Man alive. How did I ever get along with five?

When I was a kid growing up in the age of black and white TV I always looked forward to 4 p.m. . Because on the weekday this is when the cartoons cane on. And in the late fifties and early sixties a lot of commercials were feared for kids that watched the cartoons during that time. I remember the commercials for Slinky, the spring that would go down the stairs. Then of course there were the commercials for Bosco and Ovaltine. That would encourage your taste bud to ask Mom for Ovaltine and Bosco chocolate mix.

One of the commercials that really got my attention was the sticky fingers commercial. This was about a finger that one would hold in their right in between their index and forefinger. You could shoot little bullets or darts out of this finger. (This is before the age of politically correct toys). You could write secret messages with his finger. And they were probably other things you could do with it that escaped my mind right now. But the little jungo of the commercial was,

...Man oh man, how did I ever get along with five...

But now some of you are probably wondering brother Blaine what is the relevance of this in a Christian forum? Why does trip down memory lane from an aging baby boomer?

Has anyone ever wondered when reading the book of Acts how the early church ever got along without a complete Bible? Indeed the early church did not have the completed New Testament? To the best of my memory the church did not get the complete Bible until around the mid 300s. Give or take.

Yet when we read the book of Acts which covers about the first 30 years of the first-century church. We see the gospel going out and marvelous signs and wonders. We see the gospel going out bringing many to saving faith and life in the Lord Jesus Christ. All of this done without a complete Bible. All of this done without a complete New Testament. We see the Holy Spirit working to bring people to saving faith and life in the Lord Jesus Christ.

So how did the first century Church do it? How did they do it without the completed scriptures?

I am posting this question because there has been some discussion on the Mount of Transfiguration thread about the use of the Bible. So since we have the completed Bible. Are we any better off than the Church of Acts? Or is the Church of Acts somehow substandard to the church in America because we have the completed scriptures? One would have to wonder exactly how the Church of Acts accomplish what they did without the methodologies and the Bible's we have today?

Let me take the question one step further. What about the persecuted Church? There is some parts of restricted Nations that did not have access to a Bible or a new testament. But they do have access to maybe portions of scripture. Yet we see the Holy Spirit operating in a dynamic that we don't see here in America. How is this happening?

Forum I would like to know your thoughts. And please I do not wish to see this threat locked down. So let us keep our post respectful toward one another. I know some of you have passionate thoughts about the Bible. But again let us keep the posts respectful toward one another.

So exactly how in the first 30 years of the first-century church they accomplished what they did without a completed Bible?

Respectfully posted.

Because their spiritual eyes were open and the Messiah and God's plan, recorded throughout the OT was revealed to them.

Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

What scriptures do you think Jesus "opened" to the disciples?

In addition, they had the letters of the Apostles and were a culture that spoke a lot to one another and transmitted the letters via the spoken word.

They were always in the marketplace and meeting in homes repeating and reciting the revelation of Jesus Christ to one another.

Blaine,
Yes, obviously we are blessed to have the full Word of God, the book of Romans to help us understand the Gospel, the Gospels to know the words of Jesus, Revelation to know how Jesus dealt with & spoke to the early churches in the east in that day & also how it all will end one day. We have the epistles for encouragement, instruction, exhortation, doctrine, right teaching, etc. But yes, the fact is, when it says "the Bereans were more noble...they searched the scriptures to see if these things were true.." And we applaud them & hold them up as our example, even they had at that time only the Old Testament scriptures to be checking against. And there are countless examples of people even in our modern day in the east being radically Born Again without one page of scripture. But it's also interesting how much many of them cherish/ed getting even a single page from a Bible! This should remind us we serve a Living God, who is a Spirit, who transforms us into converted Born Again saints not by just by decisional conversion only based on what "we know", but through a SUPERNATURAL rebirth of His Spirit & His doing.
Don't misunderstand - the Word of God is of utmost importance! We DO have access to it now. "To whom much is given, much will be required." And we have been given unlimited access (affordably & conveniently), online Bible apps, etc., etc. So let us cherish His Word as "A lamp unto our feet & a light unto our path" (Psalm 100 I believe), & let us sow this Word into others, & help get it into the hands of those without such free access, particular in the parts of the world where it is banned &/or despised. But let us remember we were Born Again (if we are), we live & move & have our being, & we were washed (if we were) in the blood of the Risen Living Lamb of God, not just by mentally assenting to some doctrinal facts (true they are) about Jesus we read in the Bible. The New Birth is a deposit of God's Spirit within us as we come to Him in faith!
I have heard many stories of those without Bibles praying and praying and God getting His Word in thee hands trough supernatural means. So let not one side say the Bible is unimportant or irrelevant (or be misinterpreted as saying such) & let not the other side say or act as if having a Bible is more important than having the Living Christ living within by the Spirit!
God Bless,
Jeff

