The Christian and Alcohol by John MacArthur

John MacArthur

at 1:02:40 "The purpose of mixing the wine with water was to sanitize the water , thats really whats going on , to make the water safe cause you can not live without water. no one can."

1:06:55 "I live in a sanitary world, I don't live in the world they lived in,I dont have any need for that, It was neccassary than it is not neccassary now.

If MacArthurs conclusion was correct than everyone in Biblical times would have had to drink Wine (because it was neccassary), but the Bible clearly teaches otherwise: John the Baptist did not drink,, others vowed to not drink, thus proving it was not neccassary back than, anymore than it is neccassary today.

edit: for clarity

RE: ///Water was mainly brought up from wells when needed (the woman at the well)///

His entire foundation for his arguement crumbles in the light of Scripture.

Then the Question is left why did Jesus choose to drink alcholic wine ?

I do not doubt that wine was mixed with water to "sterilize" it. It would make the water taste nasty but so be it.

But regular wine (9-16% alcohol content) was doubtlessly used as well, particularly at festive occasions. Again, the NT's admonitions against drunkenness only make sense if people were actually getting drunk- and they were. Paul said they were showing up to the communion feast to get drunk. He told them to drink at home. (1 Cor. 11:21-22)

To suggest that Jesus turned water into Welches absolutely cannot be squared with the context of that whole narrative.

RE: ///It is conjecture that everyone Jesus created or drank wine that it was alcoholic///

It is not conjecture it is clear : "The Son of man is come eating and drinking:"

add: conjecture is what Macarthurs sermon was filled with

8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have "well drunk", then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

the phrase well "drunk" methuo means to drink to intoxication

I don't see how there is any way to determine the alcohol content of wine in Jesus' day. However, we do know that it had an effect on those who drank it. Peter was accused of being drunk on the day of Pentecost. The people at the wedding feast, as just posted by proudpapa, were at least buzzed to the point of having their senses somewhat dulled, and apparently this was commonplace at celebrations.

However, none of the arguments above speaks to whether it is good for a particular person in a particular culture to consume alcoholic beverages. And the issue is certainly not the blatant sinfulness of the action itself, as the New Testament does not speak in any way of God placing a prohibition on the consumption of a drink with alcoholic content.

I believe the topic is covered in great detail and clarity in 1 Corinthians 8. It is my understanding that in most European cultures, if a man claims to be a Christian and consumes wine at a meal, the non-believers will see absolutely no inconsistency. As long as his consumption is not in excess, the believer would not damage his witness to the non-believer at all by his liberty. Brenda, perhaps you can correct me if this observation is wrong.

However, in the USA, something very different is true. If I were to stop random unbelievers on the street and ask them their opinion of a man who claims to be a Christian and yet drinks an occasional beer, they would, much more often than not, claim that the man is a hypocrite and denounce his drinking as wrong.

So, in the USA, a believer consuming alcohol might very well offend a non-believer or a weak believer and cause that person to reject Christ or to stumble and fall. This is reason enough to say that an American believer should abstain.

Is this a takeoff of the other thread, or does this one have a different agenda?

by MrBillPro
Is this a takeoff of the other thread, or does this one have a different agenda?

Here's something that was written in a similar thread years ago, I cannot say it any better so I will simply copy the post here;

The thing I'm getting at is that a candy bar may be destructive to me, to the effect that it defiles my conscience if I eat it in disobedience to God's inner working in my life. If the Lord has been dealing with me on health issues; on excessive weight gain, dangerous blood-sugar levels, etc. and has regulated my intake of junk food as a result, my eating of the candy bar will defile my temple through disobedience. Another person may eat the same chocolate bar and not experience the pang of God's correction. God works with us on a case-by-case basis with these things.

But with alcohol and cigarettes, we run into a much more complicated issue. If an unbeliever observes me eating a chocolate bar, he will think nothing of it (even if I am disobeying God while I eat it), but if the same unbeliever observes me drink a beer or light up a cigarette, a check will immediately go off in his/her heart (even if I am drinking and smoking to my own preserved conscience). Unbelievers intrinsically know that real Christians should not smoke or drink - not even ocassionally. Don't ask me why or how this is - it's just the stark reality of how this world operates.

Did you know that the only way a person can leave certain notorious gangs (without being killed through the "blood-out" law), is by an open confession to Christianity? But there's a catch: the converted member is closely monitored. If he or she is seen smoking or drinking, a hit is put out on them. They are considered fake Christians, and all deals for their safety are off.

