Are these 2 teachings the same or are they different?
I see total depravity as having no morals at all whereas dead and sinful still has morals but the spirit is dead to God but the soul can still will to do good to a certain extent but has the inability to repent on its own unless God convicts to repentance.
Thoughts?
How is total depravity different than just depravity? If it is just depravity do you still have some morals?
How do you define morals? Isn't it subjective?
Morals can be relative but that absolute reality goes back to who God is.
Total depravity and depravity are probably the same thing. Depravity being a more sanitized version if that is possible.
Something I am trying to reconcile is that there are some people who seek to do good to others but who have not been born again. How does depravity fit in those situations or is it just the fact that they are separated from God by their sin? Depravity would not seek the doing of good. Or do I have a wrong definition?
You have the wrong definition ,traditionally speaking
What is the correct definition?
Total depravity (also called radical corruption, or pervasive depravity) is a theological doctrine derived from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.
It is advocated to various degrees by many Protestant confessions of faith and catechisms, including those of some Lutheran synods,[1][2] and Calvinism.[3][4][5][6] Arminians, such as Methodists, hold to depravity, albeit not in the same way as the Reformed.[7][8]
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In opposition to Pelagius, who believed that after the fall people are able to choose not to sin, Augustine of Hippo argued that since the fall all humanity is in self-imposed bondage to sin. All people are inescapably predisposed to evil prior to any actual choice, and unable to not sin.[9] Free will is not taken away in the sense of the ability to choose between alternatives, but people are unable to make these choices in service to God rather than self.[10] Thomas Aquinas also taught that people are not able to avoid sin after the fall, and that this entailed a loss of original righteousness or sinlessness, as well as concupiscence or selfish desire. Duns Scotus, however, modified this interpretation and only believed that sin entailed a lack of original righteousness. During the Protestant Reformation, the Reformers took Scotus's position to be the Catholic position and argued that it made sin only a defect or privation of righteousness rather than an inclination toward evil. Martin Luther, John Calvin and other Reformers used the term "total depravity" to articulate what they claimed to be the Augustinian view that sin corrupts the entire human nature.[11] This did not, however, mean the loss of the imago Dei (image of God). The only theologian who argued that the imago Dei itself was taken away and that the very substance of fallen humanity was sin was Matthias Flacius Illyricus, and this view was repudiated in the Formula of Concord.[12]
John Calvin used terms like "total depravity" to mean that, despite the ability of people to outwardly uphold the law, there remained an inward distortion which makes all human actions displeasing to God, whether or not they are outwardly good or bad.[12] Even after regeneration, every human action is mixed with evil.[13] Later Calvinist theologians were agreed on this, but the language of the Canons of Dort as well as the 17th-century Reformed theologians which followed it did not repeat the language of "total depravity", and arguably offer a more moderate view on the state of fallen humanity than Calvin.[12]
A form of the doctrine of total depravity, although not identical to the Calvinist position, was affirmed by the Five articles of Remonstrance, by Jacobus Arminius himself, and by John Wesley, who strongly identified with Arminius through publication of his periodical The Arminian and also advocated a strong doctrine of inability. wikki
All offspring of Adam are born wicked, bearing the devil's character. Some people, by natural means e.g. temperament, proper parenting/upbringing, education, religious instruction etc may become well behaved i.e. moral.
Hence, it is possible for unsaved people to appear moral. It is feasible that a society with many such people will be civilized and even comely to the human eye. Think of past great civilizations.
As humanity rapidly approaches the end of time, those aforementioned natural means of refinement are increasingly being cast off and we see humanity with Satan's unmistakable imprint clearer and clearer as the days run close.
Rather then a moral issue, I think the difference is that ,or ther forms of depravity teach that a sinner can stil come to God ,with out the means of a special outward grace , where as total depravity teaches it is not only impossible, but a sinner natural hates God and refuses to come to him ....
Sinners can do good deeds , but from a wrong motive ,which stains the good deed,,,,..
There many motives ,
Guilt
Humanism
Pride
Low self esteam
What a man does ,it will come back to him
If I do good ,then maybe some might be there to help me if a need help
Any good deed must be done so that God gets glory of some sort ,lest it be sin ,,,what is not of faith is sin , the bible says so ...
Wesleyan view ,which I disagree with ,says that man can't come to God in his natural state, but God grants evey man a measure of grace ,so that if a man wants to come to God he can .....
It's helpful to stay with bible language. Where does the Word depravity come from in the bible or is it man's redefinition of a human condition related to the fall?
Better not use the word trinity either then
But, I think you get my point.
Instead of Spirit and flesh, we now also have two natures.
Words mean something. Trinity just means 3. It does not redefine the number 3, it is synonymous with the number 3.
Man is a rose in a vase decaying, it looks alive, appears alive but it's in the truest sense dead and completely incapable of reattaching itself to the source of life.
We do not live for 80 years we decay for 80 years. We simply have a longer decay timeline than the decaying rose in the vase. But we are equally dead in the animated graveyard called the world.
Every single act of an unsaved person from the cradle to the grave is from a source of death and while it may seem noble or good to other men is totally corrupt to the eyes of God. Total depravity. You must be born again.
