CHINESE CHRISTIANS ARE PRAYING THAT PERSECUTION COMES TO THE AMERICAN CHURCH

CHINESE CHRISTIANS ARE PRAYING THAT PERSECUTION COMES TO THE AMERICAN CHURCH

"Stop praying for persecution in China to end, for it is through persecution that the church has grown,” he responded.

It is shocking to our Western minds but this is the reality that the Lord is active and growing His Church wonderfully in many countries as the Western church slowly apostates here. May God have mercy on us and let us embrace persecutions and sufferings for the Name of Christ.

That is interesting. I have never thought it was God's will to pray for persecution on my fellow believers. That seems so violent and sadistic.

Is this really for the Church to decide? With friends like this who needs enemies? I think it is prideful to decide who we think needs some persecution.

Psalms 122:6
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

1 Timothy 2:1-2
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

I usually pray for my fellow believers to prosper and be in health even as their soul prospers.

When they are sick, I don't pray they get worse, I pray they get healed.

I pray for revival, not the destruction of people. How God brings about revival is His business.

PP,

I did not even know you were posting when I posted. But you got right down to reality, the nitty gritty.

Richard Wurmbrand, who was persecuted for 14 years did not refuse to be rescued (norwegian Christians paid a ransom) and choose instead to stay in prison and be tortured. No, he comes to the U.S. and starts a relief mission for persecuted Christians. He does not come to the states to start prayer meetings, praying for more persecution to come to Christians.

I think some Christians view persecution in some weird romantic way, which causes them to make strange comments about persecution. They talk so much about it, they almost elevate it to a level of idolatry.

Even Jesus prayed, "that if it be His Father's will this cup (of suffering) would pass from Him".

by sherri2 on 2016/9/2 0:24:05

I genuinely believe that our brothers and sisters who have gone through the fire of persecution know something we don't understand. They don't pray like this to see us defeated, on the contrary, they love us and know the change it brings to hearts and lives,and the joy that comes out of suffering....not to mention the most important factor that will be sparked is the salvation of souls. If you get a chance, watch the video, "believers in persecution, the 3 non negotiables" by Nik Ripken. In our flesh persecution does not make sense, it sounds cruel, but the Lord means it for our good. We cannot partake of our Lord without willing to suffer with Him.

Do you think the only kind of suffering is being locked up in jail and beaten and then killed? Why do you assume American Christians don't suffer? Do you only recognize a certain type of suffering that is only found in other countries?

So, I should pray for my Pakistani and Afghan brothers and sisters to have more acid thrown into their faces?

I like the verses you gave, and I understand how God uses persecution, but I don't see any verses from you that instruct the Believer to pray for their brothers and sisters to be persecuted, tortured, maimed and killed.

I'm sorry, I don't have an answer for that. Only the Lord knows. After watching the Insanity of God, I learned that 75% of believers are going through horrific persecution worldwide. Those who were interviewed said persecution is normal. They said western countries, such as America, are abnormal, and that persecution will come to us. I encourage you to dig up information and learn from our family in persecution. We don't suffer the same way they do, perhaps there are a few who truly do, but we are a very touchy feely country that shutters at the thought of any suffering....including myself, but I know the Lord will give His people the strength to endure it.

Am I understanding this correctly ?? They are praying that harm comes upon other Christians,, that they themselves try to avoid by "keeping undercover" ??

That is so ironic.

"The underground church prays for things Western Christians would never think to pray for, such as the strength to never deny Christ under torture or to be blessed to possess a Bible. In keeping with Jesus' command in Matthew 5:44-45, the church prays for those who persecute. At the top of the North Korean church's list is the salvation of Kim Jong-Il." - Carl Moeller

---

In a media release, Reverend Eric Foley, CEO of Seoul USA, says he was surprised when he first asked members of the North Korean underground church how Americans could pray for them.

"They answered, 'You pray for us? We pray for you!' When I asked why, they responded, 'Because Western Christians often put so much faith in their prosperity and political freedoms that they don't know what it's like to have to depend completely on God. And because of that, they often do not get to know him in all the ways he invites us to.'"

