"Why I’m Sure Israel Will Be Saved"-Dr Michael Brown

presented without comment:

http://askdrbrown.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Why-Im-Sure-Israel-Will-Be-Saved-A-Message-of-Faith.mp3

I read this passage this morning, it is so clear there is zero explanation that really is needed. May God keep us gentiles from being CONCEITED, we have received mercy for this season in human history to believe in the true God and His Son from heaven. Hallelujah.!

Romans 11:25-28 New International Version (NIV)

All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[a] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[b] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[c]
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

God love you, I do.....I was on the "morning watch" at 3AM, and the Lord has me going back and forth, back and forth between Isaiah 40 to 54 for maybe a month or two (time ceases to register with me), which contain the Four Suffering Servant(Jesus) Songs.....and I was eating of the 4th Song , Isaiah 52:13-53:12....carefully, lovingly:

"Behold, my servant shall act wisely;
he shall be high and lifted up,
and shall be exalted.

As many were astonished at you””
his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance,
and his form beyond that of the children of mankind””

so shall he sprinkle many nations;
kings shall shut their mouths because of him;
for that which has not been told them they see,
and that which they have not heard they understand.

Who has believed what he has heard from us?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.

He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned””every one””to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.

By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?

And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.

Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.

Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors."

Then I closed the Book, and since God gifted me with this beautiful hermitage I live in, house cleaning is a form of worship to me, even though I am a single man, and let me be transparent and say that my skills in this are substandard, though there is no filth, mind you, when one has thousands of books, and supplies to maintain a rural property, charitably put, we could say its a "man cave" in modern vernacular.

when I house clean I listen to messages from those saints I gravitate to , and before I even went to the computer, I heard our Father's voice tell me to put this message on SI with no comment, and a prayer that it would bless others.

I could have wrote this to you as a private email, but felt it good and right that our dialogue be before the followers of Jesus...here, especially, Praise God, any new loved ones who have recently opened accounts, because you and I have known each other for 14 years, and it is a testimony to the Pure, Wholesome, Lovely , Holy , Majestic Indwelling of God the Holy Spirit, when brothers dialogue in Messiah Jesus, with the Pure Love of Jesus, which are the true riches of the Kingdom, neil

Amen.

"To a plain man, untrammeled by traditional interpretation, the words of this prophecy appear very simple."
JC Ryle, on Romans 11:26

isn't Jesus Wonderful?...isn't the Holy Spirit such Sweet Counsel?

A holy kiss on your cheeks from me, thru the air....don't worry, I brushed my teeth......xo, neil

The Way.....The Simple Faith.

Joel
Chapter 3

1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.

4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;

5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:

6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.

7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head:

8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:

10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.

12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.

19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

Great message by Michael Brown too. Good stuff! The Word of God & the Spirit of God within bearing witness of this truth!
God Bless,
Jeff

Rev quoted Joel 3: 16

"16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel."

His people, those in Christ AND the children of Israel turning back to their messiah, Jesus the Christ as his soon return is nearing.

And what a gracious, Biblical, & balanced presentation of the issue of Israel this is too. For all those turned off at the whole issue because of the way it's dealt with by some on the side of Israel's eschatological Restoration, I would say that Michael Brown's presentation here is not "over-shot", "over-stated", mere "emotionalism" or condemnation, etc. Just very balanced, Biblical & very good. And he even addresses those that take the issue "too far" & to extremes, but points out that one can't name a single doctrinal issue where some don't take it too far, but that doesn't nullify the truth. I would encourage even those who disagree doctrinally thus far (replacement theology adherents & the like) to check this message out, if your heart is open at all to look at it from another viewpoint of a seasoned, wise, Biblically literate scholar/teacher (this brother has a PHD in Hebrew studies & otherwise), who loves the church of Jesus Christ, the God of the Word, & all the peoples of the world, Jew, Gentile (including the Muslim), etc.

"I read this passage this morning, it is so clear there is zero explanation that really is needed."

Brother Greg...well maybe some explanation is needed for dummies like me:-) So what does that mean...that every single Jew who is not currently saved, will eventually be saved? Is that the view that Michael Brown is stating? Does ALL mean ALL?

I have no previous view on this except what I see in a plain reading of the Word. I have never looked into this topic before because it has no bearing on my own salvation, but now that this topic is raised I am curious. Does this mean what I think everyone here think it means, that ALL Jews will be saved? Is it sort of like the Calvinist view that some people have no say in the matter...they are elected and predestined to be saved even if they don't want to? So is every single Jew part of that predestined, elect group that Calvinists talk about? They will be saved even if they don't want to be saved but they have no choice in the matter because they are Jews? I am sincerely trying to understand this.

Please, please, please, please a million times please do not take my comments as combative...I am almost afraid to ask this question from fear of having my head removed (by others here) and handed back to me lol. But my questions are a genuine request for enlightenment.

Edited to add comment at the end

Good question!
And yes, those who tend to whip out a sword on this issue: please put the sword away so you don't actually do damage to the whole conversation (& to brethren, for which you will answer at the Judgement Seat). I am inclined to think that "All" either means "All" as in every single remaining (cause many will be wiped out just prior by their enemies), but leave room for the possibility that it may also mean "the great sweeping majority of". And the fact is, it is a sovereign action of God just like the tremendous move & revival of Muslims coming to Christ in the Middle East right now as He reveals Himself personally to them in dreams & visions (just like he did Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus). You are asking an excellent question. The fact is that if God says something will be, how EXACTLY all of that looks & plays out along the way can be difficult & murky (if not impossible to be 100% perfectly accurate looking into the future still by prophecy, but easier to identify & explain accurately as it happens or just after in the rear view mirror). I'll bet brothers like Doc, Art Katz, Michael Brown, Reggie Kelley, Joel Richardson, JC Ryle, Spurgeon, Horatiuos Bonar & others have more thorough insight/thoughts, but this is the simple $.10 laymen understanding & explanation as I can see it. 😊
God Bless,
Jeff

And was it "fair" that Jesus actually showed himself to the Apostle Paul, knocked him down, blinded him, spoke audibly in the clouds, etc.? A good rhetorical question for those with the "but it's not fair...it MUST be by faith without seeing..." Position/argument.

Mark

God is an equal opportunity saviour. He is simply going to reveal himself fully to the descendants of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac without hindrance through Jesus Christ in the near future. The people and nation of Israel will see and understand who he is, unencumbered. by unbelieving religion and tradition. The veil will be fully removed by the Holy Spirit and many, many of them will respond to the invitation and salvation of the Lord.

Even in these days an ever increasing number, disproportionate to historical numbers are coming to saving faith in their Messiah. (Except for the first century church)

Zech 12 10: 14

10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

11 In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo.

12 The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves;

13 the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves;

14 all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves\\

Romans 11 25-27

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery””so that you will not be wise in your own estimation””that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”

27 "This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

Israel Is Not Cast Away

Romans 11 1-5
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, [a]a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3 "Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.”
4 But what is the divine response to him? "I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.

Notice that scripture says in verse 5 "at the present time a remnant" (of the Jews are saved)
That time is now over being almost 2000 years ago. Today the fulfillment is already starting to occur and and no demon in hell or armchair religionist can stop the plan of Israel's God regarding the salvation of the Jew. The in-grafting of them has begun in earnest. The vine of the Lord will be completed and all Israel will be saved.

Thank you all for your replies, it is helpful to know what others believe. I personally put this in the same basket as all the other things I do not fully understand. Meaning that I simply cannot conclude that EVERY last Jew who is remaining at the end will be saved. Not saying they ALL won't and I am not saying they ALL will. Just saying I do not know.

Todd, I appreciate your comment and that so many are exercising such commendable self-control...it is a fruit of the Spirit you know:-) But I don't need to bite my tongue because I don't have a position, I am just intrigued as to what others believe and my question actually was for brother Greg, so I am hoping he will respond.

My position on other things is clear, as in that I do not believe the same as Calvinists - that a persons salvation is predetermined and cannot be changed. I do believe in free will so I am trying to get my head around how someone like me who believes in free will might also believe that every surviving Jew does not have a choice in the matter but will be saved because they are a Jew?

So anyway, I am glad that you are all being civil, and to be clear I love you all and do not mind if you disagree with me on any of these issues that are not essential to salvation. May we continue to walk in love and respect for one another.

Well, God's sovereign election doesn't have to be reduced to "had no choice against their will in the matter" type defining. Did Saul of Tarsus "have no choice against his will" or did God in Christ just soveriegnly elect Him into Paul the apostle through miraculous (& preordained) events that caused Paul's "will" to change? 😊

And as someone said, I think the final eschatological "in gathering" of Jews to the Messiah is kinda already in the "initial" pre-stages. There are more Muslims coming to Christ NOW than ever in Islamic history. There are more Jews coming to Christ IN NUMBERS than ever before in history (& even percentages only comparable in the first century early church). I am SO EXCITED as I see these things beginning to be coming to pass as I know the "Last Things" are on the prophetic horizon which means the Return of our Lord is near!

For those unaware of the in gathering of Jews to Christ, the ministry of "One For Israel" is a dynamic ministry in Israel evangelizing Jews by Jews & also incorporating the ministry of Arabs & ex-Muslims. You can watch HUNDREDS of Jewish personal conversion testimonies to Christ on their YouTube channel under the "I met Messiah" & "I found Shalom" headings. There are as many diverse testimonies as any other people group would have, but I think it is good listening to them in their own words how they perceived & understood "Christianity" before Christ (from the historical experiences of their ancestry), & how they each came to the Lord. I am so encouraged by it!

Here is a link to the YouTube channel to watch & listen to as many as you like. I watched almost all of them with my family & was/am greatly encouraged by what the Lord is doing in the Middle East at this time among Jews & Muslim Arabs!

https://youtu.be/FJZYporTxBI

Very good ministry Jeff, The testimony by Mottel Baleston has been viewed about 10 million times apparently. A large percentage of them Jews.

