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The danger of believing in Total Sanctification

S
Sree

Total Sanctification is to believe that we are already completely sanctified and cannot sin. Now we may think that those with this belief are also normal Christian who differ only in their belief. But recently I heard Brother Zac Poonen on this subject in a sermon. I have paraphrased what I heard from him.

"The problem with those who believe in Total Sanctification is, because they believe they cannot sin, when they see sins in their life like outbursts of anger or lust, they call it as mistakes. Now the problem with this is the blood of Jesus only cleanses sins and not mistakes. Since they only commit mistakes and not sins, they do not confess and repent, hence they live in their mistakes (actually sins) and die in it."

Now do we see how sad this status is? Is it not deception? Even a wretched sinner who repents before his death has more hope than those who believe in this and confess Jesus name.

I am not posting it to debate on this belief, but for people to understand how dangerous such belief can be.

S
sermonindex

I have never heard anyone say they "CANNOT" sin.

With Jesus Christ we now have a choice. It is not that we cannot sin but we can choose not to. We don't have to sin. We are no longer in the grip of Satan.

Is that what Total Sanctification believes that man is incapable of sinning, now? That it is impossible to sin? Because, when you use the word "CANNOT", that is exactly what you are implying/saying.

S
sermonindex

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it. ”“ 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NKJV)

As we can see, scripture confirms that we are to be entirely sanctified.

There is a great deal of misunderstanding about what it means. It does NOT mean that a man cannot sin again once he has been ES'ed. He can. It does not mean that once a man becomes a believer he does not sin. There is usually a period of struggle beforehand.

It also does not mean that a man can sin and call it a mistake. There have been many who have given it a bad name because of this.

It merely means that Christ can live within the believer, united with him and the man can be entirely submitted to Him, loving Him with his whole heart. It is the devil who says that man cannot overcome sin. Holiness is the life of Christ living in us and nothing to do with self effort or not needing the blood daily for us to walk in righteousness which is Christ.

There is no danger when we are hungering and thirsting for holiness.

He who calls you and is faithful will do it.

S
Sree

There is a difference between believing 'I will not sin because I am under God's grace' from believing 'I CANNOT sin because I am already made perfect by Jesus'. I am talking about that belief. I too believe I will not sin.

Believe it or not, there is a sister who came back to this forum who believes in it. Other than many scriptures that are against such belief, the danger to die in sin is greater.

S
sermonindex

Sree if you mean me, I do not believe in sinless perfection. That was a misunderstanding. We can never reach a stage where we cannot sin if we so choose.

If others see us sin then we have sinned.

S
Sree


not needing the blood daily for us to walk in righteousness which is Christ.

This is the danger that your belief can bring. If you truly believe that you can sin then you will never say that there is NO NEED for blood of Jesus. When the scripture in 1 John 1 is very clear that every believer including Apostle John need blood of Jesus everyday. He used the term 'WE' which means even John is included in it.

The problem with you is the moment we start disagreeing with you, you go to the other extreme that those who oppose you believe that Sin will over power them. No it is not. Brother Zac Poonen for example has preached overcoming life in all his sermons. I am yet to find a sermon by him where he has not emphasized this fact.

I believe that a true believer can overcome sins. No one is against it. But taking it to another extreme like how you believe is a great danger. The danger is to die in sins.

Very clearly even the scripture that you posted only says that we will be completely sanctified when Jesus comes. It is a prayer, not a promise. The word 'May' means it is a prayer. 'Will' means it is a promise.

S
sermonindex

Hi sree, Brenda
I think I understand both of you, and agree with both.
The OP I believe speaks about those that don't think that sanctification is a process, while Brenda says that we can live our life clean and holy.
When Christ washed the disciple's feet He said to them that they are clean, but also said to them that they need their feet to be washed by him otherwise they have no communion with him. I believe that we can be clean and also regularly cleansed.
I think regular cleansing results in our growth, whether our growth results in actual literal holiness at the end of our life I don't know. But meanwhile we can be holy in the sense that we do not commit knowingly any sin.
God does not convict us of all sins at ones. He continually brings our sins to our knowledge, as we grow that's why is there a regular cleansing.
I understand OP's concern, and fully agree.
This is only my opinion, and I desire to learn more about this topic.