This is how the world, controlled by Satan, sees the influence of tobacco and alcohol and how hypocritical it can make professed believers to appear. This, in my opinion, trumps the believer's own "settled conscience" for the matter. It's different from eating Doritos and drinking Dr. Pepper. Now, if I want my testimony to shine, I need to be careful what I allow in my life, and what other people observe me do. I don't see believers who choose to drink and smoke as unchristian, but unbelievers certainly see them as fake, or in the least acknowledge that something is very wrong with their walks. Intrinsically, unbelievers know not to take them seriously, especially if they attempt to preach against sin and worldliness. The world simply will not take them seriously, and God will not back their words to dissolve the suspicions of the unbelievers.

Here is a link to that thread....
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=27230&forum=35&start=50

In Christ,

Thank you brother. That post was from Paul West and I think that his statements highlight what the agenda or purpose of these threads ought to be. To discuss how to walk in a manner that glorifies Christ, that does not bring His name into disrepute nor cause another to stumble.

Absolutely! When there is any action or behavior that is not spelled out scripturally in black and white, this is to be our primary guide. Will my actions bring glory to Christ, edify other believers, and give no occasion for stumbling to any other man? We are to be motivated by love for our brother more than we are by our own desire for freedom of behavior.

So have any of you brothers read Spurgeons responses when he was called out for smoking cigars?
Would you brothers object to smoking cigars in the same way as you do having a glass of wine?

Btw, I love brother Paul West and miss his stabilizing presence here on SI-

RE: ///I am aware of the comment to DL Moody about his fat stomach, but as brother Paul West points out, eating candy is not the same issue as these other vices.///

I do not find that the candy and alcohol parallel works and I hope to try and explain why later.

Spurgeon was a Fallible man but who was not fallible was Jesus and the Scripture very clearly tells us that Jesus drank wine.

So the Question remains : why did Jesus drink wine ?

edit : clarity

Do Not Pass Judgment on One Another

1As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own mastera that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11for it is written,

"As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confessb to God.”

12So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Do Not Cause Another to Stumble

13Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

20Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.c 22The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.d

Footnotes:
a 4 Or lord
b 11 Or shall give praise
c 21 Some manuscripts add or be hindered or be weakened
d 23 Some manuscripts insert here 16:25 - 27. Esv

All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient, all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

At our church camp, we have a snack shack where we sell candy, ice cream, and soda. We were nearing the end of camp, and I quit restocking the snack shack so we would liquidate as much as we could and not have anything left over. The first item that we ran out of was Dr. Pepper. A woman working at the camp was very upset about this. She immediately went to town and purchased her own private stock of Dr. Pepper. Why? She could not make it through the day without her Dr. Pepper. She was addicted, under the power, of Dr. Pepper. The same can be true of coffee, sweet tea, sugary snacks, food, etc.. Addiction and misuse of alcohol has much more dire consequences to the user and to those around him. The same is true of cigarettes, cigars, etc.. But is the addiction to Dr. Pepper really any different in the sense of modesty, moderation, and the scripture above?

I have never knowingly drank an beverage with alcohol, nor have I ever used nicotine. I do not, and will not consume alcoholic beverages. I would advise every American believer to do the same. But the issue is not whether drinking an alcoholic beverage or smoking a cigar is a sin. The issue is, as was previously pointed out, that "But So and So does it!"

This is why I asked Brenda about customs in Europe. Our opinions are often shaped by our culture. It is hard for an American Christian to imagine a culture where a glass of wine or a stein of beer is looked on by the non-believer with no more significance than if I had a cup of coffee with my pie after a meal. At the same time, it is hard for a European to imagine a culture where a Christian having a glass of wine with a meal could very will be the reason a non-believer rejects the gospel.

The issue of alcohol consumption is not dealt with in scripture. The issue of alcohol abuse IS dealt with, as is gluttony, and addiction to any substance.

So the question of why Jesus had wine would not have even come up in His culture. To ask a person in His culture that question would have had about as much significance as to ask an American Christian why he had a cup of coffee or a glass of Coca Cola. I think the response would have been a puzzled look.

The issue is not the meat or the drink in this case. The issue is, in my opinion, two fold. First, by doing this thing am I glorifying God and presenting a good witness to those around me? This is charity. I will not, by my liberty, cause a brother to stumble. If I find that I am, I will voluntarily give up my liberty for the sake of my brother. Second, is doing this thing going to lead me into bondage to anything other than God? I would say that if there is even the slightest chance of an affirmative answer to this question, abstinence is the best policy.