TMK,
Let's look at the covenant in question here which is The Abrahmic Covenant. Not the Mosaic or Davidic, but focus on the Abrahamic covenant. It's also referenced in the NT, is always referred to as "the EVERLASTING covenant", etc. And is the covenant received by faith & the one we are in a sense (by type) grafted into as Gentiles as we believe God (the Gospel) by faith also, as is clear throughout the NT. As you read the initial call of Abraham in Genesis 12 & the through to the first covenant in Genesis 15 where GOD Himself Puts Abraham asleep and GOD ALONE "walks" between the cut in two bleeding animals on the "table of covenant" to say in a sense "if I don't keep my end of this covenant, may I be cut in two like these dead animals". And not only that, but God put Abraham asleep & God Alone walked through the covenantal table for both ends of the covenant. Abraham never even did. God was (in type) saying, I will keep my end, & by the power of my righteous right hand, I'll keep your end too (can anyone keep any promise or covenant without the Lord's Power? Of course not). There is never one single "if" in all of the text there. God keeps His everlasting covenant. You won't find an "If" anywhere there. I just looked again. God was saying He would keep it Himslef for His own Name's sake no matter what. He is able & He is faithful.
Then, in Genesis 17, God appears to Abraham again & speaks another covenant before Abraham. He never puts Abraham asleep, & the common understanding of the text & the common covenantal understanding of the era was that Abraham would have made the covenantal table, spread out the table of covenant of dead animals split in two, walked through the blood in the middle, splashing up on the hemn of his robe, as to say, "if I don't keep my end of this covenant, may I die & bleed out like these animals". God starts out discussing HIS END of the "Everlasting Covenant" (the land as "and EVERLASTING possession", etc.) & then God details Abrahams part: circumcision. Now in the NT we see that circumcision of the flesh was no longer required (our part) but circumcision of the heart by faith (symbolic of justification followed by sanctification), but I don't see any text anywhere in the NT where God's promises of this "EVERLASTING COVENANT" are repealed. Ever. Anywhere. Also, it is worth noting that there also NO "IF"s found anywhere there in Genesis 17. God's promises & provisions in the Abrahamic Covenant are received by faith, irrevocable, unconditional (once entered upon TRULY by faith & through Blood, now namely the Blood of Jesus), etc. Of course we still have things to do on our part, but "He remains faithful, even when we are faithless". Thank God! It's for His name's sake, His reputation as a covenant keeping God, & the things so amazing in His Gospe plan for a rebellious mankind, that "even the Angels long to look into these things".
So, when you speak of "IF"s, as in "conditions" of covenant, you are not referring in context to the Abrahamic Covenant, but most likely the Mosaic covenant. The Law. And yes, it was conditional, no one could keep it perfectly, & it was the schoolmaster to bring us to see our need for Christ the perfect Lamb of God which was the covenant by faith in which God always keeps His promises, even when we fail, fall, stumble, etc.
I'm sure others can offer even better/more to the discussion, but I know understanding covenant in the ancient Way it was spoken, carried out & understood by its original audience is important. It's more than just a "contract" as we would see it. And God always keeps HIS covenant promises He gave to Abraham & His descendants after him. Always. He always referred to His end of keeping the covenants to Abraham as "EVERLASTING" (literally forever, non-ending), but never makes such specific statements to anything on our end, nor to Moses concerning the Law (the conditional Mosaic covenant). Not that I see when reading the text. Again, I don't understand everything, but I don't see a single "IF" in al of the Abrahamic Covenant in scripture in Genesis 12-19. I only see unconditional language on God's part, see the Hebraic picture of it in God putting Abraham to sleep & coming down & walking through the covenant HIMSELF alone, & see the word "EVERLASTING" repeatedly when God is referring to His part of keeping the covenant.
God Bless,
Jeff

And all that aside, Romans 11:26 (the quintessential NT text that's the crux heart nature of the OP, even if you "allegorize" away all the OT covenantal promises & prophecies of the Day of The Lord, etc.) has no "IF"s in it whatsoever. Romans 11:26 is pretty plainly spoken, with no IF's & lines up with the OT prophetic texts, Abrahamic Covenantal language, etc.

I think it was actually a rhetorical question for Moses to test his heart & show intercession standing in the gap. God in the OT & Jesus in the NT often asked such rhetorical questions to test the hearts of men & make a point.

by TMK on 2016/5/12 14:54:19

David-

1) Who were the promisees of the Abrahamic covenant?

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

by Julius21 on 2016/5/12 15:46:06

by TMK on 2016/5/12 14:54:19

David-

1) Who were the promisees of the Abrahamic covenant?

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gen 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy SEED will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

docs
This is far too "theological" for me and probably for many others as well.
Can you just clarify and give as your view in simple terms.
Do you believe that God will one day give the land to Abraham and his seed as it is written in the Bible or is this to be understood in a "typological" sense ?

This sounds a bit too complex for me, maybe the Bereans would simply have said: "it is written..."
Several times it is written in genesis that God will give the land to Abraham and his descendants (seed)
But Abraham never possessed any of that land. When his wife died he had to buy land so he could bury her.(Gen 23)

Who are the children of Abraham

In my opinion everyone who lives by faith in God is the child of Abraham.

Gatatians 3:6-8
6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Romans 4:11-13
11. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also,
12. And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Faith in God was before circumcision. Both in the OT and the NT those who have faith are the people of God or with other words Israel. In Romans 9:7 the word Israel is used in to different meanings:
1. Those who are the physical descendants of Abraham
2. Those who have the faith of Abraham. The word of God says that those who have the faith of Abraham are the true Israel.

Romans 9:6-8

6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So when the Bible says "all Israel will be saved" which of the above 2 meaning was used? Based on the quoted verses I believe "all Israel" means those who have the faith of Abraham.

Zsuzsanna

The only problem with that "re-interpretation" is that pesky immediate context of chapter 11 from which verse 11:26 actually flows. Try reading chapter 11 substituting every time it says "Israel" with "spiritual Israel of God" & you will quickly see the unintelligible gobbly gook you come out with make that over-simplification (actually non-contextual over allegorization to be more accurate) an illogical impossibility. But if you don't want to do that or see the text plainly in that way, then you will "stay the course" I guess. That's been most of my experience at least. It is pretty simply understood when read in context.

Paul - "My fellow countrymen in the flesh"??? That's pretty clear

And I believe only those who are children of Abraham by faith in Christ will ultimately part of the "Israel of God" or "spiritual Israel", don't get me wrong. But the Lord is not just speaking of that in Romans 11:26 & the surrounding context. He is speaking of a great move of God by which many/most/all (that's debatable) of the physical sons of Abraham will come into the Kingdom & become "children of Abraham by faith". I'm not arguing that. No one gets in without faith in the Son of God! But 11:26 is pretty clear. Why people fight that so stubbornly is beyond me really. Maybe with good intent, but horrible Biblical interpretative hermeneutics. No offense.

by Tozsu on 2016/5/13 12:52:05

Who are the children of Abraham

In my opinion everyone who lives by faith in God is the child of Abraham.

Gatatians 3:6-8
6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Romans 4:11-13
11. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also,
12. And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Faith in God was before circumcision. Both in the OT and the NT those who have faith are the people of God or with other words Israel. In Romans 9:7 the word Israel is used in to different meanings:
1. Those who are the physical descendants of Abraham
2. Those who have the faith of Abraham. The word of God says that those who have the faith of Abraham are the true Israel.

Romans 9:6-8

6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So when the Bible says "all Israel will be saved" which of the above 2 meaning was used? Based on the quoted verses I believe "all Israel" means those who have the faith of Abraham.

Zsuzsanna

Amen! What else could "ALL Israel" mean except ALL those who have the faith of Abraham?

And what is the "Faith of Abraham"?

"And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. (Rom 4:21-22) But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." (Rom 4:24-25).

If it is complicated, intricate and difficult to understand...2 Cor 11:3.

by docs on 2016/5/13 13:45:29

26 "and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written..."

"and thus all the church that is saved will be saved."

???

You are skipping a step, docs. You can't be part of the church without having the faith of Abraham.

try this:

And thus all those who have the faith of Abraham will be saved. (For no others will be saved).

Because only true Israel has the faith of Abraham.

Gatatians 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

There are 2 Israels:
1) Physical descendants
2) Those who have the faith of Abraham

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

by docs on 2016/5/13 13:59:36

/You are skipping a step, docs. You can't be part of the church without having the faith of Abraham./

Who let you in on that secret? I declare good bro! Who would have ever thought it!

/There are 2 Israels:
1) Physical descendants
2) Those who have the faith of Abraham/

Are those of Israel who have the faith of Abraham still physical descendants of Abraham?

Those who have the "faith of Abraham" are from every nation, kindred and tongue.

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. (Gal 4:28) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:29) Which were born, NOT OF BLOOD, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:13)

Racial, religious, ethnic lines do not make one a child of God.

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." (Gal 3:26)

Doc, if you believe these, what are the scriptures that prove that biblical promises are made to the todays nation of Israel?
In my understanding the promises to Abrahams seed are made to those who believe in Jesus before his second coming.
The kingdom of God is now. Everyone is invited. Why can't they come now? What if they die by the time Jesus comes back? Isn't it safer to accept him now?
I do not know any scriptures that say when he comes back he makes a lot of new converts. Rather when he came (first time) he made a lot of converts with whom he reigns now in his kingdom.

Zsuzsanna

Neil posted:

"Why I’m Sure Israel Will Be Saved"-Dr Michael Brown\t
presented without comment:

http://askdrbrown.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Why-Im-Sure-Israel-Will-Be-Saved-A-Message-of-Faith.mp3

Good and sound biblical understanding here.
Thanks for posting the truth about Israel Neil.

by Tozsu on 2016/5/13 15:22:27

Doc, if you believe these, what are the scriptures that prove that biblical promises are made to the todays nation of Israel?

In my understanding the promises to Abrahams seed are made to those who believe in Jesus before his second coming.

The kingdom of God is now. Everyone is invited. Why can't they come now? What if they die by the time Jesus comes back? Isn't it safer to accept him now?

I do not know any scriptures that say when he comes back he makes a lot of new converts. Rather when he came (first time) he made a lot of converts with whom he reigns now in his kingdom.

Zsuzsanna

Excellent question, Zsuzsanna.

So true bro NDY. God is restoring Israel as Bro Brown and Neil posted.

The New Testament basis for the restoration of Israel

By Jan Willem van der Hoeven

Jesus was asked by His disciples whether He would restore the kingdom to Israel at that time, to which He replied:

Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” (Acts 1:6-8)
Jesus’ answer implied that although the time of favor for Israel was at that moment to pass over to the Gentiles, there would be a time when God would restore again the "Kingdom to Israel”. This truth is clearly taught throughout the Scriptures: after the fullness of the Gentiles is brought into the kingdom of God, He will again give His ancient people, the Jews, another time of grace and favor.

There are a number of verses in the New Testament which further spell out this principle. Peter, speaking to the Jews, said:

And He shall send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:20-21)
Later, in the book of Acts, James says:

Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written: ‘After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up.’ (Acts 15:14-16)

It is quite clear from these verses that before "restoring the kingdom to Israel” and building "again the tabernacle of David,” God would turn in grace to the Gentiles and call out of them a people unto His name. After this God promises to return and build again the tabernacle of David.

This agrees with two other passages which state that when the fullness of the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, Jerusalem will again be restored to Jewish sovereignty.

… Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21:24)

In Romans Paul states:

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. (Romans 11:25-26)

Here the same point is stressed: the completion of God’s purposes with the Gentiles marks the beginning of His renewed grace to the people of Israel. After the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled, after the fullness of the Gentiles has come into the kingdom, then ALL ISRAEL will be saved, the "times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord”. (Acts 3:19)

This agrees with the many Old Testament passages which clearly refer to an eternal purpose of God for His ancient people ”“ eternal promises that will be fulfilled to them, not just in a temporary way as if they were only God’s example from ancient times for the "Church Age,” but fulfilled practically, literally and completely.

