Authority of the Scriptures

Would you listen to a preacher/teacher who does not back his words by the written word of God?
In the middle ages people did not have the bible, they accepted the word that their teachers brought to them. People's words counted as God's words. The pope used to be speaking what "God revealed to him", he was supposed to be infallible. If we say that personal revelation is capable to bring new doctrines into christianity that are not written in the bible, we agree with the chatolics, and undo the reformation.

When Jesus taught he always backed up his teaching with the scriptures. The books of the OT testified that what Jesus said was so.

Yes, I did a study today on all the places where Jesus said, "It is written".

Good study if anyone wants to do it.

It is a good study Julius. Jesus showed us how we should relate to the written word of God.
Jesus defeated Satan by quoting the written word of God.
Jesus always confirmed the written word of God by his own words, explaining it's real meaning.
Luke 4:16-21
" 16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."

Edited to add: We also use the written scriptures (along with our personal revelation) to tell the people who Jesus is.

Tozsu

I don't think anyone here would argue about the role of scripture that you have outlined. We will all, I am sure, will refuse anything that is not confirmed in the Bible. No Catholics here.

For more personal direction though, we must rely on inner revelation first before scriptural confirmation otherwise how will a man know he is called to the ministry?

There are many who think that God only speaks through the Bible today. That is wrong He speaks through His Son who uses various means including direct revelation to our spirits. Many who have not had access to the scriptures have found this.

But WHO is the scripture talking about? WHO fulfilled the scripture in Isaiah? This is the thing I have been trying to challenge us to consider.

The opening verses of John say in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. It does not say in the beginning was the Bible and the Bible was with God and the Bible was God.

Revelation 19:13 says He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called the Word of God. It does not say that His name is called the Bible.

The Trinity is NOT Holy Father, Holy Son, Holy Bible. But God has manifested himself in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Truth is found in a person. His name is Jesus Christ. He is the Word of God. The final revelation of God is found in Jesus Christ. He is the absolute truth. Absolute truth is not in a book but in a Person. His name is Jesus Christ.

But He is also dynamic truth. And as such God communicates the truth of Jesus Christ in other ways outside of the printed word. That is the issue I have been trying to raise.

There are cultures that do not have a literary base. We call them oral cultures. They do not have the printed word of God in their heart language. But missionaries will communicate the truth of Jesus Christ through oral proclamation. They will communicate the truth of Jesus Christ in storying. In missions this is known as orality. The oral truth of Jesus Christ is communicated through the oral story.

Truth is not contained in the pages of a book. But it is contained in the person of Jesus Christ. Does the book speak of Jesus? Yes it does. But Jesus told the Pharisees that they searched the scriptures thinking that in them they have eternal life. But it was the scriptures that pointed to Jesus.

We do not worship the medium of which testifies of the Truth. We do not worship the Bible. But we worship Him of whom the Bible speaks of.

At the risk of sounding heretical and I suppose that by the above statements I am heretical. It is not Holy Bible. The Bible is not a holy book. But the Bible speaks of Him who is Holy. Thus we worship Jesus who is the Word. We do not worship the Bible. To do so would be idolatry. Or I should say bibliolatry.

Simply my thoughts.

Agree entirely Blaine. How do we know that what we read in the Bible is the truth? The witness of the Holy Spirit is first.

Scripture is the fountain but not the source.

Beautifully said sister. You communicated in fewer words what I was trying to communicate. Scriptures are the fountain. Jesus is the source.

Thank you so much for that illustration.

Lord bless you my sister.

Thank you Blaine :)

It did npt come from me though, the early Quakers said it. They were against the worshipping of scripture.

Appreciate those dear saints Brenda. They truly lived out Jesus. Just as you live Him out :)

The written word is God's spoken word to the writers of the Bible.
Every word of God is equally spoken of Him.

The bible says that the word was God:

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

First there was the word who is God and then later it/he became flesh.

Genesis 1:2-3
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Psalms 33:6
By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1st John 1:1-3
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

John's revelation (spoken word of God) was made into a book.

Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The testimony of the apostles, and the revelation given to them along with the prophets constitutes the foundation of the church. The foundation is finished, now we are in the work of building.
***Revelations given to us are for the building and can not change the foundations.***

Ephesians 2:20-22
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Thanks Blaine. Tozsu, as the writers of scripture heard the word, so must we too. What we hear will be the same as what they heard meaning there will be no discrepancy.

"What we hear will be the same as what they heard meaning there will be no discrepancy."

If we do not hear from an other source. There are three sources that we can hear from:

1. holy spirit
2. human spirit
3. demonic spirit

This is how we identify the source: If what we hear agrees with the bible it is from the Holy Spirit.