---

"Christian woman in Middle East tells Western Christians: Don't pray for end to persecution"

"The persecution is getting worse and worse and worse," Maryam said. "But on the other hand actually, what has encouraged me, encouraged my faith, encouraged my church, encouraged everybody Christian in [the region] is that the Church is increasing."

"We are not afraid or worried that the persecution will increase. We are just feeling that this is God's time," Maryam said. "God is working perfectly now in the Middle East. Even with all these crazy stuff happening, God is really working now."

"So, I want to encourage you that, of course, you need to pray for your brothers and sisters in the Middle East who are suffering for being Christians and for their faith, but I am asking you to pray a different prayer," she said. "Don't pray for the persecution to be stopped. But pray for the Christians there, for their boldness, their encouragement, for their faith and that they can all be witnesses for God's work and for God."

from: http://ow.ly/zbNj303P6VY

Am I a soldier of the cross,
A follow’r of the Lamb?
And shall I fear to own His cause,
Or blush to speak His name?

Must I be carried to the skies
On flow’ry beds of ease,
While others fought to win the prize,
And sailed through bloody seas?

Are there no foes for me to face?
Must I not stem the flood?
Is this vile world a friend to grace,
To help me on to God?

Sure I must fight if I would reign;
Increase my courage, Lord;
I’ll bear the toil, endure the pain,
Supported by Thy Word.

Thy saints in all this glorious war
Shall conquer, though they die;
They see the triumph from afar,
By faith’s discerning eye.

When that illustrious day shall rise,
And all Thy armies shine
In robes of vict’ry through the skies,
The glory shall be Thine.

I think we have some draft dodgers in the forum.

John 15:20

Remember the word I spoke to you: ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will also keep yours.

Luke 14:26-27

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, and even his own life-- He cannot be my disciple.
_________________________________

Saints are we supposing that we are greater than Jesus Himself? Our Master taught that a slave is not greater than his master. Yet I seen in some of these posts that we are so arrogant as to say that we are above persecution? Are we greater than Christ? He had a cross to carry. Are we greater than Jesus as to say that we to do not have a cross to carry? Saints that is a very dangerous arrogance for us to embrace.

Are we greater than those brothers and sisters who are carrying the cross and spilling their blood for Jesus? Are we in our American Christianity saying I'm looking to go to heaven on flowery beds of ease while they in the persecuted church are sailing the stormy seas? Against such arrogance on our part is very dangerous.

Is it possible that some of you worship your family more than the Lord Jesus Christ? Have you laid your families on the altar as Lena and Samar had to lay their children on the altar and lay one another on the altar in the middle of war-torn Syria?

I do not believe our persecuted brothers and sisters are wanting to see loved ones raped. Or acid thrown in their faces. But I believe that they are praying that persecution will be to us a Refiner's Fire. We are so entrenched in our American version of Christianity that is so comfortable and so Joel Olsteen. We have forgotten that there is a cross that we are to embrace. Across that requires us to even lay down our lives. And yes lay down the lives of our loved ones. These are not my thoughts brothers and sisters. But Jesus taight if we love our families more than him then we are not worthy to be His disciples. His words. Not mine.

But we have become so arrogant as to think that we are above persecution? Saints this is very dangerous attitude on our part. God has called us to take up a cross and even enter into the school of suffering that Jesus himself went through. I know this goes against the grain of everything that we've been taught in America. But we must lay down this American Christianity at the cross. And see what true Christianity is. True Christianity is a cross. True Christianity is following One who took up His cross. The question is will we take up our cross? Jesus will not let us avoid the issue of the cross. There are only two choices regarding the cross. We either embrace it. Or we reject it. The choice is ours. But one thing we cannot do is avoid it.

My thoughts.

A lot of rhetoric here, but no one is showing where we are commanded to pray for persecution for fellow believers. What does that prayer even sound like?

I see warnings in the Scriptures about persecution, and encouragement to bear up under it, and Christians fleeing from it, but don't see anyone in the NT praying for persecution for other Believers.

Saul (before he became Paul), encouraged the Pharisees to bring persecution against the Church. The Church was not cheering him on, they were fleeing.