Paul, in his fundamental chapters 9, 10 and 11 of the Epistle to the Romans, teaches these same principles concerning the Jewish people:

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! (Romans 11:1)

It is obviously the plan of God to receive them back in mercy:

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29)

There are many Old Testament prophecies which have not yet had their fulfillment, and cannot in all honesty be explained away as having been spiritually fulfilled through the first coming of Christ. The New Testament also makes clear reference to prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled. Only in the light of these New Testament verses do the, as yet unfulfilled, Old Testament prophecies make sense. For example, it was spoken by Simeon at the birth of Jesus:

For my eyes have seen Your salvation which You have prepared before the face of all peoples, a light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of Your people Israel … Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel … (Luke 2: 30-34)
It should be evident from these verses that Jesus would be first a light to the Gentiles and cause the fall of many of His own people, but afterwards He would become the glory of Israel and cause the rising again of many in Israel. Such New Testament promises underline that all the glory God has promised through the prophets for Israel in the latter days will indeed be revealed:

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat. (Isaiah 11:6)
The people shall beat their swords into plowshares. (Isaiah 2:4)
The nations shall come up to Jerusalem to learn the ways of the Lord. (Isaiah 2:3)
The Lord will be King in Jerusalem and reign on His holy hill where He desires to dwell forever. (Psalms 2:6)
Israel will be back in her land that God promised to her as en everlasting possession. (Isaiah 11:10-12)
Righteousness and peace will flow like a mighty river from Jerusalem and cover the earth like the seas. (Isaiah 11:9)
The Lord will become the glory of His people Israel. (Luke 2:32)
There are but a few of the prophecies which have not yet been fulfilled but are promised by God. As Jesus said:

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matthew 5:17-18)
This emphasizes that everything the prophets foretold will be fulfilled, not just convenient portions of it. Jesus Himself states that He will see to it that all the prophecies will come to pass before any of God’s word is removed. This includes those prophecies which were not fulfilled by Jesus’ first coming.

It therefore is right, in the light of these clear New Testament passages, to expect a literal fulfillment of all that has been promised through Israel’s prophets concerning her future.

Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! … For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? (Romans 11: 12, 15)
What a wonderful time in which to live!

Recognizing this truth brings the apostle Paul to great joy. We Gentiles ought also to share in that joy, for in Christ we are allowed to inherit with Israel all these biblical promises which are yet to be fulfilled.

For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. (2 Corinthians 1:20)

Not for nothing did Christ teach us to pray: Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

It is difficult to see how the first coming of Christ could have fulfilled all of the promises which have clearly been made by God. The prophets foretold that there would be a day on earth, under the reign of the Messiah in Jerusalem with His nation when:

All wars would cease.
Each man would live "under his fig tree” in equality and justice.
The child would play with the viper so that there would be harmony between mankind and the animal world (no more killing of whales).
Nature would be fully restored: the trees would "clap their hands” and the Dead Sea would become a sweet water lake.
The Jewish people know that these are to be the fruits of the coming of the Messiah, and so find it difficult to believe that He has already come since these things as yet have not been fulfilled. We believe with Paul that the Messiah has come once; and we join him in rejoicing at the restoration of Israel, for we know that it signals the return of the Messiah and the fulfillment of all the prophecies:

For the Lord shall build up Zion; He shall appear in His glory. (Psalms 102:16)
For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

"For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor? Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him?” For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:32-36)
Jan Willem van der Hoeven, Director
International Christian Zionist Center

Just a bit of caution here J and Tozsu
The promises were made to Abraham AND his seed.
Imo ultimately there will be One kingdom with OT and NT believers and One who is King of Kings, Jesus Christ

"One Olive tree" as we read in another excellent thread

"The kingdom of God is now"
We need to explain what we mean when we say that, for clarity, so we all have the same "definition"
There will be a Kingdom to come , the " Millenium ", when Jesus will reign for 1000 years.
During that Kingdom satan will be bound for 1000 years.This hasn't started yet, may it come soon !!

The OT promises were about the coming messiah so in the OT they believed his future coming, in the NT they believe that he came in the flesh and he is Jesus the son of God. These people all had the same kind of faith that Abraham had.

Kingdom is now:

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Colossians 1:13

The kingdom of God is in the midst of us, we are kingly priesthood, we are seated in heavenly places, Christ is our king, seated at the right hand of the Father, the kingdom of God came because Jesus and the disciples can cast out demons since the strong man is bound. The kingdom is here and keeps growing like a tree from a mustardseed until it fills the earth.

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

This already happened, the other sheep are the gentiles and now there is one fold and one pastor.

Zsuzsanna

Sorry, I made a double post. I deleted this one.

by docs on 2016/5/13 23:20:21

/As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race./

So all who have faith in Christ become Jews when they are saved?

But yet we're told there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ.

???

Where did that quote come from? I must have missed it. Oh, you are quoting yourself.

Doc, what is your take on these verses? What do they mean to you?

Romans 2:28-29

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Do you not understand what Paul is saying when he says "there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ?"

Read the context of Gal 3:28 and you will understand.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

Julius,
Do you not understand that "there is neither male nor female" doesn't mean there are no distinctions at all between women & men? Seems like you get told the same things, disappear on them, then "come back around" again as if it's "all new" & you never heard of it before, no one ever explained it, or you don't know what one thinks on something? What/why is that?

Women & Men ARE DIFFERENT! Plain & simple. In fact, MUCH of scripture goes to GREAT length to explain the differing roles of women & men because they are not the same. Women are not permitted in scripture to teach or have authority over a man. And if we have to go back to Leviticus to make this obvious, men aren't to wear women's clothes & vice versa. So "there's now therefore no distinction between man & woman, Jew not Greek,....all are one in Christ" MUST mean something different than there's ABSOLUTELY NO DISTINCTIONS/DIFFERENCES AT ALL. Otherwise, your wife (assuming your married?) can teach & lead your fellowship now (cause after all, there's neither male nor female, but all are one in Christ) & you can wear her dress on Sunday (after all THERES NO DISTINCTION), etc. Or maybe you don't ascribe the right interpretive & scripturally contextual wholisticly accurate definition of what Paul is & isn't saying?

Jesus said to "HATE YOUR MOTHER & FATHER" or you can't be His disciple. Do you HATE YOUR PARENTS Julius?

It is OBVIOUS on "neither Male, nor Female, Jew, nor Gentile, but all are one in Christ" that Paul is talking about IN VALUE. WORTH. Just like male & female. But that doesn't mean God is BLIND to ethnicity now or that He CANT have a special prophesied revival coming at the end among the Jews. All are EQUAL IN VALUE, but not necessarily in every ROLE/Function. Just like male & female. Why can't you see what is so plain there? Seriously? If you use that hermeneutic for "Neither Jew nor Greek" to mean in role/function/calling, then you have to use it for what is in the very same sentence "Neither Male, Nor Female" & you know that's not true. Men are given certain primarily callings in the Church & Women others (& there are some crossover responsibilities/callings too). If not, let your wife teach your fellowship, let her lead you & your kids, etc. But you'll have to ignore/disregard tons of other scripture that can't be reconciled with that & I think you know that.
God Bless,
Jeff

The context of Galatians 3, is very simple too understand, Jeff.

I agree. So either read in a consistent, parallel, hermeneutically responsible way, or tell your wife she can now feel free to Lead your fellowship & your family, since there's "no male Nor female...all are one in Christ." It's actually really that simple.

think about this; where is there any profit or edification in "discussing", which is really just circular arguing with a man such as Julius?

and I find it absolutely the nadir of the fleshling to take my OP, and to divert into BACK into a yet another "argument" over "what is Israel"...or WHO is of Israel.

think of this, the poster in question, when asked for a personal testimony, didn't "get real", they wrote a very bizarre boilerplate testimony in 17th century style English, and concluded with one sentence, indicating that he wouldn't be testifying of personal matters.

and you know what?....that is absolutely legitimate, especially in light that this is a very public, very global social media forum. BUT considering that Julius wreaks so much havoc and dissent on this forum, wouldn't it better that he be totally open, honest and authentic about his own walk with Messiah, and how he came to his understanding of This Most Holy Faith?

but he didn't, and that, to me ,is a very clear warning sign, that WORDS wrote on a forum, may not be "as advertised"....remember the devil LOVES to masquerade as an angel of light,and with Christendom has many many "servants" doing his biding.....and I will tell you this....satan would love to see every Jew killed, murdered and their bones ground into dust...remember the first "institutional church" was formed in Rome, still exists today, with its popery, idolatry. MARY idolatry, priest craft, superstitions.....and let us not forget to this VERY DAY, how many BILLIONS of dollars have been paid out to those CHILDREN who have suffered and been sexually molested by the many predatory pedophile "priests of rome", while the roman institution shuffles these hell bound wicked monsters from parish to parish? Let us not forget the very first "nation state", the "Vatican" was the first to recognize the hitlerite regime in Germany....and to this very day, serve as repository for wealth that the hitlerites stole from soon to be murdered European Jews....try and do an audit of the "Vatican;s vaults"....good luck.

why did I bring this all up?...much of what Julius blithers on about, "in doctrine" was forged when Rome was the "only game in town"....you should read what some of the early church "fathers" wrote about the Jews.....that's why Mike Brown's "OUR Hands are stained with Blood", is such a crucial read....Mike did NOT entitle the book, "YOUR Hands...", he wrote "OUR hands..."

But what some of these early church "fathers' wrote about the Jews?....absolute hateful rhetoric...shameful.

I don't want to burn my morning up, countering this wicked behavior from this poster....I knew it was only a matter of time before he inserted his 'opinions' to divert the onus of this thread which I OP'ed....but he has termed Mike Brown as a "Hebrew Roots" adherent, which is just a lie, in fact these days, Mike Brown is speaking very loud and clear, yet gracefully about this whole "LGBT" thing that is being foisted upon the nations polity, and getting more heat on it, than you can even imagine. His exhortations on Israel and the Jewish people comprise a VERY small part of his public ministry.

and brother Jeff, look below at that one line Julius wrote to you about Galatians 3.....a little patronizing, but that aside, what did Paul mean in this portion of 1st Corinthians 9?

"For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.

To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.

To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.

I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings." 1 Cor 9:19-23 (ESV)

Brother Jeff, I have not the time to even go into what he and others say about the Israel today, as dawn is breaking, and as a 2 finger typist, I have chores, and I think it just shamefully wicked how this man, with his "smooth" words, hijacking this thread.

Julius...God is watching, do you not fear Him?

Best repent, the Judgment Seat will be a mighty rough time for all of us, some more than others...wake up, before its too late.

In reference to those "early church fathers" and their statements against the Jews, Julius said some month or so ago, "oh yes, Jeff, I will surely get that book & read it & let you know what I think" of Joel Richardson's "When A Jew Rules the World" which goes through all of the history, quotes & writings, etc. Julius, did you ever do that (not that you have to, but you are the one who said you would)?

Jeff said:

"And I believe only those who are children of Abraham by faith in Christ will ultimately be part of the "Israel of God" or "spiritual Israel", don't get me wrong. But the Lord is not just speaking of that in Romans 11:26 & the surrounding context. He is speaking of a great move of God by which many/most/all (that's debatable) of the physical sons of Abraham will come into the Kingdom & become "children of Abraham by faith". I'm not arguing that. No one gets in without faith in the Son of God! But 11:26 is pretty clear. Why people fight that so stubbornly is beyond me really. Maybe with good intent, but horrible Biblical interpretative hermeneutics. No offense."