Yes agreed but when we are complete in Christ, we will discern the source immediately. My sheep hear my voice. Of course if we are suspicious that it might be from another source we need to check but generally we know if we are following Him as we ought.

This discernment is a gift from God to the godly.

"The written word is God's spoken word to the writers of the Bible."

I would like to correct my statement by this:
Not every word in the Bible is God's word, but some are.
However every word in the Bible is inspired by God.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Brenda said:
"Yes agreed but when we are complete in Christ, we will discern the source immediately. My sheep hear my voice. Of course if we are suspicious that it might be from another source we need to check but generally we know if we are following Him as we ought.

This discernment is a gift from God to the godly."

It depends how "complete" we are and how crafty the devil is.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The apostles took the effort to warn the saints at several occasion of deception. For some reason they did not assume that those believers being "complete" will automatically hear the shepherd's voice. They commended the Bereans that they were diligent and checked everything.
Even good people can be deceived.

Yes agreed that even the elect can be deceived and must know the scriptures but generally they recognise His voice.

The warnings in the NT were generally for the less mature.

by brenda7 on 2016/6/14 15:44:22

Yes agreed but when we are complete in Christ, we will discern the source immediately. My sheep hear my voice. Of course if we are suspicious that it might be from another source we need to check but generally we know if we are following Him as we ought.

This discernment is a gift from God to the godly.

Amen, just as a child is familiar with their mother and father's voice, with a continued "hearing" of the Good Shepherd's voice by the Spirit and in the Word and through obedience we grow and learn to tell the difference between other voices. We must know the truth to be able to tell the difference between the subtle lies of the enemy. It is much like drinking pure water and drinking polluted water. They both look like water, so how do you tell the difference?

All men need water to survive but not all water is good for you. Jesus intimated as much when He said:

"Whosoever drinketh of this water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life" (John 4:14).

The Lord knows that his Enemy also offers "water".

You can see that He is contrasting His water with "other" water.

Water is used for Bible doctrine, for the perfect Word of God: Ephesians 5:26, "....to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word."

The water that God gives us is pure, untainted water. It is not foul and contains nothing that could harm us.

Heb_10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with PURE water.

Rev_22:1 And he shewed me a PURE river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Contrast that with foul water which is a metaphor in the Bible for false doctrine and teachings.

Eze 34:19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; AND THEY DRINK THAT WHICH YE HAVE FOULED WITH YOUR FEET.

Eze 32:2 Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say unto him, Thou art like a young lion of the nations, and thou art as a whale in the seas: and thou camest forth with thy rivers, and TROUBLEDST THE WATERS WITH THY FEET, and FOULEDST THEIR RIVERS.

Feet are also an interesting thing:
God told Joshua that "Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses."

The Enemy of Christ wants to take possession of every place his foot trods and he is most interested in trodding upon men. Eastern conquerors used to set their feet on the necks of conquered princes, Joshua 10:22. There is not much you can do when men are standing on your neck. Remember, he seeks to counterfeit Christ, setting himself up to men AS Christ. He wants all authority and he wants to give you his water and have you drink from him. Who you drink from is who you are giving authority over to in your life.

Men can stand beside you, under you or above you, metaphorically speaking. Feet can signify authority and possession and standing.

Interestingly, Jesus does not force-feed us the water of life. We have to receive His cup of salvation and then bring it to our "mouth" and drink deeply of it. The taking and receiving of what God gives is our responsibility. The giving is His.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

I suspect we have all drank of fouled water (mixture, lies and truth). Maybe we should sip a bit more and gulp less. Slosh it around in our mouths a bit and see if we sense any bitter taste before we actually "swallow" it. Sometimes, you just don't know something is bad for you until you actually do swallow it (act on it) so we need our "senses (palate) exercised to discern both good and evil" (Heb 5:13).

Unlike Adam, I don't believe we are supposed to "know" evil by experiencing it? We are to discern it, and flee from it, but not experience it. By partaking of Jesus (pure Water of Life), we will know what is foul water (discernment) and refuse it.

You actually have to act on God's Word to know if it is true. Head knowledge won't do it.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Here is a good test that you can keep in mind. If it takes away from Jesus Christ in any way, or diminishes Him or brings Him lower than something or someone, then it just might be a cup you don't want to drink from.

"The warnings in the NT were generally for the less mature."

We can even be deceived in our judgement of how mature we are.
If a person thinks that he is mature enough and is not, he is in great danger of being further deceived.

