John 15:1-I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
Is it possible for a branch to be in Jesus and not able to bear fruit? Were these branches abiding in Jesus or not?
I want to know what others think about the branches that does not bear fruit.
The branches that do not bear fruit have been somehow disconnected from the vine. It seems clear that the Lord has laid it upon us to abide ( continuous action verb, to keep abiding) in Him. The onus is on us to abide, stay cloes, be connected to Him. If we do not we are in danger of being " cut off.".......bro Frank
This is what even I believed Frank. But if these branches are some how disconnected from the vine, then why is Jesus referring them as 'Branches in him'. If the branch is disconnected then it is no longer in the vine right.
So to me now it appears that these are branches that are still connected to the vine but have stopped producing fruit.
So Jesus is saying even among the branches that abide in him only some bear fruits. But without abiding in him nothing can bear fruit.
I hope I have conveyed my questions clearly. The thought that a branch can be in the vine and still cannot produce fruit and remain fruitless scares me. Forget about being cut later by father, but even to stay in a fruitless state is scary.
I did not write this but it is something to at least consider.
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If you don't bear fruit, you'll get chopped off
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit He taketh away; and every branch that beareth fruit, He purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. --John 15:1-2, King James Version
This verse has brought fear into the lives of countless believers because of bad translation. The problem begins with the Greek word, 'airo', which is translated "taketh away". Its usual meaning is "to raise, to lift up”; "to take away" is a secondary meaning. If a branch is "in Jesus”, He will not "take it away” if it does not bear fruit! The context is the same passage where Jesus says, "Peace I leave with you,” and "Let not your heart be troubled.”
Jesus does not treat His own that He died for like that-- if you are in Him, you are safe in Him. Anyone who knows grapes will tell you that a branch will not bear fruit if it falls into the dirt”” it must be raised, lifted back up onto the trellis, not removed!
Unfortunately, the NASB and the NKJV repeat this error, and then compound it by choosing the harshest possible meaning for the next phrase: Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it, that it may bear more fruit. --NASB and NKJV
Now we have the Father removing the branches that fail-- and cutting those that succeed down to a nub! You can't win! However, since pruning is done to dead branches after the growing season is over, it is not what Jesus meant here. Living branches are not "pruned”-- the plant would go into shock and be unable to bear at all. But allowing the leaves to become coated with dust and dirt reduces the crop, so the vinedresser cleans/washes them.
The Greek word 'kathairo' that's translated "to prune" has a usual meaning of "to cleanse”. "To prune” is a secondary meaning at best--
it's not even mentioned as a possibility in one of the best Greek dictionaries. 'Kathairo' comes from a root word that means "clean, pure”. Jesus actually uses this same root word in the very next verse:
"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you." -- John 15:3
It would make no sense to say, "You are already pruned because of the word which I have spoken to you.” Neither does it make sense for a vinedresser to prune living branches. God cleanses us with the water of the Word”” He doesn’t chop limbs off.
Don’t let your heart be troubled. Here’s a better translation:
"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He lifts up from where it has fallen; and every branch that bears fruit He cleanses, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you."
Hi Tuc, all the verses for context......
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. (Joh 15:1-6)
The end result is the branches that do not produce fruit are cast into the fire. That seems like a cautionary tale to me............bro Frank
John 15:2 New International Version (NIV)
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful.
2 Peter 2:20-22 New International Version (NIV)
20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,”[a] and, "A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”
Hebrews 3:12 New International Version (NIV)
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
Hi sree, I believe that it has to do with free will. Yes we come to Jesus, yes we surrender our lives but these are not one time things. Salvation is of course but to live the surrendered life is to continually surrender. We must continue to come to Jesus, we must continue to seek Him out, we must continue to go deeper into Him. If we do not we can begin to drift away and if we are not diligent, careful with such a great salvation, continue to work it our, we could become reprobates or castaways. Of course someone believes once saved always saved they are not going to accept that which is fine, I can agree to disagree with those of that ilk.
