The Pretrib Rapture???

My mere opinion is that it is not taught in the new Testament. I believe Jesus in the book of Matthew taught clearly that He will not return until AFTER the tribulation, great or otherwise!!

God bless

Bear, you know my heart and mind on it. We've talked about it off the forum albeit briefly. I do not believe the Bible teaches a pre-trib rapture. I do believe the Bible teaches a post-trib "harpazo"/rapture after the end of the 70th week of Daniel (still future) at the same time of the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

I also respectfully believe that the pre-trib school of thought is a very late innovation by well-meaning believers and that while well-intended it is pernicious in its effect. I am now -- and have been for a couple of months now -- actively pursuing personal study on the matter as I am convinced that the Spirit of the Lord has instructed me to do so. It is a matter of pastoral urgency for the whole body in the Western world, particularly America.

It is my deeply held conviction that pre-trib rapture teaching is perhaps one of the grossest forms of error that we encounter. I am not optimistic that sound teaching of the post-trib doctrine and even prayer that would otherwise avail much will actually make much difference in the sweep of pre-trib belief in this nation because the doctrine perfectly fits the American/capitalist/materialist narrative and is thereby part of the deception of the last days. If there's anything 240 years has taught us here is that we don't easily give up anything that serves ourselves.

There is a brother with great teaching on this topic (he is not "pre-trib") named Joe Schimmel. I recommend his video "Left Behind or Led Astray: Examining the Origins of the Secret Pre-Tribulation Theory."

http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/

I was a "pre-tribber" before hearing Joe Schimmel teach on the subject and watching the video...I'm not anymore.

I guess I'll ask the simple question, Post-Trib or Pre-Trib, does it really matter if ultimately we have accepted Christ into our lives and headed to Heaven? Personally speaking, the way the world is today, I sometimes wonder if we're in the Tribulation right now.

Bill, I have thought the same possibility...that maybe Daniel's 70th Week is underway and we don't realize it. I won't bog the thread with the particulars of why that feeling is most likely wrong but I cannot escape the sense that we are no longer simply approaching it.

With the new Russian-Turkey-Iran coalition being formed we're living and seeing Ezekiel 38 happening....

Thanks J and Tim, I know some are very passionate about things like this, and I did not mean to water anything down, but I'm just a very simple thinker, that's just the way God made me.

I wonder if we can conclude this debate before the rapture takes place, be it pre-post or midtrib.

Jeff, you mentioned Kirk Cameron was persuaded to believe post trib. That is very interesting. Did Schimmel say so or was Cameron brave enough to say it for himself?! :)

by MrBillPro on 2016/8/23 11:46:08

I guess I'll ask the simple question, Post-Trib or Pre-Trib, does it really matter if ultimately we have accepted Christ into our lives and headed to Heaven? Personally speaking, the way the world is today, I sometimes wonder if we're in the Tribulation right now.

"Left Behind or Led Astray" also seeks to answer this...but the short answer is that in warning His disciples about the coming times and tribulations, Jesus cautions. "See to it that no one misleads you," and "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many."

He (Joe Schimmel) shows quote after quote of Christian pastors and believers in general saying that if Jesus allows the church to go through the great tribulation that He is evil and dishonest and a wife-beater and that the "blessed hope" becomes the "blasted hope"...

It seems that many will be rocked if they do live to see anti-christ and may just fall away because they have believed a lie.

I'm not saying all...but perhaps many...

Anyone who labels the "blessed hope" of Titus 2:13 as a pretrib rapture never tried to understand the phrase. It is sheer invention by men and not the Holy Spirit to conclude that Titus 2:13 refers to a pretrib rapture. Let us all rest assured that His coming will be blessed to us who love Him and seek Him in truth.

Only Americans who rate blessedness by our own righteousness and success could devalue the blessedness of Christ's return by the suffering of tribulation first.

They describe one event, except the Matthew verses which describes an entirely different event.

There is only one rapture event and that is synonymous with the 2nd Coming.

1

by bearmaster
Brothers I ask again respectfully do the texts above refer to two separate resurrection events or are they describing one resurrection events.

Do we need to refer to someone else is teaching to get an answer to the above question.

Jeff you command a degree in theology certainly you can comment on this as well as others in this forum who have the theological backgrounds.

I'm just simply asking from the word of God are we looking at two separate events here of resurrection. Or is one resurrection event being described.

Revelation 20

Satan bound for a thousand years
1-3 Then I saw an angel coming down from Heaven with the key of the pit and a huge chain in his hand. He seized the dragon, the serpent of ancient days, who is both the devil and Satan, and bound him fast for a thousand years. Then he hurled him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over his head, so that he could deceive the nations no more until the thousand years were past. But then he must be set free for a little while.

The first resurrection
4-6 And I saw thrones, with appointed judges seated upon them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been executed for their witness to Jesus and for proclaiming the Word of God””those who never worshipped the animal or its statue, and had not accepted its mark upon their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first resurrection. Happy and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death cannot touch such men; they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him for the thousand years.

Satan finally destroyed
7-8 Then, when the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison, and will set out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, and to lead them into battle. They will be as numerous as the sand of the seashore.

9-10 They came up and spread over the breadth of the earth; they encircled the army of the saints defending the beloved city. But fire came down from the sky and consumed them. The devil who deceived them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur to join the animal and the false prophet. And there they shall be tortured day and night for timeless ages.

The final judgment
11 And then I saw a great white throne, and one seated upon it from whose presence both earth and sky fled and vanished.

12-13 Then I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne and the books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books concerning what they had done. The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up the dead which were in them. And men were judged, each according to what he had done.

