war on the saints

http://www.apostasynow.com/wots/Contents.html

Above is the link to this e-book by Jessie Penn-Lewis
This was written a long time ago, but is surprisingly relevant today.

Amen brother,

thank you for sharing, this actual website is what the Lord led me to many years ago about 10 years! This is the unabridged copy and has content that newer versions of the book take out. This is a very relevant book, Jesse Penn-Lewis was an eyewitness to the welsh revival and Evan Roberts helped oversee this volume from what I read.

I think it was just gossip which goes around like wild fire concerning people who are involved in revivals. Jessie was married to a minister and well thought of so l doubt the tales. Evans went to stay at their house after he had his breakdown.

I have this book BUT I have heard many stories of how this woman became a controlling influence over Evan Roberts to the extent that she caused him to go into deep depression. Such a character and personality alarmed me enough to stay away from her book because something is not right in her own life.

From what I have read it seems many of these books are from modern charismatic preachers that are dabbling in the same deceptions that she exposes. I have seen some modern TV preachers "rail" at Jesse Penn Lewis as a very dangerous person etc.

Yeah, I agree Brenda. Hard to believe someone could write that kind of book and then fall for elementary deception. Gossip and slander for sure. Satan does not want to be exposed, and this book exposes him and his workings. As a side note, one will encounter warfare in trying to read it.

Terrible book on many levels. Could write a book about how bad this book is.

This is howthe book starts:

"Truth of every kind makes free, while lies bind up in bonds. Ignorance also binds up, because it gives ground to Satan. Man's ignorance is a primary and essential condition for deception by evil spirits. The ignorance of the people of God concerning the powers of darkness, has made it easy for the devil to carry out his work as deceiver. Unfallen man in his pure state was not perfect in knowledge. Eve was ignorant of "good and evil," and her ignorance was a condition which lent itself to the deception of the serpent.

The devil's great purpose, and for which he fights, is to keep the world in ignorance of himself, his ways, and his colleagues, and the Church is taking sides with him when siding with ignorance about him. Every man should keep an attitude of openness to all truth, and shun the false knowledge which has slain its tens of thousands, and kept the nations in the deception of the devil."

The first paragraph of the book speaks volumes:

"Truth of every kind makes free, while lies bind up in bonds. Ignorance also binds up, because it gives ground to Satan. Man's ignorance is a primary and essential condition for deception by evil spirits. The ignorance of the people of God concerning the powers of darkness, has made it easy for the devil to carry out his work as deceiver." - Jesse Penn-Lewis

more of her writings are here: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=category&cid=49

Julius yes agreed, l felt something turning me off from reading the book when l first started it and am very pleased that l did not stop. Her advice has helped me with my discernment more than once.

Many believers have said that they found freedom from the book.

I haven't read the book, just the comments and paragraphs on this thread. But I think I can already see why it causes some controversy. May I share some thoughts

Quote : "Eve was ignorant of "good and evil," and her ignorance was a condition which lent itself to the deception of the serpent."

Here is what scripture says (Romans 5:19)
"For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."
Adam and Eve disobeyed the Word of God and that lead to the fall.

Quote: "The devil's great purpose, and for which he fights, is to keep the world in ignorance of himself, his ways, and his colleagues,"
Even if we are fully aware of the devil this doesn't mean that we have victory. Here is how Jesus won the ultimate victory:

"(Jesus )emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death ”” even death on a cross. 9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place, and gave Him the name above all names," (Philippians 2:8)

Here is the story about Peter that we all know:
" and Peter was following at a distance. 55 And when they had kindled a fire in the middle of the courtyard and sat down together, Peter sat down among them. 56 Then a servant girl, seeing him as he sat in the light and looking closely at him, said, "This man also was with him.” 57 But he denied it (Luke 22:54-62)

This reminds me a bit of the decline of the western church: to follow at a distance - to sit down at the fire with non- believers and have a comfortable live

"Trust and obey, for there’s no other way
To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey."

Quote from the 3rd chapter:

"Some of the members of Christ are yet in the stage of babyhood, and others do not even know the initial reception of the Holy Spirit. To such this book has not much to say, as they are among the weaker ones who need the "milk of the Word." But there are others, who may be described as the advance guard of the Church of Christ, who have been baptized with the Holy Ghost, or who are seeking that Baptism; honest and earnest believers, who sigh and cry over the powerlessness of the true Church of Christ, and who grieve that her witness is so ineffective"

NDY wrote:

"Terrible book on many levels. Could write a book about how bad this book is."

Indeed, a little truth piled up with much error is the basic content of this persons self induced revelations. Most biblical Christians and not just some charismatic fringe groups have serious misgivings about many of her false teaching.

"Those who locate God personally, and wholly in themselves, make themselves, by their assertions, practically, "divine" persons. God is not wholly in any man.note 6 He dwells in those who receive Him, by His own Spirit communicated to them. "God is Spirit," and mind or body cannot hold communion with spirit. Sensuous feelings, or "conscious" physical enjoymentnote 7 of some supposed spiritual presence is not true communion of spirit with spirit, such as the Father seeks from those who worship Him (John 4: 24).

God is in heaven. Christ the Glorified Man is in heaven. The location of the God we worship is of supreme importance. If we think of our God as in us, and around us, for our worship, and for our "enjoyment" (?) we unwittingly open the door to the evil spirits in the atmosphere which surrounds us; instead of our penetrating in spirit through the lower heavens (see Heb. 4: 14; 9: 24; 10: 19, 20) to the throne of God, which is in the highest heaven, "above principality and power, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but in that which is to come" (Eph. 1: 21, A.V.)."

You can find more of this in Chapter 6

Wow, what made up pseudo spiritual sounding heresy, Christians cannot be possessed by satan as this writer states

"Those who say they cannot be deceived by Satan, already are" J P-L somewhere.