Marc mc
Brothers,
I have many questions on this, but an easy/obvious one is;
How does one explain Enoch in relation to this hypothesis/doctrine?
Divine revelation and sovereign grace. He was shown his true condition, shown the path back to life, was enable to accept and receive it and empowered to walk it out. Exactly like us.
Marc mc
Thanks brother Marc,
Can you please point me to the scriptures stating that?
Romans chapters 1-8
The day I was born again I received large portions of the book of Ecclesiastes by revelation and I did not own a bible. Enoch was shown the Gospel because there is no other way under heaven that we can be saved.
Brother if you feel somehow Enoch had some form of goodness or ability in himself I respectfully share it's a fools errand. He was as corrupt as any man who ever lived. Jesus Himself said born of woman there is none greater than John the Baptist and he knew he needed to be baptized by and look onto the Lord as his savior.
Marc mc
by marcmc on 2016/8/3 9:49:22Divine revelation and sovereign grace. He was shown his true condition, shown the path back to life, was enable to accept and receive it and empowered to walk it out. Exactly like us.
Marc mc
Exactly, Marc. Enoch received revelation and was justified by faith because he obeyed that revelation. It is the only way with God. There is no other way to have righteousness of God accounted for you. Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation HE HAD THIS TESTIMONY, THAT HE PLEASED GOD.
Enoch did something that pleased God. He walked in faith before Him. Enoch's actions were a direct result of his faith and the way he walked before God was the evidence that his faith was genuine.
You wrote; "brother if you feel somehow Enoch had some form of goodness or ability in himself I respectfully share it's a fools errand. He was as corrupt as any man who ever lived. Jesus Himself said born of woman there is none greater than John the Baptist and he knew he needed to be baptized by and look onto the Lord as his savior."
I never suggested anything of the sort I simply asked for the scriptures so I could test the spirit who is speaking.....
No need to jump to conclusions or become defensive I was simply inquiring as to the scriptural basis for your statement-
JFW, that is why I said "if". If not then no harm.
I mentioned it because I run into this error so much with it's devastating consequences. The real condition of man is the start point for everything else. It's the "you are here" circle on the directory at the mall. Get it wrong and not only will you not end up where you want but your not likely to figure out where are in the first place.
Is man 100% corrupted or 99% or less is the foundation of everything else that follows. Most debates among Christians can sooner or later be traced back to what a person believes about that question.
Marc mc
I think it comes down to two statuses.
With God
Without God
Rather than focus on the condition, focus on the source who we are deriving our character from.
Because our present condition is directly related to who our F(father) is.
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and WITHOUT GOD in the world:
Eph 2:13 BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
The absent of God in one's life is not man standing alone, but man being a child of the devil and the spirit of this world operating in man.
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, THE SPIRIT THAT NOW WORKETH IN THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the CHILDREN OF WRATH, even as others.
But children of who....the Devil because it is his spirit operating in them.
By faith we escape the Devil and his kingdom of darkness and now have the Spirit of God.
My point relates to the individual condition of man as a result of the fall. In other words if man is 100% corrupted then all is of Gods grace, if he is 99% or less, then man contributes something. I have found that these two positions continue in the formation of beliefs.
The thread as I understood is about depravity rather than two kingdoms.
Marc mc
Yes I understand your point and while it is well made, I (personally) cannot find this in scripture which is why I inquired about Enoch...
I understand also that you do in fact find the scriptures to state this and while respect that I cannot in clear conscience share in it.
But I do appreciate your responses and your time brother:)
Forgive me, what part can you not find in scripture?
Marc mc
Well honestly brother Marc I have no heart to debate a point- but am def open to learning:)
So I feel that if I were to say too much that it would require you to retort and I hope not to put you in that position by my answer so I'll be somewhat brief-
I cannot find where the scripture states we are born totally depraved or even a lil bit for that matter. I do understand and respect that you read the same passages but come to a dif conclusion. Tho yes I have many orthodox and reformed brothers who have clearly presented the shared perspective on this, I cannot with a clear conscience before God make the same confession as it says quite the opposite to me.
I hope this doesn't come of as contentious as that is not my intent at all, but like you and most of us on SI, I too have strong convictions regarding this nonetheless am open to learn-
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
I think this verse shows that Jesus is saying that a man with out the drawing graces of God cannot come to Jesus .
That in a nutshell ,is total deprivation,the inability to come to Christ in his natural state ..
But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
God must act upon the heart and concence of the fallen sons of Adam ,to help them see there sin and desern the truth of the gosple message ,other wise folly is all he sees ,and resistance is natural , God must also open the heart or renew the heart so that he can
A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
Fletcher,
I have a question; are you saying that Enoch and Elijah were outside the need of a Savior, and pleased God on their own merits, without sin?
Is not the Cross the proof of total depravity, lest Enoch and Elijah did not need the cross. They were not standing in the Cross of Christ, for it had not even been mentioned yet, except Mary's seed, (who can only be Jesus Christ) this secret mystery had not been revealed yet.
Colossians 1:26-27 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Enoch and Elijah must have been in sinless perfection with no need of a Savior. Is this what you are saying?
I am truly confused.
In Christ: Phillip
No dear brother by no means am I saying that and I apologize for not being more succinct, was simply seeking some scriptures from brother Marc.
