Sipping Saints - An outcry against the alarming spread of drinking among Christians -David Wilkerson

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise" (Proverbs 20:1).

This nation is fast becoming a sodden society of too many intoxicated citizens. Alcohol is now the modern golden calf, and millions of people, young and old, male and female, have been seduced by it.

The teetotaler, the prohibitionists, and all the others who have for years fought against this flood of booze have been laughed out of existence. We laugh to scorn those old-fashioned little ladies who went around smashing barrels of whiskey and shutting down bars and honky-tonks, and taking pledges of abstinence.

We liberated moderns have made it fashionable to drink. It is now considered sophisticated, urbane, cool - to drink socially. Try saying "No" to the airline stewardess who keeps pushing drinks at you from the time you get on the airplane till you deplane. "What do you mean, no drinks?" She looks at you as some kind of kook for refusing free drinks.

People are offended nowadays when you refuse their offer of a complimentary drink. They try to make you feel unneighborly for not joining them, or that you are putting on a "holier than thou" attitude. Even President Carter couldn't keep drinks out of the White House.

"Be not among winebibbers..." (Proverbs 23:20).

To me, the real tragedy is that so many who call themselves "Christian" are now drinking. I call them "sipping saints," because that is how it all begins - one sip at a time.

A recent poll revealed that 81% of all Catholics now drink and 64% of all Protestants. These shocking figures keep mounting higher each month. The permissive attitude toward social drinking is fast creeping even into the most conservative, evangelical church circles.

I have spoken at Charismatic conventions where thousands of "Spirit-filled" saints of God lifted hands in praise and adoration to God - and after being dismissed, numbers of them walk out into the parking lot, open their car trunks and pull out a couple six-packs and pass them around to fellow worshipers. Others order mixed drinks with their restaurant meals, in between the praise sessions. They return to speak with "pickled tongues."

"And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the Lord, neither consider the operation of his hands" (Isaiah 5:12).

The prophet Isaiah has a message for the entire Charismatic movement - in both Catholic and Protestant circles.

"God's people are in captivity to these things because of a lack of knowledge . . . But the Lord of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness" (Isaiah 5:13-16)..

The prophet Hosea said, ". . . wine and new wine take away the heart . . ." (Hosea 4:11).

This suggests that sipping saints have divided hearts.

Spirit-filled people lay claim to being "kings and priests" unto the Lord. The Bible emphatically states,

"It is not for kings to drink wine, nor for princes strong drink, lest they drink and forget the law . . ." (Proverbs 31:4,5).

The writer of Proverbs suggests happy, overcoming Christians don't need wine, that it is only for the depressed and dying.

"Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts" (Proverbs 31:6).

A fine Christian lady wrote to me saying:

"We are good church-going Christians. We love the Lord, and we see nothing at all wrong with serving wine in our home. We drink moderately, and our children are learning to drink under our supervision. They do not overindulge. We have never seen anyone drunk in our home.

"You are simply trying to make us feel guilty and are pushing your fundamentalist morals on us. We were not raised under the legalistic taboos like you evidently were. Frankly? sir, our drinking habits are none of your concern."

God bless that dear lady - but one of these days it will be my business. It starts becoming my business when those teenagers go out with their friends and get stoned.

Just today, one of my students, a converted alcoholic, told me how she became a drunkard. Her parents taught her how to drink moderately. At parties, birthdays, and when company came, everybody took a social drink. It was served at meals. She admired and loved her parents. They despised drunkenness, yet they had a bar in the house.

This young lady started going to teenage parties and began to drink socially with her crowd. That led to drinking in clubs. Soon she was getting stoned in parked vans. Finally, when problems began to pile up, she began to lean on wine heavily. She ended up in a mental institution, a hard-core alcoholic.

That same story is repeated to me over and over again from coast to coast. How many, many times I've heard it, "My parents were considered good Christians. They went to church. But we always served wine or beer at our house. My big brother drank moderately and he was my hero. I drank to be like my parents and big brother, but I couldn't handle it. But they made me think drinking was the thing all good people do."

Am I prejudiced? Narrow-minded on the subject? You bet I am! And I have reason to be. My own brother, a minister's son, started drinking beer moderately - just to be sociable with friends. He wound up a heavy drinker, leaving his wife and lovely children to pursue his habit. Thank God he is saved today and back with his family.

But I sent my brother Jerry with a team of converts to Europe to testify about what Christ did in delivering him from the power of alcohol. The Christians in Europe gladly rejoiced in the testimonies of deliverance from dope and prostitution - but they didn't want to hear a word about Jerry's deliverance from alcohol. Why? Because European Christians guzzle wine and beer like water. It broke his heart.

I have heard all the excuses for the drinking among Christians in Europe - and I can't accept any of them. They blame it on impure water. They talk about it being rooted in their culture and customs. They drink "because they have always done it."

How deeply offended some of the pastors were in Paris, France, when I refused to drink their wine. American missionaries, who themselves easily adopted the European customs, told me I should "do as the Parisians do, while in Paris!" Yet, how deeply offended I was when some of these same ministers were so stoned they couldn't stay awake during my crusade.

There is an alarming rate of alcoholism and heavy drinking in Christian circles in Europe. They do get drunk! They are not all moderate! None of their excuses make it right. And what phoniness for American Christians to drink "only in Europe." They won't touch a drop here in the States, but they think it's "cute" to join the brethren over there in sipping a few!

I am deeply offended by drinking Christians because of the terrible example it sets for young people! This nation is now facing a plague of drinking among teenagers. The two most popular words in school today are "cruising and boozing." Drunkenness is spreading in our schools like a wildfire out of control. Kids tell me that as many as 80% of their class not only drink, but get stone drunk. We face the possibility of having over one million young alcoholics next year.

I've been helping drug addicts for 20 years. But this drinking rage now sweeping our nation frightens me. They drink now because they think alcohol won't"waste" them like drugs! Booze is now the preferred "liquid pot." Everywhere you see teenagers getting stoned, they tell you - "No cops, no parents, no politicians can hassle us now - because they are all doing it, too. We finally found a kick that won't put us behind bars!"

I don't want to get involved in that age-old argument about the Bible and fermented wine as opposed to grape juice. But the more I see of these bombed-out, broken-down, hopelessly drunken young people - the more I am convinced Jesus did not mock that crowd at Canaan's wedding feast with the same stuff that is destroying our youth today.

Christ came to fulfill the law! The law says, "Wine is a mocker . . . whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Was Christ deceived? Would he have served a drink that would have led to a man leaving a feast drunken to heat up his wife? And in court that man is asked, "How did you get so drunk?" And the convicted man answers, "I went to a wedding feast. Jesus of Nazareth served up a really strong drink. He got me drunk."

I can't conceive that Jesus would mock that crowd and serve a drink that could have been abused if taken immoderately. I believe that elixir Jesus served was the pure juice of the vine - a supernatural punch so full of nature's true blend, it was a unique and welcome change! Would Jesus add alcoholic content to His supernatural drink and make it "bite the cup" when the law said -

"Look not upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright . . ." (Proverbs 23:31)?

That was written by a king who had "given himself over to wine" (Ecclesiastes 2:3). And Christ would have never, never given the guests over to wine that was intoxicating.

Paul knew the law, too. He revered the wisdom of Solomon. Pure juice of the grape is good for the health! It is nutritious. But fermented wine is not more nutritious, according to a doctor friend of mind who is well read on the subject. How could Paul recommend drinking alcoholic wine when the law he respected so warned, ". . . be not among winebibbers..."?

But the real issue is not whether or not the New Testament refers to fermented wine or grape juice. The real issue is the abuse of it that is so prevalent today. Solomon had three thousand wives. At one time, Moses permitted divorce. God winked! But God does not wink when His laws become so perverted and abused. Look where our permissiveness has led us. So-called Christian discos, featuring beer drinking and dancing to Christian music. Rocking, rolling, drinking "Christians."

"...Lest they drink and forget the law..."

We are forgetting the laws of God, the very laws Jesus said He came to fulfill. We now allow a lesbian priest to be ordained in the Episcopal church. Homosexuals not only flaunt their sins, they boldly seek recognition and power within the church.

One million new divorces this year. Ten million kids victims of broken homes. Nude dancing in the church sanctuary. Liberal ministers mock old-fashioned biblical sex standards. They now tell our kids, "Masturbation is a gift from God to relieve your tensions."

And the lawlessness to end all lawlessness, some of our church agencies have been serving as fronts for anti-God, Communistic anarchists seeking to destroy democracy - using the churches' missions money to engage in covert acts of violence.

Do Christians drink because of ignorance? Has no one challenged them by the Word of God? Do these new converts from the Jesus movement drink to prove they are liberated and not under law?

A young lady, a member of a Christian love commune, wrote to me recently and said, "Sure, we all drink. Jesus did; Paul did! The Bible is not down on it. Our leaders drink moderately. They are good Bible teachers and they travel, speaking at youth gatherings." Yes - and I happen to know some of them also smoke. They mix Jesus with their heavy rock music, and only God knows where the compromise ends.

They seem to think that adding the word "Jesus" to anything sanctifies it and makes it all right.

You say - "Don't judge, David! What about the beam in your own eye?"

I am not anyone's judge. I have not set myself up as some kind of spokesman for any group. But Paul said, "We judge those within - God judges those without."

It's time judgment was called for! It's time all drinking Christians were challenged! It's time for the Holy Spirit to expose the looseness, the slaphappy "anything goes" attitude. If it's wrong for my dear converted alcoholics and addicts and prostitutes to drink, even moderately, then it is deadly wrong for mature Christians to drink and set a poor example for them.

And I get very weary and spiritually indignant when drinking Christians come back at me with - "Aw, you're just a fundamentalist, law bound, moral do-gooder. We modern, liberated Christians are free in Christ. We are not under law. We will not be bound by your attacks on our freedom."

That offends everything in me that yearns for godliness and holiness. That offends every young convert whom God has convicted of past drinking habits. And the Bible says -

"But whosoever shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" (Matthew 18:6-7).

I refuse to give in to the mounting pressures of worldliness - in the disguise of spiritual freedom! What has happened to us, saints of God - when we can sit idly by and not rebuke the fast eroding morals in the house of God?

I believe in free grace, but not licentiousness. I believe in the imputed righteousness of Christ, by faith. But I also believe the holiness of God demands that we "touch not that which is unclean."

I also believe that smoking ministers are not being honest with God. These "puffing prophets" refuse to practice what they preach. And drinking ministers are a reproach to the name and power of God.

It is not an effort to condemn true ministers of the gospel. But how can we as ministers and parents ask our kids to quit using drugs and alcohol, if we will not clean up our own lives - and set a Christ-like example?

At times, just for a fleeting moment, I think to myself, "Maybe I'm the one who is wrong. Maybe these new Christians who rock, roll, smoke, drink, and who go back to their old haunts to sing, entertain, and perform - maybe they have seen something in God I haven't yet seen. Maybe all these fast changes aren't compromise, but a sign of maturity and growth. Maybe I am too old-fashioned - too out of it to recognize some new thing God is doing."

But then I begin to compare the rollicking, boisterous sounds of their music with the old songs like "The Old Rugged Cross," and "Holy, Holy, Holy." Then I want to cry! I look at them going back into those smoke-filled clubs to entertain the drinking crowd on the pretense of taking Jesus with them, and then I compare them with all the millions of God's people over the centuries from the martyrs on down to the converted addicts and gangs of today, who forsook the world and all its associations to take on the reproach of Christ. I begin to weep for those compromised Christians. I know I am not wrong.

Please don't get mad at me! If you are one of the sipping saints - don't allow your hurt or anger to rob you of the truth. If you find yourself resenting this message of separation - it is probably because God has already convicted you - and He is now wanting you to enjoy complete freedom.

Pray also that God will lay it on the hearts of ministers all over the nation - to take a bold stand in their pulpits against these insidious trends.

Pray for our teenagers! The pressures on them to drink with the crowd are getting worse daily. They need to be encouraged to stand up and resist, lest they be drawn into this whirlpool of drunkenness.

Even if you don't "feel convicted" - abstain for the simple but powerful reason of setting an example for the youth!

"Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things" (Proverbs 23:29-33).

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My experience with alcohol in the church

I'm 34 and have been in church my entire life. Without exception I have noticed that those church attenders who drink alcohol are carnal in other areas as well. R rated movies, and other worldly entertainments most often accompany the drinking church attender.

I played sax on the worship team at a 500 or so member church in college. The guitar player threw a Superbowl party that the team and others including the pastor attended. When I got there I noticed a keg of beer being served. It was then that I began to understand why the pre service worship team prep time seemed so carnal with much joking and jesting and talking about all things not God related. No reverence. No fear of God.

