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Questions About the Doctrine Called "Soul Sleep"

S
sermonindex

I know that when Christians support their belief that the dead are currently conscious, they find it easy to do so with the help of some New Testament passages (Luke 16:19-31, Luke 23:43, Philippians 1:20-23 and 2nd Corinthians 5:6-8). However, I am trying to figure out if there are Old Testament verses that clearly support the idea. As I make an unbiased search of the Old Testament, I can’t seem to find anything that clearly supports the idea, but instead I see the contrary.

Instead of verses that imply the dead are currently conscious, I find verses that blatantly state the opposite. For example Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

I am not opposed to traditional teaching if it is correct. However, if traditional teaching seems to go against truth, then I am willing to abandon tradition for the truth that the word of God states. So based upon what the Old Testament seems to clearly endorse, I am prepared to abandon the idea that the dead are currently conscious. However, before doing so, I was just wondering if maybe I am overlooking something. Is there anything in the Old Testament to clearly supports the idea that the dead are currently conscious.

Please note, I am not ignoring the New Testament verses I posted at the top, however, I don’t feel that on their own they are a strong enough reason to reject what the remainder of scripture seems to blatantly teach.

Also, I am curious as to why this doctrine seems to generate so much passion. I don’t really understand why people are opposed to the idea that the soul sleeps until the resurrection. After all, it is not like one notices the time pass. So this has me puzzled. As I research this subject online, I find that those who fully support the idea that the dead are immediately in heaven or hell leave no room for argument. Then tend to insist that it is only cults who teach the idea of "soul sleep.” But I find this really puzzling. For one thing, I can’t really see why it is offensive to believe that after death a person is asleep until the resurrection. And secondly, as I try to look at the scripture through unbiased eyes, I can’t help but notice that the scripture seems to highly favor the idea of soul sleep. So for those two reasons, I cannot understand the strong opposition to the doctrine.

Can anyone shed some light on this subject and point out something that maybe I am missing? Thank You!

S
sermonindex

Dear Q,

Enoch and Elijah went straight to God :-)

Ecclesiastes 12:7 says

"and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it"

L

S
sermonindex

Thank religion that there is no agenda with this "honest" enquiry.

S
sermonindex

Carmine,

Is my question honest? Yes and No. While my mind is pretty much now made up on this issue, it wasn't always so. It is only recently that I have pretty much abandoned the notion that the dead are currently conscious. However, I didn't come to this conclusion because of any influence of the SDA or Jehova's witness (nor am I associated with them in any way, shape or form). Instead, I came to it by making a choice to search scripture without any preconceived ideas. It is my own search of scripture that has led me to my conclusion. So yes, for the most part, my mind in made up and at this point it is unlikely to change unless I found clear scriptural reason to do so. So, that is why I ask the question, I am honestly interested to see if I have by chance overlooked something that should cause me to reconsider.

As far as having an agenda, my only agenda is stated above. I have no desire to promote my conclusion or persuade anyone at Sermonindex to embrace it. It is the conclusion I have reached, I am confident that that is what the scripture teaches and that is good enough for me. However, I do want to make sure that I am not missing something that the scripture clearly teaches. For that reason I have ask you for your take on the issue. Since it is not my intention to persuade others, I give you my word that I will not post any kind of reply for the purpose of establishing the conclusion I have reached. I will simply read the replies from others and make no comment.

However,with that all said, I am still interested as to why people are so opposed to the idea of soul sleep. I am not asking why thy aren't willing to embrace it, instead I am only asking why they find it so offensive. To me it seems like a harmless doctrine that has a whole lot of scriptural support, however, those who embrace it seem to immediately be thought of as a heretic. Why such passion for a doctrine that is unclear and unoffensive?

Seeking honest answers to the questions above is the only "agenda" I have.

T
TMK

From a purely practical standpoint, there would be no experiential difference between "sleeping" from the point of death to the resurrection, or immediately being in heaven. This is because after death, the next conscious experience will be heaven, whether the soul has been "sleeping" or not. A dead person is not literally sleeping, or dreaming or experiencing any passage of time. So from the believer's standpoint, his next conscious experience after death would be heaven, whether he literally goes at the point of death, or if he is "sleeping" for years.

But people do get passionate about it, no doubt. I agree that the weight of the OT seems to suggest the grave is the end game at least until the resurrection. There is not total consistency on this in the OT however.

I think that Jesus's words in Mark 12:26-27 strongly suggest that souls are not sleeping: "But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

Jesus seems to be saying that at the time God spoke with Moses at the burning bush, that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were alive, at that time, or at least their "spirits" were.

But even so this is not an issue I would go to battle over because again I don't think it makes an experiential difference.

S
sermonindex

Hey Todd, can I ask you this? (And once again this is an honest question I am asking looking for your answer. I am not asking this question in hopes of pushing my position).

If you were to pick up and read the Old Testament without any prior religious knowledge or influence, do you think you would be confused about the issue of what happens at death or do you think it would be clear?

T
twayneb

questionmark: I do not think there is an agenda at all in the question itself. I am from a VERY traditional pentecostal background, and was taught the doctrine of soul sleep all my life. So actually, I called that doctrine into question rather than the other way around. I do have a couple observations and questions that might be worth chasing down.