I do confess that I do not hold to the doctrine that we are born "sinners" as I cannot square it with scripture without applying it (the doctrine) to scripture. I do however believe that we all sin and at that point become sinners and therefore need a Savior. Was just seeking brother Marc's position on this as he seems a well educated man and willing to share his wisdom:)
I'm short for time as its busy at work but I hope that helps to clarify without being contentious or derailing the thread.
Ecclesiastes 9:3 - Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Psalm 58
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
If it is true that the evil are estranged from the womb ,and also the hearts of the children of men are full of evil ,then these two verse would suggest that we are born in sin ,becaue we too are evil ..
Psalm 143:2 - Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you.
When we are born we become part of the living ,and if we have been declared unrighteous , then being born in sin is the natural result of the fall ..
Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
This vers also lends it self to the fact that that all in the unbelieving state , which is the natural state of humans from birth are not pure...
1 cor 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.
Children being unclean suggest that they are not holy as Paul says ,,the facts are they are sinfull weather they are responsible or not ,being unclean is contrasting to holiness,,,, for if one is not an unclean sinner,then one is holy and righeous ,and that children are not n Paul's eyes ..
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
What does "as soon as they be born" mean? What happens at the moment they are born that explains they have gone astray and why would that not apply to them being in the womb. The only difference when they are born is that they are outside the womb.
Babies, when they are born are neither in a "believing" or "unbelieving" state.
Are you saying babies are born with sin?
Yes
Ok, so babies are born depraved.
depraved (dɪˈpreɪvd)
adj
morally bad or debased; corrupt; perverted
Are they children of the devil at the point they are born or when they are in the womb? At which point do they belong to the Devil and are "by nature, children of wrath"?
That which is of the flesh is flesh, even from the womb they are estranged from God ,baring the the image of the man of dust ,the fallen image , wich is not the oridgnal state of Adam befor the fall under the power of coruption Paul calls children unclean in opposition to holy and sanctified ,due to the fact they are from natural fallen parents
Jesus was the only child born perfect sinless with no sin
Until the spirit is reborn ,the flesh still controls babies ,babies are not born pure holy creatours, no where does the bible say they are ...
Flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God because it is corruptible. Flesh in itself is not sinful. Flesh is only a container, it is amoral. The Bible says the flesh is earthly. It is the soul in the flesh which responds to the Spirit of God or the spirit of Satan. Our fleshly members can be "members of righteousness" if yielded to the Holy Spirit and they can be members of unrighteousness if yielded to the spirit of this world. Who is the "spirit" of this world?
Read this closely. Does it look like Paul is speaking about new born babies or talking about volitional men who are CHOOSING to walk a certain way and they know they are walking this way...after the lusts of the flesh?
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past YE WALKED according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had OUR CONVERSATION (way of living) in times past in the LUSTS OF OUR FLESH, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
If you believe babies are depraved and the children of wrath, do babies go to hell if they die after childbirth?
Just asking... Curious what you think. I find it interesting and won't debate. Just give you things to think about.
Reply To This Post |
Until the spirit is reborn ,the flesh still controls babies ,babies are not born pure holy creatours, no where does the bible say they are ...
So then, would you say babies go to hell if they die without Christ...being born-again? That is what your logic/statements are leading to.
Gotta go for now. Nice chatting with you.
No I don't think they go to hell ,they are not fully developed, there mind and concence need to be developed, in my opinion before they are held responsible for sinning against God and concence..
God bless
I thought we were talking about being a sinner and being depraved. Now, you have switched from the spiritual to the physical and talking about human development (mind, conscience, etc).
So, then they are not born spiritually depraved, perverted, corrupted before they make their first conscious choice to sin?
Not following you julius ,there's been no switch
We are born spirtual dead and depraved before we wilfully knowingly commit acualy sin
Be renew in the spirit of your mind Paul said that ,,,
I'm not following your conclusion,.
The only reason a child would be naughty lie and commit violence,is not becasue he decided to be come a sinner , but because he is born with a sinfull nature that is at enmity with God and is not subject to the law of God neither can it be ..
The body soul and spirit make up who we are ,and it has all been effected by the fall ,,the whole man from the womb is depraved
separated at birth by the Grace of God?
Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by His grace,
I believe that the Grace of God covers all of the ways of God. His ways are certainly not our ways unless it is the will of God by Grace which covers and surpasses all that we know or think. Was Paul a baby from his mother's womb? Ya think maybe Enoch and Elijah were in the same mind and will and Grace of God?
Are babies not in the manifold Grace of God as He see' fit to apply that Grace to whom He pleases.
In Christ: Phillip
I'm not following Philip,,,
Paul is saying that God gave him life ,when he was born ,and his calling and election was by grace ,according to his good pleasure .....
Is that what your saying ??
Isaiah 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
I am saying babies are under the Grace of God from and in the womb.
I fell from a two story window with a rotten screen that I pushed through when I was four months old. I landed between two steel pointed pickets of a fence and a man was driving by and saw it happening, he put me in the car and went to the hospital without even saying anything to my mother. He came back and told her that I was at the hospital and was OK, only knocked the breath out of me and bruised my belly.
