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Sanhedrin Appoints High Priest in Preparation for Third Temple

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sermonindex

Saints,

Please do not let this turn into an argument, it is just well worth noting that this is occurring;


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A significant step was recently taken towards reinstating the Temple service when the nascent Sanhedrin selected Rabbi Baruch Kahane as the next Kohen Gadol (high priest). The selection was made as a precaution for Yom Kippur. If the political conditions should change, allowing the Jews access to the Temple Mount, they will be required by Torah law to bring the sacrifices. Rabbi Kahane is confident that if that should happen, Temple service could begin in less than one week.

Rabbi Kahane is a prominent scholar, knowledgeable in the complicated laws pertaining to the subject of the Temple Service. He is part of the Halacha Berurah Institute, established by Rabbi Avraham Isaac HaCohen Kook, the first Chief Rabbi of Israel, which deals with the elucidation of Jewish law from its Talmudic sources (Oral Law) and commentaries. He has played a prominent role in all the reenactments of the Temple services performed to date.

This year has already seen much Temple-oriented activity: the Temple Institute has created a registry of kohanim; established a school for educating men of the priestly class in the details of the Temple service; and performed reenactments on all the holidays, including the especially significant Passover sacrifice.

read more: http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/74772/sanhedrin-appoints-high-priest-preparation-third-temple/#EQ4O6VWKCqq3WkXd.97

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sermonindex

Thank you, I will pray for Rabbi Kahane to have a revelation of Jesus Christ, the true sacrifice and the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world.

T
TMK

The very sad thing about this is that there are many Christians who are cheering this on.

S
sermonindex

Yes, Todd this is something we can talk about and it is very relevant. Not only are many Christians cheering it on but supporting it... for the life of me I don't understand that.

God is not cheering it on so who are they taking their instructions from?

The truth is that God will not turn his back on His Son to recognize or accept OT sacrifices.

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docs

It is into this type of temple and activities that it is believed the AC will perform His abomination and exalt himself above God. Paul was not referring to the temple of the church. The temple of the church and this type of temple are two separate things altogether.

That's all. I just thought I would mention it quickly.

Peace.

T
TMK

Thx David- that helps to explain its potential significance.

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proudpapa

A Muslim Looking Forward to the Third Temple?

The following is a press release from Turkish religious figure Adnan Oktar (pictured, center), who recently hosted a number of Israeli Jewish officials during Ramadan and very interestingly expressed his anticipation for the restoration of the Temple in Jerusalem.

Mr. Adnan Oktar, prominent Muslim opinion leader from Turkey, welcomed a delegation of rabbis and politicians from Israel for the iftar dinner he hosted in Istanbul on June 22, 2016. Rabbi Dov Lipman, a top officer from the World Zionist Organization, was among those attending the dinner, along with many Muslim, Jewish and Christian representatives. Following his visit to Istanbul, Rabbi Lipman noted that he was very pleased with the friendship and goodwill blessings he received in Turkey, and the previous negative image about Turkey in his mind had completely changed.

Mr. Oktar’s guests from Israel also appeared on his live program on the A9 television channel, and applauded Mr. Oktar’s unwavering efforts to end anti-Jewish sentiment in Turkey. The program saw important statements on relations between Israel and Turkey, peace in the region and the world, and in particular on the friendship between Muslims and Jews.

Mr. Adnan Oktar explained that the days when the Prophet Solomon’s Masjid and Palace (Solomon’s Temple) will be rebuilt in an atmosphere of global peace and tranquility are at hand. Rabbi Ben Abrahamson, who is a historian and consultant to the Sanhedrin regarding issues related to Islam, emphasized that the rebuilding of the Temple is a very good development for all mankind.

Mr. Oktar said that Muslims, Jews and Christians share many common values and the current opposition was a ploy of satan. He said people of reason who are full of love should come together and enourage peace and love.

When Mr. Adnan Oktar was asked what should be done to dispel the tension between Muslims and Jews, he urged the Israeli and Turkish governments to be more courageous, and not be influenced by loveless articles published in the media or be concerned with loss of votes.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/29586/Default.aspx

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dolfan

I don't cheer it. I join the prayer that God saves them the only way men are saved, thru Jesus.

I do believe, however, that Israel will be saved in the time of the end and that a greater purposeful seeking God through the invalid, voided means of temple service will open their hearts and minds so that they will mourn and wail and repent when they look on Him whom they have pierced.

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sermonindex

Added 1 all caps statement in the middle for clarification

Amen Tim. If there's any "excitement" at all in me, it's that these things point to the prophetic reality that the events foretold of by the prophets, the apostles & Jesus Himself are drawing closer, even at the door (AND THAT EXCITEMENT IS IN KNOWING WE ARE GETTING CLOSER TO THE RETURN OF JESUS. MUCH CLOSER - FYI). But there's certainly no joy in knowing Jews & the ecumenically deceived will do these abominable things. And there's a knowing in these things prophetically by the scriptures that there's a time of great distress & deception "just ahead" as these things begin to come to pass. But there's sorrow for those who will put their hope in anyone or anything but Jesus. He is coming to show Himself strong in salvation & judgement at the end of all these things. Again, the most loving thing true believers can do for Israel is pray for them & share the Gospel with them

There are various strains of Islam & various schools of thought & various forms of "Jihad" they each conduct; military, cultural, political, etc. but they all have the same end goal in mind when the time is right, trust me. Oktar is an interesting individual to say the least. My friend Joel Richardson was taken to Oktar's palace basically & interviewed live on Turkish TV after he wrote The Islamic Antichrist. You can find it online. JOEL PREACHED THE GOSPEL TO OKTAR AT HIS PLACE UNDER ISLAMIC GUARD IN TURKEY DURING THE INTERVIEW.

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docs

I don't want to broad brush any one or any group with a label or whatever that may not be fit or be true in all cases. So I'm open to correction here because in the end we are all in this thing together. It's been my experience looking into these issues that those who rejoice when signs of a third temple being built may do so because they see this as a sign that a pre-trib rapture is near. This is seen for the most part in dispensationalism and its pre-trib view that holds to the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture. Near or at the time when a temple is rebuilt etc. is seen as a time when a rapture will have or is soon to take place and the church will have been removed to heaven. So if the temple is being rebuilt then rejoice because we are soon to be removed. This view causes many believers to wonder why parts of the body of Christ can rejoice even at the mention of a third temple being built by people who remain enstranged from Christ and His sacrifice.

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sermonindex

Docs,

It gets worse than that. Not just rejoicing but participation.

Many Christians share the belief that the Islamic shrines must be destroyed and that a Jewish Temple must and will be rebuilt - very soon.

However strange it may seem, influential Christian leaders are actively promoting and funding Jewish religious groups who want to destroy the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, the third most holy shrine within Islam. They want to replace it with a fully functioning Jewish Temple. They are doing so because they believe the Bible mandates it. Some Christians like pastor Clyde Lott, a Pentecostal rancher from Mississippi, are even trying to breed the perfect red heifer to assist in future Temple sacrifices. According to the Book of Numbers chapter 19, the ashes of a red heifer are needed to purify the priests and altar before sacrifices can be offered again.

