Apostasy vs the doctrines of once saved always saved & losing salvation

2 Thessalonians 2

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2.htm

I have been struggling with the doctrine of the Apostasy versus the doctrine of once saved always saved. If as christians, the anti christ talks about a great falling away before the time of the antichrist. The word is apostasia in the greek and it is used in acts 2:2 as rebellion. I do not hold to the pre tribulation view that this passage according to Dr Thomas Ice that this is the rapture it is not and it does not fit with the context of the passage.

One thing that I can determine is the church in the west is not going through a revival at the moment. We look at denominations like the methodists in which John Wesley started it supports Gay Marriage & so many heretical doctrines and the Interfaith Movement http://www.methodist.org.uk/
Baptist Union it is heavily into the Interfaith movement this does not mean that all baptists support this
http://www.baptist.org.uk/Groups/220648/Inter_Faith_Engagement.aspx

Anglican Interfaith document
http://nifcon.anglicancommunion.org/
URC Church Interfaith document
http://www.urc.org.uk/mission/interfaith-relations

http://www.jointpublicissues.org.uk

These guys are part of the World Council of Churches
http://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches

The reason is that you have scriptures such as Corinthians

1 Corinthians 6:9
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Doctrinally you cannot askew what is the church? As most of these groups or people in these denominations do not believe say these positions.

I do not believe in works salvation as it states in scripture

Ephesians 2:8 KJV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/ephesians/2-8.html

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 11
1 I say then*, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid*. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew*. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more* of works: otherwise grace is no more* grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more* grace: otherwise work is no more* work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare*, and a trap*, and a stumblingblock*, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then*, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid*: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as** I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches*, take heed lest* he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell*, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my* covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes*: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as* ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

I believe that all Israel will be saved, This scripture denotes if the Israelites fell of because of unbelief how about the church.

My problem is when you look at say the 2 Thes passage do you denote that the people who are in apostasy were never saved or do you say they were never christian, this is also linked with the antichrist coming out of the apostasy. In Daniel the antichrist comes out from the Roman Empire

Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It is interesting how most of the churches are support the EU as a christian it come from an AntiChristian heritage

http://www.jointpublicissues.org.uk/issues/eu-referendum/

This is a publication from the Baptist Union, URC and other denomations stating why Europe is fine. Which is anti Bibilcal.

If we state say we believe in say once saved always saved then what would we say the apostasy is.

John 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Philippians 1:6 [Full Chapter]
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us."

Hebrews 13:5, "Let your character be free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, 'I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake you.'”

You have verses that go against this position
2 Timothy 4:10
For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

1 Tim 1:19
Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

James 5:19-20 ESV / 138 helpful votes

My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

I am just wrestling with these two doctrines as how can you have an apostasy yet believe in once saved always saved and do not believe in works salvation

Hi Dom,

How can you apostasize when you never believed in the first place?

How can you fall away from something you never attained?

I hope this thread does't become a Cal/Arm debate (yikes) and Greg has to pull the plug again :D

It is the idea that I have been wrestling with in my mind I do not want this to turn into a Calvin / arminian debate i more want answers

It would seem rather strange if all of the NT warnings against falling away and admonitions to keep the faith were simply hollow statements.

If the warnings are hollow, it would be like me warning my wife against dunking a basketball. Why would I warn her against something that would be impossible for her to do?

The bible says in the leter of John that he who is born of God does not sin for gods seed is in him ,so he cannot sin
But who sins has neither seen God nor known God .

It's clear that if gods seed is in you will indure and those who fall away like the ones John spoke about , in his first letter ,says they went our from us because they were not of us if they had been of us they would have continued with us ,but they went out from us that it might be manifested bother were never of us ,but you are of God ".........

That is a picture of apostasy right in the first letter of John '

He said he who is of God hears us ,,

These fell away from the faith and fellow ship ,and John said they were not of God ,but of the devil..

But they appeared as if they were Christian ,but time told the true story ...,whether in the chapter of persecution ,or riches or false doctrine ,some are destine to fall away ,,there grafting in will not take ,and what little life supply they had from God even that will be taken away ..