I think the warning was for everybody. The same way that we need to repent from time to time from our sins, we also need from time to time examine the voice that we hear with the bible. When we commit fleshly acts the voice of our flesh might be strong enough to suppress the voice of God. But when we repent, we recognize where we were, and how ignorant we were about that voice.

Very good post Julius.

Saints there are cultures in the world that do not have a literary tradituon. They are what is known as oral cultures. Their tradition is based on stories. Thus missions employ a methodology known as orality. Indigenous missionaries are trained in story sets of the scriptures to go and story the gospel. This is how oral people are reached with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We have this Western mindset to assume that God speaks only through the printed word. But God speaks His truth in dynamic ways and through different means. This does not change the truth of the Gospel. But different mediums are employed to communicate the truth of Jesus Christ.

As I have said repeatedly God is not bound to speak through the printed word. But God will speak his truth in different mediums to reach people for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Truth is absolute and that it is found in Jesus Christ. But truth of Jesus Christ is communicated in different mediums. We have to stop this worship of the printed word. To think that God only speaks through the printed word.

Truth is dynamic. God communicates his truth in different ways. Storying is one of the most powerful ways in which the truth is communicated to a culture that cannot read the printed word.

"We have this Western mindset to assume that God speaks only through the printed word."

Please let this strawman die. Nobody here believes that.

One of the thing to realize is that the first century church did not have access to the printed word. The first century Christians were basically illiterate for the most part. Thus truth was communicated orally. Also the Holy Spirit powerfully moved in the book of Acts. There was a greater dependence upon the Holy Spirit for revelation and Truth.

Again we must stop this worship of the printed word. And look to Him who is the Living Word and who communicates his truth in dynamic ways. The printed word being only one of those means.

Sister I beg to differ. This mindset is very prevalent in the West. Particularly to those who hold the theology of cessationism. In their minds their concept of the Trinity is Holy Father, Holy Son and Holy Bible. Though they will not articulate as such. Their theology reflects that.

I have heard those who hold to this theology discount the fact that Muslims are coming to Christ in dreams and visions. The same men would also discount the use of orality and storying the gospel. In reading their statements these men have said that the only way that one can truly be converted is to sit under the polemic teaching of the printed word of God.

Far from being a straw man argument. This is a very strong mindset held by prominent Bible teachers who believed that the printed word is central in all things.

Bro you're the expert on history of Biblical translations. But my understanding is that the first scriptures were not canonized until the mid 300's. Give or take.

Our cessationist friends would have us believe that we had a completed Bible around 100 AD. Thus no need for the Spirit to work. Since we had the printed word.

But from what I have gleaned, particularly in the first century, there was no completed Bible for the house churches.

That is not to say that truth was not being proclaimed. If anything that illustrates what I'm saying that truth was being proclaimed. But it was not being proclaimed through the printed word. The truth has been proclaimed through the Holy Spirit giving revelation to the various house churches in the first century.

Dear Baline,
This thread is intended to be a discussion about the authority of the Scripture. It is not intended to be a debate with "our cessationist friends" who are not present at this time to speak for themselves.

Sister not trying to derail your thread but bringing up a point. There are those who say that God speaks only through the printed word, the Bible, which we understand to be the Scriptures. These people would say that for God to speak any other way is heresy. Or at least the deception of the devil.

Perhaps we should make a distinction between the scriptures and Truth. Perhaps the question should be posed. And this may be another thread but can God speak truth in other ways or I should say by other medium outside of the printed word.

Can the gospel be communicated apart from the printed word, the Bible?

Some people keep referring to "cessationists", but I don't know of any in this forum.

Maybe cessationist means something to them than what I realize.

cessationism
n.\tThe concept, amongst most Christians, that the works of the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues, prophecy, healing, and miracles) ceased at some point in history

Looking at that definition, I can think of no one on this forum that fits it.

Bear, the scriptures are truth. Some of it is historical truth. Some of it is objective truth which is meant to become subjective (experienced) truth.

It is all truth. No lies in the Bible.

There is a reason why the Vatican kept the scriptures from the common man and even persecuted and killed those who translated the scriptures in the common language.

There is a reason today why the Vatican relies more on feelings, and pomp and riches and position and politics more on the word.

There is a reason today why the Vatican does not encourage Catholics to read the bible and tell them that only the priests/magisterium are commissioned to teach and interpret it.

Look at the darkness that predominantly Catholic countries are in.

I have known Catholics that are involved in all manner of spiritual and fleshly sin. Superstition, spiritism, tarot cards, gambling, drinking, fornication, adultery, etc, etc. And they are church goers. Unfortunately, there are many non-catholics that have abandoned the word and are sadly no better off than Catholics.