This opinion is completely understandable and logical for those who hold the futurist view, and mostly agreeable by holders of other views.
I agree with the statement except the word "will" (as in "...will come into the Kingdom"). Instead of "will" I would put in "have". From these verses (Romans 11) I do not see a future tense (i.e. future for us) proven for these events.

http://www.truthmagazine.com/archives/volume41/GOT041050.html

Here is a link to an article that represents an other view of the same scriptures for the readers to consider.

God bless you,
Zsuzsanna

Edited for editions at the end:

But at no point in history could we say "all Israel WAS/HAVE BEEN saved". Never. Not even a "most/majority" by any stretch, much less anything we might could say fits "ALL Israel WILL be saved". So, if this is clearly in context speaking of "ALL" actual physical/national Israel "WILL BE SAVED" & that's still NEVER happened, then it must by necessity be "futuristic". That's the only way it makes any sense at all.

Not only that, but if you Change "WILL be saved" to "HAVE been saved", then that's saying all that are going to be saved already have? Which makes even less sense in the reading of the text & the present reality that people "ARE STILL" coming to Christ today, & tomorrow, and beyond. It's simpler than the "trying to force a square peg in a round hole" interpretive hermeneutic paradigm some try to force feed it to fit their predetermined suppositional arguments. It's clearly futuristic. That's the only way it can be read in full context considering all scriptures & reality & make sense consistently throughout with reconciliation of all passages.

Romans 11
The verses 1-5 show that God always had a remnant of the physical Israel that he considered his people (his Israel), and he did never cast them away. These are referred as the people of election.
It is not clear to me whether the election obtained the faith in Jesus and the rest of the physical Jews were hardened or part of the election obtained the faith and the rest of the election were hardened.
I believe this passage talks about a certain time frame: 30 - 70 AD. Since this was the time given as a transition from OT to NT. I believe because of His faithfulness God took care of the faith of all those Jews whose heart was truly seeking him but not yet came to the realization that the Messiah has come. By the destruction of the temple God made it clear to the Jews that he desires to save them not through the OT system but through Jesus. I think a sincere jew loosing all his religion suddenly realized the truth about Jesus. I think this was the great move of God (that you mentioned) that saved Israel, but not a future event, only future to Paul. I think the jews were given a choice: stick to the old religion that has just fallen or trust God to lead them to the new which is - now they can joyfully realize - the fullfillment of the old. It is not clear to me who was and was not a physical/spiritual Israel that time, but God knows. I think the changes and tragedies that time did not leave any individual untouched, and God dealt with them personally. The whole physical Israel was effected: many have died, many lost their system of religion, and many accepted Christ. I believe that those who accepted Christ were the remnant.
So I think there was a time in history when the whole Israel (those who were currently alive) was saved.
My opinion.
Zsuzsanna

Edited to correct error:
While I respect that's your opinion, I think that's frankly not a consistent view to reconcile all of the chapter (and all of other supporting scripture/prophecy). A partial hardening, what came on Israel in 30 AD (33), & then you think "the fullness of the Gentiles came in" by 70 AD? And then "ALL ISRAEL" was saved in 70 AD? There are several problems with that interpretation I see.

For One, Paul speaks of a "remnant" coming in at first at that time & The book of Romans Was written in 57-58 AD. And the fact is, that although most scholars either date the events of Acts in 33-34 AD (just do the calendar math), it wasn't written until either 70 AD or some point in the 70's or 80's AD - scholarly dispute on this.

Anyways, Romans was written about 24 years AFTER Pentacost. The most of the "remnant" came in early & most of the rest of "Israel" was still in state of rejection of Christ when the Romans (actually the Syrians & other surrounding Arabs mostly as hired mercenary extensions of the Roman empires Far East expansion - but that's another subject altogether). And the "remnant" was already scattered & scattering. But AT NO POINT in any of this was there ANYTHING remotely resembling "ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED". Not "ALL" as in total, not a majority, not most as in more than half, period.

So since in context of Romans 11:26 where he says "ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED" Paul is CLEARLY speaking of "Paul's fellow countrymen in the flesh" & "ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED" was never a realized reality, 70 AD was in no way the closing culmination prophetic fulfillment of this. And "the fullness of the Gentiles coming in" has never happened either. There are still massive numbers of whole people groups who have never heard the Gospel to the ends of the earth, much less in 70 AD was that any kind of remote possibility at all. "The fullness of the Gentiles coming in" (that happens BEFORE "ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED" is still happening right now before our eyes, & even the "great nation" of Ishmael's descendants God spoke to Hagar about is in process (the largest worldwide revival period right now among Muslim Arabs). And FYI - the word for "great" God used in that prophecy isn't the word typically used for in number/multitudes. It's often used in scripture to say "our God is great", etc. referring to quality/dimension, not quantity/multitude.

For these and MANY other reasons (like TONS of the OT Prophets' words), I say the end times eschatological prophecies are beginning to be fulfilled before our eyes & just on the horizon for more to come as things are falling into place! And rejoice, for this means the Day of the Lord is close at Hand! Pray for the Lord of the Harvest to send workers & pray about whether the Lord wants to send you into these ripe fields. I am praying about these very things for me & my family right now! I am praying & interceding & sowing into it, but praying whether the Lord would have me/us GO while the fields are white into harvest in the 10/40 as never before in the last 2,000 years!
God Bless,
Jeff

Thanks Jeff, I enjoyed the conversation, even if we do not agree.
Romans 11 can describe circumtances just before and prophetically after the time it was written.
If I understand right "all Israel will be saved" refers to all the people of God (physical or spiritual) who are alive at a point of time. I believe this point of time was when the generation that was born into a still intact OT system was alive, but experienced the transition to NT. This was also the time when the foundation of the church was built, and the gospel spread rapidly. I do not see why would God pick an other time than this to save all Israel. Why would he give a privilege of being saved so radically and fully to any other generation. What would be the basis of selecting certain generation to be saved over others. Remember, those who will not be alive at the proposed future great move of God will not benefit at all.

Zsuzsanna

There are several theories how to understand this expression. One of them is in the article I referred to. The meaning of this expression is not 100% clear. There is a possibility that it can mean something else than what the majority of christians today think.
Zsuzsanna

I enjoy the conversation too, but I actually do personally think (as did Spurgeon, JC Ryle, Bonar, Bunyan, & others) that it is actually pretty clear in the context. I think who he is speaking of is cleared up in the 1st half of chapter 11 just prior.

Why would He soveriegnly choose? Because He is God & those choices belong to He & He alone. Why did He choose me? Not because "it made sense", but it was part of His divine sovereign plan. Why did He choose Israel out from among the nations of the earth in the first place? Because it was part of His plan. Why did He choose to allow Nebachadnezzer to rule, & then the successive kingdoms after that? Because He is God & all Wisdom belongs to He alone. I can hear His rhetorical questions in response to Job in my mind at this point, can you? Why did He even make a promise to Hagar concerning Ishmael? And why will He allow the Antichrist to rise (or did He even if you take the Preteristic/Historic point of view) at all? Because He is God & we are not. Why did He say "Jacob I have loved & Esau I hated"? And why will He soveriegnly move that "All Israel WILL be saved", because He's God, He's Soveriegn, & His Ways are not our ways. I'm sure others can contribute more as well, but that's the heart of the matter in answering your question.

The only problem with applying that here TMK is the rest of Romans 11

The Remnant of Israel

1I ask, then, xhas God rejected his people? By no means! For xI myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2xGod has not rejected his people whom he xforeknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3x"Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4But what is God's reply to him? x"I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5So too at the present time there is xa remnant, chosen by grace. 6xBut if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7What then? xIsrael failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest xwere hardened, 8as it is written,
x"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
xeyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”
9And David says,
x"Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10
let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”

Gentiles Grafted In

11So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass xsalvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

13Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as xI am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and xthus save some of them. 15For if their rejection means xthe reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16xIf the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17But if xsome of the branches were broken off, and you, xalthough a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you xstand fast through faith. So xdo not become proud, but xstand in awe. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, xprovided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise xyou too will be cut off. 23And xeven they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

The Mystery of Israel's Salvation

25xLest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: xa partial hardening has come upon Israel, xuntil the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
x"The Deliverer will come xfrom Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27
"and this will be my xcovenant with them
xwhen I take away their sins.”
28As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are xbeloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29For the gifts and xthe calling of God are irrevocable. 30Just as xyou were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32For God xhas consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

33Oh, the depth of the riches and xwisdom and knowledge of God! xHow unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34
"For xwho has known the mind of the Lord,
or xwho has been his counselor?”
35
"Or xwho has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
36For xfrom him and through him and to him are all things. xTo him be glory forever. Amen.

So, a partial hardening came on YOU (ISRAEL) so that Gentiles (which YOU ARE) could be brought into their fullness, so that YOU (ISRAEL) could be brought to jealousy, etc. Do you see how that makes NO SENSE? Yes, the "spiritual Israel of God" comprised of the natural & grafted in & broken off & regrafted in branches is ALL OF US together. But you have to do serious injustice to the context & reading of Romans 11 to try to apply that to every circumstance & mention of the word "Israel" in every usage in context of Romans 11. I'll take the time later to write out what you're actually saying by re-interpreting every use of natural Israel with spiritual Israel & show you how ridiculous it reads.

Is being Jewish an ethnic classification?

What ethnicity is a Russian Jew?

They are Semitic Jews that got dispersed to Russia. Everyone got dispersed at one time somewhere. The Nazis (among other past satanic "movements") made sure of this

Not sure if it's even fair to answer your questions Julius. You don't like answering others' & disappear when yours get fully answered

by docs on 2016/5/14 16:28:00

It's likely confusing to Jews when they hear Gentile Christians say that when we become saved that we all become Jews then to hear leading Gentile theologians teach that there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ therefore Jews forego their ethnic identity when they become Christians. If there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ then why is it said we all become Jews at salvation? Then after supposedly becoming Jews the very same Gentiles teach there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ.

What is everyone's interpretation of Paul's declaration in Romans 2:29?

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Jeff, it's not like I am trying to tell God which generation of Jews he should save, but when we are trying to understand from the bible what is already written there we use logic to figure out which solution (of interpreting) harmonizes most with the whole scriptures.

Zsuzsanna

Wow. Dude that can't be on accident unless you have clinical short term memory loss. And I don't think you do. I think you know what you're doing & what you're not doing (being honest, straightforward, answering others as they answer you, remembering their answers, etc.). Romans 2 is speaking differently than the beginning, middle & end of Romans 11. Which has been explained & shown to you about 10 x in 2 months. But you act as if it hasn't, disappear, & resurface to ask it again as if in total ignorance? Why is that Julius?