The search for the red heifer has been described as a ‘four legged time bomb’. Other’s like John Hagee and Christians United for Israel are so upset by the presence of the Islamic Dome of the Rock dominating the view of Jerusalem, they have simply airbrushed it out of the picture. They used to have this on their logo and I'm trying to find a pic for you. Its made up of a photograph of the Wailing Wall. There’s a garden on top but no Dome of the Rock. No Al Aqsa. They have vanished.

This is a fantasy world in which there are no Palestinians... Currently, there are 4 million Palestinians in Israel! Even more frightening is the possibility that those who live with this illusion will take steps to make the fantasy come true ”“ to destroy the two mosques which are absent in the CUHI photo.

What makes their plans even more bizarre is that they believe the Temple must be rebuilt just so that it can be desecrated one more time by the Antichrist before Jesus returns. They believe Daniel and Matthew predict the Temple will be desecrated before Jesus returns to rescue Israel and defeat her enemies in the ‘Battle for Jerusalem’.

This is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy of John Hagee and those aligned with him to bring all of this about knowing it will lead to war. There are millions of Christians who are aligned with Hagee. This is not something that we can just brush under the carpet.

Now, just take a step back and remind yourself once again what it means to be a follower of Christ and then take in completely what I just said. If that is not enough for you, John Hagee believes that if you don't stand with him and CUFI, you are anti-semitic. Think about that! If you do not agree that the Christian church should be instrumental in helping Israel rebuild the Temple and restart Temple sacrifices, which means getting rid of the Muslim mosques, you are anti-semitic.

What business does a Christian have in supporting financially to rebuild a temple where sacrifices will be re-instituted, let alone start a war?

These days are full of deception. Be very careful my brothers and sisters.

S
sermonindex

Docs,
FYI - Well just for clarity, that definitely is not me. Not a dispensationalist. Not a pre-tribber. Not rejoicing people attempt to worship God in a manner in which does not please Him and is not according to what He has already revealed in Jesus Christ. Just saying that IF there is any "excitement" or anticipation, or spirit of expectation in me, it is in the fact that I know our redemption drawers nigh, even at the door. And that's not a secret pre-trib rapture I'm referring to, but the visible 2nd coming of Jesus to the earth. The Day of the Lord. Hope I am being clear on that.
God Bless,
Jeff

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sermonindex

Yeah,
To be clear & frank, John Haggee & crew have some very strange doctrines. The "Dual Covenant Theology" (that Jews can still also go to heaven by following the Law apart from Christ to this day) is outright heresy. I'm not trying to be hard, but that's what it is by definition plain and simple. When I say I am for the salvation of Israel as defined by Romans 10-11, people often make a wrong assumption/association with the Haggee crowd. In the same way that when I say I am a Historic/Classic Premillinealist & people often keep lumping me in by terms, definitions or discussion with the Dispensationalists. It's inaccurate. Trust me, men like me, Art Katz & countless theologians & preachers down through the ages (Spurgeon, Bonar, Ryle, Baron, Bunyan, Saphir, etc.) are not & would not be cheering on lost Jews in their redirecting the type for worship outside of the fulfillment of those types (Christ). But it's like when I see earthquakes in diverse places, wars and rumors of wars all over the planet, etc. I am not a self-masochist who rejoices that these things are (or will be) happening in and of themselves, but that we can consider that we can begin to look up, for our redemption draweth nigh. And I don't wish the Palestinians Arabs to all be wiped out in the wars of men. God forbid. My heart is the salvation of the sons of Ishmael. And I know, because I know the words of the prophets, that many of the Jews who do not accept Christ will die in the time of Jacob's trouble under the AC before Christ returns and when then after all Israel is saved, & I know that many of the enemies of Israel (& the Lord) in that day when He returns to execute vengeance on the enemies of Zion (& the Lord) will be slaughtered by the Lord Himself. So my cry is to preach the faithful Gospel to Jew & Gentile (Arabs & all Gentiles) faithfully now while it is called today that they may turn & be saved!
God Bless,
Jeff

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docs

Didn't even have you in mind bro.

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sermonindex

I did not have you in mind either, Jeff.

Just trying to raise awareness that there are millions of Christians that believe these things which are horrible when you think about it.

It gets worse but no time to post right now as I'm smoking a brisket for today's gathering.

I'm glad we are all in agreement, thus far.

P
proudpapa

WND EXCLUSIVE
MESSIANIC PREPARATIONS UNDERWAY AS 3RD TEMPLE PLANNED

This week, the nascent Sanhedrin, a group attempting to revive the ancient Jewish legal institution, reportedly selected an individual to serve as high priest if the political situation allowed Jews to access the Temple Mount for Yom Kippur.

The high priest would bring the sacrifices which would be offered in such a situation.

Rabbi Baruch Kahane declined the nomination to serve as "Kohen Gadol,” or high priest. Instead, Kahane has reportedly been nominated to serve in a different clerical role.

However, he also told Breaking Israel News preparations must be made so a Temple service can be performed if the political situation permits it.

"It is clear that we need to be prepared, to prepare the priests, to have everything ready,” he was quoted as saying.

Other preparations are also being made. The Temple Institute in Jerusalem, a group dedicated to physically constructing the Third Temple, used crowd funding to raise over $100,000 to create architectural plans for building the Third Temple. The same organization also reconstructed the Altar of the Lord. There are even attempts to breed the special red heifers suitable for ritual use.

Mark Biltz, the author of "God’s Day Timer” and a Christian pastor passionate about connecting believers with the Jewish roots of their religion, was enthusiastic about plans to rebuild the Temple.

"We are definitely living in Messianic times!” he exclaimed to WND. "We have been without a Temple for too long. This is the fulfillment of a prophecy in the book of Hosea.”

He quoted a verse which said in the Last Days the "children of Israel” would return and renew the sacrifices in the Temple.

Biltz said he believes this prophecy will be inaugurated soon. He called on the Israeli government to do what is necessary to make it happen.

"All that is really needed is an altar and the political will of the Israeli government to have a greater fear of heaven than of man,” he argued.

The Bible story is more miraculous and astounding than you could have imagined. See the incredible proof of the unchanging nature of God ”“ and the exciting clues to what awaits at the end of days in "God’s Day Timer” by Mark Biltz, available as a book or documentary now in the WND Superstore.

Jonathan Cahn, subject of the smash documentary film "The Harbinger Man,” and author of the new book, "The Book of Mysteries,” says he finds the news "fascinating.”

"We know that according to biblical end-time prophecy, the Temple of Jerusalem must be rebuilt,” the messianic rabbi told WND. "The Temple requires a priesthood. A priesthood requires a high priest. Though the Sanhedrin and priesthood right now lacks official legal authority and the rebuilding of the Temple will require a very dramatic turn of events, the very fact that in 2016, there is talk and movement toward the appointing of a high priest over the future Temple is quite striking.”

Cahn also said it is remarkable that it is only now, through modern technology, can the Jewish people fulfill the laws and rebuild the ancient Temple priesthood according to the law.

