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How Was Christ Tempted?

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sermonindex

James 1:13-15, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Heb. 4:15, "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

The word lust can mean desire.

So as a man Christ had to have desires like we all do.

Now don't mistake TEMPTATION for sin. Temptation is a suggestion to gratify a desire in an illegal way or amount. Temptation is NOT sin. Jesus was tempted (Hebrews 4: 15). All men are tempted whether sinner or saint. "Every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed" (James 1:14). The feelings ("Lust" - over-strong desire) tug at the will.

These THOUGHTS or desires are not right or wrong in themselves. They are AMORAL. The Lord Jesus Himself was given "wrong thoughts" during His dark wilderness temptation But He NEVER SINNED (Hebrews 4:15). A thought may be a temptation to do wrong, but it is NOT SIN until the will gives assent to the thought. It is not the feelings OR the thoughts that make men sin.

Desires have no will of their own. They are built into all men in greater or lesser degree. DESIRES are NEVER wrong IN THEMSELVES. They are neither IMMORAL (bad, wrong) or MORAL (good, right) but AMORAL (having no morality or deliberate rule of right and wrong in themselves). Desires are God-given; used rightly, to ENJOY life; used wrongly, to DESTROY ourselves. The tug of desire is not sin in itself; but a natural feeling produced by stimulation and without direct control by the person.

So was Christ tempted by His own lust?

T
TMK

I certainly agree that Jesus had desires but He did not lust because lusting is sin.

I disagree that thoughts are amoral. I agree that temptation is not sin. But if, in your head, you begin fantasizing you are at that point crossing the line from being tempted to lusting and ergo sinning.

Jesus was tempted to lust and in turn act. But even if he had only lusted it still would have been sin.

B
brothagary

No it was satan in christs case ...

S
sermonindex

So is it satan in our case also?

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sermonindex

Heb. 4:15, "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

Christ had the same desires as we do. The desire-lust is not sin in itself.

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sermonindex

Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, after He was Spirit baptised to act from His own volition rather than that from His Father. From His human nature in other words even though it was sinless. He could not sin as we understand it.. He overcame that temptation and gained the victory over Satan. Satan tests the righteous with this one too. If they fail, and act from their own strength it will lead to sin. Jesus could not sin and was entirely sanctified. The testing us for those who are also entirely sanctified.

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sermonindex

For a temptation to be real there must be the possibility of sinning.

Without the possibility of sin - the temptation could not be real.

Edited for clarity

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TMK

Tuc I agree with everything you say except that thoughts/lust is not sin.

If that is true we could sit around all day and intentionally daydream the most vile imaginations and not be sinning.

Now, I do believe there is a point of temptation where we are not sinning. If we see a provocative picture on a magazine at the check out counter our initial reaction (wow) may not be sinning because of the way we are "wired." But if we keep looking and imagining we have now sinned. Unintentional thoughts are not sin; intentional thoughts might be.

But I do agree that Jesus was really tempted and He could have sinned. I do not hold to the impeccability doctrine.

S
sermonindex

James 1:14 Instead, each person is tempted by his own desire, being lured and trapped by it.

Yes - it is our response to the desire that can make it sinful.

Yes - If we keep looking and imagining it can turn into sin.

Now the first thought - desire itself can not be sin. What we do next is the deciding factor.

Was not the Lord Jesus Himself given "wrong thoughts" during His dark wilderness temptation? But He NEVER SINNED

J
JFW

Say a person sees something or someone who is attractive, that is temptation....it only becomes sin when we look back a second time and as has been said, engage our imagination. We don't really get to choose who/what we are attracted too but we do get to choose how we respond/react to being attracted. Sin is always a choice whereas temptation is circumstantial...

Now some people have to obey their lust because they're a slave to it, because they haven't yet experienced salvation/victory but even that is a choice from the heart.

After some time meditating last night on Brenda's thread, it is just clearer now (for me) more than ever- we all have exactly as much of God as we want. We are exactly as holy as we want to be and we sin whenever we want to. The problem is we inflate/exaggerate our holiness and rationalize our sin,... then throw a lil bible knowledge in the mix and you've got a self justifying sinner and that's a sad as scary thing/place.

The Pinterest site is a perfect example of lust as a principal of action...
People see attractive things, respond to their lust for it by putting a "pin" in it so it appears on their page and other people can visit your page and see what you "pinned" or are lusting after and then follow other people's lust... It's like lust discipleship!
People are sooo impressed by other people's pages(lust) that they "follow them" and that way they can one day learn to lust like them and other people will be so impressed that they will want to follow their page/lust too-

Now I have allot of clients who use this site (hence my knowledge) and try as I might to convince them there is nothing godly about it and it will only lead to deception, but it is of no avail.. They don't believe it's wrong or a sin and so to convince someone to give up something they take great pleasure in imagining having is no easy task, especially if they are "saved" and have bible knowledge it just makes it harder in some cases. They are just people who feel unimportant and lacking in value and believe that if other people will affirm them then they will have importance/value so they sin in order to get this affirmation.
The sad thing is we all do this in greater or lesser degrees and often rationalize/justify our actions...
As a rule if you have to "justify" your actions it's because they aren't justified
Just as if we have to rationalize our actions it's because they're irrational-


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sermonindex

The sinner is totally cut off from God. All he can do is sin. So we see that while we live in this state that sin - the devil is our master and owner. We are cut off and completely dead to God and His Righteousness.

If we live in the kingdom of darkness we are under the domain of sin we are not free at all. Sin - the devil is our master and our lord and we will do his bidding. We really have no other choice while we continue to be a servant - slave to sin. We are married to the law and under the law of sin and death. Our body - temple is infused with sin - the devil.