After college I went to Russia with a missions group that reached out to children. We met with a Russian family that were not believers and they offered us Champagne for the New Year celebration. I respectfully declined but the trip leader and another woman who was part of the missions team both had a drink and then the woman asked to taste some russian vodka. I was later shocked when the missions group did Disco tech night with the children and played a bunch of godless American dance music(Britany Spears,Christina Aguelara etc.) as the children danced around. There was soft porn in the leaders bathroom back in the states and ultra violent video games in the family room. His daughter's room was painted all black with morbid pictures hanging.

More recently we attended a church where a worship team member's wife posted pics of her mixed drinks on Facebook. They attended godless rock concerts on occasion and I noticed he had Metallica, Nirvana, and other anti christ music on his phone.

Then there was the time before I was following Jesus when I would sneak beer and hard liqueur and try to drown my sorrows all the while attending church. Nothing good came out of my alcohol use. Only depression.

Paul Caine, Perry Noble, and a host of other pastor leaders have been deceived by the "spirits".

I personally abstain now because I know me. I don't trust myself. I don't want to give anyone any fodder for accusation or stumbling. I have 4 children and don't want to be a bad example for them. I don't want to be part of the "young restless and reformed" crowd that goes to pubs and does the beer tasting events. I want there to be a distinction between my life and the lost world around me. I want to honor God. I have enough shortcomings in my life and don't want to try to deal with another one.

I long to be around men like David Wilkerson who fear God. Whose words shake you to the core when they preach because they are so filled with the Holy Spirit that the conviction is instant. Where are they?

I want to love my wife and children and pursue a simple devotion to Christ all the way to the end.

Saints,

Since the 1980's social drinking in Churches in North America have become very popular. This sudden change has brought about alot of people now considering anyone who holds to the standard view that drinking should not be done in the Church gathering, or at the very least on sunday and not in public as it would not be proper for saints to be in places enjoying the same enjoyments of the world. Of course there are parts of Church history where reformers in cities that were "all" christian by name had pubs where drinking was allowed in moderation.

But even Luther admitted on Sundays came thiefs, drunkards, etc to have communion and he lamented that it was like giving the holy communion to dogs! Meaning he believed that those who were regenerate where different then those who were not and that would be marked in a changed life. Unfortunately in the thinking of a Christian state ie Lutheranism it allowed "all" to be Christian if they just came to Church on Sundays and followed a few other rules but that did not allow all the populous to be born-again from above.

Why I mention this is that there are periods in Church history that allowed public drinking but I would argue amongst more true groupings of believers that was few and far between if not ever.

This is an issue that many young believers are being raised under with "pastoral" approval to be allowed to have full liberty. Imagine it, walking into a modern liquor store and being allowed as a born-again believer that is single and 20 years old to buy anything you want, just make sure you sip it slowly and be careful!

I responded on Facebook to a brother who was teaching approval on alcohol with believers with these words that I hope do not sound harsh:

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It should be clear in our minds that modern alchol available in stores today in North America is primarily made for the high precentage of intoxicating element and its primary use is drunkeness of some sort or fashion. Why would people drink it otherwise? In the Bible days grape juice was lightly allowed to ferment to allow it to store for more then one day along with other reasons. If abundant healthy drinking water were avialable in bible times via metal taps then I am sure grape juice (ie wine) would have been much much less. It is irrenous and mis-leading to other young christians especially to allow the modern wine and beer to be concurrent with what the Bible exhorted as wine. Our liberty should not seek allowance in all the modern amusements and fanfares of the day. If we love the world and seek its pleasures we are not following in the ways of the Apostles (1 John 2:15, Col 3:1-3, etc). The modern use of alchol must be very wisely measured and it can lead to sin very easily. Just consider the millions of lives ruining within even the Church itself with what started off with liberty and social drinking. Welch Grape juice was invented by a holiness wesleyan preacher so that grape juice would be longer lasting without fermentation in America. Take liberty brethren and have a good glass of Welsh's! I say these things with reverence and let not our seeking liberty in areas that are marked with danger be the stumbling block for others in the faith.

I hesitate to respond on this because the potential for being misunderstood and mischaracterized is huge. Let me start by saying that the mostly (if not totally)!apostate movement within the church to draw people in with beer tastings in church, or meeting at bars to drink or whatever is abhorrent. Jesus, the Spirit of God, the fellowship of the ekklesia & the Word of God are to be the draw, not a desire to drink alcohol. Let me also say that I come from a long line of alcoholics (dad, grandad, etc.) & have been a heavy drinker (& consequent fighter) early in my youth & was a heavy illicit drug user (all of them - often simultaneously) in my late teens and early 20's before I got radically born again. I am not naive of the ills of such.

Let me also say, not to boast but to address a broadbrush stereotype grouping brought up earlier in the thread, I am a holiness guy. My favorite preachers are Ravenhill, Tozer, Brown, Katz, Washer, Wilkerson, etc. Outside of a backslidden stint many years ago where I still struggled with pornography, I haven't gone to or watched a rated R Movie (except the Passion of the Christ) in the last 18.5+ years since my conversion. I haven't had cable, satellite or any such thing (not even a local TV station Antenna until last year because my two oldest boys play basketball now & wanted to watch Golden State in the NBA finals & I turn it off and wait for commercials to be far over before turning it back on). I don't listen to secular music. 95% of what I watch & is Christ centered. The other 5% is an occasional nature/animal documentary, "How It's Made", WW2 Documentaries, Food/Nutrition Documentaries, etc. 100% of what I spend my available time reading is Christ/Bible/Evangelism/Missions/etc. focused. I am not sharing these things to boast, but to show that I am not some compromising, backsliding, harlot apostate. Anyone who knows me at all knows I am admittedly far from perfect, but I am about The Lord, the Ministry, the Mission, Eternity, etc.

Let me also say I am acquainted with the ministry of Teen Challenge and other addiction focused ministries (I have preached & shared at some of them including Teen Challenges in the Northeast & East Texas area (where Wilkerson began). I know why the Bible includes warnings on "do not be drunk with wine" & such. And I know that being a drunkard is one identifier of some of those who will not inherit the kingdom. But the "teetotaler" (not a single drop or you're in sin) stance not only as a personal conscience/wisdom one, but as a doctrinal mandate for everyone, is stretching & adding to the scriptures.

Although I want to be EXTREMELY careful not to encourage people to have a heart attitude of "eat, drink & be merry, for tomorrow we die", I also secondarily want to be cautious not to go beyond what is written, add to (or outright change/deny) the Word of God, & operate as the Pharisses did who tithed of their mint, dill, & cumin (& made sure everyone else knew about it). Guys like John Piper admit he's by nature a "teetotaler BY DEFAULT" because of what he has seen and his background, but when asked if drinking is a sin, he says, "it certainly can be". And when asked if drinking is ok, he also answers "it can be". And he doesn't judge others who aren't teetotalers & even he himself if he was in Germany where it's standard and customary to drink a beer with a meal, would likely try to be polite & thankful and manage it so as not to dishonor, disrespect & harm a human relationship (in the spirit of "eat what is out before you without question of conscience" assumably).

We have to look at what the scriptures actually say & just be honest with them not adding to or taking say from. I think some of what Todd pointed out (& I did too before Pulling my initial response) is something we have to be honest with. If the people in 1 Corinthians were being judged for "getting drunk" with the Lord's Supper communion wine, it's ridiculous to say it was "probably just 1% alcohol back then) or whatever. Jewish historians don't bear that out & neither does common sense. They'd have to drink multiple gallons to get drunk? Really? Think about that. Have you ever say drank 1-2 gallons of anything? You can actually die from drinking a gallon (much less 2) of water too fast. This is just something I believe people wrongly assume to defend their (overreaching the scriptures) position.

For those who say "do not love the world or anything in the world.." As a teetotaler defense, I would say that could be applied to a lot of things & overreach. You could apply that to chocolate cake if you wanted & speak of gluttony & the empty calories & never eat a nice desert for the rest of your life if you wanted (& go by your conscience by all means, but don't try to institute a doctrine of men based on yourself). Many would also discount anything remotely like rap style music. But I would say Shai Linne often has more solid theology in one song than many Western pulpits put out all year long. And the spirit of it is to glorify God & spread the Gospel. Again, not your cup of tea musically or have a weak conscience about it? Fine, anything not of faith is sin, so by all means obey YOUR conscience, but don't make your (weak) conscience a LAW for all people and use scriptures out of context to justify a new tradition of men. "Death metal for Jesus"? Sure, the discernible spirit of that garbage is not from above. I think those that are mature with discernment can all agree on that.

But back to the specific topic at hand. If someone wants to occasionally have a single glass of wine, doesn't parade it around other believers as some badge of honor, considers the weaker brother, understands the dangers of overusing alcohol, & understands all the scriptures on the subject both the warnings and the matter of fact non-warnings, am I going to accuse them of sin? Absolutely not. I don't need to go farther than the Word to enforce my agenda to make sure people are safe. God does just fine in how He handles things in the Word. His balance & reconciliation of all scriptures in context is perfect, lacking in nothing. If someone argues with me, I generally just let it be, assuming their conscience is weak in this area or they are just doing as they know best to honor God & praise God for them. No judgement. I could "make a case" using scriptures (in an unbalanced way) if I wanted to to say my wife can't wear a drop of makeup, must wear dresses only to the floor, can't use a perfumed shampoo, etc. & call that "modesty". Well, it can be modesty. It can also be self focused legalism. My wife dress modestly too. No cleavage, no high cut dresses or skirts, etc. We go by the "let your clothes be a frame for your face, not your body, which is sensual" as Paul Washer says. As he also points out, a woman doesn't have to go out of her way to look ugly/unattractive physically either. That's not modesty. That's legalism.

In addition to what Todd already pointed out in his post, here is a short article from a Bible Study Site called Bible Study.ORG. It is not some "liberal apostate website" either. We need to just be responsible and honest with the text and let God's Spirit with His Word do the rest:

Did Jesus drink wine?
Did Jesus drink wine or just some quality GRAPE JUICE? Does the Bible say Christians should not drink at all? Is it true that alcohol and believers do not mix? Some churches teach that since Christ drank wine that we should as well. Is this hypothesis true? Did Jesus and his disciples, at his last Passover, drink JUICE?

GRAPE JUICE at a wedding?
Some teach that what is referred to as wine in the Bible is actually grape juice that is unfermented. Or they teach that while wine in the Old Testament had an alcoholic content the New Testament kind does not. Clearly, Noah or Lot did not get intoxicated on unfermented drink (Genesis 9:21, 19:32-35). Biblical evidence shows a consistent reference, from cover to cover, that wine is an alcoholic beverage able to make a person drunk with its overuse.

Jesus very first public miracle was turning water into WINE (John 2), not water into grape juice, at a wedding feast in Cana. Jewish custom required they drink REAL wine at such a joyous celebrations - especially when there was highly likely LOTS of people in attendance. What Jesus miraculously produced HAD to contain fermentation for it to receive the rave reviews it got from guests!

JUICE at the Passover?
During what is referred to as Jesus' Last Supper, which occurred in the Spring of 30 A.D., he took a cup of wine and gave it to his disciples to drink. At the time of the Passover the usual Palestine grape harvest had already occurred half a year earlier. Since juice, whether from a grape or other fruit, had no way of being preserved in the first century, Jesus and the apostles HAD to ingest something that was fermented.

When it refers to wine, the New Testament consistently refers to it in its alcohol content state. If nothing but juice was used in the early church, then it makes no sense whatsoever why the 120 disciples on Pentecost are accused of drunkenness on a Holy Day (Acts 2:1-4, 7, 13).

Alcohol's negative consequences
Those who wish to uphold the teaching that NO alcohol of any kind should be used by a Christian usually use ONLY Bible verses that show (sometimes only on the surface) a negative reference to wine. One popular example of alcohol's ill effects is found in Proverbs 20.

Drinking too much makes you loud and foolish. It's stupid to get drunk. (Proverbs 20:1)

Yes, the Bible does not condone drinking to the point of drunkenness. That said, there is no prohibition from taking a little alcohol so long as it is not over-indulged in. Another section of Proverbs, the 23rd chapter, also condemns drunkenness and alcoholism, but in no way prohibits or even discourages the moderate use of wine.

"Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has contentions? Who has complaints? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? Those who linger long at the wine, those who go in search of mixed wine. Do not look on the wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it swirls around smoothly; At the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like a viper." (Proverbs 23:29-32)

The "red" liquid that swirls around smoothly is liquid that is still fermenting. One should not "look" upon it to lust after and drink it as doing so before it is fully fermented can cause illness and death.

