Leviticus 19:29

Dad's Don't Prostitute Your Daughters by Jason Cooley;

http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=62514230423

Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness. Leviticus 19:29

This is a must hear for all husbands and fathers!

Men who love their wife and who love their daughters,please provide and protect them. Hear the plea from the Father which cries to this wilderness land of wickedness we call the land of the free and home of the brave. America!

I suppose, Savannah, you are preaching to the choir here, but do have a question.

We go to market several times a week - we are vendors there. My husband complains about every time about the undress that characterizes many customers. This undress invites further inspection and fondling. My husband does not think it would be proper for him to confront them so what would people suggest a woman do? This is my question...we have been toying with this distressing situation for some time.

Sandra

Sandra,

To answer your question about undress;

I write this with great heaviness in my heart. I'd like to believe that the Gospel sets free from worldly thinking and undress. I really and truly believe that it does. But from much of what I see and hear from those who name the Name of Christ, I can't help but wonder sometimes.

The world's ways of thinking and dressing have become so much a part of many a one who names the Name of Christ, it's so wearisome to have to say over and over that His Holiness demands that we live and think purely by His all-sufficient Word.

To do so will touch all aspects of this life. As we are to love our LORD with all our mind, heart, soul, strength.

Men who approve of the undress and are silent, do no good for their neighbor, no less love their neighbor.

Sorry to say, but I am not very optimistic about too many, even here on SI, saying Amen to this assessment. When men who are supposed to be mature in the faith can write such anti-biblical and worldly thought as the following, it is a sad commentary upon the indoctrination which has infiltrated the minds of the churched,

"Christian women living in the urban areas should pursue any education and desires that the Lord has given them and gifted them with. We don't just need godly influence from men in the business marketplace but also from Christian women."

"If a woman is not married, living in urban areas, she will need to develop skills and gain education to support herself and others until she meets her future husband if that ever happens. She may also need to take care of her mother and father but with what does she do this if her parents are not well off? There are just as many reasons that a woman should be able to support herself as there is for a man to be able to support himself."

The Word of God no longer speaks to these areas. Relativism has won the day.

The woman of the world wears her two piece bathing suit and the christian woman boasts of being modest as she puts on her one piece suit. Being persuaded that she is now seen as being dressed modestly by Biblical standards.

How far have we fallen! The half has not been told.

And it doesn't stop there. Questions such as the following are put forth, as if there is a number that can be given. And if no number may be shown, then according to the questioner they've proved their point and have become wise in their own eyes.

At what age is a woman no longer under her parents tutelage/authority and able to follow what she believes is the Lord's will for her life?

May God help us!

Again, I know that this will be dismissed by some as of no consequence, and yet for others it will be a hill to die on, as they are of the mind that the new woman must emerge and be emancipated.

So be it. God is judge over all, and He shall reign in righteousness. For "Your statutes, LORD, stand firm; holiness adorns your house for endless days." Psalm 93:5

Much time and effort would be saved if only these 2 verses were taken to heart and applied to the foregoing thoughts.

We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge
of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ. 2 Cor 10:5

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

New Living Translation
Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.

English Standard Version
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

But rather than turn upward, many turn inward.

Sandra, as all would agree, the living Christ, living in a man or woman will make them a holy people.

The transforming power of the Gospel of Christ must be proclaimed.

But, bear in mind, that even Noah, that preacher of righteousness, saw no change, but rather a flood which took them all away.

Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a desire fulfilled is a tree of life. Proverbs 13:12

It doesn't bother me [much] when I see other women walking about unclad but when I gather with supposed believers, mothers and daughters, and they are half-dressed, complete with husbands and fathers present, I'm mystified!

Miss Sandra, I wouldn't address the topic with an anyone unless specifically moved by the Spirit. If there's one truly seeking the Truth, the Lord may bring her across your path and help you develop a relationship with her. Your modest and tasteful dressing alone is a testimony/witness. Do not underestimate it.

In our congregation, summer = short apparel, sometimes, very short. I've simply decided to be a witness by my dressing. Making friends with some younger women.

An older beloved sister has been on this subject with a younger sister for some years now. I have watched with fascination, the evolution of their conversations. My younger friend simply won't budge but claims the Lord sees her heart and that's all that matters.

While we're on the subject, I'm yet to meet a skimpily-clad Muslim woman.

Yes, they are lost.
Yes, they need to be saved.

But how is it that 'saved' women can go about half-dressed??!

"...the Lord sees her heart and that's all that matters."

That phrase is a favorite of many!

Would anyone care to expound?

True Story

Once upon a time a man was walking along to church and came by a young lady sitting on a bench. He said hello and she said hello and they chatted just a bit very briefly. The man got up his courage somewhat and asked the lady if she might want to walk on along with him and go to church with him. She said well yes and they went to church together. So they are in the service and the preacher notices the young lady has on somewhat of a short skirt. So he changes his sermon a bit and begans to preach against short dresses and rails a bit and it's obvious to all who the preacher is directing his remarks toward. The young lady left the church embarrased and hurt and didn't want to come back and no one knows if she ever chose to come to church again? What is that type of behavior from the preacher all about?

"What is that type of behavior from the preacher all about?"

