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Greg - Question about David Pawson

S
sermonindex

Brother Greg,
I just recently discovered the rich Bible teaching of David Pawson. I noticed SI has 1 of his sermons/teachings on Divorce & Remarriage. But this brother has hundreds of video sermons/teachings on YouTube and elsewhere on every form of Biblical topical issue, book by book Bible teaching, etc. I have really been blessed by most all of what I have watched from him. I have watched him Mostly on the subjects of Israel in scripture, Eschatology, Revelation, Habakkuk, etc. but he has Bible teaching & studies on virtually everything you can think of. Any reason why you don't have more of his stuff available on SI?
God Bless,
Jeff

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sermonindex

Dear brother,

We do have over 10 audio sermons by him here also: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=528

We appreciate some of the teachings we have heard by this brother, we have not looked extensively into copyrights and if he is willing to release all the materials. Also we have never had the opportunity to connect with other saints that have a relationship directly to him, as that is the cause for many speakers we promote, that we have witnesses and a Holy Spirit led connection and verification.

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sermonindex

David Pawson, now 86, is a very well known and respected ex-Methodist Baptist preacher in the UK. He grew up in my area and attended the university of my home city. He has spoken at Keswick l believe. Someone l knew in the past but who is now with the Lord considered him her favourite Bible teacher and she heard him speak in person. I don't know his end times position, but that is something l do not take much notice of, being mainly conjecture.

S
sermonindex

I have just learned that David has prostrate cancer so sadly his time with us is probably short.

S
sermonindex

Oh no!

I know Corrie Ten Boom after her stroke wanted only to hear her nephew play violin & Pawson teach/preach. Although Pawson teaches on nearly every Bible subject there is, FYI - eschatologically he is Classical Historical Premillinealist & teaches on such as we'll or better than anyone I've ever heard. I don't want to turn this into a "free for all" attack on him or the view (not that you would, but some here would, or would subtly do so), but he is a very good Bible teacher. He believes in the sovereignty of God, but is not a "Calvinist" or a "Anti-Nomianist". He believes in the final salvation of all Israel according to Romans 11:26 (& explains the overall context of the book of Romans and when, where, why & to whom it was written very well. I believe He is a jewel to the Body. Just glad I ran across him on the net.
God Bless,
Jeff

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StirItUp

Thanks for the info brother Jeff.

Will most certainly give him a listen.

Blessings,

N
narrowpath

I met him in person and he spoke in our church back in the UK a couple of times. I highly recommend his teachings. Not sure what stance he takes on copyright of his material, but I can ask a friend of mine who knows him well.

J
jujashan4

I heard him speak in person many years ago in Australia, I don't think I've heard a better bible teacher. Very balanced.
The messages on his website are free to download.

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sermonindex

That would be cool Narrowpath. I can't imagine there are copyright issues since his stuff is free everywhere & there are hundreds upon hundreds of his teaching/sermons on YouTube that are posted by everyone under the sun. I would love to see them all here on SI. He digs up meat & brings up details & points that others do not. You can tell he came up with real study & research & not learning by quick google searches what everyone is throwing around as popular or common answers. And he lays out information and explains step by step (line upon line, precept upon precept) in a way that isn't the common trend of "proof-texting"
a verse/s in isolation (eisogesis) to make an argument, but taking all of the scriptures as a whole together building upon foundations & "scaffolding" information upon what is already known and established previously. He is solid.

S
sermonindex

"Unlocking the Bible" excellent series on Youtube.

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savannah

Jeff,

Here's David teaching on John 3:16 -


Part 1 https://youtu.be/8ttu_lbtLvo

Part 2 https://youtu.be/0oP6EzOlL-8

Part 3 https://youtu.be/X91K0qqmNxs

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savannah

As I listened to David Pawson teaching from John 3:16 he states that God doesn't love everybody, nor is the concept of unconditional love biblical.

Listen for yourself...

Anyone have any thoughts on these messages?

