ON THE 'SIN' OF SENDING KIDS TO PUBLIC SCHOOL

ON THE 'SIN' OF SENDING KIDS TO PUBLIC SCHOOL

Published: 02/07/2005

The man who helped push the issue of public education onto the national agenda of the Southern Baptist Convention has written a new book that blows the lid off government schools, showing parents the kind of worldview and values their children are influenced by 180 days a year.

Bruce Shortt, author of "The Harsh Truth About Public Schools,” presents myriad reasons why government institutions are failing America’s children and thumbing their noses at parents with a religious worldview.

As WorldNetDaily reported, last year Shortt helped spearhead an unsuccessful effort to have the Southern Baptist Convention pass a resolution urging its members to remove their children from public school.

In "The Harsh Truth About Public Schools,” Shortt, writing from a biblical perspective, presents rigorous research about the agenda and effect of government schooling on the nation’s young people.

Shortt especially wants to educate Christian parents, millions of whom send their kids off to public school every day.

"Contrary to what many Christians have been led to believe, there is no such thing as a ‘neutral’ education,” Shortt writes. "All education is religious and conveys a worldview, and there is no more important decision that we make as parents than how we educate our children.”

Continues Shortt: "Unfortunately, Christian parents allow an aggressively anti-Christian institution to form the minds of their children, and the fruit of that choice is bitter. The overwhelming majority of children from evangelical families leave the church within two years after they graduate from high school; only 9 percent of evangelical teens believe that there is any such thing as absolute moral truth; and, our children are being forcibly indoctrinated to believe that homosexual behavior is acceptable.”

While Shortt wants Christian parents who use the government schools to read the book, he also encourages homeschooling parents to read it.

"Homeschool parents must have this book to minister to their Christian friends and neighbors, pastors and skeptical relatives. Our government-school habit is sowing the wind, and unless Christians turn from this gross sin we will reap a whirlwind that is unimaginable,” Shortt says.

In the book, Shortt documents the pitfalls of public schools, saying the anti-Christian thrust of the governmental school system produces inevitable results: "moral relativism (no fixed standards), academic dumbing down, far-left programs, near absence of discipline and the persistent but pitiable rationalizations offered by government education professionals.”

Shortt also urges pastors to read the book so they might "understand why the church can no longer abdicate its historic role in the education of our children.”

Says Short: "‘The Harsh Truth About Public Schools’ makes it clear why no Christian child should be left behind in government schools. Our Christian children are perishing because parents and pastors lack knowledge. The information in this book exposes the ‘salt and light’ and the ‘our schools are different’ rationalizations for educating Christian children in pagan schools for the contemptible falsehoods they are.

"Any parent or pastor who genuinely desires to be faithful in the education of Christian children needs to find out what the public schools are actually doing, rather than relying on what they are saying they are doing or on memories of the public schools as they may have existed 10, 20 or 30 years ago.”

Shortt makes his argument by citing a school district in Texas.

"There is no public school district in the country that has more Christians in the community or in the schools than that of Plano, Texas,” he said. "In fact, the largest and most powerful church in the state of Texas, Prestonwood Baptist, is located in Plano. Yet, it took a court order to force the Plano schools to allow Christian school children to privately give classmates Christmas gifts that had a Christian message. Moreover, the school district had even prohibited schoolchildren from bringing red and green napkins to the school ‘holiday’ parties for fear the colors might remind someone of Christmas.

"The truth is that the public school policy and curriculum decisions that matter to Christians are not made locally. They are largely dictated by federal and state court decisions, federal and state legislation and regulations, and the teachers’ union and other professional associations connected with the public schools.”

But what about reforming the public schools? Isn’t that a solution?

Responds Shortt: "Public schools cannot be reformed to provide a Christian education, and the evidence is overwhelming that even conventional secular reforms to reinstate traditional academic and moral standards will continue to fail. But even if you think that we should nevertheless try to reinstate traditional academic and moral standards in the schools, taking your children out is the most effective thing you can do to help the children whose parents have left them behind in the public schools. Only the threat of a collapse of the entire public school system offers even the remotest prospect of positive change. Traditional reform efforts are a waste of time.

