Why should we not pray for persecution?

1 Peter 1:5-7

You are being protected by God's power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. You rejoice in this, though now for a short time you have had to struggle in various trials so that the genuineness of your faith--more valuable than gold, which perishes though refined by fire-- may result in praise, glory, and honor at the
at the revelatiom of Jesus Chriat.

1 Peter 4:1-2

Therefore, since Christ suffered In the flesh, equip yourselves also with the same resolve-- because the one who suffered In the Flesh has finished with sin-- in order to live the remaining time in the flesh, no longer for human desires, but for God's will.

James 1:2-4

Consider it a great joy, my brothers, whenever you experience various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. But endurance must do its complete work, so that you may be mature and complete, lacking nothing.

Romabs 5:1-5

Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. We have also obtained access through him by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also rejoice in our afflictions because we know that affliction produces endurance, endurance produces proven character, and proven character produces hope. This hope will not disappoint us because God's love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
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If God uses persecution to refine our faith in Christ?. If God uses persecution to purify our faith in Christ. If God uses persecution to mature our faith in Christ. If God uses persecution to develop the character of Christ within us. If we are to rejoice in our afflictions and trials because God is molding the character of Christ within us.

Then what is wrong in asking God to send persecution that are fairh will be purified, refined, and our character be perfected as unto Christ?

Bear,

Why pray for God to send it to you, when you can go get some anytime you want? And you can get some persecution in America, right now. Just live godly (all those who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution). You can embrace the cross and deprive your flesh (lusts), now if you want to be refined by the Holy Spirit and suffer in the flesh. Anyone who embraces the cross will suffer in the flesh. You don't have to have your eyes poked out to fulfill that scripture.

Persecuted people don't pray for it or wish for it because they can't bring themselves to obey God and so they ask God for a little help in making them obey Him.

It is the Spirit that sanctifies, not physical pain and deprivation. Pain and deprivation usually test our hearts (the results are unpredictable), but do not sanctify our hearts.

Only the Spirit can sanctify our hearts and He does not require persecution as a tool.

2 Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT and belief of the truth:

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through SANCTIFICATION OF THE SPIRIT, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I have never heard people praying for sickness, pain, poverty, loneliness, hatred against them, etc, etc.

I see totally what TMK is saying. Makes perfect common sense.

However/also, on the other thread of the Chinese underground churches praying for persecution (who also have in the past asked us in the West NOT to pray the persecution is taken away but that they are faithful in it & God is glorified & grows the church to thrive through it) for America, I also have NO problem & understand such a potential "prophetic burden" in prayer. When you see DECADES of talk about revival in the West but the same old same old, praying for the Lord to use "whatever it takes" so that the lost are awakened to reality from their spiritual drunken stupor (judgement, calamities, whatever) & also whatever it takes to awaken the church en made to WAKE UP (I can hear Ian Paisley crying out "wake up you sleepy Christians" in my head 😊) be it persecution, trials, etc. then I don't see that as inherently "wrong" or "morbid" either. Question is, we're such prayers birthed in the spirit of prophecy from the thron room & actually the heart of the Father, or the mind of man. The apostles didn't have to/need to ever pray such a thing. Persecution was everywhere they went. So I think that observation/differentiation should at least be noted before just "quoting specific examples in scripture". Just like how the apostles never specifically spoke up about abortion (it was big in Baal worship LONG BEFORE their day & is now, but not so much during the apostolic era), why they never speak on "Gay Marriage" (such an oxymoron never existed until recently), etc.

by jeffmar1130 on 2016/9/2 15:36:24

Question is, we're such prayers birthed in the spirit of prophecy from the thron room & actually the heart of the Father, or the mind of man.

That is easy to find out. Do we see such a thing in the Scriptures? Do we see that character attribute in the prayers of Jesus for the Church before He ascended? Or Paul, or any of the Apostles. Afterall, they were experiencing persecution as you say on a constant basis. If it was such a great thing, I wonder why Paul and Peter were not telling everyone to git themselves some. Man, this is good stuff!

dohzman, I gave that same scripture in the other thread but it was glossed over. Thank you for posting it again. That is the will of God. His Word is His will.