John does not say he who is born of God might just end up sinning and Wind Up in rebellion ,because gods seed that is in him will be taken from him ....

It says the very oppasite to the above ,and that it is impossible for that to happen ,, but the reason that some fall away ,is that God seed is not in them , but they are really of the devil..

Gary-

The question stands- what are all the warnings for?

No mark the bible actually says that false teachers are appointed to wrath

Peter 1 27

” 7To you who believe, then, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” 8and, "A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the message””and to this they were appointed.…

Other translations use the word destine being that is it ther destiny...

The New Testament teaches that in a few places

Who's this John Calvin everyone speaks about ,,maybe you could link me up with some of his writings ,Iv never read any yet...

But ill go with the bible any day of the week .. As you can see it say they were a pointed for that ,it even says unbelievers ,are not just apostates ,,,I'm a little dumbfounded ,that you didn't no that ........

Tod the question also stands is why did John say those things in his letters ,

Brother if you answer that and expound it for me ,then illtell you why all the warning verses are in the bible ... Sound fair .......

John also says this in his very same letter:

1 John 1:8-10 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

So, which is correct?

Lol ....you didn't answer the question you naughty cranky man ,,,,,,lol

One question at a time you go first ,,,,then we will come to that one hey

You seem to be saying that a true Christian cannot apostasize because the "seed" of God is in Him.

I agree, as long as the seed of God is in Him. The issue on the table is whether the "seed" can be "removed" or "choked out" by the believer. I say yes, you say no, and never the twain shall meet.

Query: What is the "seed" John is talking about? Is it the same seed that Jesus mentions in his parable of the sower?

Hey Gary-

I might add that saying a nonbeliever can apostasize is like saying a person can resign from a job they don't have.

I know you say Tod it can ,but what's John say ,he who is born of God can not sin for God seed is in him ",,,,so sin can't remove the seed that's in him according to John because he can't countue in sin ,so if sin can't remove seed what can !,....

But the seed can remove sin it seems ..

Tod according to your definition of apostasy that is ,,

But johns definition says different ,,that the ones who left the fellowship were not of God in the first place ,, and that was the reason they left and fell from the faith so that was manifest is was gods way of showing they were of the devil,I think johns black and white teachings in his letters and his gospel tell a different story

Mark did you ask Greg if you could post a link .....

No seriously I have herd of him ,but not really interested in heresy hunting sites and clips ,,, brother if you have a teach able heart concidered the the scripture I posted that teaches some are apointed to stumbled , it can't be broken by Calvin or the beloved arminas

Tod I think the seed is the sword of the spirit which is the living word of God ,that divides the soul and spirit '......the spirit of the living God

What saith tho Tod what is the seed

Gary- I agree that the seed is the Word.

In regard to apostasy we may be talking about different things. I agree there are "pretenders" who are never truly saved who ultimately "go out" from the brethren, as John describes.

There are also true believers who sin (see 1 John 1). John goes on to say in. 1 John 3 that true believers do not "keep on sinning" or "practice sinning." Where that line can be drawn between the "sinning" of 1 John 1 and the "practicing sin" of 1 John 3 is anyone's guess.

My logic tells me that if a true Christian sins but a non-true Christian "practices" sinning, then there is a line where a true Christian can cross into apostasy. I am not saying this is easy or likely, just possible.

And that is why there are so many warnings in scripture about not falling away.

'I might add that saying a nonbeliever can apostasize is like saying a person can resign from a job they don't have.'

lol - you said it.

I know 2 men personally who were mightily used by God in the past who have apostasized.

The first one knelt down on the street during an outreach in the Philippines back in 84 and pleaded to God for my soul. This genuine act of humility cracked my pride and I surrendered my life to Jesus the next day.

I met him 25 years later. The night before I met him, I tried to pray for him, but the Spirit forbade me. I simply did not find grace to pray for him. The next day I found out why. He had come out as gay and lives with his friend. When I told him that he was instrumental to my salvation a quarter century ago, he just scorned me.