Edited for additions at end:

Let me ask you a question:

If we have the Gospel & Bibles & churches everywhere, but certain ethnic people groups in the world right now have NONE of that (there are whole people groups with not one faithful Christian witness among them that are 100% Muslim), & they die without Christ or ever hearing the Gospel: is that fair? They have, they do & they will, but is it "fair"? Is God unjust?

And is it fair in the OT God called Abraham out of Chaldea, set Israel apart, & chose them among all the heathen nations around them?

Cause ultimately, once you establish its clearly speaking in context of actual/national Israel, the dilemma with many concerns their view of God's "fairness" or "partiality", which is understandable, but wrongly applied I think. Ultimately, Paul deals with God's Soveriegnty back in Romans 7 quite matter of factly that though God shows no partiality (no one gets saved apart from faith in Christ), Him saving who He will save is totally in His hands, His Wisdom & for His purposes. His character & fairness of you will is NEVER in question to me. If God had to be "fair" as I view it, He would save other people that He clearly didn't & NEVER WOULD have saved me! I don't say that in false humility or just to make my point but sincerely in truth. But it's all about Grace & God's Soveriegn election.

Edit:

I know what Jeff thinks of Romans 2:29, I am also interested in what others think who have not already answered.

Jeff, some of your posts to me are so far below the belt, I won't even dignify them with an answer.

Do you? Romans 2:29 is talking about the all encompassing "spiritual Israel of God", but we are all talking about Romans 11:26. But as usual, you Pop up, point out something no one is talking about, attempt to wreak havoc, & then silently disappear only to resurface elsewhere with the same agenda.

I know something is behind that Julius. I am quite sure of it. Let me ask you a question: how many anti-Semitic videos have you watched online? I mean all the propaganda videos about how the Jews are the cause of everything wrong in the world, how the Jews are the cause of all the wars, etc.? Just curious? Not that Indont think lost Israeli Jews are not involved in all types of sins, but just curious where you are REALLY coming from? Something seems in the many past experiences, patterns & things I believe the Lord has made very clear to me, that there's something more behind all this with you.

Would you go stand with "Hamas on Campus" & all those affiliate anti-Zionist propaganda groups & "stand against the evil Zionist regime that afflicts the earth"? I know we can all see scriptures different, grow in our understanding, be at different places, etc. but I do wonder what other influences you may have opened your heart to in reference to Israel that might possibly be skewing your view? I mean You can't answer a simple, polite, direct question, you act as if many haven't been answered before when they have, & keep coming back around in such a way I really believe there's more "behind" this than just your hermeneutical theological construct of the scriptures. I admit here & now I suspect that's the case. Just being honest.

Why do I believe that the generation of Jews that God decided to save as it is described in Romans 11 (all Israel will be saved) was the remnant of the Jews of Paul's own generation, that ended around 70 AD.
1. Paul and his audience would not be directly concerned with the fate of some generation in the distant future. The constant question in their mind must have been "What happens to those who were faithfully following the old covenant?"
2. This generation was the last one that had once a true valid old covenant with God, that I believe God wanted to honor. (Somewhat like in modern times when the law changes the observers of the old law will be honored grandfathered) God did not leave these honest people alone but lead them to Christ.
3. All Jewish generations after this did not have the real religion (with the temple, priests and Jerusalem) that God accepts. The people of these generations constantly are invited to come to Jesus's kingdom, and many has come and many are coming and going to come the same way as gentiles do.
4. Paul's generation of Jews were affected by the "hardening" while the church with the jews and gentiles in it was funded. (Think of the tremendeous persecution of the apostles by the Jews) But after the hardening is over they are saved.
5. When Paul talks about the future salvation of all Israel, it is not necessarily future to us. Everything that happened between Paul's time and our time is future to Paul but past to us.
6. Non religious Jews did not and do not make up the remnant of Israel. All Jews that practiced the religion visited Jerusalem regularly and were "notified" about the changes. (Versus some today don't even know that they are ethnic Jews.)
Zsuzsanna

Sister respectfully the gospel goes to the Jew first and also to the Gentile even now. The gospel did not stop going forward in 70 AD. But it's still going forth even in 2016. More Jews in Israel are coming to Christ now then in previous times. Jews are being saved and coming to Christ as their Messiah even now.

All of Redemptive history did not end in 70 AD when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed. All of redemptive history will culminate when Jesus Christ returns on the clouds and great power and glory.

Simpky my thoughts dear sister. Posted respectfully.

Edited for Additions:
Well, in addition to the surrounding context of Romans 11 as a whole & the OT prophecies, I'll say this:

I will say that Using your specific General interpretive hermeneutic method is how many people (like Phillip Mauro & others) said that Israel would never be gathered again in the land & your argument was the interpretive basis for it. So much so, that some (like Mauro) brought up the scriptures of Israel as past & not Future, & he specifically even said, "If Israel is ever gathered to the Land again, we have to question the credibility of the entire New Testament!" Of course, less than a decade after he died, Israel was in fact (against all odds & against all the supposed scriptural basis of all the "Historicist Prophecy Teachers" message). But men long ago buried in the scriptures & taking them at a more purely "face value" & using a "FULL COUNSEL of the Word & Prophecy" in context (men like Bunyan, Bonar, Spurgeon, Edwards, Barron, etc.) all prophesied & predicted Israel's regathering in the land. So we need to ask the question - whose interpretive hermeneutic was proven accurate & whose was proven false? The Historicists who say there is no longer any ethnic Israel at all, or the Futurists who called it just like it actually happened decades (even centuries) before it happened? That's a pretty important & relative factor to consider I think, don't you?

Yep, & to the Jew "FIRST" there is the Greek Word "Proton". As in "FIRST" in priority, not just in chronological time order - FYI.

Hi Blain, read point 3
Z

(Edit: I guess I was posting when you were, Zsuzsanna)

Very good points, Zsuzsanna.

And as you indicated in point #3 Jewish people are still today, coming into the kingdom (to realize their inheritance in Christ).

Sorry sister. Did not see point 3 when I read your post.

But then those who hold to a past historical interpretation of scripture? Are they not denying the inspiration of scripture?

My reasoning to the praeterist would be that 2nd Timothy 3:16 says that all scripture IS inspired by God not WAS inspired by God.

To those who look at prophecy as being fulfilled in 70 AD see no ongoing inspiration of scripture in this day and age. To the praeterist the Bible is reduced to nothing more than just a history book. There is no message of God to the people today.

If I may take it one step further. It would seem that those who hold to a 70 AD interpretation of prophecy deny the reality of spiritual gifts in this day and age. In essence they are what we would call cessationist. To the praeterist the Holy Spirit has no ongoing revelation to the people of God today. Everything culminated in 70 AD.

My thoughts respectfully posted.

I think you are probably right Bear in that those who believe the Lord came back in 70AD usually do believe that miracles and gifts have ceased.

I don't think our sister believes that. At least, that's not what I am getting from her posts.

Thank you, docs. I believe you.

Julius asked:

"Is being Jewish an ethnic classification?

What ethnicity is a Russian Jew?"

I've been on this forum since its inception, and I have NEVER seen a pair of questions like this asked.

i'm going to ask Julius two questions in the vain hope of getting a truthful answer.

Julius, do you know what a "khazar" is and have you ever used that word?

brethren, I will not tell you what a "khazar" is....its too painful, you are smart internet conversant people, and can find out.

this very thread would not have been on this forum say from 3 to 7 years ago. Sure, we've had replacement theologists posting, in the prior decade, but nothing like THIS, until you Julius showed up.

I see right thru you, and not by my mind or my flesh, no...I have Assistance.

for I long for two things for you, either you repent from your wickedness, or you get booted.

Dear brother Blaine,
I highly appreciate your comment. Indeed you pointed out the differences of our basic view of the Bible. Though I do not agree with the batches (such as ..preterist so.... cessationists so...) because I am not purely one or the other, I completely understand your question and concern because I used to have similar view to yours. I think this topic worth an other thread but I try to answer very shortly. I believe that the bible is inspired by God. That God gave it to us through his servants and preserved it for us to show us the way to him.
It is not a dead text but a living word, that is interpreted to us by the holy spirit.
God inspires us through his word and gives us personal answer to our problems from the word, however we should not forget to consider the primary meaning of the passages first when deriving a doctrine.
"To those who look at prophecy as being fulfilled in 70 AD see no ongoing inspiration of scripture in this day and age. To the praeterist the Bible is reduced to nothing more than just a history book. There is no message of God to the people today." For me there is message in the Bible today (I am only partial preterist) such as how to abide in Christ, how to repent, how to live righteously, how to be prepared to the second coming of Jesus that can happen any time. For one area only I do not have inspiration from the bible: How to calculate the time of his coming back etc., because I understand that it is not for us to know.

Only for the fantastical end time events do I not have inspiration from the Bible. (These are anyways interpreted very differently by the believers) Every christian believes that some prophecies were fulfilled in the first century such as those about the coming of the messiah. For the Jews who don't believe this, the end times are even more dramatic and interesting. I do not know what preterists think of the gifts of the holy spirit and miracles, but here is what I think: God is doing miracles today, and his people can operate the gifts, However I think the title of apostle goes only to those whom the bible calls apostles and they were the fundation stones of the church but we are only regular building stones. God is not doing essentially new things that are not in the bible that's why we can test certain manifestations with the bible. Not so long ago I had a hard time figure these out, but was geatly helped through the book "war on the saints" by Jessie Penn-Lewis. The bible is finished and is not being written today no addition is allowed. The word of God is the lamp unto my feet and a light on my path.
What exactly am I loosing by not believing that certain prophecies will fulfill in the future?

Neil, I do not know what khazar means so it only follows that I have never used it. I have actually never heard of it.

Thank you for asking me a direct question rather than implying evil as Jeff did in his questions. I cannot dignify his types of questions with an answer.

A little about my background if it means anything. I lived in Israel on a kibbutz for 4 months. It was a kibbutz that was north of Petah Tikva about 2 miles and 10 miles east of Tel Aviv. The way that I got to that kibbutz was via some Christians I met in Jerusalem. I was very impressed with their spirit after meeting them and before we parted company they invited me to their kibbutz. A few weeks later I took a bus from Jerusalem to Petah Tikva and a cab to Kibbutz Einat. For those who don't know what a kibbutz is, it is like a farming cooperative in Israel where goods are produced and crops are farmed and much of it is sold throughout Israel by the government and a portion is kept by the kibbutzniks. Kibbutzniks is the Nickname given to citizen Israelis and foreigners who come to work on the kibbutz are called volunteers.

I too, became a volunteer. When I linked up with my friends at the kibbutz they introduced me to about 20 other spirit filled believers. The kibbutz housed us in two man cabins and everyone worked very hard six days a week. The mission of these Christians was too lead a Christian example of love while working hard. Some worked in the cotton fields, some in the bread factory, some in the shoe factory while others worked with the chickens (60,000 raised every 3 months). I worked with the cows. They were milked 3 times a day and my shift was midnight too 8am. It was a very tough job milking 250 cows each shift even with machines. At night we would build a campfire outside of our cabins and Michael (my roommate) and an elder/prayer today at a messianic synagogue in Oklahoma would play guitar and we would worship the Lord and pray. For meal time we would all eat together with the Jewish kibbutzniks and that was a special time of day for us. All food was free, lodging was free also and we got paid about $3.00 a week.