S
sermonindex

Savannah,
Well, I have listened to the first ten minutes of part 1 & he brings up some interesting points. Mainly, that not once do Jesus or the apostles preach PUBLICLY to the Lost about the Love of God. That there isn't one mention of the love of God specifically in the entire account of the book of Acts. That the apostles preach believe and repent. And even in John 3:16, although he had preached on it in this way himself before without looking closer at it, that it always gets used as an isotext out of context (pretext), even though it's the most commonly known &!used verse in all of scripture. And that lost sinners still lost in every kind of vile sin always use the phrase "God's love is unconditional" and mention John 3:16, but the phrase "God's Love is Unconditional" isn't used in the Bible one time anywhere. And that the love of God in context of scripture (especially looking at the NT) is never used once in preaching to the lost in all of scripture. It's always discussed among in context among those already redeemed. I guess one possible potential objection to that would be John 3:16? Was Nicodemus already converted? I don't think so because Jesus told him "you must be born again".'but the total message in all 3 parts is 4 hrs long, so I'd want to listen more to his point before making a judgement overall. He is making some good points though on what we commonly do and don't see in scripture compared to what we preach. Many preaching/teaching men & many evangelists have pointed out before the gaping hole in the Gospel commonly preaches saying the American gospel tends to be "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life so repeat a prayer after me and it doesn't matter what you do after that, because God's love is unconditional." Men like Paul Washer, Leonard Ravenhill, Michael Brown, AW Tozer, Art Katz, Ray Comfort & many others have pointed out the Biblical and scriptural incompleteness & flaw of preaching this unbiblical and unbalanced "gospel lite" and point out that "God is angry with the wicked everyday", and "the wrath of God abides on them" & many other such verses. And not mention the evangelistic preaching of John the Baptist, Jesus, & the apostles was always "repent & believe the Gospel...& bear fruit in keeping with repentance....", etc. And David did a study examining that out of 35,000 verses in scripture, only 35 (1 in 1,000) specifically mention the love of God either for Israel (coming out of slavery in Egypt) or His people as a whole in the NT. Pawson is never afraid to dig into "controversial commonly held belief" if in his study scripture doesn't bear it out. I'm not sure I'd necessarily agree with David 100% on every single little thing (or anyone maybe for that matter. I love him, but disagree with Spurgeon on cessationism, & though am strong in believing the sovereignty of God in election, I'm also not a true, full 5-point Tulip Calvinist either, and I can likely find small minor issue/passage disagreements with almost anyone if I listen long enough. And maybe over time I move a bit as the Lord gives more light or maybe I see more clearly how wrong they were. No man but Jesus had 100% light. We see through a glass dimly until the perfect comes & we know fully even as we are known). Anyways, you got my interest up now, so I will likely listen to this on my headphones today as I work repairing dispensers at work. I wanted to cut and paste the comments he put under the 1st YouTube clip to explain where he's coming from better, but it wouldn't let me. I'm sure I'll have more comments after I check it all out.
God Bless,
Jeff

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sermonindex

One more interesting thought in regards to myself & my testimony that relates to this subject.

I grew up in Christian School. I went to church with my mom. And at Church on The Rock in Rockwall, TX when there was actual revival there (before it all crashed). I had gotten emotionally moved & beieved (mentally) Jesus died on the cross for me. I understood that apart from Him I was going to hell. I understood that God did that out of love. I had said the prayer (more than once) in tears in services and at Christian camps, had voluntarily gotten baptized (2x I think?), etc.

But when I persisted in my sin and rebellion, the ending course of all my sex, drugs & rock n roll (literally), violence, was ending up in a jail cell looking at 20 years, addicted, broken, humiliated, etc. What led up to my actual supernatural conversion? Where no man preaches a Word to me, but God Himself spoke to me through His Word? Somehow & for some reason (God's Soveriegnty I can see now, Him knowing what "one thing I lacked") I picked up a Bible and started in 1 & 2 Kings? Well, God commanded an angel & 185,000 people get slaughtered at once, at the Word of the Lord? Say what? That's not the God I learned about growing up? And then I read through Proverbs. What? Everything I thought I knew was completely upside down & backwards. And then Inread through the Gospels & saw that yes, Jesus loves me enough to die on the cross, but that His message was one of clarity I had not previously understood concerning repentance. Good fish and bad fish. Scathing rebukes of the proud & self-confident. Grace to the humble & resisting the proud. Judgement at the door. More talk of hell than heaven (by far). Serious sobriety in the Gospel as a whole (not verses plucked out here and there and added commentary of man). I repented and cried out "save me a wicked sinner" & was radically born again! So I see the point of over focusing on "the unconditional Love of God for lost people in sin and loving it" not leading to repentance & faith as having some validity. I'll see what I think of his message overall after I am totally done so I don't wrongly understand or accuse him, & have a full picture of his point and his view.