I have searched the Scriptures and don't see where it is the will of God that we pray for persecution to come against other believers. Lots of scriptures on the reality of persecution, but zero scriptures asking God to bring pain and suffering to the Church.

2Tim 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

And Bear, proudpapa is right, you are misrepresenting our words. I could use a stronger word but would like to give you a chance to make things right.

Beautiful posts Greg & Lisa.

No one is likely praying, "oh God, let their women be raped, their daughters sold as sex slaves & their fathers and sons killed." That's either a misunderstanding or straw man hyperbole for the sake of winning the argument.

But I could see them praying that "God do whatever it takes, including judgement, persecution, or great calamity if necessary to awaken the church in the West." I myself have prayed the same prayer in the throne room many times over the last 15+ years. Anyone who has spent much time in ministry (& especially street or marketplace evangelism) knows why one would pray such a prayer in a spirit of holy travail & intercession. It's not out of a "martyr complex" or a "spirit of abuse". It's the same type spiritual & eternal vision & mentality with which Paul could boast in his sufferings for Christ, the Glory of God & the testimony to the lost's sake. This is birthed in the prayer room in intercession & communion in the throne room of heaven, not in just a purely theological concordance search for "proof-text" verses to confirm Or deny "what seems right to me" already.

Hold on...just grabbing my popcorn.

Jeff, back already???

In the west where we have freedom, it is very difficult to understand why God allows persecution. That's why the documentary some of us just watched is called, "Insanity of God"....because to our understanding, it all seems insane, yet God has a much bigger plan.

When I read in Isaiah 53 that it pleased God to crush and smite His Only Son.....that floored me, and yet Jesus was without sin. Our brothers and sisters who are being crushed understand this. Peter tried to stop Jesus from going to the cross...yet look what Jesus said to him. This can't be looked at with human reasoning, it has to be looked at spiritually.

Isaiah 53:3-10
He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they made His grave with the wicked””
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand

Mathew 16:21-28

21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.

22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”

23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Luke 14:25-33

25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it”” 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’? 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

2 Timothy 3:12-13

12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.

Hey Jeff, welcome back. We hardly missed you. It's hard to stay away, eh?

Nothing regarding "God do whatever it takes, including judgment, persecution, calamity to wake up this or that church". You don't know of what spirit you are. Sons of thunder??

1.) FOR GODLY LIVING:
-- 2 Cor. 13:7 "Now we pray to God that you do no wrong; not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right…."

-- 2 Cor. 13:9 (NIV) "...and our prayer is for your perfection."

-- Phil. 1:9-11 "And this I pray…that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ."

-- Col. 1:9-10 "…we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will…so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects…."

-- 1 Thes. 3:12-13 "…may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all men…so that He may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus…."

-- 1 Thes. 5:23 (NIV) "May God Himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints."

-- 2 Thes. 1:11 (NIV) "With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of His calling, and that by His power He may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith."

-- 1 Tim. 2:1 "First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, in order that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity."

2.) FOR MINISTRY OPPORTUNITY AND SUCCESS:
-- Rom. 1:9-11 "For God…is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you, always in my prayers making request, if perhaps now at last by the will of God I may succeed in coming to you. For I long to see you in order that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established."

-- Rom. 15:30-31 "Now I urge you, brethren…to strive together with me in your prayers to God for me, that I may be delivered from those who are disobedient in Judea, and that my service for Jerusalem may prove acceptable to the saints...."

-- Eph. 6:19 "...and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel...."

-- Col. 1:10 (NIV) "And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord…bearing fruit in every good work…."

-- 1 Thes. 3:10 (NIV) "Night and day we pray most earnestly that we may see you again and supply what is lacking in your faith."

-- 2 Thes. 1:11 (NIV) "We constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of His calling, and that by His power He may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith."

-- 2 Thes. 3:1 "Finally, brethren, pray for us that the word of the Lord may spread rapidly and be glorified, just as it did also with you."

-- Phile.1:6 (NIV) "I pray that you may be active in sharing your faith, so that you will have a powerful understanding of every good thing we have in Christ."

3.) FOR STRENGTHENING:
-- Eph. 3:16-17 (NIV) "I pray that out of His glorious riches He may strengthen you with power through His Spirit in your inner being so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith."