The sinner is just expresser of the devil and is his representative - ambassador in earth. Basically they are the devil in the flesh.

John 8:44, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

The sinner will do the lusts of devil - he is a slave of sin.

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sermonindex

Very true, tuc,

We derive/express the character of our F(f)ather. We cannot standalone in this universe. Man always looks to another (God or Satan) for his spiritual identity. There is not a third choice. We do not create good or evil, we express it as children of God or children of the Devil.

Jesus said the "devil hath nothing in Me".

John 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

The enemy will continually battle with us to get us to express his spirit.

Luke 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

We are either of God or the Devil and our position and our deliverance must be maintained. It is not a one time thing. We cannot rely on victories 20 years ago to deliver us from the wiles of the Devil, today. We must be vitally linked (abiding in Christ), daily and this way we will manifest His character and behavior.

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sermonindex

Pro 11:23, "The desire of the righteous is only good: but the expectation of the wicked is wrath."

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JFW

Yes but.... "Saved" people still sin because they lust (per James) and have not.... The problem of sin is compounded when we seek justification apart from Christ which, unfortunately we sometimes do...
Jesus said He neither said nor did anything that He didn't see/hear His Father say/do. So while I see and receive the point being made of "identification" the person who sins is ultimately responsible for their choice to sin against God after salvation has appeared to them and their minds enlightened by the truth.
For me personally, it seems to be a case of not fearing God in spite of the repeated NT warnings to this effect-

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sermonindex

Yes saved people do sin because the devil has deceived them about themselves.

I do not think it is a case of lack of fearing God but not knowing the the real TRUTH and responding to it.

They are believing a lie and only the TRUTH which is the person of Christ who is actually dwelling, abiding and living within them can set them free.

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JFW

Yes that is true but not exclusively so...
For example; earlier while driving home from holiday with the kids, I got a roll of sweet tarts for them to hopefully distract from hours in a 45 yr old truck with no airconditioner and after peeling off some paper to get them a few, the thought/temptation came to toss the minuscule paper out the window... now immediately after that thought, almost on top of it, came the thought that the Lord would have me leave it in my truck and discard it later in a proper fashion. So if I had tossed it anyway would that have been sin?
Yes for me to do so is to violate my own conscience and that would only lead to the justification/rationalization I alluded to earlier which serves to harden our conscience toward sin. That's why what is sin for one may not be sin for another. There is no law prohibiting me from tossing the paper out the window and so I'm free to do so,...except in this case it wasn't ok for me to do so tho for another person it may not be an issue to do so.

This is where Jesus excelled and we all have failed at one point or another even after salvation. Just like Jesus, today I had a choice to obey or disobey (even in small things). So when someone cuts us off or almost causes us to crash, we have a choice to either respond in frustration/fear and give space to bad thoughts and act/speak on them or in faith towards God and act/speak on these....Jesus, no matter what, always responded in faith towards God and was thereby perfected through suffering.

The reason I see it as a fear issue is because if I had tossed the paper out and hardened my conscience, as opposed to obeying and keeping it supple, I would have acted apart from my fear of the Lord and sinned. Tho because of my fear that I may sin against Him and thereby break communion, I for conscience sake simply obeyed. Now in the moment it didn't occur to me but after a moment the Lord showed me how that tossing it out would be a bad example to my young boys and seemed undisciplined which in their eyes would make me a hypocrite as I surely don't allow them to toss things out of a moving vehicle.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this, while I totally get the point of identity, it in and of itself is not all there is to our walk in a practical daily sense. In my understanding, our walk is a deeply personal one tho the implications of obedience/disobedience are pervasively corporate.
Again this is where Jesus excelled, as He says it was for the disciples sakes that He sanctified Himself tho there were many things He could've otherwise done.

D
dohzman

Jesus was tempted on this wise, lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life. The question asked is could He sin, honestly the better question is why would He, He is God, He subjected Himself to our low estate so that He could lead us through the cross and resurrection keep us through His prayers of intercession knowing full well what it is we suffer through when we are vexed by temptation and in this with the supply of the Holy Spirit lead us through to victory or remediate us until we become overcomers.

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JFW

Yeah He could have sinned otherwise there is no real temptation... and so why would He? well Jesus got hungry after 40 days of fasting and was tempted to turn a rock into bread... Now if He didn't have a choice then there was no temptation, if He did have a choice and the power to satisfy it then the temptation would be real would it not? Jesus was tempted on all points just as we are but responded in faith towards God. Jesus got angry more than once but responded in faith, not in anger and so did not sin. He even resisted the temptation to sin unto death.
He feared His Father and as Isaiah 11 prophesied, delighted Himself in it.
And Jesus tells us to fear Him too!
But do we,...do we really fear Him?

Jesus knows our Father more intimately than any of us and if He fears Him and tells us too as well and then sets an example for us of obedience unto death then perhaps it is an important aspect of overcoming temptation.
People are more likely to give in to temptation when there is no perceived immediate consequence to having done so... But sin always has a consequence just like the truth does. Temptation also carries a consequence in every case,...either we resist it and grow in grace or we give in and make grace of no effect. Jesus had to grow just like we do, and had to choose righteousness just like we do,...in spite of what temptations may come our way. None of us will be tempted beyond what we can bear so in the end we are without an excuse.