You asked the question, you must know the answer!

Why don't you tell us docs.

True story.

Superficial judgment is wrong. Passing judgment on someone based solely on appearances is sinful (John 7:24). It is foolish to jump to conclusions before investigating the facts (Proverbs 18:13). Simon the Pharisee passed judgment on a woman based on her appearance and reputation, but he could not see that the woman had been forgiven; Simon thus drew Jesus’ rebuke for his unrighteous judgment (Luke 7:36”“50).

From gotquestions...

He mentions the modern dating principle and there's likely more to his comments than one would think. Going to the Father as the head of the household and perhaps becoming part of a courting system may not be western but it is more biblical it seems and has strong points. I don't know all the ins and outs of this courting under the Father's watchful eye and tutelage but it does have merit in my opinion.

Food for thought.

Once upon a time
In a church far away
There sat six young women
In the pew one Sunday

They whispered to each other
As the preacher preached away
And after it was over
They all went their merry way

The next Sunday they returned
And did a repeat of the last
They boasted to some others
How at church they had a blast

Now every Sunday morning
With many many friends
They make it a tradition
To go with all the trends

Their fashion and their pomp
Is quite a sight to see
It spread to all the women
The church has been set free

The preacher had been silent
Not wanting to offend
Now if any one takes notice
Be sure you'll lose your friend

Once upon a time
It was understood
That preaching wasn't relative
But rather for our good

Now everyone agrees
It would not be polite
For the preacher to in-sin-u-ate
That some things just ain't right

And now the sign upon the church
Reads come just as you are
All are welcome in this place
We've even got a bar

Do not judge us any more
We all cast in our lot
If you do you have no love
A True Christian you are not

It is growing late you see
And when this first began
We couldn't see the consequence
That this would have on man

Let me live just as I please
And don't come to my church
We have freedom can't you see
Stop being such a Lurch

Everywhere in church-land now
It's a common sight to see
The women have no modesty
They're all dressed like Sandra Dee

So remember not to criticize
You might incur their wrath
Just shut your mouth and go sit down
And follow the new path

Good Sir,
Have you considered that it may have been the Holy Spirit who moved the preacher to speak to that young woman's immodesty?
Just because she was embarrassed and hurt does not mean those words didn't do her any good.
Just another perspective....

Savannah,
Excellent poem. I plan to read it to my family ASAP. Thanks for sharing. This has been my burden almost since the Lord saved me. I am wrestling with it in my heart and mind in the gathering this moment. I contemplated ceasing attending the little church I have been attending due to immodesty and worldliness in the preachers family and "serving" in front of all the assembly in clothes I wouldn't allow my (step)daughters to wear in front of me in the home. It is a cancer, "a little leaven..."

Blessings in Jesus' Name.

Women's dress is not the root of all evil, but immodesty seems to be a sin that is seldom addressed from the pulpit. It is shameful that in many churches the dress among professing Christians looks no different from the world, and it is a concern that one's husband and sons have difficulty worshiping God for the temptation to lust all around them. I have experienced, and so have others of my friends, that everything one tries to teach of modesty in the home is quickly undone because "other Christians are doing it." Immodesty is of course a symptom and not the root.

If I was part of a brick and mortar Sunday church and I was in the pulpit and my congregation had this modesty problem I would make it a public point to fall on my face before a holy God and ask His forgiveness for not shepherding my parents in the church so that they would teach their children well at home and I would ask Him before their faces to bring a sense of burden and burning hearts to correct our neglect. It would begin perhaps a bible study for the parents not on modesty but how to teach children and teens by diligence, patience and example. How to make the bible so dear to their homes that their children's rebellion could not be in ignorance. I would ask for a Holy Spirit outpouring of wisdom and diligence about the order of this world and how to live against it and why.

I would pray for the Spirit of wisdom to be made clear to the young ones so that as they work through the Word and their own lives they turn from worldliness to true humility and godliness. I would pray for young men and older ones alike to have their eyes anointed with salve so that while these young women were working out their salvation the men would look at them with no lust, no condeanation and not to hide lust behind judgment.

Amen, brother!
I understand that men who have a 'lust' problem will lust after a woman even if she's dressed in a gurney sack. But Christian men shouldn't have to come to church and avert their eyes from immodestly dressed women all around them. And it's downright terrible when said women are on stage, 'leading worship'....
It's just not right however you slice it.
I'm not suggesting frumpiness.
A woman ought to be feminine and comely in appearance.

May the Lord have mercy on us....

Savannah,

Listening to the sermon now. 35 minutes into it and it is a clear, biblical, sober, and even refreshing word (even if a bit hard or harsh at times). It is so blessed to hear the word of God preached with conviction and unafraid to make things black and white and deal in absolutes. It is so very encouraging to hear the clear will/word of the LORD and in such a way that makes standing on and walking in it very clear and simple (albeit if not "easy" but by the Spirit of Life).

Perhaps I'll weigh in later with my takeaway from the sermon if anyone would be interested.

Blessings.

You mentioned Noah, a man whom the scriptures identifies as a preacher of righteousness.