14-15 Then death and the grave were themselves hurled into the lake of fire, which is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life he was thrown into the lake of fire.

God bless, my friends,
Lisa

by jeffmar1130
Here is the official YouTube DVD trailer on the teaching that has Kirk in it himself, & Ray Comfort, Joel Richardson, quotes from Charles Spurgeon & George Mueller, etc.

https://youtu.be/N9iRT91_pyo

Thank you!!
Lisa

I have a question to add. Hope maybe someone will give their two cents on it. The OP referenced the doctrine of the eminent return of Christ. It is a foundation stone for those who believe in the pretrib rapture doctrine. Personally, I am not totally convinced of either view yet, but lean a bit toward their being no special rapture simply because it is not clearly taught in scripture, but only surmised by personal interpretation. Anyway, here is the question.

What is the motivation behind the doctrine of the Eminent Return of Christ? Why would those who believe in a pre-trib rapture say that the teaching of this doctrine is essential and important?

Travis, I think the motivation is an honest belief that the Bible teaches it. Jesus' statement that "no man knows the day nor the hour" is one that, if He meant what pre-trib believers say He meant, it would be hands down essential.

"Jesus said it, I believe it, that's enough" sort of thing.

Except, He wasn't referring to a rapture when He said that. I'm no pre-trib believer.

There's no rapture as the modern day eschatologians try to convince the masses of.

No such thing, pre, mid or post!

BTW - There is also no 7 year tribulation; aka, the great tribulation.

Savannah, preterism duly noted.

I am so sorry for the length of this post but in the OP, bearmaster for asked if pre-trib was taught in the N.T. I came across this today and they honestly believe it is, so read away and feel free to post any rebuttals!!!

from rapture ready website:
www.raptureready(dot)com/rr-pretribulation-rapture(dot)html

Scriptural Evidence for the Pretribulation Rapture

The Unknown Hour
When we search the Scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour of that event. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, starting when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27). Note that some people only see a three-and-a-half-year tribulation. In a way, they are correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half. Nonetheless, peaceful or not, there still remains a seven-year period called the tribulation. When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1,260 days (Mat 24:16). There is no way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here: 1) the rapture of the Church, which comes before the tribulation; and 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly seven years later.

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
In Luke 12:36, the Word states that when Christ returns, He will be returning from a wedding. In Revelation 19:7-8, we read about the marriage itself. The marriage supper takes place before the marriage. According to Jewish custom, the marriage contract, which often includes a dowry, is drawn up first. The contract parallels the act of faith we use when we trust Jesus to be our Savior. The dowry is His life, which was used to purchase us. When it's time for the wedding, the groom goes to the bride's house unannounced. She comes out to meet him, and then he takes her to his father's house. This precisely correlates with the events according to the pre-trib scenario. Jesus, the Groom, comes down from heaven and calls up the Church, His Bride. After meeting in the air, He and His Bride return to His Father's house, heaven. The marriage supper itself will take place there, while down here on earth the final events of the tribulation will be playing out. After the marriage supper of Jewish tradition, the bride and groom are presented to the world as man and wife. This corresponds to the time when Jesus returns to earth accompanied by an army "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" (Rev 19:14).

What They Didn't Teach You in History Class
Many groups try to discredit the pre-trib rapture by saying most of the end-time events in the Bible have already taken place. A group of people called preterists claims that the Book of Revelation was mostly fulfilled by 70 AD. If the events described in the Book of Revelation took place in the past, I'm at a loss to explain some of the current situations I see around us: the rebirth of Israel, the reunification of Europe, the number of global wars that have occurred, and the development of nuclear weapons. During history class, I must have slept through the part where the teacher talked about the time when a third of the trees were burned up, 100-pound hailstones fell from the sky, and the sea turned into blood (Rev 8:7-8, 16:21). I think several people would have to question their opposition to the pre-trib rapture doctrine if they knew that the evidence provided to them was based on the understanding that most tribulation prophecies have already occurred.

The People of the Millennium
If Christ were to come back after the tribulation, rapture all the saints, and slay all the ungodly, who would be left to populate the earth during the millennium? Only the pre-trib viewpoint can account for this post-trib problem. The Church is raptured before the tribulation, a vast number of souls are saved during this seven-year time frame, and those who make it through the tribulation go into the millennium while the unsaved are cast into hell.

The Saint U-Turn
In the pre-trib scenario, after we rise to meet the Lord in the air, we will go to heaven and abide there seven years. At the end of that period, Christ will come down to earth, defeat the Antichrist, and cleanse the temple. In a post-trib rapture, we would rise in the air to meet the Lord, then do a 180-degree U-turn and come back down to earth. Revelation 1:7 states that Christ will appear out of the clouds and come down to earth. Zechariah 14:4 says that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. If He's already headed our way, why would we need to be caught up to meet Him?

"Come Up Hither"
Many pre-trib writers cite Revelation 4:1, which says, "come up hither," as a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church, leaving Revelation chapters 1 through 3 as a description of the Church Age. After the shout to "come up hither," the Church is not mentioned in Scripture at all. The attention of Scripture switches from the Church to the Jews living in Israel.

Armies in Fine Linen
When Jesus returns (Rev. 19:18), an army follows Him. The army's members are riding on white horses, and they are clothed in fine linen that is white and clean. In Revelation 19:8, we are told that the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. If the saints of God are returning with Christ to wage war on the Antichrist, then it is not possible to have a post-trib rapture without us running into ourselves as we are coming and going.