D
dfella

Savannah:

This can be a sticky subject and has caused much debate in Christian circles. Many people who read, quote, and hold up John 3:16 banners at sporting events misinterpret and/or misunderstand what this verse is actually saying.

For me I have read this verse thousands of times and was one of my very first memory verses but I never saw what it plainly says about the love of God. Very much like the many testimonies I have heard from the Jewish brethren who have read and studied OT scriptures that clearly represent the person of Jesus Christ and never saw Him before and then one day the scales are removed and there He is.

Most of the people that come against what John 3:16 really says are those whom love there sin and have absolutely no motivation to repent and stop sinning because they love their sin and they think God loves them anyway while they choose to continue in and practice their sin.

They say, God loves everyone in spite of what they choose to do with the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus says, Unless you repent, you will perish.

So, lets look at what this verse clearly says.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH....

It does not say whosoever does not believe.

Gods love only benefits those who believe and receive that love. If we truly believe we will respond to that love through obedience and repentance, Jesus says if you love Me, keep my commandments, he who says he loves Me and keeps not My commandments is a liar and the Truth (Jesus) is not in him.

Gods love is available and sufficient to save every soul ever born from the time of Adam, but we all know that many or most as the original language indicates, will not choose to believe, repent, turn, and obey.

God already knows before we are even born if we will choose to believe. So the question is does God love those whom He knows will reject Him in the end?

Psalm 5:5 says, The foolish shall not stand in His sight and God hates all WORKERS of iniquity. A worker of iniquity is one who will not believe, repent, or obey therefore they reject God. A worker is one who DOES, ABIDES IN, PRACTICES, CONTINUES IN,and COMMITS sin.

Gods love is available to all but demands a response, if we end up not responding, and ultimately end up separated from Him for eternity can we still say God loves or loved those people?

This topic has been heavily debated here before but when we preach the Gospel and only tell sinners that God loves them, for some, that is not enough motivation to cause them to turn and repent. I have heard many, even in my own family, who believe God loves them in spite of their love for their sin and they have no fear of God to stop and turn from their sin.

They believe when they die, God still loves them and would never send them to hell.

John 3:36 KJV He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Gods wrath abides and continues upon a person until he responds to Gods offer of love. Yes it is available for the taking but while we are in a state of rebellion it is wrath and not love that abides upon us.

I will close with this, NO MAN, knows the beginning and end of another human being, only God knows. I may get into trouble for judging here, but when Adolph Hitler was born, God already knew his end, that AH would ultimately be used of the devil to cause the death of millions of people and end up murdering himself.

AH never responded to Gods love, it was available to him, but ultimately he rejected it. In past tense, we can now say AH is separated from God, at what point can we, looking back, ever say that God still loves or loved AH?

Agape Love, Gods Love, is unconditional and is available to all, including AH but it has conditions we must meet. We must believe, repent, confess, and continue and endure to the end. The Apostle Paul is one of many we can say God loves, now presently, AH is not one we can say God loves or ever loved.


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dfella

I believe Jeff answered this question very well and brought up excellent points that are spot on.

Jeff, may I email you privately?

S
sermonindex

Sure.

jeffmar1130@aol.com

God Bless,
Jeff

S
sermonindex

I must admit that 25 minutes in he is saying things I am trying to point out all the time (& usually getting "proof-texts" thrown at me in the form of single verses with no context).

"The word 'text' has always meant all the writing in a book minus the table of contents, Bibliography, appendix, etc. Only is Christendom has somehow the word 'text' been transformed and used to mean a few words removed from their greater context apart from the rest of the book. Of course we know a French bishop in the 14th century added the chapter divisions & an Irish bishop in the 15th century the verse numbers, so now what was added for convenience actually has created those who 'look up verses' rather than those who 'search the scriptures' as was the historical command and practice."
David Pawson

I have my own term for such: "textualists". But that's something I thought of on my own. Context of scripture is so important. Without it, we all can get led off on some weird rabbit trails & errant teachings. Everyone of us.

F
forrests

by savannah on 2016/8/4 5:01:32

As I listened to David Pawson teaching from John 3:16 he states that God doesn't love everybody, nor is the concept of unconditional love biblical.

If I may: This comes down to how we interpret the cross of Christ and the atonement He provides.

For:
"By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us.."
~ 1 John 3:16

"He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins."
~ 1 John 4:8-10

Also bearing in mind what John had already said earlier in his letter:
"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."
~ 1 John 2:2

The whole reason that God provided a Way to us is that He is love. The only reason we have a gospel to preach ("...repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.") is that He is love and Christ has died to make atonement for our sins.

