Christians Bearing Arms

Brethren:

This is a topic that is becoming more prevalent in many discussions I am having with other believers and it has to do with Christians carry concealed weapons (CCW).

Many men in my old church are packing and they have their reasons. Carrying guns is just something I do not bear witness with but people want to take issue with me because I tell them that I am not believing to be put in a situation to have to use one.

The same questions come up like what would I do if someone were to come in my home to harm my wife or worse.

Please feel free to share your thoughts and convictions and lets just respect others who might be on the opposite side of the issues in what we ourselves believe.

I was in a discussion with a brother who genuinely loves the Lord, loves to get out there in the trenches and witness, etc. He has a wonderful heart for the Lord but he also has a CCW. His conviction is, if someone were to start shooting up the place, he believes he would be able to minimize the damage and death.

He did say he does not believe in using his weapon to protect his food and water as he feels he would give to whoever asks if he were ever put in that situation.

He attends my old church, so carrying is well accepted there.

Blessings,
BD

I have a weapon or 2 for home defense only. I have a CCW but don't carry outside the home. I don't carry it in the home either.

I have dear Christian brothers who have weapons and some who don't. I don't care one way or the other.

I don't know Kung fu (wish I did) so I have no expectation that I could disable an armed intruder. Of course there is no guarantee I could do so WITH a weapon.

I don't think it is a sin to shoot at a home intruder. I see it as my duty to protect my family.

If I was a missionary or a street preacher on "their" turf I would not carry nor would I shoot if I did.

But if they come in my house, I would have to take action. It's not complicated for me.

I do CCW. Sometimes on my person. Sometimes in my briefcase.

I am also going to purchase a tactical knife used by law enforcement and everyday carry it.

I encounter people who are bad news. Many people would do me or my family bodily harm if given the slightest chance. I cannot afford to let that happen for their sakes. I am equipping to resist and protect.

My concern is not government agents. I could never acquire the means necessary to effectively resist wrongful force. Franky I don't think anyone can in spite of home arsenals.

My concern is people I know and people like them that I do not know.

You are surrounded by these same people. They would harm you too if given the slightest opportunity. But, if you have no family to provide for nor protect, you may freely choose the route of submission without resistance. It is a commendable trust. As a husband and father, I do not have the luxury in the face of known evildoers to not plan, prepare, equip and mentally and spiritually determine to act to resist with deadly force. I DO have the grace to pray and trust that God will answer my prayers to keep us from evil.

A preacher that I know was outside of his church building when a man came up and told him that God hated that church and that he was going to go in and kill everyone.
The preacher told the man that he was conceal to carry and was willing to use it if need be,.. the man than backed down, got in his car and drove off. The preacher than called the cops. Within about 10 min. the cops pulled the man over and found meth. a rifle and 100 rounds of ammo.
no one was hurt and no one was killed.

In his young days, my husband practiced martial arts and was very good at it, winning some championships. He was still very good as he got older. He also believed that a weapon would be useful. I did not want one at home, and we never got one.

After God touched his life and changed him radically, he renounced his martial arts practice, and opposed the use of guns. He said that our God hates violence. My husband was very uncomfortable with the idea of hurting another living being, since it is not for us to take a life.

The other thing he said is that having a gun (or pepper spray, or knowing how to defend yourself, etc.) gives you the false assumption that you are the one defending yourself, and that you have any control over it. It is the Lord God only who can defend us, and in Him alone we should trust.

These are my thoughts, and I respect those who think otherwise.

I conceal carry even at my church. Being in Texas, I also open carry, especially when I am hunting.

For me, it is a matter of fulfilling my biblical obligation to defend the innocent and also not getting tore up by hogs (when I am hunting). There are self-imposed (albeit, I believe biblically-based) rules that I apply, though.

1) Persecution is not a reason to defend myself. Since it is an honor to be counted worthy to suffer for His name's sake, I would not shoot someone over it.

2) I don't defend only myself. If someone is threatening to kill me, then by all means, they may do so. I am going to do my best to talk them down and witness to them or pin them to the ground and witness to them, but they aren't going to die from me shooting them.

3) I don't defend my things. Stuff is nothing. It can be taken away by a human and it can be taken away by a fire. It would be nothing but pure vengeance to kill someone over my stuff.