Did you ever wonder about the number of people that went into the ark with him? Only eight: his wife, three sons and their wives. That is all. Ever think about Noah's siblings, or his wifes', or his daughters-in-law siblings? or, their parents...where were they? They had family somewhere....makes me wonder about the dynamics of this family, the pressure they must have endured to persist in face of opposition. Knowing human nature my imagination teaches me that there is a lot more to this family's faithfulness then a casual reading of the WORD tells us. Then, I appreciate in a fresh way their testimony. Powerful lesson, here.

Sandra

QUOTE:
"To live the way proposed is only possible in like minded communities. Otherwise girls brought up that way will be bullied and scorned by the world."

This is true, but only if approval by your peers is important to you.On the other hand if you are more concerned about experiencing the approval by God, what others say will mean nothing. I have witnessed that. Let me share a few examples.

I have a friend, Karen Yoder, who earned a Ph.D. in nursing. She taught at Duke University and other universities, assisted a researcher in her work. She died this spring; she was 68 YO, never having married. But she was a very plain Mennonite woman, in fact if anything, she dressed quite drab, wore a large white head covering but she was esteemed by her peers and those she served. Highly thought of, well respected.

Many years ago we met a very plain Mennonite lady in Jackson, MS who was attending midwifery school. We saw her interact with the girls from the black community, many poor and...They loved her, crowded around her talking animatedly. She had a relationship with them and dress did not interfere.

Twenty-nine years ago I applied to a Crises Pregnancy Center to work as a volunteer. The director was unsure about allowing me to work there because I looked so different but he decided to give me a chance and seeing what happens. What happened was that God empowered me to work with Him - speaking to those things that needed to be said/done. It did not take long for the others to see how my 'differentness' in no way impended my ability to connect with my clients.

I had to deal with this issue on the personal level about looking different - I did not want to stick out like a sore thumb. No way. The Holy Spirit is so faithful...you see when He asks you to do something he will be right beside you enabling you to do his will. This is the key to faithfulness.

My testimony.

Sandra

by brenda7 on 2016/7/19 8:19:43

The reason why young women wear fashionable clothing, is not to 'advertise their wares' but to compete with other women because their self esteem is so low and all they think they have to offer is their 'sexiness'. What is needed is for them to have better self worth.

I'm afraid there are many things wrong with this statement, Brenda. Please allow me to give an overview of what I perceive is faulty with it:

A) Competing with other women (especially ungodly ones) is not what Jesus called us to nor is it indicative of the conduct of one who is walking in the Spirit.

B) Wearing (as you put it) "fashionable clothing"; clothing that reveals the body instead of conceals it; in order to "offer" "sexiness" (even if done in competition with others) is still *exactly* one "advertising their wares" [for the record: I do not recall the preacher calling their bodies "wares" in the sermon, that is your term Brenda].

They are (even if we accept your rationale) "advertising their wares" in mimicry of others doing the same.

C) Your assertion that it is low self esteem that is the cause and that "better self worth" is the solution is very dangerous and "new" thinking (in Christian thought, anyhow).

The word of God does not find our esteem of ourselves to generally be too low, nor does it encourage us to some higher sense of "self worth." I know phrases such as "knowing our identity in Christ" and the like are gaining popularity in "Christian" circles, but I find them to often be not in agreement with the gospel.

It is when we accurately esteem ourselves as (in ourselves) sinful rebels, defiled and dirty, Christ-hating, guilty and deserving of divine wrath - that we can truly believe Christ and (believing on Him) receive the Holy Spirit and live in and through Him, and thus have the experience of peace, joy and victory and not be a slave of sin (i.e: lewdness and worldliness).

So, in short: it is not a too low estimation/valuation of ourselves that causes us to sin, it is a lofty view of ourselves that is the culprit. Scripture bears witness to this truth.

The idea expressed is unrealistic in the extreme. To live the way proposed is only possible in like minded communities. Otherwise girls brought up that way will be bullied and scorned by the world.

Respectfully, Brenda, only unbelief would call what God commands in His word and assures He will accomplish in and through us by His Spirit, "unrealistic in the extreme." That is not the voice of Jesus which says such things.

The LORD God says to His people through Moses: "For I am the Lord who brings you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy." (Leviticus 11:45)

Jesus says: "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48)

Peter commands us: "...as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, 'Be holy, for I am holy.'" (1 Peter 1:14-16)

Jesus says: "All things are possible to those that believe." (Mark 9:23)

I could go on, but I think that should suffice. The word of God is always calling us to "unrealistic" and "extreme" living that we cannot do in ourselves. That is precisely why we need Jesus and His Holy Spirit. The word of God is clear that "the just shall live by faith" and reassured His servant(s) with the words "Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit!"

God did not create man to be his own source and supply for what He required of him. He did not create man to be sufficient in himself - man was to be what God intended him to be how God intended him to be it: by faith. Trust God and abide in His word and leave the rest to Him. Lean on Him as your source and strength. Look to Him (and be radiant, Psalm 34:5).

I am saddened to hear you have such little faith in Christ as to write off what God has required of us and Christ has provided for us at Calvary as: "unrealistic and extreme."

In "light" of ourselves they are - but not in light of Christ and the cross. He entered into our experience and died our death that we may die His death with Him and thus live His Life in and through Him by faith!