Brothers good thoughts brought up in your posts

They HEARD and received from various sources (Apostles, Teachers, etc) to one another. They discovered the riches of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament when their spiritual eyes were opened by the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Much of what they learned, they HEARD. They had "ears to hear".

Php_4:9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and HEARD, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

Col_1:4 Since we HEARD of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

Col_1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye HEARD before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col_1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye HEARD of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Col_1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we HEARD it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

Col_1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have HEARD, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1Th_2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye HEARD of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

2Ti_1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast HEARD of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

2Ti_2:2 And the things that thou hast HEARD of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

Heb_2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have HEARD, lest at any time we should let them slip.

Heb_2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that HEARD him;

My brother so hear your heart. I wish I could offer you encouragement. I too am in the same situation. I have been without a church home here and Little Rock for a number of years. And yes like you I am in the middle of the Southern Christian culture as you. There's a Southern Baptist Church on every corner. But our hearts cry. Where are the Jesus followers?

Perhaps the remnant meeting that Greg is encouraging may causes us to network more with one another.

Brother feel free to write or call me. My contact information is below this post. At least perhaps we can encourage one another by email or phone.

Brother Blaine
pwprayercall@gmail.com
501.256.6407

"I am completely broken up over the seemingly impenetrable wall of self-deceit and worldliness in the American church. In our home, we are doing what we sincerely heard the Lord tell us to do, but we've grown from 12 or so to about 6 in the last 2 years. God gave us a word months ago -- be patient. We feel A LITTLE like we imagine the first disciples MAY have felt -- being told to wait but not fully understanding what for. We don't know what we're waiting on really looks like. So, we are asking ourselves if we have heard God correctly."

Brother Tim, this passage jumped out at me from your post. I do not want to sidetrack this thread from the OP so if you feel led please shoot me your email address so we can discuss privately what you are experiencing. I believe this is not only common but what God is allowing to happen. We are in a transitional phase right now (the body of Christ) and that requires much waiting. Contact me and I will share more with you about our own house church experience. Blessings!

But David if I remember correctly those were the Jewish leaders that were coming to Paul. If so. Then it would make sense that he would use Moses and the law to preach Jesus to them. For they would already be familiar with the Torah.

How would Paul deal with the Gentiles? How would he preach Jesus to them? Acts 28:30-31 says,

... And he stayed two full years in his own rented quarters and was welcoming all who came to him, preaching the kingdom of God and teaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ with all open this, unhindered...

That would have been one marvelous Bible study to be in on if I could call it such. I wonder what Paul would have been teaching and perhaps even demonstrating?

Posted just wondering.

Yeah,
Amen. I can concur with many of the thoughts shared as one who has been in a house fellowship for the last 4.5 years too (our first run at one was about 10 years ago now). But there is a waiting period going on in secret places right now in the western church. I believe that with All my heart.