4) Defend the innocent. This is the primary reason why I carry. If I didn't carry. I'd do it with my bare hands, even at great personal cost to myself.

*************************

All of this requires discernment. I have never been in a situation in which I have had to defend someone. But I believe that in that moment, the Lord will lead me, because my first plan of action is to cry out to the Lord over whatever situation I am in.

Havok-

Your rules of engagement pretty much line up with my own. #2 is hard, but I think I agree. I have a little bit of a hard time with the idea of dying needlessly because of my family etc. I hope it never comes to that. I don't think it would be a sin to self-defend, but I understand the argument against it.

proudpapa: Wow! That is the exact scenario that played out at the church a buddy of mine pastors. The man left, I believe on foot, but was found to be really messed up on drugs and was arrested. But he was asked to leave and told what he was up against if he did anything to threaten the congregation.

I personally have a CCW and carry intermittently. I would not hesitate to protect either my home, or my congregation. I have really thought long and hard about my convictions and how it plays out with my faith. I think my personal conviction is this. I have no problem with giving my life for the sake of the gospel. I would do so willingly and believe that in that moment God would give me the same grace that He has given other martyrs. I do not carry to necessarily protect my own life. But I do want to protect the lives of others. I know my own destiny and have a very secure hope of salvation. But I am not sure of the others that might be in my church, and I do not want to let someone kill them.

My family has a strong tradition of gun ownership. We all hunt, we all plink, and most all of us are CCW carriers. My church is full of, for lack of better words, a lot of country rednecks from the same tradition.

Let me add this. There are areas of life where the Bible does not clearly spell out what I should or should not do. They are areas left to personal conviction through prayer and best understanding of scripture. My uncle was a conscientious objector during the Korean War. He was drafted, spent the war as a jeep mechanic a couple miles behind the front lines, and drove unarmed to the front each Sunday to preach to the troops who were not catholic even though he was not an official chaplain. He did not believe he could take the life of another person. I honor and respect him for that, though I do not necessarily agree with his interpretation of "thou shalt not kill". I will never knowingly consume an alcoholic beverage (NOT trying to start any rabbit trails please) although I have to be Biblically honest and say that I do not believe that tee-totalism is taught scripturally. I have a personal conviction about my witness and I bind myself by that conviction.

I think we have liberty in these areas, but must be sure we can do so without condemnation. If your heart condemns you, better to abstain.

twayneb,

I find our positions very interesting. Counter to your situation, I did not come from a pro-gun family by any means. In fact, my family (mom and her relatives) does not like that I hunt or fish or tote a gun. My family raised me to be quite liberal but I turned into a bible-thumping, conservative redneck!

But I truly believe that if there another way that doesn't involve killing someone, to take that route, but most certainly not at the cost of other's lives.

I have played many different scenarios in my mind. Balancing justice and mercy is hard. Actually it would be impossible without the Holy Spirit. Frankly, there are plenty of times where I thought the Lord should discipline me, and He showed me mercy. So I definitely need Him telling me how to handle this stuff.

let me put it to you like this marcmc,

If someone broke into your house and threatened to kill you and your family, who would you call? The police, right?

Why would you do that?

....because they have a gun and can save you....

It isn't that far of a stretch of the imagination to understand why, where it is legal, a man would choose to carry a firearm.

Well, I don't think carrying a gun / being a believer is incompatible? Would you object to me hunting with a gun? Would you object to me carrying a pistol while I am bowhunting so that I can shoot a hog if he attempts to attack me?

That being said, guns and believers are not incompatible by nature.

The issue is what you do with it.

It's not political for me. It's a matter of principal and honor. How can I look to the Lord and say that I did what was right, while simultaneously allowing those who are innocent to be taken advantage of?

And this is in no way directed at you. We come from very different cultures. However, I also react the same way that you did, when I think of grown men being cowards while they watch the innocent be destroyed. I most certainly expect an unbeliever to act that way, but not a believer.

Lastly, you and I may not have the same calling/gifting, hence our differences. This issue is very important to me, regardless of any politics. If guns were illegal in the USA, we'd still be having a similar discussion to this because I'd be advocating using your bare hands to defend the innocent. A gun is a tool and a means to an end--nothing more.

Marc your argument sounds like when pit bulls here in the US kill some kid, and the owner says "but he was so gentle and never bit before." There is always a first time.

