Does God still confirm the gospel by signs and wonders?

... For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we did not drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation. After it was first spoken through the Lord it was confirmed to us by those who heard. God also testified with them, both by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to his own will...Hebrews 2:1-4

Is God still confirming his gospel today by signs and wonders and various miracles and Gifts of the Holy Spirit? If not. Please give your reason from the scripture.

I have redone the thread title and the OP tell kess controversial.

The reason I'm opening up this thread is that I believe there is anti Holy Spirit bias in this forum. There are those people such as myself who believe the Holy Spirit does work in the same age as He did in Acts. I believe that I could readonably support this view from the scriptures.

However there are those who are raising concerns about deception and deceiving spirits. To see if we actually listen to the Holy Spirit. We are almost accused of listening to demonic voices.

Thus I am opening up this thread for a well-reasoned discussion. In other words let us talk about the doctrine of cessationism.

I do believe there are those in this forum who believe that the Holy Spirit does not work in the way he did work in Acts. Would you please come forward and state your case from the word of God?

I'm not trying to be contentious or provoke an argument. But I want us to lay our cards on the table. I do believe there are some of you who believe that people such as myself are being deceived. Then if you believe this please State your case from the word of God.

Some have suggested in this forum that I do not believe in the scriptures. Anyone who has seen my posts particukarly, my devotional thead regarding the persecuted will know that those posts are filled with scripture.

But let us say we agree on Sola Scriptura. That we believe that all doctrine must be established by scripture. I ask those of you who believe that the Holy Spirit does not confirm his gospel by signs and wonders. Will you please State your case from the word of God.

So come now let us reason together. Please state your case for cessationism.

Where are the multiple witnesses to that scripture? One scripture for such an important issue of which there are many scriptures in favor of the opposite.

That which is perfect has come, Jesus Christ and last I read He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

... Love never fails, but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away, if their tongues, they will cease, if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face, now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known...1 Corithians 13:8-13

I have to admit if I were a self-respecting cessationist I'd be hard-pressed to defend my position from the verses above. The context does not suggest the canon of scripture. But I want to be fair to the cessationist position and look at their arguments in particular in light of the above text. So I will be googling cessationist websites to see how the they use the above scriptures to establish their position.

One argument I have heard regarding the word "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 is cross referenced back to Psalm 19:7,

... the law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul...

The cessationist says that the perfect in 1st Corinthians 13:10 is the same perfect is found in psalm 19:7. That's the perfect cannon has come. As such tongues prophecy, and knowledge have been done away.

I ask the cessationists in the Forum an I articulating this argument correctly? Please feel free to correct me if I am not articulating your position accurately.

Simply my thoughts.

Blaine

A dry loaf of bread is becoming more and more appealing to me verses the insanity in the pseudo spiritual world of the mystics and outright crackpot teachings coming out these camps. Will the real Jesus please stand up?

Brother I appreciate your sentiments about those we would call the chrismaniacs. As in anything there are abuses and excessive.

But do the abuses and excessive of some discount an authentic working of the Holy Spirit today. I'm speaking in those areas of healings, visions and dreams, prophetic utterances, words of knowledg, healings, etc.

Brother I do not know your position on the gifts of the Spirit. But do you know of any particular scripture that says that the gifts of the Holy Spirit, more like the sign gifts, have ceased in this day and age.

My sister you may be as bold as tou wish in this thread. Your posts are always filled with grace. And basically I'm in agreement with the heartthrob of your posts.

I apologize for the use of theological terms. The word "cessationist" means that certain gifts of the Holy Spirit are not operating in this day and age. That would be gift such as tongues, the working of miracles, healings, prophetic utterances, words of knowledge etc.

The argument goes that these gifts were merely given to confirm the gospel. Since we have the complete Bible. These gifts are no longer necessary.

I have noticed in recent weeks there seems to be and anti Holy Spirit bias in the forum. Thus I was trying to open up this thread as a discussion to establish from the word if the Holy Spirit has ceased operating the way he did in the book of Acts.

I realize that when I speak of these things people do get upset. But I'm simply asking that those who do not believe that the Holy Spirit is working as he did in Acts to show their case from the word of God.

My sister I hope this makes sense. But I do agree. We do need to be discerning of deception. And to test all things will be to confirm them by the scriptures.

Your brother in Christ.

Alongside the real Jesus you will always have the counterfeit Jesus'. Of course the real Jesus still responds to faith today. Why wouldn't He?

Satan always seeks to discredit and obscure the real Jesus.

Blaine

My Fundamentalist 1611 KJV only version of the Bible clearly states that the
Lord is no longer doing anything to or for anyone regarding the genuine works
of the Holy Spirit as he once did.
And if John MacArthur and his pals says so who am I to argue?

Dear Blaine

I think I can speak about the cessationist view with a degree of knowledge, as it was in a Reformed church that I received my first in depth study of doctrine for a period of seven years.

It was in the days when I thought that Christianity was all about studying the Bible and being 'sound' (in Reformed doctrine)and reading the great teachers of it including the writings of John Calvin himself.

The church was full of 'theologians' and people who devoted themselves to the study of the word, searching the scriptures daily, and I am very grateful for the grounding that I received and the understanding of the correct method of Biblical interpretation. It has kept me from error many times. These people really knew their Bibles in depth and could quote scripture right left and centre, but also with better exegetical skills, and grasp of Greek than I have found elsewhere.