And Julius,
I tried to explain I wasn't minimizing the hearing of the Word in my post. I as one who was born again in a solitary cell, with no preacher, etc. just me, a Bible, the present spirit of God, & a cry to heaven of surrender answered with a powerful tangible manifestation of God's Spirit & light in that cell, peace flowing like a river for the first time in 23 years, & a changed heart. Not minimizing the Word or the hearing. Not AT ALL! Just that the opposite extreme sometimes places the reading of the scriptures on equal plane as the manifest presence of the Spirit of the Living Christ. I know the Logos (written Word) is the life infused testimony of the Rhema (revelatory Word) & the Pneuma (Spirit) by which we are Born again

Jesus explained all the typologies in the OT about Himself (throughout OT), the Kingdom of God (many books), Salvation (Genesis), Baptism (Genesis), Resurrection (Job), Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Joel), etc., which were formerly concealed from most men. Just as He open the eyes of the disciples on the Emmaus road, He is available to open our eyes, too.

And remember Saul of Tarsus didn't run into a preacher or a Bible (who knew "the Bible" of that time ie the Law & Prophets by heart better than anyone), but the living, risen Christ Himself! That's not minimizing the truths concerning the Word. That's just a fact. Many Muslims are having the same experience by dreams & visions. So, if you're concerned about their need for discipleship after that (which I also am) instead of aetherially theologically mentally debating it until the cows come home, pray, intercede, & sow into ministries that are providing that Bible & that Discipleship teaching ministry, amen?! 😊 Global Catalytic Ministries is one such ministry. Iran Alive is another. There are MANY others. Let's be doers in the kingdom work God is doing in the Muslim world at this great time of harvest on God's time clock! If He's going to them HIMSELF, & thousands upon thousands of Muslims are being swept into the Kingdom as never before, it's pretty important on the heart of God & sovereignly part of His plan at this hour, wouldn't you agree?

I actually found a short YouTube video of that kids commercial. It was 6 finger. Not sticky fingers. You can Google six finger commercial. The jingle actually went man alive, how did I ever get along with five. Bear in mind I don't think such a toy would be sold today. But this is what I grew up with.

Okay don't mean to detract from the discussion. But just wanted to take a short detour down memory lane.

Back to the thread.

To be CRYSTAL CLEAR, I was never saying nor implying "we don't need the scriptures". I was merely responding to what I perceived that I hear a lot which is basically saying or implying one's testimony/conversion is questionable if it didn't come through the reading of the Bible or hearing preaching, but through a dream or vision from Jesus Himself. That's a fallacious argument. Paul's testimony I belief is proof of this, as is the fruit we see in the Muslim world at this time. Of course they need the Word as soon after and as much as possible, but God is God & who can question His ways if He decides to come to them in a dream or vision Himself & bring them to Himself? That's all I was addressing - FYI. And I'm not saying that by hearing the preaching of the Word or the reading of the written Word isn't the "normative" way most come to Christ throughout time, but just saying to then take that to the next extreme and say someone "CAN'T" be saved dreams & visions by Jesus Himself is just not the case. I know some hyper-cessationists take it to this extreme too. But in a struggle to uphold their traditions (cessationism) they deny in error ways that God Himsef sometimes has & sometimes still does move & work to bring people to Himself! 😊🙏🏻☝️💪🏻
God Bless,
Jeff

Saints let us keep in mind that many in the first century church where iliterate. Let us also keep in mind that there was a very limited access to the word of God. Realizing that the word of God then was the Torah. So unless it was a Messianic Jewish congregation the Torah would not have been available to the average Gentile congregation. A few of the apostolic letters we're floating around. But the written word as we know it was not readily available.

Yet the early church seem to be vibrant in their witness of Christ. The early church seem to have power.

So the question is how did they do what they did without the complete Canon of scripture?

It is not the canonized text we really need but the message that the apostles brought (and they learned from Jesus). Canonization was just a necessary tool to ensure that we still can hear/read the same message. I would gladly give up my privilege of reading the bible if I could have Paul teaching in my city every day for a year, and could have someone read his letters to me. Paul knew the Torah, I would ask anything about it from him. I would talk to eyewitnesses still living that were present in the multitudes when Jesus taught them, etc.

I would also receive teaching from others that Paul recommends, that's why there are so many recommendations in the epistles. Many converts in the first century were Jews who very carefully preserved their beloved Torah.

edited to add quote:
Galatians 1:8
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed."