The book defines posession in chapter 4 as follows:

"a hold of evil spirits on a man in any shade of degree"

FIVE FATAL FLAWS
Penn-Lewis’ flawed thinking, ex- cesses and errors involve five subjects, which become the foundation of her theological system.
She views her own writings as divinely inspired.
She tilts toward rudimentary Word-Faith view.
Her views of sanctification were really the views of her time and of her own spiritual struggles. She locked believers into what she had experi- enced.
Her views of the inner nature of man led to introspection and confu- sion.
She viewed the Great Tribulation period as beginning about 1906 with the great and intense outpouring of demons on the Church and into Christians.
Penn-Lewis laid the seedbed for ‘‘territorial demon’’ teaching, prayer walks, and the likes of Frank Peretti novels. She claimed to have unique insights into the unseen world, which grew out of her obsession with the tribulation and an almost dualistic view of spiritual warfare. Her super- stitious slant on demons as being territorial and bewitching certain geo- graphical areas are lifted out of the teachings of a 17th century writer, Dr. Goodwin.24
Another confusing quirk of Penn- Lewis was to call sin and some emotional conditions ‘‘demons.’’ She expressed her view this way:
‘‘There is the drink wickedness: that is the spirit of drink. The tattling wickedness: that is the spirit of tattling. Perhaps you haven’t understood the ‘wicked- nesses that are spirits’ when
these foes were attacking you and pushing you to do things that you did not want to do in your heart. ... Then, too, there are the private meetings of the Lord’s children when they pass ton from one to the other the spirit of depression, which they do not recognize and immedi- ately refuse because they do not discern the working of the ‘power of the air’ at work around them! ... Evil things that come into your mind are not yours if you recognize their origin and refuse them.’’25

Penn-Lewis took her demonology to incredible extremes even claiming to know exactly where demons could reside in the body of a Christian. This is purely gnostic: personal, subjective, secret, unmediated knowledge, at worst ”” and wild imagination, at best.
She proposed in War on the Saints
that demons:
’’... bury themselves in the very structure of the human frame,
some acting directly upon the organs or appetites of the body, others upon the mind or intellect, sensibilities, emotions and affec- tions, and others more immedi- ately upon the spirit. In the body they specially locate themselves in the spinal column, nervous system, and deepest nerve cen- tres, through which they control the whole being; from the gangli- onic nerve centre located in the bowels, the emotional sensibili- ties, and all organs affected by them, to the cerebral nerve centre in the head, the eyes, ears, neck, jaws, tongue, muscles of the face, and delicate nerve tissues of the brain. They may obtain access gradually and insidiously, as al- ready shown, but there are in- stances where they make a sud- den assault, so as to rush the victim into involuntary surren- der.’’73
From the perspective of Penn- Lewis, there was hardly a part of the body safe from pestiferous spirits. Likewise in her view, demons could jump into and/or onto almost any part of the body at any time and possess believers. No wonder most of the circulated editions of War on the Saints are abridged and cleaned up with the extreme nonsense edited out. The book belongs in the ‘‘scary sci- ence fiction’’ section of your local Barnes and Noble bookstore alongside the X Files.
Penn-Lewis put forth the impossible premise that demons could sin through the believer, causing the be- liever to be confused and think they were sinning when they were not. She called it counterfeit sin:
‘‘Evil spirits can also counterfeit sin, by causing some apparent manifestation of the evil nature in the life, and matured believers should know whether such a manifestation really is sin from the old nature, or a manifestation from evil spirits. The purpose in the latter case is to get the believer to take what comes from them, as from himself, for what- ever is accepted from evil spirits gives them entry and power.

http://www.revival-library.org/pensketches/revivalists/robertse.html

Evan Roberts - 1878-1951

Evan Roberts
The story of Evan Roberts and the Welsh Revival of 1904-5 is the most thrilling, but also the most sad and sobering in all revival history. On the one hand we see one hundred thousand souls in Wales coming to Christ in just nine months, from November 1904 to August 1905. This was the beginning of a world-wide revival that ushered hundreds of thousands more into the Kingdom of God. On the other hand, we see Evan Roberts, the principle revivalist of this move of God, becoming deceived, deluded and finally suffering a nervous breakdown which took him out of the public limelight to live the life of a recluse. Furthermore, the fruits of the revival in Wales (but not world-wide) were soon lost through criticism, fears of deception and a Welsh theology which suppressed the assurance of salvation. Within a generation there were no signs that a revival had ever occurred. Surely there are some important lessons for 21st Century Christians to learn here?

Evan Roberts was born and raised in a Welsh Calvinist Methodist family in Loughor, on the Glamorgan and Carmarthenshire border. As a boy he was unusually serious and very diligent in his Christian life. He memorised verses of the Bible and was a daily attender of Moriah Chapel, a church about a mile from his home. Even at 13 years of age he began to develop a heart for a visitation from God. He later wrote "I said to myself: I will have the Spirit. And through all weathers and in spite of all difficulties I went to the meetings… for ten or eleven years I have prayed for revival. I could sit up all night to read or talk about revivals. It was the Spirit who moved me to think about revival.”

After working in the coal mines and then as a smithy, he entered a preparatory college at Newcastle Emlyn, as a candidate for the ministry. It was 1903 and he was 25 years old.

It was at this time that he sought the Lord for more of His Spirit. He believed that he would be baptised in the Holy Spirit and sometimes his bed shook as his prayers were answered. The Lord began to wake him at 1.00 am for divine fellowship, when he would pray for four hours, returning to bed at 5.00 am for another four hours sleep.

He visited a meeting where Seth Joshua was preaching and heard the evangelist pray "Lord, bend us”. The Holy Spirit said to Evan, "That’s what you need”. At the following meeting Evan experienced a powerful filling with the Holy Spirit. "I felt a living power pervading my bosom. It took my breath away and my legs trembled exceedingly. This living power became stronger and stronger as each one prayed, until I felt it would tear me apart. My whole bosom was a turmoil and if I had not prayed it would have burst…. I fell on my knees with my arms over the seat in front of me. My face was bathed in perspiration, and the tears flowed in streams. I cried out "Bend me, bend me!!” It was God’s commending love which bent me… what a wave of peace flooded my bosom…. I was filled with compassion for those who must bend at the judgement, and I wept. Following that, the salvation of the human soul was solemnly impressed on me. I felt ablaze with the desire to go through the length and breadth of Wales to tell of the saviour”.

Needless to say, his studies began to take second place! He began praying for a hundred thousand souls and had two visions which encouraged him to believe it would happen. He saw a lighted candle and behind it the rising sun. He felt the interpretation was that the present blessings were only as a lighted candle compared with the blazing glory of the sun. Later all Wales would be flooded with revival glory.

The other vision occurred when Evan saw his close friend Sydney Evans staring at the moon. Evan asked what he was looking at and, to his great surprise, he saw it too! It was an arm that seemed to be outstretched from the moon down to Wales. He was in no doubt that revival was on its way.