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dohzman

Define sin

T
TrueWitness

The word temptation means to be tried or tested. This is the broadest definition of the word. However, most Christians when they hear that word assume it means to be enticed or seduced to commit sin. Jesus was tempted meaning he was tested with hardship, difficulties, persecution and/or suffering which he could have gotten out of, but if he did that he would not fulfill God's will for Him. Jesus never had any desire or desires to do or say anything that God forbids. Any temptation of Jesus to gratify sinful desires would have been futile because Jesus did not have a sin nature inherited from Adam. It would be like someone offering me a cigarette. I don't smoke so I pass the test or temptation easily. But I was tempted in the strictest definition of the word temptation. All humans inherited a fallen nature from Adam and therefore have to deal with sinful desires within. Some people more than others and in different areas. Jesus was tempted to not go to the cross, to not endure scoffing and mocking and derision from Pharisees, etc. and to not endure the scourging and other abuses that happened prior to the Cross. These were severe testings (temptations). But Jesus never had any sinful desires in Himself.

Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me (John 14:30).

There was nothing in Jesus that would respond positively to any enticement from the world, the flesh or the Devil.

I know that plenty of Christians have a different take on this than what I am presenting here. If you feel offended by my post and you decide to respond to it and give a reply, I ask only one thing: Tell me by answering either YES or NO to this question: Did Jesus ever have any desire to any degree to do or say anything that God forbids? I say the answer is NO!

-Daniel

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JFW

Disobedience...
not acting in faith towards Gods revealed will-

If a person has no knowledge of God,His will, or His law then, as Paul says, he still has a conscience and when we violate our own conscience we sin tho when we live by its light we show the law written on our hearts.

Sin can just as easily be doing nothing as it can be doing something.

Again Jesus makes it clear by His example, we can't overcome sin without overcoming temptation for there is no sin where there is no giving into temptation.

Is it a sin to eat? it can be and would've been for Jesus in the desert...
is it a sin to desire food? No but we are not to live under dominion of our flesh and if we do we will be an "Esau".

So sin can also be defined as fulfilling a good desire in an illicit way as apart from Gods will. Notice that the temptation Jesus faced in the wilderness in each case was to "hurry" what was already planned.

D
dohzman

Rom 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

I often hear many people talk about sin but it usually contains in it a list of do s and don't s . omissions and commissions.
Jhn 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I believe sin is anything in this life that causes us to fall short of the glory of God. Jesus had the Holy Spirit without measure being fully God, we on the other hand do not, so the original question of could He sin is really a trap that DD's(doctors of divinity) like to argue over for some reason, it's beyond me, maybe to justify their own weaknesses and short comings, who knows, but since Jesus did not sin, speculation as to could He sin is really a moot point and fruitless, it really has no value. The first Adam fell the Second Adam did not.

As to the wilderness temptations lust of the flesh, stone to bread, lust of the eyes, "I will give you all this(the temptation of the worldly kingdoms), pride of life, cast thyself down from here. As a side note, I do not believe that any of us can fully comprehend the depth or full degree of the temptations Jesus endured, they would indeed transcend anything any of us could even begin to imagine.


Quote( So sin can also be defined as fulfilling a good desire in an illicit way as apart from Gods will.) The downside to this type of belief is that one will spend so much time second guessing themselves and striving to legalistically follow after Jesus that they never really enjoy Him. 1Jo 1:1-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;1Jo 1:4
And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
Christianity is a walk of celebration as equally as it is a walk of obedience.

J
JFW

"Quote( So sin can also be defined as fulfilling a good desire in an illicit way as apart from Gods will.) The downside to this type of belief is that one will spend so much time second guessing themselves and striving to legalistically follow after Jesus that they never really enjoy Him."

Hmmm not sure I'm following your point here... Are you saying that the downside of truth causes there to be less joy?

It's not a sin to desire food, but it can be a sin to indulge that (good) desire in an illicit way....just as it could be said of sex or of knowledge or...the list goes on and on.

For me at least, my joy is in obeying Him...pleasing Him:)
For me that's not legalism it's love:)

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dohzman

What I understand in that statement is a type of introspective walk that never stops looking at self and how "I" measure up to the scripture and always self correcting. That type of person ends up having a very judgemental view on all of life and measures everything against a legalistic standard. That was not to imply that I was making any direct reference to you personally, it was just how I read that passage and what came to mind. In all things temperate or moderate or reasonable to be sure.

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JFW

Ha! Well it would seem I have an introspective walk then brother;)

For me, taking thoughts captive is an introspective activity tho I understand from others perspectives it may not be so... Like for brother Tuc (if I'm understanding his position correctly) it's an identity issue-

So if I may ask, how do you deal with temptation?

S
savannah


Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world comes, and has nothing in me. John 14:30

Hath nothing in me -

There is in me no principle or feeling that accords with his, and nothing, therefore, by which he can prevail. Temptation has only power because there are some principles in us which accord with the designs of the tempter, and which may be excited by presenting corresponding objects until our virtue be overcome. Where there is no such propensity, temptation has no power. As the principles of Jesus were wholly on the side of virtue, the meaning here may be that, though he had the natural appetites of man, his virtue was so supreme that Satan "had nothing in him" which could constitute any danger that he would be led into sin, and that there was no fear of the result of the conflict before him. A. Barnes

No sinful nature in Jesus!

The seed determines the nature. We all have fathers with sinful natures going all the way back to Adam. Such seed can only reproduce its own kind. So with Jesus. He is the Son of His Father. His seed can only reproduce after His own kind. As the Creed states, "Very God of Very God."

When Jesus declared that the devil had nothing in Him, He was testifying to His own sinlessness.

We are tempted from within. The devil has something in us to work with. With Jesus the devil has nothing in Him to work with. Jesus is tempted from without.The flames of hell don't even leave an odor of smoke upon Him. Hell's battering ram doesn't even phase heaven's door.

Oh!...how glorious how excellent is Thy Name LORD Jesus!

S
sermonindex

Romans 6 states very plainly that when we believe in Christ that our old man was crucified and buried with Him. The Christian is commanded to reckon themselves dead by faith.