The references to the "wine of the wrath of God," and "the wine of her fornication" (See Revelation 14, 16, 17 and similar references) merely use it as a pictorial vehicle. They in no way condemn the moderate use of a fermented drink any more than similar word pictures condemn other things. If such "unfavorable" references of this type constituted such a message, a Christian would then sin by wearing a cloak (1Peter 2:6), partaking of water (Numbers 19:9; Jeremiah 8:14), using an oven or heat or fire (Deuteronomy 29:24), etc. etc.

Benefits of alcohol
The Bible contains many positive examples and commands about alcoholic beverages. Some of these are below, which helps balance the scriptures that are negative.

Wine as made by our Creator for man's rejoicing!

"Bless the Lord, O my soul! O Lord my God, You are very great . . . And (God makes) WINE that makes glad the heart of man, . . ." (Psalm 104:1, 15)

Alcohol can help those in pain or near deathforget their troubles for a while.

"Give STRONG DRINK to him who is perishing, and WINE to those who are bitter of heart. Let him drink and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more" (Proverbs 31:6-7)
The first public miracle by Christ was turning water to wine (John 2:1-10).

High priest of God Melchizedek (who was actually Jesus) brought wine to a victorious Abraham.

"Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and WINE; he was the priest of God Most High" (Genesis 14:18)

Our Father will someday offer man alcohol for free.

"'Ho! Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money, come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy WINE and milk without money and without price' " (Isaiah 55:1)

A fabulous feast will be made by God for those who love him.

"And in this mountain the Lord of hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of WINES on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well-refined WINES on the lees." (Isaiah 25:6)

Those who wish to promote total abstinence seem to twist wine's positive references to refer to juice, and all the negative references refer to juice of the fermented kind. The Bible, however, is consistent in its references to wine as having an alcohol content.

In conclusion
Like food and so many other things in the Bible, the issue of alcohol is not one of total prohibition but rather of moderation. The apostle Paul, concerned about the health of his close friend and evangelist Timothy, told him to stop drinking just water and begin to partake of some wine 'for you stomach's sake' and for the sake of his illnesses (1Timothy 5:23). Paul promoted a balance approach to alcohol and other things in life (Philippians 4:5).

The Bible DOES allow Christians to partake of alcohol in a responsible way. Jesus saw nothing wrong with drinking a little wine now and then. If he saw nothing wrong with it moderate use, we should see nothing wrong with doing so as well.

Well said Jeff.

brother Jeff,

It is from all my reading of Church history that all state run churches allowed the use of alcohol in communion and otherwise, while almost all remnant churches (not state run or large) would not condone the practice of consuming alcohol especially not encouraging social drinking or private consumption even in small quantities.

Some of the early Church fathers would some allow for very small quantities but with great warnings of the dangers of drinking.

In the end the allowance in evangelical, spirit-filled circles of drinking socially or privately is a new occurrence especially since the 1980's. So we have to question is this the right thing?

Along with this divorce and remarriage has changed, head-coverings lost and many other strong views on Scripture. Is it not possible that the Church is slipping from its sure place into apostasy as even homosexuality is allowed in many churches and acceptance or (not judging) is condoned in many seemingly biblical churches?

It is without argument that wine was used in the Bible days but it is "not exactly" the same as what is used and promoted in our day. When I was a child going with my dad into the beer store I always had a sense of "wrong" in my conscience, I still do to this day.

.
1 Corithians 10:23

All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

Living in Arkansas where the summers are unbearably hot. If I come in on a hot day when the heat index is 105 degrees. A cold brewski is certainly quite appealing. And I would certainly argue that I have Christian liberty the drink that cold brewski. Provided I am not causing another saint to stumble with my use of liberty. At least that's what I used to argue.

The article by David Wilkerson has really caused me to rethink this issue. That and discussions with a dear sister who has been reminding me of the need to ever have the cross at the center of my life.

We are living in an age when darkness is becoming more pronounced. And the church is becoming more worldly. I have a friend who sarcastically would say join the church and see the world.

My friend would be justified in his comment when we see the state of the evangelical church in America. A church that is quite worldly. How are we the city set on the hill? How are we the light in the darkness? How are we the counterculture to a worldly culture? How do we reflect the holy reality of the city above? How do we reflect the holy reality of a holy Christ who dwells within us? Can a Spirit-filled Christian who says he has Jesus Christ abiding in him have a New Testament in one hand and a brewski in another? And expect to be a solid witness to the non-believer?

If one goes into a church in cease a group of professing Christians speaking of worldly things. And then sees that same group of Christians out in a bar enjoying their drinks. Where is the difference?

Though drinking may be lawful under the new covenant. Is it profitable? Though drinking may be lawful under the new covenant. Is it edifying? If we would employ the above test in the case of drinking. Asking is it profitable and is it edifying. I believe we would come to the answer it is better not to drink. Even in the so-called social situations.

There may have been things which we considered lawful under the liberty of Christ. But I believe the Holy Spirit will have us come to the cross and crucify even the lawful things. These may be things such as forms of entertainment, social media, drinking, places we may have frequented, etc. The Holy Spirit will start convicting us to even lay down the lawful things as we pursue holiness as unto Christ.

God is coming back for a spotless bride. Peter writes that we should be holy in all of our behavior because God says He is holy.

If we must ere. Then let us ere as Paul did when he said may I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ through which the world has been crucified to me and I to the world.

Simply my thoughts and reflections.

It's a cultural issue. I am sure that the founding fathers wanted to dissociate themselves from the drunken reputation of the British, then and now. I think that is behind the touchiness of Americans concerning drink.

Go to Germany though, and France l believe, and alcohol has an entirely different meaning. A glass of beer with a meal, or wine in France, is entirely accepted by all of society. I remember seeing people taking their empties back for the deposits in Berlin, with their bags clinking and clanking, and thinking they would not dare do that so openly in Britain, in case word got around their neighbours that they were alcoholics. The older ones that is.

In Germany they are much more family centred and do not spend their time in pubs getting a skin full like they do in my country. It is a small glass and maybe two of a healthful drink, containing b vitamins because of traditional brewing, with a meal, and that's it. No association with being a degenerate and not high levels of abuse l would imagine.

Nudity is the same. It is not associated with lust like here or in the US. In Germany it is about healthy sunbathing and swimming and people are naked in lakes with no one turning a blind eye to it. Even the young lads are not googling.

I think that this has to be taken into consideration, and as it has not been culturally acceptable, then one must be aware and perhaps only drink at home, and certainly not have alcohol in the communion cup where drink problems are common.

I think it is very important to note that this sermon was given by David on May 1, 1977. This was long before he the Lord opened his eyes to the NEW Covenant.

Look at what he wrote here in his book "IT IS FINISHED"

"In my later years, I have concluded that laying hold of the New Covenant is the only way to break free from the power and dominion of sin. I hope to show you in this book how that glorious work takes place. Yet the unveiling of the New Covenant is not something within my power or ability to do. Only the Holy Spirit can open up its marvelous truths to the seeker. I can, however, assure all who are discouraged by their lack of victory over a besetting sin that this book can open your eyes to the incredible promises and provisions God has given to all who intensely yearn for freedom from sin's dominion. May the Holy Spirit unveil the glory and power of the New Covenant to every seeker who desires to walk in holiness and peace."

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1 Peter 1:14-16

Therefore prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. As obedient children do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourself also in all your behavior; because it is written "YOU SHALL BE HOLY BECAUSE I AM HOLY."

Brethren this is a matter of practical holiness. This is something that transcends cultures. It is a practical holiness to reflect the purity of a bride that Christ is coming for.

Jesus is calling for us to be separate from the world. He is calling for us to live out the reality of His pure Kingdom above. Should archon does not reflect that reality of Christ dwelling in our hearts. Should our conduct not reflect a holy behavior that testifies of a holy Lord who lives in us?

Again I will say: each one follow your own conscience & no one is free to be a drunkard, but just don't add to the Word or take it out of context to "make your point" and try to apply that as a rule or a law for everyone. Just like how Paul said "it is better not to marry, but nevertheless,...each one have his own wife..." Are we now going to start preaching celibacy as "the right thing"? I'm not. No sir. But if someone reads these passages and feels that call to celibacy from God, praise God, I will support them. But, if they then start preaching it as a Law or "what everyone should do", I'm going to shut it down gracefully with the full course of scripture in context. And so let's look at the verses Bear brought up IN CONTEXT, and see if they are speaking of an occasional individual, private, non-stumbling, non-drunkard glass of wine or beer, or what they are actually speaking to?

1 Corinthians 6

Flee Sexual Immorality

12"All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be enslaved by anything. 13"Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”””and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two will become one flesh.” 17But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 18Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Anything about an occasional private non-stumbling, non-drunkeness glass of wine or beer? No. Sexual immorality is the context.

What about 1 Corinthians 10?

14Therefore, my beloved, xflee from idolatry. 15I speak as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?17Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. 18Consider the people of Israel: are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar? 19What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything?20No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. 22Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

Do All to the Glory of God

23"All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful,” but not all things build up. 24Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor.25Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 26For "the earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof.” 27If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 28But if someone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience”” 29I do not mean your conscience, but his. For why should my liberty be determined by someone else's conscience? 30If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks?

31So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, 33just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.

Anything about a private, single glass of wine or a beer? Nope. Idolatry. Food sacrificed to idols. And even there if there's no question raised on it and you don't know, just eat it and thank the Lord. If it's been sacrificed to demons & you know it, don't. Nothing about a glass of wine on a rare romantic date with your spouse or a cold beer after mowing 3 acres on a hot summer day.

And Greg, state run churches and remnant churches is a modern equivalent (in the east). Apples and oranges. And divorce (& head-coverings) is a whole other issue. A straw man really when brought into this conversation. Divorce comes from apostasy yes (adultery and apostasy come from the same original Hebrew root word). And the main problem is rampant sexual immorality. Not an occasional glass of wine. Not at all.

And as far as your conscience as a kid, maybe your dad was an alcoholic? Maybe you knew the beer was what made him drunk or mean to you & your family? I have no idea? I don't go to "beer stores" either. They sell wine at restaurants if I want a glass with a meal or the grocery store if I really want a glass for a special occasion at home. Your conscience on this issue is your conscience and I expect & exhort you as a brother to follow it! But using the Word of God (& historical fact) out of context or twisting/shaping it to fit a narrative is what I feel invokes some balanced teaching/speech on honestly. It's something that always throughout history starts with good motives and in the rear-view ended with legalism. I don't want liberalism/apostasy/lukewarm Christianity! No. A thousand times no. I also don't want Phariseeiacal Legalism that adds to the word and creates the "traditions and doctrines of men". I have seen the fruits of that in the United Pentacostal Church back in the day, the Amish, etc. Legalism doesn't save anymore than Liberalism. Nor is it any more holy or Biblical or balanced. I appreciate (& personally operate with a lot of) PASSION! Pathos! But gotta be careful that is directed right. The Word gives us proper balance in context.

Sturgeon smoked Cigars on occasion and said he did it to the Glory of God. I'm sure that REALLY is abhorrent among the "teetotaler" theology? But I digress. I'm just saying. The church isn't rampant with divorce or rabid feminists who won't embrace submission or modesty because I have a glass of wine with dinner once every month or two. Sorry, that's a total straw man from the top to the bottom. And there's no Biblical, historical, factual or logical connection there. None whatsoever.

God Bless,
Jeff

Very balanced argument Jeff and l say this after being married to an alcoholic.

Brenda,
You had me in mostly agreement until the nude bathing part. Sorry, but there's nothing modest about being naked in front of strangers. "Wear modest attire" is clear in scripture. We can vary on what that means, but if your nude, how could that be modest attire when it's no attire? Adam and Eve hid because they knew they were naked & God covered them with animal skins. It's deeply spiritual and the first protoevangalium of Christ the Lamb to cover, but the practical application is that their private parts were covered. A desensitized young lad doesn't change the Word of God either. Sorry, but I had to say something to say that's not what I'm saying overall with my discussion on the occasional private glass of wine. Not at all. 😊
God Bless,
Jeff

I never said that l approved, l was just comparing cultural attitudes and would not dream of condoning it for Christians.