He then felt led to return to his home town and conduct meetings with the young people of Loughor. With permission from the minister, he began the meetings, encouraging prayer for the outpouring of the Spirit on Moriah. The meetings slowly increased in numbers and powerful waves of intercession swept over those gathered.

During those meetings the Holy Spirit gave Evan four requirements that were later to be used throughout the coming revival:

1. Confession of all known sin
2. Repentance and restitution
3. Obedience and surrender to the Holy Spirit
4. Public confession of Christ

The Spirit began to be outpoured. There was weeping, shouting, crying out, joy and brokeness. Some would shout out, "No more, Lord Jesus, or I’ll die”. This was the beginning of the Welsh Revival.

The meetings then moved to wherever Evan felt led to go. Those travelling with him were predominately female and the young girls would often begin meetings with intense intercession, urging surrender to God and by giving testimony. Evan would often be seen on his knees pleading for God’s mercy, with tears. The crowds would come and be moved upon by wave after wave of the Spirit’s presence. Spontaneous prayer, confession, testimony and song erupted in all the meetings. Evan, or his helpers , would approach those in spiritual distress and urge them to surrender to Christ. No musical instruments were played and, often, there would be no preaching. Yet the crowds continued to come and thousands professed conversion.

The meetings often went on until the early hours of the morning. Evan and his team would go home, sleep for 2”“3 hours and be back at the pit-head by 5 am, urging the miners coming off night duty to come to chapel meetings.

The revival spread like wildfire all over Wales. Other leaders also experienced the presence of God. Hundreds of overseas visitors flocked to Wales to witness the revival and many took revival fire back to their own land. But the intense presence began to take its toll on Evan. He became nervous and would sometimes be abrupt or rude to people in public meetings. He openly rebuked leaders and congregations alike.

Though he was clearly exercising spiritual gifts and was sensitive to the Holy Spirit , he became unsure of the "voices” he was hearing. The he broke down and withdrew from public meetings. Accusation and criticism followed and further physical and emotional breakdown ensued.

Understandably, converts were confused. Was this God? Was Evan Roberts God’s man or was he satanically motivated? He fell into a deep depression and in the spring of 1906 he was invited to convalesce at Jessie Penn-Lewis’ home at Woodlands in Leicester.

It is claimed that Mrs Penn Lewis used Evan’s name to propagate her own ministry and message. She supposedly convinced him he was deceived by evil spirits and, over the next few years co-authorised with Evan "War on the Saints”, which was published in 1913. This book clearly delineates the confusion she had drawn Evan into. It left its readers totally wary of any spiritual phenomena of any kind or degree. Rather than giving clear guidelines regarding discerning satanic powers, it brought into question anything that may be considered, or that might be described, as Holy Spirit activity. Within a year of its publication, Evan Roberts denounced it, telling friends that it had been a failed weapon which had confused and divided the Lord’s people.

Evan stayed at the Penn-Lewis’ home for eight years, giving himself to intercession and private group counselling. Around 1920 Evan moved to Brighton and lived alone until he returned to his beloved Wales, when his father fell ill in 1926. He began to visit Wales again and eventually moved there in 1928 when his father died.

Nothing much is known of the years that followed. Evan finally died at the age of 72 and was buried behind Moriah Chapel on Jan 29th 1951.

May his life be both an example and a warning to all those who participate in revival to maintain humility; keep submissive to the Spirit; be accountable to godly men and women; remain true to their calling; use the gifts God has given, but be wise in the stewardship of their body.

Bibliography An Instrument of Revival, Brynmor Pierce-Jones 1995, published by Bridge Publishing (ISBN 0-88270-667-5).

Tony Cauchi
November 2007

Hi bros and sisters,
I had also read that after the great Welsh revival Evan Roberts disappeared from the scene. That might not be unusual, like Duncan Campbell always said, he was not responsible for the Hebrides revival, God was. But Duncan kept preaching and giving testimony of the Holy Spirit moving in men's hearts back then.

I remember being surprised to see that Evan Roberts passed on in 1951.
And I read different accounts about Evan Roberts and Mrs. Jesse Penn-Lewis including the one Rev-Enu copied.

Over the last 40 years I've read and tossed away many a book. There are books that are beneficial and books that are bunk in Christendom.

I was saved in the mid-70's like many of you here. Was gloriously saved by grace through Jesus Christ. I was changed, born anew and repented of sins and have walked with our Lord ever since, but I can't say I did not fall for some false teachings after being saved. God in his mercy would always take me back to the Word of God in the Bible and make the crooked paths straight.

In the mid 80's my husband and I went to a ministry school that was birthed during the shepherding movement, and deliverance ministry was emphasized as well as moving in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Although all these things in themselves are good,sometimes the teaching of them can get skewed because we have a very crafty enemy who wants us to get our eyes off the goal.

I came across the Penn-Lewis books years ago and every time I tried to read them it was like gobblety gook. So I never read them. And I am glad. I did read other books, but to be honest with you, I've forgotten most of them and the clarity and completeness of the Bible always speaks to everything. What Jesus and Paul taught us about spiritual warfare is plenty. Books like Penn-Lewis' seem always to give extracurricular time to Satan.

This is my opinion. I pray we would all be as gentle as lambs and as wise as serpents. ( Matt. 10:16)
Sis L

Chapter 4 was and is and continues to be a very enlightening chapter.

I agree that the writing of the War on the Saints was inspired by God, but that does not mean that every single word that JP-L wrote was correct. She was not writing scripture.

It came at a time when there was much deception from the growth of the Pentecostal movement and the way that traditional holiness doctrine was being incorporated and misrepresented. One fact the Pentecostals dislike to hear is that holiness preachers separated themselves from Pentecostalism. They were not in agreement over very significant issues especially what Baptism of the Spirit was about.

For holiness preachers, it was about the work of God in our lives to make us holy as He is holy. Pentecostals said it was about power and gifts and left the crucifixion of ourselves out of it. JP-L emphasised this crucifixion in all of her writings.

At Keswick, the earlier teachers also preached holiness but later, it declined.

I believe that the following quote which is an excerpt from the book is the main bone of contention for Pentecostals and in some editions it is left out. It speaks of the false baptism of the Spirit that was becoming wide spread and today is almost the only one known about.