To live the way proposed is only possible in like minded communities. Otherwise girls brought up that way will be bullied and scorned by the world.

Again, this is not true and is apparently ignorant of Christ and His words to us..

Didn't Jesus say we would be hated and mocked and ridiculed for His Name's sake?

Doesn't the apostle Paul tell us we will suffer persecution (if we desire to live godly in Christ Jesus), and that "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God,"?

Can a person that is not willing to be identified with Christ and endure ridicule and strife for doing so, after He did just that for us, really be said to love Jesus? Didn't He Himself say that if one does not "deny himself" and "take up his cross" and follow Him that they "are not worthy" of Him?

It is also idealistic thinking that Christian men will not be exploiting their daughters and preventing them from finding God's will in their lives which might involve a career or missionary work.

I don't understand this, do you care to clarify?

How many men can afford to support adult daughters? Maybe sone in the US but not in other countries. In real life girls must support themselves and even financially support their families as in Africa. It the American dream that is rapidly disappearing as the nation's health goes down the plughole and cancer rates explore

I just must say that I disagree with this - especially if we have a heavenly/biblical perspective and are "content" with "food and clothing."

Just when I thought about attending the Church at the beach,we're everyone goes swimming after church. I guess I could pick me us a pair of blinders and a depth finder with braille, when I go swimming.

Mr. Bill,

Respectfully and sincerely, I'd request that you bow out of this thread if you do not have anything of any substantive value to add to the subject of this thread, which is of extreme seriousness, as it is an epidemic in this country.

Your joking about the sin of many, which is destroying many a home, and even the lives of both young and old, certainly doesn't help. It only adds to the problem, and shows how ignorance and apathy has won the day. Even in those men who ought to be mature in faith, and who ought to be sober minded.

Men ought to be so broken over such things as these, that they fall on their faces in humility and repentance. What example are mature men of God setting for the young. And how are men protecting those we love, our wives,daughters,mothers and every other female out there. Too many men have been so passive for too long, and that sly serpent has been speaking through so many mediums, and again he has deceived these female souls.

Please, do not encourage folly. Be a man and help the women be ladies. Do not treat this lightly. Look around at the results of treating this lightly.

OH God...help us!

A pure and holy bride is precious in your sight. If we men desire a pure and holy bride, how much the more do You our Holy God!

Be glorified oh God! Amen.

"...the most important issue for our kids us that we are living in complete and utter submission to Christ..."

Can you please explain what you mean by this? What does it look like? And does this require a "certain level of faith"?

"...and judging from the attitudes l have discerned from those who are espousing this way to run their families..."

Please do elaborate; (a) what attitudes and (b) what way to run their families?

Do you mean those who seek to "Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it"? (Jer. 6:16a)

"...they do not sound like they are in that state so they are expecting a level of commitment to Christ that they do not display.

Again, please elaborate (if you would): How do you know what "state" others in a discussion are in?

Are you criticizing those who adhere to a conservative interpretation of the scriptures and which they view as inspired and as timeless and as unchanging as God Himself; for nothing more that seek to live biblically and thus "walk" in the "ancient paths"?

Or as Peter put it:

"Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

For,
"ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS,
AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS.
THE GRASS WITHERS,
AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF,

BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER.”

And this is the word which was preached to you.
1 Peter 1:22-25

And what that has been said by said bible believing conservatives that leads you to believe that they don't display a certain level of commitment to Christ (said level being, in your words, "complete and utter submission")? What, say, in my comments leads you to believe I don't live "completely and utterly submitted to Christ" (assuming I am one of the people you are referring to)?

I assure you that my kids see a man who fears God and seeks to walk in holiness, humility and love. I fail, but my sincere heart cry is to live pleasing to Christ and they see this very practically fleshed out on a daily basis.

So if I don't agree with you I need to "bow out" this is really one of the greatest issues with a lot of Christians. Yes, if you don't agree with us, you're totally wrong, so go away, great Christian attitude!

OH God...help us!

A pure and holy bride is precious in your sight. If we men desire a pure and holy bride, how much the more do You our Holy God!

Be glorified oh God! Amen.

Amen!

So if I don't agree with you I need to "bow out"

Is that what Savannah said?

Forrests are you asking me that?

Tozsu....Is women's dress the root of all evil?

Forrests are you asking me that?

Yes, I am. Did Savannah say "You disagree with me, bow out of this thread"? Or did he say something else?

forrests...Yes, I am. Did Savannah say "You disagree with me, bow out of this thread"? Or did he say something else?

forrests, I'm not condoning or condemning clad ware on women or men, if you read my post, I said "if" we have scripture to back it up, I'm on-board.

"Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness". King James Bible

forrests, if you see a "cladly dressed" "scantily dressed" etc. woman, she's a whore or a prostitute? This is the topic correct? or if not I'm sorry, I guess I took the scripture that was taken completely out of context, as the topic.

Mr. Bill,

You said in part,

"So if I don't agree with you I need to "bow out"..."

Forrest replied,

"Did Savannah say "You disagree with me, bow out of this thread"? Or did he say something else?"

You replied,

"are you unable to read Savannah's post?"