1. Jesus said that He was going to prepare a place for us, and that if He did this, He would come again and receive us unto Himself that where He is we may be also. Since He has not come again yet, can we yet go to where He is? In other words, does this statement of Jesus imply that we do not go directly to heaven?

2. When Christ returns, the souls of the dead return with Him and their bodies are raised again. Scripture does tell us that the spirit returns to the father. But does this say anything about the consciousness of the spirit during that time?

3. If we do go directly to heaven, or directly to hell when we die, then what purpose could there be in the great white throne judgment? Do I remove you for a moment from torment or from bliss simply to tell you that you have to go to torment or bliss?

I like TMK's point. When we die, our next conscious moment will be the same whether it is the next instant or whether our soul's sleep until that day. So then the question must be asked, at least I think, whether there is a compelling reason why it must be one way or the other? And, is scripture clear enough to teach without doubt one way or the other?

Just a few questions thrown out to consider.

T
TMK

QM-

I would agree that the great weight of OT evidence is that the dead go to Sheol which is simply the grave. David talks about it repeatedly in the psalms.

There are just some passages that might indicate otherwise but are not rock solid. I think the general belief of OT writers was that when they died they would be dead. What their hope was beyond that is not clear. Job seemed to believe in a resurrection. It is not clear how widespread that belief was.

S
Scholar8200

Greetings! On this subject, I believe the story of Lazarus and the Rich man lays everything to rest. Jesus(Truth Personified) would not have described the immediate afterlife in untrue terms. Himself told the thief,''this day, thou shalt be with me in paradise. Bible tells us Jesus descended to the lower parts of the earth(just like He said it happened to the rich man ).
Furthermore, if you consider the OT e.g. Genesis 49:33, Jacob was said to have been ''gathered unto his people'' after yielding up the ghost just like it happened to Lazarus.

Meaning there continues a consciousness after death.

S
sermonindex

What is your view regarding these verses?

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

S
sermonindex

The OT is not the place to establish what happens after death. It has very little to say about the subject. Remember, the Sadducees and the Pharisees violently disagreed as to whether there was even life after death and Paul used that to his advantage. Another thing to remember, the Pharisees, the ones who did believe there was life after death had only been around at the time of Jesus for about 500 years. So, their views on the afterlife was relatively new. It is to Jesus and the NT we must go to give us the clarity of teaching........bro Frank

S
sermonindex

Frank

Please do not go to Jesus for enlightenment. How then can the endless speculation of trying to endlessly misinterpret what has already been clearly disclosed by him concerning the state of the dead in Christ. (and otherwise). This need to be debated as though he did do say what he already stated so as to create uncertainty and thus formulate new and novel doctrines to fit ones mind.
So please Frank, can you please leave Jesus out of this.

T
TMK

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. *******First, the believers who have died will rise from their graves. ******Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. So encourage each other with these words.

S
sermonindex

Exactly, Frank. Jesus and the Holy Spirit (through the Apostles) gave more revelation about this that one cannot find in the OT.

S
sermonindex

Hey Carmine,

I have a pretty good sense of humor and I am pretty sure your are being funny? Please tell me you are being funny? :) ............Bro Frank

T
TMK

Sarcasm at its finest.

S
sermonindex

Frank

You made a good point and it is evident that opinions matter more that what Jesus says/said to some. Even though he repeatedly said that the state of the dead are in a conscious state immediately after death it does not matter to some.

Is it not obvious that the body, flesh and bone or whatever material matter a person leaves behind is the only thing that sleeps and is dead .
Jesus Christ said this and yet here we are debating the most elemental matter
that any genuine. Spirit filled Bible believing person KNOWS to be true.
I do not get why so many clear truths are debated when the scriptures
and Spirit of the Lord clearly set out what is true and what is not.

S
sermonindex

Carmine said

"Frank

You made a good point and it is evident that opinions matter more that what Jesus says/said to some. Even though he repeatedly said that the state of the dead are in a conscious state immediately after death it does not matter to some."

End Quote

That is quite a bold statement you just made there and one that I think needs a little bit of support.

It's a funny thing - if you ask me for clear and blatant scriptures that say the dead are currently unconscious, I can quickly produce 10-15 (and that is being conservative). However, no matter how hard I try, I can't find one verse that clearly states this idea that you insist to be so obvious. Sure, I can find verses that could seem to imply that doctrine, but as far as verses that blatantly establish that doctrine, I am afraid that you will find a grand total of zero. Please enlighten me as to where Jesus clearly and blatantly stated that the dead are immediately conscious. Let me guess, you are going to recite from a parable or you are going to quote what Jesus said to the thief on the cross.

Sure, I admit, if I read those passages with the preconceived idea that the dead are currently conscious, the I guess they would seem to support my preconceived idea. However, if you accept the foundation of truth that is laid out in the Old Testament (and is also heavily supported in the New), then those two passages are hardly reason to abandon ones confidence in the truth the the Old Testament lays out. The story of Lazarus and the Rich man is simply a parable that was told to make the point that those who don't repent because of the law and the prophets will not repent even if they saw a great miracle. And in regards to what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, if you simply change the place of a comma (note that the punctuation is not inspired)that verse can take on a whole different meaning.