My house was never broke into growing up nor have any of my dwellings I have lived in since then ever been broken into. But there is always a first time. If I heard someone breaking in at night I would likely die of fright so I would not have a chance to decide whether to shoot.

Almost daily here in the good ol USA we hear of home invasions when the owners are home. Usually they are drug crazed thugs.

I agree that the likelihood of it happening is low; but we buy insurance and spend a lot for it to guard against relatively rare events (house fire, car accidents etc).

I can understand why a man would choose not to protect his family from thugs. But that is certainly not me.

Let me ask you this- if a thug broke into my house, under your philosophy could I brain him with a fireplace poker?

marcmc,

All right, brother. I have made my first point. And I can be wrong, for sure. Show me according to the Scripture where I am erring, please. I am not arguing. But I am willing to hear what you have to say.

Those verses apply to a person individually and is talking about offenses and insults not murder.

What do you think Jesus would have done to a child abuser he caught in the act? Preach to him? Woe to that man.

quote: Brother and maybe we should rely more upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to deliver us. Then rely on our conceal and carry.

I guarantee that if my home was invaded and we were in it, I'd be doing both.

If we are honest, there is no NT scripture that says a man cannot protect his family with force from persons intending to do them grievous bodily harm.

The idea of being kind to an enemy and not responding in kind to insults and offenses, which IS clearly taught in the NT, does not speak to a situation where an evil person is intending to kill or maim loved ones who we are supposed to protect.

quote: "The case your positioned to make is the reason the US is awash in violence. Every man doing what is right in their own eyes."

Not at all. I do not take it upon myself to invade peoples' homes and murder them. Those persons that choose to do that must face the consequences.

I'm glad for you that there are no bad guys in Canada that you need to worry about. It's a non-issue for you then. Why would you care if someone else feels there is a real risk and they need to do something to protect their family?

You still have made no valid biblical case that would forbid it.

Hi Marcmc

This thread was a very noncontinuous thread from both sides, everyone was simply sharing their thoughts without criticizing others or trying to be overbearing with their views.
everyone was respecting David's request :

"Please feel free to share your thoughts and convictions and lets just respect others who might be on the opposite side of the issues in what we ourselves believe."

I have asked you before and I will ask you again please leave your national pride out of these discussions

Before I was a christian I was in the United States Air Force.

Then, the following enlistment document was obsolete in my depraved atheistic mind.

Some SI readers may be unaware of some of what this document states, and that you're bound to it by an oath. Here's some significant words which are stated therein.

ENLISTMENT/REENLISTMENT Document ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES

PARTIAL STATEMENT OF EXISTING UNITED STATES LAWS
DD FORM 4/1 (PAGE 2),

FOR ALL ENLISTEES OR REENLISTEES:

I understand that many laws, regulations, and military customs will govern my conduct and require me to do things under this agreement that a civilian does not have to do. I also understandthat various laws, some of which are listed in this agreement,
directly affect this enlistment/reenlistment agreement. Some examples of how existing laws may affect this agreement are explained in paragraphs 10 and 11. I understand that I cannot change these laws but that Congress may change these laws, or
pass new laws, at any time that may affect this agreement, and that I will be subject to those laws and any changes they make to thisagreement. I further understand that:

My enlistment/reenlistment agreement is more than an employment agreement. It effects a change in status from civilian to military member of the Armed Forces. As a member of the Armed Forces of the United States, I will be:

Required to obey all lawful orders and perform all assigned duties.

Subject to separation during or at the end of my enlistment.

Required upon order to serve in combat or other hazardous situations.

Laws and regulations that govern military personnel may change without notice to me. Such changes may affect my status, pay, allowances, benefits, and responsibilities as a member of the Armed Forces REGARDLESS of the provisions of this enlistment/
reenlistment document.

CONFIRMATION OF ENLISTMENT OR REENLISTMENT

IN A REGULAR COMPONENT OF THE ARMED FORCES:

I, , do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same;and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

SIGNATURE OF ENLISTEE/REENLISTEE
DATE SIGNED (YYYYMMDD)

ENLISTMENT OFFICER CERTIFICATION

The above oath was administered, subscribed, and duly sworn to (or affirmed) before me this date.

Frank stated,

"I am still strongly anti-war. I am a pacifist in the sense that I do not believe saints should be fighting wars on behalf of governments or countries."

What Frank stated is the reason I wrote the above.