However, I began to find holes in the TULIP doctrines I was taught once I began to read beyond the scriptures that were studied in the main and beyond their proof texts. I began to see the necessity of depending on the Holy Spirit in rightly dividing the word and more than that, the necessity of knowing Christ speak directly to us if He is indeed residing within us and most of all, the necessity of obedience to that heavenly voice within.

But getting back to the cessationist view, yes indeed the scripture you have quoted is the one used, to say that the 'perfect' is the canon of scripture. They do not accept it is Jesus as the perfect in the Greek is not describing a person, it is describing a thing.

But they also say that the charismatic understanding of tongues is not the scriptural one described in Acts, because since NT times, it has only existed amongst fringe groups who were to say the least, a bit dodgy and as Scott has said, we have been in the last days since then and the end has not come as forcast.

Added to this is the fact that tongues are only spoken about in 1 Cor. and nowhere else, and throughout church history, the greatest sainst never even mentioned them let alone speak in them according to the modern version.

They do however accept miracles on the whole, and that God heals today. But they are firmly against any speaking directly to men as they will quote Hebrews 1:1 on Christ being the only means by which God speaks and that is through the scriptures.

So it seems that we have only two choices of understanding the 'perfect' but that is not so, as there is another one, and the one that was taught especially during the holiness movement which has died out with its teachings.

According to that version, the perfect is the perfection of the believer. When that perfection comes, what was known in limited ways, that is prophecy and knowledge, are now seen in their fullness. Confusion arises over tongues. The scripture says 'ceases' and a different word is used in the Greek to the 'fail' of the partial, that is the partial is completed. Tongues were not accepted in holiness times apart from in cases where human languages were used miraculously as in Acts, to spread the gospel where the lnaguages were unknown.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

These verses describe the state of perfection whereby a mn is given by grace, the fullness of the stature of Christ and has the mind of Christ in the glorified state.

I have found that very few can discuss the subject of tongues without becoming angry and upset so I do not do it anymore. I just wanted to lay out the case for side which is generally not acknowledged, and which is stuck between the two opposing sides, that are not the full picture.

Yes, Lysa, if Jesus Christ was the object of that verse there would be no miracles in the book of Acts or throughout the world since then up to now. It is really kind of absurd as you consider the whole counsel of God, that Jesus Christ is really not the same, yesterday, today and forever.

How much more, in this church world of unbelief do we need the power of God, today?

The real question is this:
Do ALL spiritual things that come to us originate from God?

Brothers and sisters I read your posts. Time will not allow me to respond to each one individually. But thank you for your contributions.

I will try to avoid using the theological labels that may offend and cause controversy. I went to the websites of those who would say that the Holy Spirit does not operate today as he did in the book of Acts. I was hoping to find some scriptures other the ones quoted out 1st Corinthians 13 in which they draw their conclusions from. What I found instead was thelogical extrapolation and historical analysis establishing their position that the Holy Spirit does not operate by signs and wonders. I found it much laborious reading.

Those who hold to the above position would say Sola Scriptura. Thwy would say only the scriptures. They would say William Tyndake died to give us the Bible where a plough boy or milk maid can derive their doctrine from.

Being the baptized in the Holy Spirit and praying in tongues person that I am I believe in Sola Scriptura. So appealing to those who say that the Holy Spirit does not operate by signs and wonders as He did in the first century. And believing that God speaks clearly in the scripture. And we all believing that the scriptures are the final rule of faith and practice. Certainly regarding our doctrine.

Can somebody please show me or point me to a text other than 1st Corinthians 13 that says the Holy Spirit no longer operates by signs and wonders today?

Respectfully posted.

by Tozsu on 2016/6/27 12:08:08

The real question is this:
Do ALL spiritual things that come to us originate from God?;

No. Thus the command to us to "try the spirits"

1 Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Yes he does whatever he pleases

Brethren when I opened up this thread it was not meant to debate the gifts of the Spirit. Though some would probably turn it into that. Preciate the good spirit of your posts and discussion.

I'm trying to avoid the use of theology labels. But I do agree. I would prefer a godly person who does not necessarily speak in tongues or prophecies over one who clains to do so. But are ill tempered or crazy the way the gifts are expressed in their lives.

However let us remember that Paul did not discourage the Corithians in the use of what we call the sign gifts. But laid out directives in terms of how those gifts should be used in the body but the efification of the saints.

I do agree there are abuses and what we call to charismatic movement. People such as Dr. Michael Brown, of charismatic suasion himself, has called out chrismatic preachers for their conduct and craziness.

Because there are abusive and craziness in the charismatic movement. Let us not discount the actual workings of the Holy Spirit. Let us not retreat into Bible mode only and discourage what the Holy Spirit may be doing in our midst.

Just pleading for balance.

There is one issue that I would like to address by personal testimony. It is assumed that people such as myself, who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and pray in tongues do not read the Bible. I would like to say that this is false. And nothing can be further from the truth.

I have met people, and some in this forum, who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and pray in tongues. And they are very steeped in the word of God. And this includes myself.

I do not doubt that there are those immature believers who claimed to have an experience of being baptized in the Holy Spirit who seek out experience only. But there are solid believers who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit who immerse themselves in the Word of God.

I came out of a Calvinistic background. I was not baptized in the Holy Spirit when I was into Calvinism. It is assumed that those who were immersed into Calvinism are also immersed into scriptures. This was not true in my experience. The people that I fellowshipped with exalted in their commentaries, their expositions, their theologies, their theological degrees. Much of their intake of scripture was through the reading of other men.

I do not mean to demean such. But in my Calvinistic experience I was taught to love the thelogy more than the Word of God.

