Menu

God v family

S
sermonindex

Jeff wrote: I merely was responding to the broad brush general statements that I (& scripture & church history) do not agree with. While there may be error in the OP being addressed, the right Biblical solution is never an equal & opposite error on the other side that has no Biblical or historical balance. The answer to apparent so called Biblical contradictions is always "more Bible". The full sum of the whole counsel of scripture.

While that passage/s (& others like it/them) does speak much on leaving worldly goods behind, you have to be intentionally ignoring the very clear statements about family (even wife specifically) or something? We are to never neglect our wife/family, while at the same time we are never to neglect the Lord, His Christ, His Gospel, His calling, etc. If the two seemingly "conflict", then what you're proposing is "choose family first", & I contend that the scriptures are crystal clear that our love & obedience doesn't contradict it, but "trumps" all. Jesus, the apostles, early church, much of the modern worldwide church, etc. were/are crystal clear on this both in doctrine & example.

No one said anything about disrespecting their wife (I sure didn't). But the issue is loving wife, children, brethren, neighbor, lost, etc. but all in secondary submission to our primary "first love" of Jesus preimmenently. This is what scripture clearly teaches in balance, doctrine & example.

Art Katz said one time in a message called "Daughters of Sarah" (based on the NT principle in scripture of this & being in submission, a husbands headship role in the family, a wife's Biblically ordained right response, etc.) a man & his wife came forward at the end of a meeting. The wife said "my husband thinks we are to sell our successful business & move our family to the mission field! I told him as soon as God tells me, then I'll go!" Art gracefully, "in an understanding way considering the wife as the weaker vessel" said, "o dear precious daughter: if the Lord has spoken to your husband, He has already spoken to & concerning you. God appointed Him over you under Himself." Our modern feminist cultural thinking from childhood doesn't like that, but it doesn't make it any less true.

Again, I'm not speaking to the OP & message AT ALL. Merely the "reactionary" over statements of broad brush generalizations that followed (that I already highlighted, particularly the Unbiblical in-historical view that missions should be for the single people & not the family). David Wilkerson preached & taught against this error in thinking. John Piper does. David Platt does. Art Katz did. The very lives of William Carey, Afonirum Judson, & countless others did. The teachings & examples of Jesus, the apostles, the early church, the modern historical church the world around, etc. speaks volumes otherwise. To emphatically presume to teach & say otherwise is not Biblical & a careless opinion & poor extraction of truth from scripture IMHO,

I didn't want to derail the other thread or leave this question unanswered.

Regarding the early church and apostles being married, the situation is rather different in that there was no-one else to go. Since that time, there have been plenty of people to go on mission.

It is not a matter of serving God or family - I just think that many who go and leave their families, are mistaken in thinking that God has called them, even Mark Greening who was obviously a godly man and anointed, made in my view and also Zsuzsanna's (thanks) the error that it was okay to stand his wife up on important occasions, once without even ringing her to cancel.

Is it not strange brethren, that these men often end up in broken marriages? Of course, some will blame the wives and say that they were not submitted to |God's calling on their husbands, but why should they not be allowed to disagree that their husbands had been called?

Most wives know their husbands much more than they know themselves. I do not accept that God will call a married man without letting his wife know of the calling to the mission field. That idea is reducing her to a piece of equipment.

I do not say that no married man will be called - in certain circumstances, no singles will be available and perhaps a woman will be needed on the field too. And even possibly that there might be young children involved.

But in this day and age, I believe that God will call people whilst they are at college and single and any so called calling oiutside of this should be treated with great caution and delay. I do believe that most callings take place in young people.

It is my opinion that many of these callings of married people were not from God. We often make mistakes over God's will for us - I have myself.

S
savannah

Are these three comments scripturally supported, or are they merely your opinion?

1) "...why should they not be allowed to disagree that their husbands had been called?" Are you equating being "allowed to disagree" with her 'refusing to submit and follow'?

2) "Most wives know their husbands much more than they know themselves."

3) "I do not accept that God will call a married man without letting his wife know of the calling to the mission field. That idea is reducing her to a piece of equipment."

S
sermonindex

1 Peter 3:7
Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Christian men, often today do not see their wives as "heirs together of the grace of life", and often miss "godly fellowship" with them. Their wives have the indwelling Holy Spirit, and much wisdom from them often goes unsolicited or ignored. A patriarchal spirit has conditioned men in this way.