I am pretty certain that if Jesus really wanted to overturn the teaching that is clearly laid out in the Old Testament, he would have chose to do so in a way that couldn't easily be disputed. I am pretty sure that Jesus would have clearly said, "I want everyone to know that even though the scripture seems to imply that the dead are unconscious until the resurrection, your understanding is wrong. You need to know that the dead are conscious even as they are dead." Now, that would be a pretty indisputable statement. However, I am pretty certain that you will not find such a blatant statement in the entire scripture, and certainly not from the mouth of Jesus.

So, I am sorry to inform you Carmine, those repeated statements you seem to be convinced Jesus said, really don't exist. You only think they do because you read the Bible though the eyes of your own preconceived idea.

Now that I have come to accept the idea that the dead are not currently conscious, I find that it is very easy to explain why certain verses seem to imply the contrary. However, when I believed that the dead were currently conscious, it was nearly impossible to explain why the rest of scripture seems to clearly refer to those who are dead as sleeping.

Now, I should note, I am not saying any of this in order to promote what I believe. I honestly have no desire to persuade you or anyone else to embrace what I believe. However, I did feel it necessary to respond to the statement you made that Jesus repeatedly said that the dead are conscious. You stated that with such authority that it would seem that it must be true. However, saying something with authority doesn't make a statement true. You need some facts to give your statement authority, however, I am afraid you will find that you don't have those fact.

You can say with authority that Jesus made several statement that can support the preconceived idea that the dead are currently conscious. That statement would be true. But you cannot say that Jesus repeatedly said that the dead are currently conscious. That statement is false.

With that said I would like to ask once again. Why the hostility and dogmatism in regard to this particular doctrine. As TMK pointed out, it really makes no difference in regards to ones experience. If you are truly asleep, then the passage of time is unnoticed. So please explain to me (Carmine specifically) why you seemed to immediately put up a strong defense to this particular post. What is it that bothers you about this particular doctrine? This is a very sincere and honest question, because I just do not understand the strong opposition to it.

S
sermonindex

I will agree with Jesus instead of you

S
sermonindex

I will let your comment speak for itself.

T
twayneb

As I was teaching a Sunday School class recently, someone asked me about my view on the rapture (specifically the typical idea of a pre-trib rapture). I stated that I could find no scripture that clearly taught the idea. I could find several verses that, given a prior commitment to the idea, could be interpreted to fit the idea, but I cannot find one shred of clear Biblical teaching to support the doctrine. So, for now, I had to tell them that I did not know.

I got to know a fellow teacher at my high school recently and he and I quickly began talking about our common faith in Jesus Christ. The conversation was uplifting...until he very pointedly asked me my opinion about the rapture. I told him that I could not find it clearly taught in scripture, and the conversation quickly went sour. He could not accept the fact that I was undecided on the issue, and felt that I had not come to a deep enough understanding of scripture to be settled on the issue. He was very upset that I said I could not find the doctrine clearly taught in scripture. He informed me that he had been reading the Bible and that God had given him special revelation about the rapture. He said that since God had told him that there was a rapture, that I was simply wrong and uninformed. I told him that I did not see the issue as one of the same weight as the doctrine of salvation by grace, the virgin birth, etc.. He informed me that I was sadly mistaken and that this was one of the most important doctrines in scripture. He was very emotional about it and could not accept that I was not and furthermore did not want to argue the matter.

I agree with questionmark in that I cannot find any absolute teaching about the matter. I can find a host of scriptures that can be used to support either viewpoint.

I do see two parallel discussions going on here. First, does the soul of man sleep until the judgement, or is the person conscious. Second, does a person proceed directly to heaven or to hell when he dies. These, in my view, are two different discussions.

I think the reference from Revelation where the souls are under the altar seems to indicate that there is consciousness. However, there is room to doubt that interpretation. Remember, the blood of Abel cried to God from the ground. It was not that his blood literally had a voice. It could be the same with these souls. Look at their location, under the altar. The altar is a place of sacrifice, not a place of reward. And the blood of the sacrifice ran off the altar. So it could be that this scripture is using the same type of language as we see with the blood of Abel crying out.

I do have to admit that there are several scriptures that use the term sleep in reference to death. Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep, and had to clarify that he was dead. So the idea of the soul sleeping until judgement is not one that is scripturally strange or heretical.

I think it would be interesting to have everyone simply post any scriptures that seem to speak one way or the other (preferably without much commentary).

S
sermonindex

Matthew 17:1”“8
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, aI will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

So here we have Moses waking up from his soul sleep in order to converse with Jesus. And Elijah did not wake up because he never died, and yet they appeared
to be of the same substance to the disciple.

Did Moses go back to soul sleep afterwords and become a soul sleeping man again ?

In I Kings 17:20-22: "When the widows son died Elijah cried out three times to the LORD and said, "O LORD my God, I pray, let this child's soul come back to him.” Then the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived. Notice that it came in him. This is not just breath as one can make air go back into someone who just died and they would not revive, this says the soul of the child, it is something he possessed that had left him.