I was baptized in the Holy Spirit in the 1990s. I received the gift of tongues shortly afterwards. It was only after being baptized in the Holy Spirit that I started finding joy and delight in reading and now listening to the Word of God by an audio Bible.

I spend several hours a day listening to the audio New Testament. I listen to it in my sleep. I listen to it when I walk. I would prefer to listen to the New Testament then even listen to sermons. The word of God is a part of my life. No correction. The Word of God is my life. And I'm saying this as a baptized believer who prays in tongues.

Someone asked me in this forum do I believe in the Word of God. Anyone who knows me. Anyone who has seen my post. The question should be answered. But this testimony should answer the question of those of who think that the word of God is not my Life.

Again, the Word of God is my life. I hope this testimony will satisfy those who call my testimony in a question as one who has been baptized in the Holy Spirit prays in tongues.

Respectfully posted.

Brother Blaine

I hope I did not give the impression that I think that charismatics do not study the Bible. I do not think that at all and the charismatic churches I have been in, do indeed study the scriptures. But here is the difference I have found, and don't forget I am in the UK. The Reformed churches indeed do study theology a lot more and use other men's writings, but they are using them because they have a good grasp of Koine Greek and good interpretation practices.

So it is a matter of the depth of study and the desire to know the Greek and Hebrew. I am sure that you have an appreciation of the good grounding you had when you were in like me. However, I was always frustrated that he gospels did not get more attention - it was all Paul Paul Paul, and the obsession with the letter and not the Spirit.

This is of cource speaking in general but on both sides I found imbalance.

Tell me though Blaire, do you believe that the Spirit baptism and the gifts can be and are counterfeited?

Dear sister I have seen in your posts you do read and study the Scriptures. So I do not doubt that whatsoever in your life.

Yes sister I do believe that Satan, being the deceiver, can counterfeit the gifts of the Spirit. Or at least some of them.

Thank you dear Blaire, but do you know that the Baptism of the Spirit can be and is counterfeited? Were you taught that in your church and encouraged to test it?

Have you read this, which was written at the time when it had become apparent that a pseudo baptism was stopping the revival amongst people who believed that a baptism of the Spirit is a authentic second blessing?

"Pastor Ernst Lohmann published in Germany and printed in the OVERCOMER of 1910 wrote:

"They (heathen systems such as theosophy, new Buddhism, and spiritism) also produce revatations and prophesies, speaking and singing with tongues, healing and miracles..It is of importance that we should study this subject to find an answer to to the question as to how these phenomena are brought about.

The numerous and exact investigations which are being made in our day into the subject are giving increasing insight into this dark realm. Powers and possibilities have been discovered in man which until now have been totally unsuspected.

They are designated "subliminal powers" and we speak of "subconsciousness". What physical occurances accompany these phenomena?

The lower-nerve centres (the ganglionic system or the vegetative nerves as they are called) which have their chief seat in the region around the pit of the stomach, are excited to increase activity.At the same time , the central region of the higher nervous system (the cerebral system) which in the normal state of affairs is the medium of the conscious perception and action becomes paralysed.
There is a reversal of the order of nature. The lower nerves take over the duty of the higher ones (a sort of compensation).

This state of things comes to pass negatively by the higher organ, loosing its natural supremacy under pressure of illness or artificially by hypnotism, auto suggestion etc and possitively by the lower nerves being in some way excited ARTIFICIALLY to increase activity, whereby they get the upper hand.

These nerves then display abilities which our ordinary organs do not posseee, they receive impressions from the realm usually closed to us, such as clairvoyance,prophesy and speaking in tongues.

When in this state of somnambulism, the inner sense heightened by its activity perceives outward things as clearly and more so than when awake, and this takes place according to the unanimous declaration of all somnambulists through the pit of the stomach ie through the nerves which have their seat in this region....And it is from this part that the nerves are set in action which move the organs of speech (in the speaking of tongues)

Those in whom the sub-consciousness becomes active in this manner described above feel as it were an ELECTRIC STREAM passing through the body which is an exciting of the nerves which have their central seat at the pit of the stomach. It is from thence that the jaws are moved in the speaking in tongues.

One of the leaders of the Pentecostal Movement in describing the so called Baptism of the Spirit in his body made use of the singular comparison that it seemed to him as though there were in his body an inverted bottle. This simile was incomprehensible to me until I heard an almost identical one from a Mohammedan sooth sayer, Tewekkul Beg, describing how he would get into AN ECSTATIC STATE.

He says "After my eyes were bound, Isaw something in my inner being resembling a fallen tumbler......When this object was placed upright, a feeling of unlimitless bliss filled my being."

By exciting the lower nervous system, a feeling of intense rapture is regularly produced.

It is evident that in these phenomena we have the exact opposite of what the Scriptures understand by the communion of the Spirit. When the Spirit of God takes possession of the spirit of man HE IS BROUGHT BACK TO A NORMAL CONDITION. The spirit acquires the full authority given to it by the Creator over the powers of the soul and through the soul, the body. The concious persona; life is once more completely under authority of the spirit".

WAR ON THE SAINTS. JPL.

Dear sister much of my time was spent in Calvinism. In a time in my life I was taught to defend the Five Points of Calvinism. At one time in my life. TULIP was more important then the Word of God. Owning commentaries and reference works was more important in my life than owning a Bible. The test of my spirituality was having the latest set of commentaries. I delighted in having the best reference library in comparison to my other brothers. This was the background that I spent 15 years in.