I do hope it helps some others to realize that there are more reasons to not join the military than the non-resistance doctrine.

I myself have a CCW as well.

Thank you, marcmc for clarifying your position. I very much understand where you are coming from. There is a lot wrong with our country and some things deeply sadden me. There is an insatiable love for violence here in the states. It can quickly turn defending the innocent into rebelling against governing authorities or justifying selfish ambitions.

I appreciate the discussion but let's get down to something more basic. How can we as believers fulfill these verses. Let's discuss all the various situations in which we could fulfill these:

Psalm 82:3-4 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

Proverbs 24:11-12 Rescue those who are being taken away to death; hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter. If you say, "Behold, we did not know this,” does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who keeps watch over your soul know it, and will he not repay man according to his work?

Jeremiah 21:12 O house of David! Thus says the Lord: "‘Execute justice in the morning, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed, lest my wrath go forth like fire, and burn with none to quench it, because of your evil deeds.’”

One way is that if we hear someone being maligned or slandered, then we can defend them. I have been in this situation many many times.

Several years ago there was an elderly woman whom lived at home alone, an intruder broke into her home through a window while she was in bed. As loud as she could scream, she yelled for her husband to grab the gun and get in there quickly.
After she screamed for her husband to grab the gun. The intruder quickly fled out of the house.

The woman had been a widow for 20 years.

I practice shooting. I go to the range. I dry-fire and practice holster draws.

My wife goes to the range, too.

There are specific individuals that, when their prison sentences are through, I have very good reason to believe they will attempt to harm my family. So, yeah.

I'm 49 years old. For the first 48 years of my life I shot a gun less than, oh, 30 times including the VERY few hunting excursions I ever bothered to go on.

Now I am gaining proficiency in shooting technique.

When any one or more of these folks decide to take their anger out on my family because they did the time for their crime and they weren't nearly as smart as they thought they were when they broke the law, I'll be ready. When their family members lurk and gawk and sulk and threaten --- I'm doing my best to be ready.

The world's a mess, folks. The system is a mess. People who grew up believing the system provides justice and due process, and who probably banked on that a bit too much when they outsmarted themselves and committed crimes, ran into the cold hearted truth that justice is not blind and that the system is keenly in need of feeding people to prisons in one of the nation's largest jobs programs: law enforcement/corrections/criminal justice. Guilt or innocence means little to a man who spends years inside a hellhole. He just wants to get even.

Defense lawyers are the first to be blamed for their clients' woes. We spend as much time defending ourselves against our clients as we do defending our clients. We are nobody's friend. Society puts us in the same tier of worthlessness as they put our clients. So, yeah, we're targets. I'm a target.

But, I decided this year after a few cases in particular, almost 20 years into this career, that I'm not going to be just a target anymore. I'm at least going to try and make you have to duck and dodge the very thing you're firing at me before I let my family be taken by you.

I'm not making any apologies for that.

Well you know Mr. Bill, he always tries to brings a little humor around, so I guess I will comment on this thread. "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away". :-)

And to both of your posts Brother Mark, I say Amen and Amen.

But I truly believe that if there another way that doesn't involve killing someone, to take that route, but most certainly not at the cost of other's lives.

havok: I am in TOTAL agreement with what you said here. I also believe that if their is ANY other way, I will do my very best to take that route. But...sometimes there is just no other way. I think anyone in his right mind would pray to never be in a situation where there is no other option.

Marc mc: I live in what is considered the buckle of the Bible Belt of the USA. We have very low crime rates overall. But we are plagued with production, sale, and use of Methamphetamines. Many crimes that are committed are drug related. We also live at the convergence of the I-44 and I-49 corridors which carry traffic from east coast to west coast and from mexico to canada. Lots of people enter our area that are not from here and do not share our local values.

In the past five years our immediate area (within 10 miles of my home) has been plagued by two home invasions. In each case the couple that was at home was gunned down. I do not live in fear, but I do believe in being prepared to protect my family if this happened in my home.

Your culture has very much blurred which spirit you are of brother. In the way a fish has no concept of being wet.

So true marc. You are absolutely right. Our culture in which we are brought up shapes us so that our own experiences seem totally normal while another man's culture seems foreign. We must take care that we do not confuse a cultural viewpoint with what is either right or wrong.