The child's soul was separate from his physical body when he died as this scripture clearly indicates. Did his soul go to sleep in one place and his physical in some other location until Elijah prayed?

One will never read of a soul being resurrected from a physical death. Rather, bodies are resurrected from physical death (Matthew 27:52).Why? Because a soul does not literally die.

The term "sleep” when it is used of death is in reference to the body. Whenever the Bible speaks of death in the sense of sleep it is always used of the physical body and not the soul, because the appearance of a sleeping body and a dead body look very much the same. The term "sleep” is never applied to the soul or the spirit , but only the body.
The soul and the spirit continue to exist after death. whenever the Bible uses the term "sleep” in reference to death of the body. It is never used of the unbelievers in the New Testament. It is a term used only of believers which shows God's viewpoint of the death of a believer. From God's perspective the death of a believer is a temporary suspension of physical activity.
For example, in physical sleep there is a temporary suspension of physical activity until one wakes up, but there is no suspension of the activity of the mind, the soul or spirit, and the sub-consciousness keeps operating (as in Lk.16:19-36 death is not a cessation of existence for either the rich man or Lazarus.)

T
twayneb

Mark 12:25-27 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels in heaven. And as touching the dead, that they rise; ...

John 11:14-15 These things said He: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may wake him out of sleep...Lazarus is dead.

I Cor. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Just a note: The term raised from or resurrection of the dead occurs a copious number of times in the New Testament. I have to question...are all of these verses only referring the reuniting of the spirit with the body, or does it mean the actual reviving of a soul (or spirit depending on how you see it)? Just a thought as I saw the references. 1 Cor. 15:35 seems to indicate that giving life to the body and the resurrection of the dead are different. Notice the wording. But some man will say, how are the dead raised up? And with what body to they come.

1 Thess. 4:13-14 But I would not have ye ignorant brethren concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

A thought occurs to me here as well. We know from Ecclesiastes that when a man dies, his spirit returns to the father. This verse comments on that saying that He will bring those with Him at His returning.


Just a note on the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16). I do not believe it can be used to make a doctrinal statement about heaven, hell, or the state of the soul after death. It is a parable, and the story is meant to make a totally different point, that the religious Jews would not believe in Christ as Messiah, even thought He rose from the dead. To say it teaches on the condition of the soul, to me, would be like saying that the parable of the sower is a doctrinal lesson in middle eastern agriculture or that the parable of the farmer who hired men late in the day and paid them all the same teaches us how to run a business and pay our employees. I think the parable of Lazarus uses the two locations and the gulf between as a vehicle to tell a story to make the real point about the Jew's rejection of Jesus.

S
sermonindex

Questionmark,

If I can say, it is you who seems to be bold. If the Pharisees and the Sadducees, each with their scribes and scholars could not agree if there was even life after death, then how can you state some kind of bold truth on the subect from the OT. If Jesus says to the thief that this day you will be with me in paradise then this is the TRUTH speaking truth. Every other scripture must be interpreted by what the Word made flesh said. Surely you would not argue that there were men in the OT who knew more than Jesus did. So,if we take the unambiguous words of Jesus in this case then all we have to do is work back in the light of what He said. Anything is is an act of futility and perhaps pride......bro Frank

S
sermonindex

Sorry Frank, You only assume Jesus said this because you come to the scripture with your preconceived idea. Your preconceived idea causes you to assume that the comma is by divine origin. However, the comma was placed there by man who also assumed the same as you.

The way you read it: Verily I say unto you, Today you shall be with me in paradise.

The way I read it: Verily I say to you today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

If you can prove to me that the comma was placed there by God, I will then take your words to heart.

And yes, I do tend to give weight to the Old Testament. Cause unlike what you apparently believe, I do believe that the Old Testament was just as much as inspired by the Holy Spirit as anything Jesus said. So I am pretty confident that the same spirit who spoke through Jesus would not say something that contradicts what the same spirit already established through the Old Testament writers. If believing this is what you call being prideful, then I guess I am prideful.

T
TMK

travis wrote:

"1 Thess. 4:13-14 But I would not have ye ignorant brethren concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

A thought occurs to me here as well. We know from Ecclesiastes that when a man dies, his spirit returns to the father. This verse comments on that saying that He will bring those with Him at His returning."
----------------------
But if you go to the next verses in 1 Thess 4 we see;
"15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

The plain reading of these verses is that As Jesus descends the dead will be resurrected first and caught up in the air and THEN return with Him to meet the rest of the saints in the air. There is no requirement in this passage that Jesus is bringing disembodied souls with Him.

T
TMK

Rev wrote:

"Matthew 17:1”“8
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, aI will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”

So here we have Moses waking up from his soul sleep in order to converse with Jesus. And Elijah did not wake up because he never died, and yet they appeared
to be of the same substance to the disciple.

Did Moses go back to soul sleep afterwords and become a soul sleeping man again?"
________________________

But read a tad further down in v. 9: "Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the **vision** to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”

Jesus himself called what they saw a "vision." That is not to say they did not literally see something. I believe Peter literally saw a sheet coming down from heaven with unclean animals on it. Whether the sheet and unclean animals were literally real is another issue. That is not to say that visions cannot be real. Of course they can be. But they are spiritually seen.