Yes, and we even know the "sword" is a metaphor for truth, which divides (cuts asunder) people. In other words, divine truth revealed, causes people to make a decision where they stand. With Jesus or not with Him (which is really against him).

But yeah, Jesus said when persecution comes, flee. So, He is not in agreement with us praying for persecution to come upon our brethren. What we should want people to know is how powerful the Spirit is in changing us if we yield to Him.

I guess everyone has given up on the Spirit changing people in America so now they are saying, "just bring some good old persecution on them."

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Matthew 10:23 New International Version (NIV)

23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

This is a good scripture as it says "when" persecution should be expected if we are doing the right thing. Not from everyone but some will react in this way. Our Lord gives us a clear teaching on loving our enemies in response. also:

Matthew 5:11-12 New International Version (NIV)

11 "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

It is one of the foundational teachings of our Lord that it "will" come and we should except it and how to react when it comes.

Again if we are not being persecuted at all, we have to question if we are living in full obedience to our Lord and the Gospel.

In the book of Hebrews we read:

Hebrews 11:35New International Version (NIV)

35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection.

There were believers who could have got off "easy" but they choose to stand for the Gospel and where persecuted and become martyrs for the Gospel. We can choose to not be persecuted as much by our actions and lack of verbally sharing the Gospel with those who do not want to hear it.

In China the great revival will stop tomorrow if they stop verbally sharing the gospel. What will also stop is persecution and imprisonment for the same thing!

Yeah, it's not always about soldiers taking your homes and locking you up.

How many who have come to Christ have had to choose between Him and their family members? Probably all of us. And then your earthly family turns on you in many and various ways. How many are persecuted at work because you stand for Jesus? And how many are persecuted by other "church" friends because you won't engage in the same things that they think it is ok to engage in? Now, this present government is persecuting Christians albeit in subtle ways right now.

Great posts Greg & TMK!

One other thing I have thought of:

Often we take that verse "if they persecute you in one place, flee to another" as an all encompassing command for all people to all times and all places. I'm not sure it's an absolutized scriptural command to everyone everywhere forever. It may have a generally applicable principle, but isn't "absolute" to all men throughout all ages in all places. It was given to the disciples for an immediate contextual application on a specific application for them. And there have been MANY missionaries & great men & women of God called NOT TO FLEE at times, but stay and be a witness in tough places under persecution. My good friend David Servant (whom is on the site and js preached at SI Conferences) has many ministries. One of them is to North Koreans who escape to China. One such young girl was found by a brother in China & taken in. Though hard to the Gospel at first, she softened & eventually came to Jesus. She began reading scripture & studying God's Word day and night. And what did this beautiful young Korean conclude the spirit of God was leading her to do? Yep, sneak back into N Korea to be a faithful witness to all of her lost friends/family, etc.!! Similar testimonies are known in Syria & other such places to this day. So just because Jesus said it in scripture to His 12 disciples in this one instance, I don't think it's a blanket statement for all people in all times/places forever necessarily. We must be led by the spirit.

Similarly, the "if they don't receive you, shake the dust off your feet & move on to another city" instruction Jesus specifically gave his disciples one time in scripture also isn't necessarily a "proof text" of absolute doctrine for everyone in all times. If you've done much evangelism in the USA in the last 2 decades, you've probably wondered about this at some point 😊.

Just an observation when thinking about these passages.

God uses persecution to refine our faith in Christ?. If God uses persecution to purify our faith in Christ. If God uses persecution to mature our faith in Christ. If God uses persecution to develop the character of Christ within us. If we are to rejoice in our afflictions and trials because God is molding the character of Christ within us.

Then what is wrong in asking God to send persecution that are fairh will be purified, refined, and our character be perfected as unto Christ?

Very good questions, and I can understand your reasoning, Bear.