I do believe that God is in control before the foundation and knew me even then. So I trust God to take care of babies that die and by His love and goodness has every hair on their bald heads numbered. We don't need to worry about the babies I need to worry about me. For I needed to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, born of a virgin, said who He was, was crucified, buried, rose on the third day, ascended into heaven, is sitting at the right hand of God in the heavenlies, and by the faith of the Son of God I am in Him and He in me, seated with Him.
Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
This goes a lot deeper than just life given. I am sure Paul was in Christ even before the world was created. Even John leaped in the womb when he heard Mary the mother of Jesus the Son of God of whom he, John was already the one to herald Him to the World.
Ephesians 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Predestinated to be children of God, son' to our Father.
Ephesians 1:12-14 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
By His Grace accepted in the beloved; Amen: Phillip
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I suppose the millions of aborted babies that have been sacrificed on the altar of moloch are all in hell.
Dear Jesus that I've been delivered from a theological system that believes in this. For I believe Jesus said that their angels always behold my Father who is in heaven.
Quote: """I suppose the millions of aborted babies that have been sacrificed on the altar of moloch are all in hell."""
Where does it say there are babies in hell? Babies could not know even why they are there. There are no babies in hell!!!!!
In Christ: Phillip
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Brother take it easy. I do not believe that. I was being a little sarcastic. I'm simply making the statement that some of our Calvinistic brethren would believe that or would have to believe that because their theological system dictates that.
The first point of Calvinism is total depravity. Calvinists would believe that an infant is born in sin. Consequently if that infant dies before they come to Christ they are reprobated to hell. Their theological system demands that they hold this view.
This is why Presbyterians comes up with a complicated theology to baptize infants. Thus they baptize infants if the parents are good Presbyterian Christians. That is the child is in the covenant. If that child dies in infancy then their parents believe that the child will go to heaven. I do not believe this either. That is that the baptism of infants will guarantee their acceptance into heaven.
I do believe in a great mercy of God is when infants die either in abortion or through other means. That child is taken into the arms of the Father.
Remember the child that was born to David and Bathsheba. God took that child. Even after David fasted and prayed. David said the child cannot come to me but I can go to him.
Jesus tells us that the angels of the children always behold His father who is in heaven.
Thus I believe the mercy of God is very precious and very great for those infants who die and have not to a conscience faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
However I may be one of the few that hold of this view in the forum.
For the record brother I am not a Calvinist. I used to be a hard core 5 point Calvinist. I believed that infants would go to hell if they did not come to Christ in conscience faith.
God delivered me from Calvinism. Consequently I do not hold to this view of total depravity that would send infants to hell.
Again I'm probably one of the few that hold this position in the forum.
Simply my thoughts dear brother.
by brothagary on 2016/8/3 23:10:46Not following you julius ,there's been no switch
We are born spirtual dead and depraved before we wilfully knowingly commit acualy sin
Be renew in the spirit of your mind Paul said that ,,,
I'm not following your conclusion,.
The only reason a child would be naughty lie and commit violence,is not becasue he decided to be come a sinner , but because he is born with a sinfull nature that is at enmity with God and is not subject to the law of God neither can it be ..
Didn't you say, "Jesus was the only person born perfect, sinless, with no sin?"
But he was born into a human body through a sinful person, Mary.
So, he was born into the same body that all men are born into.
The body is amoral, and only a container, tent for the soul.
So, you must not be saying that a human body is inherently evil and depraved.
That only leaves you with one choice that the soul of a person before they ever choose to sin, is inherently evil and depraved.
You say Jesus was born perfect, but doesn't Scripture attest that He lived a perfect, sinless life before His Father? In other words, when He was tempted, He never chose to sin and that by the Spirit of God which indwelt His body.
A baby, which is born, new out of the womb into a body just like Jesus had, has not chosen to sin, yet?
That leaves you with one choice, that the soul of a man, is inherently evil and depraved, even though he has never chosen to sin. Yet, where is the sin-source (Satan) in all of this. So far, you have man standing alone as an independent self as if he is a human-devil.
I believe all men are born without the Spirit of God and will invariably choose to sin because of Satan not because they are born able to function as their own sin source independent of Satan who is the source of sin. Jesus was conceived by the Spirit of God into the same body as you possess but chose rather to obey His Father God and not Satan, the father of lies.
When Satan, occupies and indwells the spirit of fallen man, he brings in his characterÂ
of sin and selfishness. Human beings are not inherently sinful never have been and never will be. Evil or sinful character is not inherent to or intrinsic in human beings.Â
Yes, we are identified as "sinners” (Rom. 5:19) based on our spiritual condition and identity because of the spiritual presence of Satan, but that is his character not ours. The predominant teaching of the church from a biblical understanding detoured in the 4th century when Augustine decided that fallen man was inherently and innately sinful due to Adam's sin. When you read Calvin you are basically reading Augustine and Calvin did not hide the fact that he believed much of what Augustine wrote.