T
twayneb

Todd: Maybe...but verse 14 seems to say it pretty plainly that them which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. If it is the souls of the dead that return with God, then their reuniting with their bodies is the resurrection in my view. Then after that resurrection the rest of those alive are also caught up.

By the way, just so you know, I do not have a dog in the fight. I have not seen either side of this clearly enough from scripture to be able to be dogmatic about either perspective.

T
TMK

I don't have a dog in the fight either. I just think the topic can be discussed intelligently and objectively without ripping throats out.

T
twayneb

The term "sleep” when it is used of death is in reference to the body. Whenever the Bible speaks of death in the sense of sleep it is always used of the physical body and not the soul, because the appearance of a sleeping body and a dead body look very much the same. The term "sleep” is never applied to the soul or the spirit , but only the body.
The soul and the spirit continue to exist after death. whenever the Bible uses the term "sleep” in reference to death of the body. It is never used of the unbelievers in the New Testament. It is a term used only of believers which shows God's viewpoint of the death of a believer. From God's perspective the death of a believer is a temporary suspension of physical activity.
For example, in physical sleep there is a temporary suspension of physical activity until one wakes up, but there is no suspension of the activity of the mind, the soul or spirit, and the sub-consciousness keeps operating (as in Lk.16:19-36 death is not a cessation of existence for either the rich man or Lazarus.)

Carmine: You might be right. If so, that brings up the second question. It is the spirit of man, united with the body, that we typically think of as a living soul, although some use soul and spirit interchangeable, and scripture sometimes as well. If the spirit leaves the body, and if the spirit remains conscious, then where does the spirit go? It seems inconsistent to me to for a person to go to heaven or hell, to be brought back out at a future date to face a judgement, simply to be told that you will return to the reward you are already experiencing. I know some have indicated that there is a "holding place" beyond the tomb where spirits wait for the judgment. It comes, I believe, from the reference to Jesus ministering to the spirits in prison. I see way less evidence scripturally for that then there is on either side of the soul sleep discussion.

What I do know is that we must be very careful about using Ecclesiastes as a doctrinal book, just as we would have to be careful about using the chapter of Daniel that was written by Nebuchadnesser as a doctrinal chapter. When I was young, soul sleep was verified, in fact "proven" by the verse in Ecclesiastes that says that the dead know nothing. Taken out of context probably, but used as a proof text all the same.

But there remain too many unanswered questions for me to dismiss the idea altogether. And for every verse on one side, there seems to be one on the other with each side claiming that the other has slightly misrepresented scripture.

This is why I think the discussion is fruitful. I want to see what scriptures are brought to the table and study them more carefully.

T
twayneb

TMK: I totally agree brother. It should be that way with ALL of our discussions. We are here to come to a deeper understanding of scripture, not to argue one point or the other. We should honestly state the way we see it, and be willing for the other person's perspective to challenge us to go to scripture and prayer to know the truth. Oh how our own fallen emotions get in the way sometimes. Funny...none of us are immune. Another topic, but we so desperately need to learn to walk in the spirit rather than in the flesh.

S
sermonindex

â—„ Luke 23:43 â–º
Parallel Verses

Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus
kai eipen autw o ihsous amhn legw soi shmeron met emou esh en tw paradeisw

New International Version
Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Youngs literal translation
and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

Complete Jewish Bible
Yeshua said to him, "Yes! I promise that you will be with me today in Gan-‘Eden.”

New Living Translation
And Jesus replied, "I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise."

English Standard Version
And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Berean Study Bible
And Jesus said to him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Berean Literal Bible
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

New American Standard Bible
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

King James Bible
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And He said to him, "I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise."

International Standard Version
Jesus told him, "I tell you with certainty, today you will be with me in Paradise."

NET Bible
And Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But Yeshua said to him, "Amen, I say to you that today you shall be with me in Paradise.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Jesus said to him, "I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise."

New American Standard 1977
And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

Jubilee Bible 2000
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

King James 2000 Bible
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, Today shall you be with me in paradise.

American King James Version
And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, To day shall you be with me in paradise.

American Standard Version
And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Darby Bible Translation
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

English Revised Version
And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

Webster's Bible Translation
And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Weymouth New Testament
"I tell you in solemn truth," replied Jesus, "that this very day you shall be with me in Paradise."

World English Bible
Jesus said to him, "Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Young's Literal Translation
and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

Only cults like the JW and Seventh Day adventists would put a comma where no comma is.

S
sermonindex

twayneb/ Travis

Paradise is wherever Jesus is. The thief was in paradise on the same day he died
he went to be with Jesus. Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven and his body
was dead. Certainly Jesus soul did not sleep and the thief was with him that very day onward. The thief's soul could not be sleeping if he was in paradise.

The only way to make that verse say other than what Jesus clearly said is to
twist and mistranslate it as the cults do. That is serious heresy and anathema to desecrate the Word of God when even one jot or titlte removed or replaced to create a new doctrine.

Mathew 5:18 KJV
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Deut 4:2
English Standard Version
You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you.

S
sermonindex

Questionmark writes.......