As one of the saints of old has said, "Truth is never truth if it is on the side of oppression." To that I would add, Christianity is not of Christ if it is abusive to those "whose lifestyles and views may differ from their own."

--The Rev. Dr. Douglass M. Bailey

"Christians," those who trumpet their faith from the housetops and hurl down judgments on others below, often give Christianity a bad name. By presuming to know so precisely and literally what God's will is, they take on the self-righteous posture of the Pharisees and separate themselves to that extent from the healing Spirit of Love. "Christianity is a very good thing," George Bernard Shaw observed. "I would like to see it tried sometime."

Quote: "Unbelievers intrinsically know that real Christians should not smoke or drink - not even ocassionally. Don't ask me why or how this is - it's just the stark reality of how this world operates."

Something about this statement bothers me but it is difficult to explain why, but I'll try.

Unbelievers love to point out those who they deem to be "hypocrites." This is because they like to take comfort in their sin, and if they can identify someone as a Christian hypocrite they have (in their mind) a good excuse for not being a Christian (because it doesn't work- it just produces hypocrites).

Alcohol and smoking are easy visible targets for hypocrite hunters. But the problem is that their belief is FALSE- a Christian who drinks or smokes may not be a hypocrite at all. So when the Church gets all legalistic ("don't drink, smoke, dance or chew or run with girls that do") to avoid appearing hypocritical- it is actually ENABLING the unsaved hypocrite and furthers his deception.

I have probably not explained this very well- but like I said it's hard to explain.

Todd, as I have mentioned here before, we're all headed for the same destination, we're just traveling different roads. I don't want to be on any other Christians road, I want to be on the road God built for me, because he allows different encounters for me, and has me on my on unique road, to perfect his will for my life. No Christian on earth should judge me if God is allowing different things to happen in my life, to grow me and perfect me and use me, in his own unique way to work through me to bring others to Christ.

The really lost sheep in this world will never be brought to Christ by perfect Christians, they will be brought to Christ by Christians that struggle, ones they can relate to. We should never forget when we are judging one another, we're ALL sinners, and like filthy rags, so with that prospective in mind, it should have you looking closer at yourself than others.

By the way, just for the record, I don't smoke or drink, and I don't condemn others who do.

Well said Bill.

Yes well said brother!

When I was a younger (weaker) believer I still smoked weed everyday and had for 20+yrs except for when I was in prison in a 3rd world country. It was easy for me to do because I was deceived and needed deliverance from the spirit of addiction, tho of course I didn't kno this at the time and no amount of preaching could/did change it.
Outwardly I was a model Christian, in that if the doors were open I was not only there but showed up an hour early to pray for the service. I tithed more than 30% of my income and lived very poorly tho I didn't have to. I bought cases of bibles for the mission field. I served the homeless in our community and was even active in discipleship in our church. The Lord even baptized me with the Holy Spirit during this period and I was unaware there was even such a thing as that but those are the words He Himself spoke to me when He told me to "step forth and receive that which only He could give and no man can give, the baptism of the Holy Spirit". (Which honestly kinda freaked me out at the time).
I continued to smoke weed daily for a few more months, and while strong preaching def contributed the thing that got me was He never judged me for it or condemned me in it. For He was well aware I couldn't free myself and didn't know I needed freeing. But because He was sooo good to me in spite of it, and just kept loving me and giving me more of Himself, I one day said "you know what, I don't want to get high Jesus I like you better than getting high and I just wanna be with you". It was at this point that I realized I was addicted.", because I had to obey the sin that held me in bondage and was completely powerless to resist it. It was at this point that He said to me,"I can take that from you..." And I was immediately confronted not only with the fact of my addiction but also the truth of His power and wether I really wanted to be free. After a very brief pondering of life without weed, which itself was foreign to me, I said yes to Him and He required me to do acts of repentance (flushing the weed-thousands of dollars worth) and the things associated with its use. Tho when I had completed that which He asked it broke and I was free!! the crazy thing was I didn't realize before I wasn't free!
So I say all that to say this which is in the same stream as what brother Bill has written, that its His love that saves us. Not our good deeds, not our abstinence, not our service,... Salvation is His and His alone. So if I had died while in that state of deception would I have been saved...? Yes I believe so, without any doubt. But if I were to go back to it and become enslaved once again after having experienced the mercy and grace of Gods love- I believe that it would be worse than if I'd never been delivered at all...
We (in my understanding) are only responsible to walk in the light we've been given, and therefore no believer can judge another after the flesh-

Jfw,that sounds like me ,exactly , I'll never get over
the patience of the lord .....

