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Thou shalt not commit logical fallacies

S
sermonindex

Logical fallacies are commonly used by the world by those who are in darkness and are slaves to sin. But the saints have pure heart and naturally don't even consider using these. However I think it is important to be aware these tricks of Satan to protect ourselves from deception.

This website shows some of the logical fallacies:

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Job 27:4King James Version (KJV)

4 My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit.

I am very saddened that these type of logical fallacies abound in the SI forum. (The most easily detectable ones are straw man, and black or white) The result for me is that after reading some of the posts I get feelings of confusion, frustration, being tricked, empty, defiled, depleted, exhausted, angry, oppressed, bullied, beaten up. Logical fallacies are tools of deceit and used here to defend someone's position. We know that the truth does not need unfair ways to be protected...
I am sure that many of us did use these occasionally unintentionally, but that is not the same as using them always.
PLEASE STOP USING LOGICAL FALLACIES IN ARGUMENT PURIFY YOUR HEART AND BLESSING WILL FOLLOW.
I also ask the readers not to accept logical fallacies as real argument.

Matthew 5:8King James Version (KJV)

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.


Ephesians 4:29King James Version (KJV)

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

Titus 2:7-8King James Version (KJV)

7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

God bless everyone,

S
sermonindex

Thank you, Zsuzsanna!

Very enlightening website and I believe it will be very useful.

I agree that we all should understand what logical fallacies are in all of its forms and be on the alert to recognize them, don't initiate them and expose them when we see them. It is a terrible way to dialogue.

Kind regards,

S
StirItUp

Thanks for the admonition Zsuzsanna!

Hope none of us do this...and if we do unintentionally, hopefully we will be lovingly corrected :)

S
sermonindex

I don't think you have to worry about Zsuzsanna correcting others unlovingly as her initial post and many others portray someone (at least to me) who is respectful and courteous towards others. Her questions and posts are straightforward and not tainted with hidden motives which seek to trap anyone.

Too often, I see posts that seek to interrogate others using various techniques (whether intentional or not, I don't know) in order too determine if that person is worthy of being received. People don't often realize that the purpose of their spiritual interviews is to put you into either their "Received" or "Rejected" box.

S
StirItUp

Hi Julius,

My comment is meant tongue in cheek, don't worry :)

I know things can get a bit heated sometimes.

We all should learn to comment respectfully, even when challenging someone else's view.

God bless,

J
JFW

Saints,
Not so sure bout this..... Red flags abound

While logic itself is not good or bad it is also not our goal. The gospel itself is spiritual and not so logical and if these "pretenses" were common in the first century it's doubtful the gospel would have spread as it did.
For example these could've easily been used to dismantle Pauls Mars hill call to repentance by catagorizing him in one of these lil dismissive boxes.

I mean is the bible itself a logical book/story?
Or is love itself for that matter logical?
How about the most beautiful and spiritual words ever spoken on earth,... The sermon on the mount, are they a call to logic?

Just being honest-not trying to argue, but these very tactics will be used to keep people in bondage and excuse sin-

D
docs

It's common for arguments and discussions to quickly leave the intent and main subject theme of an OP. Rabbit trails many times pop up and a entirely different conversation begins to take place within another discussion and the OP becomes sort of lost. Many methods and ways are used to get across one's point or counter point but yet in so doing sometimes discipline of thought in responding is not employed. It takes time to learn how to stay within proper accepted bounds of point and counter point and is a discipline within itself. I don't think it so much has to do with whether the gospel is spiritual and is in danger of that being lost when the word logic is used. It just means that if we are discussing spiritual things then a better and more sound way of responding may be a good way to go about things.

I think what should be avoided at all costs is dropping into a thrtead for the sole purpose of insulting someone and then dropping right back out or else making up deliberately false charges that a certain person is a heretic etc. just because they disagree with someone. Only a few have done this yet how "illogical" and dishonest it was!

I like the practice of making sure one represents someone else accurately even though you may disagree with them. At least acknowledge what they have said and really believe.

Civility is a sweet odor.

Thank everyone for the many things I have learned from you.

S
StirItUp

Good point also Fletcher,

I haven't read through them all but am sure we can learn something from them, however am most certainly not planning on depending on them but rather the truth of God's Word as passed on to us and as understood by the church to be true throughout the ages.

An atheist will always use the one "begging the question" and say we are making circular arguments as we accept the existence of God and , according to their logic, cannot prove it :)

S
sermonindex

Fletch,

My take is that she was saying DO NOT USE logical fallacies and by the way, here are samples of what they look like.

If you have read any of her posts you will see she is a spiritual person who loves the Word and depends on the Spirit for revelation. That is my take on her posts.

S
sermonindex

God of course is not subject to these requirements of civil arguments he is the truth and the reference.
For example God could make this statement but we can't:
Black or white:
Who is not with me is against me.
It is true: either we are for the truth or against it, there is no third option.
But when humans do the same it is unrighteous judgement:
"Either you support lgbt or you are a hater"
"Either you are with Bush or you are with the terrorists"
"Either you agree with me or you have a religious spirit"
These statements are logically false because there are more than two choices for us to take.

I believe we can take two things as reference: 1. God (Bible) read in context and taken the whole councel of it and 2. objective observations of the physical world (such as the sky is blue) understood by God given logic and reasoning.
When talking to ateists we only can use the observations of the physical world as Paul did;
Romans 1:20King James Version (KJV)

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


By the way if Paul had used some dirty tricks in his reasoning with the Athenians or with the Jews he would have been quickly exposed and kicked out.