"Sorry Frank, You only assume Jesus said this because you come to the scripture with your preconceived idea. Your preconceived idea causes you to assume that the comma is by divine origin. However, the comma was placed there by man who also assumed the same as you."

I am sorry brother but that made me smile. You say that man placed the comma there, and then you ( man) replace the comma where you want it to be when in fact there were no commas at all :) So it actually reads..........

" Verily I say to you today thou shalt be with me in paradise." .............bro Frank

PS Nothing about the Pharisees and Sadducees? Hmmm.

P
proudpapa

Hi Frank

RE: ///If I can say, it is you who seems to be bold.///

Being bold is one thing, the hostile use of sarcasm is another thing.

Having a strong view on a subject, is very different than excusing mistreatment of others based on believing one is justified in treating others cruely simply because one feels they hold the correct dogmatic position.

edit change 'they' : 'one hold' for clarity
also add : simply, feels, they

S
sermonindex

Todd the greek in Matthew 17:9 suggests the word used by some translations is either "vision" and also other translated to "what you have seen".

Does it mean vision as in supernatural vision or just something someone saw in real life? In either case the Bible states that they saw these men as real men and not just apparitions. They may have been tele-visions but even so they were live broadcasts of real people and of a real event.

kai katabainontwn autwn ek tou orouV eneteilato autoiV o ihsouV legwn mhdeni eiphte to orama ewV ou o uioV tou anqrwpou ek nekrwn egerqh

King James Version
17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


American Standard Version
17:9 And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen from the dead.


Bible in Basic English
17:9 And when they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus gave them orders, saying, Let no man have word of what you have seen, till the Son of man has come again from the dead.


Darby's English Translation
17:9 And as they descended from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no one, until the Son of man be risen up from among the dead.


Douay Rheims
17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying: Tell the vision to no man, till the Son of man be risen from the dead.


Noah Webster Bible
17:9 And as they were descending the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be raised again from the dead.


Weymouth New Testament
17:9 As they were descending the mountain, Jesus laid a command upon them. 'Tell no one,' He said, 'of the sight you have seen till the Son of Man has risen from among the dead.'


World English Bible
17:9 As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, 'Don't tell anyone what you saw, until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.'


Young's Literal Translation
17:9 And as they are coming down from the mount, Jesus charged them, saying, 'Say to no one the vision, till the Son of Man out of the dead may rise.'

S
sermonindex

PP, you have confused me but then I am easily confused, can you explain what you are talking about? .........bro Frank

S
sermonindex

Frank Writes

"I am sorry brother but that made me smile. You say that man placed the comma there, and then you ( man) replace the comma where you want it to be when in fact there were no commas at all :) So it actually reads..........

" Verily I say to you today thou shalt be with me in paradise." .............bro Frank

PS Nothing about the Pharisees and Sadducees? Hmmm."
End Quote

I am glad I made you smile Frank, but I think in your haste to post your (seemingly arrogant) reply, you completely missed the point I was trying to make, and then went on to actually establish the point I was trying to make in your reply.

I was simply showing you how you read the text, and in order to do so I used a comma. I then used a comma to show you how I read the text. The point of my reply was not to move the comma, but the point of my reply was to completely take the comma away and let the remainder of scripture influence how we read the verse.

If the scriptures were translated without the assumed punctuation, then this scripture you rely on would no longer carry any weight. But because the translators placed the comma where they assumed one should go, you use their assumption as absolute evidence that the dead are currently conscious. You place so much faith in the assumed placement of the comma that you even choose to disregard everything the Old Testament clearly states.

The difference between us is this: You have chosen to allow the placement of a comma decide how you interpret the Old Testament teachings. I on the other hand have chosen to let the Old Testament (and Paul’s writings) influence where I place the comma.

The idea that we should interpret the Old Testament though the words of Jesus may sound good on the surface, but actually the idea is wrong. The same Holy Spirit who spoke through Jesus is the same Holy Spirit who spoke in the Old Testament. Jesus is not going to say anything that would blatantly contradict something that is established in the Old Testament. And if a passage makes it appear he did, then I can assure you that you need to closely examine that passage because there is sure be an explanation (such as a misplaced comma). The Holy Spirit who clearly laid out the doctrine that the dead are unconscious in the Old Testament, did not suddenly change his mind as he spoke through Jesus in the New Testament. It is for this reason that every passage that seems to imply the contrary can easily be explained with a reasonable explanation.
.
In regards to the Pharisees and Sadducees, I am pretty sure that Jesus never once had anything good to say about them. I am pretty sure he called them blind, and I am pretty sure he said that they let their traditions override the law of God. I am also pretty sure that when discussing the subject of the resurrection with them, he plainly said in Matthew 22:29 , Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

So according to Jesus, it wasn’t that the subject couldn’t be understood from scriptures, the problem was that they didn’t know the scriptures.

If you think I am prideful to assume that I know more than the Scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees, then yep, I am absolutely prideful. While you may feel like you belong to their club, I do not. I am simply a child of Abraham and have faith towards God as my father Abraham had. As a result, I am an heir of the promise. I am made one with Christ and I am filled with the same Spirit that dwells in Him. Yes, the Scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees were blind and had erred because they did not know the scriptures. They also did not know the God who inspired those scriptures. However, I do know the God who inspired them and therefore I feel confident that I understand the subject pretty well. After all, if one will simply put aside all preconceived ideas and read the scripture for what it says, it is really not that difficult of a subject. If you consider yourself blind like the Pharisees and Sadducees, then more power to you. But as far as I am concerned, I am very thankful that I can see.