Forrests,
I respect (& appreciate) your position. I do. And if the Lord tells you to do (or not do) something, by all means, do it (or don't do it, respectively 😊). But that's different than misapplying verses to basically say any alcohol drinking is "sin" for everyone. Anything not of faith is sin. But if they drank 2% alcohol wine (history doesn't support that, but for your arguments' sake) in Bible times during holidays and festivals. If they drank a full glass of 2%, then that's like drinking 1/3 a glass today of 6%. Is that Ok? Where does such end? It ends in a matter of conscience. Follow yours. But don't try to build a doctrinal teaching of it. Against drunkeness? Yes! On following your conscience? Yes! On all the warnings of alcohol in scripture? Yes! On "Teetotaller Doctrine/Theology" with verses taken out of their original context to substantiate and prop it up? No, no & a thousand times no! God doesn't need you to go beyond what is written to protect Him and His saints. What He has actually written (in context) with the Holy Spirit is more than sufficient enough (& balanced).
God Bless,
Jeff

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I must ask why are we defending our liberty to drink? Should we not be looking for ways to crucify the lawful at the cross, particularly in this final hour of redemptive history when darkness is providing the earth. It would seem to me that we should be encouraging one another to practical biblical holiness rather than looking for ways that we can heist the stein.

I speak as one who would enjoy his burger and brew even when listening to my audio New Testament at a local sports bar. But reading this article by David Wilkerson. And getting ready to listen to brother Forest posted link. I'm coming to the conclusion that the only beer I drink is a soft root beer.

I'm not speaking this out of a legalistic bent but seeing the need that I need to be holy in this final hour of redemptive history. And I think Christ is calling for his bride to be holy in this final hour of redemptive history. We need to be holy so that we can be the light of Christ.

Instead of defending our Liberty to drink or have a brewski we should be asking what would the Holy Spirit have us do. If we clearly hear His Voice He would say that He is returning for a holy bride. As such all of our behavior and conduct should be holy as unto Christ. All of our behavior and conduct should reflect a holy Christ who dwells in US. That so we can be a witness in this dark and perverse generation.

I realize I may be one of the few dissenting voices in this thread. But at this point I can no longer defend the lawful as my Liberty and Christ. But must look for ways to crucify the lawful at the cross.

Simply my thoughts and reflections.

Oh ok, just making sure. 😊

Abstaining from drink does not make a person more holy. There is a case for abstaining in places where one can cause another to stumble, but in the privacy of ones home then it is conscience and what God allows. There again, Paul did not insist on Timothy drinking a little wine in private though lsrael was perhaps like Germany in its attitude towards alcohol.

It is however, very unholy to tell others to do what their conscience alone should tell them.

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Sister respectfully our lives are not compartmentalized. The test of character is what we do in private will be with others see in public. Also it is not our conscience that is our guide. It is the Holy Spirit.

Being holy is a state of what the Holy Spirit wraughts in our heart. The outward abstension of alcohol without a heart conviction in Christ will not make one holy.

But seeing that the world is ever increasing moving toward darkness until he returns. I am seeing that He's calling for a bride to be holy with His life dwelling within them. Our life should reflect the reality of a holy Christ that dwells within them. Thus it would seem we should be encouraging one another more to a walk of holiness. Rather than encouraging one another to indulge their Liberty in drinking.

I realize I am one of the dissenting voices in this thread that holds this position. But the darkness of the age and the conviction of the Holy Spirit will not allow me to take another position. Even to say that we have the Liberty to drink.

Respectfully posted.

This is why I said I was responding like a snail knowing mischaracterizations would follow. 😊

I'm not "defending the freedom to drink" as much as slowing the tendency to say "sipping saints are sinful" as a broadbrush of teetotalism. That as some applied doctrine to everyone is what is "Going beyond what is written". Please, everyone on here, don't drink! Ever, at all! But I'm not going to accuse you of sin (& I have heard David's message on "Sippin saints" & that's essentially exactly what he does - and I LOVED David Wilkerson profusely!). I know David struggled with some borderline legalistic & hard ways early on and later admitted such. I never doubted his heart on it though.

Forgive me Greg if I misunderstood you, but when you wrote:

"Some of the early Church fathers would some allow for very small quantities but with great warnings of the dangers of drinking.

In the end the allowance in evangelical, spirit-filled circles of drinking socially or privately is a new occurrence especially since the 1980's. So we have to question is this the right thing?

Along with this divorce and remarriage has changed, head-coverings lost and many other strong views on Scripture. Is it not possible that the Church is slipping from its sure place into apostasy as even homosexuality is allowed in many churches and acceptance or (not judging) is condoned in many seemingly biblical churches?"

You certainly seem to be making a quick connection and lumping those who might occasionally enjoy a glass of beer or wine in with adulterers, homosexuals, unsubmissive rebellious feminists, etc. That to me is too far. The scriptures stick "drunkards" in that mix, but don't teach "teetotalism" as doctrine or scripture (or early church practice - why would the apostles in Acts 2 have even been accused of drinking too much wine if the power to do it wasn't in the wine they were serving? Or how could those in 1 Corinthians who were taking the Lord's Supper unworthily (& were judged for it, some dying) have been getting drunk on 1% wine? That's nonsensical. By drinking a 5-gallon bucket? No.

This is why I didn't I honestly didn't really want to respond, but in my 18.5 years of walking with the Lord in many circles, I have learned to be aware of "cheap grace" apostate doctrines and "legalism" doctrines that add to the Word and Both are equally as dangerous in how we study and teach the Word of God IMHO. I'm not saying that's anyone's intent. If you now think I'm some apostate, cheap grace, worldly kind of person, then you didn't read (or believe) what I wrote & you just are in a certain place on it, and that's fine. Praise God! I will praise God for your celibacy too! And your living on the streets with nowhere to lay your head! And your tithing even from your garden herbs (that was a loving & harmless joke, you can laugh 😊), but don't try to teach it as a requirement for everyone or I will resist it. With context, scripture, history, balance & experience all in concert together.
I'm out. God Bless!
Jeff

Bear,
Follow your conscience and what you feel the Holy Spirit is telling you brother. You have my support in that. 100%. Just be careful & make sure in that you don't judge those who occasionally have a small drink outside of environments where people could stumble because of it. If you accuse them of sin, you're accusing Jesus, The apostles, the early church (who all did have "a sip" from time to time - fact that scripture & history backs), much of the church in the rest of the world (not just the false church either - but some of the remnant who don't have your "issue of conscience" as the scriptures specifically put such things). I respect your not drinking. Do it as unto the Lord! Praise God!
Jeff

Blaine l meant the Holy Spirit speaking to our conscience.

Jeff has absolutely nailed it and shown up the legalism of those who deny that wine in those days was not that less alcoholic than it is today, the weaker variety that is, not 16% wine. It had to be to keep without contamination.

Your comment says it all Blaine. Nobody is encouraging anyone to drink. When people are being irrational, then it is time to stop.

Some of the arguments honestly remind me of arguments for tithing. Tithing is an OT Law (which teetotalism wasn't even that) and is mentioned nowhere in a good light in the NT. but the argument is: "even if it's not mandated in the NT, given the time of greed we live in, wouldn't it be better to just give 10% than free will offerings that the NT does speak of, lest people don't give?" No. It's never better to think for God & His Word and add to it. Never. God knows who is His. Who has the means. Who will give not out of compulsion, but willingly with a cheerful heart. You may also surmise, "brother, why are you advocating Liberty not to tithe. Isn't that Liberty not to give at all?" Only for those who need a Law to do what God wants to come from the heart! The Word is sufficient without adding to it or using scripture out of context to prop up our position. That's my whole (& only) point in this thread, period

Me too! POM Organic in the big bottle at Costco makes a smoothie nice!

I drink distilled water myself, for my health's sake.

High Ph water with electrolytes. Even more healthy. I believe distillers in Acidic. Google High PH water. One scientist said its the greatest innovation in medical science in the last 100 years. Cancer cannot live in an alkaline environment

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Brother excellent message. I believe it nails it (no pun intended) right at the cross. Indeed it is time to crucify the lawful at the Cross of Christ.

Thanks for posting. Going to send it out.

In Germany they are much more family centred and do not spend their time in pubs getting a skin full like they do in my country. It is a small glass and maybe two of a healthful drink, containing b vitamins because of traditional brewing, with a meal, and that's it. No association with being a degenerate and not high levels of abuse l would imagine.

Nudity is the same. It is not associated with lust like here or in the US. In Germany it is about healthy sunbathing and swimming and people are naked in lakes with no one turning a blind eye to it. Even the young lads are not googling.

Sister,

Absolutely not! European cultures are anti-christ and debased and typify Romans 1 as America is quickly following in. There is nothing virtuous in the above mentioned practice of swimming, this is sin and wickedness. When mankind becomes so used to sin they go further and further until nothing is out of bounds. We wonder why there are laws against having sex with animals in the old Testament this is because mankind's heart is desperately wicked and full of perversion and evils.

When we reason in this way it worldly wisdom and not considering the Holy Scriptures we need to go back to what is God's standard and not a debased cultures standard of right and wrong.

Nudity and lack of modesty is sinful, corrupt and it corrupts others. God is against it. Cultural use of smoking certain types of natural weeds, plants in cultures all across the world is wrong also and in many cases a "high" feeling comes from this illegal practice.

For the entire history of mankind we can see that the wicked and unbelievers delve into these practices and the righteous and believers abstain and stay away from them.

Is our conscience hardened as believers that we cannot discern between the holy and profane, towards things that are wrong and things that are good. In any cultural especially european drunkenness is epidemic. The cultural practice has catered to and allowed sins to abound.

The Scriptures are clear we must be very careful with wine and its cause of destruction of many is evident. The modern believer and preacher does not have such a view and I have rarely heard a message warning of the ills of drinking though it is one of the main causes of sin in North America. Perhaps revival will not come until we start uncovering the rocks of "cultural" sin that is accepted by unbelievers and believers alike.

Paul the Apostle as led by the Holy Spirit clearly rebukes people for their culturally accepted sins which in the kingdom of God was not to be accepted:

Titus 1:12 New International Version (NIV)

12 One of Crete’s own prophets has said it: "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.”

I personally cannot with a good conscience walk into a liquor store with all the unbelievers who are mostly buying these strong drinks to become drunk and inebriated.

Thanks Forrest. By the way, I already shared John Piper's exact direct answer to "is it ok for a Christian to drink alcohol" & "Is it a sin to drink alcohol" from his "Ask John Piper Podcast Q&A on YouTube. So we can apply all different types of things to the non-specifically states things in scripture. It could go on forever. You could run better single. Are you telling your kids they should remain single? And by reverse implication, do you think my having a single glass of wine on average 1 a month during a dinner date with my wife is hurting my run? If so, could you tell me how? I can tell you how it doesn't, but I want to know how you might think it does. I agree with John Piper's video overall & the principle he is getting across. Amen. But the context of this thread is teetotalism (Sippin saints) or "missing the mark" (the archer's terminology from where the word "sin" is derived) by taking an occasional, private (so as not to make the weaker stumble), non-drunkeness inducing drink. So how am I being entangled, not running my race as I should, etc. by this? Fact is, I'm not and it is not. I hate having to argue against applied "Law" mentalities on things scripture is not clearly stated on. It makes it sound like I'm being liberal or compromising. I'm not. Hopefully, I wouldn't have Tithed from my garden herbs in the first century & made a doctrine out of tradition too. I'm not opposing the video. I like the video. I love exhortations to run your race! I love holiness preaching and practice! I just don't like going beyond what is written (in application - that is what the Pharisees did) & then trumpeting it as scriptural doctrinal teaching. It is not.

Let me give you some more information on how different matters are different levels of "entanglement" to different people. I have had many such things I have worked through over the years before God & in conversations with saints. Let's take sports. I am an athlete. I lettered in 5 sports, played league Basketball for many many years. I grew up in Dallas, the home of a sports team you may have heard of, the Dallas Cowboys (& the Dallas Mavericks). I used to watch all the games. Go to a few here and there. Keep up with all of that. I played in leagues. At one point, I realized it was hindering my walk. Frustrations with calls or bad apples on the other team. Unnecessary Time & emotions given to who wins or loses. All folly really. So I quit. For good. Baby pacifier level stuff I know. But do I still occasionally go to the park with my teenage boys and play with them and their friends? Yes I do. They beg me too (they like seeing the old man still do a little I guess - or maybe they eagerly sit the day they can take me, I don't know. Lol 😊). But what if I decided basketball was a sinful hindrance & so I outlawed it altogether for me & my family (& others in conversation)? Would that be Biblical holiness or Legalism? My not doing it for the Lord and my walk's sake would be holiness. My mandation of it for all others would be legalism.