Â
Augustine was basically saying that fallen man, being inherently evil can function as an independent self to produce sin which would mean that man is born a human-devil. The label placed upon that terrible teaching is called "original sin". I do not believe in "original sin" Augustinian/Calvinistic sense that has been propagated in the Church to a large degree. I do believe in what the Eastern Orthodox church refers to as "ancestral sin", where the original sin-action of the first man (Adam) who is the ancestor of us all bore consequences that affected the spiritual condition of all mankind in that man will be occupied and indwelt by the sin source of Satan. Man is not inherently sinful, otherwise as I commented before, he would be born a human-devil. The death consequence of Adam brought an estranged relationship between God and man and Satan became the necessary alternative source and we are identified with this adversary, this opponent of God, and as such, we are even reckoned as "enemies of God" (Rom 5:10, Col 1:21), as the "one having the power of death (Heb 2:14) is spiritually operative within fallen man.
That is dilemma of mankind. They cannot function as an independent self apart from God or Satan. Again, humans are not born little human-devils and cannot standalone as a 2nd alternative source of sin to Satan.
"Didn't you say, "Jesus was the only person born perfect, sinless, with no sin?"
But he was born into a human body through a sinful person, Mary.
So, he was born into the same body that all men are born into."
Jesus had no human father as all other men do.
The seed determines the nature.
All living things have this in common.
No deep theological or biological truth about this. It's elementary!
I agree with Julius21 on this.
Was Adam or Eves "flesh" evil, sinful, or somehow sinful before the fall?
Did their "flesh" change after the fall?
Jesus Christ's "flesh' was 100% human "flesh".
How could it not be?
Do not forget that he was the the "LAST ADAM" who had to be like the first Adam.
Now while Jesus was of Adam's race according to the flesh yet He did not inherit Adam's nature. This alone will prove that sin is not transmitted through the flesh. It is transmitted through the blood and not the flesh, and even though Jesus was of the "Seed of David according to the flesh" this could not make him a sinner.
God has made of ONE BLOOD ALL THE NATIONS of the earth. Sinful heredity is transmitted through the blood and not through the flesh. Even though Jesus, therefore, received His flesh, His body from a sinful race, He could still be sinless as long as not a drop blood of this sinful race entered His veins. God must find a way whereby Jesus could be perfectly human according to the flesh and yet not have the blood of sinful humanity. That was the problem solved by the virgin birth.
ORIGIN OF THE BLOOD
It is now definitely known that the blood which flows in an unborn babies arteries and veins is not derived from the mother but is produced within the body of the foetus itself only after the introduction of the male sperm. An unfertilized ovum can never develop blood since the female egg does not by itself contain the elements essential for the production of this blood. It is only after the male element has entered the ovum that blood can develop. As a very simple illustration of this, think of the egg of a hen. An unfertilized egg is just an ovum on a much larger scale than the human ovum. You may incubate this unfertilized hens egg but it will never develop. It will decay and become rotten, but no chick will result. Let that egg be fertilized by the introduction of the male sperm and incubation will bring to light the presence of LIFE IN THAT EGG. After a few hours it visibly develops. In a little while red streaks occur in the egg denoting the presence of Blood. This can never occur and does never occur until THE MALE SPERM HAS BEEN UNITED WITH THE FEMALE OVUM. The male element has added life to the egg. Life is in the blood according to scripture, for Moses says:
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood." (Leviticus 17:11). "For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof." ””Leviticus 17:14
Since there is no life in the egg until the male sperm unites with it, and the life is in the blood, it follows that the male sperm is the source of the blood, the seed of life. Think it through.
The above (which I agree with) is found here:
http://jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_MR_DeHaan/Chemistry/04.htm
Jesus therefore did not inherit a fallen nature from Mary in spite of the fact that Mary was sinful for the reasons given above. Interesting, no?
Amen Julius. Interestingly Augustine changed position when Pelagius challenged him that the man in Romans 7:22 that he delighted in the law of God in the inward man, could not be an unsaved man which was Augustine's previous position, to the position that the man was saved and thereby allowing sin into the church.
Life starts when the DNA of the egg and seed join.
Forgot to add that the man could not be unsaved according to Augustine's theology of total depravity.
Amen to tuc, savannah (elementary), and Brenda (Romans 7:22).
The S(s)pirit determines the nature or character.
I can understand how Calvin was so heavily influenced by Augustine. He was raised in the Catholic church and even went to the same university (a few years apart) that Ignatius Loyola (founder of the Jesuits) went to. Many have said, when you read Calvin you are reading Augustine and Calvin never tried to hide the fact that he believed much of what Augustine wrote about. But, this error, introduced into the Church around the 4th century, has provided very good 'cover' to Satan and isn't that how Satan operates? He conceals himself. The Church has never really developed a good theology of Satan and his workings and that is why today, many believe man can stand alone as an independent self (and Satan continues to operate in the background/under cover).
1 Cor 3:16-17, "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
1 Cor 6:19-20, "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."
Rom 8:11, "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."
Yes Amen!!
Again you are more articulate than I, tho we share the same heart on this:)
I might add to your point that even the prophecy of the coming Christ clearly states this in Isaiah 7:
15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Even Jesus had to choose good and there was a period of time before He would know to do so~
2 Cor. 4:7, "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us."
Our bodies are just clay pots or vessels.
