tumble weeds because of a few guys that operated exactly like rogues.

Brother J I reached out to you personally and in kindness, your wisdom is not from above.

Marc mc

Thank you very much for your reply, Greg.

I also believe that. His life in us would rather suffer persecution and death than inflict the same on others.

My testimony is in the Word so I'll start with this:

He brought me up out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings. And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters. He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me. For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell. I sought the LORD, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears. He hath delivered my soul in peace from the battle that was against me. Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct me, and withheldest not thy manna from my mouth, and gavest me water for my thirst. Thou hast redeemed me, O Lord God of truth. I have hated them that regard lying vanities: but I trust in the Lord. I will be glad and rejoice in thy mercy: for thou hast considered my trouble; thou hast known my soul in adversities;
And hast not shut me up into the hand of the enemy: thou hast set my feet in a large room. I will sing unto the LORD, because he hath dealt bountifully with me.

Details of my old life tend to give glory to the enemy.

Hi Julias, I agree that details of our old life can and often does give the enemy to much platform time. That is why it is good to hear details of our new life. Yet I was hoping to hear in your own words the circumstances surrounding you being saved and how He has changed you over the however many years it has been since you were saved. That might be a good place to start, how long have you been saved? I was saved at the age of 26 and I am 52.................bro Frank

Hi Apollus,

As pearls are, the testimony the Lord has given to me is precious. I have been ridiculed, belittled, slandered and accused by NDY, Rev_Enue and Neil. (And of course I am constantly reminded those types of attacks are not condoned, here). With those three in mind, who attack with impunity, this may not be a good environment in which to cast my pearls. I simply cannot trust the three amigos getting to know me more intimately. I'm sorry, but I trust you understand.

Hi Julias. You sound a tad bitter, that is a trap of the enemy. Lets suppose the three that you mentioned were your real enemies, how are we to treat our enemies? First of Julias, my name is Frank. Appolus is simply a screen name. You see, there is a man behind the screen name. A man with a testimony who loves Jesus. That is why i want to hear your testimony. Your theological stances on non-essential subjects are of little importance to me.

For 1700 years, men have killed other men over theological differences. This burning hatred that has led men to kill other men is of Satan and lies at the heart of everything that is religious. By engaging in theological subjects, subjects that the best minds of the world could not agree on, is in the end an act of futility. That is why agreeing to disagree takes all the sting out of the enemy and is an act of humility.

Phill 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things. 9The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

So brother, if you feel you cannot share your testimony on this forum, do you really think you should be here? I would encourage Neil and NDY and Rev_Enue to share their own testimonies here on this thread. If all four of you guys can be vulnerable with each other and see the men behind the theological stances, then I believe that we could make a real breakthrough. There should be a season where we all refrain from starting threads on theological subjects and simply study Jesus through our own personal testimonies. In this way i believe we would foil the schemes of the enemy..........bro Frank

edit:

Hi Frank,

I think you misunderstood me. I am not bitter at all towards the three friends. I was trying to say that I don't want to be foolish. I hope you understand.

I have been threatened by one of them and if I tell my testimony and they put 2 + 2 together they could make good on their threat and harm me. Not physically, but maybe my employment or by other means. I need to be wise. Now, you understand.

No, I dont Julias.............bro Frank

Julius I understand that you needed to make a wise decision!

Having said that I know you are feeling very strongly about what you believe and you have done a lot of studies to back it up. But maybe stepping back a bit at times would have helped and to point all of us back to the Lord again instead of repeating yourself.

The wider question here is, are we now just single out one person in an otherwise "perfect " forum??
We had endless posts about other topics (eg GFA ) and the word "venom " came up again.
Frank wrote: " I would encourage Neil and NDY and Rev_Enue to share their own testimonies here on this thread "

What is the deeper problem?
Paul wrote: "For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified."

But our flesh, our "addictions", our heritage etc are often stronger then our desire to "live for Christ"
Paul wrote: I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me (Galatians 2:20)

If we could say that our fellowship would be different.

Blessings

Thank you, Savannah and Markus, for understanding.

I am very happy to take a break from the forum for a time.

"I am very happy to take a break from the forum for a time."

I think that would be very wise Julius, but please do come back, I have been blessed by your gentle and encouraging spirit towards others.

Personally, I could not care less what a persons eschatological view are...as long as they love Jesus and treat others with patience, kindness and love.

I have sat by the wayside listening in on many of these discussions with Julius and although I DO NOT agree with his views, I do not feel that he has been treated well.

The way some of you have spoken down to and treated Julius is shameful. And it is not just with cutting words, but with an unpleasant and superior spirit in some cases. Some attribute him to having an unclean spirit and others seem to be calling his very salvation into question?

Huh? Has this forum gone insane?

Some of you may have the more perfect view on eschatological issues but do you know the more perfect Way? Do you keep a perfect spirit of love towards those with whom you disagree on non-essentials?

And those of you who have locked horns and gone to battle with Julius in these "foolish arguments" threads certainly are not innocent. But have you ever reached out to him personally? Have you taken the time and gotten to know him? Or is your goal in life to merely gain the theological high ground over others?

Like I said, I feel Julius is dead wrong on Amillenism and other non-essential things, but so what? He is my brother and thats all that matters.

Personally I do not know why Julius has bothered to stay so long on these forums, I would have left long ago if I had endured the treatment that some of you have given him.

And brother Frank, seriously? After what Julius has been through here do you really think he can just walk it off and open up his heart to people who feel this way about him? What is there NOT to understand about why he would choose to keep his private life to himself?

Frank if you are so interested in Julius's personal life, why not reach out to him privately and give him a call? I am being serious. If you did this you never know what God might do???

I personally believe a miracle would take place!