And I have had such (at times ridiculous) conversations with people about fishing, hunting, camping, etc. If it's my idol or my god (like it was for my dad & is for my brother), then yes, it would be sin. But when I do it, I do it with my family & spend time with them (& discuss the things of the Lord as I walk out, I we go on the road, etc.). And likewise, after 1 glass of wine, I am telling my wife how beautiful she still is (which I do at other times obviously), discussing things we need to discuss, showing her affection and value, & talking about the Lord, what he has put on my heart for things they may be ahead in our family calling, etc. Is that glass of wine hindering my run? How? Now if you don't/can't do it in faith, or have no desire to, or whatever, praise the Lord - I respect that! I really do! But don't tell me I'm missing the mark by calling something sin (missing the mark) that God hasn't. You have. For you, which is fine. But for others? Whoah, let's balance pathos with scripture, teaching, history & a "right balance" before God in applying these passages to everything specific for everyone to a degree God has not. That is the Holy Spirit's job. Watching Rated R movies or something? Yeah, I get that. Can't see Jesus or the apostles doing that ever! But having a glass of wine? We actually know that they did do that! That's the difference. That's about as clear as I think I can be on the matter.
God Bless,
Jeff

Greg,
I agree wholeheartedly on the cultural sins of nudity, sexual immorality, etc. like expressed in Romans 1. In fact, let's look at what Romans 1 days in its full context. You can go back as far as you want, but I think this is good for context.

Romans 1
24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to xthe dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

So what sins are mentioned here (and elsewhere)? Sexual Immorality, Homosexuality, Denial of God (Atheism), covetousness, greed, deceit, slander, gossip, faithlessness, drunkeness, etc. No mention once ever in the scriptures of "teetotalarism" or the partaking of a small amount of wine (what scripture speaks to exactly since that's what they drank themselves) in an amount that wouldn't make one drunk or make a weaker brother stumble. Not one ever anywhere? But we must go beyond what is written and make "Sippin saints" (Sippin by definition means a small amount) a sin before God? No sir.

And let's look at Titus in context:

5This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you”” 6if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

10For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party (*my added - the ironic thing is that the "Circumcision party" there would be the Judaizers actually pushing "Law" & Legalism from their Jewish Traditions books of the Rabbinical Commentaries adding to the Word of God and thus making it void, not licentiousness). 11They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. 12ONe of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” (*my added - Scholars say This was a quote from a common secular speaker/artist of that day). 13This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth (*Paul tells us who we are to rebuke sharply - the Judaizers pushing Law. Not those who "have some wine" like Paul instructed Timothy exactly to do & even recorded it in scripture. And it wasn't grape juice). 15To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. 16They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

Most errors in teaching or theological application of verses can be corrected with some context. Why we are told to "search the scriptures" not "proof text the verses". I don't disagree more preaching and teaching should be done on the dangers and warnings of alcohol. Just like the dangers & warnings of the love of money! But money isn't inherently evil - the love of it is. I believe men who exposit all the Word like John Piper and others do just this very thing quite well. I can hear & receive it from such men of the Word and balanced with all the scriptures and their consequent position. I have a hard time receiving much from someone when I discern that driving "law" of legalism behind it. It's fairly easy to identify & dissect too, because scriptures start getting misapplied out of context, other scriptures clearly ignored, your good honest questions from a different view don't get answered, & then even extremism can set in where we would lie (or believe liars) who say it was grape juice. Or it was 1% (when that is easily ruled out by an understanding of nothing else of Acts 2 & 1 Corinthians). I don't mean any disrespect & I love the heart that yearns for holiness. But even the scriptures tell us that "zeal without knowledge" can de dangerous & harmful.

Thank you Todd. Well said & glad I'm being rightly heard & understood (by someone 😊)

https://youtu.be/7U1S74WbH5E

by narrowpath on 2016/8/11 17:09:22

It is no trouble for me to abstain from alcohol if a brother feels tempted through my liberty, but I will not allow him to rule over my conscience.

A very KEY statement: Do not let another man rule over your conscience.

You will surely displease the Lord as you let a man come between you and the Lord. He is a jealous God.

.
1 Corithians 10:23

All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

1 Corthians 9:24-27

Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim, I box in such a way as not beating the air, but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

1 Timothy 4:7

On the other hand discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness.

Paul understood his Christian liberty but was aware that all things that "were lawful" would "not be profitable or would edify." This is the issue that John Piper and J. Verne MvFhee are are raising.

No drinking is not a sin. Drunkenness is a sin. But the question is. Is it profitable and does it edify to indulge our liberty to drink. What type of testimony are we maintaining for the Lord Jesus Christ before an unbelieving world?

If I go to a sports bar and have a Bud in one hand and my Bible in the other what type of testimony is that sending?

Brother McGee makes the statement that a Christian who partakes of alcohol is ruining their testimony. I'd be inclined to agree with this.

Rather than use his liberty Paul took great pains to crucify what was lawful to him at the cross. This is why he tells us in Galatians 6:14,

... But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world....

Our brother is not boasting in his liberty to do the lawful. But he is boasting in the fact that at the cross he has crucified everything that would prevent him or disqualify him from winning the race. Even those things that are lawful.

Brethren that must be our attitude. Rather than looking for ways to do that which is lawful. We oight to be looking for ways to crucify the lawful. That requires us to take up the cross of Christ and die to our desires. Even our desires to that which is lawful.

My thoughts from the foot of His cross.

.
But do we let the cross rule over us. Truly the cross is a stumbling block when it meets our flesh.

A very KEY statement: Do not let another man rule over your conscience.

Of course any man-made commandments and rules should not rule over believers as we must hear the Holy Spirit and also obey God's clear words. That is my point that there is so much warning and clear Scriptures against mis-use of wine and warns against "strong drink" which is different then the "mixed-wine".

We also have brethren using Jesus turning water to wine (mixed) and other references to encourage liberty of drinking modern wine which is much different then in Bible Times.

Making this distinction is not wrong but wisdom as we are living in a different part of the world and also in a different time. Though some saints can differ with John MacArthur, I found many clear statements and Bible verses shared in this message that will benefit believers

Christians and Alcohol (Selected Scriptures) John MacArthur
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thXe-rtpl6U

I have no peace to encourage saints to drink "strong drink" which is the modern wines and beers in social settings. I believe a mixed-wine could be ok to drink with meals at times if this is part of someone's practice and importantly culture. I just do not see a parellel with modern america and modern liquor and beer companies.

Also during passover nothing of "leaven" was allowed and therefore no fermented grape juice ie wine.

I am not saying it is evil or sinful to drink "wine" (mixed) in the Bible times. I would say it is dangerous to be 100% liberty to drink all types of strong drinks in our day. We are enjoying what is the social ill of our day and rubbing shoulders with those addicted and destroyed by this element.

Maybe next time a "saint" goes to a liquor store or beer store they should evangelize those fellow patrons who are on the path of drunkenness and lack of knowing God.

Before I watch J Vernon Mghee (who I used to listen to on the way work), I'll say I have disagree with him more than once before

And Bear,
Piper isn't talking specifically about occasionally having a drink. He does however specifically address that issue. I think I mentioned that already. Otherwise, we can apply anything out of context anyone says (or a verse out of context) to whatever WE want to apply it too. Context, facts, specifics, etc. MATTER. A lot. You don't want to drink? Praise God! You want me to feel guilty for having a glass of wine with my wife at dinner on a date? You got a tough road ahead of heaping that weight on my back. Just being honest.

proudpapa on 2016/8/11 17:37:15

RE: ///A very KEY statement: Do not let another man rule over your conscience.

You will surely displease the Lord as you let a man come between you and the Lord. He is a jealous God.///

That is the issue at hand, Men do not trust the Lord working in the lives of other men, so they take there own convictions and try to impose them on others, and than it becomes difficult to distingush between what is of the Lord and what is of man.

To allow other man to rule over your conscience is as feminist and unnatural as a man with long hair. and yet church history is a history of men ruling over each other , it is also a history of fighting, killing and condeming of each other.

Yep, proudpapa, it is a religious spirit that seeks to control others and is a mark of the cults. To seek to dominate what a person believes or thinks, and make them get approval from man is demonic.

.
Brother I'm speaking of a church in America that is going worldly in the midst of darkness. And I'm also speaking of a faith remnant bride that God is calling out to be holy as unto Him.
But also a remnant that is living a crucified life as unto him.

There is coming a time when we will have to deal with the lawful and crucify it at the cross. I believe God will require that if we are to be holy as unto Him.

The Holy Spirit will bring us to the cross. How we respond to the cross will be up to us. And our flesh will rebell. Brother your issue is not with me. But it will be between the Holy Spirit and you.

Respectfully posted.

I was surprised with the clarity that this message goes over the point I have been making over and over towards wine being different today then in biblical times.

It is well worth watching to become informed. I am not saying the message is infallible but with many points I found it hard to be contradicted.

Has anyone taken the time to watch this?

Christians and Alcohol (Selected Scriptures) John MacArthur
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thXe-rtpl6U

it is a religious spirit that seeks to control others and is a mark of the cults. To seek to dominate what a person believes or thinks, and make them get approval from man is demonic.

This is actually false-reasoning and not Biblical as there are clear admonitions that need to be applied to our personal lives from the Scriptures and to "underline" these warnings and admonitions is not controlling or abusive (cult). I have not told believers "not" to ever touch wine as it is clear in the Scriptures it was used in even the Lord's Supper. the question I would underline would be: Is the wine in the Bible the same as wine today? I do not believe this is semantics but rather reality.

It only takes a few cups of modern wine to show signs of lose of self-control, where in Biblical times to have a few glasses of a diluted mixture of which wine was, would not cause drunkenness or signs of its approaching.

I do not want to add to the cultural approval amongst modern pastors of encouraging people to drink, as this is a new phenomenon. What is wrong with the caution rather then hearty approval? Or some pastors going as far as repenting to their people that they did not start drinking sooner?

This has not been a repeated subject on the forums but it is well-worth to be raised. Again I am not personally judging brethren but airing a clear caution in the current evangelical situation we are in towards alcohol and its modern usage amongst believers, hence my posting the sermon by David Wilkerson.

Greg, there is no hidden meaning here.

Preaching and teaching the Word from a heart submitted to God is not characterized as "seeking to control others" or trying to "dominate their thought or speech" or letting men "rule over your conscience."

it is a religious spirit that seeks to control others and is a mark of the cults. To seek to dominate what a person believes or thinks, and make them get approval from man is demonic.

I was commenting on something narrowpath said and it was perfectly in line with his comment when he said, "don't let other men rule over your conscience".

My comment has nothing to do with anything you have said.

Bear,
The implied accusation at the bottom of your post is noted. I'm not offended, but I just think the baseline thinking is off. Scripture (in context) doesn't bear up what you're selling. You feel that way - great. Implied accusations that I'm not sold out to the Lord, obedient to the Holy Spirit, or willing to die & carry my cross because I have a glass of wine with my wife is accusational & unfounded. And I have asked a dozen important questions based on scripture in context & real world experience that have gone totally ignored and unanswered. That shows the reach of the argument to me. A contract lawyer who is a believer I spent time getting to know in Israel said that he's learned in court that lawyers who go on and on and don't answer the questions at hand, but keep distracting & going on with endless other things do that because they don't have the good, solid evidence. They have reaches. He said the same can be true in theological hermeneutical scriptural discussions. When I pose multiple questions & examples in scripture clearly about alcohol (not something general that anyone can apply to whatever they want to make a case for or against anything they want), it tells me that the case is not solid Biblically. It just isn't. How many gallons of this almost grape juice did the apostles drink in Acts 2? Or how many gallons did they drink in Corinth at the Lord's Supper to get drunk? Or how am I not running as well when I have a glass of Cabernet at dinner with my wife? Or why isn't there just a total prohibition in scripture? Or why was Jesus accused of being a drunkard if he never drank wine? Or why did Jesus turn water into wine of all things if having some in moderation is "missing the mark" ie sin? Or why would Paul instruct Timothy to drink a little wine (& record it in scripture) if that in itself was sinful? On and on. But no one answers these questions directly because they can't. Only straw men, blowing out my position to say it's something it isn't, & scripture "proof-texts" used out of their context and original meaning/intent. And then imposition of guilt & implied accusations that I'm not willing to carry my cross. As Ravenhill used to say: "That's Balderdash"! If the Lord, not a man with a Legalistic argument, speaks to me to never have a glass ever, I will. But I won't then go on a mission to eradicate all responsible, moderate, private drinking for all other adult believers in the world. No, I won't. I have seen the ugly face of legalism & regrets in the rear view mirror years later. I have seen the damage both licentiousness & legalism can do.
God Bless,
Jeff

- Part of John Calvin's salary was paid each year in a great number of casks of alcoholic wine.

- Martin Luther clearly, and frequently, enjoyed mugs of beer/ale and glasses of wine.

ӬӬ- John Wesley had ministers sometimes partially paid in portions of rum.ӬӬ

- The Puritan pilgrims found one of the primary reasons to get off the Mayflower was that they had run short of beer. One of their first tasks they undertook was to establish a brewery. In fact a great percentage of the cargo brought with the pilgrims was beer for themselves!