Consider the parable of the sower and the seed. The seed is the word and is heard by the four categories. The first group hears it but because they do not comprehend it then the seed is immediately taken. The second group hear it and receive it with joy, but there is no depth to their conversion and when trouble comes it withers up on the stony ground of their hearts. The third group hear the word and receive it but it has fallen among the thorns and the thistles, the cares and the troubles of this world and the life was choked out of them. The fourth group heard the word and the word , the seed was received into good deep soil and it produced various amounts of fruit. All of these categories, for a time, had the word and had life of one depth or another. Circumstances either snatched the life of the seed away quickly or slower but surely. These to me would be the equivalent of the branches that bore no fruit and were chopped of and burned. Many are called, few are chosen.................bro Frank
I simply think that the context ,is a Jewish thing ,relating to Jesus making a statement about him being the God of Israel and the source of life and salvation to them, as he always was through out history ,,,
Jesus is just saying to theses Jewish people who abide in the vine due gods sovereign election of the Israelites as a chosen people ,that unless they bare fruit worthy of repentance, they will be cut of and cast in the the fire ,because this is the result ,when one does not repent and receive the new birth ,,,,,
It has nothing to do with a true believer being cast in to hell ,
One can go to the Old Testament and see the parelels with Israel and the metaphors of them being called a vineyard,,,
The direct historical context has nothing to do with Gentiles ....
by brothagary on 2016/5/18 23:59:13I simply think that the context ,is a Jewish thing ,relating to Jesus making a statement about him being the God of Israel and the source of life and salvation to them, as he always was through out history ,,,
Jesus is just saying to theses Jewish people who abide in the vine due gods sovereign election of the Israelites as a chosen people ,that unless they bare fruit worthy of repentance, they will be cut of and cast in the the fire ,because this is the result ,when one does not repent and receive the new birth ,,,,,
It has nothing to do with a true believer being cast in to hell ,
One can go to the Old Testament and see the parelels with Israel and the metaphors of them being called a vineyard,,,
The direct historical context has nothing to do with Gentiles ....
Hi Gary,
Many Christians are struggling to live the Christian life, who have never discovered where the strength to live that life is to be found. There are many earnest believers, young and old, who are continually being disappointed and cast down because they are finding their own strength and resources inadequate to meet the demands of true Christian living. And many, many Christians of all ages who are hungering and thirsting after a fuller, deeper life than that which they have up to now experienced. What they need to know, and to know experientially as well as mentally, is that all the resources of the Christian life are in CHRIST, and in Him ALONE, and that He lives in them by the Holy Ghost.
I have thought no better illustration was given by the Lord regarding this truth than the Lord's parable of the vine and the branches. This is the first that I have heard it only applies to unsaved Jews.
Especially since every true Christian is "in Christ", a branch in the vine, joined to the Lord and partaker of His nature.
"I am the True Vine, and My Father is the Husbandman. Every branch in Me that beareth not fruit, He taketh away.... If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered: and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
We are all called to abide in Christ and bear fruit. The scriptures teach that "He is our life" and that is true for the branches, too. The Vine is their life.
The following applies to all Christians, for surely we cannot bear fruit unless we abide in Christ.
"As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine, no more can ye, except ye abide in Me . . . for without Me (or, severed from Me), ye can do nothing."
Hi Julius, like I was saying ,it's the direct context, within is historical application ,,,.the facts are he was speaking to the lost sheep of the house of Israel , not to the dogs,,, can I hear any woofs.brothers and sister ...
He was speaking to the lost sheep as as a whole so to speak some where arguable saved already baring fruit ,all ready pruned and cleaned ,and baring fruit ,some weren't ,we know one wasn't ......judus....
Depending on how some interpret scripture ,some say there were none saved till the spirt fell on the day of pentacost,,,,so that would delagate the preaching about the vine and branches to the lost unregenerate Jews ..
Some say that when Jesus breathed on the deciples and said receive the Holy Spirit just before pentacost, only then were they saved ,,,so that would also delagate the vine and branches sermon to the lost sheep who would be also unregenerate .......
So these two views of scripture only allow preaching of the vine and branches to the unregenerate,,,and it is a good argument , I might add ,one that deserves a fresh thread ,,,,tho I don't subscrib to those two views ,in which would be a reason interpret the above ,as if Jesus was speaking to the unsaved ,,,,,
My reasons would be the historical context and missions of Jesus to the lost sheep ,and his ,sovereign relationship to the line of Abraham ,and to corasponding prophecy found in the Old Testament ,that Jesus was using as a metaphor wile teaching the deeper truth of it ....
Now I'm sure you can stretch the application and apply it to those who hear the gospel ,,,,,,,as if God is the scorce of life and light ,and he lights every man that comes in to the world , he upholds Ol things by the word of his powers ,and in him do all things consist ,,he is vine and mankind is the branches ,any who don't bare fruit ,will be cast to hell ...