NEW: Jonathan Cahn’s "Book of Mysteries” takes readers on a journey of divine revelation through ancient Scriptures, the laws of Creation, the deep of God’s Word, the hidden streams of history, the most important keys of spiritual truth, end-time mysteries and the secrets of life.

"Another piece of the puzzle involves modern DNA technology,” he explained. "Only the blood descendants of Aaron, the brother of Moses, can serve as priests in the Temple. It is only in the last few years, with the development of DNA analysis, that the descendants of Aaron can be identified. In an amazing development, scientists were able to identify ‘the priestly gene,’ a genetic code carried by the sons of Aaron that goes back about 3,000 years, just about the same time as lived Aaron, the first high priest of Israel.”

The film that is transforming hearts around the world. Discover "The Harbinger Man” and the works of Jonathan Cahn. Available now at the WND Superstore.

Bill Cloud of Shoreshim Ministries, the author of "Esau Rising,” said it is fascinating "religious Jews in Israel are obviously anticipating the coming of Messiah.”

"Their readiness to reinstitute Temple Service is predicated upon their belief that the Messiah will soon be revealed,” he told WND. "Of course I believe He has already been revealed and will return in the not-to-distant future.”

However, Cloud sounded a note of caution about whether a Temple built in Jerusalem would actually qualify as the Third Temple.

"Revelation 11 strongly implies that another temple will be built in Jerusalem, however, I’m not convinced that this is the messianic Temple,” Cloud said. "I’m not convinced that this particular temple alluded to in Revelation 11 qualifies as ‘the Third Temple.’ I think there is a very good chance that this Temple referred to in Revelation 11 is simply man’s attempt to force the issue. As a matter of fact, based on things we read in Revelation 11 and in Daniel chapter 9, this attempt to rebuild might be squashed by the one the Bible calls ‘Antichrist.'”

An ancient prophecy reveals the secret about events in America today. Learn what’s really happening, and what’s really at stake. "Esau Rising: Ancient Adversaries And the War for America’s Soul” by Bill Cloud, available now in the WND Superstore.

Carl Gallups, author of "Be Thou Prepared” and the upcoming "When the Lion Roars: Understanding the Implications of Ancient Prophecies for Our Time,” said Christians should not be distracted by details. Instead, he called on believers to focus on the core truth at the center of the debate. Regardless of who is appointed high priest, the details of construction or even if any of these projects are making progress, Gallups said the fact the discussion is happening at all is hugely important.

"The implications of the continual talk, planning, construction and even conspiracy theories coming out of Israel concerning the possible construction of a Third Temple in Jerusalem are monumental!” he exclaimed. "It is a fact that many orthodox Jews believe this event is necessary for their ‘messianic understanding’ to come to fruition. The very talk of such a thing has huge geopolitical implications as well. Many believe that Islam, Christianity, and Judaism would somehow have to either come together on the project ”“ or go to war over the matter. Others believe that the Antichrist himself will somehow be involved in bringing at least Islam and Judaism and, perhaps, some brand of Christianity to a melding point with the construction of a Temple structure in the ‘Holy Place’ of Jerusalem ”“ and the Temple Mount.

"All of the debates, discussions, plans and headlines are indicative of the profoundly prophetic times in which we are now living. If the ‘Temple Talk’ invokes increasing global discussions and awakening to the biblically prophetic nature of our times, I welcome it!”

Gallups said ultimately, what is to happen is foreordained ”“ and he urged Christians to become rededicated to their faith. As he lays out in "When the Lion Roars,” the Florida pastor argues the end times are coming soon and the proof can be found in the unique events this generation has witnessed.

...........
"In the end of it all ”“ it’s all about the return of Jesus Christ,” he said. "He came the first time, according to the prophecies, and those same prophecies declare He is coming again. Not only that, the prophecies are clear that He would return in the days shortly after Israel returned to the land, Jerusalem was in control of that returned Israel, and the Ezekiel 38 nations began their alignment against Israel. Those days are here, and we are the first historical generation to see it happen ”“ Temple or no Temple.”


Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2016/09/messianic-preparations-underway-as-3rd-temple-planned/#0ilFudG8q6IId1FU.99

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docs

I agree with you regarding Hagee etc. Yet there are millions and millions of Christians who do not hold to his views. This should be remembered also.

Regarding the mosques, when the Jews reclaimed the old city of Jerusalem in 1967 they immediately opened up the Wailing Wall to people of all faiths and took measures to ensure Muslims could come to the Wailing Wall. They are still doing this today. Jordan had previously been in control of the Wailing Wall and had forbidden access to it by Jewish people and had vandalized many Jewish shrines. They had taken Jewish headstones from the Jewish cemeteries and made latrines for their soldiers out of them. These mosques of the Islamic religion were constructed by a religion that denies the divinity of Christ and openly states in their book that Christ was not really crucifed. It cannot be denied eliminating Jews is a virtue in this religion. No non Mulsim or Jews are allowed to come near these mosques yet the popular notion is that Israel is causing all the problems. Go figure.

/What business does a Christian have in supporting financially to rebuild a temple where sacrifices will be re-instituted, let alone start a war?

These days are full of deception. Be very careful my brothers and sisters./

Islam has declared perpetual war against Israel and is dedicated to not only the elimination of Israel but of the Jewish people. Read the Hamas charter if you would. Why do we pay attention to rats int the cellar when there are elephants in the attic?

A equally DANGEROUS DECEPTION in my mind would be that modern Israel is nothing more than a secular nation with no prohetic destiny ahead for them. Christ came to Israel and ascended from it and promised to return to it yet now we have a major branch of eschatological theology advocating that Israel is non-persona in the redemptive plan and totally irrelevant to any future events. This view is manmy times accompanied by a mocking disdain for modern Israel. It's not worship of Israel but a diligent prophetic investigation that leads one to conclude Israel will be in the epi-center of events at the end of the age.

Chrst is destined to return to the nation He ascended from. To say this still renders this nation as irrelevant can be nothing but a deception!

Be careful my brothers and sister. Yes, indeed!

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proudpapa

RE: /// A equally DANGEROUS DECEPTION in my mind would be that modern Israel is nothing more than a secular nation with no prohetic destiny ahead for them. Christ came to Israel and ascended from it and promised to return to it yet now we have a major branch of eschatological theology advocating that Israel is non-persona in the redemptive plan and totally irrelevant to any future events. This view is manmy times accompanied by a mocking disdain for modern Israel. It's not worship of Israel but a diligent prophetic investigation that leads one to conclude Israel will be smack dab in the middle of events at the end of the age.///

Hi Docs,
Could you please provide some historical writings from the first 1500 years of church history preferably from ante nicene, that agrees with your interputation of Scripture. (((concerning Israel having a prohetic destiny ahead for them.)))
something more than an ambiguous quote from little heard of Ishodad of Merv of 850

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My concern is that Israel is fixing to declare someone as their messiah , and what will christians do if they do.


edit add : for clarity of question (((concerning Israel having a prohetic destiny ahead for them.)))