"Even if you believe that there is nothing wrong with institutionalizing Christian children in public schools, you need to read this book because you may be wrong. Remember, you only get one chance to educate your children. There are no do-overs.”

When I read articles like this I am reminded of the hypocrisy of many of those involved in homeschooling. In the circle of people I know who homeschool at least 75% make their living off the public school system as teachers or support businesses like tutoring. The remainder are frustrated teachers who found the public education system too constricting to work in or too basic for their "genius" children.

Jeremy your view is absoultely flawed. If a Christian working in Public school decides to home school his kids, is this hypocricy? How? If a Christian does not take the role of public school teacher and be the light among kids in public school then who else will be light to those children? I find nothing wrong in being a teacher in public school though you do not want your kids to be part of the system.

I personally believe that home schooling is the best option but not all can afford to do it. If you do not have grace to do it then no problem put your kids in public school in full faith. If we Christians do not have faith that our God can keep our Children true and safe then who else will have?

My stand is like how Apostle Paul believes that it is better for some one to be unmarried but not all can take that word hence it is better to get married than to burn with lust.
In families where both husband and wife needs to work, there is nothing wrong in sending their children to public school in faith.

The hypocrisy I see is that many homeschooling parents exalt the homeschooling method as preserving their children from the indoctrination in worldly wisdom. However, if a parent is a teacher in the system that actively indoctrinates what they don't want for their own children, then how are they loving their neighbor as themselves. They harvest the wealth from the 'bloated' and wasteful system while following guidelines and curriculum that will make their students, as common view among homeschoolers seems to be, less able to see and hear the Gospel. I know plenty of 'Christian' homeschoolers who don't know the Gospel despite being fed it their entire lives in varying forms.

I think it would be a valid discussion to examine the historical philosophical foundations of the modern homeschool movement as well as current trends and compare them to Scripture in a sober manner so that parents who are embarking on this in faith can be warned of the pitfalls and weaknesses thereof. Homeschooling today represents an entire worldview that can transform not only the children but their parents as well. I am not equipped to facilitate this type of discussion however, there are many threads full of discussion and advice regarding homeschooling here on SI already.

This question was sent to numerous God fearing men. All pastors of the flock of God. The answers I received were similar to the one given here by a pastor of over 40 years.

I was wondering if you might furnish me with a
Biblical defense of either the
neutrality,indifference,command,permission/allowance
or otherwise respecting God's will for the christian
to send their children to be educated by
state/government-run institutions where the teachers
and fellow students are for the most part
unbelievers,God-haters,anti-Christ and immoral, where
hypocrisy abounds and the religion of secular humanism promoted.

Please reply ASAP if able.

PS APOLOGIA - The Greek word meaning "a spoken or
written defense."

It appears eight times in the New Testament, in the
context of people defending their faith or actions by
reason and logic.

From Webster's Dictionary: apologia
\\ap-uh-LOH-jee-uh;-juh\\, noun:
A formal defense or justification, especially of one's opinions, position, or actions.

From Websters Dictionary (1828 edition)

Apologetic - Defending by words or arguments; excusing; said or written in defense, or by way of apology; as an apologetic essay.

"But sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you..." 1 Peter 3:15

His answer;

Sorry it took me a couple of days to answer you. As far as I can tell I could not do what you asked, God did say of Abraham that he knew he would teach his children Gen 18:19. Ultimately we are responsible for our children in every aspect of their lives as long as they are under our care.

So the question remains. If any on SI can stick to the question and answer from the Bible please do so.

Philosophies and agendas are not being questioned, as they tend to lead to endless arguments.

So study the question before answering please.

Spiritual education is shared by the church and perhaps from the child's family.

Professional/technical skills and competency certifications
is generally acquired from public educational system.