S
sermonindex

The original situation was that a husband was supposed to choose whether to break a promise to his wife (but calling her to cancel and apologise would have been enough) or miss an urgent opportunity to minister. The husband chose not to call his wife and did the ministering.
By that I believe he disrespected the wife. This is a mistake we do sometimes but God is graceful, so is our partner, if we admit that sin and apologise all is well. Unless someone is doing this all the time it is not a big deal. But if a person does not admit this mistake but says that it was completely ok because he was doing Gods work and sticks to this opinion, that person is proud, arrogant, not acting in love, not seeking peace. This kind of attitude is disobedience to God and hurts deeply.
Just think of it: What would Jesus do?
Keeping promises is a basic godly thing to do, along with admitting mistakes. If we do this we are already doing Gods work by demonstrating this behavior. c
This is the reason why I believe God calls families to the mission field, so they can demonstrate how Gods love works in their family, and how they trust God to meet their family's needs.
I agree that wives should submit their husbands. Except when the husband asks the wife to sin against God. In that case they should rather obey God, but be careful not to disrespect their husband.
The wife I believe is directly responsible to God, and can directly pray to him, she doesn't have to go through the husband to establish a relationship with Jesus.
I think the question God v family is not relevant when the minister is humble. I believe God provides a perfect balance to those that obey him.
An impatient worldly wife or an arrogant husband can make it look like the God v family question is a valid one, but I believe God can harmonize everything if they both are humble.
My toughts,
Zsuzsanna


S
sermonindex

Amen, Zsuzsanna.

God established the family, and it is a logical fallacy to imply God is pitted against the family as in "God vs Family". I don't think Brenda meant it that way.

We are all brought into the family of God where love and respect and honesty, reign.

S
sermonindex

Brenda did not say it should be a question.. The title rather says: SOME THINK God vs family is a question.

S
Sree

The truth is kind of in the middle. Yes family is very important. Brother Zac Poonen says that our walk with God is a 3 story building. Lowest level is our personal walking with God. The next level of the building is our family life with wife and children. Their level is our ministry. The problem with many ministers today is they are trying to build level 3 without a solid Level 1 and 2. That is why we hear many ministers falling in Adultery (personal fall) and Divorce (family fall).


Regarding God calling a family man, I do not believe it is important for a man to leave his family struggle and then go and serve God. If the wife agrees to come with him, then he can take her.

It is a very rare call where God tells a man to leave his wife. In most cases it is because the man is unequally yoked, etc. But even in that case it is very rare.

J
JFW

Brother Keith Daniels has (imo) done this "balancing act" very well.
While he is often on the road preaching, as he has done for years, when his wife (Jenny) is not present he will often credit her publicly, praising her diligence, sacrifice, godliness and perseverance in maintaining the family in his absence. I do believe (from his many words about his father) that he would honor his commitment to God above his wife,... but not at her expense.

The proof is in the pudding and his family has been kept in order and not only has Jenny penned books of her poems but now his son Roy has begun to really have a notable ministry himself.

I do believe allot of brother Daniels success in bringing the gospel
is due to his godly wife:)

S
sermonindex

I was also thinking of Keith Daniel, and how evident it is that he respects his wife even though he can not be home with her often and sometimes for longer times.
Zsuzsanna

S
sermonindex

"a man & his wife came forward at the end of a meeting. The wife said "my husband thinks we are to sell our successful business & move our family to the mission field! I told him as soon as God tells me, then I'll go!" Art gracefully, "in an understanding way considering the wife as the weaker vessel" said, "o dear precious daughter: if the Lord has spoken to your husband, He has already spoken to & concerning you. God appointed Him over you under Himself."

The danger of quoting "famous" preachers is that we do not know all the circumstances. Let's break it down though.
1) The husband has not left for the mission field yet because he is waiting for something to happen? It seems he is waiting until his wife has a submissive spirit about going.
2) that's a good thing, that he has not simply uprooted and left his wife and children.
3) Art was not telling the couple to leave for the mission field but that (in his opinion) God had already spoken to the wife. I personally disagree with Art very strongly on this point.
4) So the answer then is to simply wait. Until the wife either submits to this huge decision or hears from God herself, they are to sit tight. God is not in a hurry.
5) But imho, it would be wrong for the husband to leave his family and it would be wrong for him to "force" through coercion or threats or religious abuse to make her comply. Both of those scenarios will end in disaster.

P
proudpapa

There are two kinds of leaders, the one earns respect by loving and proving themselves to those whom they lead by habitually making loving and wise choices, the respect they earn and recieve is inward and manifest itself outwardly. Those whom they lead over will follow them where ever they lead because they relieze that there leader has there best intrest at heart and would lay down their life down for them.

The other type of leader is the tyrant type, The respect that he recieves is purly positional, he demands not earns this respect. He maintains this respect only by manipulation and fear. and the respect he recieves is purly outward and never inward.
In the marriage scenerio he is the type that will take his wife to those verses in the Bible that talk about how a wife is to respect her husband and guilt trip her into compliance. the one that earned his respect instead of demanding it never has to do that.

edit:add

S
sermonindex

This is really actually pretty strange to me because I never said anything about leaving family behind? I think just sticking with the scripture, the apostolic witness, church history, missionary history, etc. Will prove out to be the most beneficial way to approach all of these issues outside of human reasoning. A lot of what's being argued Against is straw men here anyways.