S
sermonindex

To repeat: I am not saying that a man does not need the blood daily to keep him cleansed, it must be applied daily. Righteouness is of Christ not us. The moment we step outside of that blood we are down.

Unfortunately there have been many who held scewed beliefs about ES. The verse I gave says that we are to be preserved till His coming, not that the act will be performed then.

I hear Christians say that they have sins and how can they stop. Or they do not have victory over one area. Poonan might teach the overcoming life but does he give that testimony? Does he say when and how it happened?

Yes I agree that there is a process when God shows us more and more of our sins. This is what the law does in order to bring us to Christ to be cleansed. There must come a point though where He is all and we are submitted and no longer have self left.

S
Sree

Tozsu,

I think I understand both of you, and agree with both.

Identifying deception is not as simple as finding black and white. It is like finding white and not so white. Did you notice the part where she said Blood of Jesus is not needed? You may not have.

The point of this thread is not to insult Blenda or her theology but to show the danger of it. It is for that reason I have not quoted even a single scripture against total sanctification. Otherwise all we will have in this thread is twisted explanation to suite once theology as response.

S
sermonindex

by brenda7 on 2016/6/11 15:01:32

It does NOT mean that a man cannot sin again once he has been ES'ed. He can.


Sree, I think you read this excerpt from Brenda too fast. It is also a double negative so can be difficult to comprehend. She is not saying that we do not need the blood of Christ daily.

by brenda7 on 2016/6/11 15:01:32

It is the devil who says that man cannot overcome sin. Holiness is the life of Christ living in us and nothing to do with self effort or not needing the blood daily for us to walk in righteousness which is Christ.

Let me try to reword what she is saying and we can let Brenda confirm.


Holiness is the life of Christ living in us and has NOTHING to do with NOT needing the blood daily for us to walk in righteousness.

In other words. WE DO NEED the BLOOD of CHRIST, DAILY.

At least that is what I am comprehending.

By the way, I think you should use scriptures because some of your posts are confusing. Can you please try to use some scriptures? It is not our words that shine the light but rather the Word of God.


S
sermonindex

Thanks Julius that is what I meant. Double negative oops!

The problem with using scripture is the two ways it is being interpreted and you can argue forever about that.

S
sermonindex

I understand, but scripture is helpful. I liked your scripture on sanctification. People can argue forever about anything. We all need revelation of what it means that Jesus Christ is now living in us.

Jesus wants us to believe and say the prince of this world "hath nothing in me."

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

tuc has some good posts lately on where sin comes from, or should I say, WHO?

S
sermonindex

"There must come a point though where He is all and we are submitted and no longer have self left."
There is a point when we are totally surrendered. That does not mean that it remains that way as long as we are in this life. The trials and temptations cause us to move out from that point of "total surrender" but we can go back there by grace. As long as we have the flesh we rely on Christ's grace to be at the point of total surrender. Theoretically we could remain there, and I believe the more mature someone is, the more time he spends there, but we have a corrupted flesh, that remains until we die, plus God would test us according to our maturity so even very mature Christians will face difficult challenges. The purpose of the whole process is strengthening our faith. That point that you are talking about will come at the point of our glorification.

sree, I did not notice. But she explained it later.

S
sermonindex

I understand, but scripture is helpful. I liked your scripture on sanctification. People can argue forever about anything. We all need revelation of what it means that Jesus Christ is now living in us.

Jesus wants us to believe and say the prince of this world "hath nothing in me."

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

tuc has some good posts lately on where sin comes from, or should I say, WHO?

Amen Julius. Where is tuc!

S
sermonindex

Tozsu wrote: There is a point when we are totally surrendered. That does not mean that it remains that way as long as we are in this life. The trials and temptations cause us to move out from that point of "total surrender" but we can go back there by grace. As long as we have the flesh we rely on Christ's grace to be at the point of total surrender. Theoretically we could remain there, and I believe the more mature someone is, the more time he spends there

I can agree with this. When we are in full surrender, the life of Christ is manifest in us and rivers of living water pour from us to bless others.