For instance, how can one become a certified health professional or accountant without going to public school system. And while our children are schooling what we can do is to pray hard for them, keep our line of communication open, and set godly example.

To many, it won't be as easy as we wish.

Only the parents are responsible for any child's spirituality. Neither the Church we attend or school we send. The Church and school can assist the parents by imparting Godly values but they are not responsible.

Malachi 2:15:- And what did that one do while he was seeking a godly offspring?

Who is God seeking Godly offspring from? Not from Church or schools but parents. Hence parents have to impart good value into their chirldren.

In my Church here in Dallas, a family felt uncomfortable to join us because we did not have enough teenagers to start a youth meeting and encourage them. But this is what I felt, it is not Church that needs to train your teen kid with youth meeting, it is the parents responsibility first. As a Church we can organize a meeting to encourage your child but that should not be a criteria to look for in a Church at all.

Romans 14:23:- everything that is not from faith is sin.

In respect to putting the kids in public school, yes we as parents have to take the decision. But if we take the decision in faith that God will protect our kids and keep them as light in a dark world then God will definitely honor us. There are for several reason that we might need to put our children in Public schools. Lack of finance to put them in private schools and both mother and father have to work to run the family. In such cases God will honor our stand taken by faith.

In bringing up children, I believe in just one thing, if I do my part then God will definitely do his part. My part is to disciple my children and teach them God's ways as per God's word. Then put the rest in God's hand in faith.

Why it’s sinful to send Christian children to public schools -

The topic of education is one of the most divisive topics in American churches today, but it is one of the most important topics needing to be addressed because how we educate our children affects the future of Christianity.

In this two-part sermon, Pastor Ralph Ovadal addresses the topic of education without compromise, calling on Christian parents to remove their children from the openly atheist government schools in America.

In part one of this message, Pastor Ovadal asks tough questions like: "Where does Satan want Christian kids to go: government schools? Or homeschools.” In part two, he turns to Scripture after Scripture to make his case that once a parent understands the danger and unbiblical nature of government schools, it is a sin to send their children there: "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” ”“ James 4:17

This thought-provoking, biblical message is desperately needed to be heard today. As author and pastor Gregg Harris said of homeschooling in the 1990’s: "This move of God is the revival you all have been praying about…” He was right, but most Christians did not ”” and do not ”” recognize the modern homeschooling movement for what it is: a move of God "to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children and the children to the fathers.”

Click below to listen to this message -

http://gospelapplied.com/audio/None_dare_call_it_sin_R_Ovadall.mp3

Part 2 -

http://gospelapplied.com/audio/None_dare_call_it_sin_Part_2.mp3

I do not want to Sound as a self appointed Moderator here but the topic discussed here is clearly not Biblical. It leads to condemnation. Also posting such external links and sermons are against the policy of SI. Hence I request the poster to no post such accusing posts. There will be families who genuinely cannot afford homeschooling. For them public school is the only means. Even to be called Pastor is not Biblical, is the author willing to repent from that?

I request moderator to take note of such teachings and remove them. False condemnation is equally sinful.

I am a veteran public High School teacher who sent his kids to a private Christian school. I am well aware of the problems of the public school system. I also believe that proper home schooling is far superior to most any other form of education that is available to parents today. I recently had a frank conversation with a college professor from our local university. He told me that he would rather have a class full of college students that had been home schooled to any other type of students. Public school graduates ,on the whole, are his worst students.

I have seen some Christian teens who not only survived public school spiritually, but were bright and shining lights and won friends to Christ. I have seen more Christian teens (usually that term was nominal or marginal) who did not survive spiritually and turned the way of the world.

It is not a sin to send your children to a public school. It is sin to disobey God as He directs you in how you should train your children. I have known of parents who home-schooled their children right up to the point of high school and they and their children decided that God wanted them to go through high school as a mission field. I have seen this be very successful, and I have seen it be a miserable failure.

I have three grandchildren now and I think a lot about their future. I have strongly encouraged my son and daughter in law to home school. In fact, she has already started with fun lessons at age 4-1/2 and my grandson is learning to read and loves it.

