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Has the American Church Met Its Burden?

T
TMK

I wanted to toss this out there for discussion, because of the talk of coming judgment, etc.

I think the general sentiment of certain Christians is that the Church has failed miserably in its mission, which is why morality, etc in the US is so pervasive.

So my question is, what would it take for the Church to meet its burden in God's eyes? If the Church could meet this burden, would we definitely see a change in society, or is this not guaranteed?

I guess my question boils down to what would it take for the Church to not be culpable in the eyes of God?

S
sermonindex

Jesus says, "Take my yoke (burden) upon you".

Maybe, it is just as simple as refusing to "yoke up with Jesus", and do things on our own rather than doing His will. That seems to be the difference between religion and relationship.

Milt Green puts it this way: "Lord, we have read the Bible, and we see how it is done, so we will take it from here".

A
AlmostHome

It would seem to me, although I'm hardly an expert and can only give my own personal thoughts, that for the church to not be culpable in the eyes of God, we would have had to have been an obedient, loving, abiding body of believers. The world would be looking at us in awe, recognizing that we're different from them by our love, and wanting what we have. Namely Jesus Himself.

We haven't been like that at all. We've gone off and done our own thing and created our own rules and programs and relied on our own ways, etc., So, we've failed to trust and rely on Jesus alone and that makes us culpable. I think it's that simple... and that shameful.

So, now the question becomes: What are we going to do about it? The chances of the entire church body on earth repenting and giving their all to Christ is infinitesimal. (Although, I'm an immovable believer that God can do A.N.Y.T.H.I.N.G. Even at this point in biblical history.)

But, I'm of the opinion (which means absolutely N.O.T.H.I.N.G.) that revival is now likely to come more in individuals than in the body as a whole. We're living in the time of testing where it's becoming more and more evident who has oil in their lamp and who is a noisy gong. False Christians are dropping like flies in today's political and social climate. The Lukewarm are being confronted and warned by True Believers and the Holy Spirit to repent. These things I DO know.

Has the church met her burden? No. If so, the world would be a very different place. But, God foresaw this, made provision, and His plan is coming to pass exactly as He wants it to. That's where I'm of the opinion that individuals are being dealt with right now... in preparation of what's around the corner.

T
TMK

Keith wrote: "Has the church met her burden? No. If so, the world would be a very different place. But, God foresaw this, made provision, and His plan is coming to pass exactly as He wants it to."

Hi Keith- is that another way of saying that the current state of the Church was in God's plan all along?

I don't want to put words in your mouth.

A
AlmostHome

What an excellent question! Not exactly. What I'm saying is that God sees the end from the beginning and provided for it. Just as He foresaw sin coming into the world. It wasn't part of His plan, but He provided for it.

I believe we've all been given free will and the power of choice. If that weren't so, God wouldn't have put the tree in the garden that Adam and Eve weren't to eat from. God foresaw that they would and that sin would come into the world. So, even before the world was created, He provided the cure for sin and death, too - His Son's sacrifice on the cross.

Without choice, without free will, we're just robots or toys to be played with. And, as with all choices, come consequences and we're responsible for those, too. The church made wrong choices and we have been met with the consequences for those choices.

Even so, "but God!"

S
sermonindex

TMK,
I just wrote out a long detailed explanation about how God knows everything obviously and it's on a master level part of his plan. And how free will of man and yet total sovereignty of God work together in concert (and somehow it got erased 😁), but in short to answer your question, it was also part of gods plan to send Jonah to preach the Nineveh that they would repent, All the while knowing that he would not too much later destroy Nineveh in judgment again. Such discussions can open up a whole paradigm and Pandora's box of discussions concerning God's total sovereignty and our responsibility. But yes, God knew everything all the way up until the very end, from before the foundations of the world in the very beginning as we know it. And yet, even with God having created the devil and knowing the rebellion take place, and the fact that everything "must cross God's desk", we also know that Romans 828 is always true which says "All things work together for the good of them that love God and are called according to his plan and purpose". And that "ALL" includes the God ordained prophetic cry to repent to avert potential judgment, The judgments and chastisements themselves that are sent that burn up sinners in the process, purify Saints, and awaken some in the valley of decision to come in to the kingdom, etc. The deep things & all His ways & reasons belong to the Lord. Job when he began asking certain questions of "why" of God got some very interesting rhetorical questions asked back to Him like " where were you when I created the foundations of the heavens and the earth in the beginning?". Our finite minds in my opinion struggle to reconcile gods total sovereignty and yet our responsibility. Or as others what state it the difference between sovereignty and free will. I'm content in knowing that God knows all these things far better and I, there are never any contradictions in God, and then I can just trust and obey him and respond to his word Weather by the logos and our scriptures primarily of course, or a true Rhwma prophetic word by His Spirit.
Just my 2 cents,
Jeff