Here's what I did say, the following was my reason for my request that you bow out,

"Respectfully and sincerely, I'd request that you bow out of this thread if you do not have anything of any substantive value to add to the subject of this thread, which is of extreme seriousness, as it is an epidemic in this country...Your joking about the sin of many, which is destroying many a home, and even the lives of both young and old, certainly doesn't help. It only adds to the problem..."

Others disagree, yet I say nothing of them bowing out. I'll gladly engage them as to what the LORD's mind is on whatever subject.

If you think that to lust in your heart for a woman is not a serious sin in the sight of God, or if you can go to the beach and have no problem with what the women are wearing, then I myself will bow out in regard to your posting on this thread.

But in no respect is this nor any other sin a subject of ridicule.

savannah....If you think that to lust in your heart for a woman is not a serious sin in the sight of God, or if you can go to the beach and have no problem with what the women are wearing, then I myself will bow out in regard to your posting on this thread.But in no respect is this nor any other sin a subject of ridicule.

The biggest problem with this whole thread was the fact, the scripture you used as the thread starter, was taken way out of context, as this happens a lot here and this is one of the reasons I don't post much anymore. This is a perfect thread, on how folks can use any scripture to fit their agenda. A person is never guilty of another person’s sin, regardless of how a man or a woman dresses. I have made my point and taken a little heat for my view, but don't miss my point here, point is it's just a dangerous to take scripture and twist it to fit our on agenda, that may even be a greater sin.

Please take note Mr. Bill...

I'm not a woman,nor have I ever been!

Don't know if you will read what I've written differently or not, but I did want to make that fact clear to you and all.

And you really didn't address what I wrote about the beach.

The beach itself is beautiful, my wife and I go to the ocean when we can. We go to a private beach.

No more comments, if I made a mistake I'm sorry. I've always heard, The first to apologize is always the bravest. The first to forgive is the strongest. The first to forget is the happiest. yaw have fun! :-)

by MrBillPro on 2016/7/20 10:04:52
A person is never guilty of another person’s sin, regardless of how a man or a woman dresses.

by Tozsu on 2016/7/20 8:48:59
I agree with this. While the OP sermon does not suggest that a person is guilty of another's sin I think some of the posts do.

"But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea."
~ The Lord Jesus; Mark 9:42

*****

"For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge,
And people should seek the law from his mouth;
For he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.
But you have departed from the way;
You have caused many to stumble at the law.
You have corrupted the covenant of Levi,”
Says the Lord of hosts.

"Therefore I also have made you contemptible and base
Before all the people,
Because you have not kept My ways
But have shown partiality in the law.”
~ The word of the LORD by the prophet Malachi, 2:7-9

******

"Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."
~ 1 Corinthians 3:16-17

****

"For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ."
~ 1 Corinthians 8:10-12

*****

"Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

"But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

"Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries. Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!” But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

"These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

"Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, 'Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.'

"These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit."

"But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

"And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh."
~ Jude 1:1-23

by: Tozsu on 2016/7/20 12:45:14
"...blaming others for our sin accomplishes nothing.

I don't believe anyone here is doing that. We were discussing sinful living and the justifying of ungodly dress and worldliness. I never blamed others for my sin.

The reason I posted the scriptures about causing others to stumble is to show that to do so is to commit sin against Christ. That isn't to say one is guilty for another's sin, but that to be the cause of another's sin can be considered your sin. Jesus says as much in the passage in Mark 9.

Tozsu said,

"While the OP sermon does not suggest that a person is guilty of another's sin I think some of the posts do."

So, just which posts do suggest this?

"Do not let your wife's sin be the excuse of your own." Matthew Henry

I'd add, do not let your husband's sin be the excuse of your own!

Neither the husband nor the wife have excuse!

The poem.

What specifically about it sounded like blaming others for one's own sin? Please be more specific, because I didn't get anything of that sort out of it.

It was more a warning on how carnality and worldliness in the church, if unchecked, can lead to an apostasy of humanism where man's (that is in the generic sense; man or woman) feelings and offenses take priority over the word of God and His "feelings" and offenses - where the flesh prevails and the Spirit is quenched for it's sake.

That's what I saw in it anyhow. It is a very real and very tragic reality in far too many churches today. We don't seem to be able to stomach the cross anymore, and the world and the cause of Christ suffers as a result.

by Tozsu on 2016/7/24 20:58:27

Carnality was pictured by carnality of women, while men and women are both to the same degree prone to carnality.

Edited for clarity: So it looked like not carnality but women cause the the church to fall in sin.

I disagree, I see far more than the women owning the blame in this poem. And the men are the leaders of the church, and as such own the greater responsibility and accountability to God (as in the case with Adam and Eve).