When making this decision, there are priorities. Spiritual growth is a far greater priority than intellectual growth. It has to be that way. It is far better for school, home, and church to agree, especially in the early years. I generally advise against public school for Christian parents. But, I think parents are going to have to pray about their choices. \\

As a bit of an aside, our church is looking seriously at starting a Christian school in the future, and if that happens I will no longer teach in the public school system. I have had some really great opportunities to be a source of strength to Christian students here and have been able to minister to many who were not. You would be surprised at the opportunities a Christian teacher can have if he prays that God will use him in the public school.

One more point I want to make. It is absolutely true that John Dewey is called the father of modern public education. Horace Mann was also heavily involved. Both these men had an anti-God agenda, Dewey having co-authored the humanist manifesto.

But public schools in America still retain a great degree of local control. The atmosphere in the school is usually determined by the school leadership. We have 90 staff in our high school. This year 25 of them met on the first day of school to pray for the school and the students. That is a pretty high percentage, and the current administration seems to hire many good Christian teachers. We are probably one of the better public schools. I did not want my children to have to struggle, but to be trained in the things of God all day long. I can only imagine what things are like in other schools.

As one who has chosen to keep my children as far away from the public schools as possible and has never regretted it one bit - I share this as a warning regarding calling something such as choosing to send your child to public school "sin" (while I do not believe it is wise or good):

Be Careful Before You Call Someone Antinomian - Tim Conway
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkXo0oTKo8M

In Germany homeschooling is forbidden and violators get prosecuted. There are a few Christian schools,but not everywhere. The same applies to many other countries in the world.

I send my kids to public school.
Do I have to burn in hell now?

Shall we start a similar thread condemning gun owners, TV watchers, non-KJV readers, those who don't pray for an hour every day, non-tithers....you name it.

In Germany homeschooling is forbidden and violators get prosecuted. There are a few Christian schools,but not everywhere. The same applies to many other countries in the world.

I send my kids to public school.
Do I have to burn in hell now?

Shall we start a similar thread condemning gun owners, TV watchers, non-KJV readers, those who don't pray for an hour every day, non-tithers....you name it.

Perhaps in the natural order of things, the parents take lead of the spiritual education of their children. There are however, many parents today that really need the help of the church in this regard by the reason of spiritual immaturity, competency, dysfunctional family dynamics or spiritual state.

Not all christian parents is well-off enough nor have luxury of time, nor educated enough to home school their children. How many is really capable of home schooling their children. I have heard it many times, blaming parents for this matter, but will not the church lift even a finger to help handicapped christian parents or invest effort, time, and money to ease this great responsibility.

For example, they can include other children as they homeschool their child or share in hiring a capable believer to teach them.

In many countries, professional/technical certification is needed if you want to follow a certain career. I doubt if home schooling can address that. At a certain point after primary or secondary education, majority have to send their children to public higher educational system and it will be a real big spiritual battle for our children.

I do not understand how Moderators permit such articles in this site. This post has been here for quite sometime without any action from moderators which means they are in agreement with it. Really surprised by lack of discernment.

I homeschooled my 7 children all the way through. I have much to say on the matter. However, I am not willing to come under the attack that so often happens on this forum. This is disgraceful. Also, calling something sin is not necessarily condemnation.

My wife and I homeschool our two kids, ages 5 and 7. It is definitely a sacrifice and a burden as both of us work, though I am self-employed and make my own hours. It is not easy, but it has been rewarding.

I would definitely not call it a sin to not homeschool. It is a personal conviction. Once we begin delegating what is sin and what is not sin based upon how someone chooses to raise their children, we tread on pharisaical ground. Truth be told, it is none of my business how someone in this forum elects to educate their kids. That is between them and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gives certain light to individuals. This "light transfer" and its receiving and obeying is nobody's business to judge, regulate or legislate except by the receiver and the Lord. His light is accompanied by corresponding convictions, and those who receive from Him are inclined to obey, for in their spirit they know it is best.