"A book by Pastor Ernst Lohmann published in Germany and printed in the OVERCOMER of 1910:

"They (heathen systems such as theosophy, new Buddhism, and spiritism) also produce revatations and prophesies, speaking and singing with tongues, healing and miracles..It is of importance that we should study this subject to find an answer to to the question as to how these phenomena are brought about.

The numerous and exact investigations which are being made in our day into the subject are giving increasing insight into this dark realm. Powers and possibilities have been discovered in man which until now have been totally unsuspected.

They are designated "subliminal powers" and we speak of "subconsciousness". What physical occurances accompany these phenomena?

The lower-nerve centres (the ganglionic system or the vegetative nerves as they are called) which have their chief seat in the region around the pit of the stomach, are excited to increase activity.At the same time , the central region of the higher nervous system (the cerebral system) which in the normal state of affairs is the medium of the conscious perception and action becomes paralysed.
There is a reversal of the order of nature. The lower nerves take over the duty of the higher ones (a sort of compensation).

This state of things comes to pass negatively by the higher organ, loosing its natural supremacy under pressure of illness or artificially by hypnotism, auto suggestion etc and possitively by the lower nerves being in some way excited ARTIFICIALLY to increase activity, whereby they get the upper hand.

These nerves then display abilities which our ordinary organs do not posseee, they receive impressions from the realm usually closed to us, such as clairvoyance,prophesy and speaking in tongues.

When in this state of somnambulism, the inner sense heightened by its activity perceives outward things as clearly and more so than when awake, and this takes place according to the unanimous declaration of all somnambulists through the pit of the stomach ie through the nerves which have their seat in this region....And it is from this part that the nerves are set in action which move the organs of speech (in the speaking of tongues)

Those in whom the sub-consciousness becomes active in this manner described above feel as it were an ELECTRIC STREAM passing through the body which is an exciting of the nerves which have their central seat at the pit of the stomach. It is from thence that the jaws are moved in the speaking in tongues.

One of the leaders of the Pentecostal Movement in describing the so called Baptism of the Spirit in his body made use of the singular comparison that it seemed to him as though there were in his body an inverted bottle. This simile was incomprehensible to me until I heard an almost identical one from a Mohammedan sooth sayer, Tewekkul Beg, describing how he would get into AN ECSTATIC STATE.

He says "After my eyes were bound, Isaw something in my inner being resembling a fallen tumbler......When this object was placed upright, a feeling of unlimitless bliss filled my being."

By exciting the lower nervous system, a feeling of intense rapture is regularly produced.

It is evident that in these phenomena we have the exact opposite of what the Scriptures understand by the communion of the Spirit. When the Spirit of God takes possession of the spirit of man HE IS BROUGHT BACK TO A NORMAL CONDITION. The spirit acquires the full authority given to it by the Creator over the powers of the soul and through the soul, the body. The concious persona; life is once more completely under authority of the spirit".

Leslie said:

"I came across the Penn-Lewis books years ago and every time I tried to read them it was like gobblety gook. So I never read them. And I am glad. I did read other books, but to be honest with you, I've forgotten most of them and the clarity and completeness of the Bible always speaks to everything. What Jesus and Paul taught us about spiritual warfare is plenty. Books like Penn-Lewis' seem always to give extracurricular time to Satan. "

She was instrumental in ruining the ministry and life of Evan Roberts.
That is the fruit of Penn-Lewis's false and satanic twisting of the scriptures in
the life of this godly man,

1 Thessalonians 5:19-23King James Version (KJV)

19 Quench not the Spirit.

20 Despise not prophesyings.

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev quoted:

"It is claimed that Mrs Penn Lewis used Evan’s name to propagate her own ministry and message. She supposedly convinced him he was deceived by evil spirits and, over the next few years co-authorised with Evan "War on the Saints”, which was published in 1913.

This book clearly delineates the confusion she had drawn Evan into. It left its readers totally wary of any spiritual phenomena of any kind or degree. Rather than giving clear guidelines regarding discerning satanic powers, it brought into question anything that may be considered, or that might be described, as Holy Spirit activity.

Within a year of its publication, Evan Roberts denounced it, telling friends that it had been a failed weapon which had confused and divided the Lord’s people."

Terrible what religious pride and self masking itself as "God" can do unless the Lord himself corrects us.
But this angel of light is still here, even in this place.

"This book .... Ieft its readers totally wary of any spiritual phenomena of any kind or degree. Rather than giving clear guidelines regarding discerning satanic powers, it brought into question anything that may be considered, or that might be described, as Holy Spirit activity."

To me it was the opposit. I came to Christ in a charismatic pentecostal church. Over the years I realized that many people lied to me who were supposedly under the instruction of the Holy Spirit. This confused me, because God can not lie. I came to a point in my life when I totally rejected everything that was said to be spiritual, and questioned all teachings about the Holy Spirit.
At that point I was sure that the Holy Spirit was not given to us for our enjoyment and satisfaction of our lust for power, but for our sanctification and to enable us to speak the gospel boldly. I was unsure how to handle all spiritual things. That's when I read this book. I have to admit that I retained very little at first, because my previous deception caused blindness. It however gave me light in my great confusion, namely, that we can test everything with the scriptures, and God would lead ud to the truth. Upon second and third reading, I discover more detailed and valuable message in this book about discerning spirits.

http://www.acts1711.com/wots.htm - page 27 (War on the Saints, pdf)

There is a fundamental principle involved in the freeing power of truth from the deceptions of the devil. Deliverance from believing lies must be by believing truth. Nothing can remove a lie but truth. "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8: 32), is applicable to every aspect of truth, as well as the special truth referred to by the Lord when He spoke the pregnant words.

In the very first stage of the Christian life the sinner must know the truth of the gospel, if he is to be saved. Christ is the Saviour, but He saves through, and not apart from instruments or means. If the believer needs freedom, he must ask the Son of God for it. How does the Son set free? By the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit does it by the instrumentality of truth; or we may say, in brief, freedom is the gift of the Son, by the Holy Spirit working through truth.

There are three stages of apprehending truth:
Perception of truth by the understanding.
Perception of truth for use, and personal application.
Perception of truth for teaching, and passing on to others.

Truth apparently not grasped may lie in the mind, and in the hour of need suddenly emerge into experience, and thus by experience become clear to the mind in which it has been lying dormant. It is only by continual application, and assimilation of truth in experience, that it becomes clarified in the mind in order to teach others.