The Time of Jacob's Trouble
In several passages, the Bible refers to the tribulation as a time of trouble for the Jews. The phrase "Jacob's trouble" pertains to the descendants of Jacob. Jeremiah 30:7 says that this time of trouble will come just before the Lord returns to save His people. The final week of Daniel's 70th week is yet to take place. An angel told Daniel that, "70 weeks are determined unto thy people" (Dan 9:24). Scripture never mentions that the tribulation is meant to be a time of testing for Christians. However, some post-tribbers try to claim that they are the ones being tested during the tribulation. To make this so, they need to spiritualize the 144,000 Jewish believers in Revelation 7:2-8 who receive God's protective seal. Placing the Church dispensation into the same time frame as the seven-year Jewish dispensation, as the post-tribbers do, raises one good question: Can two dispensations transpire at the same time? In the past, God has only dealt with one at a time. Having both present during the tribulation would have to be an exception.

"He" That is Taken Out of the Way
Before the Antichrist can be revealed, Paul said a certain "He" must be taken out of the way. According to 2 Thessalonians 2:7, the "He" that must be removed is widely thought to be the Holy Spirit. It has been promised that the Holy Spirit would never leave the Church, and without the working of the Holy Spirit remaining on earth, no one could be saved during the tribulation. The removal of the Church, which is indwelt by the Holy Ghost, would seem the best explanation for this dilemma. The working of the Holy Spirit could go on during the tribulation, but His influence would be diminished because of the missing Church.

War or Rapture
(Rev 19:19-21) When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will be coming for battle. For those who believe in a post-trib rapture, it would be strange to meet your Lord and Savior just as He's rushing into battle. The idea that war and rapture could occur together is difficult to imagine, especially since they transpire at the same moment.

The Five Foolish Virgins
The wedding story that Jesus gave in Matthew 25:2-13, I believe, is a parable of the rapture of the Church. It explains how some will not be ready. Jesus clearly states that a group of people will miss out on an event, and will cry out to God to let them into the place where He resides, heaven. Although some try to put this parable in a post-trib context, it doesn't fit very well. The ones left behind in a post-trib rapture will not need to seek the Lord because they'll immediately be confronted by Him and His army of angels.

God Hath Not Appointed Us to Wrath
In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul assures us that God has not appointed His people to wrath. This wrath is plainly God's anger that will be poured out during the tribulation. Pre-trib believers interpret this as meaning that Christians will be removed from the earth. Post-trib believers tell a different story. They describe this as meaning that God will protect Christians during the tribulation and pour this wrath out on the unbelievers only. This idea runs against the statement made in Revelation 13:7, in which the Antichrist is given power to make war with the saints and to overcome them. A post-trib view would make God's promise of protection from wrath into a lie. In years past, it was possible to think of being protected from the guns and swords of that day. Today, when any major war would involve nuclear and chemical weapons, it's impossible to expect that same kind of protection. When Nagasaki, Japan was bombed during World War II, the bomb exploded over a Catholic church. Everyone who was in the center of the explosion died--both Christians and non-Christians. The only way to validly interpret God's promise of protection from wrath is by viewing 1 Thessalonians 5:9 as the bodily removal of the Church from this world.

The Salt of the Earth
Jesus said, "Ye are the salt of the earth" (Matthew 5:13). When the believers are supenly removed, the earth will be plunged into spiritual darkness. When this happens, the Antichrist will then be free to control the world.

God Takes an Inventory
In Revelation 7:3, an angel descends to earth and seals the servants of God. Two bits of information about this sealing highly disclaim a post-trib viewpoint. The first item is the number of people sealed: 144,000. The second one is that all those who are sealed are from the 12 tribes of Israel. For the events in Revelation 7:3-8 to be true in a post-trib interpretation, either the Church has turned against God or God has turned against the Church. A post-tribber could write a thousand-word commentary about why the Church doesn't need to be sealed. Instead of trying to argue about why the Church is not mentioned or sealed, a pre-trib proponent could just say, "We're already in heaven."

Noah and Lot as Examples
The tribulation period is compared to the times of Noah and Lot by Jesus in Luke 17:28. Most people argue over whether the time frame Jesus was talking about in that passage was pre-trib or post-trib. In doing so, they miss an important point. The two circumstances that the Noah and Lot situations have in common are the removal of the righteous and the judgment of the unbelievers. From these two accounts, we see that God prefers to remove His own when danger is involved.

Common-Sense Reasons for Believing in the Pretribulation Rapture

The World Test
One way to check the soundness of a doctrine is to see how the world reacts to it. One company put out a questionnaire that was used to screen prospective employees. One of the questions was, "Do you believe in the rapture?" If you answered "yes," your chances of getting hired would not be good. Some internet sites do not allow the topics of Rapture or Second Coming. They do allow topics such as sex, gays, and drugs. The only time the news media mentions the rapture is when someone sets a date and is proven to be wrong.

That Old-Time Religion
It used to be a rule of thumb that when one was visiting a church or listening to a preacher, one could assume the preacher believed in repentance, prayer, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost if he taught the rapture doctrine. It was also true that the churches on fire for God worshipped out of storefronts. Today, many of those storefront churches have moved into marble palaces and have strayed from their principal doctrines.

Birds of a Feather Flock Together
Whenever I look at all the groups that teach false doctrine and are highly focused on end-time events, I cannot find any that support the rapture theory. Some organizations, the Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, teach a false gospel and are heavily into Bible prophecy. Why, then, don't Jehovah's Witnesses teach a false doctrine that would be right up their alley? Could it be that the demonic forces that influence these groups know something that Christians opposed to the rapture don't know? The list of prophetically minded cults that reject the idea of a rapture goes on and on. Here are some more: the Mormons, the Worldwide Church of God and the Moonies, as well as leaders like Jim Jones and David Koresh.