Yes dear brother He is patient and merciful not wanting any to perish but all to come unto repentance:))
What was so strange for me is that instantly without even telling anyone somehow they (people I'd been smoking with) knew and disassociated themselves from me. Tho a week later a friend I had been ministering to and had been coming to church with me was moving and had invited me to dinner one last time, and when I arrived to pick them up, they were out back preparing to smoke. I sat and talked with them as they watched me attentively looking for a response to their getting high. After a few minutes they asked, "ok what's going on? I mean a week ago you'd be reaching for this weed and now it's like you could care less???" I laughed and said I have never smoked and don't know what it's like to be high so why would I want it? Their eyes got huge and asked, "what do you mean! Are you high now?" I said no but the person who you knew who smoked weed was crucified with Christ, he's dead and I am a new creation and have never smoked weed a day in my life, but if you wanna smoke that's between you and the Lord and I don't mind waiting for you to finish.
I'll never forget the look on their face... they just felt so stupid and foolish and immediately put it down and said, "ok let's go eat". The entire dinner they were asking me about what happened and how I felt about it and it was a wonderful opportunity to minister to them. We haven't kept in touch as I've had lots of kids since then and don't do social media but I have a hope that the seeds that were planted will be watered and come to harvest and that Christ Jesus will be glorified in their life:)

@JFW

Enjoyed your testimony and how you engaged your friends!

I'm not sure why we can't stay with what scripture says even if a biblical liberty can cause sin?

Because even if one doesn't come out and say drinking any alcohol is a sin, it has an air of condemnation.

And does anyone think God never thought about future alcohol content?

In my observation of this debate over the years it appears that many people seem so sure on what wine is when they speak about it in terms of drunkenness, but unsure when wine usage is mentioned by Paul with parameters

There are times when it seems to me that Christians try to be even more righteous than God. Drunkenness is discussed and condemned despite the drink that one uses. But if the allowance for wine (with alcohol) is biblical, is the abuse of it on us or on God? It's on us if we cause a brother to stumble but beyond that it's God's to work out. To say wine is acceptable but for drunkenness seems perfectly in line with Scripture and therefore God himself.

I'm not sure that there are many Bible believing Christians who truly believe drunkenness is not a sin. It's in the bible.

Ephesians 5:18New King James Version (NKJV)

18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit,

Whether Old Testament or New.... the scripture above seems to indicate that the drunkenness discussed here is from wine with enough alcohol content for drunkenness. So why the need for hair splitting theology??

Romans 14:13-23English Standard Version (ESV)

"Do Not Cause Another to Stumble
13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.[a] 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves."

Does alcohol content of wine matter if it has enough to allow a brother to stumble? Clearly the wine discussed here contains enough alcohol for drunkenness or it would not make a brother stumble. And are we passing judgement on someone (scripture above) who has a glass of wine and does not indulge if they interpret scripture differently?

I've read many of MacArthurs books and listened to some of his sermons. I believe that he ranks right up there with pastors who take too much liberty with their opinions.

In his book "Twelve Ordinary Men" MacArthur stated that the scripture where Jesus told Peter; "those who live by the sword, die by the sword".... was a "divine mandate" for capital punishment. He never even qualified his statement as an opinion which I think is very dangerous.

___________________________________________________________
Tozsu wrote: "Well explained. When we do something we do it for the Lord (inwardly), and not to please people (outwardly). Sometimes we do the things that people expect from us but not to please them, but to please our Heavenly Father who instructs us to do so. That way we don't become slaves to people's judgmental opinions."
____________________________________________________________

Amen. I was thinking exactly the same thing. Are we going to let unbelievers set the standard for how we should live? In particular should an outlaw gang be the ones who decide what a real Christian is?! Really?? Even Jesus did not allow himself to be forced to conform to the hypocrites (i.e Pharisees) opinion of what they considered a 'bad witness' when they falsely accused Him.

...just a cautionary word. Someone once said when he saw a drunkard staggering along the road (I think): " But for the grace of God there go I..."

I agree we should not be men pleasers but rather God pleasers. The two are not always mutually exclusive. Paul "...became all things to all men so he could win some..."