This was in 1979 when many Russian Jews were coming to Israel. Kibbutz Einat was mostly Russian Jews which was very special to me since I was following Richard Wurmbrand very closely asst the time and had read all of his books up to that time. I remember sitting down to eat lunch next to a very elderly man and we exchanged smiles and a nod of the head as we ate our lunch. I will never forget when glancing at his arm I noticed a string of numbers. I was stunned when I realized that I was sitting next to a man that survived the death camps of Germany and how I wished I could speak Russian or Hebrew at the time just so I could say some kind words to him. My smile would have to do.

We never proselytized, we knew we were on the kibbutz as guests of Israel but we prayed a lot for our Jewish friends on the kibbutz (who took a liking to us) and for Israel as a whole. Everyone had a bomb shelter including the volunteers and we had lots of drills. I was pleasantly surprised when I first was shown the bomb shelter by other volunteers. There was an extensive library of Christian books and the other volunteers had generally made the shelter very comfortable. I found out that a bible college in the USA had been sending their students involved in ministry to the Jewish people to this kibbutz for several years and that the school, through its students had established trust and built a good reputation with this kibbutz. The people I met in Jerusalem were from this bible college. Sometimes I would take time off, take my backpack and see Israel. I think the only way too see it, is to live there for a time. I was able to go to the Golan heights, Metullah (the Good Fence), into the Sinai, Eilat, Sharm El Sheik, Jericho, Engedi, Meggido, Bethlehem, Hebron, and so much more. I worshipped: Saturdays with Christians in the new city of Jerusalem as opposed to the old city. I loved going to the garden tomb with its beautiful gardens and peaceful atmosphere. It was administered by genuine Believers. I have many stories I could tell of my time in Israel but it would take up too much space and people's time here on SI.

The Lord began working in my heart (as I was a new believer), about setting some of my life aside to study His Word. He used these other young people to influence me, they were my age and seemed very grounded in the Lord. So, I decided to go back to the states to this bible college that has a very strong record and reputation for supporting Israel. I graduated 2 years, later.

As I have said many times, my differences with other Christians is only a theological difference. I am not involved politically in the USA or any other country. I would never stand with Hamas and I don't watch anti-semitic movies. If all the animosity towards me is because I do not see in the scriptures that the present day nation of Israel has any end time biblical or prophetic significance and that I don't believe that God is going to setup a monarchy on earth, then I think those with the animosity and evil thoughts need to take a look at themselves. I am not their problem.

The Lord desires for all men to be saved.

Tozsu wrote: "What exactly am I loosing by not believing that certain prophecies will fulfill in the future? "
Good question. As believers we should know that God's plan can not and will not fail! So if we don't exactly agree in everything what does it matter, why can this topic stir up so many emotions?

I have finally listened to the message and here I have some concerns.
He only uses very few verses from the Bible, from Jeremia and Rom 11. He mainly talks about his experience in Korea etc.
There is no call to repentence and he doesn't proclaim and explain the Gospel! So how can people be saved?

What does all this mean for me? I know I'm here because Jesus died for me, he payed the ultimate price for my sins.If I want to call Him Lord I have to look to Him for directions and the plan He has for my life. His basic instructions are 2000 years old, to be a witness for Him, to "go into all the world.." His plan for me might be to be a witness in Jerusalem or Samaria etc. But I have to personally find this out by seeking Him and His will. So nobody should try and figure out what God's plan is for me and who I should support. I should be encouraged to seek the Lord personally.

On my next trip overseas I'm planing to visit several parts of the world including the ME. Then I will see a bit more what doors might open for ministries.

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Matthew 24:14 Maranatha !

My sister I thank you for your thoughtful kind response to my posts. At this point I would say that we have more in common then not in common. I would certainly agree that the cross and to abide in Christ are far more important then the discussions of Israel that have been dividibg this forum.

By the way I hope my posts we're not offensive to you. But merely raising questions of those who insist, not necessarily meaning you my sister, of a 70 AD fulfillment of prophecy.

Always appreciate your posts. God's richest blessings be upon you, dear sister.

Brother Blaine.

I have no desire to be part of this thread but I wanted to thank Julias for sharing his testimony and story. God bless you brother, what an interesting background........bro Frank

Docs said to Julius
"You recently reminded me that one must have the faith of Abraham to become part of the church and that racial, ethnic and blood lines do not make one a child of God. You seem for some reason to think that those that don't hold your view are maybe spiritual simpletons who don't even understand the most basic elements of the faith. "
Docs, I was also wondering what was your belief concerning the above, because I was under the impression that you believe that promises of God were given to those that are not children of Abraham. That's why I asked those questions...

Zsuzsanna

Julius,
Thanks for sharing some actual real life background information. That is interesting indeed. I also asked you a direct question, but maybe what is/isn't considered "anti-Semitic" in its nature/spirit/intent can be interpretational to different people, so maybe I should have asked how many "anti-Zionism", "anti-Israel", etc. videos & stuff have you watched? It's a fair question I think. I also asked you if you ever read the book you said you would that shows the history of anti-semitism even in the history of the early church fathers, "When a Jew Rules the World". I asked directly & without harshness or accusation, but you also did not answer (presumably because the answer is no & you said you would & that might show that while you say you're "open" & unbiased & just according to the scriptures, you have some very definable patterns that become obvious over time that make one at first scratch their head & later "what?" & "why?").

Anyways, I mean you no harm & apologize if my frustration worked into the previous post. Fact is, it's there because you repeatedly do the same things in a conversation (particularly anyone involving Israel &/or eschatology) which Docs highlighted quite well & graciously in one of his last posts. You don't answer others' direct questions (even when gentle, honest, sincere), & act as if others haven't described basic tenants of their beliefs while accusing them of not understanding the most basic foundations of the faith & the Gospel. Over and over and over. Why? I have no idea?

Anyways, don't let my frustration in a moment with that pattern cause you to feel as some great martyr here. I asked direct & kind questions too, but those got ignored. Anyways, interesting story. Thanks for at least sharing something personal. I honestly would really love to hear how/when you came to Christ & got Born again in the first place sometime. Love testimonies. They show the grace of God in action in our lives. Anyways, God Bless you,
Jeff

And Yes, TMK, I meant Romans 9, not 7, (I don't know why I always get those mixed up in my head? Lol. 😊). I have some thoughts on your question I will try to share later when I have time.

Thank you docs for clarifying your belief. Here is the difference: (and my views are changing slightly as this thread goes) I believe that God leads a generation of Jews to Christ rapidly and specifically because he has a covenant with them. This generation is Pauls generation, that had the old covenant in effect in their lifetime. You believe that God leads a generation of Jews to Christ rapidly and specifically because ..... why? God does not have covenant with todays nonbelieving Jews. Why would they be treated differently from any other nation?
Zsuzsanna

Docs,

You need to provide quotes. You just can't say I have animosity towards the state of Israel and not provide quotes. You may be equating my theological stance with animosity as many do. I don't believe I have criticized Israel, either but criticizing any nation does not equal animosity. No nation should be an idol. Is that animosity? Why would I have animosity towards Israel? It's not their fault that Christians made up some fantastical, unscriptural, theology.

Jeff, you are interrogating me, presuming evil. It is rude and insulting. Obviously, you already have these thoughts in your head so you will think what you want despite my answers. Your questions are akin to asking, "when was the last time you beat your wife". You are also changing my words. Your gospel presents a false hope and salvation to those after the Lord comes back. I did not say anyone was not saved. Your questions will go unanswered.

I think everyone who reads posts from certain people to me easily understand why I don't answer many of them. I answered Neil. I am expecting some feedback from him, now.

Accidental double post deleted.

(and I ask this in a soft voice)

brother, why didn't you share with me, that beautiful testimony about your time in Kibbutz Einat, many months ago?

Do you know how that has blessed my soul? How that has softened my heart towards you?....how that has made ME repent for any untoward and unloving verbiage canted your way?

so in all humility, I ask your forgiveness for my intemperate postings to you.

"theological differences" I can deal with, as I rarely engage in arguing over that "ism" or this 'ism.

But, I never hesitate for one millisecond, to ask for forgiveness, when I have wronged a brother or sister. never ANY hesitation to abase myself, Praise be to the Living God and Messiah that He has burned out ALL pride in my soul, and that I take the words, that I esteem all others above myself, as a default setting in the Word..

In 1979, when you were in Israel, I was 30 miles south of the DMZ in Korea, as a 19 year old Korean linguist/intelligence analyst monitoring the communist north Koreans. "19 years old?!?" you might ask. Well Julius, the prior ten years of my life, I had given to the study of warfighting, geopolitics, etc...I was a bit precocious, shall we say, so that when the US Navy tested a 17 year old, it became apparent to them, I was a bit more sophisticated in the "art" of intelligence gathering, and at 19, while on station, when my watch was done, I would spend an extra 3 hours reading those large yellow rolls of TS/codeword reports and dispatches from around the world, so I could gain "context" to the totality of what I regarded as the defense of America, so I could SERVE better to be one more operator to help defend America. My superiors were telling me, as I uncovered "this or that" in those days of my youth, that if I continued on this path, I would probably be serving on the National Security Council before I was 30. However, I was rotated back stateside, near DC, to an alphabet agency, presumably to get "seasoned" but quite the opposite happened: where I believed in service, honor, truth, defense, and loyalty I was in for a rude awakening, and without going into detail (I can't, except to say the snowden revelations are anything but "new", and I swore an oath to the Constitution)...so I served my last year without re-upping.

Please forgive me for the above, I know its just "stuff of the world, i'm just trying open my heart and soul wide to you, in an attempt that we may heal our rift, I open my soul to you in the Love of Christ Jesus, I pray you know that.

Now, when I was 7, I was literally dropped at the doors of my synagogue, for Hebrew and Torah schooling....and walking thru those doors, God flooded my boy soul, He has always been SO REAL to me, I have never been a "secular, ethic" Jew as one sees among many American Jews today. I loved learning Hebrew, I loved our "sunday school", we would study the Writings, and we would sing, and I can still remember every song, including this, my favorite, "Oseh Shalom" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-3JMe9lLkY

Even as a child, going into that synagogue was something very precious, and very holy to me, as I love God with all my heart, mind, body and soul.

However at home, it was a different story, I was raised by my 1st generation American Jewish grandmother, (who could pass as a body double for Golda Meir, minus the Zionism) a dear sweet woman, nurturing, both physically, emotionally and intellectually. But my birth mother was an entirely different story, I love her with all my heart, but something was tragically amiss, and I did not discern this until I was 8 and had read thru the Torah; my mother was an astrologer and a tarot card reader, and since I feared God, I would beg and plead and cry to her, to please, STOP, and get rid of all the astrological charts and the tarot cards, for which I would get screamed with all the furies of hell.

at a certain point, God told me, "leave her to me". My grandmother died when I was 12, and my soul just about cracked....one could feel these demonic forces coursing thru the house.....didn't touch me, I knew Who I worshiped, and I was shielded by God...so much so, when I was 15, across the vast parking lot that was our baseball field, and old Victorian mansion was rented by a group of young Christians....now called "Jesus Freaks"...or as they called themselves "Jesus People"...and God led me thru their doors.