The great need of all believers is that they should eagerly seek truth for their progressive liberation from all Satan's lies; for knowledge and truth alone can give victory over Satan as deceiver and liar. If the hearers of truth should resist it, or rebel against it, truth can well be left to the care of the Holy Spirit of Truth. Even in the case of resistance to truth it has at least reached the mind, and at any time may fructify into experience.

There are three attitudes of mind in regard to knowledge, i.e.,
Assumption of knowing a certain thing.
Neutrality toward it, i.e., "I do not know."
Certainty of real knowledge.

This is instanced in the life of Christ. Some said of Him, "He is a false prophet," with an assumption of knowledge; others said, "We do not know"- -taking a position of neutrality until they did know; but Peter said, "We know . . " and he had true knowledge.

THE SAFETY OF A NEUTRAL ATTITUDE TO ALL SUPERNATURAL MANIFESTATIONS

When believers first hear of the possibility of counterfeits of God, and Divine things, they almost
invariably ask, "How are we to know which is which?" It is enough, first of all, for them to know that such counterfeits are possible; and then, as they mature, or seek light from God, they learn to know for themselves, as no human being can explain to them.

But they cry, "We do not know, and how can we know?" They should remain neutral to all supernatural workings until they do know. There is among many a wrong anxiety to know, as if knowledge alone would save them. They think that they must be either for, or against certain things, which they cannot decide are either from God, or from the devil; and want to know infallibly which is which, that they may declare their position: but believers can take the attitude of "for" or "against" without knowing whether the things they are in doubt about are Divine or Satanic; and maintain the wisdom and safety of the neutral position to the things themselves, until, by a means which cannot be fully described, they know what they have wanted to understand.

One effect of over-eagerness in desiring knowledge, is a feverish anxiety, and a restless impatience,
worry and trouble, which causes a loss of moral poise and power. It is important in seeking one
"blessing" not to destroy another. In seeking knowledge of spiritual things let not the believer lose
patience, and calm quiet restfulness, and faith; let him watch himself, lest the enemy gain advantage, and rob him of moral power, whilst he is keen to get light and truth upon the way of victory over him.

Written by by G. Richard Fisher, pastor.

"From the perspective of Penn- Lewis, there was hardly a part of the body safe from pestiferous spirits. Likewise in her view, demons could jump into and/or onto almost any part of the body at any time and possess believers. No wonder most of the circulated editions of War on the Saints are abridged and cleaned up with the extreme nonsense edited out. The book belongs in the ‘‘scary sci- ence fiction’’ section of your local Barnes and Noble bookstore alongside the X Files.

Penn-Lewis put forth the impossible premise that demons could sin through the believer, causing the be- liever to be confused and think they were sinning when they were not. She called it counterfeit sin:
‘‘Evil spirits can also counterfeit sin, by causing some apparent manifestation of the evil nature in the life, and matured believers should know whether such a manifestation really is sin from the old nature, or a manifestation from evil spirits. The purpose in the latter case is to get the believer to take what comes from them, as from himself, for what- ever is accepted from evil spirits gives them entry and power."

No wonder poor Evan Roberts was stupefied and reduced to a recluse due to so much of her vain imaginations pretending to be the influence of the Holy Spirit

COUNTERFEIT SIN - pg 66 http://www.acts1711.com/wots.htm

Evil spirits can also counterfeit sin, by causing some apparent manifestation of the evil nature in the life, and matured believers should know whether such a manifestation really is sin from the old nature, or a manifestation from evil spirits. The purpose in the latter case is to get the believer to take what comes from them, as from himself, for whatever is accepted from evil spirits gives them entry and power. When a believer knows the Cross and his position of death to sin, and in will and practice rejects unflinchingly all known sin, and a "manifestation" of "sin" takes place, he should at once take a position of neutrality to it, until he knows the source, for if he calls it sin from himself when it is not, he believes a lie as much as in any other way; and if he "confesses" as a sin what did not come from himself, he brings the power of the enemy upon him, to drive him into the sin which he has "confessed" as his own. Many believers are thus held down by supposed "besetting sins" which they believe are theirs, and which no "confessing to God" removes, but from which they would find liberty if they attributed them to their right cause. There is no danger of "minimizing sin" in the recognition of these facts, because in either case, the believer desires to be rid of the sin or sins, or he would not trouble about them.

Here is a documentary about Evan Roberts and the revival:

https://archive.org/details/1904WelshRevival-EvanRoberts-BroughtByPeter-johnParisisFounderOf

I believe it is clear if you watch it that he did suffer some mental health difficulties when he was under severe strain even before the revival broke out. Sadly his failure to resist that strain on his physique and reign in his enthusiasm eventually was the ending of his ministry as a revivalist rather than the fault of the woman who took him in and cared for him for many years.

It is sad but is just one of the problems when the prescence of God is too much for a mortal being to bear if the person is perhaps young and inexperienced. It does not detract from the amazing events that followed him in his preaching.

I wonder if those who are casting doubts about the integrity of JP-L are going to give some reliable sources for the rumours and slander they are spreading and that they know they will to face God one day over it.

It was a fellowship of Christ’s sufferings in the one sense, that it lets one understand His agony as the sin-bearer. . . . This was the first deep knowledge of the Cross.[577]

Thus, the material for her books came from the spirit world, visions, dreams, voices, experiences with heavy breathing, groaning, parts of her body feeling corrupt and loathsome, and so on. Her teaching on "those deeper aspects of Romans 6 and Colossians 2”[578] were "revealed” to her in such a manner””rather than from the study of the Bible, which teaches, on the contrary, that while Christ endured the punishment of the sinful world in a vicarious way, sin being imputed to Him, He nevertheless was never personally sinful. Thus, by her visions and revelations, she gained that "deep knowledge of the Cross” which contradicts what Scripture teaches about the work of Christ on the cross. Writing to F. B. Meyer, she said, "I have been given by the Divine Spirit the interpretation of the Cross to the Christian.”[579] She "was specially chosen . . . and equipped with deep spiritual truths in these last days for the Church, truths that no one else held,”[580] since they are not in the Bible. Furthermore, the spirits that gave her revelations not only miraculously produced The Message of the Cross, "every bit of it,”

insane

she wrote, "I have never had to fight a battle of ‘surrender of will’ from that time,”[555] having entered by Spirit baptism into a realm of spiritual experience higher than any promised in the Bible or experienced by men like the Apostle Paul in their lifetime (Galatians 5:17; Romans 7:14-25).[556]

However, while her entry into the Higher Life came to her, she affirms, directly by a revelation and mystical experience””one of the vast numbers of supernatural revelations and visions she received[557]””she also had the help of "Madame Guyon,” who was most "influential”[558] upon Mrs. Penn-Lewis when introduced to her by "Mrs. Evan Hopkins”[559] as Jessie sought Spirit baptism and Higher Life sanctification in 1888.