To get there requires faith in His power to overcome. When there we rely on His grace alone. Very few are able to remain in full surrender all of the time, but are hopefully restored through repentance if they fall despite Christ giving us the ability to withstand temptation. We will sometimes start to rely on our selves again and down we will go. As tuc says, we are either possessed by God or Satan, the kingdom of God or the kingdom of darkness.

The question is, what is it like to be in grace?

S
sermonindex

by brenda7 on 2016/6/11 16:37:44

Tozsu wrote: There is a point when we are totally surrendered. That does not mean that it remains that way as long as we are in this life. The trials and temptations cause us to move out from that point of "total surrender" but we can go back there by grace. As long as we have the flesh we rely on Christ's grace to be at the point of total surrender. Theoretically we could remain there, and I believe the more mature someone is, the more time he spends there

I can agree with this. When we are in full surrender, the life of Christ is manifest in us and rivers of living water pour from us to bless others.

To get there requires faith in His power to overcome. When there we rely on His grace alone. Very few are able to remain in full surrender all of the time, but are hopefully restored through repentance if they fall despite Christ giving us the ability to withstand temptation. We will sometimes start to rely on our selves again and down we will go. As tuc says, we are either possessed by God or Satan, the kingdom of God or the kingdom of darkness.

The question is, what is it like to be in grace?

I can agree with that, too.

The maturity that God wants in our lives is for us to mature in godly love and thus we are being conformed to the image of His Son. When we choose to love all men we are choosing to draw our life from Christ. As we mature in love we come to understand what it means to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. This takes the cross and denying "self". We come to know also, why the man that "loveth another hath fulfilled the law".

1Pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

I used to think that 1 Peter 4:1 was speaking about people that were being tortured for their faith, but the Lord showed me that He is talking about all Christians who are willing to suffer in the flesh by bearing their Cross, daily which means to deny the flesh and choose to live by His life.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

S
sermonindex

Brenda,
What about this part? It was to bring balance to my post.

" but we have a corrupted flesh, that remains until we die, plus God would test us according to our maturity so even very mature Christians will face difficult challenges. The purpose of the whole process is strengthening our faith. That point that you are talking about will come at the point of our glorification."

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sermonindex

Julius and Tozsu

I agree that we are tested to strengthen our faith though not tempted by God, but the flesh is to be crucified so that we walk after the Spirit Romans 6. Flesh that is alive has not been dealt with. Flesh is all things human not just sin. It must be under the cross in this life and not the life to come.

S
sermonindex

Jesus Christ had the same flesh as we do.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

added this

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

S
sermonindex

Brenda said:
"There must come a point though where He is all and we are submitted and no longer have self left."

My opinion:
but we have a corrupted flesh, that remains until we die.

That point that you are talking about will come at the point of our glorification.

J
JFW

As outlined by Pink,
4 fold salvation
1. From the pleasure of sin
2. From the penalty of sin
3. From the power of sin
4. From the presence of sin

Personally I believe the first three are attainable in this fleshly body, however as long as we are alive we will be in the presence of sin due to the fallen world...

As I understand the term "entire sanctification" is the attainment of no. 3,
Being free from the power of sin's dominion.

As I see it, the greater danger is not confessing at least the potential of entire sanctification (as defined above) and not meaning perpetual sinless perfection but rather being free from its power-

To say we can't live entirely sanctified is to confess we believe the power of satan to keep us in bondage to sin is in fact greater than the power of the blood of Jesus Christ to set us free from it! God forbid!

And just because we as individuals might not be there yet, and just because you may not know anyone who is there yet doesn't mean it's not possible, it just means not yet...

ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE THROUGH CHRIST WHO IS IN ME

So wether we attain it in this life or not, let us press on, striving to attain it, believing it is possible and giving our utmost for His highest-

Like L. Ravenhill once said, I doubt when we stand before God in judgement that He will chastise us for taking His word too seriously and trying too hard to live holy lives~

S
Sree

I think the reason why we find Total Sanctification acceptable is there are 2 stages that Blenda believes, one stage is before complete sanctification and one after. So when you ask do you believe that a Christian can sin, the answer will be yes, but according to her it is pre-sanctification stage.