Some that I know home school their children because they don't want their children to be 'contaminated' and they even hesitate to mingle their kids with other christian children exactly because of this.

Although no one in our group really make this a big issue, as we understand their point, and are highly educated,but can we really convert or assure the sanctification or final salvation of our children this way, by strictly isolating them from the general society.

Someone even commented, are they not already contaminated in the first place being a child of Adam.

Good morning beloved,

I am in South Africa so cannot comment on the American schooling system.
I'm sure we have problems everywhere because of the humanistic, atheistic influences out there.
However, I have always maintained that we , as parents, are and should be the greatest influencers of our children and by communicating with them regularly and showing interest in their lives and experiences, and listening, we are able to understand the challenges and provide the necessary clarification and guidance.
In a public school they come across many things that clash with what they are taught at home and learn how to respond and how to make a stand for what their convictions are.
From an early age, with our help, they can understand the war between light and darkness in this world, and can learn to "be light" through faith in Jesus Christ and obedience to His commands and teaching.

God bless,

Many Christian parents are handicapped in training their children. I posted this again, because this is a real issue that we must be aware of. They need help in raising their children to a higher spiritual standard.

Sometimes we really have to be a sort of a second father, mother, or uncle for their children without being intrusive or imposing.

2 Cor 6

14Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15What accord has Christ with Belial?b Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? 16What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said,

"I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,and I will be their God,and they shall be my people.
17Therefore go out from their midst,
and be separate from them, says the Lord,
and touch no unclean thing;
then I will welcome you,
18and I will be a father to you,
and you shall be sons and daughters to me,
says the Lord Almighty.”

Deuteronomy 13

"If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.

Savannah, if you home-school, may God bless you and richly reward you, but do not turn against your brothers who do not have the means or see it differently. It is a wonderful freedom you enjoy in the US.

Be honest, would you home-school your children if you lived in Germany or North Korea and go to jail for it and have your children forcibly removed?

I agree with Brother Sree. The original post contains truth presented in the spirit of the accuser of the brethren.

Greg, may I kindly ask you to lock this thread ?

I suspect public schools differ from one district to another. I know for one thing you certainly would NOT want to send your child to a public school in our county.

The other options are homeschooling or private schooling. Home schooling gets a lot of praise on this forum, but we have seen some homeschoolers who discredit this type of schooling. Some can barely read which I consider shameful, especially when these parents consider themselves superior to others. They did have the option of sending children to a good parochial school but considered homeschool better. We are now seeing these children - who are married - sending their children to a conventional school.

My observation..

Sandra

How does a parent who knows nothing (or is no good at) higher math like calculus or trigonometry etc or science like chemistry or physics expect to homeschool their child in these subjects?

Are their children just limited to the very basics in their education?

"How does a parent who knows nothing (or is no good at) higher math like calculus or trigonometry etc or science like chemistry or physics expect to homeschool their child in these subjects?"

Great point. Ever heard of Khan Academy? The videos are all free on YouTube. The guy who created them has a remarkable gift to break down and explain even the most daunting subjects like Newtonian physics and quantum mechanics so that even a ten year old kid with basic math skills can clearly grasp the concept. It's made to be exciting. He wants to do school even on Saturdays and we have to tell him to take a break. Parents who choose not to homeschool can benefit immensely from these Khan videos too. And they are just a supplement to his regular curriculum which is filled with Bible and missions history. We use the accredited "Sonlight" program, which is not cheap, but definitely comprehensive and reading-intensive.

If we were to put him in a public or charter school right now (second grade level according to his age), I don't know what he would do. His cousin goes to an expensive Christian academy (one grade behind him) and they are still doing colors and practicing writing their names and memorizing the days of the week.

Hello,

I agree that it is a bit presumptuous to consider it a "sin" to send your children to public schools.