I have been missing a lot of recent discussions due to health challenges (praise God for His continued guidance) but l would just like to say please don't leave Julius, your posts are a great blessing to me.

You are always polite and extremely worth hearing.

And brother Frank, seriously? After what Julius has been through here do you really think he can just walk it off and open up his heart to people who feel this way about him? What is there NOT to understand about why he would choose to keep his private life to himself?

In most cases Christians should be able to share their testimony with others, this is one way we essentially get to know each other because the only reason we are talking together on this forum is because of Jesus Christ, period.

To say that our testimony is a pearl that we cannot share with other believers is wrong thinking, rather if there are christians that are not unified with us in certain theological and bible verse thinking if we share our testimony it should only bring unity and further agreeance that we are all brothers and sisters together in the Lord.

There is no reason for saints such as the 5-6 brethren listed in this thread to focus more on Jesus and share encouraging exhortations towards christian life and not post on end times viewpoints. Actually this might be what the Lord is trying to show some of you brethren that it is more important to the Lord to fellowship around His Son then every nuance of end times doctrine.

I agree with brother Mark that it is shameful how some brethren have responded to those who they disagree with on BOTH sides, it actually is more important to have the right attitude of love then be right in doctrine alone. If you cannot love someone and express it then you are probably not the right person who has the fruits of the spirit of GENTLENESS TO teach someone.

2 Timothy 2:25New International Version (NIV)

25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

Lastly, I have asked repeated times for saints to not post on certain end times views and my heeds have gone unwarranted. This disregarding speaks to a deeper issue of submission to any authority in one's life and not willing to respect others in the body of Christ, especially any form of servant leadership.

It is a privilege for all of us to post on these forums beside some of the godliest saints in Church history. Does our testimony in words add to this salt and light on the internet or are we pleasing the enemy of our souls in bring discord, envy, hurts, jealousies, bitterness, hard words, condemnations, accusations, etc.

Savannah, there is an attempt to take combatants eyes of themselves and their favorite subjects and turn their eyes towards Jesus and lifting Him up.

When I was young and growing up in an Irish Catholic housing scheme, there were fights every day. Someone would call someone out, but the real instigators were those who took up sides and shouted from the sidelines. All of the onlookers/instigators would form a circle around the two who were to fight, locking them in. Even if they decided not to fight, those who surrounded them would not allow them, they would keep it going. Savannah, less drama and more focus on Jesus is the way out of what has ailed the forum of late. We can either be part of the solution to that or part of the problem. May the name of Jesus be raised up and simply let Jesus deal with " old scores." The Lord knows our hearts.........bro Frank

I'm not trying to add to this drama. I'm not. I have tried to stay out of this drama, especially as of late. I will also say that I believe that the way 3-4 of the posters here on SI spoke to/about Julius was wrong. Dead wrong. I also even admitted & apologized for at times going too far and/or saying too much. I did that publicly too from the heart.

However, before we set up a martyrs grave here for Julius, I do think it should also be said that I, before having done any of these things, came to Julius' side, was kind, soft, gentle, giving the benefit of the doubt To him, etc. & why did I receive from Julius? Sarcasm, attacks, snarky comments, being grouped up on by him & the 3-4 here who have pushed his narrative, etc. Julius was nasty towards me early on and I was nothing but kind & gracious to him. Don't just remember the most recent threads & ignore the ones from a couple/few weeks ago and how we got to the place where we are now on some of these discussions. And then he actually accused, as well as everyone else on the forum & in the majority of church history who believes in Premillinealism, of having received a "False Gospel, False Christ, FALSE SALVATION" (His words/title - before changing it - not mine). But all I asked for was likewise an apology to all those he accused of not having "TRUE SALVATION" (which is pulling up wheat that Jesus warned against). All I asked for repeatedly was to admit the wrong & apologize? Yes, I went on and on, because he refused to do it. Did it ever happen? No it did not.

So let me be clear: I don't "know" Julius, but I have & wil continue to pray for him. He doesn't want to share his testimony? Fine. His perogative I guess? But if he refuses to apologize for calling everyone who doesn't agree with his (minority) views as having a "False Gospel, False Christ, FALSE SALVATIONl, then as nice as Julius may come across, there's an issue there. I have "ZERO" unforgiveness, bitterness, or anything else in my heart, for Julius (& everyone else), I mean that. But refusing at all costs & great lengths to avoid repenting/apologizing for accusing others of not being saved for not sharing his eschatology is an issue to me, a big one. And not because it's "my issue", but I believe it's the Lords. Anyways, either way, I will pray for Julius & for everyone involved here (including me) to grow in grace, love, patience & humility in the knowledge of our Lord.

God Bless,
Jeff

Amen. Your testimony is & should be a testimony to HIS GRACE to save us in spite of us. I personally believe that It doesn't give the devil a stage, but puts him to shame. That however "gone" we were, the Grace of God overcame the works of the devil in our lives & saved us. I have always thought people who said otherwise used a fallacious argument. Sure, don't "glory" in your past sin/shame, but don't hide it either (the apostle Paul didn't). Humbly share what a bound soul you were, but that the glory & Grace of God was greater & that where sin abounded, grace did all the more abound. Why I love sharing my testimony. I was the worse of the worse man. But that's not some "tattoo" for the Devils glory or something, but rather a testimony to the Love, mercy, & Grace of God! And My full testimony before Christ leaves people (even me) speechless at His mercy, but my testimony of failure & His continued love & Grace even AFTER my regeneration is what breaks me down, humbles me & brings me to tears even more. It's all about His grace, mercy, love & faithfulness!

I think it was Spurgeon who spoke of our past being like a rear-view mirror in a driver's seat: not near as big as the front windshield or where our primary focus should be to see where we are going, but there for a reason nonetheless to look back & see what's behind us. And rejoice! 😊