With that said, I want to state again. I did not make my original post to shove my position down anyone’s throats. I can honestly say that I don’t care which way you believe. Am I pretty confident of my position? Absolutely! But do I feel a need to persuade you or anyone else to believe it? Absolutely not! I do not need the affirmation of others to make me feel better about what I believe, and that is not why I came here. I originally made this post simply because I wanted to know if anyone could provide me a Old Testament verse that clearly indicates that the dead are currently conscious. I was not looking for an argument, just a verse. I have studied the issue with great diligence lately and have not found one. So just to be sure I wasn’t overlooking something, I thought it might be a good idea to access the Sermon Index knowledge base. That was my primary purpose for making this post.

In addition to requesting specific verses, I also ask why this issue is such a hot topic for some. I wanted to know why those who hold to the idea that the dead are conscious tend to think of those who don’t hold to that view as heretics; especially, considering the fact that the scripture seems to offer plenty of support for the opposing view. I was not trying to convince people who believe that the dead are currently conscious that they are wrong; I just wanted to know why they get so bothered by those who don’t hold to their view. I thought it was a reasonable question and I still do. However, instead of getting an answer, I have only encountered the hostility that I am questioning (specifically from you (Frank) and Carmine). I am just really curious as to what provokes this kind of passion.

So, in all sincerity and honesty I ask again, and I ask you Frank and Carmine specifically. Why do you feel such hostility towards those who do not hold to your view on this matter? If it was a very clear cut issue I could understand, but in light of the fact it is not clear cut, I do not understand. So please - Enlighten me.

Edit: "Hostility" may be too strong of a word, but in absence of a better one at the moment, I will leave it as it is and trust you understand.

T
TMK

Rev-

I am certainly not demanding that what the apostles saw during the transfiguration was not real and that the souls, or whatever, of Moses and Elijah were not really there.

I just wanted to note that in some translations Jesus called what they saw a vision, whatever that means.

I really enjoy discussions like this where regardless of who is correct, a lot does not ride on the outcome.

If soul sleep is true, my next conscious experience after death will be the presence of Jesus.

If soul sleep is NOT true, my next conscious experience after death will be the presence of Jesus.

I agree with Travis however that the idea of disembodied spirits, while maybe true, does cause problems like in the case of Lazarus. Lazarus died; if his spirit or soul went to heaven it obviously returned to his body when his body returned to life. In earthly time that was 4 days; but we often hear that in heaven there is no time. So how "long" had he experienced "heaven" before being snatched back to his earthly body? When he arrived in heaven did they tell him "don't get too used to this buddy?" Perhaps he was still standing in line at the pearly gates and had not yet gotten in? Interesting stuff. The cool thing is someday I'll be able to ask Lazarus that question.

It also seems strange that scripture never says what these resurrected people experienced while "out of body." I see a few possibilities: 1) they experienced nothing so there was nothing to tell; 2) they didn't want to talk about it; 3) none of the writers, through the HS, thought it was important to write down what they said if they DID talk about it. If #3 is correct, we should give absolutely no credence to anyone's testimony today about near-death experiences.

S
sermonindex

Todd you said

If #3 is correct, we should give absolutely no credence to anyone's testimony today about near-death experiences.

good point

S
sermonindex

And why is this doctrine of soul sleep so important to the Jehovah Witnesses's
and Seventh Day Adventists?

Some here believe it is rather innocuous but there must be a reason they believe this fabricated twisting of the scriptures. What purpose does it serve them?

S
sermonindex

Seriously, I ask an honest question, and this is the best response you have. I ask why the hostility, and you only reply with more hostility? There must be some reason for it. After all, if this were truly the black and white issue you insist it is, you would be able to actually post something with substance instead post that only reek of dogmatism and accusations.

S
sermonindex

Wow questionmark, that was quite a mouthful. The reason I said it made me smile was not to injure any fragile egos , it was simply to keep it light. We can easily agree to disagree on this non-essential subject, so lets just do that and God bless you. I am disturbed by the dismissal of the final authority of Jesus when He speaks unambiguously. But let us agree to disagree on that to. I am disturbed that you seem to dismiss the notion that it is the Holy Spirit that leads and guides us into all truth. The Holy Spirit was given to the Church at Pentecost who then went on and wrote, through the Apostles, the NT. Jesus had come to teach us rightly what the OT was actually saying through the prophets.

It is because of Jesus and the Holy Spirit that we can understand what the the OT was actually teaching, as seen on the sermon on the mount. But, we can agree to disagree on that too. Tozer said that the Word of God is revelation but can only be understood by inspiration, the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I believe that and you may to then we would have something that we can agree upon and that would be nice :)

T
TMK

Rev wrote:

"And why is this doctrine of soul sleep so important to the Jehovah Witnesses's and Seventh Day Adventists?"

Good question- not sure why it's so important but it is one of their distinctives.