J
JFW

Thanks brother Julius,
I kinda gathered that and in no way was suggesting or inferring our sister wasn't spiritual or didn't love our Fathers word.

It's a bit ironic tho don't you think, that both you and our sister used "logical fallacies" to respond to me? Lol!
Not being contentious and perhaps the two of you misread my initial response. In any case it gave me a good laugh;)

S
sermonindex

"It's a bit ironic tho don't you think, that both you and our sister used "logical fallacies" to respond to me? Lol!
Not being contentious and perhaps the two of you misread my initial response. In any case it gave me a good laugh;)"

Could you please explain, which ones are those and how they are logical fallacies?

T
TMK

Quote: By the way if Paul had used some dirty tricks in his reasoning with the Athenians or with the Jews he would have been quickly exposed and kicked out.

He got kicked out anyway.

I think the point is well taken that we shouldn't intentionally use logical fallacies in our arguments.

The most common ones I see are straw men, non sequiturs, argument from ignorance, argument from personal incredulity, ad hominem, post hoc ergo propter hoc, moral high ground, moving the goalposts, proof by assertion, appeal to emotion.

S
sermonindex

"He got kicked out anyway."

You are right. I should have said kicked out as disgraced liar. He was kicked out as a persecuted upright man which was a great testimony of God, and I am sure the fact that he was kicked out but righteous, helped many to find their way to God.

J
JFW

You wrote- "By the way if Paul had used some dirty tricks in his reasoning with the Athenians or with the Jews he would have been quickly exposed and kicked out." In response to my writing this; "For example these could've easily been used to dismantle Pauls Mars hill call to repentance by catagorizing him in one of these lil dismissive boxes."

Is that not a straw man? As I had made no reference to Paul committing an impropriety, rather was saying that these types of "logic" could and imo most likely would have been used to dismantle his call to repentance. There are several that would've been applicable tho the main one as brother William pointed out, would be circular reasoning....

Again I have no issue with logic and am most certainly a proponent of civil discourse, however logic nor civility is our goal.


T
TMK

"however logic nor civility is our goal"

Spock would not be pleased.

S
sermonindex

Live long and prosper.:)

J
JFW

Hahahaha!! That was a good one bro;)

S
sermonindex

Indeed....As Spock would say with a raised eyebrow.:)

S
sermonindex

Brother,
quote:
"You wrote- "By the way if Paul had used some dirty tricks in his reasoning with the Athenians or with the Jews he would have been quickly exposed and kicked out." In response to my writing this; "For example these could've easily been used to dismantle Pauls Mars hill call to repentance by catagorizing him in one of these lil dismissive boxes.

Is that not a straw man? As I had made no reference to Paul committing an impropriety, rather was saying that these types of "logic" could and imo most likely would have been used to dismantle his call to repentance."
end quote

No. You say that Paul's Mars Hill speech can be dismantled by using these logical fallacies rules. I simply disagree. I believe that lies can be exposed by showing logical fallacies in the speech of someone. And I stated before the truth does not need unfair ways (logical fallacies) to be defended.
I BELIEVE THAT PAUL WAS SPEAKING TRUTH (AT MARS HILL) AND HIS ARGUMENTS WERE LOGICALLY CORRECT THEREFORE HIS TRUTH CAN NOT BE DISMANTLED BY EXPOSING HIS SUPPOSED "LOGICAL FALLACIES".
In the following I will present how Paul was logical.

No humans can assume that they know all truths. Therefore when they have a disagreement they conduct a debate not to defeat the other but to come closer to the (absolute) truth by examining each others'arguments as potential truths.
Before they start the discussion, they lay down some axioms (truths) that they both agree not to question. These axioms can vary depending on the circumstances. For example between christians the revealed word of God as truth is (or should be) an axiom while between christians and ateists the observed visible material world can be an axiom, and between christians and theists the existence of a higher spiritual being could be an axiom.
Paul starts his speech by the axiom that the greeks do not question: there is a god that they don't know.
Acts 17:22-23King James Version (KJV)

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Then he presented his knowledge about this god that the greeks received as a potential truth since they were humble enough to recognize that just because they don't know about something it doesn't mean that it's not true.

34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

Please note here that those who believed did not believe on the basis of logic but because the Holy Spirit testified in their heart that what Paul was saying was the truth.
However they would not even listened to him if he would coerce them to repent by referring to an authority (God of Israel) that they did not agree not to question (this was not their axiom). That would have been a forceful and sneaky way to trick them (a logical fallacy). The OT prophets on the other hand could tell straight to the Israelites to repent because their axiom was the law of God.
In summary the key is not to "commit logical fallacy" (especially "appeal to authority")is that when we state a truth we have to be able to prove it with an agreed upon truth that was included in the initial axioms of that conversation if not we can still state that truth but only as an opinion and trust the Holy Spirit to reveal it to the listener as truth.

edited for clarity

D
docs

Some may not be as proficent as others in expressing their ideas and counter points etc. Also, some may have just inadvertently expressd things in a wrong way or if they had to do it over would try again and use a different way to say things. I don't think such people are necessarily to be categorized as being in need of deep repentance and a purifyibng of their heart. Effective dialogue and conversation and expressing one's views has to be learned and on the way to learning how to do so in a more effcient manner doesn't mean folks are setting out to intentionally muddy the waters or use dirty tricks. Make room at the inn. Everyone is welcome and most will be at some kind of level that may differ from others.

S
sermonindex

docs said:

"I don't think such people are necessarily to be categorized as being in need of deep repentance and a purifyibng of their heart."