Christians DO NOT HAVE A SINFUL NATURE!

We are now His Holy Temple and have received HIS Divine nature. WE are NOW the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God in Him! We were born again by the incorruptible SEED of God!

Jesus Christ ”“ the LAST Adam - lived 100% as a NORMAL man on earth. His flesh was no different than anyone else's flesh. He did not overcome sin because He was the Son of God but because He lived by 100% FAITH in God. Do not forget that without faith it is impossible to please God.

Now the devil will make you think that you still have a sinful nature by projecting thoughts and desires to your mind that do not belong to you, just as he did to Christ. He then makes you think that these thoughts are really yours and that they are coming from inside you. THIS IS LIE!

Now because we were MADE one with God by Christ the real truth is there is NOTHING in us for the devil to grab hold of. Now if you believe that these thoughts or desires really come from yourself, you will then attempt to do something about it without placing faith in God and His word. You WILL FAIL in any attempt you make because you are acting without faith on a lie.

Do not forget that as He is, so are we in this world.

1 John 4:16, "And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.”

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JFW

Brother Tuc,
We are in agreement, at least on the first part;) ha!

However in my understanding, we have a choice on wether we feed on the things of this world (lust) or on Christ....
If a believer feeds on the things of this world then they have chosen to partake of worldly lust and therefore have "something of the devil" in them which must respond to his temptations. Jesus didn't feed on the world (lust), rather He fed on the "bread they didn't know about" His Fathers word, so when the devil came he had nothing in Him literally- but this was by choice.

By feeding on Christ we are conformed to His image, tho if we feed on the world we will be conformed to the world....
You are what you eat~

For me, to always blame the devil is to not take personal responsibility for my part in the "co-laboring" with Christ.

S
sermonindex

One Nature
By: Dan Stone

There's a deep rut in the Christian faith, as most believers experience it. It's like a ditch that you run your car into and can't get out of. Unless God tows a believer out of the rut, he or she will never fully live out of their union with Christ.

The rut is this: most of us believe that in the depths of our being we are both good and bad. Or, to put it in theological terms, we are both righteous and sinful. Using a common illustration, we believe that we have within us both a white dog and a black dog, a good nature and a bad nature, that are fighting for control.

But that is not true. It is vital that we know it's not true, because if we believe that we are both righteous and sinful, it will be impossible to live out of our union with Christ and to rest, trusting that He lives through us moment by moment. Instead, we will be focused on ourselves, on getting our act together, on winning the war that supposedly rages within us, trying to suppress the bad part of us so that the good part will reflect the character of Christ. This endless self-effort is the complete opposite of what Paul wrote:

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God... (Galatians 2:20)

The only way out of this dilemma, of believing that we are both good and bad, is to understand that the realm of the spirit, above the line, is singular. It is one. The realm of appearances, below the line, is a duality. It is two.

In the realm of appearances, there is constant evidence of good and evil, both outside and inside us. If we judge by appearances, we arrive at the logical conclusion that we are both good and bad. That looks entirely valid. Christians have believed this for centuries. Except for a small minority who have come to know their true identity in Christ, the whole Christian world accepts the lie. Unfortunately, although something may not be true above the line, if below the line we think it is true, it still controls us. We must choose to live out of what is singular, rather than what is dual.

The realm of the spirit, the singular realm, is eternal reality. That is where our spirit being lives, and where our true identity is settled forever. The realm of appearance, although we must live in it in the here and now, is false as far as our identity goes. All of life depends on which realm is ultimate reality to you: the realm of spirit or the realm of appearances. That's going to determine what you believe and how you live.

Choosing to believe that you are not both good and evil can be difficult. All of the external proof, all of the apparent evidence, all of the sight, supports the opposite: that you have two natures. "You are good, yes, a little good, but boy, you are still wicked; you are still evil." Only the Holy Spirit can reveal to you that you only have one nature, not two. In the core of your being you are not both righteous and sinful; you are only righteous.

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sermonindex

In like manner, instead of an awareness of "union with Christ” as "partakers of the divine nature” (II Pet. 1:4), evangelicalism has fostered the double-minded duality of the Christian having two internal natures that are in conflict. This is illustrated by the hypothetical presence of a "black dog” and a "white dog” dwelling within the Christian, and these are involved in a life and death struggle to determine who will win.

What this produces is a schizophrenic understanding of identity that results in a paranoid uncertainty of whether one is being motivated by "self’ or Jesus. "Is this me, or is this Jesus?” The confused Christians can then engage in the "denial” of being able to win the behavioral battle, and resign themselves to antinomian sinfulness. Alternatively, they may conscientiously have doubts about their salvation that are relieved through periodical emotional and ecstatic religious experiences or ritual observances.

When evangelicals do attempt to consider who they are, they usually develop a negative sense of "self” that is self-denigrating and self-deprecating. Their self-talk goes something like this: "Jesus died for such a worm as I. I am nothing. I am just a sinner saved by grace. I am still a dirty old man inside. If you knew the real me, you would not want anything to do with me. Neither would Jesus. So, what I must do in order to be what God wants me to be is to engage in self-denial and suppression of the real ‘me’ and my sin. I have to put myself down in self¬surrender and brokenness. I have to ‘die to self’ in masochistic self-crucifixion. Basically I am bad, evil, and sinful, but ‘praise the Lord,’ my past is forgiven and the future is assured, even though the present is the ‘pits’.”

If that is all the typical evangelical Christian knows, and a "deeper life” teacher comes to explain to him that "as a Christian, you have ‘Christ in you, the hope of glory’,” that is "good news” indeed! It’s almost like being "born again” again! And if someone comes to tell him that "Christ in you” means that you are "one spirit” with Jesus, and that you have a new spiritual identity in "union with Christ”””WOW””a whole new world of life and freedom opens up in understanding his "union- identity of being” by the indwelling Jesus.