A good reputation is priceless, both within the household of faith and with outsiders. As far as is within our power we should try and cause offence to nobody.

Epehsians 2:11-13 - Do not lose sight of the fact that you were born "Gentiles", known by those whose bodies were circumcised as "the uncircumcised". You were without Christ, you were utter strangers to God's chosen community, the Jews, and you had no knowledge of, or right to, the promised agreements. You had nothing to look forward to and no God to whom you could turn. But now, through the blood of Christ, you who were once outside the pale are with us inside the circle of God's love and purpose.

Again bear you are making the leap that drinking alcohol (not to excess) somehow is un-excellent behavior. That is not a leap that should be taken.

Drinking wine was widespread in those days and a Gentile would not think a Christian drinking wine was exhibiting bad behavior- unless they were drunk of course. And Paul cautions against drunkenness.

Bear,

Thank you for this quote..
____________________________________________________________

Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. KEEP YOUR BEHAVIOR EXCELLENT among the Gentiles, so that on the things in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.
____________________________________________________________

I notice that it says they WILL slander us in things, but we are to prove them wrong by our excellent behaviour in those things!

I am absolutely convinced that Jesus' behaviour was excellent, even though some sought to slander Him for what they wrongly considered indulging in sin.
We too should follow His example and not go out of our way to stumble people, but also not cowering in to unrighteous judgement.

Is seeking to accommodate the 'worlds' ideas of what a Christian should look like just another side of the same coin that says we need to be like the 'world' to win it??

Hi Mark,

Of course, for any serious Christian who desires to live a godly life in accordance with sound teaching, such comments as made by Bieber are laughable, NO... grievous and nonsensical.

He has clearly not read the bible properly for himself and has probably been listening to those who cater to "itching" ears and tell him only what he wants to hear.

May our God preserve us from this "leaven"

In Him,

Bro Mark,

I find it a serious issue to say (or allude)that something that the Scripture seems to clearly records Jesus as doing, as being sinful.

Can you please explain your thoughts of why Jesus drank wine ?

add: (or allude)

add : I do not drink!! I find it grievious at the debate tactics that the tetotalers are using, there was no reason to bring Justin Bieber into this discussion.

edit : for clarity

PP,

I think that Mark's position (logic?) is that in Jesus' day it was not a sin because culturally it was accepted, whereas in modern day USA it is a sin because culturally it is unaccepted. However in other modern day countries it might not be a sin because there it is still culturally OK. Are you following this??

This opens up a whole lot of issues, like what happens when the culture insists that something is morally wrong (like spanking kids, or refusing to teach your children homosexuality is OK), do we then have to conform to what the 'culture' says is a true Christian?

Edit: As for the (straw man) Bieber post, it is not worthy of a comment!!

RE : /// I think that Mark's position (logic?) is that in Jesus' day it was not a sin because culturally it was accepted, whereas in modern day USA it is a sin because culturally it is unaccepted.///

But according to Scripture there must have been a stigma involved with drinking wine in that culture : because His drinking of wine was used to discredit His Ministry,
And we know from Romans 14 that there where those whom found drinking wine as offensive in that culture.

The fact is some used Jesus drinking of wine to discredit His Ministry or Authority but yet The Scriptures still record that He drank Wine anyhow.
And He points out It would not have mattered had He choose as John not to Drink Wine or eat a meal with His friends they still would have accused him as having fault as they did with John.

edit : clarity

add: I still have not seen any from the teetotal crowd answer : why (they think)Jesus drank wine ?

Btw, it is reliably reported that Spurgeon never gave up his love for cigars...
As evidenced here:
http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/cigars.php

"Surely, everyone understands this topic by now."

You would have thought so, you would have thought so! :))

PP, Let's hold out hope someone may answer your question!

You also bring out a good point, quote: "And He points out It would not have mattered had He choose as John not to Drink Wine or eat a meal with His friends they still would have accused him as having fault as they did with John."

You will be damned if you do and damned if you don't!
John came neither eating or drinking and they said he had a demon. The Son of Man came eating and drinking and they said he is a drunk and glutton. Nothing changes!!

And my reasoning for making this a point is to illustrate that God is bigger than our culture and in every way supersedes it. So even tho Spurgeon caught flack for his indulgence, he nonetheless continued it and I can't imagine anyone arguing that God was not able to use him mightily to win souls even tho he smoked.
Again as has been stated by others,...the kingdom isn't in eating and drinking but in righteousness and peace.