The Church Would Rebuke the Antichrist
If the Antichrist came to power with the Church still here, I do not see how he could operate. When Hitler was fighting to take over England, a number of Christians were praying for victory. Hitler made mistake after mistake, and England outperformed its enemy at every stage of the conflict. It is difficult to measure the impact of intercessory prayer in physical warfare. Little is known of how great a role praying saints played in the defeat of Nazi Germany. If the Church were to reside on earth during the tribulation, I am sure she would give the Antichrist fits. In Revelation 11:3, the two witnesses alone give the Antichrist enough headaches. Millions of Christians who know their Bibles well would recognize the man of sin and pray fire down on his head. The post-trib view would have to plan on the Church just rolling over and playing dead the whole seven years.

quote: What is the motivation behind the doctrine of the Eminent Return of Christ? Why would those who believe in a pre-trib rapture say that the teaching of this doctrine is essential and important?

The term is actually "imminence" or imminent- just a technical point.

This entails the belief that nothing else has to happen before Jesus can return. All prior conditions have been met so literally He could return at any time.

But you don't have to be a pre-tribber to believe that. I am not a pre-tribber but I believe that Jesus could return at any time. I equate the rapture with the 2nd coming. I do not believe scripture teaches two separate rapture events.

The post Lysa quoted says that is a "U-turn" approach to the rapture; i.e. that Jesus returns for his 2nd coming, the dead in Christ and those living are raptured and meet him in the air, then return to the earth. I view it not as a U-turn per se but rather liken it to a bride running to meet her groom. It's a welcoming committee!

In my view when we are raptured at the 2nd coming, the new heavens and earth are created and we return to the recreated earth, which is synonymous with "heaven." Cant wait.

Todd: Sorry for the misspelling. Duly noted that we are talking about all prerequisites being met and the event being the next thing on the horizon. But my question is to the motivation for believing the doctrine an essential one. Why do we see it as absolutely essential to believe the rapture could happen at any moment rather than, lets say, at a season down the road a few years after certain events take place.

I might note, the scripture stated earlier that no man knows the day or the hour is further clarified by 1 Thess 5: 5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

We do not know the day or hour, but we should be aware of the season. If our motivation for believing in the imminent return is that we think we see in scripture that all prerequisites are met, cool! Then we would have reason to believe imminent return. But what is the motivation for calling it an essential doctrine rather than simply the next step in the parade? Do you get the distinction I am trying to make? In other words, why is it important for a pre-tribber that people believe in imminent return rather than simply, He is coming down the road a piece?

Bro. Travis, can I jump in and say something to your last post directed to Todd? And, Todd, can I poke in long enough to say this?

I share your view that this is not an issue we ought to make a test of fellowship with each other. We are ALL grabbing in a measure of darkness. I'm thrilled that we all know we are touching on the things of God with earnest hearts to Him even if we ARE doing it without knowing exactly what we've got our hands on. I might be holding onto the hem of His garment and calling it His sleeve, and you may be telling me I'm grabbing His sleeve while you're sitting on His shoulders and think you're sitting in His lap!! :)

(I hope nobody is offended at that.)

I am deeply disappointed at the rhetoric that gets used online by pre-tribbers about post-tribbers (like, "Post-tribbers are lying heretics and are calling God a wife-beater.", and that's a nicer one). And by post-tribbers calling pre-tribbers a bunch of deceivers and agents of the Anti-Christ. And, I do wonder why pre-tribbers think so little of post-tribbers when the concerns we have about the practical impact of pre-trib belief (if pre-trib is wrong) are out of love and concern.

We need to discuss this. It doesn't need to be taboo among us. We ought to be able to point out where the problems are with other views without making those who hold the views straight-up opposed to Christ. If that kind of conclusion becomes unavoidable, it can be dealt with in due course but why can't we assume the best about each other in this circle of believers now?

So, that's my .02. And, please pardon my interruption.

No problemo Tim. I agree.

But Travis, I have no idea why it should be considered "essential." Pretty silly thing to do since it certainly isn't 100% clear.

Perhaps they think that if other prophecies need to be fulfilled then we can "time" the rapture and as you pointed out scripture says we can't time it, and even the Son doesn't know (my only explanation for this is that Jesus did not know when he made the statement- he certainly knows now).

Tim: Totally agreed. And, that should be the attitude of anyone who is studying and discussing scripture. There are absolutes that I will not back off of, like the virgin birth and the death and resurrection. There are other areas where, if we are honest, none of us have it figured out yet, like eschatology. It grieves me as well when brethren cannot discuss scripture without that kind of rhetoric.

Todd: I guess I need to tip my hand so to speak and bring out the reason for asking the question. I had a discussion with a man about eschatology recently. He was a believer and he found out I was a believer and began to ask me about my views on various topics. Did I believe in the present day operation of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer, etc. Finally, he very pointedly asked me if I believed in a pre-tribulation rapture. I told him that I had not made up my mind yet. I had studied it from both angles and to be honest, had not been able to come to a conclusion in my own mind that was iron clad enough to say, "this is how I see it." He became visibly upset and said that I could not have that view and that there was only one way to see it. I told him I actually leaned toward there not being a pretrib rapture as I could find no clear teaching in scripture to support it. He really did not like that statement. Then he brought up the imminent return. This was his motivation.

He said that if we did not preach the imminent return that it would result in Christians living carnally and living in sin.