S
sermonindex

And that's fine, docs. I don't know anyone here that mocks the nation state of Israel. You are equating the belief that today's nation state of Israel plays no role in endtime events as mocking and that is not right. They have every right to defend themselves. Christians do not have to believe in the complete literalism of C.I. Scofield and J.N. Darby. Their views are quite recent, you know.

On the other hand, there is clear mocking of the scriptures going on by many Christians reinterpreting them to mean something else. Take God’s Promises to Abraham for instance.

In Genesis 12, 15 and 17 God promises the Holy Land to Abraham and his descendents. To Christian Zionists (Hagee and his followers) this promise of land inheritance was permanent and unconditional. And it is as true in Biblical times as it is today. This means that for Christian Zionists, the covenant of Abraham continues to be in play today . And as Christians this forces them to have what we call a "two covenant” theology: one covenant for the Jews and one for Christians operates in the church. In a word, the work of Christ does not replace or supplant the Jewish covenant.

But something decisive happened in Christ. His covenant affected not simply the covenant of Moses ”“ making a new and timeless form of salvation ”“ but it also affected every Jewish covenant, including Abraham’s covenant. Christ fulfills the expectations of Jewish covenant life and renews the people of God rooted in the OT and Judaism. Thus Jesus is a new temple, the new Israel, there are 12 tribes/apostles, etc., etc.

When it comes to the land promises to Abraham ”“ a crux for dispensationalists ”“ We should look at Galatians 3:16. The Apostle Paul wrote: "Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say ‘And to his offsprings,’ referring to many; but referring to one, ‘And to his offspring,’ which is Christ.” Paul argues from the singular noun in Genesis to show that the promises to Abraham ”“ and this means land ”“ point to Christ! Paul, who wrote Roman 9-11, is arguing this, not me.

Christ is the focus of the promise of land! The promises to Abraham have been realized in Christ ”“ he holds everything Judaism desired ”“ and knowing him gains access to such promises. In John 15 Christ does the same. This is the great vine and branches sermon Jesus told in the upper room. The Old Testament image of Israel is that of a vineyard filled with many vines rooted in the soil of the Holy Land. You can see this outlined beautifully in Isaiah 5. But Jesus upends this. We see a vineyard again but now we learn that there is one vine ”“ Christ ”“ and the only question turns not on gaining access to the land but being attached to Him, gaining access to Christ.

To think in a Christian way about "land and promise" is to think differently than Judaism. In short, the NT changes the spiritual geography of God’s people. The Kingdom of God is tied neither to an ethnicity nor to a place. And because the early Christians understood this, they carried their missionary efforts to the entire world. At a time when Jews were debating the meaning of Holy Land, Jesus’ prescription was quite remarkable: "the meek will inherit the land” (Mt 5:5). Not the aggressor or the conqueror.

That is why many Christians are not at all convinced that the promises to Abraham much less Moses are still theologically significant today. The work of Christ is definitive. There is one covenant. And it is with Christ. That is why we cringe when we hear John Hagee cite the Old Testament again and again. I am eager to hear him open his New Testament for us and think Christianly.

Does the support of Israel by John Hagee and CUFI, undermine the efforts to support peace in Israel? They openly support the removal of the Mosque of Omar and Al-Aqsa mosque. That is certainly not going to win any friends or promote peace.


A meeting took place in Washington on July 17, 2007, It was called "A Night to Honor Israel” and was hosted by Christians United for Israel [CUFI]. The aim of the evening was purely political. It’s organizers want to influence American foreign policy to support any Israeli security or land issue. What constantly amazes me is that the audience was entirely religious. Organized by Rev. John Hagee, CUFI works to rouse the evangelical Christians of America ”“ by their count, 50 million. And with this platform, they hope to show that Christians have a spiritual obligation to stand with Israel fully. That night in his keynote address, Hagee said, "When 50 million evangelical Bible-believing Christians unite with five million American Jews standing together on behalf of Israel, it is a match made in heaven.”

Hagee continued, "Let us shout it from the housetops that a new day has
been born in America. The sleeping giant of Christian Zionism has awakened. If a line has to be drawn, draw the line around Christians and Jews. We are united. We are indivisible. AND TOGETHER WE CAN RESHAPE HISTORY”

Notice, that Hagee labels himself and his organization, "Christian Zionist". That label did not come from me.

Also, note that he said, "TOGETHER WE CAN RESHAPE HISTORY". Very important to keep that in mind.


But this is where Hagee frightens more than he inspires. Not only has his theological commitments given him Biblically defended views on Israel, but now his eschatology has led him to call for America to strike out militarily against Iran. Using the language of the Book of Revelation, Hagee looked to Iran as the incarnation of evil. "The head of the beast of radical Islam in the Middle East is Iran and its fanatical president Ahmadinejad. Ladies and gentlemen, we are reliving history. It is 1938 all over again. Iran is Germany. Ahmadinejad is Hitler. And Ahmadinejad, just like Hitler, is talking about killing the Jews.”

The answer to this problem is written in the Biblical playbook which he will interpret for us. The answer is to launch a war that will end all war since it will bring the end of human history. Listen again, "… we want you to recognize that Iran is a clear and present danger to the United
States of America and Israel. … it's time for our country to consider a military preemptive strike against Iran if they will not yield to diplomacy. And if they continue the pursuit of nuclear weapons we must not allow them to manipulate the economy of the world because they have a
nuclear weapon.”

So there we have it. Rev. John Hagee, a spokesperson for Jesus Christ, calling for an American military strike against Iran based on what the Bible teaches. During his conference he then commissioned his 4500 delegates to go to Capitol Hill as lobbyists. I am not the only one who is alarmed. A host of Jewish leaders, such as Rabbi Laurie Zimmerman and Rabbi Michael Lerner, have spoken out against this "wedding made in heaven.”

Rabbi Zimmerman wrote in response:
Other rabbis, including myself, generally support building bridges with other communities. Yet we recognize that there are some groups with whom we should not align ourselves or support in any way. If creating a sustainable peace in the Middle East is important to us, then we cannot support an organization that advocates attacking Iran and launching the region into further chaos. As Pastor John Hagee, stated, "The United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan
for both Israel and the West... a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation [...]and Second Coming of Christ” (CUFI’s Washington, DC inaugural event, July 19, 2006).

Excerpts from Gary Burge.

No one has really answered proudpapa's question:

Hi Docs,
Could you please provide some historical writings from the first 1500 years of church history preferably from ante nicene, that agrees with your interputation of Scripture. (((concerning Israel having a prohetic destiny ahead for them.))) something more than an ambiguous quote from little heard of Ishodad of Merv of 850

Ok, gotta go. Will chat later in the day.

P
passerby

Ezekiel's temple is thus described, but who is authorized to build that temple.

Zechariah 6:11-13

11 Then take silver and gold and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest,

12 and speak unto him, saying, ‘Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, "Behold the Man whose name is The Branch! And He shall grow up out of His place, and He shall build the temple of the Lord.

13 Even He shall build the temple of the Lord; and He shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon His throne. And He shall be a priest upon His throne; and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.”

If at all the temple pertained to by ezekiel and zechariah is one and the same.