Let us get things straightened to avoid all confusion, Blenda if you can answer these with simple Yes or No. Please do not think I am interrogating you, it will help us to understand you better. I do not think you used to believe what you have posted here before when you frequently fought in this forum. Either you have changed your views or we have misunderstood. Please stick with simple Yes or no.

1. Do you believe you have achieved total sanctification?

2. Do you still commit sins in your daily walk? I want to know the reality not your belief.

3. Can a person who achieved total sanctification commit sin like getting into anger, or fall into adultery? I am not talking about falling away from faith, I am talking about sins in daily walk.

4. Do such a person who got total sanctification need to repent when he sins in his daily walk? Does he need blood of Jesus?

S
Sree


As I see it, the greater danger is not confessing at least the potential of entire sanctification (as defined above) and not meaning perpetual sinless perfection but rather being free from its power-

Incidentally I just shared a sermon this week on the 3 tenses of salvation. Saved from Past Penalty of sins, Saved from Power of Sins and Saved from presence of sin.

See you have clearly differentiated sinless perfection from being saved from the power of sin. But the belief of total sanctification does not support your view, they believe they are sinless perfect as they attained total sanctification. That is why I find greater danger in it.

There are many christians who do not believe that they are saved from power of Sin. But they are still on the path to being saved as they confess and repent from their daily sin. Their net life on earth might be worthless but they themselves will be saved due to continuous repentance.

But a person who believes in total sanctification, goes into the danger of not repenting from their sins because they think they cannot sin. If someone point any sin in them they justify saying it is just a mistake. Now such people are on the way to HELL. Even if they continue professing the name of Jesus, they will not be saved on Judgement day as they have not repented from their sins. Now tell me which is dangerous?

J
JFW

Yes I totally get your point and was offering a more "Wesleyan" view of ES or "Christian Perfection" and thought it interesting to use a Calvinist preacher to do it;)

In any case I do confess that I found the point Wesley was making in the scriptures independent of his writings and only came upon them after my own personal belief that the scriptures do in fact confess this-

I say all that to say this, perhaps there are several differing views of ES that get lumped together under that moniker when individually they're not even compatible...?

The one thing regarding sanctification I've found saints here to (generally) agree upon is that it is both instant and progressive much like a marriage in that you'll never be "more" married than the day you first were but you can continue grow in intimacy if both parties are committed. Since we kno Christ is committed then we only have to follow Him into the fullness of His will for us and even that He empowers us to do ;)

I think Hebrews 6:1 might be useful in this discussion<

S
sermonindex

Fletcher writes..........

"As I see it, the greater danger is not confessing at least the potential of entire sanctification (as defined above) and not meaning perpetual sinless perfection but rather being free from its power"

I was in the process of writing something very similar to that point and got interrupted. I agree with that, its a good point and I believe, as a fellow Scotsman :) that Oswald Chambers would agree with that too. We should pursue the sinless life knowing that the power of sin no longer has any hold of us. An over-emphasis on the sin that remains in our flesh by nature of the flesh being corrupt is to often capitulate and bow down to the old master. Often times the old master shouts and we still jump forgetting that he has been usurped and conquered by our Lord Jesus.

We have been called to and brought into the victorious life. Victory in Jesus our Saviour forever. Let us never forget however that the ability to come before the throne and ask for forgiveness for our sins is a mighty priveledge and works to humble us and to be of a broken and a contrite heart. We will always need Jesus, every hour we need Him because we are no sinless. Is that therefore a license to sin? God forbid, quite the opposite............bro Frank

S
sermonindex

The container (flesh) we live in and self are two different things. Our "old man" has been crucified and we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin. Why in the world would Paul write this if we were unable to reckon ourselves dead to sin...

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

...and alive to God through Jesus Christ, now?

Because we don't have to sin, anymore.

The members of our body can now, controlled by a renewed mind, under submission to Jesus and by the power of the Holy Spirit be yielded to righteousness.

Before, when the spirit of disobedience was dwelling in us, our members were yielded to unrighteousness. We were deriving our character and behavior from a different source. Wickedness from the Wicked One was working in us. We were not dead to sin.

Why does Paul tell us this?

"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof". (Rom 6:12)

He is not talking about self, but our mortal body, the container of our soul and spirit.