The other man was a national leader of a large, well known missionary work. The power of the Holy Spirit was with him, no doubt. He even put his life in peril for Christ and had too flee from his home once. He had a wife and 3 kids. 20 years later he came out as gay and is now promoting the LGBT agenda in the church.

They knew God, no doubt, but are now beyond reach.

I don't think mere sinning amounts to apostasy. Sinning with wholesale renunciation- a deliberate severing from the vine- does.

Also- if we are trying to avoid this spiraling into a Calvinism debate it migh be best not to quote known Calvinists (or Armininians). Let's just use our own words and the scriptures.

I do not think that believing in true doctrine alone ensures that you do not fall away. Satan knows the truth more than any human who ever lived save Christ himself. He tries everything to falsify it.

There are people who believe in all the the truth but they do not live according to it. Hypocrites, who confess with their mouth and deny Christ with their actions. These cause the more damage than those who believe in obvious error.

Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

They do not openly deny Christ, but they dread the cross of Christ. They may say so to adhere to orthodoxy but in realily just live for themselves. They believe in Jesus but not the Christ, who was crucified, so they end up with another Jesus.

Last time, an elder of our church preached that Jesus did not primary come to die on the cross, but so that we can go to heaven and have fellowship with him. My alarms went off.

The overcoming saints of the last day will be characterized by Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Mark obviously your view about for knowlage may be different to mine..

The fact was that some are destine to stumble , was all I said ,and god has given them a spirit of stupor ,,,and really when that happens ,no free will will change what's been apointed by God .,
The bible says like brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed ......
Rather then saying this ,like brute beasts made to be caught and maby domesticated to be come a beloved pet ..

Also Jude says ,that these people judgment has been reserved it's not a posability based upon weather they will be there own will repent ,of wickedness,,but judgment is already pounced on those certaint men , there no geting around that Jude and Peter ,are prophesying the doom of false teachers ,that was a forehand planned by God ,just as your salvation is planned ..

12These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; 13wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

Reprobate !!

Narrow path weather someone was on the mission field or not does not make them a true Christian ,, God can even use a false prophet like benni Hinn and Joel olstean to draw and even convert his ellect ,,even a watch tower ,...

being in a night place in ministers does not prove ones a true Christian ,,in the days we live and looking at the bible ,it has just as much validity to prove that some one is a false prophert,and operating under a a false spirit ,especially ,in the carsamatic movement ,,,,the appearance of godliness but denying the power ,,,,,,I'm a carsamatic,so I'm being biased when I say that ,even the pentacostal movment is subject tosuducing spirit ......

I am from a charismatic background as my dad was formerly a drug addict
What I was trying to define what is someone who is an apostate , Richard Dawkins used to be an Anglican , it is also defining what we mean by salvation or regeneration
A person who knows what we believe or who has experienced the Christian faith a lot more dangerous that someone who has not ,there are entire churches where I would say they are not Christian but that does not mean that some of there members are
From my original post you can see the state of the current denominations regarding issues such as homosexuality , interfaith and other things
I am from the UK and most of them are pro Europe the churches even thou the bible talks about things like a one world government that is antichristian

Darwinis only degree was I theology , there are many famous people who apostatised from the faith , the debate is whether is are they truly saved or not , what do you do about whole denominations that apostize from the faith

Obviously my Position,is they were not truely born of God , tho they may have tasted the holy spirits work ,,,

That's a very interesting scripture , that says the only evidence that we are really partakers of Christ ,are born of God is if we indure to the end .

So hence the truth is if we don't indure to the end ,we were never partakers of Christ ,through the new birth in the first place ,,we were not true Christians ,

That was the point I was making before ..

The bible does say Christians ,are partakers of the Devine nature .

So those who apostatised ,were never partakers of the Devine life of Christ ,very convincing scripture,that teachers the perseverance of the saints ....

I will need to get my wife to install it on my iPad,,,

I have a spell check on it but it doesn't give me the write word all the time .

I know the word I want when I see it ,I never have any problems reading even the hardest to spell words , but remembering how it is spelt..