So in my estimation:

Q) Does God love everyone?
A) Absolutely.

Q) Is this love unconditional?
A) Yes and no.

The offering of it, who it is available to, is unconditional and unlimited.

Christ came for all, unconditionally - man having done nothing to bring it about (except fall into sin). It was the love of God that moved God to redeem man and nothing else. The love of God came to us in Christ, laid down His life for us, draws all men to Himself and beckons us to come to Him.

Yet is the reception and experience of it that is conditional. To enter into and enjoy the love of God, one must come to Christ and enter into Him - and that is conditional on faith.

So, God loves all and has offered His love to all; yet it is in and through Christ alone, and one can only receive this on the condition of faith in Him.

My thoughts. Blessings, brothers.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


One more thing on this subject:

"Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another."
~ 1 John 4:11

S
SugarRun

Second audio-Explains the important word "for" and "so".

Why does the verse begin with "for"? The Greek puts the word "so" at the beginning.

Pastor Pawson then goes beyond the text to context .He also questions----Did Jesus speak the words of John 3;16 to the end of the chapter?
He does not think so and explains why he came to that conclusion.

Putting in into its context [verses 14 and 15]a paraphrase John 3:16 would read "Indeed, in just the same way, God the Father acted in love on another occasion.This time for the whole rebellious human race by sacrificing His own natural Son so that all who go on trusting and obeying Him might never be ruined beyond recovery but go on having everlasting and abundant life." [Numbers 21 tells us the other occasion in detail.]
eileen

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forrests

I believe another compelling evidence of the universal and unconditional love of God is that God has called and commanded us to love unconditionally. (Has He not?)

God calls us to an unconditional love for our enemies - would He call us to something that He Himself will not do..?

Jesus even links this universal and unconditional command to love our neighbor as ourselves to the first and Great Commandment: to love God with all of our heart, soul and mind.

This tells me that to truly love God in that way is to have the love of God in you; and if this love is in you, loving mankind unconditionally (your neighbor as yourself) should be natural (to the degree that you walk in the Spirit) - because God is love.

If God didn't love all unconditionally, He would be requiring us to do something contrary both to human and Divine nature - contrary to both "nature" and "grace"...

In all of this, I do not seek to ignore, avoid, or contradict the revealed truth that God hates all workers of iniquity and is angry with the wicked every day - but neither should we sacrifice the former on account of the latter either.

Grace, peace and Joy to you all in Jesus the Lord.

F
forrests

by savannah on 2016/8/4 5:01:32

Anyone have any thoughts on these messages?

I am 21 min into the first one - I will weigh in if I listen to all three.

If my previous posts seemed critical of Pawson, please understand that they are not - I am largely in agreement with him so far. I just don't understand how one can point to Jesus as the Express Image of God and the Crucified Savior and compel them to repent and avoid the love of God that gave Him to us as a Way to do so.

When one truly "beholds Him on the cross", how can they not see the love of God? Those who see Him and perceive the love of God toward man given to us in Him - those are humble and receive His grace.

Those who see Him on the cross bleeding and dying for the wretchedness of mankind, and still question God's love (on account of the reality of suffering or hell) are proud and perverse and God will resist them..

I will declare Christ crucified for our sins and new life in Him (by His Grace)- and in so doing be lifting up the love of God.

Let those who scoff and mock do so...God forbid I should conceal the love of God seen in Christ and Him crucified in order to avoid it.

In fact, it seems that their still questioning God's love on account of hell, in light of Christ and the atonement He provided (and at such a price, that sacred Head being wounded - what injustice!) manifests and magnifies the righteousness of God in condemning them to hell as their proud and rebellious and evil hearts are glaringly exposed.

I believe this effect of the gospel of Christ and Him crucified, in itself, does make the righteousness of God (in condemning men to hell) manifest.

- OK, enough until I listen to it all. Sorry! :)

S
sermonindex

Forrests,
Keep listening and listen closely to what he is and isn't saying so you don't misunderstand him. He says the whole of scripture reveals God's love overall, but that's not what he is speaking to. He is speaking of exactly what the scriptures themselves teach, what Jesus & the apostles taught and preached recorded in scripture & what exactly they shared with who and when? I'm not totally agreeing with everything he says carte Blanche necessarily, nor can I disagree with a lot of the points he is making from the scriptures. But make sure you understand what he is and isn't saying before you disagree with it, amen? 😊 Definitely food for thought & reflection on the scriptures at the very least if you agree or disagree with him I think.
God Bless,
Jeff

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forrests

by jeffmar1130 on 2016/8/4 13:34:50

Forrests,
Keep listening and listen closely to what he is and isn't saying so you don't misunderstand him.