I said:

"I am sure that many of us did use these occasionally unintentionally, but that is not the same as using them always.
PLEASE STOP USING LOGICAL FALLACIES IN ARGUMENT PURIFY YOUR HEART AND BLESSING WILL FOLLOW.
I also ask the readers not to accept logical fallacies as real argument."

WHO SAID ????????????
that such people (who are unintentionally or occasionally commit these) are in a need of deep repentance?

Let me clarify my views so it would not be unintentionally misunderstood or intentionally misinterpreted:

purifying our heart is not the same as "deep repentance"
If they walk in the Spirit their heart is pure. If their heart is pure they naturally do not speak deceit.

I SAID NOTHING OF DEEP REPENTANCE AND I DID NOT CATEGORIZE ANYONE.

D
docs

Your point is taken.

I guess the part I read but missed was,

"I am sure that many of us did use these occasionally unintentionally, but that is not the same as using them always."

/WHO SAID ????????????
that such people (who are unintentionally or occasionally commit these) are in a need of deep repentance?/

Well, purify your heart was mentioned and I saw where using logical fallacies can be a tool of deceit etc. so I must have thought of purifying one's heart as following some type of repentance. I take your point though. My bad.

I was intrigued by the website you linked to. That was some keen stuff and helpful. If we can just practice it. You've made some pretty sound and beneficial recommendations.


S
sermonindex

"I mean is the bible itself a logical book/story?
Or is love itself for that matter logical?
How about the most beautiful and spiritual words ever spoken on earth,... The sermon on the mount, are they a call to logic?"

I think the word "logic" has to do more with how we think than what we think. Logic can be simply common sense, or honest conversation.

If the axioms are false logic can not lead us to truth.
Luckily we Christians have the truth (Bible) as axiom so we have a chance to discover more truth during an honest conversation.

The meaning of the word logic in the context of arguments and logical fallacies is different from the way it is sometimes used, when they say: worldly logic, childish logic etc.
1.
Is the bible itself a logical book/story?
It does not make sense based on worldly axioms such as money = success. But it perfectly makes sense according to godly principles, meaning that the Bible does not contradicts itself therefore it is logical.
2.
is love itself for that matter logical?
It is not logical to the world, but I believe and other christians might also agree that it is logical to us who are acquainted with the principles of God.
3.
How about the most beautiful and spiritual words ever spoken on earth,... The sermon on the mount, are they a call to logic?"
Yes! The sermon on the mount shows us that if we try to understand the law of god based on worldly axioms they do not make sense and we find contradictions, But Jesus shows us here the real meaning of the law and we can see that there is no contradiction in it therefore it is logical.


J
JFW

You wrote,"The meaning of the word logic in the context of arguments and logical fallacies is different from the way it is sometimes used, when they say: worldly logic, childish logic etc."

How do you view the "LF", as worldly or spiritual in nature?

S
sermonindex

While logic itself is not good or bad it is also not our goal. The gospel itself is spiritual and not so logical and if these "pretenses" were common in the first century it's doubtful the gospel would have spread as it did.

Saints,

As observed there is a value in logic as formed by plato or other philosophers. Of course God has given us a mind and there is a sense of rules or laws of how the mind things and how we communicate as humans.

I believe God's logic is above man's logic. God does not think how man thinks or communicates. Though God condescends down to our level. If we read the Scriptures or the Book of Acts we see God doing things through believers in ways that does not seem logical and the things they are told to say are strange and could even be interoperated as irrational. Yet God always has a plan in the way He works.

I am not saying that we should not pay attention to the things the sister brought up. The main intent of the forums is not to have logical discussions and come to conclusions but rather speak in ways to serve each other, encourage one another in the faith and in picking up our cross daily and following the Lord.

1 Corinthians 1:25 New International Version (NIV)

25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

1 Corinthians 3:19 New International Version (NIV)

19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness”[a];

S
sermonindex

"As observed there is a value in logic as formed by plato or other philosophers."

I understand logic as a human reasoning capability given to us by God that makes critical thinking possible.
We do not use logic to question God. As christians renewed by the Holy Spirit we have God's truth in us and as an axiom (that is:we do not question it)

We use logic to examine everything and compare it to God's truth which is the final authority.

Truth inherently does not have contradictions, while lies are full of contradictions.

Our logic helps us to distinguish between truth and lies. For example if someone says that he saw 4 elephants flying over his head yesterday, our logical thinking is as follows:
I know that elephants are heavy and do not have wings, my logical conclusion is that they are not likely to fly.
I do not just simply accept that statement as truth but by logic I form more questions such as "were they on an airplane?" I do not need to be a philosopher to do that, every child can do it.
Nikodemus didn't say: "Sure Jesus, we need to be born again you are always right" instead he used his logic and asked what bothered him about that statement. Jesus EXPECTED that question. He didn't want yes-men or zombies around him he wanted people who are fully capable of thinking.
Paul REASONED with the Pharisees from the scriptures and showed them that Jesus is the christ. The Bereans daily examined the scriptures using their logic to see whether those statements are so.

We recognize lies by the fact that they have contradiction in them. The logical fallacies website helps us in recognizing subtle and hidden contradictions. We don't want to be ignorant of Satan's devices. The website prepares us to examine the lies of the world.

"The main intent of the forums is not to have logical discussions and come to conclusions but rather speak in ways to serve each other, encourage one another in the faith and in picking up our cross daily and following the Lord."

SI forums are not supposed to have deceit on them BUT THEY DO HAVE THEM. I told in the OP how discouraged they make me.

here:
"I get feelings of confusion, frustration, being tricked, empty, defiled, depleted, exhausted, angry, oppressed, bullied, beaten up."