S
sermonindex

Passerby,

Amen! Jesus is the Temple and He is building His Church.

By the way, I just want to make is clear I am not labeling anyone on SI a Christian Zionist. John Hagee labels this of himself and his followers (those who support war in the mideast).

Zechariah 6:12

12 and speak unto him, saying, ‘Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, "Behold the Man whose name is The Branch! And He shall grow up out of His place, and He shall build the temple of the Lord.

So the temple being built is a counterfeit to the true temple.

1Cor 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, YE ARE GOD's BUILDING.

Zec 8:9 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Let your hands be strong, ye that hear in these days these words by the mouth of the prophets, which were in the day that THE FOUNDATION OF THE HOUSE OF THE LORD of hosts was laid, that the temple might be built.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the FOUNDATION of the apostles and prophets, JESUS CHRIST himself being the CHIEF CORNERSTONE;

Jesus referring to HIMSELF as the TEMPLE OF GOD;
Matt 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

D
docs

Where do you think Christ will return to Julius? When He sets feet on the earth again, on solid terra-firma, what geographical location on earth do you think this will involve? Do you have an opinion on this?

S
sermonindex

Yes, my opinion is in the scriptures but I am driving now.

T
TrueWitness

The temple that Ezekiel describes in chapters 40-43 has never been built. I'm wondering if this is the temple the Jews will build again before Christ returns (the one in which the AC will declare himself to be God). If I had to guess, I'd say that the Jews will rebuild the temple after the design of Solomon's temple but again that's just a guess. Does anyone think that the temple described in Ezekiel 40-43 is not a literal building of wood and stone but spiritualize these chapters as describing the temple of Christ (the cornerstone) and the Church (the living stones)?

D
docs

Well be careful driving good bro but that's not even a artful dodge. Ha!

S
sermonindex

Not driving anymore but too busy to write to you what I need to write.

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proudpapa

I am interested in how premillennialist interput this portion of scripture ?

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

edit:clarity

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watchnpray

It's definitely in Scripture (and what a chapter!) and I'm champing at the bit from wanting to answer, but Julius was asked so I'll let him handle it.

On another note, and as I've stated before, I believe there might well be a literal, personal Antichrist (as well as we ourselves constituting "antichrists", as I have previously suggested and as also Brenda posited on another thread), but this AC figure should not distract us from the AC spirit within the body proper of the Church - the only "edifice" that may rightly be adduced as being the "temple of God" (see the Bible references Julius provided on this same thread).

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sermonindex

William,

Meeting went long today. We are just now starting to eat and fellowship. Feel free to share. After eating it will take me an hour to get home.

L
Lysa


As there are a 100 versions of amillenialism and such, I'm sure there are about the same for premillennialism.

But this premillennialist believes this happens at the end of the 1000 year reign and after when satan is released "from his prison to set out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, and to lead them into battle" (Rev 20.7-10).

After this we are taken to what John said, "And then I saw a great white throne, and one seated upon it from whose presence both earth and sky fled and vanished" (Rev 20.11-15) and here is the 2nd resurrection for the judgment where the saved and unsaved, "death and the grave were themselves hurled into the lake of fire, which is the second death. If anyone’s name was NOT FOUND written in the book of life he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Because in Rev 21:1 John says, "Then I saw a new Heaven and a new earth, for the first Heaven and the first earth had disappeared and the sea was no more."

I believe it is that simple but I do know that my interpretation may be wrong! If you want to know more, someone else may have to help you b/c I have to be careful as not to argue with you.

God bless you,
Lisa

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proudpapa

Hi Lisa,

I am assuming that your reply was to my question, If I am wrong I apologize.


RE: ///But this premillennialist believes this happens at the end of the 1000 year reign and after when satan is released "from his prison to set out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, and to lead them into battle" (Rev 20.7-10).///

If this is a response to my question than I am understanding that your position is that : the day of the Lord of 2 Pet 3 happens at the end of the Millennial reign.

Just so that I can understand your position better :

Do you believe that the "the day of the Lord (that) will come as a theif in the night" of 2 Pet 3 is speaking of the same event or a different event than that of 1 Thes 5 that says :

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

RE: /// b/c I have to be careful as not to argue with you.///

I believe that this topic can be discussed without arguement as long as both sides keep the humility that you have demonstrated in your post. thank you for your reply

edit : clarity

T
TMK

True Witness wrote:

"The temple that Ezekiel describes in chapters 40-43 has never been built. I'm wondering if this is the temple the Jews will build again before Christ returns (the one in which the AC will declare himself to be God). If I had to guess, I'd say that the Jews will rebuild the temple after the design of Solomon's temple but again that's just a guess. Does anyone think that the temple described in Ezekiel 40-43 is not a literal building of wood and stone but spiritualize these chapters as describing the temple of Christ (the cornerstone) and the Church (the living stones)?"

I do not believe it is a literal building; especially the idea that Jesus himself will be presiding over a reinstituted temple sacrifice system and is pleased with it as some Christians believe. The whole idea is abomination.

L
Lysa

by proudpapa
Hi Lisa,

I am assuming that your reply was to my question, If I am wrong I apologize.


You are not wrong, I forgot to address you.

by proudpapa
Do you believe that the "the day of the Lord (that) will come as a theif in the night" of 2 Pet 3 is speaking of the same event or a different event than that of 1 Thes 5 that says :

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


When I quit arguing, I quit studying about this so i will not be as well versed as others but YES, I believe they are the same event (again, I could wrong, we will see one day!).

God bless,
Lisa

PS: I feel like you are leading me like a lamb to the slaughter by here a question there a question! I hope I am wrong.

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watchnpray

Um, Todd... Just for the record, wasn't it TrueWitness who said what you gave me credit for? I know, from a distance, we kind of look alike, but he's a TrueWitness and I'm just little old me. :)

T
TMK

Hey yeah! I'll fix it. Sorry about that.

S
sermonindex

Edit:

Do the scriptures say Jesus will stand on the earth and rule and reign? That is the question. We know He is ruling and reigning on the earth right now in His people. Someone asked me today, "but if He is ruling and reigning on the earth, have you looked at the world, lately? I said, "yes of course, but that is called CHOICE. Not everyone wants to come under His rule and reign. The fact that people don't want to come under His authority does not negate the fact that He is presently ruling and reigning on earth. We all know He will never force people to come under His authority."

I have come under His authority and many on SI have come under His rule and reign. And many around the world have experienced His power over the powers of darkness delivering them from bondage and captivity. He is on earth now, ruling and reigning in His people over the kingdom of darkness. Look, He told us to set the captives free, heal the sick, cast out demons. Yes, the King has come to this world and is dwelling in us and setting the captives free.


So, let's see where in the NT it is stated that Christ is coming back to earth, to stand on it.