S
sermonindex

And I'm not arguing any of the points on respect and servant leadership. Totally agree. But even still, ultimately the man "is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church", so even though he must lead with understanding, respect & servanthood, it is still his responsibility to lead & the wife's to submit & follow. You can't explain away these very clear scriptural principles.

S
sermonindex

People explain away "very clear scriptural principles" all the time. It's called "mixture". They mix something "reasonable" with the scriptures and then you have a new definition of the scripture which they convince themselves God intended.

That is how men lead people astray. They believe their interpretation with all their heart and believe it came from God.

S
sermonindex

by savannah on 2016/5/27 8:43:08

Are these three comments scripturally supported, or are they merely your opinion?

1) "...why should they not be allowed to disagree that their husbands had been called?" Are you equating being "allowed to disagree" with her 'refusing to submit and follow'?

2) "Most wives know their husbands much more than they know themselves."

3) "I do not accept that God will call a married man without letting his wife know of the calling to the mission field. That idea is reducing her to a piece of equipment."

Experience understood according to Biblical principle. Are you saying that there is a verse for everything? A woman needs to know that it is God's will and not a mistake her husband is making when it is such a massive disruption and severly impacts their children's lives.

If God does not let both parties know, there is a greater chance of a mistake. Many give up their places as missionaries during the first few years I believe. Did they make a mistake or is God fickle?

S
sermonindex

1 Peter 3
1Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives”” 2when they see your respectful and pure conduct. 3Do not let your adorning be external””the braiding of hair, the wearing of gold, or the putting on of clothing”” 4but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. 5For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their husbands, 6as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

S
sermonindex

Titus 2
3xOlder women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

S
sermonindex

brenda7 on 2016/5/28 13:28:15

by savannah on 2016/5/27 8:43:08


Are these three comments scripturally supported, or are they merely your opinion?

There is Not a verse for everything. That is why we have the Holy Spirit.

S
sermonindex

Amen Julius, when I frantically scour the scriptures for an answer to everything I usually end up "missing" the Holy Spirit when He speaks to me. This is what happened to the Pharisees as well. Husbands end up abusing their wives, elders end up lording it over their congregations and leaders of movements end up burning their detractors at the stake. All because they had a scripture for everything but ignored the voice of the Lord who is the Spirit.

S
sermonindex

Amen, Mark.

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

S
sermonindex

Just For the record, I don't abuse my wife (I try to love & to serve her), I don't "lord it over" anyone, & I've never burned anyone at the stake, nor do I plan to (but those who did actually get burned at the stake were done so because they believed & lived according to the Word of God & not the traditions of men - FYI). But the scriptures I quoted are still the Word of God. And they seem to pretty much say what they say. Why is it that if you state & believe just merely what the Word says on a matter, it seems that everyone jumps out of the box with "well, oh yeah, there was someone once who didn't have the Holy Spirit who took that scripture to a wrong understanding & extreme in a Phariseeiacal spirit & did something you're totally not advocating, but I'd better warn against here"?? Lol!

Those scriptures (the ones I stated in the last thread this was jumped off from Christ in the Gospels & the doctrinal epistle ones I just stated in this thread) are all still true & still mean what they say. Ultimately, it is a man's job to lead his family spiritually under the headship of Christ, it is the woman's job to submit to that leadership as unto the Lord, a man must love His wife, everyone must love Christ first above all other affections, it's a man's job to teach the other people in the congregational fellowships not a woman's, but the older women are to teach the younger women & somevery predominant things they are to teach are listed in Titus 2, it's the children's job to obey & respect their parents, etc. Even though there are extremes or where someone used these passages wrongly for abuse, that doesn't negate the plain stated truth of God's order in the home in scripture repeatedly. Any attempt to change the order/structure of God's ordained structure of authority in the home is to supplant & explain away through human reasoning the order God Himself set up in the home.

You might can take that out of context & think I'm saying something I'm not, but the Word of God is still true & His ways are still right. Adam should have been leading & not following his wife's lead (at Satan's delight in questioning God's Word) & notice God didn't go to Eve, but straight to Adam. Ahab got away from the Lord's instructions and let his wife & her idolatrous Canaanite practices lead Israel & look how that turned out. And there is ample instruction for God's "order" of authority under Christ in the NT for good reason. The fact that we all know a man that was heavy handed or took something to some wrong extreme doesn't nullify the Word of God & overturn the plain spoken commands of scripture.