In my own personal experience, it was the writings of W. Ian Thomas that first introduced me to the awareness of the indwelling Spirit of Christ, and it was Norman P. Grubb who filled out the dialectic understanding of an identity union with Christ.

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sermonindex

I have heard it taught for years that we Christians still have the old nature, and we have to fight daily to maintain our equilibrium in Christ; however, we can never hope to get rid of this monstrous old nature in this lifetime. We are told that there is a white dog in us and, at the same time, there is a black dog in us. Who wins the battle? It all depends on which one we "feed" the most. Some years ago, I actually owned a small white Poodle and a large black Doberman Pinscher. In my case, the small white Poodle won because she was the oldest and, believe it or not, bossed the Doberman around. That is fun for me to think about, but this kind of erroneous teaching is very serious: it keeps us Christians in bondage, always striving to maintain the power of the white dog.

Some years back, several friends of mine and I went to Memphis, Tennessee, to visit a huge church. We three housewives were sitting in the office of a well-known and respected minister in that area. As I shared these union truths, the minister stopped me. "Are you saying that you believe that Christians today can really experience union with Christ and live without condemnation? Do you think that we Christians can really get out of the Romans 7 and experience the freedom of Romans 8?" I said, "Yes I do." He went on to say, "Don't you know that 98% of all teachers, preachers, and theologians don't believe that we will ever be free from the 'Old Nature' until we are in Heaven?" "Yes, I do know that false consensus, but it is not what the Bible says, and is therefore not true." The minister was amazed at the audacity of us women. So were we!

Romans 6:6-7 clearly says, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified WITH him that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin." Why would this minister say that we can never be delivered from the old nature if the scripture clearly says that we have been delivered through Christ's crucifixion? I believe it's presented that way by bible teachers because most can't explain why we Christians still feel and think things that are clearly not Christ. Therefore, the theologians make these verses in Romans only a positional benefit, but never a present tense personal experience. To me that is much more a "license to sin" than taking God's word for face value. Why? Because it keeps Christians always struggling with and fighting themselves, always trying to improve themselves through self-effort. The irony is that we actually sin more when we operate from fleshly self-effort. Self-Effort is the sin!

What we need is clarification on where the bad thoughts and feelings are coming from. Most theologians say they come from the old nature. The Bible says that the Old Nature is crucified with Christ therefore the old nature doesn't live any longer. Who is right? I think we better believe the Bible. The problem is that there is no discernment between soul and Spirit, that is, between our Spirit (nature) and our soul/body, or our flesh reactions. Our flesh is wide open to Satan's temptations and we spontaneously react to them. If you touched a hot stove, wouldn't you react? Well, since we are not condemned for having a bodily reaction, why are we condemned for having a soul reaction? Both are flesh reactions, and both are neutral, neither good nor bad. It is just a normal human flesh reaction. The problem doesn't lie in our having reactions; the problems lies in our lack of discernment and, as a result, what we do with these reactions.

Actually, we are blaming our flesh for the lies that Satan is continually pouring onto us from the outside. Satan even disguises himself as you and me, in order to defeat us through his accusations. He speaks to us in the "first person," making us believe that it is coming from our own minds and our own feelings. I personally believed these lies for years and needlessly hated myself for it, too.

What I hated most is that I couldn't change myself. Unknowingly, I automatically assumed that I ought to be able to fix myself, especially now that I was a Christian. Hadn't I managed myself for years? I thought that now that I was in Christ, I could do an even better job. Wrong--the lie again! My identity is not my flesh. My personhood is in my spirit where the Holy Spirit makes His home in me. Our flesh is only the means to express our Spirit union.

However, if we function from our soul as we have all our life, we will identify our soul to be "who we are." If that is true then John Denver's song, "Some days are diamonds, some days are stone," will be how we see ourselves. This is how Satan tricks us into believing that we still have the old nature. We are identifying ourselves to be our soul, and not our spirit joined to Christ. What a dilemma!

The answer to our dilemma is to take by faith that Christ has already delivered us from the old nature. Otherwise we are trapped in our soul reactions with no apparent way out. There is a way out, but not the way we think. The way out is what Christ has already provided for us at the Cross. The provision is yours, but if you refuse what is provided, then you are calling God a liar, and continuing in Satan's lie.

Why would God put Romans 8 in the Bible if it were only a carrot on a stick, dangling there to tease us with an impossible freedom, when in reality we can only have that kind of freedom in the eternal future? That makes God cruel. The minister in Memphis was stopped by my comments, but not convinced. Someday this truth will be common among God's people, but for now there is still much strife when these insights are presented.

The liberating truth in Romans 7:17 clearly reveals that the human is not the culprit: "It is not I that do it." Satan is the culprit, disguised as a big, able, "Independent I." Around and around we go trying and failing and ignorantly putting trust in ourselves, but all along being deluded by Satan's lie of self¬improvement. I always say that Romans 7 is a "lie"! It is the truth about Paul's experience, but he believes the lie concerning his identity. The fact is that "the Old Man was and is crucified with Christ, in order that the body of sin might be done away with" (Rom. 6:6). If you don't believe that fact, but instead believe the lie of independent-self, you are giving power to your tug-of-war experience. The tug of-war experience is happening because you are being deceived by Satan into believing in the power of "your supposed human abilities to conquer your besetting sins. And when you don't succeed you are condemned because you think you should be stronger or try harder. So we make vows to our self, or to God, to try even harder the next time. That makes us experience false guilt, and self hatred. The human ends up taking the blame as the guilty evil culprit because you think you should be more holy and good. So around and around you go spinning on the wheel of failure, frustration, and defeat. The whole premise of that kind of thinking is based on a big lie, or I should say, "THE BIG LIE."