Not in 1 Thess 4. We are caught up with Him in the clouds. He never sets foot on earth.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here, He is going to be in the clouds and somehow make everyone on earth able to see Him. If He was standing at one particular place on earth, this could not be done. Still this verse does not say He will step foot on earth.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Here, the angel says that Jesus will come in like manner as He was taken up. In other words He who went up into a cloud will descend in the clouds (which coincides with 1 Thess 4 and Rev 1:7), but nothing about setting foot on earth. After the angel speaks, the narrator/writer, Luke then goes on to say that the men returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet. People think the angel was saying He will return to this place, but the angel was not talking about returning to a place but was emphasizing the "manner" (not place) in which Jesus would come...same as He left (in the clouds).

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Some use Zech 14:4 to portray Jesus standing on the Mount of Olives when He returns, but this verse was fulfilled the first time He came. And there is no corroboration of it in the NT. You would think there would be 5 or 6 scriptures, but there are none, although people use Acts 1:7, which is a very thin thread. All the NT scriptures saying that Jesus will come in the clouds and we will meet Him in the air actually support Acts 1:7 more than Zech 14:4, does.

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

So, what scriptures support Zech 14:4 if Zech 14:4 was fulfilled the first time Jesus came?

Many, many believe that Jesus was crucified on the Mount of Olives, buried and resurrected there. He also ascended into heaven from Mount Olivet.

Here are some very good reads. In my research, I realized more people than I previously thought believe Jesus died, was buried and resurrected all on the Mount of Olives. Though, it seems He was buried right below it in the Garden of Gethsemane. We know from Acts 1:7, He ascended from there and after reading the following papers, I think you may "see" that He was crucified on the Mount of Olives as Jesus fulfilled every type there was to be fulfilled including the sacrifice of the red heifer on the Mount of Olives.

http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/files/Download/holy_hill.pdf
http://www.cortright.org/locatcru.htm
http://www.biblicalhorizons.com/biblical-horizons/no-84-christ-in-the-holy-of-holies-the-meaning-of-the-mount-of-olives/


But if Jesus was coming back to earth to stand on the earth, this is a major doctrine/teaching and we should see several verses from the Apostle regarding this and the problem is that we don't.

We will meet Him in the clouds.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


J
Jeremy221

Thank you for bringing this to my attention dear brother Greg.

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sermonindex

We should get back to Greg's original OP.

The vision of the Temple found in Ezekiel 40-46, this instruction is given: ‘a young bullock for a sin offering’ (Ezekiel 43:19).

For Christians who support the rebuilding of the Temple, this verse must stick in their throat. To change the anatomical analogy, it is actually the ‘Achilles’ heel’ of those who read the Bible in an ultra-literal way. Why? Because the verse requires the reintroduction of animal sacrifices. Cyrus Scofield, in his Reference Bible, fudges the issue claiming these will only be ‘memorial’ offerings. Schuyler English and the editorial committee of the New Scofield Reference Bible dig a hole for themselves when they claim:

"The reference to sacrifices is not to be taken literally, in view of the putting away of such offerings, but is rather to be regarded as a presentation of the worship of redeemed Israel, in her own land and in the millennial Temple, using the terms with which the Jews were familiar in Ezekiel’s day."

Scofield was the great exponent of literalism. If we are to take the Bible literally, then the sacrifice of a ‘young bullock’ cannot be mistaken for a ‘memorial offering’ which consisted of grain and oil. The story of Cain and Abel reminds us of the hazards of offering God the wrong kind of sacrifice! (Genesis 4:4-7). If this particular reference to sacrifice in Ezekiel 43 need not be taken literally, then what is all the fuss about? Why is it necessary to take other Old Testament prophecies ‘literally’ and apply them to Israel today if not this one? Sounds a little inconsistent doesn’t it? They want to have their cake and eat it ”“ or in this case, they want their sacrifices without the blood.

The context for Ezekiel’s vision of a rebuilt Temple is actually the promised return of the Jews from Babylonian exile, not an event that might happen around 2,500 years later! It would have been utterly meaningless for the exiles longing to return to Israel to be told ‘Be encouraged. Although this doesn’t apply to you, it is going to happen in a few thousand years time.’

Excerpts and quotes from Gary Burge

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Jeremy221

Julius, shut up.

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sermonindex

by Jeremy221 on 2016/9/5 0:50:22

Julius, shut up.

Hello Jeremy.

Are you supporting the rebuilding of the Temple? If so, can you share with us why you support it?

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StirItUp

Julius,

I agree with a lot of your posts and am often encouraged by your knowledge of scripture and the time and effort you put into your posts....however :), please explain this part of your post here, or answer my questions:

Quote Julius:" He is on earth now, ruling and reigning in His people over the kingdom of darkness. Look, He told us to set the captives free, heal the sick, cast out demons. Yes, the King has come to this world and is dwelling in us and setting the captives free"

When you say Christ is dwelling in us, do you mean by His Spirit? Do you differentiate between His actual bodily presence in a place called Heaven at the Father's right hand...from where (an actual place) He will come to judge the nations?
The authority He has given us is a delegated authority to appropriate His Name as His Spirit filled representatives to do His work and proclaim His gospel with power?
When you say "the King has come to this world" do you mean once and for all...finally?
As I understand it He came as a man, a suffering servant and a sacrifice for sins and only once the fullness of the gentiles have come in and in the Father's time will He return to reign as King in a physical earthly sense?
That the kingdom of God has come in us who believe and have bowed the knee to the Lord Jesus but that this Lordship is not fully manifest in the world yet, but will be in the future when He returns with thousand of ten thousand of His saints and angels...?

I know there are different interpretations and I need to understand, please

Blessings,

S
sermonindex

Edit:

Thank you. I have been quite blessed by your posts and the spirit of your posts, too. The scriptures tell us that we have the Spirit of God's Son dwelling in our hearts.

The authority we have is the delegated authority by virtue of Christ's life in us to use His name. Pray in His name, heal the sick in His name, cast out demons in His name, etc., etc.

Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mar 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

We have the Spirit of God's Son, Jesus Christ dwelling in us.

Galatians 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the SPIRIT OF HIS SON into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Christians have the Spirit of Christ, the King of Kings, dwelling in them.
Think about what the ramifications of that is. The Lord's Church is not in this world in a defensive position. We are on offense. Actually, He is on offense within His people.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is none of his.

Php 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the SPIRIT OF JESUS CHRIST.

Look what Old Testament saints did:
Hebrews 11:33
Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

And today, we have better promises, better sacrifice, better high priest, better hope, better testament, better covenant, better country (all taken from Hebrews), AND THE MIND AND SPIRIT OF CHRIST.

Ephesians 6:16-18
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

He is reigning in and through His Church until He has put all of His enemies under His foot, them comes the end.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Look also at Heb 1:13 and Heb 10:12-13 for more witnesses to 1Cor 15:25.

1Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, SHALL BE GIVEN TO THE PEOPLE OF THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

AND WHAT HAPPENS TO THE NATION OR KINGDOM THAT WILL NOT SERVE HIM?