It took a few seconds for it to really soak in. His primary motive for believing in a pretrib rapture was so that people could live in fear of the Lord's return and thus have a reason to refrain from sin. I was floored. He was wanting to present a doctrine as essential in order to "put the fear of God" into people to motivate them by fear to refrain from sin. This motive violated clearly taught scripture in so many ways.

For me, if a doctrine is taught clearly in scripture, I believe it. If scripture represents it as essential, such as salvation by grace through faith rather than through keeping the law, then I call it essential and will defend it as such. But to take an eschatological doctrine that cannot clearly be taught scripturally and elevate it to the status of essential in order to motivate or I even believe manipulate people?

Now this man was sincere. I know the motive of his heart was that he did not want to see people go to Hell. He truly wanted them to be saved. He did not even realize the implications of what he was saying. I tried by best to tell him that the fact that his eschatological view was different than mine was not such a big deal. He would have none of it and tried for half an hour to convince me that I was wrong for not being convinced that he was right. It was a bit bizarre.

That is why I asked the motive question. Our motive for believing a doctrine is probably as revealing important as our presentation of proof texts.

His argument sort of breaks down because we should not be avoiding sin to save our own skins. We should do so because our King commands us to do so. Your friends motives are noble but twisted.

The folds of eschatology are dense. When we arrive closer to the events, they become less so. From even Daniel's perspective, there were far less details than when Jesus spoke on Mt. Olive. He spread out the folds to a degree. Paul then did. Then John.

Post trib belief has the opposite effect on me. It causes me grave concern for marginal, half-hearted or nominal Christians that they will not be prepared to endure to the end. I firmly believe the apostasy that is underway is only at the top of the roller coaster and that the 70th Week will speed it as the bottom drops out of men's view of the truth. The 70th Week is so full of deceitfulness -- and I am not even talking about wrath or tribulation -- that less than serious believers will turn away from true faith. People will turn to the false belief system and lies in general.

Telling men they will be snatched away from this deception seems to me to set up a false hope, actually exacerbating the problem of disappointed, deceived Christians who really believed God loved them too much to let them suffer so. When the time comes they will deny and reject the truth in favor of an explanation that keeps them blind or in bitterness that they could be allowed to remains wrong.

Love God, call on Him while He is near. Pray in the Spirit. Keep your most holy faith.

Hi all
Certain views I have on the subject have remained the same.
Funnily I think these two views would remain the same even if I changed my Trib view.
1.Their are god loving Christians on both sides of the debate
2.The debate is tied to your view on Salvation.In general if you believe in Post Trib will beleive that you can loose ur Salvation and if you are Pre Trib you are more free to believe in either but mostly will believe that u cant loose ur salvation.
My view is that the rapture will be after 3 1/2 yrs but before the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation which in effect is a pre tribulation position.
From that position these observations are important:
1.That pre trib Christians can be less of a Christian than a post tribulation Christian in the view of Post Trib believer.
2.The red herring debate that pre trib is a recent event which I have seen rebutted before.
3.The Post trib believer looks at the prosperity preachers and make the point that they are pre tribbers which is correct but use this as a teaching to show that thus pre tribulation view must be wrong.Either Teaching can only be rebutted by scripture only.
4:The Post tribulation side of the debate sometimes blur the line or definition of "Tribulation".In the sense of the clear difference between regular tribulation for the want of a better word and a period of time called "The Great Tribulaion".This is important because all the pre tribulation Christian I know believe that we suffer tribulaion in this life and will continue to do so until the end.The point that their is tribulation in the normal course of a Christians life doesnt point to "Us" going through the period of time called "The Great Tribulaion"
5:Having said that their are times when you have the likes of Corrie Ten Boom where she suffers and their are times of Billy Graham where he wasnt imprisoned for his beliefs.
Just because Corrie Ten Boom has seen and experienced tribulaion doesnt mean we go through the period of time called "The Great Tribulaion" and Just because Billy Graham didnt suffer Tribulaion doesnt mean that we wont go through the period of time called "The Great Tribulaion"

I say these things because the majority of posters on SI in my experience are Post Trib believers and I want you to know that their are Pre Trib believers who have concerns about how they are continually betrayed during these end times debates.We have considered both sides,we arent half hearted,we love God has much as you.We understand clearly the subject of "Tribulaion" and experience it just like you
but still look and study the subject and come to the belief that we will leave before the "The Great Tribulation".
Yours Staff

Staff- you can be a mid tribber- it's fine by me!

I am curious about something in that view- would you be able to tell when the midpoint of the tribulation is? Perhaps even to the day?

In general I think it's unwise to cling too tightly to any particular view. It's ok to have our favorite but we must also be prepared for disappointment.

As a post tribber my potential for disappointment is very low because if I am wrong and Jesus comes earlier than expected, that's awesome!

The disappointment for a pretribber could be very great and depending on how strongly they hold to that belief it might be devastating and perhaps faith-wrecking, if they are wrong of course.

RE: ///In general I think it's unwise to cling too tightly to any particular view. It's ok to have our favorite but we must also be prepared for disappointment.///

I agree 100%
Search the different views through out church history there is no continuity.

Pretrib rapture and significance of Israel in Bible Prophecy are foundational stones to so much of modern eschatological interpretation, but neither seem to hardly be mentioned in the first 1500 years of church recordings and I am not aware of any such view being found in the Ante-Nicene writings.

edit:clarity

Well stated bear and pretty sobering.

The Great Tribulation occurred as prophesied by Jesus that it would!

So much for a pretrib anything!

Although the movie makers are making something!

As me and my buddies used to say when we parted...