Actually only a fraction have been preserved for us of all the things that the contemporaries of Jesus saw, heard and knew.
John 21:25
"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

Edited obvious typo

Julius said:
"Jesus explained all the typologies in the OT about Himself (throughout OT), the Kingdom of God (many books), Salvation (Genesis), Baptism (Genesis), Resurrection (Job), Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Joel), etc., which were formerly concealed from most men. Just as He open the eyes of the disciples on the Emmaus road, He is available to open our eyes, too."

There is a slight difference between the Emmaus events and the today's revelations to Christians. Jesus appeared to those disciples physically in his resurrected body. We would give hard time to those apologists who try to prove Jesus was real and came in the flesh using eyewitness reports if we say that someone's subjective revelation carries the same weight. I believe this is the reason God wanted the gospel to spread this specific way (through the apostles). The first information about Jesus had to come from the time and place where Jesus was on the earth in the flesh. (the only exception to this was Paul but his message was authenticated by the apostles who were with Jesus.)
edited for clarity

Dear sister before I continue my post. I need to see where you're coming from. Do you hold to the doctrine of "cessationism". Main proponent of this doctrine would be Dr. John MacArthur. Those who hold to such doctrine say that the Holy Spirit no longer works in the way he did in Acts. They also discredit the moving of the Holy Spirit among the Muslims. Do you hold to this doctrine?

No, I am not cessationist but we are not sent to lay the foundation of the church.I do not have enough information about the Muslims so I don't know about that. John MacArthur is a great Christian man but I am not a follower of him, I am also not Calvinist.

Zsuzsanna,

I read all of your recent posts and do agree with you. Being present with Jesus on the Emmaus Road or listening to the Apostles and having them minister the Word of God not only in word but also in deed would be wonderful. The Apostles were not able to duplicate their calling but through the ministry of the Word they were able to birth many spiritual children who learned from them how to live and how to die for Christ. Some followed the Lord while others did not. Today, Christ uses us as His living epistles and the written Word is a precious gift and I would not trade it for anything.

from Blane:

Realizing that the word of God then was the Torah.

It was the letters of the Apostles, too.

So unless it was a Messianic Jewish congregation the Torah would not have been available to the average Gentile congregation. A few of the apostolic letters we're floating around. But the written word as we know it was not readily available.

Yet the early church seem to be vibrant in their witness of Christ. The early church seem to have power.

So the question is how did they do what they did without the complete Canon of scripture?

Blane, some Gentile churches such as the Corinthian church had some real problems. And you can read the letters to the seven churches to read some of the problems other churches had.

The early church was made up of men "of like passions", such as you and I and nothing was automatic. Even in the presence of the Apostles there were many that fell away from the Lord or abandoned their brothers. Somehow we think that being in the presence of the Apostles we would be much better Christians and maybe we would, but where "the rubber meets the road" in our lives, is how we respond to the indwelling Lord Jesus, each day in our lives? I am not of the opinion that we have less than those in the early church who did not see Jesus. We all must live by faith not by sight.

2Tim 4:16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.

We should also be careful how we use the word Torah today and understand what it means. If you think the word Torah means the entire Old Testament, it doesn't.

It is composed of the Five Books of Moses and also contains the 613 commandments (mitzvot) and the Ten Commandments.

The writings of the Torah are also part of the Tanach (Hebrew Bible), which contains not only the Five Books of Moses (Torah) but 39 other important Jewish texts. The word "Tanach” is actually an acronym: "T” is for Torah, "N” is for Nevi’iim (Prophets) and "Ch” is for Ketuvim (Writings).

Julius said:
"Today, Christ uses us as His living epistles"
I don't think we are epistles. Epistles are the letters written by the apostles. These belong to the foundation. We are the building but not the foundation.
To best preserve the original information even in modern offices they use a master copy carefully kept in a file cabinet and that is what's copied when they need new copies. They do not copy from copies because that would distort the information. The the books of NT are like this master copy. God preserved the historical record and teaching of Jesus to which all the believers throughout the ages can be directed. This is essential for our life not a wonderful addition.
It is not in the making but finished.