-- Col. 1:10-11 (NIV) "And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord…being strengthened with all power according to His glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience…."

-- 1 Thes. 3:13 (NIV) "May He strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God…."

-- 2 Thes. 2:16 "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ and God our Father comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word."

4.) FOR INCREASED KNOWLEDGE...
A. OF THE LORD
-- Eph. 1:17 (NIV) "I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation so that you may know Him better…."

-- Col. 9-10 "…we have not ceased to pray for you…that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord...increasing in the knowledge of God."

B. Of HIS WILL:
-- Phil. 1:9-10 (NIV) "And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight, so that you may be able to discern what is best…."

-- Col. 1:9 "we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding...."

C. OF HIS LOVE:
-- Eph. 3:17b-19 (NIV) "And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power…to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge…."

D. OF THE HOPE OF HIS CALLING:
-- Eph. 1:18 "I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may know what is the hope of His calling…."

E. OF THE RICHES WE HAVE:
-- Eph. 1:18 "I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may
know…what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints…."

-- Phile.1:6 (NIV) "I pray that you may be active in sharing your faith, so that you will have a full understanding of every good thing we have in Christ."

F. OF HIS POWER:
-- Eph. 1:18-19 "I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may know...what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe."

5.) FOR MORE LOVE:
-- Phil. 1:9 "And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and discernment…."

-- 1 Thes. 3:12 "…and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all men, just as we also do for you."

-- 2 Thes. 3:5 "And may the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God and into the steadfastness of Christ."

6.) FOR GRACE AND PEACE:
-- 1 Cor. 1:3 "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
(Also similarly: 2 Cor. 1:2, 2 Cor. 13:14, Gal. 1:3, Gal 6:18, Eph. 1:2, Eph. 6:23-24, Phil. 1:2, Phil 4:23, Col. 1:26, 1 Thes. 1:1b, 1 Thes. 5:28, 2 Thes. 1:2, 1 Tim. 1:2, 1 Tim 6:21b, 2 Tim 1:2, Tit. 1:4, Phile. 1:3)

-- 2 Thes. 3:16 "Now may the Lord of peace Himself continually grant you peace in every circumstance."

7.) FOR CHRISTIANS TO BE IN ONE ACCORD:
-- Rom. 15:5-6 "Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus; that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

8.) FOR ISRAEL'S SALVATION:
-- Rom. 10:1 "Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them [Israel] is for their salvation."

9.) FOR CHRIST TO DWELL IN OUR HEARTS THROUGH FAITH:
-- Eph. 3:14-17 "…I bow my knees before the Father…that He would grant you…to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith...."

10.) FOR MORE HOPE:
-- Rom. 15:13 "Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit."

11.) FOR THE FULLNESS OF GOD:
-- Eph. 3:17-19 (NIV) "And I pray that you…may have power…to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge””that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

Actually the Scriptures do clearly in 2 Timothy: "Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.”

If we are not being persecuted then something is wrong.

So let us pray that we become book of Acts Christians again that are persecuted but are full of the Spirit of God and the miracles of our Lord in our midst.

---

"Western Christianity as an example, more often than not, finds Christians living so much like the fallen world around them14 that there is no need to persecute them. It is estimated that only 3-5% of Christians witness in North America. The salt has lost its flavor."

One editor had a sense of impending sudden persecution upon North America while watching a video of the 2004 tsunami that hit Indonesia: "The video showed the Tsunami spreading to different regions, hitting the shores of heavily populated areas. What struck me was the complacency of the people in the different areas, even the amusement of it all. At one beach they see a white crescent on the distant horizon spreading across the entire large bay. People watch mesmerized as this white crescent comes nearer and nearer. When the wave swallows up two ships in the bay some of the watchers realize the magnitude of the event that is about to strike but for most it is too late. In another shoreline people smile and laugh in amusement
as the entire bay is emptied of water and ships are beached It begins as a spectacle that is full of fun and amusement as people take pictures. As the water came back in they considered it something fun to watch. When the wave struck that shoreline, many were caught unawares; their running was in vain and multitudes were screaming as they were swallowed in the waves and dragged back out to sea, never to return. As I watched the video a great sobriety came over me””not just over the deaths of so many people””of what is about to come upon the Christians of the world, with some of us not being aware of the times we are living in. Many of us do not believe this could be the end of time. Just as the tsunami came without warning, so will the end times persecution come upon many Christians unawares.”

from: https://gfel.org/free-ebook/

The issue Greg, IS SHOULD WE PRAY FOR PERSECUTION, calamity, judgment to come upon the Church. Do you determine when to allow persecution in someone's life. If you see it happening, and can stop it, what do you do?