Isa 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

I don't believe the scriptures say He is going to rule as a King in the physical, earthly sense. Many tried to make Him King once. Indeed, they thought He came to vanquish earthly enemies. He said, My Kingdom is not of this world. Why would He change His mind? The old testament was the natural, foreshadowing the spiritual, Jesus is not going to revert His spiritual kingdom to the natural. The natural is inferior, corruptible. At least I don't see that. I have had to make a lot of adjustments through the years. One has to stay open and teachable. And we cannot expect each other to receive a teaching unless the Lord confirms it in their heart, first. I have not been convinced by others and their presentation of the scriptures to change my mind, yet. I say yet, because, like I said, I have made a lot of adjustments through the years. No man has all the truth. Only Jesus does.

I like hearing other viewpoints and searching the scriptures to see if these things are so. I hope I answered all your questions.

Those who are alive at His coming will meet Him in the air.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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StirItUp

Thanks Julius,

I will give due consideration to the points made...and come back to you if I see otherwise :)

I am speaking, of course, from my specific church background and learning, and am also learning to be open and teachable and to consider other points of view.

Blessings,

H
Heydave

"Please do not let this turn into an argument, it is just well worth noting that this is occurring;"

Seems that Julius and other just ignored you again Greg!
Propagating his agenda seems be something he cannot resist.

S
savannah

J said,

"When it comes to the land promises to Abraham ”“ a crux for dispensationalism...Christ is the focus of the promise of land!...To think in a Christian way about "land and promise" is to think differently than Judaism."

The above is in accord with what we read here in Hebrews;

Hebrews 11:13 All these people died still believing what God had promised them. They did not receive what was promised, but they saw it all from a distance and welcomed it. They agreed that they were foreigners and nomads here on earth. 14 Obviously people who say such things are looking forward to a country they can call their own. 15 If they had longed for the country they came from, they could have gone back. 16 But they were looking for a better place, a heavenly homeland. That is why God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

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sermonindex

by Heydave on 2016/9/5 6:55:11

"Please do not let this turn into an argument, it is just well worth noting that this is occurring;"

Seems that Julius and other just ignored you again Greg!
Propagating his agenda seems be something he cannot resist.

Hey Dave,

Thanks for dropping in. It has been awhile. I admit it is easy to get off track. We all do it. But, now we are back on track with the OP that Greg started.

These threads (below) are ongoing and I did not start any of them so there is no agenda from me. I just enjoy contributing to the threads. I hope that is ok with you?

The Pretrib Rapture (bearmaster)
70 Weeks of Daniel (savannah)
Sanhedrin Appoints High Priest in Preparation for Third Temple\t(Greg)
The Mark of the Beast by John Rhys Watkins (Lysa)
Is Jerusalem, Babylon the Great. (JeffMars)

Please contribute something edifying. At least if you can't do that, you may want to put a brake on the accusations.

Do you support the rebuilding of the Temple? If so, would you share with us why you do?

P
proudpapa

\t
God gave our forefather Abraham the land of Canaan "for an everlasting possession” (Genesis 17:8). In Hebrew, the word everlasting means never-ending. You might think, "Abraham had to rejoice over this. God promised his descendants a permanent homeland, as far as they could see, and it would last into eternity.” However, the New Testament tells us the world will be destroyed by fire, burnt completely out of existence, after which the Lord will bring about a new heaven and earth.

You may wonder: How could God’s "everlasting possession” to Abraham be a mere piece of real estate? How could it be eternal? The fact is, this land of promise was symbolic of a place beyond the earth. I believe Abraham knew this in his spirit. The Bible says that as Abraham moved about in Canaan, he always felt alien: "By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country” (Hebrews 11:9). Why was this so? It was because Abraham’s heart longed for something beyond the land itself.

"He looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God” (Hebrews 11:10). Abraham could see the true significance of the land blessing and he realized, "This place isn’t the real possession. It’s just an illustrated sermon of the great blessing to come.” Abraham grasped the true meaning of the Promised Land; he knew Canaan represented the coming Messiah. Jesus himself tells us, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad” (John 8:56).

The Holy Spirit enabled this patriarch to see down through the years, to the day of Christ. He knew that the meaning of his Promised Land meant a place of total peace and rest. And, as Abraham knew, this place of rest is Jesus Christ himself. That’s right, the Lord Jesus is our promised possession. We are his, but he is ours as well. And God invites us to obtain our everlasting possession by simple faith

add : http://davidwilkersontoday.blogspot.com/2008/09/true-meaning-of-promised-land.html

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passerby

Abraham was 75 years old when the call was made(Gen:12). He has no heir since his wife was barren(Gen:11).

Abraham had the fear of the Lord, I don't believed that he really cared for any land. He was simply being obedient to the Almighty.

There were accounts from Berossus,Josephus, and Eusebius that Abraham was not an ordinary man before the Genesis 12 call. He was a wealthy and influential personality, a great scientist, an astronomer and a mathematician.

His scientific accounts had big effects in the ancient Assyria, Egypt, and Europe.

J
Jeremy221

Julius, are you familiar with Gary M. Burge?

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sermonindex

Heyday wrote:

Seems that Julius and other just ignored you again Greg!
Propagating his agenda seems be something he cannot resist.

Ain't that the truth


D
docs

"I'm a friend of Israel and always have been. If I have any blessings on my life in the ministry I have been involved in to drug addicts and alcoholics over the years I attribute that to one of the major factors being that I have honored and prayed for Israel. God said He would honor those who honor Israel. We are standing against the anti-semitic spirit sweeping the world and even the church and many evangelical circles. I think it is one of the most abominable things the Satan has ever dropped in the church in the service of the Antichrist."

(David Wilkerson)

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dolfan

If Jesus does not reign on Earth then Christians are fools about what "reign" means or fools about who Jesus is.

His throne is in no sense the throne of David if He does not reign on Earth.

The prayer He taught, "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth" is a vain saying if His kingdom is not a future Earthly kingdom.

If Jesus does not reign physically present on Earth, we believe a lie.

S
sermonindex

Do you not believe that Jesus is having an impact on earth right now as He is ruling and reigning through His Church? His will is being done through His obedient servants. If you don't believe that...

You and I and millions of Christians through the ages are testimonies of His will being done on earth.

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dolfan

I do not believe Jesus died to make an impact.

S
sermonindex

I'm sure that was a poor choice of words, dolfan. Although, He has made a huge impact in my life. In fact, He totally shifted the foundations.

S
sermonindex

Jim/Julious/james/toscu are one and the same. And a religious troll, even a heretic religious troll at that, flame away!

"In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,[3] often for their own amusement."

D
dolfan

Rev, we have no issues, Julius and I. We have always discussed differences and likenesses with respect and love. So, I don't know a lot of the real identities of folks here and it doesn't matter to me who Julius is. If he is this Jim Fowler guy, so be it. If he posts under other pen names here, so be it. I would rather deal with the substance of his views and I think fairly he feels the same way.

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sermonindex

Hey Julius,
Jeremy221 asked you a question you must have missed (because you failed to reply). He asked several posts back if you are familiar with Gary M Burge?
God Bless,
Jeff

S
sermonindex

Sorry for the delay, Jeff. This is a travel day for me.

I answered him in the 70 weeks thread. He asked if I knew him. I answered, no. I just became familiar with him through his article while doing a topic search on Google which brought me here:

http://christianzionism.org/Articles.asp

I am now working my way through all of these articles and getting a stunningly clearer picture why Christian Zionism is dangerous to the world and the Body of Christ.