When I was a youngster in the synagogue, the Name JESUS...NEVER caused me fear, NEVER engendered "hatred or dread" of that Beautiful Name, so that going into their communal "Acts" style house, I was entranced, their worship was TRUE, REAL and full of love...I didn't think any of it all...."strange or foreign"....but what happened next, is an example of a young Christian a little too tightly wound. as a good "baby Berean", I wanted to read the ENTIRE Bible, and instead of starting off in Matthew, I started in Genesis, and one day was so FULL of the Holy Spirit, I thought it right to build in the back yard, with house bricks, a small altar to make an offering of Fire to the LORD...it might "sound silly" NOW, but then to me, I was bursting with JOY in the Lord....and this one young housemate, maybe 23, gave me such a rebuking, full of "righteous venom', I walked away from there, and never returned until May 2002, alone, on a lonely horse ranch in the mountains of Southern California

may I continue dear brother Julius, picking up after I left the Navy?...it was my intention to Aliyah to Israel, in the early 80's...I was praying and pondering, when Arik Sharon as Minister of Defense decided to launch "Operation Litani", which was to advance 25 kms into Lebanon to clear a PLO free zone. however Arik had other things in mind, fooling both Begin and IDF leadership. Arik, while a great tactical general, was most definitely not a man of faith, but a secular, ethic Jew, with a whole lot of hate for both Arafat and the PLO....and begin, who was frightened by Sharon did nothing as Sharon advanced to the outskirts of Beirut, ringed the city and for weeks pounded it with massive artillery, causing 15,000 CIVILIAN casualties, terrible carnage, I read stories where MANY good IDF officers RESIGNED their commissions on the hills of Beirut.

Julius, I would NOT be a part of this....defend Israel yes....kill civilians?...no. so I stayed. I had "fell" onto the floor of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, rose quickly, probably due to my prior military conditioning.....1988 comes around, and I was just tired of the Merc, because I had a front seat to a lot of crockery and besides the main meme to the Merc, is "make money" by hook or crook, which to me, is just worshipping the 'golden calf, which of course is rank sin, so I spoke to my son's mother, the only real "eros" love of my life, and proposed we immigrate to Israel, Kibuttz Degania in particular, I would immediately enlist in the regular IDF, as they would know of my Korean language skills and intel background, and I would become part of "aman" (mil intel)....over there, THEY tell YOU, where you serve, based on skillsets....and she was excited...three weeks before we were going, I was offered a high money job in LA, which I couldn't pass up, because we were couch surfing for quarters...

so to this day, I sometimes wonder , did I run away from service and to another golden calf?....therefore SOMETIMES, looking back on my life, in regards to Israel, did I fail the Father?...MODESTLY said, I do have a very good intel mind, and right now, I would be transitioning from uniformed service to civilian service, after 27 years.

I pray what I wrote provides you dear brother Julius with a soul portrait of myself in God....and I stretch out my hand to you, praying that you take it in the love of Jesus I give it to you....I know I have spoke of many "worldy" things, but they are foredrop to the Backdrop of the Risen Messiah....please forgive me for any hurtful words directed at you, I pray you regard me as brother neil holy xo

Hey, MrBillPro,

This thread does praise God after all! Thank you for promoting peace in your last post Neil.

God bless you,
Zsuzsanna

Well,
I don't agree with your assessment, & frankly some of my backdrop in thinking isn't in theological differences, but in patterns, things the Lord made clear to me, & especially when you posted the thread saying those of a different eschatological persuasion than yours (actually possibly the majority of Christians) were adhering to "a false Gospel, a false Christ, a FALSE SALVATION". Something I've pointed out a dozen times (accusing other believers of not being saved) that you never would own/admit & repent of. And then exactly what Docs has showed you to, attributing false things to others of an opposing view, & coming back around as if the previous 10x it was explained you forgot or didn't understand or something? Really, my question on how many "anti-Zionism" videos & speakers you have watched online is a fair one (& I think a pertinent one), but that's fine if you equate that to "do you beat your wife?" Ok. Yeah. That's the same thing right? 😳 Anyways, since you won't answer my question nor admit/repent of calling Pre-Mils false converts (how else does "Pre-Millinealism. False Gospel. false Christ. false Salvation." Get rightly interpreted?) I'll move on. Anyways, I mean you no harm. Just curious if you were ever ready to be "straight up" on all that yet? If you perceive that as "evil" on my part, you misunderstand my intent entirely (& which actually diverts from the issue of my still remaining questions), but whatever. Such is your choice.
God Bless,
Jeff

Brother Neil, I do forgive you without hesitation. Thank you for sharing your heart and reaching out to me in peace. Even though our end times theology differs, I can unreservedly and without hesitation pray with you for the peace of Jerusalem and for many Jewish people to come into the kingdom of God. I remember praying at The Wailing Wall next to some Jewish men who were sticking their prayers into the wall and praying for the Messiah to come. I was praying and thanking the Lord for coming and for opening my eyes and asking Him to lift the veil from Jewish folks. I very much wanted to communicate to the men praying beside me that their Messiah had already come and that they could receive Him. Even if I could have spoken Hebrew at the time that would have been rude to interrupt someone's prayers but nevertheless, the desire for them to know Messiah was in my heart.

My boss at the kibbutz was an old tank commander named Eli. He had a patch on one eye and a scar on his face. He really looked like a seasoned warrior to me and as a young kid, just out of the Navy, I was awesomely impressed at his very appearance. He had a wry grin on his face when I showed up at the ruffet my first day of work and I knew these guys were going to have some fun with this city boy. I will tell you the rest of this story later because I think we should allow others to get back to the subject of this thread. Nevertheless, I did not disappoint Eli, Moshe and others. They had a lot of fun with me and we all ended up becoming great friends. I became a very good and hard worker for them and it was a very sad day for me when I had to leave Kibbutz Einat and my dear friends. They wished me well and told me to come back soon. I would love to take my wife over to Israel and show her around.

Blessings to you in Messiah
J

Docs said:
"Racial, religious, and ethnic lines do not make one a child of God"
Docs also said:
"...They (todays jews) are the nation God has a covenant with."

Dear brother David, what is the basis of the covenant God has with todays Jews? Racial, religious, ethnic, geographical (land) or physical (circumcision)? Does this covenant save a jewish person who dies before "those great events"? What are the conditions of this covenant? Todays time is different from the times when Israel was in exile in the OT because today the old covenant is fulfilled by Jesus. The old covenant required sacrifices for the sins. Today there is only one sacrifice:Jesus. Without believing in Jesus (the sacrifice) even the requirements of the old covenant can not be met.
So what is the nature of the covenant that you say the today's jews have with God?
Jewish people today do not need to be in a covenant with God in order to be able to come to their savior Jesus. When they hear the gospel they repent the same way as the gentiles do, and become christians.

Zsuzsanna

Amen, amen.

by proudpapa on 2016/5/15 21:05:43

Abrahams faith was believing and trusting in the unseen.

.. we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope...

How can those by your scenario be saved in the same way as we are or be said to have the Faith of Abraham ?

That is what I was trying to say, and that is why there is only one gospel, not two. One plan of redemption not two.

We cannot preach another gospel based on physically "SEEING". That is not the "faith of Abraham". The promise of the Lord is based on faith in the unseen. The Lord pulls the veil from our spiritual eyes and then we are able to SEE, spiritually! It is called revelation. The Christian only lives by revelation.

Well then, respectfully,
What do you do with Paul who "saw" & heard Christ on the road to Damascus so much so that he was temporarily blind? And/or similar stories in the Muslim world right now of Muslims who saw Jesus either in a dream or a vision, & then came to Him? The brother at GCMI explains that There's actually one Muslim who in a remote village had a man come to him (literally walked through His door) & told him to get a pen & paper & write down what he told him to. He wrote down the entire book of John. Word for word! Never a Gospel witness to this remote Iranian village. He didn't even fully know or understand what all had been given to him! There are tons of similar type visions of Jesus in the Muslim world that's bringing many to faith. While I know we can't be dependent or reliant upon such to believe, if God Himself soveriegnly chooses to reveal Himself in this way for His purposes & save men, should we question God as if He must do all things according to our exact expected theological paradigm? I don't mean that in any way but an honest question worth consideration.
God Bless,
Jeff

They saw visions of Jesus. Jesus did not come and stay with them physically and be with them everyday. They received the promise of the Father (Holy Spirit) and they walked by faith everyday with the Holy Spirit.

2 Corinthians 5:7
(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

It's just a question:

When it says, "then they will look on Him whom they pierced", are you sure you rightly exactly understand what all that does & doesn't look like? I mean if you even believed at all that it was future & not past? I'm not sure I know what all it looks like exactly to a T, but I just take the Word as truth at face value, realizing it may look differently than I might at first think, but knowing whatever all it does/doesn't look like, it will line up with the scriptures/prophecy.

Just my thoughts,
Jeff

And I can't help but think of the parable of the workers & the vineyard owner. Some worked "all day" & some came in at the end for the same pay. I know the usual first context we think of (although it is a parable) is those who come to Christ early & serve Him all their days & those who come in on their deathbed so to speak & serve Him only for a bit before pay-time. I do wonder if the same type principle can be applied not only to the time (hours/days/years) of our individual lives, but also the span of time of those who came into the kingdom from around the time of His ascension as opposed to those who come in "at the end" when (or just as/before, depending how you think/see it) He returns? Just some things I wonder. Not at all being dogmatic or laying down official doctrine or anything, but I did notice somewhat of a potential parallel. Especially in the attitude of the ones who worked all day saying "it wasn't fair" & the vineyard owner saying He did what He said he would for them & He can give what's His out as He chooses. Kinda reminds me of the prodigal son & his brother too a bit actually too when I think about it. The one who stayed should have rejoiced as the Father did, but didn't think it was fair. Definitely some potential parallels there in principle I think possibly.
Anyways,
God Bless,
Jeff

by jeffmar1130 on 2016/5/16 0:58:18

It's just a question:

When it says, "then they will look on Him whom they pierced", are you sure you rightly exactly understand what all that does & doesn't look like? I mean if you even believed at all that it was future & not past? I'm not sure I know what all it looks like exactly to a T, but I just take the Word as truth at face value, realizing it may look differently than I might at first think, but knowing whatever all it does/doesn't look like, it will line up with the scriptures/prophecy.

Just my thoughts,
Jeff

Since we know the just walk by faith and not by sight it can only mean what it has meant for all Jews and Gentiles that have been saved through the centuries... The eyes of their understanding have "seen" Christ. This means they now understand with their heart and their minds have been illuminated with the truth of God. The Bible talks much about seeing with spiritual eyes in the OT and the NT.

John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Jesus did not blind their physical eyes. He is speaking about the eyes of their understanding. Many bible versions have been altered. Maybe it is the bible you are reading. What does your bible say in John 12:40?