Here...there...or...in the air...!

Quote: """The Great Tribulation occurred as prophesied by Jesus that it would!"""

Quote: """As Savannah said, it started when Jesus said it would and it never ended."""

Where is this prophesy?

In Christ: Phillip

Hey Philip- I am assuming he means the Olivet Discourse. I am in 75% agreement with that interpretation.

Zac Poonen has an excellent series on Revelation.

Page 16 under his sermons starts Rev 1
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=157&min=300&orderby=titleA&show=20

Here's the one I want you to start on (if you care to):
(revelation) Revelation 20:4-21:17 by Zac Poonen
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=9011&commentView=itemComments

Then here is David Pawson's Revelation series:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=528

Since this discussion is very civil and uplifting, I want to make on observation aimed at what Savannah said. Savannah, you say that the great tribulation already occurred. I agree totally that what happened in Jerusalem around 70 ad and what has continued to happen to the church has been tribulation and it has been great. The only problem I have with accepting the same stance you take is that there are other things listed as occurring at the same time that have not happened yet. Paul quotes Joel as saying that there would be catastrophic signs in the earth and heavens and that the sun would be darkened and the moon turned to blood. Matthew repeats this as well as saying that the coming of the Lord would immediately follow this tribulation and would be as evident as lightning in the sky, that all would see it.

This has been the sticking point for me where pretarism is concerned. It seems I either have to rip Matthew 24 apart, claim that part of it is literal and part is figurative, or reject the view that these prophecies are already fulfilled. How to you see this? Is there a way you look at these verses and fit them into your eschatalogical view?

Hi Tmk,
Yeah I dont see it has mid trib rather than mid week and the last part of the week being "the great tribulation".
Also I follow the pattern that I believe God set out before me.I have explained this indepth before.
Only one person is tied to 3 1/2 years and that is Elijah.
If you study Elijah you will see that it shows what is going to happen in the end.In fact I would say you cannot have an idea what is going on in the end without studying Elijah.
Yes I think you will have the general timeframe when the rapture perhaps not the day or week.
Yours Staff
I take it all my other points are ok with you!

Hi Bearmaster
I Knew this would have to pop up and I pointed it out earlier.
1:Post Trib believers blurring the line between Presecution(tribulation implied i take it) and the period of time called "The Great Tribulation" as you have just done.
2:Again their are times like Corrie Ten Boom when she is being persecuted and Times of Billy Graham where he is not.You cant use either to prove the period of time called "The Great Tribulation".Only Scripture.
3:Pre Tribulation believers are less of a Christian than a Post Tribulation believer.This Time we are "Scoffers"
4:We will indeed suffer Persecution as I said before ;all the Pre Tribbers(i know) believe we have persecution in this life.
Yours Staff

This topic has been debated since for more than a decade in these forums.

I lean toward a pre-tribulation rapture. This isn't to say that my mind cannot change. It doesn't mean that I am so loyal or devoted to this perspective that I do not have a teachable spirit on this matter either. It also doesn't mean that I think believers are exempt from great tribulation in this world -- and more so as the end comes and the days grow more evil.

It simply means that, after much study and prayer, I feel that this conclusion -- that the Lord will gather His Bride prior to the wrath of God poured out upon the entire world -- makes the most sense from my study of God's Word.

Still, I am entirely aware that I could be incorrect. I am prepared to serve God wholeheartedly if I am incorrect. Keith Green used to teach that we should "pray for pre-trib but prepare for post-trib." David Wilkerson (who, according to Times Square Church, embraced a pre-trib rapture) used to say that he was "pan-trib" -- that everything would "pan out" for believers in the end.

Someone else said it well: We are secure in Christ. As long as our hearts are firm in the Lord...and as long as we are aware that we may endure the period of God's wrath upon this world...then we should avoid pointing the fingers at those believers as "deceived."

I just wish that this topic could be discussed without it growing so terribly divisive.

*EDIT - I am not implying that anyone here has been uncivil or divisive. I haven't even read through the entire thread yet (just a few pages). However, it has been a tradition in this forum that this topic is discussed at length before ultimately turning divisive. I hope that no one thinks that I was stating this about anyone here.

Yes!

Christ is made unto us wisdom from God, that is Justification (Righteousness), Sanctification (set apart from sin to serve the living God) and glorification (the transformation of our lowly bodies into a glorious eternal sinless body!)
I.O.W. Jesus Christ makes us right with God, gives us victory over the power of sin-NOW-and is our Living hope for a final resurrection to Eternal Life.

What matters today, and every day, is that we remain in Him through faith and love...and that we heed the admonition in Hebrews: let us not forsake the gathering together of the saints...encouraging one another to love and good works, especially as we see The DAY approaching!
The Day?...that final Day when Christ appears and His great salvation plan in us is perfected and consummated :)

Blessings,

http://daniel11truth.com/index_htm_files/1.png

travis wrote:

"This has been the sticking point for me where pretarism is concerned. It seems I either have to rip Matthew 24 apart, claim that part of it is literal and part is figurative, or reject the view that these prophecies are already fulfilled. How to you see this? Is there a way you look at these verses and fit them into your eschatalogical view?"

It was my sticking point as well, until I heard a partial preterist teacher I really respect explain it all.

http://theos.org/media/category/14/ (tab down to Mt. 24- there are a few lectures on Mt 24)

A very general answer is that the passages in Joel, and even the Olivet Discourse, are apocalyptic in nature; a form of Hebrew writing, just as the great majority of Revelation is apocalyptic. Isaiah also has a lot of apocalyptic portions.