Amen. Sound advice. Thanks brother. :)

Just to be clear, I was not intending to go on the record as disagreeing with David - but just sharing my thoughts on the love of God and whether it was unconditional or not...

Be blessed brother, thanks for your gentle and loving dealing with me. ;)

S
sermonindex

No worries.

I am trying hard to make sure my words are seasoned with grace and in the right spirit as much as possible. I can be pretty direct & can be misunderstood in my writing quite often, so your encouragement that I am being heard in writing how I mean it (people are RARELY offended when they talk to me on the phone or in person and can hear my tone/spirit, but reading a writing is easier to misunderstand) is appreciated. Thank you for encouraging me that I am coming across not as a horses rear end in what I write. Some of it is a need for wisdom/discretion & some of it is the Lord keeping me humble (something the Lord knows I need). Anyways, thanks for your kind words.
God Bless,
Jeff

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forrests

by jeffmar1130 on 2016/8/4 14:42:59
I can be pretty direct & can be misunderstood in my writing quite often..

I can relate - though for me it is not just my writing...I am learning that a fair amount of the blame can be laid at my feet but the Lord has been faithful to teach me about myself (by revealing Himself to me more and more) and I am also seeking to be more gentle and loving in my approach.

You were very gracious and gentle and your admonition was well received as the result. God bless you dear brother.

S
savannah

David Fella,

You said, "God already knows before we are even born if we will choose to believe."

I agree that God, being omniscient, already knows before we are even born if we will choose to believe.

I do not want to misunderstand you, so I am asking, are you saying that this foreknown believeing is the reason God saved them?

I was listening to a pastor from Texas named Tim Conway. Some of his sermons are on sermonindex.

In this particular sermon he emphatically states that such foreknown faith is definitely not the reason any are saved.

If you'd like to hear this sermon, here's the link;

http://subsplash.com/illbehonest/v/c88cfe3

Tim has a ministry in Texas. Many of his sermons, as well as Paul Washer's sermons may be heard at the ministry website illbehonest.com

Definitely worth visiting often.

S
savannah

Forrest,

You mention atonement!

Have you done a study of Christ's atonement?

Because all the verses in your post have the pronoun "us" and/or "our".

I ask again, have you studied all the verses which speak to this subject?

F
forrests

Brother, I'm not sure if you are aiming at something - but I believe unlimited atonement to be scriptural. I do believe that once a person believes in Him, the atonement being applied to him by faith, there is a special sense of 'us' and 'our' in the sense that it has been applied to us. But I do understand "the whole world" to mean everyone.

And yes, I have studied this epistle to some degree.

What's on your mind?

(Also, the thread was about Pawson and then the love of God...I am still trying to listen to the three sermons on that in order to weigh in on it - now we are veering into atonement; can we try to stick to one topic at a time?) :)

S
sermonindex

A few points/questions:

First, to those of you who are insisting that God’s love is not unconditional and is only bestowed upon those with faith, repentance, obedience etc. I have this question ”“ How are you confident of God’s love towards you? It seems from your replies on this thread that the answer here would be rather self ”“focused. In other words ‘God loves me because I have faith’ or ‘God loves me because I am obedient’. Basically ‘God loves me because I am lovable’.

Friends, is this really the gospel? Or is it not true that God shows his love for us by sending Jesus to die for us when we were still sinners? (Romans 5:8)

Regarding the apparent lack of ‘God loves you’ statements in scripture, I believe 1 John 3:18 sheds some light here:

"Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.”

This is a command for us, but is it not because this is what God is like? Rather than word or talk, does he not prove his love for us by what he has done? I find it interesting that the famous passages on God’s love link it directly to the sending and sacrifice of Jesus (my emphasis in caps):

"For God so loved the world, that he GAVE HIS ONLY SON, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” John 3:16

"For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person””though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die”” but God SHOWS HIS LOVE for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:6-8

"And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who LOVED ME and GAVE HIMSELF for me.” Galatians 2:20b

"In this is love, not that we have loved God but that HE LOVED US and SENT HIS SON to be the propitiation for our sins.” 1 John 4:10


On David Pawson, I have listened to many of his talks and have found a great deal helpful. However, I do find him problematic when it comes to these kind of issues (Love of God, assurance etc.)