Currently, I am reading the testimony of this person and his journey out of Christian Zionism, not realizing all that he was supporting in his ignorance of the full import of what Christian Zionism is.

http://christianzionism.org/Article/ThorsenD01.pdf

Here is a quote from the article I am currently reading:

"Frankly, Christian Zionism had not been a term with which I was all that familiar, and I did not use it in my teaching at that time. However, I began to study the topic and increasingly realized its injustice and inhumanity to a variety of people in the Mideast and, indeed, the United States. My discomfort with Christian Zionism increased after the devastating terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001. I was appalled when my pastor at Calvary Chapel specifically called the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq to be holy crusades against Islam, and that””despite what politicians said””the real reason for going to war was to protect and promote the interests and expansion of the state of Israel. Everything related to Israel was considered virtuous, since my pastor believed in a kind of Israelitism in which all Jews would be saved and that all political and military decisions of Israel should be supported, since they were the linchpin for inaugurating the end times. These views are representative of classic dispensational beliefs and values. My pastor did not really care about Israel, in my opinion; he was mostly concerned about ushering in Armageddon. In fact, he predicted publicly that Jesus would return no later than the end of the decade. His flagrant disregard for justice, impartiality, and compassion led me to leave the church””that and his constant praise for FOX News as the only reliable media available. When I left, the pastor had been preaching as sermon series on the Book of Revelation that had lasted one and a half years, and he still had not completed the book!

I am somewhat embarrassed to admit, theologically speaking, that I attended a Calvary Chapel and subjected my family to their narrow eschatological, dispensationalist, and fundamentalist views. I can only say that my intentions had been for everyone's well- being, especially for the needs of my children. I still teach and encourage my Calvary Chapel students, but I would never attend their churches again. Their pretribulational premillennialism increasingly promotes Christian Zionism. They are by no means the worst proponents, but they are an example of an exasperatingly influential. (Calvary Chapels control more than one hundred Christian talk radio stations across the country, and they have a profound influence upon the politics as well as religion of their listeners.) The social, political, and economic implications of their eschatology are becoming distressingly equated with what it means to be a good Christian as well as a good citizen of the United States. It is civil religion gone amok, especially considering their apocalyptic aspirations; God and country in support of the nation of Israel have become inextricably bound up with one another in being a good Christian and a good American."

This article shows me that many are blindly supporting Israel in everything.


No one seems to want to answer my question (including Jeremy) on whether they support the rebuilding of the temple and why? Maybe you can encourage him to answer the question.

S
sermonindex

Saints,

We cannot have this going back and forth, calling names, making accusations! Cannot we see this is a terrible example to other believers on the internet that would read this thread? When our conversations diminish down to slang words, and a chat room atmosphere it does not do good for any saints who would reference this thread in the future. I strongly encourage saints for more personal chit-chat that they would do this privately via email or messenger.

Alot is at stake as we are adding our voices and contributions alongside some of the godliest brethren who have been in church history. Paul the Apostle had to call out 2 names of sisters who would simply not stop arguing and debating in the local assembly, this is written for all Church history and eternity. Would you like your name in the Bible in this way for all to read, what a shame it would be!

Philippians 4:2 New International Version (NIV)

2 I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord.


All of us have transgressed in this way before but we have to honestly ask ourselves are we acting in this way and close to being like these sisters we find in the Church in Philipi?


We are locking this thread.

D
dolfan

J,

I don't mean to make overmuch of your word choice. This is way more than semantics, for sure.

Is Jesus "ruling and reigning through His Church"?

When I view the scope of His rule as described in absolute terms in the Bible, and I compare it to what is happening now on Earth, I say, "no".

"Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end." Isaiah 9:7 vs. "Because iniquity [lawlessness] shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." Matthew 24:12

This is not Christ "ruling and reigning through His Church". The rebellion of man, the rebellion of Israel even, continues. The transgression has not yet been finished nor has sin been ended. As it stands, the government of Christ, if the Church is the extent of it on earth, is an abject failure. The trajectory of the Church must be elevated without biblical textual support in order to arrive at some future day where the world is somehow made subject to Christ if He does not rule here.

On the other hand, when I look at the ascended Christ, I see Him on the throne. "He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death." 1 Cor. 15:25-26. Hebrews 1:13 "Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." He IS King of kings, Lord of lords. But, that throne is the throne of the Father. "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on my throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." Rev. 3:21. It is not the throne of David. "...the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David.: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." Luke 1:30-33.

Furthermore, the reign of Christ must include the reign of the Church at some point, but not prior to the resurrection. "Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. ... Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years." Rev. 20:4, 6. It is not mere spiritual rule. "And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations -- 'He will rule them with a rod of iron; they shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels' -- as I also have received from My Father." Rev. 2:26-27

There is an earthly reign of Jesus Christ that has not yet occurred. It does not diminish His kingship as king of that kingdom of God that does not come observably. Luke 17:20. Yet, it does consummate that which was promised. Jesus will reign on earth. That kingdom WILL be seen. "Every eye shall see Him." Rev. 1:7.

Preterists like R.C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries spiritualize the reigning of the church.

"We may not often think of ourselves as kings and queens who will rule over creation, but this consequence of our redemption flows directly from who the Lord made us to be and what salvation accomplishes in repairing His broken images. God made us to have dominion over creation, to rule it for His glory (Gen. 1:26-31). We forfeited our ability to fulfill this vocation in Adam, but Christ has succeeded in reigning over creation as the last Adam. In Him, we are now able once more to achieve our original purpose as righteous rulers of the world (Rom. 5:12-21; Eph. 2:1-7). ... [W]e are even now reigning with our Savior in many ways. Sin no longer has dominion over those who believe in Jesus, for we live in the gracious era in which we have been adopted as God's children. ... By the Spirit, we can now conquer sin and grow in holiness. We are also free from the tyranny of the Law over guilty consciences. Forgiven in Christ, we may fulfill the royal law of liberty in serving our Creator."

See, Sproul spiritualizes the ruling and reigning of the church. If this present era is our rule, we Christians in the West are rebels and traitors of the worst sort and I don't see the whole of the gospel as meaning very much in this culture. And, I don't read any testimonies of Christians in the Eastern hemisphere living like rulers and co-regents with Christ, but instead as subjects laying down their lives in the hope of ruling with Him one future day. If THIS is our rule, if His kingdom has come and His will IS being done on Earth as it is in heaven, we really ARE reduced to things like "making an impact". And, I don't mean to pick on your word choice there, but you are not alone in using it. It seems to be the whole ministry of the church in our culture that it just somehow, you know, make an impact. (And, I hasten to add that for most of those folks who are so minded, the gifts of the Spirit are relegated to the past, too. It is a wonder that anyone even bothers with Jesus anymore if what we see around us is what He died to bring.)

His will is being done -- in some degree -- by His obedient servants. But, His will means His rule. His authority. Obeyed. Without rebellion. It is not yet. It will be though, and it will be on Earth.

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