The following verses tell me that we are no longer servants of sin and sin does not have to have dominion over us in any area. Haven't many of you experienced freedom from sin? If you are conscious of any sin reigning in your life, don't you repent and turn away from it? Isn't this your desire? If not, why not? Do you love your sin more than Jesus?

"Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:11-22)

S
Sree


The following verses tell me that we are no longer servants of sin and sin does not have to have dominion over us in any area. Haven't many of you experienced freedom from sin? If you are conscious of any sin reigning in your life, don't you repent and turn away from it? Isn't this your desire? If not, why not? Do you love your sin more than Jesus?

Julius, like already stated in this thread, no one here is prescribing license to sin.

Yes the old man who was yielding to sin is dead. Now the new man is not obliged to serve the passions of sin that Old man served. But sin will not be master over new man only if he is under grace. If he stands by his own strength then he will fall.

Also there are unconscious sins inside us which we may not know until God shows us. For example Peter did not know that his partiality towards Jews when they came to Galatia was a sin until Paul showed it. Was sin master over Peter? No but he was living in an unconscious sin which was made conscious to him by Paul.

Same way in our life we have so many things that we may not know is sin. But as we cleanse ourself of known sins God will show us more and more of unknown sins.

For example you might think that you overcame anger, but suddenly one person may provoke you to anger by harming you for no reason. Thus that mean anger still has master over you? It is just a different level of temptation that you have not faced that defeated you. Apostle Paul cursed high priest when Paul was slapped for no reason. He then apologized and set things right before both God and man. So there are different levels are temptations that we need to overcome as we walk in our daily walk.

I hope it clarifies your point. Sanctification is gradual, the more we cleanse ourself, God will show us more of our unchirstlikeness. This is how God wants us to become like Jesus.

S
sermonindex

by Sree on 2016/6/11 21:39:28

Also there are unconscious sins inside us which we may not know until God shows us. For example Peter did not know that his partiality towards Jews when they came to Galatia was a sin until Paul showed it. Was sin master over Peter? No but he was living in an unconscious sin which was made conscious to him by Paul.

What makes you think Peter's sin was unconscious to him?

The word reveals it was very much conscious.

Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

He "dissembled" by choice.

Peter was walking "not uprightly" according to the truth of the gospel. Do you think Peter did not know the gospel?

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Peter knew that fearing any man was sin. We are only to fear God.

Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, FEARING THEM which were of the circumcision.

I don't believe this thread is talking about what you call "unconscious sin". We are talking about conscious, volitional sinning. People that are conscious of walking in sin or people that are not conscious of any sin. It is true what you say, that the Holy Spirit will bring sin to our attention. But if we ignore it, like Peter, God will send someone to "withstand them to the face" as Paul did. If the sin was unconscious sin, Paul should have taken Peter aside, privately and showed him his sin. But, Peter in his weakness knew what he was doing. The scriptures seem very clear to me, I don't see how you can say that Peter did not know what he was doing. You are not giving him very much credit for being a spiritual man. He is not an imbecile.


J
JFW

Another aspect of importance regarding the practice is "putting on the new man" or "put on Christ" or "being renewed in the spirit of our minds" or "put on the whole armor of God" etc...

All of these being related to the practice of daily holiness or sanctification as prescribed in scripture.

So take for instance; 3 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Now what are we renewing our minds too?
The truth of what God accomplished through Christ for us, which is freedom from sin.
"as a man thinketh in his heart so is he".... So if we every morning first thing renew our minds to the truth of what has already been done, that we've been cleansed, are continuing to be cleansed, have received a measure of faith, have received the imparted righteousness of Christ, have been freed from sin, have been given power over sin, have been given everything pertaining to life and godliness, are seated in Christ at the right hand of the Father, believing and confessing that we are partakers of Christs divine nature and can walk upright before God and man as His holy children, as citizens of His kingdom where sin has no dominion over us,... How do you suppose we'd live....?
By contrast if, as bro Frank stated, (paraphrasing) we believe we will inevitably sin at some point today and that's ok cause everybody does everyday, and yes Jesus did all that but I'm not Jesus and He was perfect and I'm not and never will be (tho He commanded me to be) perfect so I'm not gonna try to fool myself into thinking I can go even one whole day without sinning... How do you think we'd live...?