Josephus reports that there were indeed "signs in the sky" during the Jewish war in 70 AD.

When Jesus, in the Olivet DIscourse, talks about coming on the clouds, he is talking about coming on the clouds in judgment against Jerusalem in 70 AD, in the same generation of those He was speaking to, his disciples. Remember he said all this would take place in their generation.

Now, I am not sure how "preterist" Savannah is. I am a partial preterist; I don't think Jesus' 2nd coming was in 70 AD nor do I think a secret rapture took place in 70 AD. I believe the 2nd Coming is literal and yet future.

However, I do believe it is not hard at all, if one keeps in mind the nature of the language of Jesus' prophetic statements in the OD (apocalyptic), to come to the conclusion that he was talking about coming in judgement to end the Jewish temple system forever in 70 AD.

If you read Josephus's account of the horrors going on in Jerusalem during the siege, you will come to the conclusion that it was indeed great tribulation to the point that the only explanation was massive demonic activity within the city.

by ccchhhrrriiisss..This topic has been debated since for more than a decade in these forums.

Julius, Todd: That is where I have a difficulty accepting the preterist view. It seems that when we see a passage for which an historical event seems to coincide, we are great with calling it literal and when we see a passage that we cannot explain historically we call it hyperbole or apocalyptic language.

There are eschatological passages in scripture which are pictures and are not to be taken literally. For example, Jesus does not literally have eyes of fire, woolen white hair, and a sword sticking out of His mouth. We understand that John's vision of Jesus returning as the conquering King demonstrated in a picture the majesty, awesomeness, and absolute judgement of our Savior and King as He returns to judge the world. And there are passages which are to be taken literally. I believe there will come a time when what we think of as the heavens and the current world on which we live will be destroyed and there will be a new heaven and a new earth.

But I think we must be careful in our interpretation that we don't pigeonhole Biblical events based on our own eschatological bias. Do we believe that the sun will not actually be darkened and that the moon will not actually appear to be red as blood because it causes us to question the timing of the great persecution that we desire to pin to 70AD, or do we believe it is apocalyptic language for another reason? Is it unreasonable to say that this is a literal event? If the heavens and the earth are to be destroyed and a new heaven and a new earth created, then why can this event not be literal?

If that is the case, if it is literal, then how does that effect the belief of a preterist?

These are questions that I ask myself. This is why I asked Savannah to explain what she thought. I am interested in how a preterist sees these other events that are given alongside the great persecution. Julius, I have heard many teach and explain these events as apocalyptic language. I just want to know why one would view these as apocalyptic and what would be the implications if they were not.

Mr. Bill:

In a sense I totally agree with you. I have an active, living, vibrant relationship with God through Christ. I am seeking His will and His way in my life. I desire to know Him more and more, and I only want to draw closer to Him. If there is a pre-trib rapture...Fantastic. I will take it, leave here, and be with Him. That is my ultimate desire anyhow. If there is not a pre-trib rapture, and if I go through a time of great persecution, fine! I serve a God that is able to keep me, strengthen me, and if necessary give me His grace in death. Then I will be with Him, which is my ultimate desire anyhow. In that sense, it really does not matter. This is why I say this is not an essential part of Bible doctrine.

Yet it is not at all unimportant. We are told to study the scriptures. Remember Daniel said he set his mind to understand and through His study of scripture and prayer the 70 weeks were understood by Daniel by revelation of God. What is about to happen is not something that we should simply ignore. We are to ponder, study, pray, and be ready.

I am really concerned when I see brothers and sisters who become so immersed in their particular view of eschatology that they are unwilling and unable to discuss the topic with a heart to learn and understand but rather argue with a heart to convince the other guy that he is wrong. None of us have the end of this thing all figured out. As events unfold, the vision will slowly be unsealed so to speak. But what is our motive and heart in the matter? That is much more important than the matter of pretrib, posttrib, midtrib, or pantrib (If I stick with God it will all pan out :-) ) in my mind.

Travis, what an awesome and logical response, that really blessed me.
Thanks!

Hey Travis- I do appreciate your responses.

As far as the moon turning to blood etc, Josephus does report this phenomenon from all the smoke rising up from Jerusalem. So this was at least some degree of literal fulfillment.

by twayneb
I am really concerned when I see brothers and sisters who become so immersed in their particular view of eschatology that they are unwilling and unable to discuss the topic with a heart to learn and understand but rather argue with a heart to convince the other guy that he is wrong. None of us have the end of this thing all figured out.

Side story to start: I used to smoke and after I quit I would bug my sister to quit (as only a little sister can!!), so she would say, "Reformed smokers are the worst.” LOL Ok, back to the topic at hand...

Years ago, I was becoming one of those people you described ”“ "immersed in my particular view of eschatology.” I grew up being told pre-trib was the correct view and then I become post-trib (and reformed smoker mentality kicked in), so I would come out with guns blazing over topic of pre trib and its ramifications on the church world! The Lord allowed me to go so far and then (thank you Jesus), showed me that people have been arguing this topic since the printing press (or longer), losing friends and family and reputations.

He opened my eyes that reputations weren’t lost, friends weren’t lost, and families weren’t lost over their love for Jesus Christ, no... but because of their obsession with a mere topic, a paradigm, a belief system that SO FAR no one literally has lived to see come to pass.

The Holy Spirit didn't stop there but brought me down to where the rubber met the road and asked if that was what I wanted for my life because I was heading in that direction rather quickly. I had a decision to make that day and I chose Him, praise His holy name He gave me a chance.

by twayneb
None of us have the end of this thing all figured out. As events unfold, the vision will slowly be unsealed so to speak. But what is our motive and heart in the matter? That is much more important than the matter of pretrib, posttrib, midtrib, or pantrib (If I stick with God it will all pan out :-) ) in my mind.