I know all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purposes. I also know that God uses sickness in people's lives but I don't pray for people to get sick. I know some people who have a very deep walk with God because their spouse left them but I don't pray for more divorces.

I think Christians have a tendency to get their eyes on the tool that God uses in some lives and then think this same exact tool should be good for everyone. The problem is that it is God's decision what tool to use in someone's life, not ours. We also have a tendency to glorify the tool and we forget that it is the work of the Spirit in a person's life that is bringing change.

Hopefully, we can understand that it is the love and grace of God working in someone's life, which are good things to pray for rather than to pray for more sickness, or divorces or persecution.

I don't ever believe I have heard of Joni Erickson Tada praying that more people get paralyzed just because God used it mightily in her life. I don't think she glorifies paralysis, but rather she glorifies the Lord.

Simply my thoughts, bro.

3 John 1:2
Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Yes TMK,
I don't disagree. Of course she wasn't seeking persecution by going back in, but we all know severe persecution is likely what she will get in N Korea at some point. So it's not apples to oranges with what the Chinese underground church were praying, but we all know they have real persecution there and we don't here. Let's not compare our "persecution" (family, friends, work, Guy cussing you out on the street, etc.) as an equivalent with N Korean, or apostolic era Jewish, or Islamic, etc. persecution. I believe the Chinese church was essentially praying "lord, do whatever it takes to grow them, even persecution if that's what it takes."

We are not to compare ourselves with one another. Everyone has challenges in their own situation. We are called to encourage and pray for one another not wish harm on each other.

I don't wish the "pleasures" that the West has on any Christian. Some of you know what I mean. For some reason, people think it is easy being a Christian in the "land of plenty".

We all have the same Enemy who is just as able to deceive and trap and wear you out no matter what country you live in.

It doesn't matter what is happening externally to us, it all comes down to what is happening in our heart. People can backslide in any country and as well they can overcome in any country.

Brother Blaine, beloved,

allow me to bring up that precious Portion you quoted from James.

James 1:2-4

"Consider it a great joy, my brothers, whenever you experience various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. But endurance must do its complete work, so that you may be mature and complete, lacking nothing."

let me zero in: "whenever you experience various trials..."

allow me to testify, I AM experiencing "various trials", in this jar of clay, at this moment...and as the LORD leads, and loves, it is because my Flame of Faith has grown ....limp?...dying to an ember, and like an earthly father who disciplines, that is the Work being done on me.

Why?

May I testify further? in days past the LORD gave me a Call....or Callings, and in my unprofitability, with the gifts He has given, the Flame has gone into an ember, thru slothfulness, or just that we are mere vapors, flesh...there is no excuse on my part, but Glory to God, there is Holy Ghost conviction!!!

when its happening....NOW...doesn't "feel" good, but Godly discipline isn't supposed to "feel good"...or as God graced me this very morning, whilst eating of the Second Letter to the Corinthians...here it is:

"For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death." 2 Corinthians 7:10 (ESV)

Oh, what succor that Word is!!...and the LORD is doing a purging work on me, the refiners fire....its doesn't seem appropriate, nor wise, on a public forum to go into detail, unpacking this season in my life in Messiah Jesus.

in loving respect I say; you don't have to "pray" for persecution, it will come, and it is already here, and we might just find, the REAL persecution will come from the religionist's , not from outsiders....I have 1700 years of "church" history to buttress that forthtelling.....but that's all I want to write on THAT.

instead, let me conclude with one of my favorite SIMPLE prayers the 12 said to Messiah....."increase our Faith!"

amen.

Neil,
I will pray for you during this time my friend. May you cling to the horns of the altar, embrace the cross & willingly submit to the the refiners fire, & not lose faith, but grow in faith, Grace, mercy, love, zeal, fervor & humility.