I share this because the test of my being baptized in the Spirit was seeking Christ Himself and thirsting for His word. And the thirsting is basically for Jesus Himself.

Sister I do believe that God he is confirming his gospel by signs and wonders. I see this in the people I pray for you in the persecuted church. I am not seeking the signs and wonders. But I am seeking Jesus Himself.

If I may paraphrase the words of brother Fernando Ortega in that beautiful worship song Give Me Jesus. I would say you may have all of this theology. But give me Jesus.

Dear sister hope this makes sense.

By the way you may want to check what I posted on the devotional thread I maintain, From the Shadow of His Cross. I think it conveys more my thoughts regarding the Word of God. Because I pray it reflects those I pray for. That is the brothers and sisters in the persecuted church.

Brother Blaine

Dear brother, I have no doubts about your devotion to Christ and His word.

I asked whether you have actually tested the baptism you received, which has nothing to do with however much we seek more of Him. I will leave it. We are told to test the spirits, and this above all needs to be in obedience to that instruction. I have tested mine and it is in line with the testimony of the great holiness movement and not Pentecostalism which denies the holiness resulting from it.

Dear sister to the best of my ability I have tested it. I believe the baptism I received to be authentic.

But in the world we live in we should always be testing the spirits to see whether they are from God. Always examining uur faith to see if Christ is in us.

And to always seek His filling on a daily basis. My sister I hope this answers your question. I have tried to answer it as honestly as I know how.

Always appreciate your heart dear sister.

Brother Blaine

Thank you brother and l appreciate yours too and your graciousness.

I agree that we should always be testing the spirits but if we do not know the differences between the authentic post conversion baptism and the counterfeit one we will not know how to test it. Knowledge is all here not feelings or 'signs'. What do you understand about the counterfeit one and where is it found?

My sister I am at work now doing a seminar. But let me reflect on your question. Will respond when I get off work. I think I'm about 6 hours behind you.

Brother Blaine

Brother

It is not an interrogation, I just want to give a few issues for the brethren to think over. From my own experience in attending charismatic churches, I am concerned that there is no mention that a counterfeit baptism is a possibility and that it should be tested. It was the subject of the book we have been discussing by Jessie Penn-Lewis and Even Roberts.

Obvoiously in the case of a counterfeit there will be possitive effects, as Satan needs to be convincing when he fools us.

I have found many times that there is the belief that if one is sincere in seeking to know Christ in a deeper way and asks for the Holy Spirit, then they will not be deceived but that is not what scripture says.

It is full of warnings about being deceived many many times. If we are expecting a baptism like others who have been deceived, then that will be the one we get. If we expect to be delivered from the power of sin, then it is the one we will receive.

Indeed it can be proven if what we have experienced is the genuine article and the scripture tells is it is by the fruit of it. Not nice feelings or signs and wonders, but just basic absolute transformation after the baptism, like we find in the disciples and a holy life.

The fruit of the Spirit is laid out and this is what we should see in ourselves, all of it as they are not seperate fruits but fruit of the Spirit.

In the 19th century, this was a huge issue and Pentecostals did not accept that Baptism means a holy life, that is to say, victory over sin.

I do believe that God will give the gift of tongues when needed in that situation unless like Paul we already are able to speak in verious languages.

The books by Jess-Penn Lewis should absolutley NOT be used as a measuring stick for what is genuine or false regarding the works of the Holy Spirit. Her teachings are highly suspect, self opinionated ramblings of her own mind and with negligible biblical basis when examined in light of the scriptures.

Stick with the bible

"Since thought, or "belief," originates either from the God of Truth, or the father of lies (John 8: 44), there is but one basic principle for testing the source of all doctrines, or "thoughts" and "beliefs," held by believers, or unbelievers, i.e., the test of the revealed Word of God.

All "truth" is in harmony with the only channel of revealed truth in the world--the written Word of God. All "teachings" originating from deceiving spirits--

Weaken the authority of the Scriptures;
Distort the teaching in the Scriptures;
Add to the Scriptures the thoughts of men; or
Put the Scriptures entirely aside.
The ultimate object being to hide, distort, misuse, or put aside the revelation of God concerning the Cross of Calvary, where Satan was overthrown by the God-Man, and where freedom was obtained for all his captives.

The test of all "thought" and "belief" therefore is its

Harmony with the written Scriptures in its full body of truth.
The attitude to the Cross, and sin."

(Jessie Penn-Lewis: War on the Saints)

Yea too bad Penn-Lewis did not take her own advice with the many nonsensical "truths" she invented. And as a result she was instrumental in ruining the Welsh revival.

Then brothers and sisters let us leave J P Lewis out of this. And let us go back to the Bible. I am appealing to the reasoning of the Cessationist. These folks say that the Bible is the only infallible rule of faith and practice. Anyone who is baptized in the Holy Spirit Will affirm this.

So I am asking my original question. Can anybody in this forum demonstrate from the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit is no longer confirming His gospel by signs and wonders? In other words since we have the complete Bible written. Can a it be shown from scriptures other than the verses out of 1st Corinthians 13 that the Holy Spirit has ceased working as they did in Acts.

I have to be honest. I read the verses out of 1 Corinthians 13 8-12. I do not see how you can take the word "perfect" and get Canon. However I'm open to instruction. Also I'm open to other verses which would establish a doctrine of cessationism.

So let's go back to the Bible.

Blaire I think you need to elaborate on what you mean by signs and wonders. Do you mean glossolalia? And what do you mean exactly by confirming His gospel?