Even the facts of the Fall and our consequent condition are rarely known. Few seem to have grasped that man is not just an independent self doing as he pleases and doing it in his own strength. He never has been this. He has always been indwelt by a god. He has always had an inner union-to whom? "Greater is He that is in you (the believer) than he that is in the world." Who is this second "he" in the world, if not the Satanic spirit? And he is actually named a few verses later (1 John 4:6): "Hereby know we the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error".
Look at the great passage descriptive of the condition of fallen humanity Ephesians 2:1-3-which includes that statement, "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience"; or the other, "in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds . . . ." The fact that is hidden from many is that sin is essentially a person, just as holiness is a Person.
Holiness is the "Spirit of holiness" (Rom. 1:4), the Holy Spirit. The human is the container of the Divine Person, all goodness, love, righteousness, wisdom, power, holiness and the rest are, not we, but HE in us, "Jesus Christ who has been made unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, redemption". But the opposite is equally and logically true.
Sin is not a thing, but an indwelling person, the spirit of fear, the spirit of bondage, the evil spirit, the spirit of the world, the spirit of anti-Christ. Sins are that spirit expressing himself through the human faculties and appetites, just as holiness and love are the Other Spirit expressing Himself through the same channels. Thus a pregnant word is spoken of the first sin recorded after the Fall-the sin of Cain, when John says that he "was of that wicked one and slew his brother". Precisely, it was not primarily Cain that was the murderer, but he whom Jesus called "a murderer from the beginning"-through Cain.
It is that we humans are basically containers, and nothing else. I have already referred to our misconception of the function of the human self, and here it is. Through the self-sufficiency we inherited from the Fall, we instinctively regard ourselves as something very much more than containers.
"Vessels" the Bible calls us; it was the first description given by the Ascended Christ of the most dynamic Christian of history, the Apostle Paul: "He is a chosen vessel unto Me": just a vessel, that was all. Were all the dynamism, the wisdom, the revelations, the passionate love, the self-sacrifice then attributes of the vessel, or of Him whom it contained? And Paul himself went on to call us all "earthen vessels". Not even tin cans, but nearer to crack-pots! Humbling, self-emptying, an offense to any man not enlightened to facts by the Spirit of God. But let us get it plain, and without equivocation. If God is the All, and we are merely the means of His Self-manifestation, is it not a fact that we must be just containers? "Christ is all and in all". "Temple" is another like metaphor, for a temple has no reason for existence except to house its god: "Ye are the temples of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them."
The point then is that a vessel or temple has only one function (and you will remember that we humans have a misconception of the function of the human self ). Activity is not the function of a vessel, but receptivity. Here we reach right down to the roots. Receptivity is the simplest, most child-like human function. In Bible terms, it is not works, but faith. But what we have to re-learn is that receptivity is not a function, but the function. All other functions are by- products.
The whole of life is a parable of this. Is not everything some form of the self-giving of God? And do we not totally live by what we receive-food, air, the floor boards beneath our feet, the clothes on our backs? And in most cases something has died to give us life. Life is surely based on receptivity, and the Bible word for receptivity is faith. Can anything be simpler? How wonderfully God has made us: to live, spiritually and materially, by exercising a capacity which is as near as possible to doing nothing-just receiving. Not reaching up to drag things down, but things poured upon us in such abundance that we just open our mouths and they are filled: and the gift of gifts we receive is Himself.
Well said, tuc.
SIN IS NOT A THING BUT AN INDWELLING PERSON, the spirit of fear, the spirit of bondage, the evil spirit, the spirit of the world, the spirit of anti-Christ. SINS ARE THAT SPIRIT EXPRESSING HIMSELF THROUGH THE HUMAN FACULTIES and appetites, just as holiness and love are the Other Spirit expressing Himself through the same channels.
Yes, I have said many times we were not created as independent selves but as derivative creatures, deriving our character from one of two spiritual beings, God or Satan. We are either in the state of "with God" or "without God" and without God means we are standing with Satan. We do not stand alone as a 3rd independent choice. Atheists think they can do that, but that is a great deception as they are standing with Satan and deriving their character from the god of this world.
We either abide in our Heavenly Father or abide in the "father of lies".
Thus a pregnant word is spoken of the first sin recorded after the Fall-the sin of Cain, when John says that he "was of that wicked one and slew his brother". Precisely, it was not primarily Cain that was the murderer, but he whom Jesus called "a murderer from the beginning"-through Cain.
Yes, Jesus always highlighted and exposed the source of sin in man.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, AND THE LUSTS OF YOUR FATHER YE WILL DO. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Julius, you wrote:
" But, this error, introduced into the Church around the 4th century, has provided very good 'cover' to Satan and isn't that how Satan operates? He conceals himself. The Church has never really developed a good theology of Satan and his workings and that is why today, many believe man can stand alone as an independent self (and Satan continues to operate in the background/under cover). "
very interesting.....and very precise.
"and isn't that how Satan operates? He conceals himself."
what was that? satan operates by....."concealing" himself?
if memory is correct, doesn't that thing conceal itself as "angel of light"?.....what about the dark one's servants?....do they do the same?.......do they CONCEAL themselves, and as what?
The downside of believing that man is not totally corrupt ( which simply means completely cut off from God and therefore dead) is the failure of this position.
Please indulge the rest of this post, it is not meant to be a negative but is said to demonstrate something.