I will put the verses I see as not pertaining to women the "quoted text" format below and briefly share my thoughts on them as well:

Here is the Poem in it's entirety:

******************************
Once upon a time
In a church far away
There sat six young women
In the pew one Sunday

They whispered to each other
As the preacher preached away
And after it was over
They all went their merry way

The next Sunday they returned
And did a repeat of the last
They boasted to some others
How at church they had a blast

Now every Sunday morning
With many many friends
They make it a tradition
To go with all the trends

Their fashion and their pomp
Is quite a sight to see
It spread to all the women
The church has been set free

The preacher had been silent
Not wanting to offend
Now if any one takes notice
Be sure you'll lose your friend

Once upon a time
It was understood
That preaching wasn't relative
But rather for our good

Now everyone agrees
It would not be polite
For the preacher to in-sin-u-ate
That some things just ain't right

And now the sign upon the church
Reads come just as you are
All are welcome in this place
We've even got a bar

Do not judge us any more
We all cast in our lot
If you do you have no love
A True Christian you are not

It is growing late you see
And when this first began
We couldn't see the consequence
That this would have on man

Let me live just as I please
And don't come to my church
We have freedom can't you see
Stop being such a Lurch

Everywhere in church-land now
It's a common sight to see
The women have no modesty
They're all dressed like Sandra Dee

So remember not to criticize
You might incur their wrath
Just shut your mouth and go sit down
And follow the new path
************************************

Once upon a time
In a church far away
There sat six young women
In the pew one Sunday

They whispered to each other
As the preacher preached away
And after it was over
They all went their merry way

The next Sunday they returned
And did a repeat of the last
They boasted to some others
How at church they had a blast

If we understand "virgins" or "unmarried daughters" to be under the headship of their fathers (1 Cor. 7:36-38), there may likely be some fault in the fathers (or if married, the husbands) for this behavior going unchecked/uncorrected.

Also, it is the duty of the father/husband to promote spiritual sincerity and depth and to ever beware of religious superficiality in himself and his wife/family.

Therefore, if he had been diligently faithful to this duty - it is unlikely that the "young women" mentioned above would have gotten very far along in this spiritually dangerous practice.

In the event that they are young widows, the scripture plainly councils them to remarry to prevent this type of error (1 Tim 5:11-15).

I would have to say that in the event that they are "virgins" that have no Christian father/husband to be accountable to, then they would be under the guidance and of the married women and the pastors of the church - and if they are godly and reverent, they will recognize and honor such godly men and women and willfully arrange themselves under such in the Lord.

Now every Sunday morning
With many many friends
They make it a tradition
To go with all the trends

This problem goes unchecked so long that it becomes "tradition" and one would have to believe that by this point it is open and quite bold: worldliness, perhaps sensual dress, likely the minimizing/justifying of a clamorous and unsubmissive spirit, often self-glorying dress and demeanor, etc...

At this point, it becomes the fault of the men of the church in general; especially the elders. If the fathers and/or husbands (if applicable) have not yet addressed this in-road for the flesh/Satan into the assembly; then it is the duty of the watchmen (pastors, prophets, etc) to perceive the danger and sound the alarm. They are not to address the women personally at first (in the case that they are under the headship of a man in the church), but are to go to the brother who is their head and raise the concern first. Of course some time must be afforded for him to address the situation and grace is needed, but at this point the problem has become routine and open and is metastasizing and needs to be dealt with rather speedily.

Their fashion and their pomp
Is quite a sight to see
It spread to all the women
The church has been set free

At this point it is open sin and rebellion: "pomp" and "quite a sight to see" and the church (which by the blood of Christ was already "free") celibates some perverted and satanic form of liberty: "The church has been set free". It has also become a "stage 3" or even "stage 4" cancer as "it spread to all the women."

This can not be seen as merely the fault of women, it required the permissive silence of many men and elders in the church by this point and it signifies an even worse error in the men than the women: cowardice, which is likely caused by walking in the flesh (carnality) and likely hidden sin. This is a serious problem in the men of the church, and not the women only.

I personally fault the men much more than the women.

The preacher had been silent
Not wanting to offend

Here we see what I mentioned above: a cowardly spirit and a unfaithfulness to the Lord. And, none of us, in ourselves, are any different - therefore it is the duty of the elders and brothers to help each other and be our "brothers keeper". We must help each other keep ourselves in the love of God.

For the preacher to have gotten to this point there likely has been either a spirit of man-idolizing in the church which caused people to shy away from bringing questions or concerns to the "preacher"; or a spirit of stupor and pride which caused him to see the others as beneath him, un-discerning and thus did not take their admonitions to heart. This seems to often be a problem in unbiblically hierarchical churches where there is one pastor and the elders are a board under him.

Now if any one takes notice
Be sure you'll lose your friend

It is not entirely clear if the "your friend" in this part means the preacher (which agrees with the "spirit of stupor and pride" that I mentioned above) or the people in the assembly in general.

I took it as the assembly in general and if this is the sense, it reveals that the cancer is now near terminal. There is a prevailing ungodly and antichrist attitude in the body at large which "calls good, evil; and evil, good". One that scoffs at holiness and the fear of the LORD. One that calls worldliness and rebellion and sin "liberty" and refers to biblical exhortations to holiness, "legalism."

Once upon a time
It was understood
That preaching wasn't relative
But rather for our good

Now everyone agrees
It would not be polite
For the preacher to in-sin-u-ate
That some things just ain't right

At this point it has clearly become the prevailing attitude in the church: a man-centered agenda, one of humanism which "makes provision for the flesh in regards to it's lusts" (Romans 13:11-14). The church is more concerned with how a thing affects man and his feelings than how it affects The Almighty and Holy God.