D
docs

I don't see the church as totally responsible for society and its failures and inclination to wickedness. It's two different kingdoms - the kingdom of the world continues on and the kingdom of God continues to grow simultaneously alongside of the kingdoms of the world. They have always been tracking along side each other during history while not being part of the other. Now we know that no matter how many are saved and how much the church continues to grow that, "In the last days difficult times will come and evil men and impostors shall prceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived." (II Tim 3:1,13) A end time revivial of salvation of souls is likely to take place in the midst of a great revival of wickedness among men and nations. One is the kingdoms of this world and the other will be the growth of the kingdom of God.

Where I'm at right now is thinking the church needs to begin again to emphasize that the new creation in Christ is created to love when all is said and done. That may be historically the church's greatest culpability and may continue to be. "By this all men will know you are My disciples if you have love for one another." (John 13:35) I wish I knew knew how to do it better.

I also think the concept and view Art Katz expressed in "The Theocratic Kingdom" needs to be revivied again and brought back to the church's consciousness. Not just the view that Christ will rule when He returns to the earth to the same nation He ascended from but how the mystery of Israel and the church are interrelated and how these two destinies are destined to merge again. This view, as Art said, may not just be lacking but sorely lacking in the contemporary church's consciousness making it culpable to a degree in many ways.

II Peter 1:19.

T
TMK

Let me ask this - is God more concerned with the wickedness of the ungodly or the lukewarmness of the Church?

I think back to when Abraham was dickering with God over Sodom. God was looking for at least 10 non-wicked people.

So I am wondering now if his focus is on a certain number of non-lukewarm Christians or a decrease in overall wickedness. Of course only He would be qualified to judge these things.

So looking at it another way, do any of you think that if there did happen to be true widespread revival in the Church that it would have a measurable effect on the amount of evil in society?

Or, has Anerica's fate been sealed, so to speak.

And very importantly- we have to remember that a true revival is for HIS sake and not for the benefit of saint or sinner.

S
sermonindex

"Judgement begins in the house of God", but doesn't stop there. Like Docs said, the two kingdoms are side by side. God is first & foremost concerned with His bride, but there are also things God will only bear so long before He stands & speaks in judgement, & then of course there is the matter of the final apocalyptic eschatological judgement, His return, the bowls of His wrath, etc.

These are complex issues that we can see & know so much in history & scripture, but if we try to "pin it all down in perfect little neat boxes" where we can be the theological key holders on God's mind/will/ways, we tend to "over-simplify" it.
Just my thoughts,
Jeff

A
AlmostHome

I enjoy a good discussion. I'm utterly fascinated with learning and growing. There's nothing wrong with wondering these things and discussing them.

I say that to say it's good to remember what's most important though. What's done is done and cannot be undone. We can learn from the past but we shouldn't dwell there. We look to what can be done about it in the future by addressing it in the present. That starts with individuals addressing their own responsibility in the matter by examining themselves, repenting and moving forward.

I think that's the good of this conversation that Todd started. Is it causing us to examine our own culpability? Looking into the past to lay blame should only serve to remind us what not to do now.

S
sermonindex

There is a lot of mixture between the two kingdoms, right now.

The salt can lose it's savor and be good for nothing.

A light can be put under a bushel and not give off any light.

Jesus tells those who are His to come out of religious Babylon.

There should be no mixture in the Church, but there is. The wheat and the tares are difficult to distinguish. Man is unable to separate them. Only God has the wisdom to do that. In the meantime, He calls His own to come out of Babylon. Those who are His will answer the call. (The Lord knoweth them that are His).

Paul - speaking to the Church.
"But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils." (1 Cor 10:20)

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" (2 Cor 6:14)

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." (Eph 5:11)

The burden of the Church is the Lord's burden and His burden is for us to stay yoked up to Him, so He (and NO ONE ELSE) can lead us.