"speak in ways to serve each other, encourage one another"

Truth is encouraging lies are discouraging, truth builds our faith lies destroy our faith.

I would like to serve and encourage people with truth and expose lies that discourage them. I would be a fool to even type one word without thinking logically. I do not do it for my pride and I take up my cross enduring mockery.

Ephesians 5:11King James Version (KJV)

11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

The problem is not that we have debates (these can be conducted decently) the problem is that we have lies.


S
sermonindex

Our logic helps us to distinguish between truth and lies.

I believe the distinguishing of truth and error is not just mental and based on logic but a spiritual thing based also on faith, belief, and the Spirit of God.

John 16:13 New International Version (NIV)

13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.


1 John 4:1-6 New International Version (NIV)

On Denying the Incarnation
4 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

J
JFW

Sister has anyone suggested we don't need or utilize logic? Or that logic doesn't have inherent value?
You seem to be defending logic... forgive me if I'm misunderstanding your last post but that's how it reads for me-

You and I do seem to hold the "LF" in a dif regard on an individual level as we have dif opinions as to its application in spiritual matters, tho surely that's ok isn't it?

S
sermonindex

JFW
My answer about logic was to Greg.

Greg said:
"I believe the distinguishing of truth and error is not just mental and based on logic but a spiritual thing based also on faith, belief, and the Spirit of God."

WHO SAID ??????
that distinguishing truth and error is just mental and based on logic?

I said this:
"We do not use logic to question God. As christians renewed by the Holy Spirit we have God's truth in us and as an axiom (that is:we do not question it)

We use logic to examine everything and compare it to God's truth which is the final authority.

Truth inherently does not have contradictions, while lies are full of contradictions.

Our logic helps us to distinguish between truth and lies."


Am I being misunderstood or misinterpreted?

S
sermonindex

JFW
I am very curious about your explanation why do you think that we can't use the websites help to detect hidden and subtle contradictions in peoples statements.
Other question:
Do you think they are OK to be used between christians?

Do you disagree wit all or just with a couple of them? Which ones and why?

I've already wrote lengthy answers addressing your concerns, were they helpful to you?

S
sermonindex

JFW said:
"How do you view the "LF", as worldly or spiritual in nature?"

Intentionally putting a logical fallacy in a statement is a sin, a sin of deception. If someone's intent is to deceive using logical fallacies are natural to him.

The collection of logical fallacies on a website is a tool that helps me with thinking just as the spellchecker on my computer helps me.

Sometimes when I read/hear a statement I feel that something is off, but I can't put my finger on it. Studying those logical fallacies helps me identify what exactly was wrong with it.
For example (black-or-white)
"If you are not with us you are with the terrorists"
I do not agree with Bush but I don't think I am a terrorist either. So what's wrong? Why do I feel like I am a convicted terrorist already? I don't know... Why do I feel that I can't form my own opinion and make my own decisions? I don't know... Why do I feel trapped? I don't know...
What helps?
1. Prayer: I ask God "is this condemnation of the devil or am I really a terrorist?" The Holy Spirit reveals the truth about me. If this same kind of accusation happens often, all
my prayer life can be consumed by just asking God to reveal the truth about various accusations.
2. Spiritual armor
I know that I am a child of God, justified by the blood, my sins are forgiven, I know that I walk in integrity, I know that I can repent from my sin and god is not angry with me. I can also use the sword of the spirit such as God is my rock.
3. If others are also effected with this kind of confusing statement I can not tell them about my prayer or about my armor, but I can show them (and myself) what exactly was wrong with the original statement. If I think really hard using my logic I can figure out that my thinking was forced to accept an either-or situation which was a deception. Since there are also many other kinds of confusing statements that I have to think hardly about, I can decide to study these cases and quickly recognize the deception in those statements. So I don't have to waste my time and thinking power on deceptive statements. This website contains human wisdom based on the observations of many people, it is like popular proverbs (not the biblical ones) it is generally true but not infallible. So I go to this website and find that the suspicious statement contained a black-or-white logical fallacy that put me in Satan's bondage for a while.
Since this and other types of fallacies are also described here next time I will be able to quickly recognize them, and save myself from falling into Satan's trap.

You may think that No 3 is not spiritual but worldly. Consider this: Is it possible that the Holy Spirit lead me to this website?

Note: I do not accept those descriptions of logical fallacies on the website before I examine them both by logic and by the truth of God.

T
tonysmith

Just read through this thread... what a vortex of psychological musings.
I have this to say.

1 Corinthians 2: 13-15.

13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[a] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments,

With this in mind we test all that we hear. It can sound right, It can look right and yet it just doesn't sit right with our spirit.
Interestingly enough, if you take a look at the weakest part of a human being you will see that is where Satan first attacked Gods creation. The mind. It was human reasoning and logic that opened the door for satan. With such a weakness we are told to renew our minds, protect our minds and in some cases the love of GOD EVEN SURPASSES OUR MINDS ALTOGETHER...
We work in the confines of logic via calculation, God works way outside of this as you all know. That is why Hebrews 11 states that faith is being sure of what you hope for and certain of what you do not see.
One thing is clear though, the very fact that this conversation exist in the first place demonstrates that you are all aware that the mind can be easily manipulated by our enemy and you all seem to have varying levels of discernment about this.
Since then we have such power full thought processes lets consider and explain the following few things.
1. God said let there be light and there was
2. God made a metal axe head float on water.
3. God made a shadow move while the sun stood still.
4. God made the sun stand still to make the day longer.(is this why we have leap year?)
5. Jesus healed a mans cut off ear. he had two ears while he could see the third one still on the ground in front of him
6. Jesus showed he didn't need a human body to stay alive
7. God is going to burn up all the elements one day.