Julius,
I'm not talking about "comparing ourselves to one another" in some unhealthy or ungodly way. When Jesus spoke in context of the Pharisees who "when they compare themselves by themselves, they are not wise", He was speaking of self-righteous comparison. Totally different. What I am talking about is plain common sense: me being persecuted by my family treating me as "a crazy" because of my faith, or my boss scolding me for boldly witnessing to someone, etc. is "different" than my Muslim father trying to kill me for Allah's honor or getting arrested and being thrown in prison for preaching by the secret police. It's just common sense. It's just like how it may be a "trial" for someone if they stump their toe & crack their big toenail, but to not be willing through common sense to say that is a "different level" of trial from going through radiation & chemotherapy treatment for stage 5 aggressive pancreatic cancer. Pure common sense. And even in the scriptures in Hebrews 12 it makes a comparative distinction between trials/persecution that has not been to the point of bloodshed with that that has when it says:
3Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood."

Obviously Jesus had shed blood for them & other saints then & throughout would shed their blood for Jesus, & the author of Hebrews is making a comparative distinction (just common sense really).

And in Revelation 20, the Lord singles out (a form of comparative distinction) those who specifically were beheaded for their testimony (which is a whole prophetic marker to futurism in itself in addition to all the other indicators in the surrounding passages that beheading would be the primary, if not exclusive, form of death these he saw would have suffered - and people were primarily crucified, burnt alive, etc. down through the ages, not "beheaded" specifically aside from predominately the Islamic eras both past & the presently reviving Islamic caliphate - but I digress):

"Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

So yes, we aren't to "compare" our righteousness or deeds with others, but to not be able to use common sense & say persecution in China, The USSR, Nazi Germany, under Nero/Dimentian/Titus/Antiochus/etc., in the Middle East, under ISIS, etc. is DIFFERENT (& much more costly) than here in the West is naive. As much so as saying stumping your toe is painful too, so "don't compare it" to having an infected appendage amputated and permanently removed. I am beginning the preparing of a message for the International Day of Prayer for the Persecuted Church November 6th, so thanks for helping cause me to think these things through Biblically and answer such questions & objections Biblically.
God Bless,
Jeff

by jeffmar1130 on 2016/9/3 11:05:15

I'm not talking about "comparing ourselves to one another" in some unhealthy or ungodly way. When Jesus spoke in context of the Pharisees who "when they compare themselves by themselves, they are not wise", He was speaking of self-righteous comparison.

2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some THAT COMMEND THEMSELVES: but they MEASURING THEMSELVES BY THEMSELVES, and COMPARING THEMSELVES AMONG THEMSELVES, are not wise.

2Co 10:13 But we will not BOAST OF THINGS without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.
2Co 10:14 For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:
2Co 10:15 NOT BOASTING OF THINGS WITHOUT OUR MEASURE, THAT IS, OF OTHER MEN'S LABOURS; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

by StirItUp on 2016/9/3 2:25:36

Amen.

All who desire to live godly lives WILL suffer persecution!
No two ways about it. You won't have to pray for it, it will surely come.
From family, social media, government laws contrary to God, religious people, sinners who hate having their sins exposed etc.

Our prayer for one another should be in accordance with the apostles and with Christ: for unity in the body, for enlightened hearts and minds,for the work of the Spirit in and through us, revival etc. and of course for whatever specific needs we may have.

Blessings,

Amen, William.

I am reading through Paul's prayers again. They really give me a lot of insight into the character of God and I am recognizing areas where I need to make some adjustments.

1.) FOR GODLY LIVING:

-- 1Ti 2:1-2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

-- 2Co 13:7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

-- 2Co 13:9 For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

-- Php 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

-- Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

-- 1Th 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

-- 1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

-- 2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2.) FOR MINISTRY OPPORTUNITY AND SUCCESS:

-- Rom. 1:9-11 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

-- Rom. 15:30-31 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me; That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;

-- Col. 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me; That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;

-- 1Th 3:10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?

-- 2 Thes. 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

-- 2 Thes. 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
-- Phile.1:6 That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

3.) FOR STRENGTHENING:

-- Eph. 3:16-17 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

-- Col. 1:10-11 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

-- 1 Thes. 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

-- 2 Thes. 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

4.) FOR INCREASED KNOWLEDGE...

