Biblical cosmology

Examine.

http://www.flatearthbible.com/flat-earth-in-the-scriptures-uncontested-revealed-truth/

"Flat Earth in The Scriptures Uncontested. Does the bible say the earth is flat
Revealed truth

Remember, what the apostle Paul said, "but test (or prove) everything; hold fast what is good!" (1 Thes 5:21 ESV)
Christians should not be afraid of investigating for the truth."

Edited to add quotation marks since those are not my words but the words accompanied by the video.

I wonder what would be our world view if we were living 200 years ago and only have the Bible and our own eyes as source of information...

This is addressed in the video

I did not tell you to believe it, I told you to examine it. Can examining something hurt you? I will believe what is proven to me. Thanks for the input.

Thanks forrests for linking this video. I realize now that the scope of this topic way exceeds the possibilities of one thread, since outside of a biblical the FE has a cultural, a scientific, a psychological, a political. etc aspect, and we are not all experts so it would result in endless debate. Please allow me to narrow the topic to one question:
If we had the bible and our own simple observations and not have today's vast information from culture science etc. Would we come up with the idea that the earth is a sphere? The two Christians in the linked video state this and I strongly disagree, the way I see it the bible rather points to a flat earth than to a sphere.
Blessings,
Zsuzsanna

Christinyou,
In the last year lot of people published the results of their own personal experiments on the internet, including amateur rockets, balloons, physics experiments and theories etc. that makes an average thinker question the one sided information that can be gained from modern textbooks, magazines etc. When I flew to Hungary this Spring I made pictures from the airplane the horizon was flat and rose to eye level. The windows of the airplane did not have distortion...
I ask the posters please stick to the bible text from now on to see whether it describes a flat or globe earth.
Thank you,
Zsuzsanna

This is an old Athiests gotcha question. They usually ask it in context that the followers of Jesus are simple or uneducated and always were.

The thinking goes like this. If Jesus was God then why did he not tell mankind scientific truth concerning the cosmos? And why is it not recorded in the bible? I have never had a single one even try to rebut these versus when they see them and if it's good enough for athiest it should be enough here.

Jesus of course knew the earth was round and told us. He said in the "night" (a specific time at some point on the planet) and then mentions 3 different pairs of people doing things that happen at three different times on the earth, therefor the earth is round. I list them in their broadest terms.

In the field -8am til 4pm
At the mill - 4 pm til 12pm
In bed - 12pm til 8am

Luke- 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Marcmc

why?....why?

(I write in love, PLEASE don't mistake the tenor of my response, I BEG YOU)

you quoted Paul, so will I, then I will let Ian Paisley
speak for me.

" Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them."
Acts 20:28-30 (ESV)

"Fundamentalism Versus Apostasy" Ian Paisley
http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=6863

be not cross with me, please, in Jesus love, neil

I conclude that most of the readers find the idea of FE or geocentricity so absurd that they are not even willing to look at the scriptures.
Here is an article from ligonier ministries that dares to tackles this topic:
"Martin Luther and John Calvin believed geocentrism to be a true description of God’s creation."
http://www.ligonier.org/blog/luther-calvin-and-copernicus-reformed-approach-science-and-scripture/
docs, the Catholics believe that Jesus Christ the son of God died on the cross to bring us salvation. Should I not believe this idea because they are Catholics and worship Mary?
marc, According to current theories there are time zones in FE.
Lysa, I wanted to discuss the Bible not Aristotle.
Neil, Do you think that this idea is dangerous? It wasn't in the early church.

Thanks all the contributions they are good sources of information and have a humbling effect.

One more question:
How do you explain that God created the light and earth before He created the Sun and Moon while main stream science says that the earth came about from spinning dust in space? That would mean the Earth was always spinning and orbiting around the sun. Maybe when God created the Sun He also set the Earth in motion and on orbit?

God bless you.
Zsuzsanna

What would Aristotle do with this kind of Lunar eclipse? He did not know about the supposed refraction.
http://abc7ny.com/science/tonights-lunar-eclipse-is-so-unique-its-impossible/340212/

Thanks docs, I hoped to have a discussion about the Bible verses, the creation and biblical cosmology. We do not have to agree with one video, but may discuss the scriptures regarding those questions. I do not agree with the end time views of that video. There are lots of issues with the Catholics also but they got that one thing right...