We live in a time which presents the greatest need for God and the saving of souls possibly in history. Addiction and vice are epidemic, financial hardship is the norm, the worlds superpowers are on a collision course of destruction, everyone I know is totally exhausted physically, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world and on and on it goes.
With all this the church has the greatest glut of technology and teaching in history, we have the answers, salvation is free, God is in control of all events in real time ( according to some ), the fields are white and God himself does not want a single soul to go to hell. While I will suggest that more are going to hell in this time than any in history. Where is God and what is he waiting for?
Let me ask you here. Who wants God, who is getting saved in NA or Europe today. I live in Canada where God is not even on the map. What has happened in the US that a single book could be written about in the past ten years? What movement? What revival? What awakening? How many on here have led anyone to the Lord in the past year? when is Isreal going to be provoked to jealousy? The answer to all this of course is very simple yet extremely unpopular.
marcmc
you asked this my brother:
" when is Israel going to be provoked to jealousy?"
when some who wear crucifix's or cross's stop murdering Jews, over the last 1700 years.
Ok so why are the Jews so persecuted?
This is not a thread hijack it is connected
Marcmc
Being cut off from God does not equate to being corrupted and depraved as a new born infant.
Because of Adam's sin, we are estranged from God in a world where it is open season by the spirit of Satan to corrupt man (cause man to sin) which eventually happens.
When man is born, he is estranged from God. No getting around that. He needs to be brought nigh to God by the cross and born-again from above by the Holy Spirit.
While I disagree in that Adams rebellion was intentional and deliberate his hatred of God is locked into the nature of all descendants.
As to the second point just think of the scale of operation that Satan would have to engage in to be causing all men to sin. It's rediculous. Not to mention that by simply stopping the entire bible and every single end time event would become false prophesies.
You mentioned earlier that Satan somehow transferred sin to man. He simply tempted the woman once they lusted for independence and acted they originated their own rebellion and sin for mankind ( original sin) they did not inherit Satans sin, his remains his own.
We had this chat before, if Satan is in control of sin and man then all he ever had to do after the resurrection of Jesus was to sit down all the demons and say " don't ever touch, speak to or go near the Jews and keep all men and nations away from them. If he had just done that the temple would still be there, the Jews would be blessed, none of the Deuteronomy curses would have come to pass and the Bible would be a worldwide joke today. Now if I can think of that do you mean to tell me Satan 2000 years later still hasn't thought of it?
Marc mc
the flesh is earthly, it can't please God. It has no thoughts of the spiritual. Satan hates God and "locks" himself into each and every man through man's choice to be receptive to him instead of God (just like Adam and Eve).
No one said that "Satan transferred sin to man". Satan causes men to be receptive to him, who is the source of sin.
That is why Jesus wants us to receive Him, instead. If you receive Satan's lies as Adam and Eve did, you receive the spirit of this world, the father of lies. Tuc has provided those scriptures. Sin is a person not a packaged commodity that is given to everyone.
Same as Jesus is a Person who we receive.
John 1:12 But as many as RECEIVE HIM, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Man either receives the spirit of bondage (Satan and his minions) or the Spirit of Liberty (Holy Spirit) or adoption (again, Holy Spirit).
Rom 8:15 For ye have not RECEIVED THE SPIRIT OF BONDAGE again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
And again...
1Cor 2:12 Now we have received, NOT THE SPIRIT OF THE WORLD, BUT THE SPIRIT WHICH IS OF GOD; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Two choices:
Spirit of God
spirit of the world.
Simple and clear.
Adam created the spirit of the world no Satan.
The lust of the eyes (Eve) the lust of the flesh ( Eve) and the pride of life or self exaltation in independence of God ( Adam). These three sins were committed in the garden. Satan was simply the tempter.
Those three lusts that they committed in the garden are locked into the nature of all their descendants. The world of the first Adam. We are to live by the Life of the second Adam.
For the record I once believed exactly like you with a big bad devil.
But again I say all Satan ever had to do was leave the Jews alone and the bible would be a joke today. So why didn't he?
Marc mc
by marcmc on 2016/8/4 13:32:56Adam created the spirit of the world no Satan.
Never heard that before.
But, I have heard of this.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil...
John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with YOUR FATHER.
And this one:
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;
Sounds like Jesus is saying that the Pharisees (and by extension all unsaved men) are inextricably linked and influenced by their father (Devil).
"for the devil sinneth from the beginning."
"For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL."
Son of God was manifested to DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL.
For the record I once believed exactly like you with a big bad devil.
For the record Jesus and the Apostles talked a lot about the Devil's involvement in our lives (see scriptures above).
How can you ignore the 91 mentions of the Devil and Satan in the NT?
Anyway, nice chatting with you and nice to know your views. Fortunately, they don't hinder fellowship around the Lord.
But why would a being who according to you is behind every evil empire and every evil military leader spend thousands of years tempting and deceiving billions of people 24/7 not been smart enough to know that by simply leaving the Jews ( a few million people ) alone that every end time prophesy fails to come to pass.
Imaging trying to defend the bible in your hands if the Temple was still standing and 70 AD never happened? Rebuilt temple.....we still need the first one to be thrown down with not a brick upon another.