The human is a derivative being, deriving its nature from the one who indwells it, because the human has no nature of its own. What does the word NATURE mean? The Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Creek New Testament written by E. W. Bullinger, says, nature is the "generative and productive power, i.e., the essence." Only a divine Spirit can have generative and productive powers from which the human can only derive its life. The human vessel was created to derive its nature or power source from the one who indwells it, either Satan or Christ, and not from itself. It is impossible for the human by itself to have and be its own generative power.

So does the Christian still have an evil human nature able to produce evil? If the human vessel has the power to produce evil, then there is a strong possibility that the human has the power to produce its own righteousness. Then why would we need a Savior at all? The human cannot contain but one nature at a time. The evil human nature supposed in Roman 7 is really Satan disguised as a good and performing me, and is not who we are. The power never comes from our might, nor our power, but by the divine power of Christ's Spirit within us.

S
sermonindex

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=56846&forum=34

J
JFW

Yeah I see and understand what you're presenting.... But I don't find it to be true on a whole in my reading of scripture...

Especially the logic presented in the last paragraph of S.P.'s article...

Having said that, it's not that I disagree with the premise of identifying with Christ, however I find the conclusion presented by the author as itself flawed because Christians clearly sin/produce evil after salvation. Now is that because they "lost their identity"...? Maybe but I believe it's just they were acting out of their flesh rather than faith and that (for me) is a choice-

Take Paul for example,... When he stated he hoped the judaizers would castrate themselves,...now (for me) this was clearly not Holy Spirit speaking through Paul but was Paul speaking from his rather frustrated flesh... and as such was a choice-

T
TMK

Ephesians 6:11-13 "Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."

As Bugs Bunny would say, "of course you know, this means war."

S
StirItUp

Quote JFW:
"Take Paul for example,... When he stated he hoped the judaizers would castrate themselves,...now (for me) this was clearly not Holy Spirit speaking through Paul but was Paul speaking from his rather frustrated flesh... and as such was a choice-"

No JFW! Paul was merely emphasizing the importance of protecting the freedom for which Christ set us free! Not to be brought under bondage again.

Some related questions following on Tuc's presentation:
Can one be " born again " of the Spirit and still be a sinner by nature?

What does John mean in his epistle when he says that whoever is born of God does not sin for His seed remains in him and he cannot sin,for he is born of God...

T
TMK

quote:What does John mean in his epistle when he says that whoever is born of God does not sin for His seed remains in him and he cannot sin,for he is born of God...

He means it is not his modus operandi. Sinning is not his habit or desire.

What it does NOT mean is that believers cannot sin because earlier in the same epistle he called people that claimed this liars.

Why does Paul use language like "pommeling" or disciplining his body and bringing it into subjection, if it is merely a matter of "identifying?"

J
JFW

Sorry for delay in responding - been very busy with work...

So to your first question,...Can one be " born again " of the Spirit and still be a sinner by nature? No but born again people still "miss the mark" at times which is sin....

to the second question...
What does John mean in his epistle when he says that whoever is born of God does not sin for His seed remains in him and he cannot sin,for he is born of God... That a born again person doesn't make a practice of sin in the way they did prior to the new birth whereby they were slaves to sin...

But to say that a born again person literally cannot sin ever based solely on the fact they are born again is an absurd postulate in my understanding of scripture.
Another example of Paul getting "fleshy" is when he lost it on Mark and Barnabas... I mean that's (for me) and equally obvious occasion of him failing Gods grace.
In regard to his castration comment, I find him very frustrated (and understandably so) that they were coming behind him and entangling his spiritual children in the observation of the 613 laws that make Christ of no effect. So I do share with you that the importance of the situation was great, I do not find the scripture to confess the conclusion you came to as to his actions though we do agree on his motives:)

Brother Todd,
Ha! That exact example from scripture came to mind when I first read brother Williams response-

D
dohzman

So if I may ask, how do you deal with temptation?

I normally don't have trouble keeping my mind fixed on Christ, His Word and His person, I ask for help a lot and have found Him faithful, but there are days when everything seems to take on it own scheme of things and events happen pretty fast and I miss it, sometimes its just a thought I did not cast down or maybe a Word of encouragement or witness I did not speak out loud, and sometimes I just get lax and do not take the time to seek or wait on the Lord I just go head long in a direction. I have had so many trials over the years with temptation to what most would look at as the biggie sins that my life is ordered in such a way that those areas are dead, the warfare now is really more subtle where the temptations are geared to bring into a wide spectrum of things to neutralize my faith from being active, doubts, fears, condemnation things like that.I guess through out the day I really never stop praying I do often times stop listening though. Not sure if that answers your question or not?

S
StirItUp

Brother Fletcher and Todd:

I by no means am advocating the doctrine of "sinless perfection"

I was merely adding to what our brother "tuc"posted in so detailed a way, that as a church body we can be kept in bondage by a wrong understanding of what it means to be a NEW creation. Of course, this LIFE we now live comes from being united with Christ by faith.
Nonetheless, apostle John pretty emphatically states that a born again person (spirit) cannot sin and in fact seems to be saying that if one continues to sin habitually, is one then truly born again?

Perhaps we need to remind ourselves of the teaching quite popular in the Word Faith camp regarding the tri-partite being. Spirit, Soul and Body, ie. that your born again spirit cannot sin being united with Christ, but that our souls (minds) are in many ways still unrenewed and need restoring and that our bodies, being still mortal and inclined to sin. needs the "pommeling" referred to by Todd?