God bless,
Lisa

edited for clarity sake... Greg PLEASE bring back the preview button (without all the bold and whistles)

http://daniel11truth.com/exposing-post-trib-deceptions.htm

Trying to figure out (praying) for a better way to say it.

Lysa I am not interested in this mans pride, I felt the same way when I started to study his work. When I got past the pride and humbleness with real feeling for those that are being led out of " 1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words." I see what he is saying and have gotten much out of his works. I see the same pride and arrogance in Paul, but wow what a man of God.

I don't mean to be contentious in any way, I just thought because of someone else' hard work It might be uplifting to those that see pretrib as a blessing and not a curse. I have read first Thess 4 a thousand times and always get a comfort in Pauls words. I was confused by the pre and post many words and needed something to calm my dyslectic mind which cannot keep up, so this mans work is very hard to keep up but it gives me some mind calming truths, and now I just keep going back just like with Paul and the word of God. This man does not even have or will give his name but I trust most of his words. I keep checking him with the word of God all the time and so far I am at peace with his work.

It took me a while to get to trust his words, I don't know why I kept going back to his work, but I am now real familiar with his work and it does fit. Most of the time. Then I confront him well not confront but speak to him by e-mail.

In Christ, bless you and thank you for your Godly influence on me and this forum: Phillip

by Christinyou
Lysa I am not interested in this mans pride, I felt the same way when I started to study his work.

by Christinyou
I don't mean to be contentious in any way, I just thought because of someone else' hard work It might be uplifting to those that see pretrib as a blessing and not a curse.

God bless you, brother!
Lisa

RE: /// Post-trib = Jesus is not coming back for at least 7 years as of today.
Hardly a thief in the night///

that is a good point.
I am assuming that you are a premillennialist, could you explain your interpretation of 2 Pet 3 ?

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

hi Marcmc

But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief.

Yours Staff

by proud papa
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

45 But suppose that servant says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and he begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him, and at an hour of which he is unaware. Then He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

They were servants of the master whose heart was revealed in the delay of his master.

God bless,
Lisa

(EDIT) I wanted to add this

1 Thess 5:4-6
4 But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. 5 For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not sleep as the others do, but let us remain awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night; and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober...

Greg: Thank you for posting the belief of the house church in China. I am there with my own study. There are some things that we absolutely know because they are clearly stated in scripture. It is the other details, the writing that we think we see between the lines, that causes the division on this subject. To search scripture and throw ideas back and forth is good. It makes us did into scripture and read carefully. But we all must agree that these things are still being read between the lines and so we cannot allow ourselves to adopt a dogmatic stance that leads to schisms and rifts between ourselves and our brothers and sisters in Christ.

marc: No man knows the day or the hour...true. But we are to know the times and the seasons. Those who are not watching, who do not have oil for their lamps, will be taken unawares. But for those who walk in the presence of the Holy Spirit there will be an awareness. There will not be a knowledge of the day or hour, but there will be an awareness that the event is upon us. We will not be taken off guard. If the goodman had been watching, he would not have allowed himself to be robbed.

I think this is the general teaching of the Bible on the timing of Christ's return and our knowledge of it.

Just another quick observation. I do not think we will be able to point to a particular day, month, or perhaps even a particular year and say, "This is the moment that we began to experience great tribulation." If that is the case, then we would also not be able to count seven years and say, "This is the day we will come out of it."

My mind sometimes works in lists and then I organize them as best I can. Here is a question that I think might be interesting in studying this topic.

When the Lord returns, ________________ will happen.

For example,

2 Peter 3 says that when He returns, the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements will melt with fervent heat, and the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:30 The tribes of the earth shall mourn when they see Him coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Thess. 5:2 Men will be saying, "Peace and Safety" and will be taken unawares and sudden destruction will come upon them.

by marcmc
...So much for the authority of the believer.

The Apostles all had tongues of fire rest upon them, did miracles in the name of Jesus, Peter's shadow healed people and yet every single one of them BUT John died a violent death. How do you explain the authority of those believers?

Nero literally burned to death Christians and left them burning to light Rome up after the fire. How do you explain the authority of those believers?

How does one explain the authority of believers when Christian's were led to the coliseum for their deaths all to entertain the citizens of Romans?

Where is the authority of the believer when Christians have been skinned alive and had to watch their children and loved ones die unspeakable deaths before they were martyred?

I'm not upset and yelling, with tears in my eyes these are honest questions that I have.

Question 1. I believe they had authority but where was the authority of those believers when they suffered and were martyred?

Question 2. Why is our authority of the believer any different than theirs? Better question is, "Is ours any different?"

Question 3. Can anyone explain to me logically why those Christians were martyred and yet not one Christian (in America? because we all know outside America they are being martyred), why we in America will not die a violent death before Christ returns.

Anyone care to explain?

RE : ///Post-trib = God the Father giving His Son's Bride a good beating to get her all fixed up for the wedding.///

My understanding is that most post-trib pre-mill. believe that the end times plagues that are poured out will be like those in egypt and will not include the Christians.

As far as persecution from the enemy , As Lisa pointed out that is a simple reality through out all of history including much of the world today.

edit : clarity

Perhaps instead of spamming little mocks pointed at post tribs..
It would be more beneficial to make a clear case using the Scriptures and perhaps find some writings in the first 1500 years of church history that supports your position of a pre-trib rapture