Marc mc
I don't know. Why did he crucify the Lord of Glory?
uh, maybe because he is deluded and self-deceived?
1Cor 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew:
FOR IF THEY HAD KNOWN IT,
THEY WOULD NOT HAVE CRUCIFIED THE LORD OF GLORY.
Satan does not have Holy Spirit so just because he can read the Word of God, doesn't mean he can understand it. Obviously, he blew it when he energized and influenced men to crucify Jesus.
1Cor 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
This would apply to anyone who does have the Holy Spirit, even the Devil.
Leave the Jews alone.
You don't really believe a person needs the Holy Spirit for that do you?
I'm always amazed how Satan is always presented as a mastermind or a total idiot.
marcmc
I am also amazed at many things.
He is neither an idiot or a being that knows the will of God as Jesus does and did.
2Cor 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are NOT IGNORANT OF HIS DEVICES.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve THROUGH HIS SUBTILTY, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye RECEIVE ANOTHER SPIRIT, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
I am amazed that you ignore all the scriptures where Jesus and the Apostles spoke of the Devil and revealed his character and attributes and workings. You do not provide any scriptures to back up your views of Satan.
Those versus all include his only device. Deception. When he is let out of the pit what does he do? Deceive. You offered a devil who is behind all evil activity of man! 7 Billion people! With an exponential birth explosion adding to it daily. Busy fella, no?
But that does not explain his activity in the earth concerning future actions he will make and as it would appear could act in a different way.
Julius I know what your saying I can go to a Pentecostal church 500 meters from my house and hear it every Sunday morning. I own about 40 books that say that over and over, I know all those versus and yet......why.....would.....he.....blunder on and on to a prerecorded end?
marcmc
That's wonderful, marc. I guess that concludes our discussion. Nice chatting with you. I learned a couple of things regarding your viewpoint.
you wrote this brother:
"For the record I once believed exactly like you with a big bad devil.
But again I say all Satan ever had to do was leave the Jews alone and the bible would be a joke today. So why didn't he?"
He's on the ropes! Marc, you will NOT get a straight answer about what he REALLY believes in.
I'm not looking to get in the middle of this as honestly like many things a fuller context of all the "proof-texts" being used at times would bring clarity, but I did think of the passages where Jesus cast out the demons & what they clearly knew about Jesus even before any man on earth (apart from Jesus) apparently did:
28And when he came to the other side, to the country of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men met him, coming out of the tombs, so fierce that no one could pass that way. 29And behold, they cried out, "What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?
They weren't too deluded on Jesus, who He was, what He came to do, etc. They may not have had it all figured out perfectly, but they knew quite a bit that was quite accurate on who He was, what He came to do, & what power He clearly had over them - long before any other man on earth knew.
And Honestly, in so many ways more and more I can see that the issue of Israel & the Jews has so many implications to the whole issue of man overall. And eschatology. And Grace. And election. Etc. And yes, as I always say, if the Jews are irrelevant in our day, Satan didn't get the memo. And these demons understood Jesus in His day, but those same spirits misunderstand and misdirect their vitriole hatred towards the Jews today? Hhhmmmmm....that seems illogical doesn't it?
Neil,
Either way brother, remember Grace...& humility. I lovingly implore you as a brother and a friend (who also must often remember these things). 😊
God Bless,
Jeff
Bro. Marc,
when one is writing, lets say, a comedy scene(entertainment industry).....the last big funny LINE, is called the "Button"......in the that tent-making job, the ability to craft a really GOOD "button" is prized......here's your button, after you realized the futility of an authentic discourse with the other poster, you "buttoned" it with a question THAT HAS an answer:
"and yet......why.....would.....he.....blunder on and on to a prerecorded end?"
The Jew, the cause of and the solution to all the problems of the world.
(reworded from an eposiode of a TV cartoon)
I mentioned the Jews only as a single example because it is obvious.
There are many other activities of Satan that by simply doing nothing. The Church, Christianity and the bible would today be a joke.
For the record I did not hijack the thread this still relates to what Adam did and the resulting depravity of man which is manifested as a HATRED FOR GOD! Man lusts with his eyes, lusts with his flesh and self exalts. That is his nature.
Do you think Adam and Eve are in heaven?
marcmc
you wrote:
"Neil,
Either way brother, remember Grace...& humility. I lovingly implore you as a brother and a friend (who also must often remember these things). 😊
God Bless,
Jeff"
I know, Jeff...I know.....and I don't write that as a "hateful blow-off"......Grace, Mercy, Love, Peace.......I LOVE those words.......I put "hate" in quotes, coz I don't even LIKE to use that word!
Then I read your second post:
(this grabbed me)
" And these demons understood Jesus in His day, but those same spirits misunderstand and misdirect their vitriol hatred towards the Jews today? Hhhmmmmm....that seems illogical doesn't it? "
i'll be still now, mayhap you venture an answer to your question Jeff?....
My mother died on 3 June this year, laid to rest 15 feet from my sitting porch, and I been asking God that question about my dear mother,(whilst grieving and crying) so your hypothetical question rings hollow to me.
Saints,
I feel this discussion has had its course and in the end we are not encouraging discussions on calvinism vs arminism, though parts of this discussion were not fully cemented on this.
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Thanks saints.
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