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them THAT OBEY HIM;" (Heb 5:9)

T
TMK

Hey Julius-

In your view what would "coming out of Babylon" entail? What would it look like?

S
sermonindex

edit:

Come out of everything that is not of Christ. If you have allowed yourself to be led into something that is not of Christ, allow the Lord to lead you out. I can't give you a list of things as this is Spirit-led. Usually, ungodly, unChristlike things we have been led into are tied to relationships and so if we love the relationship more than we love the Lord we will justify and reason within ourselves that "this is of Christ". If you are not sure about something, fast and pray and seek the Lord for clarity and direction. If we ask Him, wanting the truth no matter how much it hurts, He is faithful to answer.

Only the Holy Spirit and the Word can lead each man out of darkness, out of "Babylon". It can be so many different, subtle things of the heart.

T
TMK

I sort of meant from the more corporate standpoint. What would the corporate church in America look like if it came out of Babylon?

S
sermonindex

When you prefix church with corporate, how does that modify the church? In other words how does "corporate church" and "church" differ? Is there a difference in your mind?

The Holy Spirit is faithful to lead us into all truth. Leading us into all truth will lead us out of religious Babylon. One cannot take the Bible and make a rule book out of it. "Coming out" of Babylon is a spiritual, heart centered coming out, not necessarily physical as in leaving a particular organization.

D
dolfan

The OP question remains open.

Would things differ materially here if the church revived? We cannot say. I would say that a revival of such scale needed to bring about that change is unprecedented. Revivals have been widespread but not thoroughly leavening society. There have been deep abiding local or regional revivals from God but He has not put on a sweeping and sudden societal changing movement, not in the sense of awakening and revival as we read of from the past.

Not even the Great Awakening(s) did that. Widespread pockets? Yes. Moral influence beyond conversions? Sure. But, the latter does not count and has no eternal value. In fact, in a real sense "moral social order" disguises lostness; there is an argument to be made that the enemy sows tares of moralism where revival occurs. Nothing says "OK boys, work's done here" like the sprouting of fruit that pleases the eye. And when society appears moral, we bite that fruit and spiritual revival turns to self reliance. Utah social order is an example of this sort of artifice.

It seems to me the best measure of revival is the life of the church and not the moral rectitude of society. Revival causes trouble. Revival is a subterfuge and sabotage of the social order. China knows what real revival is. Iran knows. I have a sense that N. Korea may already know. Those places are not more moral, not less deserving of judgment.

And let's also check whether our measurements are true. We do not know justice by our own goodness. We cannot vouch for ourselves. We cannot say to God, "We have mitigated Your cause against us."

T
TMK

J-

I agree that individuals need to be revived first. But I don't think a couple of revived individuals will do anything to change society or even the Church.

When I say corporate Church I mean the whole body of Christians. What would it look like if the Church came out of Babylon? If that is nothing but a pipe dream why do people keep talking about it and praying for it?

S
sermonindex

[by dolfan on 2016/5/10 6:45:08

It seems to me the best measure of revival is the life of the church and not the moral rectitude of society. Revival causes trouble. Revival is a subterfuge and sabotage of the social order. China knows what real revival is. Iran knows. I have a sense that N. Korea may already know. Those places are not more moral, not less deserving of judgment.

And let's also check whether our measurements are true. We do not know justice by our own goodness. We cannot vouch for ourselves. We cannot say to God, "We have mitigated Your cause against us."

Very, very good points. Compare the life of the Early Church with that of surrounding Romish life. The life of the Church in China, North Korea, today.

S
sermonindex

by TMK on 2016/5/10 7:29:34

J-

I agree that individuals need to be revived first. But I don't think a couple of revived individuals will do anything to change society or even the Church.

Nevertheless, a revived individual has great influence on those around him/her but we don't repent and revive for the sake of others, but for the sake of Christ.

When I say corporate Church I mean the whole body of Christians. What would it look like if the Church came out of Babylon? If that is nothing but a pipe dream why do people keep talking about it and praying for it?

I can't answer that either, TMK. I have read the end of the Book and things get worse and worse for the world. The Scriptures also indicate that the Corporate Church (whole body of what we see with our eyes) is not going to come out of Babylon.

"Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." (Matt 13:30)

The question should be "am I partaking of anything that is not of Christ?"