I alluded to in past posts that "state-run churches" such as Calvin, Luther, Anglican church and Catholic Church would allow drinking to a shocking degree. But all other serious minded remnant groups throughout Church History abstained from the excessed allowed under larger Church systems that tried to tie in the culture and the church together as one whole.

The John Wesley statement is wrong, he was clearly against rum and slavery, history and his sermons easily prove that.

towards the puritans on the mayflower, I am not an expert on the puritan movement. It seems beer was on the mayflower, exactly what puritan believers came across in the mayflower I am not sure of but this is common knowledge in that day:

"Beer was a dietary mainstay in those days. Chances are the beverage in question was "ship's beer," a not-very-alcoholic concoction that, along with the even weaker "small beer," was drunk in formidable quantities during the colonial era (upwards of a quart per day seems to have been a typical ration). Undoubtedly an advantage was that, unlike more perishable foodstuffs, ship's beer would keep during long voyages and, having been boiled, was likely purer than ordinary water." from: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2625/did-the-pilgrims-land-on-plymouth-rock-because-they-ran-out-of-beer

So it was not what modern beer or wine is today. Again proving my main over-arching point trying to be expressed.

My passion to share these things saints is not to win an argument or debate but rather make a stand for righteousness questioning the free use of any type of modern alcohol in our day. I believe this would be a danger to the saints and expressly is as we hear of and know many believers and pastors falling into over-use of alcohol in our day.

TMK - good point. Who drinks gallons of any fluid? Which would be necessary to get drunk if it only had a trace amount of alcohol as some claim.

Solomon - thank you for bringing balance. I thank God for #1 (Food), #2 (Sex) & #3 (an occasional glass of red wine). I enjoy all 3. I don't need to overeat, get drunk, or have sex outside of covenant marriage, but I am greatful for the gifts God gave to man in these.

I appreciate people's devotion to not drink (or fast, or be celibant), but I don't appreciate legalism & scriptures out of context to impose "law" of ones conscience on others. Not one bit.

I respect your position & hear your heart Greg.

I didnt get involved in this thread to "win an argument" or whatever either, but to make sure we are rightly dividing the Word of truth & not trying to bend the scriptures (or revise history) to try to invoke purity/righteousness. I think what the Word IS CLEAR on in context is sufficient for that.

God Bless you,
Jeff

Very good Dave, all in the context of culture. America is known to be insular so perhaps some do not understand this aspect.

Hi everyone,
I left SI forums some time back but thought I would pop back in to say hi, if that's ok?

Brother Greg, this is an extremely important topic and I am glad you raised it. I sense lots of folks are missing the point of why you raised this and where your heart is at.

We have a huge, huge problem with alcoholism. Social drinking is being rammed down the throats of the young in advertising etc from the moment they can watch television and observe the adults around them. Currently I have a friend staying on my property who just graduated from an alcohol and drug rehab center. He started drinking socially when he was 15 years old and remained an alcoholic for the next 25 years. At first he thought he could control it but he really enjoyed the buzz that alcohol gives and kept drinking it on a regular basis. Eventually that buzz would turn into full blown drunkeness. When I found him he was on his way to an early death...drinking himself to unconsciousness every night. Today to the glory of God, he is sober and full of the Lord Jesus. He told me last week that he will never touch a drop of alcohol again for as long as he lives. I believe him. Its not an option. It is poison he says. Why drink poison in moderation? What good can come of this? Ever?

My wife and I have never drunk socially. But we would drink a margarita once or twice a year at a Mexican restaurant. We drank them for one and only one reason. The buzz. That is all. I am willing to bet that 99.999% of christians who drink do it for that same reason. I have no proof, thats just what my gut tells me from talking to a lot of people about why they drink alcohol.

I am not saying that drinking is a sin...but I do believe it is foolish and leaves the door open for satan. This is my opinion and I am not stating doctrine. Our example to our kids and to those around us who struggle with alcohol or other substance abuse is very important to the Lord. We may be able to justify our position legally and theologically but with the epidemic and rampant problem with alcohol and drug abuse today, it strikes me as odd that the Lord would sanction this in the church today among believers?

I realize our stand is unpopular today and I realize that many would consider us legalistic but the Lord knows our hearts. God bless you all, not sure if I will have much more to say on this or be able spend much time on the forums. Stay the course and keep Jesus number one!!!

Quote from Brenda:

In Germany they are much more family centred and do not spend their time in pubs getting a skin full like they do in my country. It is a small glass and maybe two of a healthful drink, containing b vitamins because of traditional brewing, with a meal, and that's it. No association with being a degenerate and not high levels of abuse l would imagine.

Nudity is the same. It is not associated with lust like here or in the US. In Germany it is about healthy sunbathing and swimming and people are naked in lakes with no one turning a blind eye to it. Even the young lads are not googling.

from Greg: Sister,

Absolutely not! European cultures are anti-christ and debased and typify Romans 1 as America is quickly following in. There is nothing virtuous in the above mentioned practice of swimming, this is sin and wickedness. When mankind becomes so used to sin they go further and further until nothing is out of bounds. We wonder why there are laws against having sex with animals in the old Testament this is because mankind's heart is desperately wicked and full of perversion and evils.

When we reason in this way it worldly wisdom and not considering the Holy Scriptures we need to go back to what is God's standard and not a debased cultures standard of right and wrong.

Nudity and lack of modesty is sinful, corrupt and it corrupts others. God is against it. Cultural use of smoking certain types of natural weeds, plants in cultures all across the world is wrong also and in many cases a "high" feeling comes from this illegal practice.

For the entire history of mankind we can see that the wicked and unbelievers delve into these practices and the righteous and believers abstain and stay away from them.

Is our conscience hardened as believers that we cannot discern between the holy and profane, towards things that are wrong and things that are good. In any cultural especially european drunkenness is epidemic. The cultural practice has catered to and allowed sins to abound.

The Scriptures are clear we must be very careful with wine and its cause of destruction of many is evident. The modern believer and preacher does not have such a view and I have rarely heard a message warning of the ills of drinking though it is one of the main causes of sin in North America. Perhaps revival will not come until we start uncovering the rocks of "cultural" sin that is accepted by unbelievers and believers alike.

Paul the Apostle as led by the Holy Spirit clearly rebukes people for their culturally accepted sins which in the kingdom of God was not to be accepted:

Titus 1:12 New International Version (NIV)

12 One of Crete’s own prophets has said it: "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.”

I personally cannot with a good conscience walk into a liquor store with all the unbelievers who are mostly buying these strong drinks to become drunk and inebriated.

Dear brother

You must have missed my post that said that I was in no way condoning the practise of nude swimming. Believers must dress modestly.

What these Europeans are practising in this regard is not for the purposes of lust, and recognised as such in the culture. As such even the young men are used to it and do not stand watching the women and on the beaches of other countries where they sun bathe topless. The health movement by tradition has been very strong in these countries for a long time but that is not to say that sinful practices take place though I do believe that rape and underage pregnancies are far less common in the European mainland

It is in other countries like America and the UK where nakedness is associated with lust but Christians are not to go by their cultures but by the word of God and modesty is the way for them.

All countries are debassed and anti-Christ and so is America. They have not been misled by the rest of the world, they have always been so, with a small minority belonging to Christ.

Drunkeness is the same in very country but in the UK we have a long held reputation for it hence the reported gin-palaces in Wesley's day. It is only here and in your country that alcohol drinking amongst Christians is frowned upon, but less so these days. It is also in these countries where you find extremes of legalism as has been demonstrated on this thread.

Legalistic Christians should also be as strict over the consumption of sugar as it is deady to our bodies and the many obese believers preaching that I have seen on you tube etc should be warned about too.

Surely one does not have to go to liquor stores to buy the odd small bottle of beer or wine? Our grocery stores sell it and loads of trollys contain bottles of alcoholic drinks.

The reason why Christians must take care so as not to appear to be of a low moral character only applies in the UK and America and not in European countries where that is not so and apparently in Turkey.

I wish someone would answer Jeff's questions.

"That is a very sad judgmental statement..."

You missed the entire point of my post and focused on my math:-) Please insert a more appropriate percentage and then reread the rest of the post.

My "gut" tells me that I am not that much different to most believers who like to have a drink or two here and there. Alcohol in all its forms is sold not as a refreshing beverage but as a beverage that will give you a buzz. It loosens you up and the light headed feeling is somewhat euphoric, even in the beginning stages. There are a multitude of beverages that are more refreshing and much better tasting than alcohol. There is only one reason to make alcohol and to sell it. For its addictive qualities. What makes it addictive is the "feeling" of warmth and light headedness that you get from it. This "feeling" will take you back for more. When I used to drink those margeritas I absolutely loved that feeling. It was awesome. It was also very scary to me that I loved that feeling so much. I was a hairs breath away from going to far. In fact I am not even sure how far is too far to be honest. My wife and I would look forward to going to the mexican restaurant, and not for the food, but for the "feeling" we would get from just one margarita. We did not get drunk but the alcohol did something to us and we were starting to become "addicted" to that experience, even though we would not get drunk. We had opened a door and today I am grateful that the Lord showed me the danger of that door and helped us close it good and tight.

My advice to young people is "stay away from that door"...better to just not ever open that door, it is just not worth it.

My "gut" tells me that 99.999% of christians who enjoy the light headed buzz that they get from even a small quantity of alcohol are not willing to admit that they drink it for this reason though:-)

[edited for clarity]

That's wrong. When I allow myself a drink like at Christimas, but rarely, even though I am aged and very sick, I do not get a buzz from one glass and have never even liked that effect. One glass with a meal adds to the enjoyment of the taste of the meal especially if it is a well chosen wine. I think most Christians are like me in that regard and think that your comment was judgemental too I am afraid.

Brenda and Dave, my comments are about the dangers of drinking alcohol and my sense is that the vast majority of christians who drink, do it for the buzz. If that does not apply to you guys and others on SI then thats awesome. Perhaps the Holy Spirit will bring others to this thread and speak to their hearts about this issue in their lives as He spoke to my wife and I. If this doesn't apply to you, there is no need to justify your choice at all. Who are you trying to convince? What you do is between you and the Lord and I am not judging you. Again, I am speaking to those believers who like me enjoyed the buzz. I am also speaking to those who may need to consider if their liberty might in fact be a stumbling block to others like my friend, the former alcoholic. Again, what you do is your business, no need to defend it here.

by Heydave on 2016/8/12 6:38:13

This discussion shows me how far removed US Evangelical Christianity is from the biblical Christianity of Christ and the Apostles. It's has become all about outward rules rather than righteousness, peace and joy within.

Self-righteousness and judging unrighteously is far more destructive than Christians enjoying their liberty in Christ in private. It also prevents many from entering the Kingdom of God.

--------------------
This discussion shows me how far removed US Evangelical Christianity is from the biblical Christianity of Christ and the Apostles. It's has become all about outward rules rather than righteousness, peace and joy within.
--------------------

Indeed. The only place I see where true biblical Christianity is being practice is in restricted Nations such as North Korea or Eritrea. Somehow I don't think this discussion would come up in the persecuted Church.

.
Brother welcome to the minority view here. I think other than yourself and Greg I have been one of the ones reasoning we must lay the lawful, permissable down at the cross.

Not a popular view here. But then I don't think the cross is too popular either.

Thanks brother, its good to be back, although I sense it won't be for very long lol.

heydave,
I am more than willing to be labelled as conceited and judgmental if my testimony saves even one person from stumbling:-)

Regarding my post I do not believe I have mentioned anyone else lifestyles choice on this forum so I am puzzled at the backlash? I have only mentioned my own particular choices and the way and reasons why I believe God dealt with me.

If my post states or suggests in any way that Christianity is "all about outward rules rather than righteousness, peace and joy within", then please point this out to me.

I actually made the point that I do not believe that drinking alcohol is a sin and I also stated that I do not judge those who do.

I am surprised at the reaction of some...perhaps this is something that the Lord might be dealing with them about? Why else would they feel so strongly about defending their position on alcohol? So, if that is you and I say "if" God is dealing with you about this liberty you have, then go to Him about it and work it out with Him directly. It will not matter a hill of beans if you convince the world of your theological correctness in this matter if the Holy Spirit is telling you to stop.

"Self-righteousness and judging unrighteously is far more destructive than Christians enjoying their liberty in Christ in private."

Agreed, which is why it is unwise to talk about our private liberties on a public forum. Little ones are watching us. What we do and what we say matters. Living responsibly and wisely matters to the Lord and should not be confused with self-righteousness, legalism, conceit and judgmentalism.