And what would the consequences of both be?
Not only in our lives and those round about us but also for the cause of Christ/advancing the kingdom?

This is where belief and unbelief are contrasted,... some only believe in a "next life" salvation and others believe it's now too and press into it by yielding their members to righteousness by faith.

I can say that if we had as much belief and discipline, determination, resolve, and faith in Christ as Mohamed Ali did in himself... we'd turn the world upside down just as the apostles did 2 millennia ago and the world would know without a doubt that Jesus was sent by God!

S
Sree

What makes you think Peter's sin was unconscious to him?

I do not think you clearly understand the difference between conscious and unconscious sin. The fact that Peter knew that fearing man is wrong (because Jesus spoke against fear of man) does not prove that he committed that sin consciously. Also you are basing the argument on what Apostle Paul wrote in the letter of Galatians. Paul was obviously more spiritually mature than Peter, hence he was able to easily look through the motives of Peter's actions better. For example another person can easily spot the dirt on your face better than you. So his perspective will be that you are walking around with dirt on your face, does that mean you are conscious of this dirt?

One example of unconscious sin that I can give from my own life is as follows. I frequently share in my Church meetings. One week when I was about to share my 3 year old daughter wanted me to take her to restroom. Once I finished her need and returned back, the meeting was over. I felt that, 'what would people think of me if I did not share today?'. Then immediately the Lord showed that I was more interested in their opinion than to help them by sharing the word. I repented to God.

Now did I not know that seeking opinion of men is a sin? I have myself spoken against it so many times. But I was not aware of having that in me until the Lord exposed my sin by using my daughter. So the fact that Peter knows that fearing men is sin does not prove that he did it deliberately. God allowed such a situation in Peter's life to expose his sins.

But the beauty is when Paul who was a junior to Peter in faith, rebuked him publicly, Peter repented without justifying himself. If Peter was believing in being Completely Sanctified then he would have ignored Paul's rebuke stating that it was just a MISTAKE, I am ALREADY PERFECT! I am sure Peter would have LOST his calling. But praise God he had humility to accept public correction which Most christians today cannot accept.


I don't believe this thread is talking about what you call "unconscious sin". We are talking about conscious, volitional sinning.

I started this thread, I am sure I know what this thread is talking about!!!
Now the reason I was mentioning unconscious sins is, that is a sin we all commit in our everyday walk whether we believe in Total Sanctification or not. Now when God brings such sins to our attention, I who do NOT believe that I am totally sanctified, has the humility to accept my fall and will repent and ask for forgiveness. But people who believe in the lies of total sanctification will not repent as they believe there is no sin in them. How can God even show their unconscious sins?
Now do you see how acknowledging the presence of unconscious sins are essential with respect to Total Sanctification?

C
Christinyou

1 John 3:9-10 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Who is the only One, The Only Begotten Son of God? Of course it is Jesus Christ the Son of God and He is the only human that did not, cannot, and never will sin.

So it is the seed of Jesus Christ that is born again in the believer that cannot sin, that sinless perfection can only be manifested in the believer by the Born Again experience of the incorruptible Seed of the Father which is Jesus Christ, He being the only one who has not sinned and never would.

1 Peter 1:22-25 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Both passages are pointing to loving your brother. This is the manifestation of God in the believer that Jesus Christ gave another commandment "Love one another as I have loved you".

Total sanctification is Jesus Christ in me. Progressive sanctification is by Him being the power and labor to work and do of His good pleasure which is to sanctify us in Himself and make us sons of God and a purified Bride.

Who is sanctified completely? The Christ in me. Who is made unto me sanctification? The Christ in me. Who is making me sanctified? The Christ in me.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Who is faithful and just to forgive me if I sin. God in all His Glory, when I agree with Him for my sin which is manifest if I sin, Grace abounds even more and I am forgiven in Christ evermore.

Please read all of this passage of the Word of God who Is Jesus Christ.

1 John 1:1-10 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Am I sanctified completely? Yes in Christ. Am I being sanctified? Yes in Christ. Will I be totally sanctified? Yes in Christ. By His mighty resurrection Power that worketh in me mightily.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

IN Christ, who is my sanctification: Phillip


S
sermonindex

I would love to give yes/no answers to the following questions, but I am afraid it is not so simple, but I will endeavour to be as clear as I can be. You are correct in what you said concerning my explanations which have modified somewhat since I was last here, though my beliefs are still the same.