In His Love,

S
savannah

Romans 7:14 I know that God's standards are spiritual, but I have a corrupt nature, sold as a slave to sin. 15I don't realize what I'm doing. I don't do what I want to do. Instead, I do what I hate. 16I don't do what I want to do, but I agree that God's standards are good. 17So I am no longer the one who is doing the things I hate, but sin that lives in me is doing them. 18I know that nothing good lives in me; that is, nothing good lives in my corrupt nature. Although I have the desire to do what is right, I don't do it. 19I don't do the good I want to do. Instead, I do the evil that I don't want to do. 20Now, when I do what I don't want to do, I am no longer the one who is doing it. Sin that lives in me is doing it.

21So I've discovered this truth: Evil is present with me even when I want to do what God's standards say is good. 22I take pleasure in God's standards in my inner being. 23However, I see a different standard [at work] throughout my body. It is at war with the standards my mind sets and tries to take me captive to sin's standards which still exist throughout my body. 24What a miserable person I am! Who will rescue me from my dying body? 25I thank God that our Lord Jesus Christ rescues me! So I am obedient to God's standards with my mind, but I am obedient to sin's standards with my corrupt nature.

J
JFW

Brothers Tuc, D. Miller, William...

I sincerely love each of you and appreciate and have learned from each of your contributions here on SI. You are all my brothers in Christ and I praise His name for what He has done in and thru each of you. So I say this in love and implore each of you to seriously consider this passage of scripture in light of your recent posts/positions- as I have no desire in me to "be right" but I do earnestly contend for the faith as it was given us by the apostles.
If what each of you are saying is the whole of the story then what do you do with these words...?

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, "The Lord will judge His people.”

Brothers I honestly ask you, is this not fundamental to our faith?
And are not the scriptures clear here as in other passages that we, after enlightenment/new birth whatever you wanna call it, we can shrink/draw back into sin/perdition?

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Do not the scriptures as a whole exhort us to be patient and persevere in faith?
If our unity/identification with Christ in spirit is "all there is to it" then why dear brothers do the scriptures not plainly state this? And why are there continued and repeated warnings AFTER salvation to discipline ourselves, beware of false teachers and strange doctrines etc...

S
StirItUp

Dear brother Fletcher,

We are not far from agreement at all.

I agree with all you have said about self discipline and perseverance etc.

The book of Hebrews is written mainly to confirm the High Priesthood of Jesus and the all sufficiency of His blood sacrifice.
Therefore Hebrews 10 which you quote is not speaking to individual sins but The sin of unbelief, the drawing back from faith in Jesus Christ.

The most precious possession we have is our faith in Jesus Christ and therefore the greatest spiritual attacks we endure are those which attempt to draw us away from that faith. This is The fight of faith we fight!

Look again at the encouragement of verse 39: but we are Not of them who draw back to perdition.....

AMEN

D
dohzman

I don't follow after the doctrine of sinless perfection and the passages you sited are more geared toward those who turn away from Jesus Christ and His priesthood and turn again to Judaism. I guess if you was to stretch it to be symbolical or a type of you may be able to use it as those who start off believing in the all sufficiency of Christ and His sacrifice and Priestly office, how one once walked in Faith but now turned away and legalistically attempted to earn their own way into the Kingdom of God instead of resting in the intercessions and sacrifices of Christ, they lost their trust in His eternal Blood and the workings of the Holy Spirit. I don't think you have a good handle on the book of Hebrews and how to properly exegete it.1Jo 1:9 confession of sins Jas 5:16 confession of faults 1Jo 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
There is a good resource www.blueletterbible.org you may want to explore it can be used to help you gain a better handle on the Word of God

J
JFW

Thank you both for your responses they are both much appreciated and are taken seriously in light of this discussion.

It is not unfamiliar to me to hear that a particular book was written and only applies to a particular group ie; Hebrews to the Jews, however if we follow this stream of logic, most if not all of the scriptures we have can be dismissed on this premise. For if Hebrews is exclusively for the Jews then so it is with Ephesians, Thessalonians, Galatians, etc...
I have also heard it said that the words of Jesus before the cross also do not apply to us and I find this too to be a convenient way of dismissing the words of our Lord. (Tho I'm not suggesting either of you hold this position)

So in light of the rejection of this warning in Hebrews as being applicable to us as Gentiles, may I offer this passage of scripture from 2nd Peter 2 which is a parallel to the aforementioned text...

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Please understand I present this in a meek and gentle spirit not seeking contention, rather I hope to better understand how you brothers address these passages in light of the position you're presenting here.

Also brother D. Miller-
Thank you for the BLB suggestion, it happens to be the first app I ever downloaded and one of the only that transfers when my device upgrades. It is a trusted and beloved resource for me and without question my most used app.

Again thank you both for your continued patience with me as I inquire further into your understanding of our Fathers words:)

D
dohzman

2Ti 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Your conclusions at the outset of this response are way off and you clearly do not have ears to hear what has been written to you.

What you did in the prior post was to misapply the Hebrew texts in an effort to really label us as apostates as those who have turned away from Christ, at the very lest you are really trying hard to place condemnation or judgement on Tuc/William/and me. When you see, let me rephrase that for you, WHEN YOU SEE your BROTHER IN SIN GO TO HIM. I may be missing something here, but I don't recall having knowledge of talking to anyone or being directly confronted by anyone personally. I doubt that you went to South Africa or any other region to spy out and literally see anyone commit a sin and if you did why didn't you simply go to them and confront them? You are walking dangerously close to those who sit on Moses seat and judge and condemn another's servant Rom 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. Rom 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

My recommendation is that you gain a good handle on Romans Chapter 8 before you take to being the voice and conscience of another as one who thinks they speak for God.