A. OF THE LORD
-- Eph. 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

-- Col. 1:9-10 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

B. Of HIS WILL:
-- Phil. 1:9-10 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

-- Col. 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

C. OF HIS LOVE:
-- Eph. 3:17-19 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

D. OF THE HOPE OF HIS CALLING:
-- Eph. 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
-- Phile.1:6 That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

F. OF HIS POWER:
-- Eph. 1:18-19 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

5.) FOR MORE LOVE:

-- Phil. 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
-- 1 Thes. 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
-- 2 Thes. 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

6.) FOR GRACE AND PEACE:

-- 1 Cor. 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
(Also similarly: 2 Cor. 1:2, 2 Cor. 13:14, Gal. 1:3, Gal 6:18, Eph. 1:2, Eph. 6:23-24, Phil. 1:2, Phil 4:23, Col. 1:26, 1 Thes. 1:1b, 1 Thes. 5:28, 2 Thes. 1:2, 1 Tim. 1:2, 1 Tim 6:21b, 2 Tim 1:2, Tit. 1:4, Phile. 1:3)

-- 2 Thes. 3:16 Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all.

7.) FOR CHRISTIANS TO BE IN ONE ACCORD:

-- Rom. 15:5-6 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

8.) FOR ISRAEL'S SALVATION:

-- Rom. 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

9.) FOR CHRIST TO DWELL IN OUR HEARTS THROUGH FAITH:

-- Eph. 3:14-17 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

10.) FOR MORE HOPE:

-- Rom. 15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

11.) FOR THE FULLNESS OF GOD:

-- Eph. 3:17-19 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

Julius,
Aside from the 1 Corinthians passage and what I already stated context seems to indicate clearly, I just wanted to say I really enjoyed your other post on Paul's prayers in the NT. Good stuff indeed!
God Bless,
Jeff

Julius,
And to see your point #8 and that because of Paul's words in scripture (you cited Romans 10:1 specifically) you'll be taking more seriously praying for Israel's salvation was awesome. Truly. Not one ounce of guile in my statement either. That caused my heart to dance & rejoice, truly.
In Jesus,
Jeff

Oh, I LOVE that verse. Charles H. Spurgeon preached an AMAZING sermon on Matthew 12:20...You should check it out...

Amen.

YOU WROTE:

All who desire to live godly lives WILL suffer persecution!
No two ways about it. You won't have to pray for it, it will surely come.
From family, social media, government laws contrary to God, religious people, sinners who hate having their sins exposed etc.

Our prayer for one another should be in accordance with the apostles and with Christ: for unity in the body, for enlightened hearts and minds,for the work of the Spirit in and through us, revival etc. and of course for whatever specific needs we may have.

Blessings,

MY RESPONSE:

Amen

Sooo are we better off asking for God to refine purify our faith? Will He do this apart from persecution?

Only the godly have saving faith, therefore all who live godly will suffer persecution...and for sure, their faith will be tested. Persecution is an inevitability to the godly and thus so is the testing of their faith.

Here is my prayer for you, Bear.

2Th 1:11-12 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I am not going to tell God how to do that in you. How He works it out in your life is His business, but I pray that whatever you go through in this life God will strengthen, and establish you in Him so that you are never moved from the hope of your calling in Christ Jesus.

So agree. Thx for the prayer J. Hard to argue with the Apostle Paul. Probably time to bed this thread down.

And what a temptation it is to "walk in the broad" way, just for the sake of being left be...

There are so many different types of hardships and trials one can find themselves in that test their faith to the core. No one is immune.

I always appreciate testimonies of how God used sickness, or loss, or peril, or persecution to refine them. He is the Master Builder and knows what we all need. It would be very presumptuous of me to decided what another man needs to have happen in his life since I know absolutely nothing about his heart.

I could order (pray for) a round of persecution for this people group and a round of sickness for that one, and maybe great loss from a hurricane and flood for this other group of people, but do I really know what I am doing?