Penn-Lewis did not compare Guyon’s writings with Scripture to see if they were trustworthy (Acts 17:11; 2 Peter 1:16-21), but adopted Guyon’s spirituality because "the Lord spoke” to her and told her that "this is the path.”[560

I remember the day someone handed to me, a small booklet by J P-L though l had never heard of her. The booklet contained some writings that had been printed in The Overcomer magazine from about 1915 and l can never forget the absolute wonder and amazement as the writer explained for me, the spiritual events that had been taking place within me, as God was opening up the deeper meaning of the crucified life.

I read and reread the words over and over, nearly weeping with joy as l finally understood what was taking place and that others had travelled that journey before me, and had come to the end of themselves and were being shown the road of revival.

That was about 25 years ago, and many writers have helped me since, like Oswald Chambers and Madam Guyon.

Flesh fights against Spirit and always has.

Amen, Brenda, I also remember the first day I read one of her pamphlets and realized this Sister really knew the Lord. I proceeded to find all the materials she ever published and the following is a portion of my library of Mrs. Penn-Lewis' books/pamphlets. She wrote much on suffering, the Cross, Spiritual Warfare and the Holy Spirit.

You may still be able to buy these somewhere. I purchased these in the 80's from the Overcomer Literature Trust in Dorset, England and highly recommend them.

The Awakening in Wales -
Jessie Penn-Lewis' clear, unvarnished record of the facts concerning the remarkable outpouring of God's Spirit in Wales at the time of 1903-1905 revival and the central place given to the cross of Christ in that Divine visitation. All who read these pages will experience a longing to see God work again in similar or greater ways and will find themselves praying with the Psalmist, "Wilt thou not revive us again?"

The Pathway to Life in God -
Aimed at presenting in some degree our death with Christ on the subjective side of the Holy Spirit's dealings with the individual. "There is no desire to dogmatize or systematise, but only to show in the main the experimental pathway. The Holy Spirit is not bound and leads along this road in a thousand different ways. The writer earnestly prays all to whom the booklet is not of present use, to put it aside until God in His own time and way becomes His own interpreter."

Union with Christ in Death and Resurrection -
Here Jessie Penn-Lewis deals with three aspects of the death of Christ which must be distinctly recognized:

1) The objective fact of our identification with Christ in His death;
2) The subjective or experimental outworking of the first;
3) The practical results when the life of Christ imparted to us on the basis of our death union with Him is brought into full maturity in us.

Dying to Live -
Four short chapters of contrasting style dealing with the relationship of Christ's death to the life of the Christian believer. The Christian who affirms "I have been crucified with Christ" has found the way that brings:

Freedom from sin and self
Transformation to His life, both internally and externally
Total surrender to God
Identification with Christ's death on the cross.

This book speaks to the individual in a personal way of the ongoing implications of Christ's cross for the Christian and declares (Chap. 4), "It is God's plan that He must be allowed to work in the lives of His messengers the truth He entrusts them to give to others."

The Cross of Calvary -
In a personal letter to Jessie Penn-Lewis, Oswald Chambers wrote, "The breakdown of natural virtues seems to be the point at which most regenerated lives are cast into despair. Your book will help those to understand that this despair must end in death to natural goodness and self, and be raised by the power of God into inconceivably glorious power and peace and liberty and life." The Cross of Calvary has brought real blessing to Christians all over the world. It has been described as a classic work of its kind on the Atonement.

The Conquest of Canaan -
The addresses on the Book of Joshua given in the following pages were delivered at Meetings for Christian Workers during the early months of 1911. They were delivered extempore and with no further preparation than an outline of texts. My purpose was only to give a bird's eye view of the battlefield of conflict, as depicted in the story of Israel's war in Canaan, and as each address was delivered at intervals of a month -- the matter is not as consecutive in style and condensed in Bible exegesis, as it would have been if prepared directly for print. Nevertheless, as the addresses contain light on warfare with the powers of darkness, which may be of service to the Lord's people at this time, I send forth with all their imperfections upon them, looking to the Spirit of God to give truth to those who need it.

The Cross - The Touchstone of Faith
Faith must obviously have something solid to rest on, and God in His mercy has provided for this need. He gave His Son to die on the Cross, and then raised Him from the dead so that as well as giving us life through Him, and countless blessings, our weaknesses and divisions from other believers might be healed. Only in this way can the vital work of bringing others out of darkness into light be accomplished, and Satan have taken from him the means of hindering the unity, and effective witness of Christians in the world.

Fruitful Living -
Only through testings can we enter into deep and full life in God. We can only know our God and His abundant grace as He brings us through circumstances that are a "good deal beyond the possible point."

The Work of the Holy Spirit -
In this short book, Jessie Penn-Lewis outlines the ministry of the Holy Spirit to us as comforter, teacher and witness to Christ. The outcome of the life in the Spirit is examined, and the purpose of God in sending the Holy Spirit is explored. Mrs. Penn-Lewis writes, "I do not want to meet your intellects, nor your feelings, nor your views. I desire to disentangle you from all these and just say to you, "Do you know the Holy Spirit? And by the Holy Spirit, do you know the Lord Jesus Christ, and do you know the Father? Do you know God?"

Life in the Spirit -
To quote Jessie Penn-Lewis, "Christians do not understand "spiritual conflict" in the Lord's service, because they do not know how to live in the Spirit."

This book seeks to give the reader an understanding of what it means to live in the Spirit and in doing so expresses some of the methods of the enemy of our souls.

Climax of the Risen Life -
"Through this blessed work of the Spirit in the Body of Christ, in a progressive unveiling of the meaning of the finished work of the Saviour, the living members of the Lord's Body have been steadily advancing in the divine life, and life-power has been radiating forth to the whole Church of Christ."