Also brother, cessationists as you should know, do not depend on proof texting. The fact that nearly all the NT is devoid of any mention of tongues and all of church history apart from heretical sects until the last 100 years or so have been devoid, is enough to convince cessationists.

... And now, Lord take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond servants may speak your word with all confidence, while you extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place to the name of Your holy servant Jesus...Acts 4:29-30

... At the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people, and they were all with one Accord in Solomon's Portico. But none of the rest dared to associate with them, however the people held in high esteem. And all the more believers in the Lord, multitude of men and women, were constantly added to their number, to such an extent that they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and palates, so that when Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on any one of them. Also all the people from the cities in the vicinity of Jerusalem were coming together, bringing in people who were sick or afflicted, with unclean spirits, they were all being healed...Acts 12-16.

... In Lystra a man was sitting who had no strength in his feet, lame from his mother's room, who have never walked. This man was listening to Paul as he spoke, who when he had fixed his gaze on him and had seen that he had faith to be made well, said with a loud voice, "Stand up right on your feet", and he leaped up and begin to walk...Acts 14:8-10

... God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hand of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons that were carried from his body to the sick, and the disease left them and the evil spirits went out.

Dear sister what I quoted above are the signs and wonders I am making reference to in quoting the passages out of Hebrews 2. Time will not allow me to mention the angel opening up the prison for the Apostle Peter. As well as a earthquake that opened up the prison for Silas and Paul. And I'm also sure there are other Miracles that even Luke does not record in Acts. He just mentioned that the elders were rejoicing in Jerusalem over the Miracles that we're done at the hands of Paul.

So is God still doing this today? Do the scriptures say that God stop doing this? If so, which ones?

I am only asking for scriptural reasoning that says God is no longer doing these things. Other than the verses quoted out of 1st Corinthians 13.

Hope this answers your questions.

Jessie Penn-Lewis never said her writings were the measuring stick. Those who say that, never read her works and are falsely misrepresenting her with their own imaginations, or other's imaginations. Maligning the servants of the Lord can be detrimental to one's health.

The single most important thing I have always liked about Jessie Penn-Lewis is the absolute importance she places on the Word of God.

From War on the Saints
This covert drawing of faith away from the bare Word of God to manifestations of God, as being more reliable, is a keenly
subtle deception of the evil one, and it is easily recognized in a believer thus deceived.

From War on the Saints
"The entire work of witnessing to Christ, and leading the Church into all truth, has been committed to the Holy Spirit. Therefore all intervention of "angels" or of audible voices from the spiritual realm purporting to be from God may be taken as counterfeits of Satan, whose supreme object is to substitute the working of his own wicked spirits in the place of God. In any case, it is best and safest in these days of peril to keep in the path of faith and reliance upon the Holy Spirit of God working through the WORD OF GOD."

From War on the Saints
"Every believer must test all teachers today for himself, by the WORD OF GOD and by their attitude to the atoning cross of Christ and other fundamental truths of the gospel, and not be misled into testing "teaching” by the character of the teacher. Good men can be deceived, and Satan needs good men to float his lies under the guise of truth."

From War on the Saints
"The safe path for believers at the close of the age is one of TENACIOUS FAITH IN THE WRITTEN WORD AS THE SWORD OF THE SPIRIT, to cut the way through all the interferences and tactics of the forces of darkness, to the end."

From War on the Saints
Supernatural visions and manifestations are a fruitful source of revenue to deceiving spirits, especially when the believer makes reference to and relies upon these experiences more than the WORD OF GOD; for the aim of the wicked spirit is to displace the WORD OF GOD as the rock-ground of one's life. Oh, the Scriptures may be referred to and quoted, but often only as a warrant for the experiences, and to strengthen faith””not in God, but in His apparent manifestations. This covert drawing of faith away from THE BARE WORD OF GOD to manifestations of God, as being more reliable, is a keenly subtle deception of the evil one, and it is easily recognized in a believer thus deceived.

From The Conquest of Canaan
"One way Israel could be ensnared was by "inquiring.” Oh, children of God, keep to your Bibles! KEEPT TO THE SIMPLE TRUTHS OF GOD'S WORD! One startling danger upon us today is HOW LITTLE IS KNOW OF THE WORD OF GOD by Christians. They can give strings of favorite texts, but as to telling you intelligently the fundamental, straightforward truth of God, they are dependent upon others for that. Those who take God's Book and read it throughout””Gospels and Epistles””until it is incorporated in their very innermost life, will quickly realize when what they hear is out of line with that Word, and they will not be drawn away from the truth as it is in Jesus."

From The Conquest of Canaan
"Does it make you more loyal to God or to the worship of "other gods"””even in sense of placing your "experience" as of greater value THAN THE BARE WORD OF GOD? In this supernatural warfare, take heed, and recognize that signs and wonders are no proof that a "prophet" or a "teacher" is of God; nor does the fact of their predictions being fulfilled bear witness that they are of God."

From The Conquest of Canaan
"He is commanded to be strong, with his only equipment the WORD OF GOD and implicit obedience to it! Such was Christ's equipment. The Lord said He lived by the WORD OF GOD, and that His meat was to do the will of His Father. All that Joshua had to do was to take the directions given to him by God and to lead under His command."

From The Conquest of Canaan
"The first condition of equipment for mastery was implicit obedience to the WORD OF GOD. This again shows you the importance of feeding on God's Word and seeking to have it so dwelling in you that your spirit is made strong. "Keep all of the commandment . . . that ye may be strong, and go in to possess the land.” Implicit obedience to the full command of God””that they were absolutely not to tamper with nor touch the things forbidden by God. To see this more clearly we will again go to the story of Jericho."