I actually once met him (back in 2009)and attempted to ask him some genuine pastoral questions on these matters. Unfortunately he was rather rude and abrupt with me so I haven’t really bothered to take him seriously since.

B
brothagary

I don't see gods unconditionaly love in casting sinners in to hell ,for eturnal torment I see unconditionaly wrath and may I say a holy hatred.


To assume that this means I or others are self centred because we don't believe in an unbibical word isdefinitely based on wrong assumption.

Clearly God said he loves us becasue he loves us ,,,no merit what so ever in us cause God to love a wretched sinner ....


God grants faith and repentence ,so ,I don't think he loves us because of that ....., maybe

F
forrests

by brothagary on 2016/8/6 7:35:50
I don't see gods unconditionaly love in casting sinners in to hell ,for eturnal torment I see unconditionaly wrath and may I say a holy hatred.

Brother, our position is that God's Love (Agape) toward us is seen in the atonement provided for us in Christ. God moved to help the unloving and undesirable - the unloveable. For the sinner, God's love is Christ crucified for their wretched crimes against a Holy (and Wrathful) God.

For those that reject His love, they are left with His Wrath at the end.

Did you listen to the Pawson messages? I'm almost done with 1 of 3. I'll try to finish them this weekend. Maybe you could listen to them and we could discuss this more afterwards?

The Grace and Love of Jesus Christ be with you and shine through you!

B
brothagary

My post wasn't directed at you forest,

I think I have heard that sermon before, but will listen again...

Don't worry brother my position is also ,what you said , maybe my definition of unconditional love is not the same as yours , I see many conditions required to recieve and stay in the manifestation of god love ,which is the presence of his spirit......

And also I can't but help to see that the atonement was done in a general and specific way , for the world on one hand ,and for his elect sheep for whom it will not fail to accomplish the full scope of what it was intended for .

Christ didn't die in vain for those traveling down the wide road..

But hiswill was to die for those whom he predicted and predestined would be conformed to his image , and for those truly his love was fully and is and will be manifested through out the eturnal age, may he be blessed and praised for ever .. Amen......

Blessing to you and from him who is able to make you stand....

B
brothagary

Butters with respect, not bothering with some one because of one meeting that didnt go well is not a Christ like thing do , much grace is required from us regarding elders.........

S
sermonindex

Brothagary,

You said "Clearly God said he loves us because he loves us ,,,no merit what so ever in us cause God to love a wretched sinner ...."

I'd be interested for you to explain that a bit further, as you evidently think this is different from unconditional love.

I think in another recent thread someone said that God's love is unconditional, but salvation isn't. I'd agree with that.

Re David Pawson I think you are actually probably correct in your rebuke and I need to sort that one out.

It's just quite difficult for me to know listen to his sermons openly knowing that he dismissed me so readily in the past (especially since the questions were concerning my own soul)

S
sermonindex

1

F
forrests

I am done with the first two messages and on the third (which is only 21 minutes long or so) and I have found his teaching to be very solid and straightforward and thought provoking to say the least. Very compelling, actually.

Now, with that said - even if I agree with David (and I am inclined to do so) that God loved the world once ever in history and He did it by "giving His Son" to be crucified (once and for "all") for our sins - I find unlimited atonement to be biblical and thus the love of God is available to all and only conditional on Christ and faith in Him.

And it seems me that to proclaim Christ and Him crucified (repentance and faith) for sinners is to declare the love of God to the lost...

But it is a great and thought provoking word and I do anticipate listening to more of his teaching in the near future (Lord wiling).

B
brothagary

Butters my definition of unconditional love may differ from yours ,
I just don't see the scriptures teach that God has unconditional love for the whole world , some who believe in the perseverance of the saints , would say that God has unconditional love for the elect , those whom he has predestined and raised up by his own mighty hand , and in a way I agree with that ,but for the world ,I don't see that, I see the atonement as an expression of gods love to the world , but that expression requires conditions to be met , when I look at the scripture and the world around me ,I see the wrath God being revealed from heaven againsts all ungodlness and unrighteousness, and I don't see that as a manifestation of gods love , but his hate for sin ...........

God bless you !!