Awakened-No offense but I am shocked by this thread:-)

As for as owning a gun, I own many, and I don't really care what anyone but the Holy Spirit would have to say about it. I'm not lead by man's opinion's at all, never will be, but I do respect everyone's opinion, sometimes we don't always get that same respect, but life will go on.

brenda7...Also shocked.

If l lived in a gun owning culture, l would think that owning one myself would be supporting that culture which l would not wish to do.

UK Drink Driving Statistics

Drink Driving Statistics

Ӣ On average 3,000 people are killed or seriously injured each year in drink drive collisions.

Ӣ Nearly one in six of all deaths on the road involve drivers who are over the legal alcohol limit.

Ӣ Drinking and driving occurs across a wide range of age groups but particularly among young men aged 17-29 in both casualties and positive breath tests following a collision. The Government's most recent drink drive campaigns aims to target this group.

Ӣ The latest provisional figures from 2004, show that some 590 people were killed in crashes in which a driver was over the legal limit, 2,350 were seriously injured and 14,050 were slightly injured.

Ӣ And if you think you won't get caught, more than half a million breath tests are carried out each year and on average 100,000 are found to be positive.

1) I have a lock on my front door.
2) I have a lock on my front gate.
3) I lock both at night.
4) I do in fact even lock my car when I visit a store or restaurant.
5) I do not leave any valuables in sight in my car.
6) I have a dog who would probably eat you if you showed up and threatened our family:-)
7) I have car and medical insurance!
8) I shoot snakes and squash spiders.
9) I watch over the activities of my children, especially the company they keep.
10) I have activated and use "find my iphone" for members of my family.
11) We use porn filters in our home and keep certain technologies from certain age kids.
12) I own axes, machetes, chainsaws, clubs, chains, baseball bats and lots of explosive gasoline.

An I-phone??? Seriously??? I thought I was in agreement with everything you wrote until that line.

brenda7,

I appreciate your opinion on this.

However, contrary to popular belief, I do not look forward to killing anyone. I do look forward to deer hunting, duck hunting, rabbit hunting, elk hunting (if I get to go this year), squirrel hunting, and hog hunting. They all require the use of a firearm if I want to be more successful than not.

And I don't even hunt just for sport. I hunt for meat because it saves me piles of money in the long run. This last year I was working 2 different jobs and missed the entire hunting season and have had to buy meat at the store a LOT this year. It's awful and costs me way more money than I want.

***********************************

We are missing the foundational principals here. The question we need to ask ourselves is what does it mean to be a defender of the innocent? What does it mean to seek justice?

We keep getting hung up on guns, but I don't really desire to convince anyone that guns are okay. That's a surface-level issue. The question you need to ask yourself is if you saw someone being raped, would you just let it happen? Tell me, how are you practicing mercy?

If you saw a brother starving and cold, would you just start chanting that they be fed and warmed in Jesus' name? We can't hyper spiritualize this issue. There are people whose lives are counting on this kind of stuff. I for one am not going to look someone in the eye and tell them I let them be raped or let them starve because I believe Jesus wants me to be a pacifist. Good luck with them coming to know the Lord after you tell them that.

Guns or no, that is what is being advocated.

Quote: Hey bro. Still wanting to know if you own a boomerang and know how to use it? :)

I had one when I was a kid. Once I threw it and it struck my younger bro in the forehead and it caused a decent gash. I convinced him that if he told dad he would be in trouble too so he didn't tell.

It was a lot of fun and really did work- although I would not have dared to try to catch it as it might have taken a finger off.

I had it for a while but we had so many near injuries with it that finally I had the sense to break it in half and toss it down the sewer grate.

Brenda7....When you go a-hunting, do you make sure you take out only males in case a female has young? Just wondering.

I do believe God would intervene. I believe He can and will do it through me, if He chooses. I have enough scripture and enough commandments from the Lord to know what is expected of me in a situation like that. I am very much to depend upon the Lord; however, I am to do what He has already commanded me to do, which is to defend the innocent. He himself will give me the strength, wisdom, and focus necessary for the situation.

Let me tell you a true story:

My best friend's wife went into labor one November morning 3 years ago. The hospital sent her home, saying that it was false labor.

That evening, it got worse and they called the hospital who still stated that it was false labor. She had already had 2 children. At approx. 2AM, she woke up her husband and said the baby was coming.