We are well aware that those who live godly will suffer persecution and that the scriptures state that judgment must begin at the house of God.

BUT, where are we commanded to pray for persecution for one another? This is the issue!

Read Paul's prayers that I posted. He is a good example of how to pray.

God Bless you Julius (sarcasm, slander, accusations & all),
I'm not looking to argue with you or to be offended by your sarcasm, slander, accusations, etc. Nor am I looking to spend long threads defending to you what I say & showing greater context to isolated "proof texts" you use. Done with that (that's what the Lord specifically spoke to me to just stop for now & let Him handle it). I was merely encouraging Greg & Lisa & contributing to the thread overall with something the Lord experientially by the spirit led me to that relates. I can do that without you having to dominate it, can't I? No sense in arguing with you. Never proven to be fruitful. At least for the sake of truth you poked your real head out and showed your heart & sarcastically "welcomed" me back, accused me of being a "son of thunder not knowing what spirit I am of", etc. (all in the first two lines when I wasn't even speaking directly to or attempting to chastise or correct you?).
Anyways, God bless you Julius, but these aren't "Julius' forums" from top to bottom friend.
God Bless,
Jeff

Dear Bothers and Sisters,

When reading this particular thread my stomach turned and my spirit churned. I would like to offer a word, not to choose sides.

It may be matter of semantics but it is important that we agree as believers and not get divided.

Jesus said persecution would come because of the Word of God. (Matt. 13:21)

Persecute as defined by Webster is: " to afflict or harass constantly so as to injure or distress; oppress cruelly for (esp.) reasons of religion, politics or race; to trouble or annoy constantly."

I think you would all agree that persecution is the domain of our adversary Satan.
Jesus said to Saul who was terrorizing Christians, "Saul, Saul why are you persecuting me? And Saul dumbfounded says "Who are you?"
"I am Jesus whom you are persecuting."

Forty years ago I heard a man from Brother Andrew's group who was smuggling Bibles into China. As young in the Lord as I was and without much money, I gave as small amount every month for Bibles to go into China. And I prayed regularly for the Chinese to hear the Word of God and be released from idols and communism and evil. Never once have I ever prayed for anyone or people to be persecuted. That comes with proclaiming the Word of God. I know many American missionaries who gave up all and went to China in my lifetime. And we all know of past missionaries like the Goforths, CT Studd, Gladys Alward, and forgive my memory, many besides Brother Andrew and nameless saints.

Please forgive me if I am offending some here, but I would rather hear that the Chinese and middle eastern saints were praying that the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ be lifted up in the N. American and Canadian church, that the saints here be rooted and grounded in the Word of God and that we stay true to Him no matter what comes against us.

Respectfully,
Sister Leslie

And it's interesting to me that you get offended when NDY, Rev & others have "cut you off" every time you share on the forums at times (rightfully so in some instances) with slander, unnecessary comments, accusations, & assaults, accuse me of "having a mean streak", but essentially do the exact thing you are quick to see and judge in others because I make a comment not even directed at you, just in a more veiled/masked/"clever" way? Before you go to remove splinters from my eyes (I undoubtedly likely have some still), might I suggest a quick "log-check" in the mirror?

I sincerely apologize for stirring an argument. It wasn't my intention, please forgive me. I think it's wise to delete this thread. I won't bring it up again because of contentious reasons.

Spiritual pride or maybe even jealousy.

Anyway, no one will answer the direct question of whether we should pray for persecution but I think Paul's prayers that I posted give us the answer. No.

I certainly have never prayed for Chinese Christians to get more and more persecution.