B
brothagary

I noticed teaching that says God elects and predestines based upon his looking to the future and seeing those who by there own merit had faith ,is actually by implication saying that gods love toward us is conditional , and remains conditional ........

So it seems most people who are adement that gods love is unconditional, acualy reject the so called doctrines of grace that teach that ,and unknowingly teach the opasite ......

B
brothagary

Forest correct me if I'm wrong but pawson him self believes in unlimited atonement, he not a so call Calvinist........

S
sermonindex

Brother,
Don't judge a man on one encounter. I went and saw many years ago One of my favorite preachers ever whose sermons are all on this site (one of my top 10, maybe borderline top 5-6). I was struggling bad with something that had me on the mat for quite sometime back then (this is like probably almost 10 years ago now). I went up afterwards and felt totally blown off and like he didn't want to take the time to talk to & help me. But, looking back, he had probably been on the road traveling, little sleep, a lot of pouring out, away from home and wife/kids, & just had an off day. No biggie. I'm not going to tell you who it was, but needless to say it's a "giant of a preacher" so to speak with a solid, respectable, long term ministry. But, my faith is not in his perfection. And fact is, he's not perfect. No one is. He's a man. I don't take it personal looking back & I don't judge him for it. Maybe God didn't want some "big name preacher" helping me with my dilemna. Fact is, just like in my salvation no man was involved (locked in a cell alone with a Bible & cried out), & in my coming out of that funk caused by my sin & bad theology on God's Sovereignty, The Lord spoke directly to me (no, not audibly, but clear as day) & brought me out of that stint of crippling along spiritually. God is sovereign. In all things.

F
forrests

by brothagary on 2016/8/7 20:36:01

Forest correct me if I'm wrong but pawson him self believes in unlimited atonement, he not a so call Calvinist........

brothagary,

I can't speak on what Pawson taught regarding the atonement as I am not an avid student of his, but I did get the feeling that he held to a type of unlimited atonement theology from this teaching. One thing I can say he doesn't find biblical is "Perseverance of the Saints" - or as I call it (as I'm sure others do as well): "Unconditional Eternal Security."

That disqualifies him from being a "true" or "five point" Calvinist.

I am not a Calvinist, not even a "one point" Calvinist.

F
forrests

I finished now and I must say: it was a great teaching indeed.

I'm willing to discuss more if anyone else is still interested.

C
ChadC

I am so thankful for the Lord's faithful work through David Pawson!

The Lord introduced me to Pawson 4 years ago, and to my great surprise he was well known by several men of God whose theology and written works the Lord has encouraged me to pursue over the years. David and his faithful teaching have become gems in my library.

I felt as though the Lord had reserved Pawson's life, writing, and teaching for a time when I would be most ripe to truly reap and highly regard the Lord's work in and through him.

Having now listened to next to all of his sermons and read all but a few of his books, I again, can only be thankful for the life and work of this ardent man of God.

David allowed (and allows) the Word of God to inductively say what it says and to teach the same regardless of popularity or man's opinion to the hurt of his own "ministry". Having a powerful heritage in the Methodist movement (His great-great-great Grandfather was one of Wesley's right hand men), and whose father held the highest position a Lay-Person in the UK could hold, David would have been "set" had he chosen it. Instead he chose to regard God's Word above the official doctrine of his denomination which resulted in his removal from that particular thread of Christendom. The same "narrowing" has happened for his stand concerning the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, Divorce, Woman in Leadership, God's purpose with Israel, Hell, and the list goes on.

David has tackled some of the most challenging Biblical topics of today with an unflinching commitment to hold high the Word of God and His character, and does so with the grace that accompanies a well seasoned Saint who knows well the importance of keeping the unity of the Spirit till we all reach the maturity of Christ. His 10 years of teaching book by book through the entirety of scripture has been captured in the book "Unlocking The Bible", which has become one of my favorite study and teaching resources.

Having studied the man closely, I am also thankful that he has chosen not to teach or write much on areas he would view himself as not having the level of fruit he would have perhaps hoped (mere speculation on my part).

David Pawson has been added to my list of men whose writings and ministering are worthy of note... Derek Prince, Andrew Murray, Hudson Taylor, Watchman Nee, Mueller, Samuel Chadwick, Leonard Ravenhill, Tozer, Oswald Chambers, Boenhoffer, Law, and Moody, to name a few. :D

That being said, he is just a man, and what so blesses me is the conduit He has been for the Lord to manifest Himself to the world and His Bride!

~C

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