Just a few things to ponder and there are so many more.
If anyone comes talking to me about anything at all I weigh up to see if the spirit of God is in agreement. Just as you are doing now while reading this.


May the Lord bless your socks off today you saints.

S
sermonindex

"It was human reasoning and logic that opened the door for satan."

If you read the thread carefully you saw that I stated that christians do not use logic to argue against or question God because His truth is in them. Gods truth is an axiom and an authority to them that they are committed to obey. They use Gods truth as the basis of their reasoning ON BEHALF of God (think of the apologetics). Abraham reasoned when he prayed to God before the destruction of Sodom. Did Abraham open the door for satan?

Did you go to public school?
Did they teach you human reasoning and logic?
When you learned how to spell the words in elementary guess what you used: human reasoning and logic.
Was it useless or useful in your life? (including spiritual life)
Did learning how to write opened the door for satan?
Did the Holy Spirit or humans taught you how to do math?

I think besides the lack of faith the lack of godly human reasoning and logic makes christians vulnerable to deception.

I maintain that God is absolutely logical in the sense that He is truth and there is no contradiction in Him. Maybe I don't understand his logic but he is logical.

In Corinthians 2:13-15 Paul talks about his preaching of the gospel that the gospel is not based on human wisdom.

This doesn't prove that he did not use human wisdom ever in his christian life.

I use the expression "human wisdom" as wisdom taught by humans such as "how to build a house", and not wisdom according to the flesh and this world such as "money = success"

B
brothagary

I sort of agree with greg ,i dont feel i need anything execpt the spirit and the words of the spirit to desern false statments and straw men ,


What could this websight teach that the bible doesnt teach .???


If the bible doesnt teach it ,i dont realy believe it ,if it contradicts the prinicapls of the word of god ,its false ,doesnt matter how good someone's argument is , they are wrong ,im biast ,when it comes to the bible , and my faith from God burns in me ,the worst that happens is i become angry ,and jelious for the word from god ,

Iv sat up many nights talking for over Six hours ,with fallacies being thrown at me left riight and centre, by my dad ,,but the holy spirits still burns and gives me faith ladened words that that are sharp and hot , filled with passion tears and love , and that is sufishent for me ,weather some one believes it or not ,its still stronger that plain pure bowlful of conjecture,based on negative misled emotions and worldly deception,with spoon full of neejerk reactions ....

S
sermonindex

Thanks Gary,
Your post made sense and was comforting to me, although I do not 100% agree.
God Bless you

B
brothagary

Tozu i agree and notice these things in the forum,and i think i know exacly when and what you are talking about and who , iv been here a little wile ..

So i know in a way how you feel ,but i dont think most of it is done deliberately, scripture seems to be taken out of context ,due to certaint ways people interprate things based around things people feel strongly about .....

B
brothagary

I thinks also when it comes to natural reason like words and maths ,the general princalple is from god ,due to him being the gretest mathematician and oridgnal speaker ,

But when it comes to spirtaul battle,the spirit ,is enough ,with the word ,and the apolagetics that are inspired through the spirit ,,, thats my view .

Theres less effort involved and a feeling of resting flow....

S
sermonindex

Gary, I agree in the most important part, thanks again, I can breath now...

D
dfella

Friday July 15th:
Yesterday after pondering this topic throughout the day I decided to write a response after work but then decided not to send as I wanted to wait and further ponder this topic as well as to see where this topic would lead.

As I have read the brothers responses they have confirmed for me what the Holy Spirit was speaking to me personally. I believe the responses are filled with Godly wisdom and spiritual reasoning of which a bear witness.

Thursday July 14th:
No disrespect to you Zsuzsanna but for me since I read your post very early this morning 4:30 a.m. the "website" (not you, your thoughts, or intentions)did not set well with me and I agree with Fletcher that there were many red flags as well.

I did take the time to read through several of the LF's and in light of scripture there was no unity/witness for me in several of the examples but rather contradiction (in my spirit).

Personally, I am not a debater and I prefer not to argue when it comes to the Spiritual, Gospel, Doctrine, Truth, etc.. On the other hand I do like to engage in reasoning when both parties are mutually willing to engage, in light of the Word of God. I do not believe reasoning and debating are the same thing but polar opposites.

I am not a fan or supporter nor do I put much trust or stock in relying on ones human understanding, education, eloquence, or "logic" to discern spiritual things.

While I will admit logic may have a part in understanding God and scripture I believe that spiritual logic comes after a divine/spiritual revelation, awakening, regeneration. God putting His Spirit within us.

Example, the Gospel did not make sense to me when I was lost, but now that I am saved, it makes perfect sense. Gods words are spirit and they are truth which the world, lost, and unregenerate cannot understand, discern, or interpret.

Now you have to forgive me because I am one of those people who knows what I want to say in my head but I am not real good in getting it from there to paper or the keyboard.

So as I was reading through some of the LF's, I could not get away from this scripture:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

For me when I was reading through the examples It appeared to me that the points they were making really appeal or rely on ones own human logic and understanding. Why would a Christian need a LF Chart when they have the Holy Spirit and the Word of God?

We all know people who have made a mental ascent and acknowledged the Gospel in their own head but it went no further. Meaning it never made it to the heart, there was no change in direction, no turning from sin, just a mental, logical, acknowledgement of Christ.