Some parents do this because they have no other viable options. There are many homes where both parents are forced to work in order to "make ends meet" in this "new normal" economy. There are other families in which the children live in a broken home with the single parent being forced to work. In other families, the believing parent may be at odds with an unbelieving spouse. What about families in which the parents struggle to pay bills and cannot afford to pay tuition or fees at a private school or lack the funds to buy homeschooling materials?

Who is available to home-school those children?

The law simply requires that a child receive an education up to a certain age.

I think that parents and their children need to come to understand the possible outcomes from their educational choices. Consider the following:

1.) Do your children want to attend college?

The school -- whether public, private or home school -- that your child attended will undoubtedly be a factor in the assessment of your child's application to a college or university. It can also be a major factor for consideration in financial aid situations (e.g., scholarships, institutional scholarships, non-federal grants, etc.).

Schools often have what is known as a "school profile" that assists admissions officers and financial aid administrators with academic assessment. For instance, the fact that a student is ranked #2 out of ten seniors in their small, unaccredited private school might not matter as much as a student who is ranked #27 out of 300 graduating seniors in a public school (because #2 out of 10 is not in the "top ten percent" whereas #27 out of 300 is).

Many states have built-in opportunities for children that attend public schools. For instance, states like Tennessee and Georgia offer "HOPE scholarships" to successful students from ELIGIBLE high schools. Texas and a few other states implement a "top ten percent rule" in which students (again from ELIGIBLE high schools) graduate in the top ten percent of their class and have automatic admission into the state-funded university of their choice. States like California have a "statewide path" that provides guaranteed admission to a state public college or university if you're in the top nine percent of your class (in eligible schools). Most states also provide financial aid opportunities to those same students.

2.) Home school students have a difficult time in university acceptance.

It is not impossible for homeschooling graduates to go to college. There are many community colleges and even some state and private universities that will accept any viable student who meets minimum requirements. However, it is more difficult for such students at major colleges and universities.

Standardized test scores can go only so far. Now, if someone has really great standardized test scores as a result of their high school education, then their opportunities will obviously be greater. However, average scores (or even slightly above average scores) aren't enough to guarantee a spot in an incoming freshman class at many schools. In most schools, those standardized test scores are just one of several different criteria used to determine whether or not a student is admitted. In many instances, even very high test scores aren't enough to obtain acceptance at a good school.

3.) Not all public, private, parochial or home schools or programs are equal.

There are plenty of bad public schools in terms of both morality or academic performance. However, the same is true of private, parochial and home schools. I have known some brilliant students who graduated from church schools or home schools. However, I have also known quite a few students who had parents who didn't take their education seriously enough. I've known several students who went to church schools (where academic standards weren't upheld faithfully) who scored exceptionally low on standardized college admission tests like the SAT and ACT.

As TMK mentioned, there are kids who are schooled by their parents who might struggle in courses like math, science or even language arts. Jesus said, "A disciple is not above his teacher" (Matthew 10:24 NASB). If the teachers (in this case, parents) aren't adequate with certain subjects, then it may prove difficult for their children to adequately grasp those subjects -- especially for college readiness.

4.) GED's greatly limit a student's accessibility to college admission.

In many cases, the pool of students with GED's among an accepted freshmen class is very, very small. In many cases, colleges and universities will rarely even consider such students except with a very limited set of exceptions.

5.) There are alternatives to public, private, parochial and home schools.

While it is "home school" in traditional sense, some students are taught by tutors. This is a common part of public schools in which a child might be too sick or otherwise preoccupied (e.g., pregnant, actors/actresses, travelers, etc.). In some cases, the local public school district will allow the student to receive an official high school diploma from the district if the tutors work with the district. The fact that a student "graduated" as a result of tutors is better because it would exempt the student from class or school ranking identifiers in the college admission process.

There is a new concept that borrows from this idea and sort of reminds me of the educational equivalent of "house churches." There are localized organizations of what would otherwise be considered "home school" students that attend a makeshift classroom arranged by a group of parents and taught by a set of private tutors (often parents of the students themselves). If one parent has a math degree, another has a science degree, another has an English degree, etc. (and enough of them have or obtain teaching certification), then this is akin to private tutoring that resembles home schools. Gaps from the parents' or tutors' area of education can be complimented by alternate options (such as Khan Academy as PaulWest mentioned).