I did not start this thread and I do not necessarily agree with everything David Wilkerson says but I have a testimony to share on this subject. I thought it would help others and never considered for a moment I would get such backlash. But then this is SI forums after all, I should have known better:-)

Maybe we should post warning signs at the top of the forums...enter at own risk:-)

I don't fully disagree with all the points raised by some posters concerning alchohol's potential dangers. I don't fully disagree with the comment that such a matter of private Liberty issues of conscience between a man and the HS might not should be hashed out on a public forum lest someone stumble who reads it. I get it. Why I didn't post the OP, why I responded, but then pulled it & responded privately by email, & why even as this conversation went on admittedly reluctantly.

But the reason I felt it necessary to do so was because going beyond the scriptures (& even in direct opposition to some of them, adding to or twisting them, using verses out of their full context as "proof-texts" though misapplied - eisogesis) is also very dangerous. I have been judged personally before by brethren who thought they were being spiritual, but really were just being critical, judgmental, & spiritually nit-picking. I have been around people in the years past who came from United Pentacostal Churches & in circles where legalism was rampant, the scriptures were added to or "over-interpreted" & "over(mis)-applied" & they were the "holy police" in a way not any different than the Pharisees who accused Jesus. Some of them it took years to see their blind spots, to rightly divide the truth, & to break free from the self-delusion that such pride & self-righteousness had on all their thinking & interpreting of things. It was VERY harmful to them & those around them. And a TERRIBLE witness & a TOTAL turnoff to the lost, weak, & young in the faith. I myself have fallen to such sinful attitudes of being hyper-critical or going beyond the scriptures & shoehorning someone or something into the sin category that God alone will make a final, righteous judgment on. This is why you have seen before when I have mentioned a prophetic ministry on SI here (not some Creflo Dollar or Paula White apostate stuff, but real ministers) & people attacked them as wolves because once they sold something on a website, I was QUICK to denounce such judgemental, unrighteous judgement that disguises itself as "discernment" (people misuse that word and especially what they think that gift is these days) but is really just prideful arrogance.
And I tried to be crystal clear about my life and high view of holiness. That straw man argument that "eventually it leads to all kinds of other gross detestable sins" (ones the scriptures are clear on and calls sin) doesn't hold weight. That's like the Pharisees' reasoning in not taking care of their parents because money was dedicated to the temple, or trying to trap Jesus, or calling him a wine-bibber and a glutton, or whatever. And I asked LOADS of good, solid, Biblical, historical, fair & reasonable common sense questions that still no one has answered.
Again, I agree more BIBLICAL teaching and preaching should be done on the ills of drunkeness, the warnings on alchohol usage, etc. And I agree attacking or defending the liberty of moderate private use of it under Christian Liberty shouldn't be the topic of a public forum necessarily, but the can of worms was open already and legalism, adding to the word, revising history, ignoring common sense (like how someone could get drunk if it was only trace amounts of alchohol in Acts 2, 1 Corinthians, etc.), etc. to keep driving a narrative isn't actually helpful IMHO. It doesn't make a stronger argument for avoiding alchohol. It actually makes a weaker case for the faith honestly. Someone saying "I have decided in Leiu of the potential dangers for me, & not wanting others to stumble, that Christ is worthy of my putting it away completely". That is a testimony! But when someone gets into stretching the scriptures beyond what they actually say, using them out of context, denying history/scriptural examples/common sense, & then riding that horse full steam ahead and accusing any detractors of being compromised, backslidden, in danger of sin potential apostates, it sounds more like a Phariseeiacal religious spirit of show than a calm, peaceable, reasonable, gentle, loving, Grace-filled message of true inner purity. Not saying there may not be some good intent in the seed behind it, just saying it gets lost in the mix & the internal buzzers go off & the Pharisses' manner of handling the Word & the traditions & doctrines of men get in the way. And on SI sometimes it happens where threads get shut down on an important clear matter of the scriptures, but then a thread is opened & goes on about something the scriptures simply do not clearly teach (teetotalism) which is a bit baffling to me? Well, anyways, I really didn't want to get involved in this thread, but I know personally first hand that legalistic phriseeiacal attitudes & eisogesis are just as (if not more) dangerous than yes, even alchohol. How do I know that? Because it was Pharisees who trapped & crucified the Lord of Glory, not alcoholics, or especially not those who occasionally had a glass of wine. Phariseeiacal, self-righteous, hyper-critical, scripture twisting & misapplying set-righteous religious pride is actually the biggest danger to the soul & the church. Licentiousness is right there with it, but this thread is really started, stated & about none of those things. It's about whether or not someone can have an occasional "sip" of alchohol in private (so as not to cause others to stumble), responsibly, etc. and I don't flaunt and waive my Liberty in others' faces (but felt this was already opened up and the potential legalism should be addressed) - FYI. If I have an open bottle of wine at home (which often I get a single glass and sits on the shelf for a month and goes bad), I put it away out of sight of people come over so it doesn't cause them to stumble. I don't bring these things up unless among the leadership who are mature, balanced, stable, and able to have the discussion peaceably & from the scriptures & experience. If anyone is able to answer all of my previous questions from the scriptures, I'm still all ears and willing to be open to change my position on these things. Totally.

And all the added "I suspect" suspicions of what is and isn't the motive behind just defending the positions from the scriptures bear out what I'm saying too. "I suspect" I know how the HS is dealing with someone because they just want to have a discussion from what we have (& don't have) in the Word of God? Let's just stick to the actual scriptures, questions posed, & what is actually being said & not our "suspicions", ok?

I put this in another thread but it was actually meant for this one.

The perspective from our European brethren has been very helpful. This does not seem to be an area in which they struggle with legalism.

What these Europeans are practising in this regard is not for the purposes of lust, and recognised as such in the culture. As such even the young men are used to it and do not stand watching the women and on the beaches of other countries where they sun bathe topless. The health movement by tradition has been very strong in these countries for a long time but that is not to say that sinful practices take place though I do believe that rape and underage pregnancies are far less common in the European mainland

The perspective from our European brethren has been very helpful. This does not seem to be an area in which they struggle with legalism.

The perspective that sin is more accepted in our country is terrible! Nudity is wrong and imagine if everyone did the same in America and everyone was so used to it that no one "lusted"? I am sorry sister but this is just not true. It is worldly wisdom and shows how de-sensitive some countries can become to the vileness and evil of sin, their conscious is seared with many hot irons. No wonder drinking high-percentage alcohol is also normal.

Again comparing all historical drinking, it was always very low alcohol for normal consumption and of course strong drinks (higher percentage) were always around also but not the normal consumed quantity by normal everyday people. ie the wine at the Lord's supper was diluted and those in the Corinthians church took part in good share of it to become drunk.

If wine is 2% trust me saints you can still become drunk after drinking a litre or 2 of it. And of course people "do" consume that quantity. And it takes but 1-3 glasses of wine in our modern day to start the process of being out of "control" drunkenness.

I do not get a buzz from one glass and have never even liked that effect. One glass with a meal adds to the enjoyment of the taste of the meal especially if it is a well chosen wine.

If this is the reasoning alone then why would saints not choose non-alcholic wines?

Self-righteousness and judging unrighteously is far more destructive than Christians enjoying their liberty in Christ in private.

Brother, we are not talking about private freedoms we are talking about the popular notion from preachers and pulpits to encourage the consumption of alcohol in small quantities especially to young people as something fine and even good to do! Also to encourage social drinking as just fine and encouraging believers to consider it nothing wrong to jump over to any old pub and enjoy a beer! But imagine the atmosphere of sin we are encouraging young believers into, who could be swayed by the conversation of the wicked? It surely has happened before and is continuing to destroy the calling of God on believers.

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This discussion shows me how far removed US Evangelical Christianity is from the biblical Christianity of Christ and the Apostles. It's has become all about outward rules rather than righteousness, peace and joy within.
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Indeed. The only place I see where true biblical Christianity is being practice is in restricted Nations such as North Korea or Eritrea. Somehow I don't think this discussion would come up in the persecuted Church.

It is a grieve to my heart to even have to raise it but on Facebook and other mediums seeing young believers justifying and arguing for alcohol consumption propelled me into taking a stance at least once on this issue for the sake of other believers. I personally am not making strict rules from this but rather encouraging saints to re-consider and think of the issue and find God's heart in the danger of modern wines and beers as even potentially more dangerous then alcohol in the Bible times as not "all" drinking was strong drinks in the Bible times, but today they are.

Jesus did not have to drink alcoholic wine, but he did, and he did so publicly. and he was wrongly called a winebiber for it.

If he did, it was lower alcohol percentage 0.5%-3% maximum and he would not have over-drank. Modern wine has double the amount or much more. So we should not take 100% liberty to start drinking as nothing is wrong as we could fall into great danger. I am not against saints with meals drinking a very diluted wine at some meals but again that could even become a snare! May God give His people wisdom.

I think of Perry Noble a mega church pastor that preached on freedom for drinking and encouraged all his 15,000+ people to drink freely, it did not take long for Perry to become a drunkard and struggle greatly with this sin and ended up being fired from the pastorate and now is in a recovery centre.

Thank you saints for in most cases remaining quite civil and peace-making in this discussion as it does carry importance. Please do refrain from judging people as being conceited with their comments and let us deal with the facts and what the Scriptures say.

Men always have and always will drink, to relieve the pain of their lives and just telling them that it is a sin is not going to change them. Remember Prohibition?

Paul did not tell his followers not to drink - he gave them an alternative - be filled with the Spirit. He only said not to get drunk.

If the Holy Spirit tells a man not to drink then that is great. He has told me not to drink at times, like when my husband was drinking a lot.

Why you keep on saying that nudity is wrong Greg I don't know. I have never said it was okay.

I don't go along with the theory that wine was less strong in those times.

It was used in pagan ceremonies and if it was the case that gallons of it had to be drunk in order to become drunk, then that would leave the participants of the ceremonies including debauchery, not in a very fit state, with so much liquid swilling around inside of them and having to go to the Greek toilets every few minutes. Another point that does not stand to reason.

Some verses related to Wine

Ephesians 5:18 - And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Ecclesiastes 9:7 - Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

Proverbs 23:29-35 - Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

1 Timothy 5:23 - Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Proverbs 20:1 - Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Romans 14:21 - [It is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Proverbs 31:6 - Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

Isaiah 5:22 - Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Isaiah 5:11 - Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, [that] they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, [till] wine inflame them!

John 2:1-11 - And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

Genesis 9:20 - And Noah began [to be] an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

Proverbs 23:20-21 - Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:

Psalms 104:14-15 - He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

Galatians 5:19-21 - Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness...

Mark 14:25 - Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:12 - All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Proverbs 21:17 - He that loveth pleasure [shall be] a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich.

Proverbs 31:4-7 - [It is] not for kings, O Lemuel, [it is] not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink

Isaiah 28:7 - But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble [in] judgment.

Luke 21:34 - And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares.

1 Peter 4:3 - For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revelling, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

No church I have been to said anythng about alcohol and I cannot recall any problems over it. Some Christians drank moderately and some did not but there was no big fuss made about it or even mention of it at all. Church gatherings of the Anglican sort usually supply some bottles of wine and no-one usually takes more than one glass and a lot do not take any. I know some Baptist churches would frown on that.

Who here would have accused Jesus of being a winebibber?

Who here would have chastised Paul for encouraging Timothy to drink some wine?

Why would someone list the negative verses on wine without listing the positive verses? Hmmm.

By the way, wine gives me a headache and makes my neck hurt so I am not defending wine, but let's be honest with the Word.

http://www.naturalnews.com/022739_wine_alcohol_chemicals.html

"It is not defending "our" position on alcohol, rather it is defending scripture's position on alcohol, just as we would defend any other point of scripture."

Hi brother Todd,
I have not used scripture at all, just attempting to bring another angle to this which seems to me to be common sense.

And I am not referring only to people on SI...I am talking about most christians today. This christian liberty of drinking alcohol is defended vigorously. I say if thats what you want to do, go for it. But the caveat here is that even if you win the scriptural argument on this, there is still the very important matter of the law of love.

If we wanted to solve this problem scripturally then since the scriptures are silent on smoking weed, lets all just light up and go for it:-) I am sure there are clever people on this forum who would win the weed argument using scripture too.

But what is the Holy Spirit saying to believers in 21st century America? We have a terrible problem in society with alcohol and drugs. Is God encouraging us to walk as close to the edge as we can without falling over or should we stay as far away from the edge as possible in order to be an example to the young and the weak?

This discussion doesn't have to be about defending scripture or opposing legalism. Why can't we simply come at this from the point of view of loving others and determining that in our lives we will never, ever be a stumbling block to anyone with regard to societal vices?