Sree asks:

1. Do you believe you have achieved total sanctification?

A slight change of tense to "had".

2. Do you still commit sins in your daily walk? I want to know the reality not your belief.

I do not commit conscious sin as far as I know. The Light however is not present to illuminate unconscious sins before I commit them. "Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, "This is the way; walk in it." Isa. 30:21."

I have lost this presence of God I knew before and what I can only describe as a supercharged spirit or state of revival.

Please don't ask me why, I don't know as yet and consider myself in some sort of trial.

3. Can a person who achieved total sanctification commit sin like getting into anger, or fall into adultery? I am not talking about falling away from faith, I am talking about sins in daily walk.

They can but they will not do so willingly. They will however, easily fall into trusting in their own strength again which will cause them to fall and sin.

4. Do such a person who got total sanctification need to repent when he sins in his daily walk? Does he need blood of Jesus?

He needs the application of the blood of Jesus to stay in the light or in the state of TS. If he falls through trusting in his own strength which leads to sin, he then needs to repent to be restored and it is not easy, in fact within himself:

"It is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. Heb 6:4-6"

S
sermonindex

As far as Peter is concerned, I believe that he and the other disciples were totally sanctified by the washing in baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, but he fell and sinned through fear which is trusing in our own strength. If we are trusting in the strength of God there is nothing to fear. We are aware that we are trusting in our own strength.

Paul rebuked him which enabled him to repent and be restored and we do not read of him committing another sin.

S
Sree

Thank you for your answers, I do not find any difference between your belief and mine. I believe in gradual sanctification. Though you call yourself totally sanctified, I only find the difference in terms. I will consider myself totally sanctified only when I am confirmed to the image of Jesus. Romans 8 says to be confirmed to His image is my pre destination. Which means I am still in the process of travel all my life and will reach the destination when I see him face to face.

Like Brother Zac Poonen often says, "as far as possible for a man on earth to attain to the image of Jesus, I want to be confirmed to that level".

S
sermonindex

Hi Sree, do you mean "conformed" rather than confirmed?

S
sermonindex

Like Brother Zac Poonen often says, "as far as possible for a man on earth to attain to the image of Jesus, I want to be confirmed to that level".

Dear brother,

I agree fully with this statement, may this be our heart and let us not be deceived in a one-time experience that really might not lead us in that direction of truly being as Christ-like as we can in this life to the glory of God.


1 John 2:6 New International Version (NIV)

6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

S
sermonindex

Dear brother,

I agree fully with this statement, may this be our heart and let us not be deceived in a one-time experience that really might not lead us in that direction of truly being as Christ-like as we can in this life to the glory of God.

"One time experience"?

Who is teaching that? Did I miss something?

C
Christinyou

I see only a one time experience when the Father gives me to the Son, and gives birth of the incorruptible Seed of Jesus Christ in me, my spirit becoming the Spirit of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Then Jesus gives the Holy Spirit to make this one time experience what is said by God, that Jesus Christ has been made unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.

All four of these fall under Grace by Faith, that not of yourselves. If we are to grow in grace; 2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

WE don't get all wisdom, all righteousness, all sanctification at our born again experience, we do get all of redemption in Christ at the Cross by His shed blood.
So if we are to grow in Grace, which also includes, wisdom, righteousness and sanctification. We are growing in Grace, we are growing in wisdom, we are growing in sanctification, we are growing in righteousness. Because the Christ In me is all of these things.

The human mind body and soul could not take all of these in fullness and perfection at our initial born again experience, it is just too much, as a baby I cannot eat steak, I must grow to be able to consume steak.

This is why Grace must abound even more when we sin, as we grow, Grace becomes the adult food that defeats sin. That is coming from God the Father by the God the Son by the Holy Spirit giving us the food to become and grow to perfection when the fullness of Christ is come.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

1 Corinthians 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Amen

In Christ by the Grace of God, who started a good work in me and He will finish It unto the day of His coming for Us His Bride:

Phillip

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