Thanks twayneb, I see that no one is puzzled by the scriptures presented in the video or Luther and Calvin or the creation question I presented. But I am puzzled.
I heard this quote before but forgot who it is from:
"We rather have questions that can not be answered than questions that can not be asked"
Again I brought up this video not to agree with it but to talk about the questions it brings up. The same way that we could discuss for example whether the bible teaches that Mary to be worshipped or not.
"I would not subject myself to it's teaching"
Please don't, this teaching is up for discussion, as in prove everything and hold fast to what is good.
God Bless you,
Zsuzsanna

Edit I apologise for misquoting the poster, here is the correct quote: "In my opinion, I would not subject myself to their teachings." Neither do I and never did. I hoped to discuss ideas not teachers. I am not Pauls ot apollos' we do not follow humans we follow Christ.

you asked me:
"Neil, Do you think that this idea is dangerous? It wasn't in the early church."

no, I do not think that this all is "dangerous", BUT I see the same old dysfunctional rubric settling in, said rubric, "pet" beliefs or "doctrines" slash agenda's....but precious one:

THE FAULT IS MINE...its on me, fore I NEVER should have responded, forgive me. and with that, I only wish the Grace and the Love and the Mercy of God on your dear heart and soul, in Jesus Love, neil

I am glad that it's not dangerous, since no one is interested in this discussion I do not insist. It was my pleasure to hear your opinions.
Thanks everyone,
and God bless you, I love you all,
Zsuzsanna

Luke 12:7King James Version (KJV)

7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Biblical cosmology.
All the bible verses related to how our universe is.

I do not believe in evolution in the eyes of the unbelievers I am fool enough. Do you?

I believe evolution as the variation of species, but do not believe that we came about by evolution.
"The spherical shape of the earth is proven and observable fact beyond all question."
Prove it to me with scientific experiments that an average person is capable to perform and/or understand.
No doctored pictures, news from magazines, opinions of people like Michio Kaku, Steven Hawking etc. No pictures by a telescope that I've never even seen, No theories of big bang etc. please.
Who has seen the curvature, which civil engineer calculated with the curve? How does a gyroscope which keeps its rotation plain in the same angle regardless of curve keep planes in line? Why doesn't a gyroscope apparently turn as it should if the earth rotates? Why do not big mass objects on earth attract each other by gravity? Who saw or repeated the experiment by Cavendish regarding gravity? Is it conclusive? Explain how Foucault's pendulum works so I can understand, Why can the Chicago skyline be seen from the other side of the lake? Why don't I feel acceleration while travelling from the North toward the Equator? Why does it take for planes the same time to travel a distance West to East and East to West? Why doesn't Polaris ever move? Etc.... What about classic experiments like Michaelson-Morey, and Airy's failure?

You can write me an e-mail but here I thought we could talk about the Bible. Ever since I first read the Bible this verse was strange to me:
Revelation 6:14King James Version (KJV)

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

It could be symbolic or literal but why would God compare the huge universe with all the billions and billions lightyears and stars to a scroll? Same is with the tree: Why would God suggest that a tall tree can reach Heaven (anyway where is it? How many billions of light years away) and can be seen from all over the earth? At all why does the Bible suggest that up and down means anything? And there is the account of creation as I mentioned, how can it be harmonized with the official big bang and spinning dust?
And there is this verse:
Genesis 1:14
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Why didn't God say that he creates the stars and planets moons so we can go there if the earth overpopulates? No he said they were to show time to us which they do. There are many more such verses. Why wouldn't God tell it to us if it's not so?

No, not at all, dear TMK it might be a test but I am not testing you, it is just difficult to speak openly in a mocking and hostile atmosphere. But here it is, and this is personal:
There are two reasons I am questioning all that is so evident for you and used to be for me. 1. High school physics class, where I learned that in science everything is (should be) testable, and should be proven by measurements and observations 2. An uncovered lie by a science related agency regarding a major proof of globe earth, and the consequent distrust on my part.
I along with many others have this idea that FE can be proven or disproven by direct experiments and observations by common people i.e. not using high cost apparatus and highly trained scientists.

The bible was written by ancient men who had no idea about much of anything beyond what their senses could tell them. I am not saying they were not inspired in what they wrote but the purpose of the inspiration was not astrophysics, geology, mathematics, chemistry, physics, biology, optics, etc etc etc.

I don't see anything wrong with the topic. I question everything that l have been taught and have looked intently at the Apollo program and the Holocaust, to understand for myself whether they really happened or not.

I am not convinced about a FE however.

Aaaah new thread I think :)

Thank you heydave and christinyou for the thoughtful and sober answers. Christinyou, the scientific questions were brought up by me as examples because TMK said there are no questions, but I did not want to discuss them on this thread. I would be happy to have a conversation with you about eclipses gyroscopes etc. but here I wanted to discuss bible verses related to our world view. Heydave I like your balanced approach and your respectful words. You say that in certain things such as creation we should go by the bible against the "obvious" and "evident" "proofs" of evolution provided by science, because it looks to you that evolution is difficult to believe. But in the case of view of the universe to go against the "obvious" and "evident" "proofs" of current scientific theories of the world is wrong because it looks to you that these latter are not difficult to believe. I know that when we read the Bible we should look to the Holy Spirit for explanation.
Does reading the bible lead you to a proof of globe earth and heliocentrism as it is said in the video linked by forrests, (the christian scientist said in the video that if you read the bible honestly you come up with the globe view) or to the ancient Hebrew worldview.
If you decide to go by the current scientific view where is your limit? Do you also believe the big bang theory and the spinning dust theory for the creation of the Earth or in this case would you go with the biblical creation, which is not compatible with today's heliocentrism as the earth was created before the sun?