So when dealing with people saved or not, logic, mine or theirs, is not where I am putting my hope in ministering, discussing, or reasoning truth. I am trusting in the power of the Holy Spirit for ME first to say what He wants me to say in the right Spirit and for others that He open their heart and understanding granting us both His wisdom and understanding from above.

As I did a further search on LF's because I have never heard such a term, it appears that debate and argument were prevalent in many of the links, as well as, Colleges and Universities hosting various discussions on LF. I was amazed at the amount of links on this subject, but things attached to worldly education or institutions are to me, humanistic, teaching and relying on human intellect and logic to decipher or discern and not on the Holy Spirit.

Now I may be missing the target by miles when it comes to this topic and I normally do not like to say anything when I do not fully understand a topic either.

But my take away summation is that if people are using LF intentionally or not, to make a point or disprove a point, I see it as fleshly and of no benefit when it comes to discerning spiritual things.

If we are relying on our own skills to debate and argue truth like some of the sites suggest, I believe that to be rooted in flesh and pride and not in the Holy Spirit and wisdom.

Anyway, not sure if my point really made it to the keyboard or not but I am basing my thoughts on Pauls words in 1 Corinthians 1 & 2.

Blessings to You Sister


S
sermonindex

I do not think there was any heresy or anything bad in the statements themselves, but this thread was the effort of the flesh to do "good" I regret it.

S
sermonindex

David I read your post after I posted mine. I see nothing wrong with any website logic and other stuff, but Gary helped me to realize that that this is not how we fight our daily Christian fights.
It goes much better with God.

T
tonysmith

I think you'll find I was referring to the weakness in our reasoning where satan was targeting. Didn't he try the same technique with Jesus in the desert.
I did go to public school yes, I learnt much there as we all did when we went to school. Jesus went to school too.
Its our willingness to embrace a logic and reasoning that allows us to have what we want which is the danger area.
The desire in the garden of Eden was the dangled carrot of '' you will be like God if you eat of this tree'' and ''surely God didn't actually mean what he said''
Its a tad like your other thread where it talks of us trying to be like Jesus rather than letting Jesus be who he is through us. WEe would prefer to be like him and not actually him.
Perhaps my statement that it was human logic and reason that opened the door for satan was incorrect, as you have pointed out. What I should have said is that the weakness in human reason and logic is what opens the door to satan which is what I failed to put across.
It would be true to say, in my humble opinion, that we tend to accept any reasoning and logic that lines up with our desires. This opens the door for all manner of deception and falsehood, hence, sin is crouching at your door and you must learn to master it comes true.
The strategy of Satan in Eden is a fascinating subject when looked at in the right way. Wasn't the temptation to be like God the very same desire satan himself had?
the result of the fall was a heightened sense of self awareness.
God also says elsewhere in scriptures, ''come, let us reason together'' (Isaiah 1: 17-19 Therefore he will talk to us with reason.

With regards to weather humans or the spirit of God taught me anything then I would refer to Daniel 1:17. ''To these four young men God gave knowledge and understanding of all kinds of literature and learning. And Daniel could understand visions and dreams of all kinds.'' So then, if we are able to take hold of anything that is taught to us by humans then for that I also thank the holy spirit of God for enabling me to do so. You cannot separate the two.
Similar to Luke 24 - 45 '' Then he opened their minds so they could understand the scriptures'' So if we do understand the scriptures then even that is the grace of God upon us.
The story of Nebuchadnezzar is a fine example of how logic and reason can be taken away even when it has been given and then restored as and when the Lord sees fit to do so. Including the wisdom to build a house which also comes from God.
From what I have seen, Christians certainly do use logic and reason to argue against God. That is why we have so many preachers who can speak the scriptures just as well as satan and yet are still alive to the fleshly desires of this world. I suppose then that would raise the age old question of whether or not they are Christians anyway.
Job 39 talks of the ostrich, that God deprived her of wisdom and did not endow her with understanding. That means he could have done.
I know Paul used human wisdom in his life, thanks for reminding me though. I especially like the human wisdom he used when he finally came to the understanding that the flesh he lived in actually hates God and yet there he was living in it and having to endure the battles that go on. The conclusion was, ''what a wretched man am I''. Many Christians like to preach the words of these men and very few actually live like them. Even fewer have a sense of being an alien here on earth and a longing to die and be with God.
Eve used logic and reason to argue against God, I think at the time she may have been a lot closer to him than we are right now.

J
JFW

Good morning:)

Having awoken to a string of questions, I confes a sense of relief in brother David's general reply as it is far better than I could've said it and is a most gentle and earnest presentation of shared thoughts. Even the scripture he quoted was exactly the one that came to my mind and I feel confident that brother David addressed the points adequately and thoroughly if not already done by brothers Greg and Gary-