And so I return to Sarah & Abraham & the NT commentary on that & say that the Lord may speak clearly to a husband & a wife. But if He doesn't & He speaks clearly to a husband who speaks to His wife, then while the strings of roots of modern feminism don't like it, the fact is, the Husband is to lead & the wife is to submit, trust the Lord, & not fear. It's really quite simple, though not always easy. On the flip side, the husband is to "live with his wife in an understanding way, considering that she is the weaker vessel" & to love and serve her. But that doesn't mean catering to her fears ultimately over the Lord's call & His Gospel, but gently showing her that His ways and call are always right & that His order is that the Husband "is the head of the wife as Christ is the church." Of a wife feels differently, it could be just fear (which a husband should help her see & abandon/overrule with faith/love), or feminism/control (which a husband & the church should be teaching on and addressing honestly from the scriptures) or just rebellion. Or any combination. A Husband should be in prayer, willing to teach her, gentle & patient, etc. but ultimately, God has still placed leadership in the home in the man's lap. No one can change that & it not be a problem before God.

God Bless,
Jeff

S
sermonindex

And I'm not frantically scouring the scriptures for an answer either. These are lost teachings in the church for the most part today in America sadly. My wife would be the first to tell you that feminism & control had deep roots in her heart & she didn't even know it & it affected her greatly, our marriage, etc. My impatience with her back in those days affected our relationship too. We were both accountable for not doing our part rightly under God. God used my part to break me & make me a gentler husband & more loving one towards her. God used her part to show her she was an inwardly rebellious false convert & bring her to himself truly once & for all through the new birth! We will be married for 18 years in 2 days & there are a lot of scars, a lot of clear markers of God's grace, & a lot of hard learned lessons along the way. But the fact that God calls me to lead is SOBERING & HUMBLING (makes me tremble at the seriousness of it) & the fact that God calls her to submit to my leadership under Christ makes her trust Him more (especially as imperfect as I am! 😊). This isn't looking for a scripture to justify myself like some Pharisee. This is just NT doctrine the church understood clearly for over 1950+ years.

S
sermonindex

Jeff

Brother forgive me but you seem to see things as black and white.

I have no problems with the thought that a man is to be the leader in the home. But everyone is liable to make mistakes and they frequently do on the mission field and end up back home again within two years l believe.

Disobedience is one thing, but why on earth would God not let the woman in on such a huge thing as leaving everything, family and friends to go to another country? If both are in agreement then there is a safeguard.

Why would a husband's position as leader be compromised if his wife is called personally as well? She will need a very strong sense of God's will for her when the trials come.

Looks like the subject is hitting a raw nerve for you so l am backing out of the discussion.

S
sermonindex

Not hitting a raw nerve at all.

I'm only being black and white about what the scriptures are black and white on.

"Leaving Friends & Family" frankly kinda speaks to what Jesus is talking about in the 3 synoptic Gospels & the epistles are saying (&'what I said). Human reasoning and other "examples where people missed it" don't change God's Word. I'm sorry, they just don't.

God bless you sister,
In Him,
Jeff

S
savannah

Jeff,

Thank you for providing the Scriptural support.

To say more will only lead to mere human reasoning rather than being led by the spirit. Jesus said, my words are spirit and my words are life.

I know a man who once approached his brother about his daughters provocative dress and conduct. And the brother accused him of lusting after his daughter.

My question has been answered...and then some!

S
sermonindex

No worries.

Sorry, but I'm not following the connection between the OP topic/subject & your last post life experience? But I just started drinking my morning coffee, so it certainly could just be me. 😊

Anyways, God Bless!
Jeff

S
sermonindex

"God chose me because I am weak enough....He trains somebody to be quiet enough, & little enough, & then He uses Him."

Hudson Taylor, who suffered from depression & poor health, lost his wife & four of his children, yet sowed the seeds of hundreds of churches throughout China in His weakness & founded the "China Inland Mission".

S
sermonindex

"Sorry, but I'm not following the connection between the OP topic/subject & your last post life experience? "

Savannah, why speak in riddles? If you have something to say just speak the truth in love towards others or say nothing at all. Cryptic riddles leave others wondering what you really meant to say about another persons heart but did not have the courage to say it. If you cannot say something plainly then it should not be said at all.

S
sermonindex

"I'm only being black and white about what the scriptures are black and white on. "

Brother Jeff, I think you misunderstood Brenda. The scriptures are not black and white about what a man should do if he feels called to the mission field and his wife and family do not. He must be led by the Spirit in these matters and not led by the letter. To judge each situation merely on the basis of scripture is being "black and white" and suspends the need for the Holy Spirit to be in our lives at all. This is the same trap that some of the reformers fell into such as John Calvin. Which led him to seeing things very black and white and you know where that ended up:-(

This discussion is archived and closed to new replies. Start a new discussion to carry the subject on.
Archived
1 of 29 posts

Everything we make is available for free because of a generous community of supporters.

Donate