To be fair though, I do know true Christians who are not SDA or JW who believe that when we're dead, we're dead-- until the Resurrection.

W
watchnpray

Brethren, brethren (true lambs only), calmez vous, s’il vous plait! "Soul (a)sleep” or "sentient soul” ”“ what substantive difference does it make for our salvation? (That is why I quite like Todd’s nonchalant view of the matter ”“ either way, the "dead in Christ” are goin’ HOME!)

But "(c)onsider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body.”

Wasn’t all this instigated by the aptly-named "questionmark” who quite distinctly stated also: "Since it is not my intention to persuade others, I give you my word that I will not post any kind of reply for the purpose of establishing the conclusion I have reached. I will simply read the replies from others and make no comment.” "Sseeking honesst ansswersss to the quesstionsss above iss the only ‘agenda’ I have.” (Quirky emphasis mine.)

(And then QM proceeds to upbraid those who are adamantly in favor of the alternative position ”“ while progressively fleshing out his own ”“ with a tone reminiscent of those who go: You’re mad. I’m not mad. Yes, you are. No, I’m not. Of course you are; it’s obvious. I tell you I’m not! You are, too! I’m telling you I’m NOT MAD!! Etc.)

Well, that’s the view from the bleachers.

S
sermonindex

EDIT:

by twayneb on 2016/6/22 18:13:24

1. Jesus said that He was going to prepare a place for us, and that if He did this, He would come again and receive us unto Himself that where He is we may be also. Since He has not come again yet, can we yet go to where He is? In other words, does this statement of Jesus imply that we do not go directly to heaven?

What was Jesus' very important discussion in John 14, about?

1. He is talking about leaving the disciples but He is also talking about coming back again, to dwell in them.
2. He is trying to tell them why it is good for Him to leave.
3. He is telling them how He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. So, they can understand that Jesus will also be in them and they will be in Him.

4. He is trying to reassure them that He will not leave them comfortless.
5. He tells them that the Spirit will dwell with them and be in them.

Now, what did Jesus start John 14 with?

He tells His disciples that He is leaving but that He will come again to them, that where He is, they may be also.

What happens when one is born-again and receives the Holy Spirit? Jesus comes to them. In the disciples case, He came to them again, but this time to dwell in them.

They are now seated with Christ in heavenly places. Their conversation (way of life and their King) is in heaven. Their spirit has now been joined to His Spirit. The kingdom of God is not anything we see or handle (meat nor drink), but righteousness, peace and joy IN the HOLY GHOST. Of course, we see some things like other believers but nothing else on earth (material possessions) you will see in heaven.

Those of us who have the Holy Spirit and have been born-again, Jesus has come to you and received you unto Himself that where He is, you may be also. You have "tasted of the heavenly gift".

Heb 6:4 ...and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit is speaking...


Do you deny that Jesus has come to you in your flesh?

The disciples could not and did not deny that Jesus had come to them AGAIN, but this time, within their very body of flesh which houses their spirit.

C
Christinyou

If Christ is in us "the hope of glory", then what happens when the flesh dies? What happens to the Holy Spirit that has come into us also to reveal Jesus Christ in you, of whom He will only speak of what Christ wants Him to reveal of Himself to us?

How do we in Christ who dwell in the heavenly place already in Christ believe that when we die that existence continue? Paul who was in Christ and Christ in him some two thousand years ago just sleeps and Christ and The Holy Spirit just bide their time until the Father who bring the dead in Christ with Him when we are caught up together with Christ and taken to the Fathers house where Jesus has been preparing a place for us, or are we with Christ and the Holy Spirit who is with us forever, and even the Father making their abode with us, How are we to say nothing happens to Paul for 2000 years? Is our soul/spirit which is now the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirits temple, put on hold until Jesus comes again? How is that a comfort to the believers. I believe I am in Christ and He is in me and I will be learning Him forevermore, including in death, for He will never leave me or forsake me..

My life is now Christ Life, not separation for 2000 years.

The Life I know live I live by the Faith of the Son of God, or is that faith just shut off when this body gives up the ghost.

Who was Jesus preaching the Gospel to when His body lay dead in the tomb?

In Christ, alive for evermore: Phillip

T
TMK

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.


I always thought the imprisoned spirits were those fallen angels consigned to "Tartarus."

At any rate the above passage lends scant support to the premise suggested because it is exceedingly unclear who these spirits in prison are.

S
sermonindex

Todd

The point is these spirits are not sleeping whoever they may be,
Unless they are allowed to take naps.

T
TMK

Who says the "spirits" were human beings?

Does the bible anywhere else refer to human beings as merely "spirits?"

See Jude 1:6: "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling””these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day."

These spirits were the Nephilim and Jesus was proclaiming victory over them.

At any rate the 1 Peter passage is a very weak scripture to disprove the idea of "soul sleep." Again, that is not to say that "soul sleep" is a true doctrine.

S
sermonindex

Job 32:8 - But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

Proverbs 20:27 - The spirit of man [is] the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Romans 8:16 - The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

1 Corinthians 6:17 - But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Zechariah 12:1 - The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 4:24 - God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Romans 8:10 - And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

1 Corinthians 6:19 - What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

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