If we do not love the Lord with the whole heart, soul and mind, we hate Him. The scriptures are black and white about this. God made us to love Him in that way and if we are deceived by Satan to think that there is no God or that our God cannot be trusted entirely and we do not believe 100% in His promises, then we hate Him. "He who is not for Me is against Me".

I believe that this anger of men is the reason why Christ had to suffer. When I first was led to Christ, without any scripture or knowledge of the Bible, this was the uppermost thing that was revealed to me - that Jesus had died on the cross and suffered for MY sins.

It was what Peter preched in his first sermon. "This is what you have done to the Son of God".

It is man whom God appeases.

Docs said:
"If we are now witnessing to someone out of the NT and we can unflinchingly claim that what we are showing them from the NT was prophesied many many long years before it actualy happened then that can exponentially increase the impact the word has in my opinion. God said all these things before they even happened and God is then glorified ia the God who knows and reveals the end from the beginning before it even happens. I am coming to believe more strongly that we put ourselves at a disadvantage if we keep our witnessing of Christ coming from the NT only. What a great prophetic symmetry of prophecy and fulfillment the Old and New Testament form."
Amen.
The prophecy and the proof that Christ indeed came in the flesh is powerful. Our personal revelation needs to be authenticated by these scriptures just as Pauls revelation was authenticated by those who had been with Jesus.

Hello Gary

So why do you think that the Lord commanded it and even made it the first commandment? Is He loving giving us commandments we cannot keep and would need therefore to be constantly repenting of in sorrow?

No, He gives us a pure heart that can love Him perfectly.

John 13:6-10

6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?

7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.

8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.

10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

John 15:3-4
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Brothers and sisters I would like to thank you for posting on this thread. I have read your posts with interest. And I thank you for your contributions to my question. Albeit posted from a humorous kid's commercial. Yet the question still remains. How did the first century church get the gospel out to the eastern end of the Mediterranean in the first 30 years of its existence. As a matter of fact the Apostle Paul considered the fact that his work was done in the eastern end of the Mediterranean that he was looking at going all the way over to Spain. So how did the first century Church do it without a completed Bible. And by implication without seminaries and Mission organizations. Yet in reading your posts I'm surprised that no one has touched upon the Person who is the dynamic of Acts.

Brothers and sisters at the end of Matthew Jesus gives His disciples, and by implication us, a commission. We call this the Great Commission. In Matthew 28:18-20 we read,

... All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I Am With you always, even to the end of the age...

This must have seen the monumental task for a group of ragtag disciples that wondered how were they going to go out and make disciples of all the nations. Yet Jesus gave this promise at the end of Matthew 28 when he said and lo I Am With You always even to the end of the age.

The disciples must have wondered how would Jesus be with them since he was resurrected. Consider now Acts 1:8,

... but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you and you shall be my Witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth...

It was by being baptized in the Holy Spirit. It was by receiving His power. It was by Jesus Himself being in the hearts of the disciples that they were able to go out and to be the witnesses even to the remotest part of the Earth.

One who encountered Christ was the Apostle Paul. One who knew the power of the Spirit and the grace of God was the Apostle Paul. In 1 Cor. 15:9-10 we read,

... For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me...

In reading this passage one would think that Paul is making a pretty audacious and almost arrogant claim. That he is saying he labored more than all of the apostles put together. And these were men who had walked and talked with Jesus. Yet here is a testimony of our brother in Romans 15:17-29

... Therefore in Christ Jesus I have found reason for boasting in things pertaining to God. For I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles by word and deed, in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit; so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as you lyric um I have fully preached the gospel of Christ...

And then Paul goes on to further state in Romans 15:23,

... but now, with no further place for me in these regions, and since I have had for many years a longing to come to you whenever I go to Spain---

Brothers and sisters Paul had already completed his assignment in the Eastern end of the Mediterranean. Being the Visionary that Paul was he was looking to take the gospel all the way to the Western end of the Mediterranean period one would almost wonder how far Paul would have gone had he not been martyred in Rome.

Notice that Paul had preached the gospel through the power of Jesus in Him, that by his Holy Spirit. Paul tells the Corinthians thay his words were not with wise and persuasive words. He did not come with the superiority of speech. But his message was with a demonstration of the Spirit's power. This is recorded in the first few verses of 1st Corinthians 2.