They went outside and he tried to get her into the car, but she said it was too late and that she was having the baby right then. It was just above freezing during this time.

So, without any knowledge, without any understanding of what birthing a baby was like, he cried out to God. He specifically said, "God! If there was ever a time I needed You, it's right now!" He delivered his daughter, but she was not breathing. He remembered that babies have stuff in their lungs that prevents breathing, so he used his mouth to suck all of that out of her. She still wasn't breathing. He then performed CPR and resuscitated his child. She is now 3 and doing wonderfully well.

*******************

The point of my story is this: had he simply just cried out to God and done nothing, his prayer would not be counted as faith because there are no accompanying works.

His daughter would also be dead.

********************

I appreciate everyone's comments on this. I have said what I said. I would really like to have dug into the scriptures more on this issue, but since we mostly are just using logic for this discussion, then what little scripture was brought up has been largely ignored.

If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. James 1:5

God wants us to use our wisdom. I like Brother Mark live in a remote area, and have had folks show up at all hours, and asking for everything from, does so and so live here, to can I get a cigarette. I always greet them nicely, unless they wake me up, I might be a little grumpy, but trust me I'll be packing, why? because God wants me to use my wisdom. I sure don't want to be killed and meet God at the pearly gates, and him tell me, Mr. Bill I told you to carry your weapon when you went out yonder, but you listened to the naysayers instead of my wisdom, and now your in Heaven, and I still needed you on earth, thanks a lot! :-)

Well I said my peace, not getting into any scripture battles, because listening to the spirit in my world, comes before the word. "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks." John 4:23
Notice he put spirit before truth? many won't see anything in that arrangement, but I do.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
God Bless!

I am noticing something here. As an American, I would never condone a Christian partaking of alcohol, even moderately. Do we have the Biblical freedom to do so? Absolutely! Do we have the cultural freedom to do so? Perhaps not, given the rampant alcohol abuse prevalent in our culture.

As a German, or as a Canadian, my sister and brother would never carry a firearm for the purpose of either self defense or defense of others. Do we have the Biblical freedom to do so? I cannot find any clear scriptural prohibition. It is really an issue of personal conscience. Do we as Americans have the cultural freedom to do so? Yes. Might it be culturally prohibited in Germany or Canada? Possibly. I am not German nor am I Canadian

The same failure to understand culturally derived perspectives might just exist on both sides of the argument.

I would hope that no American would ever want to carry a concealed weapon with the desire to use it. I pray I never have to do so. Just as no German Christian would ever want to abuse alcohol to the point of drunkenness.

The other issue is our trust in God, and it is a very valid issue. I have every confidence that God will protect me. But if I am at Wal-Mart and a man suddenly begins shooting other people at the store, I hope to be able to protect those people.

When we deal with brothers and sisters from another nation than our own, I will be that we will find other areas where the cultures clash. I hope we can give one another some latitude in those cases.

Brenda-

You may recall that Peter took off the soldiers ear without being attacked. That's when Jesus told him to put his sword away.

Further, "avenging" is an entirely different concept than "defending."

The two have nothing to do with each other. Defending is a person preventing a thug from killing their family. Avenging is hunting the thug down after the fact and killing him.

And obviously the Genesis 9:6 verse you quoted applies to murder not self defense or war.

Hi all,

Stopping in quickly to share a link at the request of a dear sister, MeriBeth, who cannot log in to post at the moment. Regarding the sermon she had this to say, in part:

"..listened yesterday to the sermon on fear by Joseph Tson..His testimony does not even mention guns but the foundation of GOD's sovereignty is paramount during persecution.."

Here is a link to the sermon:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=19651

Today on my way home from work, two rough looking guys 'one with many tattoos' where stopped on side of the road.
So I stopped and asked them if there was anything I could do to help..., as nonchalant as anything else, the rough looking guy asked me ? ' Would you by chance have a gun with you, He than pointed to the ground in front of there car and said she is suffering something terrible and we just want to put her out of her misery, a little doe had been hit and these rough looking guys where all heart broke over it.

And than as soon as I walked in the house I had a call from the NRA of which I am a member and very supportive :)

A few years ago a lifelong friend of mine was on a youth mission trip to Atlanta. They stopped the bus at a convenience store. My buddy went alone into the men's room. Three Hispanic men walked up to the stall behind him. They spoke Spanish to each other while he did his business in the urinal. He looked over his shoulder. He slid his right hand into his pocket where he had a small 9 mm pistol. He prayed. The three Mexicans promptly walked on either side of him and right up against his back. He said, "Y'all need to know that I'm armed." And, he pulled out his pistol. They ran away.