Whether Jesus drank and offended, it seems to me, is beside the point. Why? Because Jesus Himself is a rock of offense and stone of stumbling. If He had not drank any wine He would have offended.

Now, this does not answer the big question in the discussion, I admit. It is curious to me that people will cite Jesus's consumption of wine of whatever strength as a green light to drink alcohol, but will not cite his crucifixion as a green light to die to self. For reasons I will post later today, if I get time, this is the crux of the question.

Dave wrote:

"This opens up a whole lot of issues, like what happens when the culture insists that something is morally wrong (like spanking kids, or refusing to teach your children homosexuality is OK), do we then have to conform to what the 'culture' says is a true Christian"

Man that's a good question. It's a rhetorical question. The answer is obvious but your logic is sound.

Tim,

RE: ///Whether Jesus drank and offended, it seems to me, is beside the point. Why? Because Jesus Himself is a rock of offense and stone of stumbling. If He had not drank any wine He would have offended.///

Why is Jesus a rock of offence ?

30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

I am a little confused at your logic to use the above as an arguement to defend teetotalism

Add : and Jesus drinking of wine certainly is not "beside the point" in a discussion pertaining to if drinking wine in moderation is a sin.

Someting I have noticed in these discussions is how folk talk about 'drinking alcohol'. This is not what is being argued for. It is drinking wine or such like that happens to have alcohol in it. This might seem like splitting hairs, but I don't think it is.

You see, if someone purposely wants to drink alcohol for that reason, then i would suggest their motive is most probably wrong. But one may drink for other reasons and accept that due the alcohol content it needs to be treated with respect and moderation.

I eat meat that has some fat in it, but I would not eat pure fat or very fatty meat, as it is not healthy. In a similar way I would not drink a drink that was strong in alcohol. Now we have to admit that some fat enhances the flavor of the meat and some alcohol adds something to the taste of wine, but excessive alcohol csn spoil the taste imo.

So its all about motive and knowing what is ok for you personally that you can give thanks for in faith.

Msrk,
Are you seriously saying you don't eat meat at all!
or are you just showing the fallacy of your argument?

That is something I can say Amen to without reservation!

And as for Bieber, he is a young (immature) brother and needs not only discipling but also our prayers, as the Lord could use him due to his popularity in a big way to reach the youth of this world and be a testimony of Gods mercy and grace. Just like with my situation with weed, if he continues with the Lord, Holy Spirit will convict him when the time is right and his heart has been prepared to receive a greater revelation of the truth of what Christ accomplished in the cross and how by faith he has access to the victory therein.
So could Bieb's current lifestyle be a stumbling block for other weaker Christians? Sure it can but it can also be a light and it's not our job to do anything but help this young brother in his walk with Jesus.

I read it once;
God didn't call us to be lawyers,...
Just witnesses ;)

What does the Liberty spoken of in the NT mean to you in your daily walk?
Perhaps that's where there is a dif understanding...

I have an uncle that got a serious issue of skin cancer, the doctors wanted to do radiation after his massive surgery which would have caused him serious issues for the rest of his life , He chose instead a very strict diet elliminating sugar red meat etc.
As to not make him feel uncomfortable , offended nor tempted when our family gets togather The over all meal is for the most part designed to accomodate his diet.

It is not that we lie or pretend to be on a diet like his, It is just when he is around with him we accomodate to his diet.

Likewise on my inlaws side I have a brother in law on a strict diet that we all accomodate the meal around as not to offend or tempt.

In none of the above do we pretend to be something that we are not inorder to not offend or tempt, we simply out of respect accomodate around their diets. They are not of the false impression that we are on to their strict diets
all the time

Mark,

Do you feel that Christians should adhere to old testament diatery laws in social eating ?

edit add : The issue is not about your right to "abstain completely" I also participate in that freedom

Please read at least the last paragraph before you think about the question below. Thanks!

I'm curious as to the answer to the question below?

Does a Christian sin via biblical implication if they have a glass of wine at dinner on their honeymoon? Yes or No

If someone says "no, but it's not wise" lets assume that and stick to the question.

"KEEP YOUR BEHAVIOR EXCELLENT" bear

What does that mean bear? Define excellent behavior. Does it mean don't drink caffeine? Don't kick the dog after a bad day of work? Don't post on the forum and get paid for it by your employer? Don't be addicted to anything including the unbearable desire to post on this forum which can be a form of addiction? Is it excellent behavior engage in forum arguments at the expense of prayer, bible study, knowing God's will for one's life and doing it faithfully?