Or you can aply it the way you and frank are applying it ,which I think is contextual wrong ,but OK to do , since it lines up with other exhortation to press on and insure ,,,,,,,but personally there is enough verses already for that ,and also to teach Christians to get there strength form Christ and not the flesh ,as you said ,, so I am not obligated to use those same verses to teach an application as you mentioned ,,
Ok, but there is historical context and then spiritual context, right? And comparing spiritual things with spiritual things has been why the church has historically taught that Jesus is not just speaking to His disciples then, but all men for all time.
1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
It's not really the way I interpret (since there is no private interpretation) but how the Holy Spirit teaches and this has been confirmed historically in the Church and the witness of many other scriptures. One cannot abide in Christ unless they are first IN CHRIST, right?
Jesus is saying that we will "continue in His love if we abide (remain) in Him.
John 15:8-9
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Of course, at the time He was talking to His disciples, but by your logic we cannot now cut out all scriptures in the NT where He was talking to His disciples as not applicable to ALL His disciples for all time.
Jesus mentions in John 15, those who love Him and those who hate Him. Also applicable to all men for all time.
John 15:20-21
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
Just because no one was saved before Jesus resurrected does not mean that we can ignore the gospels as only applicable to unsaved Jews. Jesus says "he that endures to the end will be saved".
Many Christians are struggling to live the Christian life, who have never discovered where the strength to live that life is to be found. There are many earnest believers, young and old, who are continually being disappointed and cast down because they are finding their own strength and resources inadequate to meet the demands of true Christian living. And many, many Christians of all ages who are hungering and thirsting after a fuller, deeper life than that which they have up to now experienced. What they need to know, and to know experientially as well as mentally, is that all the resources of the Christian life are in CHRIST, and in Him ALONE, and that He lives in them by the Holy Ghost.
YES! AMEN!
Here is what Dr. Earl Radmacher wrote about this passage.
"Jesus is indicating what actually occurred during the Spring, namely, certain non-fruiting branches were "lifted up": (to keep them from touching the ground and setting roots) and tied to trellises along with the fruiting branches while the side shoots of the fruiting branches were being "cleaned up." The non-fruiting branches were allowed to grow with full vigor and without the removal of any side growth or leaves since the more extensive their growth the greater diameter of their stem where it connected to the vine and thus the greater ability for the flow of nutrients from the roots to the branches which would produce more fruit the following season. By removing them from the ground and placing them on the trellis the rows of plants would benefit from unhindered aeration that was considered an essential element to proper fruit development. (24) To see airei as removal (judgment or discipline) is to contradict the actual practice of the time.
What Jesus has said in the first two verses of this beautiful analogy is nothing short of pure encouragement. He has introduced us to a very special "TLC" rule of our Father. He has told them that God the Father cares for them like a vine dresser cares for his grapes. Further, they are each a part of Jesus and draw their spiritual life from Him like branches draw life from the vine. Jesus has affirmed that among those who are believers, those who believe in Him and so belong to Him, those who are "in Him," some are ready to bear fruit and some are not.
God the Father is caring for both groups of believers. The ones not ready to bear fruit are being "lifted up" by Him with a view to future fruitfulness. Thankfully, the Father does not cut off all non-fruiting branches or the vine would never produce fruit. Though they are not fruitful now, they are still important to Him and recipients of His loving concern. The Father is also caring for the ones who are now ready to bear fruit, like the eleven. He is taking those loving actions that will insure their greater fruitfulness. Jesus' point in this verse is singular. God the Father cares for all who belong to Jesus regardless of their fruitfulness."
Perhaps it's good to read John 15 alongside Romans 11 (a bit surprised it has yet to be mentioned!):
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+11&version=NKJV
The olive tree and her branches, branches broken off due to unbelief, etc. So the verses show that a lack of fruit is symptomatic of unbelief. And that we are grafted into Christ - the True Vine / Olive Tree - on the basis of faith in Him, not works.
Putting these thoughts together, I believe so long as we continuing abiding / believing in Christ, we'll bear good fruit. Branches are chopped off due to unbelief, which is the reason for lack of fruit.
It might be that John 15:1 and John 15:6 are describing two separate things. In John 15:1 Jesus said every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit He takes away. If what Tuc is sharing is correct. Then the explanation by Dr. Rademacher make sense in the context of the scriptures. Because in John 15:1 the key phrase is IN ME.