The church has fallen from it's previous "steadfastness" (2 Peter 3:14-18).

And now the sign upon the church
Reads come just as you are
All are welcome in this place
We've even got a bar

The church is now thoroughly compromised and is celebrating sin and worldliness ("glorying in it's shame") and even seeking to promote the cause of Christ by advertising and promoting itself - using what it ought to be ashamed of. This is a reproach to a Holy God and Christ.

Do not judge us any more
We all cast in our lot
If you do you have no love
A True Christian you are not

Now the tyrannical fascism of Satan oppresses and marginalizes anyone who would dare speak out. The many are self-deluded and believe themselves to be walking in love and very "Christ-like", while it attacks and slanders those through whom the Holy Spirit is truly speaking to them. It, in a figurative sense, "kills the prophets and stones those sent to her".

It is growing late you see
And when this first began
We couldn't see the consequence
That this would have on man

The "man" referred to in this verse seems to me to be in the general/generic sense: "mankind" - and speaks of the negative affect spiritual apostasy has on the world. If the church is to be "the light of the world" and "the light that is in [it] be darkness", "how great is that darkness!"

It is trying to bring attention to the consequences of ignoring spiritual backsliding on the smallest and most embryonic level, for it has serious ramifications if left unchecked. It actually erodes ones senses and perception and resolve and courage to perceive danger and to wage war against it. It is blinding and numbing and infiltrates the heart and mind: deluding and deceiving, and puts our your eyes and enslaves you. (Judges 16)

Let me live just as I please
And don't come to my church
We have freedom can't you see
Stop being such a Lurch

Everywhere in church-land now
It's a common sight to see
The women have no modesty
They're all dressed like Sandra Dee

Here we see a Satanic "freedom" celebrated - that which the Lord Jesus calls "sin" and "slavery".

I can see how the return to the immodest dress of the women can seem to place all the blame on them, but I don't believe that is the intent. I believe the intent is to draw attention to one of the ways that Satan sparked this revolution and revolt and also one way to quickly and easily perceive the spiritual condition of a local body of believers: a lack of holiness. This is often most blatant and readily discerned in the immodest and sensual dress of the women (although it can also be seen it the men).

Another reason that the women are focused on here in the conclusion is because they were the focus and the catalyst in the beginning. It is showing how that what began as an un-checked pocket of rebellion and sin, eventually spread to the whole church and compromised and subverted the whole and is now the new "norm" and accepted on a universal level. This is key to understanding Satan's method of operation.

So remember not to criticize
You might incur their wrath
Just shut your mouth and go sit down
And follow the new path

This is a bitter ending which calls attention to the attitude of those who permit/promote such an ungodly spirit and which has the poem lamenting this situation as it sits down in sackcloth and ashes. I believe it poignantly conveys the sad state of defiance and hatred for the Spirit of Christ in so many professing believers and is somewhat comforting to those faithful sheep who have lovingly tried to warn the flock and have been met with very similar attitudes and accusations.

It is especially comforting to those who have had others in the church try at length to convince them that they "have a wrong spirit" and that they "are lacking love" for merely speaking the truth in love - and have had to wrestle with doubt and discouragement as a result.

There...Those are my [not so] brief thoughts on the poem. ;)

What are yours?

by Tozsu on 2016/7/25 10:42:27
However I could (if I wanted to) write a song that starts like this:
Ones upon a time there were some men who would rather watch the sports game and go to pubs than show up in church....
...and I could derive similar demise effect on the church with the same accuracy.

I totally agree, that is also a problem and it plays into the very same condition the poem laments.

For self critique I have to say this: There must be still an amount of pride in me that I took offense (I admit I did) by this poem. It wouldn't have hurt a humble person.

Brother, I say this without any knowledge of false-humility or lack of sincerity in myself: You are likely more humble than I am and your words and spirit seem to bear witness to this. Just the fact that you recognize and readily publicly confess your sin/wrongs, and have such a sincere and "teachable" spirit, demonstrates that you are in general likely in a sound and safe place spiritually.

Please be encouraged that I perceive a meek and humble spirit in you, as I'm sure do others. Praise be to Jesus your shepherd for keeping you by His power!

And thank you for receiving my many words and 'deeper analysis' of the poem while in love, and "believing all things" of me and my words.

I just finally had time to listen to this sermon. I apologize if I repeat things that have been said before because I do not have time to read all of the posts.

There are many things on which I agree with the sermon.

1. girls/women should be modestly dressed, and it is the job of the parents (and father) to teach them this

2. husbands and fathers are responsible for washing their daughters (and sons) in the word and therefore guiding them in the right path.

3. Girls are not equal to boys. They are differently made and their hearts need a different form of guidance and protection. Because their roles as adults will be different, that needs to be addressed as they grow up, but most of this can be handled easily if they are first taught to surrender to Christ.

4. Husbands/fathers ought to support their families so that the mom should be able to stay at home and take care of the home and the children.

However, there are things I did not agree with here. It does not seem to represent to me the Prov 31 woman.