T
TMK

Dohz-

What are you talking about? Fletcher hasn't called you or anyone else an apostate.

He was simply using the Hebrews passage to show that a true believer can fall away. You may not agree and that is fine. But I don't see where he has called anyone an apostate.

J
JFW

Wow!
Umm ok then...
Blessings to you brother D.

S
sermonindex

If you truly believe that you still have a sinful nature I doubt I can change your mind.

That was one of the worst translations of Romans seven that I have ever read.

Look again at this:

Rom 7:21-23, "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

When Paul attempted to do good and avoid evil he found that he was fighting against a law.

He is not talking about sin but a law. If you try to do good and avoid evil you will find the same law. You will find out the same thing thing that he found out - that you will be unable not only to do the good that you want but you will end up doing things that you hate.

This law will prevent you from doing that!

Now the good news is that Christ has set you free from this law!

Rom 8:2, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

When I tried to do good and avoid evil I found that it was IMPOSSIBLE. What I hated most is that I couldn't change myself. Unknowingly, I automatically assumed that I ought to be able to fix myself, especially now that I was a Christian. Hadn't I managed myself for years? I thought that now that I was in Christ, I could do an even better job. Wrong--the lie again! My identity is not my flesh. My personhood is in my spirit where the Holy Spirit makes His home in me. Our flesh is only the means to express our Spirit union.

I had to repent of ALL self confidence, all attempts to somehow improve myself or make myself better.

As long as any person attempts to do good and avoid evil they put THEMSELVES under this law and as a result will only experience bitter defeat and failure.

Now I am free from this law because I am under under a better law. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

J
jujashan4

Major Ian Thomas, who has sermons on here has a saying "The only one capable of living the Christian life is Christ". He's talking about Christ in you!
Also if you go to David Pawson's (possibly the best actual teacher I've ever heard) website he has a really good short series on Romans 7.

S
savannah


Thanks tuc,for addressing Romans 7:21-23.

You say, "...I doubt I can change your mind."

This law spoken of here...where is it?
"...law in my members...the law of sin which is in my members."

Twice we're told where, and we're also told that we're warring.

When I receive my new body, the war will be over!

So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. 1 Cor 15:42-49

And in regard to you changing my mind...the Holy Spirit has wrought that in me when He began that work of salvation by granting me repentance. Repentance at the root is a change of mind.

We're kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

"My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness."


The thought of foolishness is sin: and the scorner is an abomination to men. Proverbs 24:9

Young's Literal Translation
The thought of folly is sin, And an abomination to man is a scorner.

S
sermonindex

Ezek. 36:25-27, "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean, I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from your idols. Moreover I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you will be careful to observe my ordinances."

Now the word "heart" here is our very essence and core of our very being. It is the root and foundational source that makes us - us. I think would could use the word nature here instead of heart without twisting the scripture.

It is clear that God REMOVES the old heart (nature) and the gives us a NEW heart (nature) in its place. No person can have two hearts at the same time. That is impossible.

Now is this not the same thing thing here?

Romans 6:6-7, "Knowing this, that our old man (nature)is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin."

S
StirItUp

Dear brothers and sisters,

If any man be in Christ he is a new creation.....plus all the other scriptures referred to by Tuc, clearly reveals that Christians, children of God, have a new heart and a new spirit.

What are we trying to get at in this thread?

I don't think anyone can deny the truth of the new nature. Nor can we deny that our minds are being renewed by the Holy Spirit, nor can we deny that our physical bodies ( members) are still earthly and prone to temptation.

Romans 12: ...present your bodies as a living sacrifice...

SIN was crucified in Christ. We are a new people, a born again people, set apart from sin to serve the living God.

What matters now is that we remain in Him through faith, holding fast the good confession, abiding in the Vine...

In His Love

D
dohzman

I do apologize, I went back and re-read the entire thread and for some reason the first time through I thought it was directed toward a few of us myself included, I was wrong and apologize for the last post I will keep it up though so it does not cause any confusion if any others may stumble on it. I guess I just read it wrong, sorry about that, I do ask for your forgiveness in this matter bro. DMiller

J
JFW

Brother William,
I agree with you and brother Tuc that we indeed have a new nature and a new heart and praise God for that:)))

However, for me at least, it is an issue of wether a person who is reborn complete with said new heart and nature can still sin and fall away...

You stated; "What matters now is that we remain in Him through faith, holding fast the good confession, abiding in the Vine..."

Amen to that!!!

However the question seems to be not so much wether we have a new nature, we do! ... and we all seem to agree on this point openly, rather wether "remaining in Him by faith" is an automated action (not just generated) by God Himself whereby one who is reborn is incapable of falling away from the faith or wether one can after the new birth?
If so, then it goes back to how do we deal with temptation so as to not be turned to the left in disobedience or to the right in deception...
If it's not possible for one who is reborn to fall away, then why does the enemy bother with us at all?

Also I do sincerely appreciate your patient and peace loving disposition as it serves well to promote unity in the faith:)

Obviously there are scriptures that seem to read both ways... So perhaps in the end it's that we view the "potentials and literals" differently and that's where there is a miscommunication?

J
JFW

My dear brother,

You were forgiven before you asked:) it was obvious there was a misunderstanding...
And I too apologize for my clumsy words and any offense or distress they may have caused- and I do appreciate your wisdom and humility, it is something we could all use more of:)

S
StirItUp

Thanks brother Fletcher,

Appreciate your posts. I understand there are different positions around this point of falling away.

It's bed time here in South Africa so won't get into it right now although I have some idea of what I would like to say.😀

Allow me some time and further study and I will get back to you, God willing.

The Lord's grace be with you all.

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