In John 15:6 Jesus said every branch that does not ABIDE IN NE me is thrown away and burned. This verse is clear and that if one is not living in Christ and bearing fruit. He is taken away and burned. This would imply this person is not born again.
So perhaps these questions need to be considered. What does it mean to be IN CHRIST? Is being IN CHRIST the same as ABIDING IN CHRIST?
As usual these are my thoughts promoting these questions. Caps are for emohasis only.
"What does it mean to be IN CHRIST? Is being IN CHRIST the same as ABIDING IN CHRIST?"
Abide means to "remain". Many translations use remain in place of abide.
So to abide is to remain. If one chooses to no longer remain in Him then he will become unfruitful and eventually be removed because he becomes a dead branch.
I do not believe that this happens quickly or easily. But I do believe it happens.
I am fully convinced that I was one of those branches who was at risk of being broken off back in 2011. I was no longer abiding in Christ. I was no longer depending on Christ. I was abiding in my flesh and living fully after my own wicked desires. If the Lord Jesus had not had mercy on me I would still be on a path to hell today. Very religious and full of doctrine, but nonetheless...on a very clear path to hell and destruction.
Thank God for His loving kindness and mercy, it is never too late to wake up and repent!!!
Brother Blaine writes.......
"So perhaps these questions need to be considered. What does it mean to be IN CHRIST? Is being IN CHRIST the same as ABIDING IN CHRIST?"
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. (Heb 6)
Here the Scriptures speak to one who was once enlightened, one who has tasted of the heavenly gift, been a partaker of the Holy Spirit who have tasted the good word and have touched the power of God and the powers of the world to come who then fall away. These are folks who were "in Christ," but failed to abide in Him. The promises are made to those who " endure till the end," to the " overcomers." So, one can be "in Christ," then fail to abide in Him and then at some point as they starve themselves of the resources ( the sap) of Christ, fall away..........bro Frank
Good post bro Mark, we were having the same good thoughts at the same time is seems :) God bless you bro.....bro Frank
Yes, we must have pressed SUBMIT at the exact same time...may God richly bless your soul this fine spring morning my dear brother:-)
Does seem to make sense in terms in what Mark and Frank have shared. That one can be in Christ. But fail to abide or remain in Christ.
Yuehan - Read again what you just posted by Dustin Horstmann
"Really, we need to answer this question to discover what we really stand on in life. Is it Jesus' performance or our performance?
If you rely on your performance in any way, you will not be able to receive from God. Truly, your heart will remain closed because you will never be sure you are doing enough. You will remain vulnerable to sin, sickness and financial problems.
On the other hand, if you see that Christ is your righteousness apart from works (Rom. 4) and that He has forgiven you for all time (Heb. 10), you will say, "Because of Jesus, God's promises are guaranteed."
Remember:
You are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. You have been perfected for all time. This is through grace and not works. Therefore, it is guaranteed. Rest in Him and find your heart opening to receive all the blessings in God's kingdom for you to make you more than a conqueror."
The question I asked is about the branches that are IN Christ, whether they are same as those who abides IN Christ. I am thankful for all those who have answered this question of mine.
I am not concerned about God the father removing the non fruit bearing branch. Even if 'remove' is not the right word, it still makes no difference to my question.
I am concerned about a Branch that is IN Christ but does not bear fruit. Let us not go about the end result of this branch, which is to be thrown into fire or destroyed or even Lifted up! But the current state itself which is 'IN Christ' but No Fruits. Is a dangerous state. I am concerned about this state.
So based on some of the posters here, it appears that to be IN Christ is different from Abiding in Christ. May be these branches that were IN Christ did not really Abide. Hence the life did not flow into them. That is why they had no fruits.
In practical terms I think this fruitless state be compared to a person who is still taking the name of Christ, calls himself Christian, goes to Church, lives as a religious Christian but the life of Jesus is not flowing into him. Please let your view on this. How do you see the practical state of a fruitless state of a branch IN Christ.
Now how can we ensure that we are not in this Fruitless state? How do we know that the life of Jesus is flowing into us? Are the fruits referred by Jesus the fruit of Spirit or ministry fruit? A person who has the fruit of Spirit but no ministry fruit, is considered fruitful or fruitless?
Sree you write...........
"So based on some of the posters here, it appears that to be IN Christ is different from Abiding in Christ. May be these branches that were IN Christ did not really Abide. Hence the life did not flow into them. That is why they had no fruits.