Jessie Penn-Lewis gives clear and valuable instruction on the various aspects of the believer's identification with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. All Christians who cry with the Apostle Paul, "That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection...being made comformable unto His death," will find help from a careful consideration of these pages.

Thy Hidden Ones -
One of the few books available which is based on the SONG OF SONGS. "This is the very last portion of scripture I would have chosen to write on", Jessie Penn-Lewis admits.

Forced by ill-health to rest from her exhausting preaching ministry, the author was invited by friends to recuperate abroad. She had not been away many days "before the Lord began to open up to me the SONG OF SONGS, as I had never seen it before, and for a month I wrote in the light of His face and in indescribable peace, the message that flooded my soul with joy...I have not attempted a full exposition of the text, but have rather confined myself to tracing the inner heart-history of the soul, brought into experimental union with Christ...I can only ask my readers to put the book aside if it contains no personal message to themselves, and to seek direct from God, that union with the Well-Beloved which it describes."

Face to Face -
Glimpes into the Inner Life of Moses, the Man of God

There is a face-to-face fellowship with God where we "inquire of the Lord" as David did, and get our answer; where we have such communion with Him that He is able to reveal His mind to us, and where we intelligently know and enter into the purposes of our God.

Opened Heavens -
These chapters are notes of addresses given at Quiet Days for Christian Workers held at Fieldhome, Peekskill-on-the-Hudson, New York, U.S.A., in the autumn of 1900.
1. Opened Heavens
2. The Vision of God and Self-Abhorrence
3. The Vision of God and Judgment
4. The Cross and Deliverance
5. The New Life Unveiled
6. The Heavenly Life in an Earthen Vessel
7. The Living One

Prayer and Evangelism -
God wants intercessors. The greatest blessing God could give His church today would be a few souls who pray as Elijah prayed; a few intercessors who know His will, and seek and pray for nothing else. May God raise them up. "Most Christians would concur with this conviction of Jessie Penn-Lewis as expressed in these chapters. A careful meditation of these pages will act as a powerful stimulus in turning this conviction into personal experience. Those who, at some stage in their Christian lives, have cried as the disciples of old, "Lord teach us to pray," will find valuable help from the lessons highlighted here.

The Story of Job -
A Glimpse in the Mystery of Suffering
"The book of Job has been a treasure-store to me ever since I went through it with my Bible class in 1895, but the deeper lessons of the seven years' interval have been necessary before I could be entrusted by the Lord with the privilege of drawing forth from it, in even a small measure, the message it specially contains for the people of God in these latter days. As we look out upon the world we see the true gold of God's elect in the furnace of trial on every hand. If not trials of "mockings and scourgings...of bonds and imprisonments" yet are they individually in some furnace "made exceeding hot", and many, it may be, in some measure after the Lord's dealing with Job.

This message on the Story of Job I send forth in the Master's Name to all the children of God who are walking with Him in integrity of heart, and loyal obedience to His known will, and yet are placed by Him in such a fiery trial that they are oft-times perplexed and dismayed.

May the Eternal Spirit graciously use this message to give light upon the ways of God, and to minister to them the comfort of God while in the crucible.

As regards the scope of the Book some little explanation is necessary:

I have not attempted a minute exegesis of the text of Scripture. Others with far more resources in scholarship and time have been given this service. But, I have sought rather to give a rapid outline of the Story of Job from the experimental standpoint and in narrative form, so as to present it in simplicity to the hears of those for whom it may have been sent of God, adding in an appendix brief extracts from the writings of others which seem to be appropriate.

I have also avoided all reference to controversial questions, scholastic and spiritual, so that the Word of God might convey its own message as the Divine Spirit may be pleased to apply it to the needs of the children of God.

In conclusion, I earnestly ask all who read this little volume to take for themselves only the portion that commends itself to them as from the Spirit of God for their own heart's need, and to leave the remainder for His used to those souls for whom it may have been given.

From Julius: This is my personal favorite treastise on the life of Job, as it has brought much light to me on trials and tribulations and afflictions that my family and I have gone through and still going through.

Rev Quoted:

she wrote, "I have never had to fight a battle of ‘surrender of will’ from that time,”[555] having entered by Spirit baptism into a realm of spiritual experience higher than any promised in the Bible or experienced by men like the Apostle Paul in their lifetime (Galatians 5:17; Romans 7:14-25).[556]

The real war on the saints is waged by the authors of such
satanic drivel like the book by Penn-Lewis. (On first glance it appears somewhat believable but upon closer inspection it is revealed as doctrines of demons camouflaged in christian sounding verbage) Imagine, she imagined herself was closer to God than Paul and the apostles were. And considered her confused ramblings on par with the Word of the Lord.

She said:

Penn-Lewis learned from Guyon the alleged truth of Quietism, "an effortless spiritual life” that is "stripped of [even the] vestiges of self”[562] by passing beyond "effort or feeling or even faith”[563] to mystical union with the Divine, "the Christ-life,”[564] where "your own personality as a separate identity [is] merged in Him,”[565] and "God is””we are not.”

John Lennon circa 1968 would have loved her philosophy.

"I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together."

The mis-information came from the same source.

Julius, l have collected most of the writings by Jessie Penn-Lewis that you mentioned. The one l spoke of was the Pathway to Life in God but l think l lost that one.

I also liked her study on Job and used it when l wrote an essay on the suffering of the godly for a theology course l was doing much later, being my favourite book of the Bible apart from Romans. I gained a great deal of insight also regarding the suffering l had been going through for many years, but later found myself with further insights than those in the book.

Her writings have been of great benefit to me in my earlier years when l first began to understand what holiness means.

Rev Quoted:

Penn-Lewis learned from Guyon the alleged truth of Quietism, "an effortless spiritual life” that is "stripped of [even the] vestiges of self”[562] by passing beyond "effort or feeling or even faith”[563] to mystical union with the Divine, "the Christ-life,”[564] where "your own personality as a separate identity [is] merged in Him,”[565] and "God is””we are not.”

What irony Rev, a book called the war on the saints was in fact itself a war on the saints.

Rev Quoted:

Penn-Lewis learned from Guyon the alleged truth of Quietism, "an effortless spiritual life” that is "stripped of [even the] vestiges of self”[562] by passing beyond "effort or feeling or even faith”[563] to mystical union with the Divine, "the Christ-life,”[564] where "your own personality as a separate identity [is] merged in Him,”[565] and "God is””we are not.”