Brothers and sisters Paul was preaching Christ crucified. This is what the disciples preached. They preached the death burial, and resurrection of Jesus. This is the gospel Paul lays out in 1st Corinthians 15 in the first few verses.

If we wanted to see what the apostles were preaching look in the first few chapters of Acts. Peter in his first sermon definitely lays out the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Under the power of the Holy Spirit he boldly tells the Jews that they had crucified Christ and put him on the cross. Whereas before this fishermen had denied Jesus In the Flesh before a servant girl. Now under the power of the Holy Spirit Peter is declaring to all of the Jews and even later to the Jewish leadership, the Sanhedrin, they crucified Christ.

At the risk of being controversial I want to say that Peter and Paul were preaching the vross of Christ. They were not preaching Moses. But under the power of the Holy Spirit they were setting forth the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This was the message and still is the message of the church that was birthed at Pentecost.

Brothers and sisters I apologize for the lengthy post. But suffice to say the early church had accomplished the work of preaching the gospel at least in the Eastern end of the Mediterranean because they were baptized in the Holy Spirit. This is why they were able to fulfill the Great Commission without the use of the cannon.

Simply my thoughts as gleamed from scripture.

Docs,
You make some great points and I have really enjoyed reading what you've written in this thread (& the thread as a whole for the most part too). I know on the "I Met Messiah" & "I found Shalom" short video testimonies that One for Israel Ministries put on YouTube, for a great many of the Jews who came to Christ, it was Isaiah 53 in particular primarily that the Lord used to show them the truth of Jesus as the Messiah having been the suffering servant who died for their sins. Anyways, as I usually do, I wanted to say that I really enjoyed your contributions to the thread here!
God Bless,
Jeff

Hi Gary

No l have fallen off the wagon at times and began to trust in my flesh but we will leave it there.

We make a grave error if we interpret scripture according to our experience rather than by the inner light of the Spirit that makes us long for what is true, and fail to take clear words as they are spoken without distorting them by misinterpretations elsewhere.

by Tozsu on 2016/6/3 2:21:33

Julius said:
"Today, Christ uses us as His living epistles"
I don't think we are epistles. Epistles are the letters written by the apostles. These belong to the foundation. We are the building but not the foundation.
To best preserve the original information even in modern offices they use a master copy carefully kept in a file cabinet and that is what's copied when they need new copies. They do not copy from copies because that would distort the information. The the books of NT are like this master copy. God preserved the historical record and teaching of Jesus to which all the believers throughout the ages can be directed. This is essential for our life not a wonderful addition.
It is not in the making but finished.

Hi Tozsu,

I was simply referring to the fact that our lives "are living epistles", a metaphor that Paul was referring to.

2Cor 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

I think I am losing track of what the core subject is here. I am reading things from you and Brenda that I agree with. What is the current disagreement?

by brothagary on 2016/6/3 10:05:17

Paul said were given to show us and convict us of sin ,,,,Jesus was great at doing it to in his preaching ,,,be perfect as God your father is perfect ,,,,,,,,try living up to that standard ,,,,,,,, well Jesus did ,he fullfilled the law ,the first and last that wlill perfectly do it , tho we try ,we fall short ,it humbles us keep Christs on the throun and us at his feet where we belong at this day and age ......

Gary, you try to fulfill the law? Why? You are fallen from grace if you try to fulfill the law because in making the law your focus you are trying to live by it instead of Christ. Not being able to follow the law is not what is supposed to humble us. Even if you could obey the law perfectly, it will never justify you in God's eyes.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW.

The righteousness of God is completely APART from the LAW. It is JESUS CHRIST.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Christ is our righteousness. You are called to walk by faith which worketh by love.

1 Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in CHRIST JESUS, who of God IS MADE UNTO US wisdom, and RIGHTEOUSNESS, and sanctification, and redemption:

The righteousness of the law will only be fulfilled in you as you walk after the Spirit.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Many think "walking after the Spirit", means they are focused on keeping the law. That is not what Romans 8:4 is saying and many don't understand what "walking after the Spirit", means.