In practical terms I think this fruitless state be compared to a person who is still taking the name of Christ, calls himself Christian, goes to Church, lives as a religious Christian but the life of Jesus is not flowing into him. Please let your view on this. How do you see the practical state of a fruitless state of a branch IN Christ."
I believe that bro Mark addressed exactly what you seem to be looking at as he described his own position.......bro Frank
I believe that bro Mark addressed exactly what you seem to be looking at as he described his own position.......bro Frank
Yes I just did it, I appreciate his testimony. I too was in that state. This proves that my understanding of Fruitless Christian who still IN Jesus is correct.
Now my second question is still valid. How do we know know that we are abiding in him? Some practical ways?
Someone "acting" like a Christian, going through the motions but not having the Holy Spirit is still a "child of wrath", whom the Spirit of disobedience is working in.
2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Christians are enjoined to examine themselves.
2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Dear TUC.
If we "have already been perfected for all time and this is based upon grace not works" as you wrote, how then can Jesus Himself have anything against any one IN Him?
How can Jesus Himself say to the churches - "I have this against you?"
If Jesus sees us as already perfected, why did He Himself say to the believers in Revelation - "...for I have not found your works perfect before God?"
Why would Jesus tell people He viewed as already perfected - "remember the height from which you have fallen, repent and do the first works?"
If Jesus saw believers as you claim He and the Father see them, there is nothing to do, no repentance needed, no reproof necessary.
Can you please explain this apparent contradiction. I say "apparent" because it appears to me to contradict what you have written. Perhaps you do not see it that way and can explain it for me and for others like me who also see problems with what you have written.
Thank you again for your participation in discussing these things with us.
Mak
I did not write this - I was referring to a post by Yuehan - where he posted an article by Dustin Horstmann.
I think that Dustin is referring to Heb 10:10
(ASV) By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(Darby) by which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(GNB) Because Jesus Christ did what God wanted him to do, we are all purified from sin by the offering that he made of his own body once and for all.
(ISV*) By God’s will we have been sanctified once and for all through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus, the Messiah. [Or Christ]
(ISV) By God's will we have been sanctified once and for all through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus, the Messiah.
(KJV) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(LITV) by which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(Webster) By which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
(WNT) It is through that divine will that we have been set free from sin, through the offering of Jesus Christ as our sacrifice once for all.
(YLT) in the which will we are having been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once,
Maybe you should ask Dustin Horstmann who wrote the article.
Hi Makrothumia,
I believe Dustin is referring to the process of regeneration, whereby a person is made alive unto Christ the moment he believes into Him. This is his true identity assigned by Christ upon his born-again experience.
Hebrews 10:14 sums this up perfectly: "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."
Brother Alan Martin, what is your view on the branches that are IN Christ and bear no fruits.
Based on the posts here, I have come to conclusion that they are religious Christians, who are taking the name of Jesus, have good external testimony but have no life flowing into them. Basically they are branches in Vine but never abided as a branch. So the Sap or life never flowed into them.
Greetings Sree,
I believe we are included IN Christ when we believed, having heard the word of truth, we are sealed IN Him.
Once we are in Christ we must remain in Him, not MOVED from the hope of the gospel. This is what Paul was careful to do when he and Barnabas decided to return to the churches to strengthen the souls of the disciples, urging them to "remain" (ev+meno) in the faith." Acts 14:22
The same word (ev+meno) is found in Jeremiah 31 where God declares His reason for making the New Covent - "because they did not remain in the covenant...". We know that we stand by faith, that is how we remain IN Christ. "Christ dwells in our heart by faith". If we abandon the faith and do not continue in the faith, we will shipwreck our faith.
It is the obedience of faith that secures abiding in Christ's love. "If you keep My commands, you will remain/abide in my love." This is why the writer of Hebrews could write that Christ has become "the source of eternal salvation to all those who are obeying Him."
Obedience in the active expression of faith that remains IN Christ. Unbelief is why branches are broken off. We "stand" or remain IN Christ by faith. If MY RIGHTEOUS ONE shrink back, my soul shall take no pleasure in Him." We know that no one is considered righteous except "by faith", so shrinking back is an expression of unbelief, abandoning the faith.
Paul new that the believers would face the temptation to shrink back and abandon the faith. He also knew that God set aside the first covenant with Israel because they did not "abide in" (remain) in the Covenant. This is also why he expressed his own desire to be found IN Him as he pressed toward the high calling.