Is it more excellent behavior for one who drinks no alcohol but spends an hour on the forum at work? Or someone who had a glass of wine for dinner but never takes liberties at work for personal purposes?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic but the attributes of excellent behavior was not clearly listed or defined in the scripture. Therefore the phrase can be so subjective that it's impossible to define and therefore it makes a good "catch all" to rebut the scripture quotes that challenge MacArthurs logic as well as yours.

I'm not trying to take a formal survey, and I'm not going to keep looking to tally votes. That's not why I posted. I just think there are times we need to cut through the theology, simplify the question at hand, and honestly answer it according to what scripture says about allowance for wine without drunkenness.....not about excellent behavior.

No one before and no one after had more excellent behavior than Jesus. He was Perfect !

And the Scripture clearly teaches that He drank wine, .

The teetotal should really ask themselves why ?

The Baptist taught me the teetotalism views.

What I learned and continue to learn by people with such views is that they trust their views and their traditions over the Scriptures.

I confronted one of my sunday school teachers with the Scriptures after he had made some teetotalism statements, He agreed with me of what the Scripture says about the subject.
His response to me was basically though he had to admit that the Scriptures taught one way, He was going to respect his seat as a Suunday School teacher and teach it the way that the church expected.

It took many little realitys like this for me to relieze that many Christians do not read or trust the Scriptures for themselves and thus there interputations can not be trusted, unfortuanitly many trust the interputations of there circles and there traditions over the Scriptures themselves.

RE: ///PP also, these questions are a diversion. Why does it matter why Jesus supposedly drank wine? ///

That is the problem Mark : there is no "supposedly" to it
and it is not conjecture as Greg insisted, It is more than clear.

look closely at Luke 7:33 ,34 , Mat. 11:19, John 2

The context in all cases clearly proves without arguement that it was not grapejuice

It is an issue about being honest with what the Scriptures say.

add : and it is about not claiming something as wrong when The Bible clearly does not claim it as wrong and clearly points out that Jesus Himself participated in.

Jeff: I am sorry. I have been away from the computer for a day and wow...the posts are numerous. I wanted to reply to your answers to my questions. Please don't take my comments as condemning of you personally.

I once went on a cruise with a brother because he won it for sales and his wife could not go. The insurance company he sold for had a bottle of champagne in the stateroom when we arrived on the ship. He is a believer, and we have walked together with God for years. He asked me if his having a glass would offend me. He explained that he wanted to honor the gesture by having one glass, but if it would offend me, he would abstain. I told him I was not offended, he had one glass, and he never touched it again.

If I were a German Christian, raised in that culture, I am sure I might have a glass of wine or beer occasionally. But I am an American Christian in a culture where unbelievers see drinking and smoking as inherently un-Christian activities. I don't want there to be any chance that my liberty would cause one of them to miss out on eternity.

I also deal with many men and women who, when they come to Christ, must be delivered of bondages to drugs, alcohol, nicotine, etc.. If one of them were to ask me if I, as a believer, partake of alcohol, I want to be able to say no. I feel I have a good reason for this. My liberty could encourage one of them to re-enter an addiction that God has freed them from. I saw this happen in another church and have watched a man who I know had a call of ministry on his life totally turn from God. It all began when one brother, in his liberty, encouraged this man that he too was free to partake of alcohol.

Brother, if you feel you have the freedom to partake, I do not condemn you in any way shape or form. I am just posting what, in my opinion, is best practice for an American believer. I cannot, nor will I try to judge the motive of your heart. I believe it is sincere and set toward pleasing God. Happy is the man in the thing which he allows.

Hope that clarifies. Hope you did not think I was trying to come against you personally with my posts.

My great grandfather was once approached by another minister who had been listening to some very odd doctrines. This man told my great grandfather that he was offended because my grandfather drank coffee. He said it was strong drink and Christians should not do that. Realistically my great grandfather should have told this man to get over it. This man was suposedly mature and should have known scripture better. But my grandfather was motivated by his love for this man and actually gave up coffee entirely. One day this minister died. The next day, my great grandfather told his wife to fix him a pot of coffee. She said, "I thought you gave up coffee." He said, "As long as my brother was offended I gave up coffee for his sake, but he is dead now and I can no longer offend him, so fix me some coffee."