Tho out of respect I will answer you the best I am able.
The reason I hold out on these LF is that they are exactly what I used against Christians for years (close to 20) to logically dismantle their attempts to minister the gospel to me. I was very adept at it and being equipped with these LF (tho I didn't use that term) I was honestly never really even pushed hard because they were so effective at debasing my opponents position (in my mind) and as such suffered the fate of all natural men which is to believe in me, my own resoning. The architect of my ego had built a belief system that had become a quite comfortable bed from which my spiritual slumber wasn't easily roused. It wasn't until I really needed what I believed to be true and supportive that I discovered that it was a house of lies and it crumbled under its own weight as I attempted to lean on it for support. You see I discovered, quite painfully, that these were vain imaginings that lacked substance and tho I believed in them and carefully assembled them, they were just my pride wearing dif masks. Tho when in a freefall I cried out to the God of Israel, not knowing what else to do, and He came!!!:))) He in His mercy came and rescued me from the tyranny of my own pride. He delivered me and required of me a gloriously humiliating public confession and repentance and then I began to experience the freedom more and more as He revealed other areas I had trusted in that now I repented of. He placed my feet on the solid ground of faith, which He Himself gave me. He put a song of hope in my heart and hummed the melody as it were till I could sing along with Him the praises of my King. He was so gentle and treated me so tenderly that when I realized I had be proactively His enemy I broke again, tho this time it was the very foundations of my being and like Job- I abhorred myself and repented in dust and ashes. And from that day to this He has continued to be patient and merciful to me, ever faithful to steer me back to His Son when I stray.
So dear sister I hope you can see the contrast between cold, impersonal logic and the warmth of my loving saviour. For me they are worlds apart. And because I have personally witnessed lost peoples utilize these very LF to pridefully remain in bondage I am weary of them. Tho I do see that you dear sister are sincere in your attempts to quell the biting and devouring that takes place here on SI and elsewhere and I applaud your desire if not your chosen course of action.

It has been said that logic and reason stand as the "guards" of the heart,... But I ask, are the security guards keeping unholy things out or are the really prison guards keeping a person in bondage under the guise of "protecting" them?

S
sermonindex

This thing just occurred to me: Not long time ago I had a discussion with a Christian Lady. I was sort of in a state of anger and frustration and she was trying to counsel me. I kept bringing up more and more "righteous" arguments. In that moment I was not able to see whether they were truly righteous. At one point she said to me that I brought in a "red herring" argument. I was further hurt by her statement, I did not know what a red herring was. I did not feel any love or compassion coming from her...
I realize now that slapping someone with a logical fallacy truth even though it would be truth, does not help the person or the situation, it is not speaking truth in love.
I understand that we are not supposed to tell this truth straight to the person as we also don't say "you have a demon" or "you have a sin" unless the Holy Spirit leads us so.
I apologize for failing to speak truth in love.

D
docs

In those comments I made to you about that website I was trying to be a bit conciliatory after misreading some of your original comments. I never felt you were whole heartedly endorsing the website but just pointing out certain things you had seen there. It wasn't altogether bad and I wasn't whole heartedly endorsing all that is there and the spirit of the site. So there's no problem. You are a person very strongly committed to the Lord. That's very plain to see.

A closing comment. Derek Prince was an exalted professor and teacher of LOGIC at one of Britain's higher institutions of learning. He began to read the Bible and couldn't make heads or tails of it. Then when he got saved he always testified that he found the Bible to be the most logical book he ever read. He said among other things that the book of Romans is a masterpiece of Spirit inspired logic that ranks at the very top of literature this world has ever produced!

T
tonysmith

Well David,
after reading your post it made perfect sense and to be honest, the fact that you considered much before posting shines through in your measured response.
Maybe you have just taught me a lesson to slow down before I respond to anything on here.
I am always aware of the absence of expression of voice on these forums and it takes a good level of insight to carefully weigh the heart of the writers.
Wish I could have read your post before I posted my own.

S
sermonindex

Thanks JFW for sharing your story, I understand your point.
I appreciate your care and effort.
Thanks Tonysmith.

Here is my take:
Logic and reasoning is a gift of God it is not bad and it is not responsible for our sin and lack of love but we are.
Logic and love are not exclusive to each other but work together for the glory of God.

With the rest I agree.

God bless you

B
brothagary

Some wisdom there in the last four post brothers and sister ,,verry edafing ,and gentile ,keep it up !!!

B
brothagary

Last Six post i should say

S
sermonindex

We use logic to examine everything and compare it to God's truth which is the final authority.

Truth inherently does not have contradictions, while lies are full of contradictions.

sister,

I actually believe that the Word of God defies logic and rather is the authority before it. So our logic must bow to God's ways which are "not" our ways.

1 Corinthians 2:14 New International Version (NIV)

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

If we use logic as our starting point to discern God's word we end up pre-supposing our human understanding and ways. Now of course God uses logic and language and metaphors that we can grasp and understand, but overall the ways of the Lord go beyond what we can grasp, think or understand.

That is why the Scriptures are not able to be understand purely from the carnal mind but from revelation by God by the Spirit. We cannot just study the scriptures to come to all truth but they must be revealed by God's Holy Spirit.

So logic does have its place but what is much more important is hearing the voice of God.

John 10:27 New International Version (NIV)

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

S
sermonindex

"he (Derek Prince) found the Bible to be the most logical book he ever read."

I always thought so too. Maybe because I've read Derek Prince books as a baby christian and he must have pointed it out in one of them.

"I never felt you were whole heartedly endorsing the website"
Well, some took it as if it was recommended as a bible. I brought it up as an illustration only. The spirit of the website I didn't understand till later.

S
sermonindex

I took it for exactly what you said, Tozsu. We should not use LF's, and we should know how to detect them which will keep us from using them or falling into LF traps. In short, we should not use worldly means for discussing scripture or the things of God.

Many people love to debate in forums for the sake of debating. I read a paper online where one person actually lay out quite well how that Christian forums are demonic. I need to find his paper because it was quite convincing and I could personally understand where he was coming from. Many forums are demonic (if you have perused any besides SI), and sometimes on SI it has gotten quite nasty. Forums do not reflect real life at all. As people in real life, hide their true feelings and just shun you instead. I don't think people would talk to one another in real life as they sometimes do in forums. But, maybe I am wrong. "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh". Mt 12:34

Your opening post said it quite well:

"I am very saddened that these type of logical fallacies abound in the SI forum. (The most easily detectable ones are straw man, and black or white) The result for me is that after reading some of the posts I get feelings of confusion, frustration, being tricked, empty, defiled, depleted, exhausted, angry, oppressed, bullied, beaten up. Logical fallacies are tools of deceit and used here to defend someone's position. We know that the truth does not need unfair ways to be protected..."