Gary

For a long time after l came to Christ l struggled with sin, the worst one being anger. I don't mean that l did anything wrong when l felt angry, but it would wash over me whenever anyone did something bad to me and the scriptures said that if l am angry with someone l hate them.

The scriptures speak this way and are black and white over such things. After a few very upsetting circumstances and lack of answer to desperate prayers, yes, l admitted that there was anger and disappointment towards God that l felt ashamed of and did not want to admit.

It stemmed from the childhood abuse l had experienced but it brought me to my knees in deep repentance when God showed me that He had paid a great price for me and had the right to bring anything in my life that He chose even though it made no sense.

Since that day l have never felt any negativity towards God as He showed me the key to overcoming and by doing so healed many deep hurts so that l could trust Him entirely.

He shed the love of God n my heart and after that l loved Him with all my heart soul and mind and it has caused countless relational problems when family know l am entirely devoted to Him, when they want to come first even if they never put me above their interests. A Satan thing no doubt.

But the scriptures are clear that if we do not love Him passionately like this, and only respect or fear Him then we hate Him.

Gary l do not believe in sinless perfection meaning that one can never sin again after being saved or we are not Christians. We are always just one step away from falling. I do believe that we can chose whether to sin of not but require the power of God and the blood of Christ constantly cleansing us from sin, to remain in Him by faith in the finished work on the Cross and crucifixion with Him.

I have walked in the flesh and walked in the Spirit at various times. It is not a matter of believing certain doctrines or fooling myself when l am sinning in thought word or deed.

No l am not saying that. There have been countless saints who have done so.

24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
24:4 He that has clean hands, and a pure heart; who has not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
24:6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek your face, O Jacob. Selah.
24:7 Lift up your heads, O all of you gates; and be all of you lift up, all of you everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

The Psalmist is quite clear: the text is speaking of those who seek the Lord not the Lord Himself. In various places in scripture we are told that we will receive a pure heart and cleansing by the HOLY Spirit and which the whole of the OT speaks of, for His people, the holiness of Jesus imparted to them.

Those who seek are required to turn from all sin that they are aware of to show they are serious, hence the text "has not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully" and not never ever as you have inserted.

The text also says that the person shall receive salvation which us not Christ.

I do not believe it is acceptable for a man to sin every day: we are to walk in holiness, and hopefully for the rest of our lives but as Wesley says, falls happen. I did not fall because of sin, it was due to failing to depend entirely on the Lord over something. We are not in agreement about sanctification.

Gary, I don't have time now but will explain what Jesus meant by what He said when He said, "Be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is". That verse came at the end of the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus was contrasting many things of God with the "righteousness" of the religionists (pharisees). They manipulated and controlled people with their version of the law.

I will leave you with this and come back, later.

YOU MUST HAVE WHAT HE IS (LIFE) TO BE WHAT HE WAS (PERFECT)
By: Major W. Ian Thomas

For godliness is not the consequence of your capacity to imitate God, but the consequence of His capacity to reproduce Himself in you; not self-righteousness, but Christ-righteousness; the righteousness which is by faith ­ a faith which by renewed dependence upon God releases His divine action, to restore the marred image of the Invisible God. It is not inactivity, but Christ-activity; God in action accomplishing the divine end through human personality - never reducing man to the status of a cabbage, but exalting man to the stature of king! "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:17).

At first sight this might seem to offer to you the possibility of sinless perfection as the result of spiritual regeneration, but this is far from being the case; for it is only your faith and your obedience which allow Him to be in you now what He was then (perfect) - and you will be what He was then only to the degree in which you allow Him to be in you what He is now (perfect)!

All of the Father was available to all of the Son, because by His faith-love relationship, all of the Son was available to all of the Father, and this constituted His perfect manhood; and the availability of the Son to you will be in the degree of your availability to the Son, because of your faith-love relationship to Him!

From: The Mystery of Godliness.

Amen, StirItUp,

God's will for us is to **experience** righteousness in our lives, not just say "we are righteous in Christ".