I think this sermon is a push-back on the American way of raising children, and it sounds really alien to me. The thought of kicking my daughter out of the home when she turns 18, or even sending her off to college in a different city at that age, is a very American thing. I did not even do this with my sons. Most girls (and boys) are not really ready to face living alone at that age, to face all the onslaught of the world. Some may be, but I think that is the exception.

I do not see why a young woman should not receive a college education (provided she can do that while remaining at home) just because she is a woman and will most likely be only a homemaker. In my opinion, that is why she needs it- she will be the educator of her children and in this age where that most likely requires homeschooling, that education will not be wasted. (I am not saying she cannot educate them without a degree-many moms do so successfully- but this is very helpful.)

Also, what happens if something happens to her husband? She will have to support the family. The preacher in this sermon said he would support his daughter and her family in a case like that, but who guarantees he will be alive to do that? A college degree is today almost a requirement to get a job that can support a family; we do not want her working at a minimum wage job if that happens.

Whether a child should be attending college is something that should be submitted to prayer. Ask the Lord to decide whether each child (girl or boy) should go beyond high school. God always knows what is best.

I will add that I have prayed and thought a lot about this before I posted and asked God for clear guidance as to whether I should say anything. I also add that I may have a bias ( or different perspective?), since I am a widow with 6 children still at home, 4 of them girls. I am highly educated (I have a law degree, though not a law license at the moment), and I got all that education while my husband worked and supported me and the children. He encouraged me to study when I would have been happy to remain at home and just tend to my family. I am now tasked with taking care of the entire family and my training has served me well. There is no husband/father at home to take care of my daughters in the way that this preacher states, and my father is also gone and would not have been able to support me/us either even if he was. Who if not I will support my daughters until they are married or whatever God has for them?

I pray this does not start an argument. I understand the heart of the speaker and I can agree with his heart. Fathers need to step up and protect/teach their daughters and wives in all areas. Fortunately, I have a husband who did.

In Christ,

Natalie

Tozsu said,

"However I could (if I wanted to) write a song that starts like this:
Ones upon a time there were some men who would rather watch the sports game and go to pubs than show up in church....
...and I could derive similar demise effect on the church with the same accuracy."

After reading this, and thinking about the "demise effect on the church", I was inspired to write yet another poem. This one is as equally true and accurate as the first.

I hope no man may be offended by it.

Here it is:

Once upon a time
In a land far away
Fathers took their families
To church each Sunday

After it was over
No one chose to stay
They all hurried to their homes
So the children could go out and play

They played for many hours
They just couldn't get enough
They convinced all of their fathers
To get involved in all this stuff

The fathers came to like it
So much so that they made plans
To do it every Sunday
And some became their fans

So now each Sunday morning
The wives of all these men
Rise early to read their Bibles
While their husbands sleep til ten

The children no longer listen
Or do what they are told
And all the father cares about
Is who won the Superbowl

It started out so innocent
No one could really see
What playing and not praying
Would make a father be

It's become a favorite pastime
Never to miss a game
But missing church each Sunday
No longer is a shame

The children now are grown up
Each have their families
They teach them evolution
How they used to be monkeys

Now if any father stumbles
Into the church's doors
In one hand he'll have a Bible
In the other a can of Coors

This is all now relative
Politically correct
To see how this all happened
I invite you to reflect

You say you don't believe it
I thought I heard you say
If this next line won't do it
I'll send you on your way

The preacher just informed us all
There will be no church next week
He's going to the football game
To call a preacher sneek

No one need be worried
All will be okay
We all believe in Jesus
And God loves you anyway

Fantastic poem, sister! I agree this is a major problem as well. Oh God help us fear Him more than man and sound the alarm - warn the people when we see the sword coming!

by forrests on 2016/7/27 7:04:14

Fantastic poem, sister!

Sorry, I didn't immediately realize who wrote the poem. My apologies, brother. Still, a hearty "amen!" to this one too!

This is very true, just wanted to share it again for those who may have missed it.

by savannah on 2016/7/27

Once upon a time
In a land far away
Fathers took their families
To church each Sunday

After it was over
No one chose to stay
They all hurried to their homes
So the children could go out and play

They played for many hours
They just couldn't get enough
They convinced all of their fathers
To get involved in all this stuff

The fathers came to like it
So much so that they made plans
To do it every Sunday
And some became their fans

So now each Sunday morning
The wives of all these men
Rise early to read their Bibles
While their husbands sleep til ten

The children no longer listen
Or do what they are told
And all the father cares about
Is who won the Superbowl

It started out so innocent
No one could really see
What playing and not praying
Would make a father be

It's become a favorite pastime
Never to miss a game
But missing church each Sunday
No longer is a shame

The children now are grown up
Each have their families
They teach them evolution
How they used to be monkeys

Now if any father stumbles
Into the church's doors
In one hand he'll have a Bible
In the other a can of Coors

This is all now relative
Politically correct
To see how this all happened
I invite you to reflect

You say you don't believe it
I thought I heard you say
If this next line won't do it
I'll send you on your way

The preacher just informed us all
There will be no church next week
He's going to the football game
To call a preacher sneek

No one need be worried
All will be okay
We all believe in Jesus
And God loves you anyway