Now obviously they were working off the wrong definition of the word offend. To offend means to make to stumble, not to make upset or angry. But still, the point is that one man gave up his liberty for the sake of another man's good.

This is the Biblical motivation in all that we do. Charity! We are to have a self-sacrificial love for others that goes beyond our own personal liberty. Yet, we are not to judge one another for our liberty. If it is clearly black or white in scripture, then we call it black or white. In all other things, liberty tempered by charity and obedience to the Holy Spirit in our own lives.

Mark- no Christian in his right Holy Spirit filled mind would ever knowingly drink in front a recovering alcoholic brother. The idea is absurd, and any Christian who would knowingly do so is questionably converted.

Julius had wrote : /// I don't preach total abstinence because I don't see where the scriptures teach that. I would teach former alcoholics, moderation which is more realistic. Just like I would teach former gluttons, moderation.///

Mark wrote : ///He says, no offense but you are very naive and have no idea what you are talking about. It is an impossible premise to tell an alcoholic to drink in moderation.///

I did not understand Julius to be implying that we should teach former alcholics that they needed to continue to drinking in moderation but simply we can be honest with what the Scripture says on the subject.

We should keep this in prospective on all threads, WE cannot make or expect anyone see things our way, or make anyone change, only GOD can change folks. I know there are a lot of valid points from everyone here, and some points made over and over, so why do we carry on like this, until strife sets in? One thing that is accomplished here on thread like this, old Sluefoot is rolling on the floor laughing.

Totally agree with your post-

"To seek liberty with modern alcohol how it is produced is dangerous and much more moderation must be had and wisdom shown." Greg

Brother I think everyone can agree on this because what you say is very wise, and because it is not a scripture quote.

Scripture adresses two things: drunkenness and wine itself. When scripture says "do not be given into much wine" it is giving the advice you are giving about moderation. Advice we most will agree. The question many raise now and have repeatedly raised historically on here is whether or not "wine without drunkenness" is sinful. The scripture to "not give into much wine" is a caution then and now regardless of alcohol content.

But people are not making this the argument. They are debating whether or not drinking wine (despite alcohol content) without drunkenness is sinful according to scripture. And they are doing this because it seems MacArthur and others are crafting a message that comes close to saying that it is indeed sinful to drink wine without drunkenness. No theologian or pastor will ever settle this debate by admonishing Christians to be careful with alcohol or abstain from it. It will only be settled by concluding unequivocally what scripture says about wine intake without drunkenness. Unfortunately it will never likely to be concluded to anyones satisfaction. God bless.

Mark, I'm not minimizing anything, this is the second 10 page thread on this same subject, if you feel you have been successful in getting your views/opinions out, why are you still posting here? I'll answer that, you haven't been successful, why? because this thread is in the strife mode now. Also, I am sticking to my guns on Satan laughing, but I do respect your opinion, not on the thread, but on what Satan is doing. I'm not personally here to change anyone's views or opinions, why? BECAUSE THAT'S GOD'S JOB. Some seem to feel lead to be doing GOD'S job, well that's between you and God. Why is more than one opinion/view needed from any one person on this thread, unless they are trying to stand on the rooftop and judge the sinners below. We SHOULD be preaching this message in the streets, not to Christians on a forum, that already have the Holy Spirit leading them, maybe some are trying to override the spirits lead.

RE : ///Agreed brother it was probably .5-2% alcholic wine which is very low alchol concentration compared to wines today. So three glasses in bible times = 1 or less in our times.
That is the point in the John Macarthur message:///

John Mac says at 55:12 "The Wine than in Biblical times could have well have been unintoxicating from a syrup base or marginally intoxicating because its fermation had been dilluted so much in the mixture with water."

than he will go on to say that : the level of alchol would be between 2.5 and 2.75 which he than says is well under the 3.2 percent neccassary to be classified as an intoxicating drink.

I do not know about what pliny the elder may have said but what I do know is that the wine that was being drunk
at the wedding in John 2 had intoxicating effects because the text says it did :

John 2:10
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well (((drunk))), then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

The well "drunk" methuo means intoxicated in the greek

by jeffmar
I am a former alcoholic from a long line of them...

My youngest son gave up drugs and took up alcohol just as strong but he couldn't help but agree with that Tweet. His name is Samuel if anyone cares to help me pray for him, he is 24.

God bless,
Lisa

"His name is Samuel if anyone cares to help me pray for him, he is 24". Lysa

I do.....and I will!! God bless.