I used to have a real good spell check on my laptop ,which I don't use any more ,that all ways gave me a selection of words ,most of if not all the time I would see the word there..

I'm not good on a computer either ,so working out how to install stuff on an iPad is some thing I never done before

I'll ask my wife tomorrow,but I think this I pad already as this one inbuilt, can you over ride it ........
I

Greg the red under line spell check is good but it doesnt work on sermon index ,it only comes up on face book automatically.......why is that..

I just turned off auto correction, and now it seems to work better, maybe I'll it like this.

Marc, I should correct that last post of mine you commented on by saying that the text didnt say that it is the only evidence to know we are partakers, if we endure.

So there are probable others that was definitely one of them and lends itsself to the outcome mentioned by me.

Hi brothergary,

I have seen the true and false and know what I am talking about. The Spirit was once working in them, their life giving witness and bringing fruit, no doubt, but later they fell away.

There is an overwhelming amount of scripture that warns Christians against falling away. Are they all empty threats as others have pointed out here? Just look at Israel, God's chosen people. God had no pleasure of them that escaped from Egypt, he later slew them in the dessert. Was their behaviour not given to us as a warning against falling away?

I, too, was once a child of wrath as Ephesians 2 says in verse 3

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

I now hold the hand that holds me, but if I wanted to struggle myself free, he would do endear me and warn me, but if in the end I insist, he would let me go. I have seen it happen in peoples lives.

Unfortunately, most who hold to OSAS and reformed positions will never accept this point and change their mind; even against scriptural evidence so I rest my case here.

May I suggest to watch this documentary about Hyper Grace; it touches on the very same subject.

HYPER GRACE Documentary
https://youtu.be/XgnBQ60FeGo

If the only assurance of salvation a person has is that they will endure to the end, what kind of assurance is that?

By that standard there really is no way at all to know if someone is truly saved nor could we know after they die. I mean they could be externally the best Christian on the planet but how do we know their hearts?

I'd be shaking in my boots if I held to that doctrine.

No, the Bible is clear that "faith" or "believing" entails an action. This is why scriptures says you will know them by their fruits and that faith without works is not faith at all.

We are saved by faith not works. But we are not saved unless our faith works.

We are saved by faith not works. But we are not saved unless our faith works.

amen

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them , I told you , and ye believed not : the works that I do in my Father's name , they bear witness of me . But ye believe not , because ye are not of my sheep , as I said unto you . My sheep hear my voice , and I know them , and they follow me : And I give unto them eternal life ; and they shall never perish , neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand . My Father , which gave them me , is greater than all ; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand . I and my Father are one .

If we study this carefully, we see that The Father has given Jesus Christ all His sheep. Jesus totally and completely confirms that He is the Christ. By this He is the only one that has His sheep in His hands given Him by the Father. The He confirms and states surly that those that the Father has given Him, He gives them eternal life and they will never parish.

Who are they that are His? Answer: those that hear His voice and know whose voice they are hearing. The Father also states that no being, person or thing can pluck, (harpazo), same word for the rapture, them out of the Father or the Son' hands.

Who saves me? The Father by the Son in whom He now speaks to us through Him.

I have nothing to do with this, it is all by the Father through the Son. Now by the Christ in me; Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Now I work and labour by He that is in me.

How can I forsake so great or loose so great salvation?

If I can loose it, which God and Jesus both say it is impossible, then I never had it to loose in the first place.

Whose life do I now live by faith? Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Is Christ dead in vain? Can He parish? If the answer is no, then who am I to say This salvation and edict of God, by His own Son and the Living Word, that I can loose what God has proclaimed.

My choice? Not hardly, I now have the Life of the Son, The forever Holy Spirit and the Father making their abode in me.

They will not parish, They will never leave me. What does that make me forever?

a son by the Son that is born again of the Father in me.

In Him and He in me: Phillip

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some(not all) SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron." 2 Timothy 4:1-2

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU an evil heart of unbelief, in DEPARTING from the living God.

Are these above those below that are His sheep. Must not be because if they are then Jesus must be lying.

John 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

The Three are One and cannot lie.

In Christ: Phillip