In this next verse Jesus is talking about the eyes of our understanding, again.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

And again...
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Matthew 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Same thing in Isaiah
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkneda.

Here the eyes of their understanding are closed.

Isaiah 29:10-12
For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

Remember Matthew 13:13, 15?

Matthew 13:16-18
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Jesus is not taking about physical eyes. Physical eyes cannot see or understand revelation. We need the eyes of our heart (understanding) opened up.

Hope this helps.

Remember, Jesus called the Pharisees, "blind leaders of the blinds". They weren't really physically blind, were they?

If you read this carefully, Paul by inspiration of the Holy Spirit does seem to be defining what a Jew is.

Romans 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Where else does the bible define what a Jew is?

Psa 73:1 A Psalm of Asaph. Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.

Jer 9:26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

docs, I should have been clearer. I was not asking who is an ethnic Jew but who is a spiritual Jew. Seems the scriptures are clear on what a "spiritual" Jew is. Circumcision of the heart. Spiritual Jews are not trying to supplant ethnic Jews. Anyway, I don't want to deflect from the conversation and there is probably not much more to say about this.

TMK, if seeing Jesus physically will save people then I agree with you that the Gentiles that see Jesus will believe too. And why not ALL the GENTILES that SEE Him will be saved?

I would think more Gentiles, raised in Christian homes, or with Christian societal influences would recognize Jesus more readily than Jewish people who are not raised with any Christian influence.

And I had asked another question that went unanswered. What is it about Jesus appearing that will cause people to instantly repent and get saved?

Julius,
I'm pretty sure Saul on the road to Tarsus actually physically saw Christ from the text. And I'm pretty sure he was temporarily actually physically blind. But yes, of course, I understand the context of the other passages you reference definitely speak of "seeing" or "blindness" in a spiritual sense. Of course.

TMK,
Well, yeah, of course God was already working on Paul's heart soveriegnly before the road to Damascus. Just like he was working in my life before I even understood it (after being up for 3 days, in the middle of a huge drug deal concerning lbs. of meth - the other guy asked me, "do you believe in God?" Which totally caught me off guard, & I responded, "yeah, of course", but it sat on my conscience in concert with other things until it all finally culminated in my crying out in surrender & experiencing the New Birth), but that can likely be said of anyone in some way. God could use events leading up to this time in Israel to be working on the hearts of the Jews that will be saved too (like the fact that they will be attacked & wondering where their Messiah is?), but The Fact is, the final thing without which Saul doesn't get converted is the Road to Damascus experience where Christ physically knocks Saul down, blinds him, & speaks to him from the clouds ("why are you persecuting me?"). Of course in the mind & wisdom of God it's a "foregone conclusion" that those will be saved will be saved in His timing. He knew those who were His before the foundations of the earth were formed. Something I had forgotten but remembered AFTER my conversion was that at 3 years old, I was at a "Mothers Day out" at Buckner Road Baptist Church in Dallas, closed my eyes as the lady led us in prayer, & saw a giant man shining like the sun in a white robe & sitting on a throne, point His finger at me and say "This one is mine". I went to church, Christian school (until they finally asked me politely not to return), was a "Royal Ranger" at Church on the Rock, got baptized of my own volition 2x, etc. but the spiritual struggle within, the pain of my childhood & the battle with pornography, sexual immorality, & later alcohol, drugs & anger/violence was TREMENDOUS! I graduated top of my class, was nationally recognized for academics & achievement scores,,won several of the popularity class awards, lettered in 5 sports, had a route to college, etc. But I was still damaged goods inside emotionally & spiritually. I loved drugs & sex as an idol to temporarily soothe that pain, though they just made it all worse in the end, & fighting was a vent for all my anger/rage/hurt & bolstered my pride as others commended me on "how tough I was" (though I was like a hurt little boy inside).
What it eventually did was put me in positions, places, etc. I never thought I'd be in, turned me into a monster that was totally demonically possessed or at the very least oppressed, & in trouble with the law, local, city, state, & federal. But it wasn't until I was in a potential lifelong legal situation (& I understood the ramifications having been in a PreLaw program, working for a Lawyer, & having had trouble with the law several times now) and there was no way to talk my way out of it & my life was a total ruination heap & hopeless, that I went to the Word for myself, cried out to God & surrendured my life at the foot of the cross & got radically born again, set free, & set ablaze for Him! Now humbled, filled with peace, & set free from the demons within. But this didn't happen until I was 23 years old. So my point being that there was 20 years between that vision God showed a hurting, abandoned, abused 3 year old & my actual New Birth for real. But it was still always a "foregone conclusion" in the Soveriegn heart/mind/will of God! It always is! Thank God! I should have died (like really) over a half dozen times before 23 (fantastical car wrecks, overdose, gun at point blank range jammed, etc., etc.), but God had a plan & purpose for me from before the foundations of the earth to display His GRACE & GLORY not because of me, but IN SPITE of me! I believe similarly God's heart/plan/will for Israel in the end will be accomplished as well. Not because Israel is "greater" or "better", but almost the total opposite, but for His Name, Glory, Grace, & His Word's sake!
God Bless,
Jeff

One more question from the OP Message worthy Of asking that Dr Michael Brown often asks in debates with Stephen Sizer, Don Preston, Etc. that no one can ever seem to answer:

If "no one can gather what God has scattered", & "God scattered Israel in His judgement in 70 AD", then "who regathered them?" These great debaters always act like he never even asked that question (& others) & move on without even attempting it. But the fact remains, that even though God uses whatever "means" He chooses (Babylon, Cyrus, etc.) for His plan & purposes to be carried out, so He could use Britian, the UN, whoever, but if He scattered Israel in judgement & "no one can gather what He scatters", then how could it be undrerstood any other way than that God regathered them in the land ULTIMATELY for His plan & purposes? You don't even need all the understanding of all the prophets' words in the OT fully understood to realize that's an important question to answer.

I'm sorry PP, but I seemed to have missed your actual answer to Dr Michael Brown's question in the response (Which you said is "easy to answer Biblically")? That being said, I am curious what the ("Biblically easy") answer is?

And I didn't intend for that to come across snidely or as sarcasm PP, I promise. When I went back & reread it, I could see how it might be taken that way, but not my intention. I honestly didn't see the answer in your response & was a little confused. Sorry if it came across badly. No harm intended.
God Bless,
Jeff

Dear docs (David)

Thank you for taking the effort and answering all my questions. I love and respect you as my brother, you had a gentle spirit through all these posts trying to facilitate communication as much as possible.
But the doctrine you present here in the last post I reject entirely and wholeheartedly not because I am a preterist (only partial) but because I am a christian.
My reasons:
1. This doctrine puts the nation of Israel in the role of the savior.( You may say that you never intended that but it comes down to me so.)
2 This doctrine views the prophecies from a Jewish point of view. The Jewish people do not recognize that Christ came in the flesh, they naturally understand that the prophecies point to their first coming of the messiah (somwhere in the future). We christians know that the first coming of the messiah has already happened and that the prophecies of the coming of the messiah refer to that event.
In both points above this doctrine tries to dim the present significance of Jesus Christ, his coming (first) and his saving work.
This doctrine is harmful both for christians and Jews, not only regarding their views of escatology but also affects the faith of christians and their walk with God, and hinders the evangelization toward jewish people..
This is my opinion about a doctrine that serves as a paradigm and I think can not further be discussed by individual details only as a whole.
I am not questioning the sincerity of honest christians who believe this.
My heart is heavy because of this disagreement. Trying to find a common ground I came up with this:
We all love the Jewish people and want them to come to Christ, who is the way, the truth and the life.
1 John 5
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

May God bless you richly and guide all your ways,
Zsuzsanna

Edited for additions at the end:
Sure, but specifically in the language (especially the use of the original words/language) surrounding Israel it says that "what God has scattered no man can gather & what God gathers no man can scatter." Just like how it says Sodom & Gomortah would never be again, Babylon would never be again, etc. & this has held up through time. Sure, God can destroy certain things & allow men to rebuild them. But that's not what this verse is very specific in addressing in the language concerning Israel. It's actually the language people like Mauro (& others) used to say "Israel will never be formed again in the land". So being consistent is important. Some reject the modern regathering of Israel as divine by listening to lost, secular left-wing hack "historical revisionists" & saying that the historical events didn't happen as such, etc. There are many people online doing this. Some even reject the OT as "made up stories" in their zeal to rewrite history & discount historical & archeological (not to mention Biblical) history. Muslim websites & YouTube channels repost this garbage, & undiscerning Christians swallow it up whole to justify their view in light of "Palestinian injustice". While I won't deny there is some of that, the hard swing against the Israeli-centric prophecies & an attack on the scriptures, history, & archeaology is just "reactionary theology". I have seen traces of this from time to time leading me to believe some here have listened to & adhered to its assumptions/accusations, this my reasoning for asking about it recently: which went unanswered. Anyways, for a balanced, historical & Biblically supported view of what happened in 1948 with Israel's regathering, here is a short 4-5 minute video clip from "One For Israel" ministries (remember these are Messainic Believers in Christ who are a minority remnant even still in Israel who regularly get persecuted by unbelieving Orthodox Jews & the "anti-missionary" movement):

"How was Israel reestablished? Was it by occupying & plundering?" - One For Israel Ministries (4 minute short synopsis clip)

https://youtu.be/UMF08-28bSg

And the question still remains that God clearly states in the original language all the way back that "what He scatters NO MAN can gather" in context of His blessing & cursing on Abraham & His descendants Israel. And the "other view" uses & has before 1948 (& still even somehow today) to extensively in their arguments say, "in 70 AD
God scattered them." So again, if that's true, the question remains, "then who gathered them?" And if not God, then was He not holding to His Word? Of course that's not an option.

And I don't need to read all of Tertulloan to know he was an advocate for Supercessionism/Replacement Theology. This is well documented & commonly known (I have all the early church father volumes thank you), but I'm asking you, who said it was easy to answer Biblically, to answer the original question. It stands to reason that if "it's easy to answer Biblically", you should be able to answer it quite easily yourself?

And in this message (likely here on SI) By Michael Brown (here on SI) does a good job very simply & logically explaining in context why all of the references to "Israel" &/or "Jew" in the entire book of Romans are NOT just talking about the same thing consistently throughout, as well as other scriptures specifically.

"All Israel Shall Be Saved", Michael Brown
https://youtu.be/dRcVOTpSZHI

Saints,

We are locked this thread as the original post has been discussed adequately. May God give us a heart to examine ourselves and see are we "conceited" or have "pride" as Gentiles who are offered the words of life but do not realize we believe because of Israel's transgression and rejection?

The Word of God speaks to us to humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God. To humble yourself is never wrong but almost always right!

this thread is locked.

We have now come full circle and we have fought and made our points a hundred times over and no-one has changed their position. What a shocker:-)

Brother Greg, I would like to request that you lock this thread now if that is not too forward of me to ask?

And for the sake of the ENTIRE Sermon Index community I would also humbly request that ALL OF US stay off these topics in these existing threads and refrain from starting new ones for a while. Can I get an amen???