He went about that all wrong, IMO, but the point is that he prayed, they made their move and the Lord provided a healthy fear for life when Hank produced his 9 mm and spun on them.

I'm thankful he was armed.

///Psalm 94:22Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

22 But the Lord is my refuge;
my God is the rock of my protection.

__________________________

I suppose God does not really mean this. This all just pretty, poetic language. The Lord does not really mean for us to trust him and him alone for protection ////

Many of the psalms where written by David ..
How did Goliath die ?? Was David not trusting in the Lord when he used a sling ???

Pearl, told of a man in the amish cult whom would not defend his family neither with force nor by calling the law, So some bad men figured this out and would periodically rape his wife and daughters.

Since David fought Goliath in the Old Covenant, I won't armchair QB how he might run a different play in the New Covenant. I don't think we'd get it just right.

But, if David had been standing at a urinal in a convenience store in Atlanta, GA with three thugs bearing down on his back while he was taking a moment for himself on a youth trip, I figure David may have done what Hank did. I think he might have even thought about his wives and his kids as his life flashed in front of him in that delicate position. I think he may have hearkened to Paul's words that a man who won't provide for his own family has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel as he rightly calculated that he IS the provision for his family. I think he may have also prayed that God would frighten them so no violence and no harm would be required. I think he may have zipped up and grabbed him a little wine for his stomach's sake on the way back to the church bus. I think he might've said, "I'm thankful to live in a country where I can protect myself and my family with arms and that the Lord tolerates me executing wrath on him who practices evil," as he thankfully recalls Romans 13:4. He might've said, too, "I love those guys with your love, Jesus. Thank you that I didn't have to shoot 'em. Save them, please. And if they do keep rebelling, let them rebel on someone who prays first and shoots second, and give them time to run, and if they don't run, steady the hand and aim of your servant who stops their evildoing."

Bear-

I started a thread called 'the Lord is my protector??" to discuss what that means as a practical matter.

Savannah made the point in that thread that the Lord is also his provider- but he still has to work for a living. God does not fill out fridges and put gas in our cars.

So the verse "the Lord is my protector" cannot mean we have no responsibility for our own protection.

I bet I can rattle off several things right quick that you do to protect yourself. I am sure you can too.

For example, I wear a seatbelt. Why should I, if the Lord is my protector?

Bear, I think about it daily. If I am armed, your questions are on my mind. No machismo here.

It is a Hobson's choice. If I protect myself or my family or some innocent other at the expense of taking a wrongdoer's life I am saddled with regret even though I am right. A precious life is gone. But, if I fail to protect myself or them in the face of an imminent mortal threat, and an innocent life is taken, I am saddled with regret for doing nothing to save a precious life and I did not prevent a wrong.

I pray that God guides my moment by moment judgment as I CCW. I try to be aware of my surroundings but I am not looking for someone to shoot. I am looking for someone to praise God that they aren't in the situation of being a threat and that I am not in the situation of having to attempt to protect at their expense.

I will repeat. If I had no one else depending on me I might decide to live by faith without a gun. But I have knowledge of evil from the tree that gave it, and I live among too many others who love that knowledge. So i live by faith with a gun.

95 posts and everyone that is pro gun will still own/carry a gun, and the ones that are not pro gun won't. So other than a lot of differing opinions, what have we accomplished? Just think, we could have been devoting our valuable time to things that really matter, out witnessing to the lost.

1516 did not even want to voice and opinion. :-)

Well let me refill my think tank, and I might pull out a few more opinions out of my hat. :-)

לאלוהים כל כך אהב את העולם שהוא נתן הוליד את בנו יחידו

Ok before anyone has an anxiety attack trying to figure that out, it's Hebrew, and it says for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son.

Deer season is big in my area, some of the local schools let out a couple of days for deer season.
I took my hunters saftey course in the sixth grade, all of the 6th and 8th graders where required to.
I am glad they did.
I am planning to take my 6 year old deer hunting during youth season this year. we started him practicing with a 22lr he will either use a 243 or sks for the actual hunt.