What irony Rev, a book called the war on the saints was in fact itself a war on the saints.

We have seen many anti-mystical writings and even the term "mystic" has been abused by some modern writers considering it something wrong to have an "experience" with the Lord. Such opponents in the past were those of the thinking class who wrote great doctrinal books and used great erudition in writing about God but in the end some of these men never met or really knew the Lord. Hence their persecuting those who did was evident.

Watchman Nee, John Wesley, Count Zinzendorf and countless others have been blessed and encouraged by the writings of Madame Guyon, wesley even printing and translated some of her books from French for the methodist movement. We have and do continue to promote teachings of experiencing the Lord because those who meet with the Lord will become more like Him in holiness.

Even Evan Roberts himself apart from any influence of men, had times where he met with the Lord and was awoken in his sleep and had very powerful encounters with the Lord for many hours where He would learn the ways of God.

Of course the prophets in the Bible and apostles also at times have had these meetings with God.

So the question comes to us, have we met with God or sought God in this way or are we just content with studying the Bible but never expecting to meet with God? So many of us can be so busy in our minds telling God this and that and really miss ever hearing from the Spirit of God. I personally have fallen into this state many times!

Well said, Greg.

I'm concerned about what I read and I'm trying to keep my comments very simple and not to cause more confusion.

Greg wrote:, "So the question comes to us, have we met with God or sought God in this way or are we just content with studying the Bible ?"
As true believers we want to meet with God, to slip away and seek Him. Probably most of us here could share testimonies how the Lord became real in their lives etc.
But what does it mean "in this way "? That's where we need to be careful, where we could have long discussions.

When I read the passages that Rev and others have already quoted then I see many red flags.
Quote:"an effortless spiritual life” that is "stripped of [even the] vestiges of self”[562] by passing beyond "effort or feeling or even faith”[563] to mystical union with the Divine,"
There are many things wrong here, to keep it simple I only make one comment: by passing beyond...faith
The Bible says in Hebrews 11, "without faith it is impossible to please God" and we read "By faith Abraham ..."

Quote: "having entered by Spirit baptism into a realm of spiritual experience higher than any promised in the Bible or experienced by men like the Apostle Paul in their lifetime..."
You can't measure a spiritual experience and say which one is higher.!
Paul wasn't boasting about spiritual experience.
He wrote "Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ (Philippians 3v8)
He wanted to gain Christ and not an experience.

"Though I am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to illuminate for everyone the stewardship of this mystery, which for ages past was hidden in God, who created all things.…(Ephesians 3:8)

May the Lord give all of us wisdom and discernment ! Blessings

Markus,

I have always found it wise to read these things for myself and let the Lord show me the truth. I recommend that you read her books if they interest you and come to your own conclusions.

Dear saints,
When I started this thread I hoped to discuss a book and the thoughts in it. I started this because I have burning questions concerning us today that are rarely discussed. Just like in the early 1900s in Wales we are in the aftermath of a charismatic revival with all kinds of spiritual manifestations, and various new teachings especially about the Holy Spirit. Many are disillusioned and stopped to go to church because they realized that they were deceived, they heard a counterfeit gospel (of greed), and the signs and wonders that were expected wore off. After the spiritual abuse they went through (false prophcies, discipleship movement, etc) they don't want to do with anything spiritual. They threw out the baby with the bathtub. They were kept in a baby state by false teachers and can not differentiate between "good spiritual" and "bad spiritual". And there comes us on sermonindex, beating them up daily by calling them lukewarm and "dumb sheep" (?), and when it's time to show some discernment we can't show any, all I've seen people to do here for "discernment" is run to the internet and dig up dirt (real or not real) on the person, website etc. to show that they had an "agenda". I don't think this is what God had in mind for us as "discernment" (l think markuskiwi did well by watching for red flags, the only problem is that he did not look at the book itself not even at the book about the book, but at a book about other books). The idea of the book is that as we receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit we enter into the spirit realm, where we are inexperienced, but God will lead us. Our map in this new territory is the bible. Satan has a counterfeit for everything, but through the Holy Spirit we are capable to discern. It shows that even good sincere christians can be deceived. Only through deception can satan cause damage to us. (No christian in their right mind would do anything for the devil otherwise).
So some of those burning questions:
Why do we discuss deception but rarely, when so many warnings are in the bible against it?
What are the devices of satan against us?
Can an honest christian be deceived?
What do we have as a basis of our discernment?
What is the gift of discernment of spirits and why is it given to the church?
What is the baptism in the Holy Spirit? What is boldness.
Should we receive everything spiritual as coming from God?
Sould we reject all spiritual things because they can be counterfeited.
Can we grasp God through personal holiness or mysticism?
Are we ready to admit that we were deceived? (If we were)
Are we open to the truth and teachable?
etc.
This book makes us ask these questions, but nobody pays attention. They jump on the juicy topic of her relationship to him, or whether she likes Madame Gouyon or not.
We are all personally followers of Christ. When I recommend a book I do not want the reader to receive it without criticism and become the follower of the author. On the contrary: I would like the book to be READ and CRITICISED. Is it not our job to prove everything and keep what's good?
I understand that someone might be afraid to read a book that could potentially destroy his faith. But a mature Christian should have the strength, biblical basics, guidance of the Holy Spirit, common sense, discernment, curiosity, inspiration, prayerfulness, vigilance, experience to be open minded and at least start to read a book until his red flags (if any) abound.

Tozsu,

Please continue. There are plenty of people who have read JPL's works that can fellowship with you over them. Remember, her material exposes the powers of darkness.

Please ignore those that rely on others for their discernment and continue.

I would not even read their posts since they always rely on others and do not speak charitably.

We must take into consideration the purpose for which the book was written.

It was to warn people about the great deceptions that were coming into the church at a critical point of time and unfortunately, it did not stem the tide, although it did help many people.

JPL and ER were neither of them cessationists and believed in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the continuation of gifts. However, certain gifts and even the Baptism were being counterfeited and were not those to be found in scripture.

Those who receive the true baptism also receive discernment but unfortunately, today many people are not aware of there being a true baptism and a counterfeit. They accept everything from the spiritual realm as being from God.

There is no need for fear but a great need for understanding that there us a false baptism and it is not found in cessationist circles.

By all means read more, Lysa and would like to hear your comments, then.