Why can't we come at this from a spirit of excellence, choosing to forgo our liberties for the sake of the Lord? Is that so hard to do? Or are we so in love with our liberties that we cannot give them up? I am not talking about what we do in private by the way, I am talking about public, social drinking which is now the new normal for Christians in the 21st century.

Anyway, I never meant to come across as conceited or self-righteous but if any of you felt that from me I apologize.

Was Jesus a winebibber? A drunkard? He was accused of that. Is that what we are saying? Are we saying that He was drinking wine and getting buzzed, lightheaded...a little pickled but within moderation of course?

Somehow I cannot picture our Lord doing that.

I do picture Him associating with winebibbers though and thus being tarred with the same brush. "Guilty by association".

There is a huge difference between accusing Jesus of being a winebibber and Him actually being a winebibber.

WINEBIBBER
3630. oinopotes - a wine drinker, a drunkard. From oinos and a derivative of the alternate of pino; a tippler --
winebibber. see GREEK oinos. see GREEK pino. (oinopotes)

I was saying that the scriptures are silent on smoking weed. I think you may missed my point brother. Let me say this another way. Do you or others here believe that it is right or wrong for Christians to smoke weed today...in moderation of course?

Awakened, not saying Jesus was a drunkard. Saying that some in the Church would accuse him of being a backslidden Christian today if he was physically here and they did not know who he was.

Solomon, good post on the Corinthians.

Stiritup,

Paul told us in Romans 14 to do in private what might in public cause weaker brethren to stumble. It's not hypocrisy, it's love.

Well said David, now watch it continue as though you had said nothing.

Mature Christians are Christians who love and give no occasion for the weak to stumble. If you enjoy your liberty in Christ and have faith, no one wants to rob you of your liberty, just don't rob others of their faith by causing them to stumble.

True, PP.

It happens a lot, here.

A lot of manipulation in this thread.

True, PP.

To be honest brothers,

To respond in these ways to very thoughtful posts and testimonies is really just catering to blaming and accusing others. To accuse a brother of legalism or conceit or judging the motives is not proper.

In my heart I do not judge any brother or sister who drinks wine or beer in moderation.

If a thread on SermonIndex can fully rob your "liberty" then I would personally check in with the Lord to consider if this liberty is really from God. We must be honest with the Word of God in this day and not just accept what is popular and accepted in our Christian culture.

I know this topic can be something that is hard to deal with for some brethren, as this new found "liberty" has been expressed mostly in the last 20-30 years in the evangelical church, is essentially "new". I am not trying to rob you of this but I do feel a strong warning in my Spirit towards many younger brethren who are falling into sin in this area in the guise of liberty and everything is ok.

We should also ask ourselves why this is a new liberty in that most Christian groups there were serious with the Lord did not encourage alcohol social drinking. Especially amongst unbelievers. Why has this all of a sudden changed?

My major underling concern and I believe valid thought has been that the modern alcohol's spirits, liquors, beers and wines are "not" the same as the normal wine that the Scriptures speak of. There is a danger to consume the former in the same way the Bible speaks of consuming wine (which was a diluted or partially boiled in some cases so alcohol percentage was lower). This is not just my opinion but this is factual with many references in this thread and John Macarthur shares many in his video message.

I ask this in all seriousness:

Please pray to the Holy Spirit next time you are in a beer or liquor store, if God says it ok then do as you feel led of the Lord. Do also pray if you should give a witness for the Lord to the cashier or someone buying alcohol.

I am not supporting regular social drinking amongst Christians. In fact l think the less we drink the better and l believe that the latest research shows this. Alcohol is never good for the liver, although there are benefits to the heart from some red wines.

It is absolutely true that young believers are in danger of being misled. The trouble is that the arguments being used against drinking, are not robust. Scripture does not ban moderate drinking, and where is the proof that wine was much less potent in the past?

Give me a goats udder and l am confident that l could fashion an air lock of sorts. The Greeks, being epicures, must have stored well fermented wines from the best harvests for special occasions. They probably had to water down very strong drink.

Even though we might not like to see the increase of drinking that is going on, condemning it is not the answer. It only makes it more attractive. Sadly the uptight attitudes in the US over drinking, that served to limit it in the last, is now being discarded and a more relaxed attitude demanded.

The answer is revival is desperately needed. In Wales the pubs stood empty and had to close. A revived man does not desire alcohol. Instead of condemning something that refuses to be controlled, we must ask the question: why am l not in a state of revival myself and pouring out rivers of life unto others so that they are revived too?

Brenda,
Good post. I definitely echo your sentiments. This is such a minor subject to those following hard after God and filled with His Spirit. The answer is to be filled with the Spirit of God. If someone truly has the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, I trust the Holy Spirit to separate them from all that is not pleasing to the Lord. The very day I got saved I knew to stop getting drunk. In fact, I just stopped drinking altogether.

Have we forgotten how clear the Holy Spirit's voice can be to us or have we just grown dull of hearing?

I have no desire to preach do's and dont's to the religious but I do have a desire to reach them with the gospel that saves.

Brenda,
Good post. I definitely echo your sentiments. This is such a minor subject to those following hard after God and filled with His Spirit. The answer is to be filled with the Spirit of God. If someone truly has the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, I trust the Holy Spirit to separate them from all that is not pleasing to the Lord. The very day I got saved I knew to stop getting drunk. In fact, I just stopped drinking altogether.

Have we forgotten how clear the Holy Spirit's voice can be to us or have we just grown dull of hearing?

I have no desire to preach do's and dont's to the religious but I do have a desire to reach them with the gospel that saves.

I agree with preachers who feel inspired by the holy spirit to preach against drinking alcohol. Those people who need the message (group1) will be convicted by the holy spirit, and there will be some who won't be convicted, either because they do not have a problem (even though they do drink, group 2) or because they are not ready for the message (even though they do have a problem, group 3). Those who are convicted by the Holy Spirit will change from the INSIDE. This is the desired result of such preaching.
I heard ones Keith Daniel preaching about the work of the Holy Spirit, and he said that there are sometimes people who try to do this convicting work instead of the Holy Spirit. They do much damage. They try to push rules on these people. Group 1 may withdraw from repentance because free will is tainted by the strong controlling will of others, group 2 will have false condemnation, group 3 may pretentiously stop drinking but the change will be OUTWARDLY.
I don't think drinking alcohol is a sin, but I believe it weakens our ability to resist sin. This is my personal conviction (it applies to me and can not be applied to others). I was one of those christians who drank rarely, but when I did "I did it for the buzz". Couple years ago right after my personal revival, I felt an inner desire to be sober and vigilant. Much of my previous christian practice before was a little bit about mysticism which I wanted to leave behind. That's when I heard John MacArthur preaching about drinking. I did not want to give Satan a chance to deceive me and decided to drink only very small amounts and not for the "buzz". I kept that decision ever since.
A couple month ago I heard a Russian anti alcohol advocate on youtube professor Zhdanov which further changed my view about alcohol consumption. Since then I practically drink zero alcohol. I would like to share some of his points here since I could not find the English version of the presentation. (this is from health and social point of view not religious)
1. Alcohol is a poison to the body that not everyone can equally tolerate. Meditarranian people through generations got used to drinking wine and their body is able to process even a larger amount. Russians, Finnish people and other nations of the north such as Inuits can not tolerate alcohol and it is more deadly to them. Whole nations can be devastated by alcohol.
2. It varies from person to person which part of the brain becomes temporarily impared by drinking alcohol. One may think he is not impared, capable to talk, walk, drive a car normally, but a sudden irritation can bring about exreme impatience, rage, agression, and the person does things that he would never do without drinking.
3. Zhdanov is very much against the so called "social drinking" and "cultural drinking" (and so am I because in Hungary everyone says that it is a "culture" while those otherwise decent people are just simply getting drunk). The "culture" makes alcohol a part of everyday life and people from childhood think it's normal to drink and even to get drunk.
In Zhdanov's opinion the scientifically safe dose of alcohol for a Russian person is zero. (He did not apply it to other nations.) We also have heard about the effect of alcohol on unborn babies.

"Personally I don't think manipulation was too strong a word because the bible calls it witchcraft and we see that particular practice got Jesus jacked up more than anything else in scripture!!! "

And with this post the thread is now officially completely off the rails. What a pity. I lot of sincere people have poured their hearts out in a plea to the body of Christ to reconsider that the current 21st church attitude towards drinking might be wrong (not sinful, but wrong). In the "all things are lawful but not all things are profitable - wrong - kind of way".

And the best you can come up with brother is that they are speaking disgusting things and insinuating that they are practicing witchcraft? That Jesus would be very angry and jacked up with them?

I have been very blessed by your posts on this forum and never expected these words to come from you. It is very puzzling to say the least. The only thing I can conclude is that you are completely misunderstanding the hearts of those who are issuing these warnings.

I do not see witchcraft at operation here, I do not think that those who come at this with a different point of view are disgusting or being used by satan in any way. They just disagree with me and thats fine. But lets disagree with one another with kindness and common sense and refrain from bringing the game changing "nukes". There is no comeback to that. If you believe I am speaking from satan operating in witchcraft with my speach then how can we have any kind of discussion or fellowship for that matter?

Saints,

I am going to re-post part of what I wrote earlier in this thread and we are going to lock this thread now. There has been some profitable discussion but it has gone off into accusation and personal attacks. The issue was never about saints on SI as much as this is a bigger problem "enabling" young people, especially as its preached from pulpits and modern preachers that there is 100% liberty to drink all types of alcohol etc. My concern is here and I had to voice it. This is not a dead-horse I am beating nor am I making it a fixation on the forums, it has been just been brought up this one time. I hope some saints can see this concern.

I will repost what I shared before as even a heart-check for all of us:

---

I know this topic can be something that is hard to deal with for some brethren, as this new found "liberty" has been expressed mostly in the last 20-30 years in the evangelical church, is essentially "new". I am not trying to rob you of this but I do feel a strong warning in my Spirit towards many younger brethren who are falling into sin in this area in the guise of liberty and everything is ok.

We should also ask ourselves why this is a new liberty in that most Christian groups there were serious with the Lord did not encourage alcohol social drinking. Especially amongst unbelievers. Why has this all of a sudden changed?

My major underling concern and I believe valid thought has been that the modern alcohol's spirits, liquors, beers and wines are "not" the same as the normal wine that the Scriptures speak of. There is a danger to consume the former in the same way the Bible speaks of consuming wine (which was a diluted or partially boiled in some cases so alcohol percentage was lower). This is not just my opinion but this is factual with many references in this thread and John Macarthur shares many in his video message.

I ask this in all seriousness:

Please pray to the Holy Spirit next time you are in a beer or liquor store, if God says it ok then do as you feel led of the Lord. Do also pray if you should give a witness for the Lord to the cashier or someone buying alcohol.

---

This thread is locked.

I left the SI forums some months ago after a hiatus of some years. One of the main reasons was the difficulty in having fruitful discussions that edify the body of Christ. This is an internet forum so it would be almost a miracle to see that happen here compared to say in a real life situation where you build community and have fellowship around the Lord face to face. But it does happen from time to time, I am sure, which is encouraging.

So with that said I wanted to reiterate something I have said before and in this forum I am sure some of you might take offense and call it "manipulation" or some other strong word because you do not agree with my words. But I want those of you who take offense at my position to consider for a moment that we lived in community with each other, say perhaps in a house church. Lets imagine that this discussion came up in that setting.

So now in our house church I have gone out and helped the Lord rescue a brother dying from alcoholism. Drinking himself senseless every night. And he goes through rehab and exits victorious and set free in Christ. And he tells us all that he will never touch another drop of alcohol in his life. And you and I are a part of that same house church. And we like a beer or wine or two here from time to time. And we have no issue with christians drinking socially as is now the new normal in the 21st century.

What do we do in such a situation? This brothers and sisters is the backdrop of EVERYTHING I have said on this thread.

And I believe that is the motivation of brother Greg and others too, but I can certainly sense that in what brother Greg is saying.

Perhaps you believe that all of this is just manipulation...but to what end brothers? Why would I want to manipulate you? What would I gain lol? Do you think I want to stop you drinking socially...to Lord if over you and get a notch on my belt that I "won an internet fight" lol.

If that is how I have come across I sincerely apologize. As far as I am concerned I only have one thing that matters to me...how my liberties affect the weaknesses in my brothers and sisters in the body of Christ. That is it. And I do agree with others here that this should extend FAR beyond just drinking alcohol but lets not open up all those doors or we will really make a mess of this thread.

Much love to you all brothers and sisters, my this day be one of joy and peace in the Lord Jesus Christ.