Sherri,

It's ok, threads should not be deleted because there is always something to learn. They are sometimes shutdown but i have never seen one deleted.

Jeff,

I am not judging Sherri. Big difference between you, NDY and Revenue.

We are talking about an issue not a person.

How's the family?

It's not Okay...the Lord is not pleased when we argue. I truly am sorry.

"Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am. I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need. I can do all things through Him who strengthens me."

Many godly men and women in the USA in the past and the present never suffered the kind of persecution that our precious brothers and sisters are undergoing in other countries around the world right now. We should never suggest that they would be better off if they had suffered the same fates that others do in China and other places.

Charles Finney was one of the most godly men that I know of and yet he was never persecuted in the same way as those in North Korea.

As Paul says and as Finney I am sure also believed, whether we are able to live with relative freedom or bound in chains, we can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens us.

Surely this is the correct new covenant response to luke warm living? Coming back to Jesus, to our first love!

Why look to old covenant methods of judgement when we have Jesus? Is that what we think it will take to revive the Church in America?

Interestingly I don't see these views shared by Finney and the other revivalists of previous great awakenings.

And what of the Welsh Revival and New Hebrides? Were they praying for severe persecution or where they praying for God to pour out His Spirit on His church and the community?

Perhaps that is the problem. We are so lacking in faith, so devoid of the Spirit, so lukewarm, so drunk with this world and so unwilling to live a life open to His power and glory that we feel like there is no other way we can be revived unless an outsider forces tortures us or throws us into shackles?

Maybe so, maybe that is what some people need. But that is really sad that our faith has grown so small and our hope so dim that this is the only solution we can see?

God help us all if that is what we have come to.

A difference of opinion is not the same as arguing. Are we to accept everything and never disagree?

Amen, Mark.

Julius,
Wow, more guilt by association & accusations lumping me in with people I didn't even know (something you accused me of and already found out you were wrong on before). Don't accuse and slander me & then make a comment like you care about my family. It's not genuine (it's a subtle slam at why I said I was leaving - duly noted). In fact, you are doing EXACTLY to me what you accuse Rev, NDY, etc. of doing to you. If you had a humble heart & waited on the Lord, I'm sure He would help you see this.

Sherri,
Don't apologize. I can read your heart in a good place on this. Some people on here are "textualists" (to a fault) & I understand what you are saying. And I think I understand the heart of the Underground Chinese church and appreciate their desire for the American church to wake up, rely on the Spirit of God & thrive/grow. Of course we don't pray such things for them. They already have persecution & are growing & thriving quite nicely. After decades of praying for America to "wake up & revive", one might resort to prophetic cries to the Lord to "do whatever it takes" with eternity & the age to come in mind, not momentary light afflictions in this life. I think I see the heart of the Chinese church, & appreciate it. Sure, I could argue with every specific word of it theologically, but I get it.
God Bless you!
Jeff

Jeff, I don't apologize for what I believe concerning persecution, but anything that causes arguments among the brethren is not wise. The Lord asks us if at all possible to be at peace with others. And....when a mans ways please the Lord he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. I'm not saying anyone here is my enemy....but arguments exalt themselves above the knowledge of God.

I am open to persecution in my life, whatever the Lord has for me, and it is good to have a healthy discussion about these matters. It should not descend to arguing though and it really only turns nasty when Jeff and Julius get it on:-)

This thread is not about praying for persecuted christians in other countries but "wishing" persecution on American christians.

We ought to be praying for the American church to come back to a first love for Jesus, not praying that she will look like the church in China or North Korea or some other place.

Can we all agree on that?

brother Jeff, first day back on the job and you are already back in the thick of it!!! Perhaps a more extended vacation was in order?

brother Greg, maybe its time you setup a "time out" room somewhere on the forum...a private sub-forum where naughty boys and girls are banished to duke it out with each other? :-)

Sorry, just trying to lighten things up a little...