From The Conquest of Canaan
"If there is anything about your life that is not in accordance with the righteousness of the Holy One, then let Him deal with it””for His righteousness is highest love. In this warfare you must have nothing to do with what to you is wrong. Do not ask other people what is right or wrong, but ask God to make you know what is right or wrong for you; and THEN BE TRUE. Do not give what "so-and-so says" as a reason for any course you take, but do what God has shown you is right, up to the fullest knowledge of your light obtained from the WORD OF GOD;"

From The Conquest of Canaan
"If any of you believe that Satan will be redeemed, you are believing a lie that has come to you from deceiving spirits””a lie from the pit. The many doctrines that are abroad today must be brought to the standard of the WORD OF GOD."

The Conquest of Canaan - Warfare and Victory in the Christian Life http://classicbiblestudyguide.com/English/ConquestOfCanaan.pdf

War on the Saints
http://classicbiblestudyguide.com/English/WarOnTheSaints.pdf

From War on the Saints
"Henceforth it is also war by Satan upon the womanhood of the world, in malignant revenge for the verdict of the garden. Yes, war by the trampling down of women in all lands where the deceiver reigns. And war upon women in Christian lands too, by the continuance of his Eden method of misinterpreting the WORD OF GOD: insinuating into men's minds throughout all succeeding ages that God pronounced a "curse" upon the woman, when in truth she was pardoned and blessed; and instigating fallen men to personally carry out this supposed curse, though in truth it was a CURSE UPON THE DECEIVER and not upon the deceived one (Gen. 3:14).
"I will put enmity between thee and the woman," said God, as well as between "thy seed and her seed," and this vindictive enmity of the hierarchy of evil toward women, and especially believers, has not lessened in its intensity from that day."

From War on the Saints
"The man is deceived if he is a hearer but not a doer of the WORD OF GOD (Jas. 1:22)."

From War on the Saints
"A wide net is thus made for the unwary or the untaught in the principles of Scripture exegesis, and many a life is sidetracked and troubled by this false use of the WORD OF GOD"

From War on the Saints
"Since thought, or "belief," originates either from the God of Truth or the father of lies (John 8:44), there is but one basic principle for testing the source of all doctrines and philosophical beliefs held by believers or unbelievers, ie., the test of THE REVEALED WORD OF GOD. All genuine "truth" is in harmony with the only channel of revealed truth in the world””the written Word of God."

From War on the Saints
"The safe path for believers at the close of the age is one of TENACIOUS FAITH IN THE WRITTEN WORD AS THE SWORD OF THE SPIRIT, to cut the way through all the interferences and tactics of the forces of darkness, to the end."

Some of Jessi-Penn Lewis’s heresies:

Penn-Lewis learned from Guyon the alleged truth of Quietism, "an effortless spiritual life” that is "stripped of [even the] vestiges of self”[562] by passing beyond "effort or feeling or even faith”[563] to mystical union with the Divine, "the Christ-life,”[564] where "your own personality as a separate identity [is] merged in Him,”[565] and "God is””we are not.”

she wrote, "I have never had to fight a battle of ‘surrender of will’ from that time,”[555] having entered by Spirit baptism into a realm of spiritual experience higher than any promised in the Bible or experienced by men like the Apostle Paul in their lifetime (Galatians 5:17; Romans 7:14-25).[556]

Thus, the material for her books came from the spirit world, visions, dreams, voices, experiences with heavy breathing, groaning, parts of her body feeling corrupt and loathsome, and so on. Her teaching on "those deeper aspects of Romans 6 and Colossians 2”[578] were "revealed” to her in such a manner””rather than from the study of the Bible, which teaches, on the contrary, that while Christ endured the punishment of the sinful world in a vicarious way, sin being imputed to Him, He nevertheless was never personally sinful. Thus, by her visions and revelations, she gained that "deep knowledge of the Cross” which contradicts what Scripture teaches about the work of Christ on the cross. Writing to F. B. Meyer, she said, "I have been given by the Divine Spirit the interpretation of the Cross to the Christian.”[579] She "was specially chosen . . . and equipped with deep spiritual truths in these last days for the Church, truths that no one else held,”[580] since they are not in the Bible. Furthermore, the spirits that gave her revelations not only miraculously produced The Message of the Cross, "every bit of it,”

Written by by G. Richard Fisher, pastor.

"From the perspective of Penn- Lewis, there was hardly a part of the body safe from pestiferous spirits. Likewise in her view, demons could jump into and/or onto almost any part of the body at any time and possess believers. No wonder most of the circulated editions of War on the Saints are abridged and cleaned up with the extreme nonsense edited out. The book belongs in the ‘‘scary sci- ence fiction’’ section of your local Barnes and Noble bookstore alongside the X Files.

Penn-Lewis put forth the impossible premise that demons could sin through the believer, causing the be- liever to be confused and think they were sinning when they were not. She called it counterfeit sin:
‘‘Evil spirits can also counterfeit sin, by causing some apparent manifestation of the evil nature in the life, and matured believers should know whether such a manifestation really is sin from the old nature, or a manifestation from evil spirits. The purpose in the latter case is to get the believer to take what comes from them, as from himself, for what- ever is accepted from evil spirits gives them entry and power.”

"It is claimed that Mrs Penn Lewis used Evan’s name to propagate her own ministry and message. She supposedly convinced him he was deceived by evil spirits and, over the next few years co-authorised with Evan "War on the Saints”, which was published in 1913.