What proof do you have that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

"I question everything that l have been taught." Me too. But I purposely tried to avoid topics that may be deemed by others as "conspiracy theories" and are highly controversial therefore - for a very good reason - are recommended by the moderators not to be discussed on these forums. That's why I wanted to keep to the Bible verses.

I just don't think it is fair to us, and especially to God, to give credence to false theories. To say that the earth is flat and is the center of the universe subtracts from God's glory. It is His creation after all, and it is important to accurately portray what he has created. Did you watch the video I posted? It is pretty mind blowing how glorious the creation is.

What's wrong with wanting to search the Bible and question God for truth in the case when there is an uncertainty in us about anything including the world?

Edit: "question God" is an unfortunate expression thanks to my poor English. I meant:Ask God to answer my questions about what is the truth.

The threads I started were on the instigation of someone asking a question. Nothing more.

nothing.

savannah:
Scientists are not always right. Sometimes they compare their findings and modify their theories. That's how it should always be with men, but not so with God. Here is an other view:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk_NzMejP-0

Todd it is no problem to ask an innocent question and get an answer unless it steps on some truth deniers toes. Those with agendas make a big noise and cause the trouble and count on others being silenced.

In my opinion God can answer ANY question.
Science answers physical natural questions, but not spiritual ones. Plus science can be wrong, God can not be wrong. Which one is bigger?

TMK you took my answer to heydave out of context and misunderstood it. The context was that creationinsts rely on bible account concerning evolution but do not rely on bible verses when discuss the universe.

Dolfan
According to the current model of FE it's a disc with the north pole in the center and an outer rim of ice wall on the South to keep the oceans in, and a land on the rim.
If a ship sails to the West while keeping its way constantly perpendicular to his compass showing North it will circumnavigate the FE without reaching an edge. Those who sail to the South will reach Antarctica and the huge ice walls which according to the model is on the edge.

Since the radius of the Earth is smaller in the north than at the Equator and both places travel around the Earth in one day the point at the Equator travels faster, so when I approach it from the North I should feel a speeding up.

According to current FE model the constellations and all the stars the sun and moon circle over FE. Up and down has a well defined meaning in scriptures, which is compatible with the FE model.

Edit I would like to correct: I said radius of the Earth smaller. Of course the radius of the earth is near the same everywhere, I meant the radius of the circular motion as the Earth spins.

Brothers and Sisters,

Though the possibility of a flat earth seems interesting, I would not put it past God. But overall we should not speculate on these things or focus but rather seek First the Kingdom of God. We also ask that repeated threads on this topic not be opened as it is not leading to mutual edification but rather alot of speculation, conspiracies etc.

We have many "sure" things to share and discuss from the Scriptures that will edify and grow us in our Spiritual Walks with the Lord.

We are locked this thread as enough has been considered on this topic.

Thanks dolfan for bringing up scriptures to talk about.

The earth is hung on nothing, empty space. Job 26:7. The only way a surface of Earth's properties can be suspended in empty space is to be surrounded by empty space. That space hosts constellations, mazzaroth in Hebrew, Job 38:31, 32, which rotate in such fashion relative to our surface that no such movement visible to us is possible were we not on a spherical object.

Job 26:7King James Version (KJV)

7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Job 38:31-32King James Version (KJV)

31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

The surface of the Earth is surrounded by empty place. True. Over the surface of the earth there is air which in King James' time was called empty place. I think verse 7 is speaking about the firmament that is over the air, That's what is stretched out, why is it called North I am not sure. Perhaps because the stretching started in the middle (by FE model North is in the middle) "hangeth the earth upon nothing" The Bible says that the Earth hangs on nothing, but at other places it says that the earth has foundation and pillars. Could this mean that it is not supported from above (hang) but from below (fundation)?
Job 9:6-9King James Version (KJV)

6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.

7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.

8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

9 Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south.

God created the constellations and orders their precise movement to show us times and dates.

which rotate in such fashion relative to our surface that no such movement visible to us is possible were we not on a spherical object.

There is a way that they can circle over us: if they are in the firmament and it is possible to see them not only from a spherical object.

Genesis 1:14-15King James Version (KJV)

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

There is no indication here that there is a vast depth of space spotted with stars billions and billions of light years away, nor that the Earth is a sphere or that it moves.
How about the 6 days anyway if a star was created on the first week but we can not see it just billions and billions of light years later? This is not indicated in the text.