I hope that helps. We are initially included IN Christ by faith. Christ dwells in our hearts by faith. We continue to stand by faith. This is what is revealed in the gospel - God's righteousness from faith to faith. Those who endure to the end - faith still working through love will stay IN Christ.
If someone does not remain in Christ, his or her name will be erased from the book of life.
Mak
Amen to everything you said, Mak. That is my understanding, too.
When Paul was speaking of being "sealed" with the Holy Spirit it is almost like he had the seal of hot wax in mind that they used to seal letters back in that day.
Unfortunately, many unseal themselves from Christ by not remaining in Him.
I did not write this - I was referring to a post by Yuehan - where he posted an article by Dustin Horstmann.
I think that Dustin is referring to Heb 10:10
(ASV) By which will we have
Thank you for the clarity. Yes, Christ death has "justified" everyone who has ever sinned and this freely. In one atonement, one offering for sin, the sins of the entire world has been atoned. Christ Jesus tasted death for every man. He died for everyone who has ever been ungodly.
For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God AND ARE JUSTIFIED FREELY! Who is justified freely - ALL!
And this - BY ONE SACRIFICE! Amen.
I realize that it is not clear that this is what I believe is meant by - for by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being sanctified."
His sacrifice was clearly for the entire world, for the sins of the whole world, for all the ungodly. God takes no pleasure in the death of anyone and He never has. He provided perfect atonement for all. ALL HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED freely. The question then, if ALL have been justified, why are so few saved?
Mak
I just wanted to say that this has been a good discussion and I appreciate that. Sree asked for practical ways we would know that we are abiding in the vine.
For me peronally, I know the presence of God and His Spirit speaking to me. I know that when I am abiding or to put it another way, walking in the Spirit, that my interactions with other believers and those of the world is different. In my flesh I would be argumentative and have a great desire to prove myself correct, in the Spirit it does not matter.
In my flesh I would easily take offense, walking in the Spirit I do not. In my flesh I have no particular desire to share the Gospel, in the Spirit I have a great desire to share with anyone who will listen about Jesus. In my flesh I am very impatient with people and do not suffer fools gladly, in the Spirit I am long suffering. In the Spirit I am quick to forgive, walking in my flesh I hold grudges.
I could go on and on but it is clearly apparent to me that to not be walking in the Spirit is the beginning of a death process. I would and have slowly died on the vine as I resist the small still voice of Jesus and allow my flesh to rule. There is undoubtedly a battle that takes place within us and the flesh always desires to have its way. This is why it is so vital to take up our cross daily and continually die to the flesh.
One last thing, the analogy of the branch only goes so far. A branch cannot deliberately cut itself of from the life giving sap, so the analogy is limited. We on the other hand can quench the work of the Spirit in our lives by allowing the flesh to rule. Hope this helps in some way Sree...........bro Frank
Amen, Frank. Parables express parts of spiritual reality. We need the whole counsel of God to fill in the "gaps".
Brother, there is good amount of wisdom in what you have written. I now clearly understand what it means to be IN Christ and also to REMAIN or ABIDE in Christ.
I still feel my question is only answered in parts here. I still want to see a practical picture of a person who is IN Christ but does not REMAIN or ABIDE. Are they religious Christians? Because the branch is still IN Christ, until God the father has decided to cut it off.
There are some posters here who gave a practical picture. I myself gave one.
Dear Sree, it may be that you are looking for personal examples of what this may look like.
These are the examples that come to my mind that were used by the New Testament writers.
John used Diotraphes as an example of someone in a prominent position who was doing wicked works, separating and alienating brothers.
Paul warned of "neophytes" being put into places of responsibility due to the danger of their becoming puffed up and coming into condemnation.
Paul also used the example of those who love pleasure to a greater degree than they love God and have a form of godliness but deny its real power. That sounds like a religious person who claims to be IN Christ.
The example that speaks the most to me is the land that produces only thorns and thistles. All that is necessary for this to happen is for a heart to become fallow. If we do not work and cultivate fruitfulness there is a danger of being cursed.
Mak
I apologize for the double post. If someone knows how to delete please feel free to.
Thank you everyone. It was very useful discussion. Even those who had alternate views on Salvation brought some interesting things into this discussion. I gained lot of understanding through this.
May the Lord make us all fruitful.
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