This book clearly delineates the confusion she had drawn Evan into. It left its readers totally wary of any spiritual phenomena of any kind or degree. Rather than giving clear guidelines regarding discerning satanic powers, it brought into question anything that may be considered, or that might be described, as Holy Spirit activity.

Within a year of its publication, Evan Roberts denounced it, telling friends that it had been a failed weapon which had confused and divided the Lord’s people."

She is consistent in all of her books regarding the imperative reliance of the Believer on the Word of God and always pointing the Believer to the Word of God.

Read for yourselves and by all means take into into account what everyone says but draw your own conclusions based on your own inquiries of the Lord for light and truth regarding what you read. He will never fail you.

From the Cross of Calvary:
http://classicbiblestudyguide.com/English/TheCrossOfCalvary.pdf

"You must quickly take, and hide behind, the "shield of faith" from the "fiery darts of the evil one," and especially keep the "helmet of salvation" upon your head, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your "thoughts" should be corrupted from the "simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:3). Above all, for defense and
attack, you will ceaselessly need the sword of the Spirit, the WORD OF GOD, which is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword."

"Faith on the part of the redeemed one is again mentioned here. Faith is nonexistent apart from its object. Faith is simply reliance upon the WORD OF GOD, with the character of God at the back of His word! "Faith cometh by hearing" and is awakened in the receptive heart by the Spirit of God Himself as He speaks the word of God to the soul."

It is the work of the Holy Spirit to wield the sword of the Spirit, the WORD OF GOD, and divide within us all that is soulish (Hebrews 4:12) from all that is true spirit. As the Word dwells in us richly and the dividing takes place, it is for us to hate the soul-life revealed and "lose" it by yielding it to the cross.

From "Life out of Death"
http://classicbiblestudyguide.com/English/LifeOutOfDeath.pdf

"As the Spirit of God reveals more fully the life of one's selfhood, and as the sacrificial knife (Hebrews 4:12, so the thought is in the Greek) of the living WORD OF GOD pierces to the dividing of soul and spirit, we must turn to the finished work of our Redeemer and thankfully recognize our place with Him upon His cross. Thus shall the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus make us free, and we shall be joined to Another, even to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God."

"Obedience up to light is one of the main conditions of "abiding," to which maybe added faith in the faithfulness of God to maintain the soul in Him, and, as well, the Word of God, dwelling richly in the heart, and the continuous application by the Holy Spirit of the blood of sprinkling (1 Peter 1:2)."

"We need to be very careful In the language we use, that it is entirely in accordance with the WORD OF GOD. The word "eradication" is not in the Bible, and if by it is meant the complete and absolute destruction of the "old creation," so that the man is sinless, and cannot sin, then it is indeed contrary to the Word of God. Avoid unscriptural language."

"Keep to the WORD OF GOD, and do not be tossed about by every wind of doctrine; and take everything you hear to the Lord, and like a little child trust Him to teach you what He means by these things in His Own Word."

"That is walking "in newness of life." It does not mean a constant struggle to hold this attitude, but as you rest upon the WORD OF GOD, believing that what He says of you in Romans 6 is true, you enter into the "rest of faith" concerning it, and the attitude
becomes a habit of life."

Brother I think your post is appropriate to the thread. You raise valid points. I don't know though if anyone who holds to a cessationist view will address them fairly.

I have tried to avoid naming certain Bible teachers and just addressing the movement as a whole. But there is one well-known Bible teacher in southern California that many of us respect. Indeed many of us who were baptized in the Holy Spirit were were weamed on his teaching. So it was disheartening when he held a conference a few years ago condemning virtually the entire charismatic movement to the pit of Hell.

The irony of the whole conference is that their cry would be Sola Scriptura. In other words let the scriptures be the foundation of doctrine. Then they would base their theology on four verses out of 1st Corinthians virtually doing theological gymnastics to establish the doctrine of cessationism based on the Canon of scripture.

Then the very thing the cessationusts would accuse the charismatics of doing. They themselves would do. The cessationist would use the experience of the counterfeit to discredit them true moving of the Holy Spirit. Rather than appealing to scripture.

There are men such as Dr. Michael Brown who are Spirit-filled believers. Dr. Brown commands academic credentials on a par with Dr. John MacArthur. He has asked for debate and dialogue with Dr. McArthur with open Bible on the issue of cessationism. Dr. MacArthur refuses to debate the question with Dr. Brown. My question is why.

The very thing the cessationist cry. Sola Scriptura. They do not want to do. Can it be that the cessationust realize that they cannot defend their position from the scriptures. At least not with an honest Berean spirit.

Personally I do not think that the doctrine of cessationism can be defended from the Scripture. At least I have not seen the evidence of Scripture to convince me that the Holy Spirit has stopped working as he did in Acts.

I do not want to appeal to experience alone. But I believe the experience I appeal to is established by the Scripture. Not seeing Scriptures that say the Holy Spirit has not ceased working padticularly in the area of dreams and visions. Then we see the phenomenal growth of Muslims that are leaving Islam and coming to Christ through dreams and visions. And their conversions are authentic. Authetic enough that they are willing to risk death and many of them do for the sake of following Jesus.

I have had a pastor on one of my prayer calls. He works in a restricted nation. He shared how God told him in his ministry the only way Muslims would be reached for Christ would be through miracles. Thus his ministry has been filled with miracles which have seen Muslims drawn to the Lord Jesus Christ.