2Tim 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

2Pet 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2Cor 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

T
TMK

J wrote: "I can't answer that either, TMK. I have read the end of the Book and things get worse and worse for the world. The Scriptures also indicate that the Corporate Church (whole body of what we see with our eyes) is not going to come out of Babylon."

Then why does this site exist; why all the calls for a new great awakening that will never happen?

[these questions aren't directed just to you, and may be rhetorical. I'm not sure].

S
sermonindex

Todd, can I respond to your question with a question? (in a soft meek voice, since you cannot hear my voice)

you asked, " Has the American Church Met Its Burden?"

and I ask this:

of all the seminaries, and conferences held in the Name of Messiah Jesus, have you ever heard of a "course" offered that is titled:

"Weeping 101"...or maybe "Weeping and Wailing between the Porch and Altar 101"?

the syllabus?...or list of books to purchase?

none, only the prerequisite of being Baptized in the Holy Ghost, and even then, the Lord might give a "waiver", because once you are face flat, prone on the floor, wooden or carpeted, open to the Wind of the Spirit, He will give you this Baptism in His Love


second question, in all the seminaries or conferences have you ever seen a course "Travailing 101"?

a similar course, in that there is no real "syllabus" or books to buy, in fact you don't need chairs of desks....just God the Holy Ghost, and floor, to get face down on, and commune with the One you love.

have you ever seen these offered?

meekly I say, your answer to my questions, will answer your question.

in Jesus' love, neil

S
sermonindex

you asked:

"Then why does this site exist; why all the calls for a new great awakening that will never happen?"

"......that will never happen?"

are you sure?

Have you, God forbid, lost faith? (no rancor meant in that question)....or have others with their vain and man centered OPINIONS.....steered you into the shoals of hopelessness?

Faith is ALL we have, Dependence, simple and child-like, on God is ALL we have...the rest?...just human noise.

"never happen?".......mmmmm, as Jesus said, "Don't fear, believe".

xo


S
sermonindex

by TMK on 2016/5/10 9:14:29

J wrote: "I can't answer that either, TMK. I have read the end of the Book and things get worse and worse for the world. The Scriptures also indicate that the Corporate Church (whole body of what we see with our eyes) is not going to come out of Babylon."

Then why does this site exist; why all the calls for a new great awakening that will never happen?

[these questions aren't directed just to you, and may be rhetorical. I'm not sure].

Don't get me wrong, TMK. I believe this site exists for individual revival, first. Like the old song, "It only takes a spark to get a fire going".

Jesus, in speaking to the seven churches in the last book of the Bible is admonishing them to repent and seek their first love. Jesus is speaking to the Church and those individuals who have ears to hear will answer the Lord's call. He speaks to the Church, corporate and yet He is speaking to the individual because individuals are led by the Holy Spirit. What will you do? What will I do? Those are the questions. Not, what will they do?

"Though none go with me, still I will follow".

This site's purpose may be only for revival, but I think it is used for much more than just that.

S
sermonindex

"The Holy Spirit is faithful to lead us into all truth. Leading us into all truth will lead us out of religious Babylon. One cannot take the Bible and make a rule book out of it. "Coming out" of Babylon is a spiritual, heart centered coming out, not necessarily physical as in leaving a particular organization."

This statement above by our brother Julius is one of the most important things to be understand as we progress closer towards the end of all things.

It is the lack of understanding of this very truth that will make the difference in these last days between those who will truly fellowship with the Lord and one another and those who merely want to "come out" of a building church and go into a house church.

EDIT: Julius (or anyone), how do you do those nice quotes with lines above and below? Whenever I try to use the quote box nothing ever shows up so I resort to the old fashioned quotes.

T
TMK

Hey Neil- of course I have never seen such courses.

The vast majority of US Christians would have no idea what you are talking about, which is rather discouraging in and of itself.

No, I haven't lost faith, or hope.

But I do agree with Ravenhill- "as long as we are willing to live without revival, we will."

S
sermonindex

Julius (or anyone), how do you do those nice quotes with lines above and below? Whenever I try to use the quote box nothing ever shows up so I resort to the old fashioned quotes.

I have been told the secret to quotes and I am part of the club:-)

D
dolfan

I tried a funny and it backfired.

T
TMK

Must be something only you Gnostics are privy to. You and your hidden knowledge...😉

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