Easy Mark ("naughty boy"? Really?),
I was simply encouraging Greg & Lisa & Sherri in their posts & making a short comment & seem to be "getting my butt handed to me" for sharing anything at all by those who seem to dominate the threads/posts anyways? Well, Whatever. As Solomon said, What things are, whatever is & the things that have been shall be I guess? Just really "the pot calling the kettle black" that's all.
God Bless,
Jeff

And I'm "back in the thick of it" through no fault of my own. I merely shared from my heart & was immediately slandered, falsely accused & sarcastically engaged. Go back and read the thread & see if I lie or tell the truth

1 Peter 1:5-7

You are being protected by God's power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. You rejoice in this, though now for a short time you have had to struggle in various trials so that the genuineness of your faith--more valuable than gold, which perishes though refined by fire-- may result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
________________________________

1st Peter is a book written to believers who are under persecution. Thus in the wider context of the book Peter is speaking to those Christians to see persecution as a means by which one's faith is purified. They see persecution as a means by which one's faith is refined. The idea being that their face would be free of impurities.

It was said that gold had to be put through a refining process 7 times. Ultimately if one who refined the gold could see their image in the gold. The gold was purified.

Then which prayer would I be comfortable praying. If I say God refine and purify my fairh so that Jesus may be seen in my character. And he uses persecution to do it. Would this be more acceptable to pray? Certainly so. And that He would use persecution to refine my faith. This is demonstrated in 1st Peter and other scriptures.

But would I be just as comfortable praying God use persecution to perfect my faith, to purify my faith, to make my character like Jesus so that He will be seen in me? Though a bit uncomfortable at first I think this prayer would be keeping in scripture given the fact of 1st Peter does speak that God will use persecution to perfect and conform and purifies one's faith and character in Jesus.

I believe this is the intent that our brothers and sisters are praying for us. They are praying that we will experience persecution so that our faith will be perfected and purified in Jesus. I believe our brothers and sisters are praying that persecution will come up on the church in America so that we will reflect more of the character of Christ as they are reflecting.

The church in America as much like spectators watching a spectator sport. We admire other athletes who are competing in the events. But we ourselves do not want to undergo the discipline and the training that they have undergone to compete in the events.

Thus the church in America will admire the persecuted church for what they are enduring by carrying the cross of Christ and undergoing the persecutions. We ourselves just don't want to undergo the same persecutions so that our character will be perfected as unto Jesus.

But then brethren Jesus is coming back for a pure and holy bride without spot or blemish. And the church in America hardly qualifies. Thus I see the only way that He will purify us will be through the fires of persecution. So I think our brothers and sisters in China and other places are right in praying that persecution will come up on the church in America.

My thoughts.

by jujashan4 on 2016/9/2 10:29:37
PP and Julius you're right - the scriptures don't say to pray for persecution for others.
But maybe you could let that slide now and be stirred and encouraged by our Chinese and Middle Eastern brethren example of trust in the faithfulness of our Lord.

Praise His wonderful name!!!

To access this thread now, you have to go to Articles and Sermons and click on (1,2,3,...5) unless Sherri puts the title back in.

Amen, brother. Thank you for confirming there is no example of praying for persecution in the scriptures. For a minute there I was wondering if I was missing something and praying wrong. That is why this thread led me to search the scriptures.

I have always been encouraged by anyone in any country that stays faithful to Jesus under persecution. I have been persecuted for my faith in Christ and can attest that it can yield many fruitful things in a Believer's life, but I don't pray that my brethren have bad things happen to them.

Jeff No offence to you but it would do you well to stop debating perpetually with those who continually manifest a different spirit. What's the point?
(I learned my lesson)

Saints,

It really is not proper that discussions be brought to this level of talking back and forth and making it very personal. We need to discuss the issue with grace and love or rather then do not post.

At the bottom of each post before pressing submit we read:

==
All our communication matters in the Lord and we ask that you consider that all our words will be accounted for by God one day: Matthew 12:36, James 1:26, Colossians 4:6. Speak with gentleness, with a servants heart. Imagine our Lord in the same room with you watching what you say to other believers. Speak to edify and love others and choose not always to be right but rather right in your attitude of humility and humbling yourself.
==

It would be good for saints to review this and look at these scriptures. We surely have something to listen from our persecuted brethren as they account for 60% + of the body of Christ world-wide. I would say we actually have much more to learn from them then they overall do from North America believers.

This thread is locked.