The brother I describe is the real deal. He makes no issue of the niracles that God does through him. He talks more about Jesus Christ. He talks more about what He is going to do for Muslims. But he did share incredible stories that God did. Incredible to us. But normal for those who live out this type of faith and restricted nations.

If the doctrine of cessationism is true. Then I do not believe we would see the experiences that God is doing in the third world. However since this doctrine cannot be established from the Scriptures. What we see happening in restricted nations is confirmed and testified by the word of God.

Anyway brother these are my thoughts. Appreciate your post.

David brother,

I will answer you directly as you seem to be speaking to me personally.

I was a cessationist at one time, as it was the only teaching that l had received and can say categorically that these brethren are as much Christian as other groups .

I think you have misrepresented their beliefs however as they do not discount the working of the Holy Spirit today. They believe that He is still convicting of sin, guiding, giving gifts, comforting, in fact all of the things that scripture ascribes to Him including healing and speaking in unknown foreign languages.

Where they say His work has ceased is in the workings that we read of in scripture, as in the sign gifts for the purpose of the Jews, the many miracles that accompanied the preaching of the gospel, the many physical healings ( which have not ceased but are not as common, in fact greatly decreased) the doors burst assunder, the healings from a handkerchief etc etc. Nothing like this has been witnessed during my own conversion or the preaching of the gospel when l have been present .

They are just not seen like this since the beginning as it was a special period but that is not to deny they still occur but if they do, it is not for the same purpose, that is, to establish the New Covenant beginning.

I have seen amazing miracles during my walk, for example the woman l prayed for who was attending hospital next day for heart surgery who was found not to need it after all. And many miracles myself of healings and yes indeed l have read many testimonies about Spirit baptism from the holiness movement to confirm what had happened to me, without any prior knowledge of it and the fruit of it was as was said, that is, l had been made free from sin and had seen Jesus in all His glory regarding what His will was for a mere human.

I see much decption however, and a great lack of teaching about testing everything, and even find those who have never e ven thought that there could be a pseudo baptism and where the differences lie.

It is not condemnation and l am sorry that you see it that way, it is just a genuine concern for my brethren which can hopefully be discussed in a calm and respect manner without there being insults and over reactions.

Peace to you.

Madame Guyon was not a Quietist though perhaps some of what she wrote could be interpreted as coming close to it. Many in the Holiness movement used her writings.

Again, accusations against JPL ruining the ministry of ER are being made with no more reliable source other than someone else spreading rumours. On a Christian forum l find that incomprehensible.

As both of these writers say, it is effortless to obey when flesh has been crucified. Spiritual teachings are beyond normal human understanding. Both writers were very much scripture based.

Dear Blaire

Yes l dobelieve that in some countries, miracles are occuring when the gospel is preached though nowhere near the scale that occurred originally, otherwise the news channels would be filled with it.

Definitely not every time the gospel is preached today not most of the time since the beginning. If one observes this, and notes that tongues were not spoken of in later letters nor in the early church and there is a scripture that says that tongues will cease (of themselves according to the Greek) then l do not see where the problem is.

I think there can be an obsession with finding a verse for everything, or two verses. When there is a verse, and it can be verified by whatever is written or not written that backs it up, and then history backs that up further, then l think we are in the realm of denial. Wesley said that there should be reason as well as scripture.

But there are two issues here, one is the preaching of the gospel and another is when men are baptised in the Spirit, both taking place at Pentecost but rarely take place at the same time today unless it is during revival.

I wonder which you are meaning?

by brenda7 on 2016/6/30 3:30:00

Again, accusations against JPL ruining the ministry of ER are being made with no more reliable source other than someone else spreading rumours. On a Christian forum l find that incomprehensible.

Incomprehensible? Yes, but consider the source. I just do what Greg does and ignore them.

A much more devious false doctrine then that of being a secessionist is that of those individuals who deny the person and work of Jesus Christ,
Even in the forum you have those who deny the literal, physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. These whose basic claim is that his physical body rotted in the grave and his resurrection was purely spiritual in nature. That this spiritual jesus returned in 70 AD invisibly to the physical earth setting up his eternal spiritual Kingdom that no one can see. This spiritual body jesus is now reining over a spiritual Kingdom with perfect peace and harmony that the material Jesus died for (they say)

This is a far worse false doctrine that what the secessionists proclaim. They do not deny the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

These individuals however deny Jesus, his person and identity. They change the work of the cross from being a physical and literal work of salvation to that of a immaterial, spiritual so called salvation. That means that your body, my body will also rot in the grave and only the spirit remains, This salvation is partial according to their jesus because he did not overcome the world, flesh and the devil.

No, the real Son of Man defeated satan on every level, material, physical and eternally. His physical resurrection is proof positive. Thier spiritual jesus is a non existant loser.

These are not genuine believers as brother David suggests of the secessionists, These heresies, denying that Jesus is both man and God, past present and future are of an antichrist spirit and are far worse than debating what the Holy Spirit is now doing or not doing. Everything they say is based on a demonic misrepresentation of who the Lord Jesus is. This is far worse than being a secessionist

Then brother why don't you open up a thread on that issue so we do not have confusion on this thread. I would like to try to keep this thread more on the issue The Holy Spirit confirming the gospel by signs and wonders. At least to discuss if the Holy Spirit is still doing that in this day and age.

Thanks Julius, agreed.

by Lysa on 2016/7/1 7:33:07

by Julius27
Incomprehensible? Yes, but consider the source. I just do what Greg does and ignore them.

edited out. Sorry Julius totally misunderstood what you wrote brother!!

No problem. I quoted Brenda, so it was a response to her and she understood.