I think it is good to warn everyone to be aware that forums can be dangerous places. My understanding is that you are only trying to persuade us not to use worldly means in searching and discussing the scriptures with one another.

S
sermonindex

"If we use logic as our starting point to discern God's word"

I always said that Gods truth is the starting point.

I think we need to define logic so both of us can understand the same thing by that word.

Logic is a tool, a method, a way of thinking, a tool can not be a starting point.

To illustrate: god's word is a field and we work on this field with a spade that is logic.


When we are in the spirit we still have and operate logic. Logic is not carnal or spiritual, it is neutral. Think of it as it was math.

With math we can design bombs or build bridges. The design activity usually is the strongest during wars. Should we abolish math? Math is not responsible. We are.

I said this before: with bad premises the same logic brings bad result, and with good premises the same logic brings good result

logic is like a mathematical formula that calculates for example the perimeter of a house. If good measurements were inputed into that formula the result is good, if bad measurements are inputed the result is bad.

That's how I understand it.


T
tonysmith

I find the use of LF's fairly helpful when they are used against me directly. Whether on purpose or inadvertently.
The old saying that Iron sharpens Iron is true.
I was watching a debate between a Christian preacher and an Islamic scholar. The level of mind controlling comments, questions and even facial expressions was fascinating stuff.
In the end the conclusion must be that if someone can be argued into the kingdom of God they can be argued out of it.
Personally, I don't think any amount of knowledge or wisdom will help when going into a situation where you could actually lose your life, it seems to go out of the window at times like that. In my own experience, the two occasions where I was convinced I was about to die, all I can remember is the fear mixed with the excitement of I might be actually standing in front of Jesus in the next couple of minutes. Sometimes, there comes a situation where all your left with is complete trust in him either way.
When the Lord says to stand firm and everything is screaming run, its at those times I am thinking I am either a man of God or completely insane. Then I am fighting the LF's inside my own head.

S
sermonindex

Logic and reasoning are very similar and I believe when one is born-again his/her reasoning capabilities take a sharp turn for the better. Afterall, they now have a love for the truth and are empowered by the Spirit to think clearly and in godly ways. This improved, Spirit-led reasoning spills over into every area of our lives.

The Bible does not use the word logic, but does use "reason" and "reasoning" in a great many places.

I believe the Lord gives us wisdom and discernment for spiritual reasoning and non-spiritual reasoning with everyday tasks.

S
sermonindex

by Julius21 on 2016/7/15 10:43:38

"I took it for exactly what you said, Tozsu. We should not use LF's, and we should know how to detect them which will keep us from using them or falling into LF traps. In short, we should not use worldly means for discussing scripture or the things of God."

Julius, No.
This thing was born not from love but frustration. I finally get it why these methods are ungodly. I can foresee the paranoia, finger pointing and suffocating atmosphere that this thing can bring on for the very reason that it was not born from love and God was not in it. Not to mention that the person who is doing it the most will not be bothered at all. The fruit is that people will take their eyes off Jesus and start to concentrate on sin, not even theirs but on others' and as a result they loose their freedom. Towards the end of this thread I realized that you can't say to someone with love "you committed a LF". You see the the whole thing lacks a very important element: self sacrificing love. Meaning that when I am frustrated I should seek consolation from God and after God healed my wounds my actions will be concentrated not to escape myself but to love and save others. What I did was to seek consolation from the forum which it can not give. Those who are constantly being healed by God endure much, more than anyone can expect and that makes things move to the right direction.

Some time ago I was under the influence of a controlling person. I looked up on the internet all the tricks how to get free from these people. After reading these worldly advises I always felt empowered, but after a while I realized that the more "free" I feel the less I am capable to love that person. The whole process turned more and more self serving. Had I found biblical advice instead I would have been better off.
Maybe a quick look at that worldly advice will not hurt but wisdom should be drawn from God.
Thanks everyone for the advice, and please forgive my foolishness.
Julius, I hope you understand this.

D
dfella

Zsuzsanna:

I am grateful that God has you so grounded and that you are comfortable sharing and encouraging here on SI. I have been very blessed by your posts and input as well as many of the other sisters here.

Thanks for bringing up this topic as this discussion has truly blessed me. I believe that most of us here have been brought here for a reason. Some discussions have not gone so well in the past and sometimes our passion and zeal for what we believe to be true can come off as unloving, critical, prideful, etc.. But I believe that the majority of us are all still works in progress and that God will complete the work He has begun in us.

Today, I am thankful, truly thankful, I don't post much because of a very hectic schedule and when I read the posts, prayer requests, updates, and topics I do take them to heart and ponder if, when, and what God may have me to say, and then someone says it. Then I realize how truly AWESOME and wonderful God is.

So thank you and the brothers for keeping this thread civil, understanding, and loving. I've said this before I am thankful for SI, I grieve when discussions go south and I know I have stepped on some toes as well but my heart is to never discourage, condemn, or leave anyone without hope.

I appreciate everyone here and I pray that the other sisters feel that this is a safe place to come and share their burdens, thoughts, and heart.

I know I owe a couple of apologies to some brothers here and would like to do that in a personal email.

God Bless You Guys and Gals,
BD

S
sermonindex

I see exactly what you are saying, Zsuzsanna.

Thank you for explaining it so clearly.

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