For instance, my wife has teaching certifications in which she is certified by the state of California and can teach general education (preschool through high school) as well as Math, Spanish, ESL and Special Education. If another parent has a degree in English and still another in a science, then three parents have the opportunity to "tutor" those children and solicit the local district to award degrees.

Moreover, there are private and public charter schools in many states that are very good alternatives. One of my wife's siblings is a principal at one of U.S. News and World Report's top high schools in America (which happens to be a public charter). It is not as large as a traditional high school and it has many Christian students and teachers. It also enjoys a 100% college admission rate too.

6.) Higher education isn't a requirement for financial success.

This might be a taboo statement to some people. However, a person does not HAVE to go to college in order to obtain financial success. Recently, we had an issue with our hot water. I wasn't sure if we needed a new hot water heater, so we called a plumber. While he was there, I was on the phone with my niece (my wife's oldest brother's daughter) who had some questions about her impending semester. She had recently been awarded a major scholarship that will cover ALL of her expenses -- tuition, fees, room, board, supplies, travel, etc. -- all the way through a doctorate degree.

After I hung up, the plumber asked me about the conversation. I mentioned my niece and her scholarship. He mentioned that he sometimes wishes that he attended college, but that he was satisfied with his decisions. He told me that plumbing was much more lucrative than what he probably would have made if he had gone to college and majored in most of the fields that he was interested in. In fact, the guy was earning a surprisingly high income -- even by Silicon Valley standards.

In other words, a person can learn some vocational trades without the need for a formal college or university education. In many cases, college students accrue enormous amounts of debt (in the form of student loans) if they didn't find funding for college. A student who borrows $100,000 to get a degree in education will be $100,000 in debt before they even start a career. It will take decades to pay off that debt. However, a person who learns a trade through an apprenticeship can begin earning immediately and usually without any debt.

It doesn't take a degree to open a business. In many cases, it simply takes a small fee to pay for the license, insurance (sometimes optional) and the know-how to make that business successful.

Unfortunately, American society has pushed children into higher education without giving them the time to consider whether it is what they really want to do. Consequently, student loan debt has now surpassed $1 Trillion and the unemployment rate (or underemployment rate) is high even for college graduates.

7.) Parents should pray with their children for the direction of the Lord when it comes to education or jobs.

Parents should be open, honest and, of course, clear about the advantages and disadvantages of higher education.

That said: My wife and I haven't been forced to face such a decision yet. However, my wife would like to educate our children at home at least through elementary school. This is interesting in that she has been a public school teacher (and has taught at the university, community college, high school and middle school levels). My wife's family is very big on education too. Among my wife's siblings, all of them have college degrees and seven of them have post-graduate degrees. My wife and six of her siblings (as well as several of their spouses) have worked in education.

I do not think that it is a "sin" to send your children to public schools. Some people have no viable alternative.

Remember: Children (and adults) have different learning styles. Some are good at learning on their own. Others aren't better in a formal classroom setting.

Last year, before I came to USA, I was so scared about bringing up my kids in USA. It is definitely 1000 times easier to bring up your children in India than here. There is no restriction on disciplining the children in India, the schools are far better and higher standard. The Children are far more respectful to their parents even though they come from heathen families. I heard a verse in the Church I attended in India. A brother shared about how Joseph was asked to raiseup Jesus in Nazareth. Nazareth was such an evil place that time, even Nathaniel could not believe that something good can come out of this place. But Jesus came from there. So the situation that we live or our surroundings can do nothing to us if we live by faith. Joseph lived by faith and settled there.

I took this word and said, Lord if you want me to bring up my children in US then I will do it by faith just like how Joseph.

I understand the public school system here is also like that. It has evil influence on Children but if we parents have faith then we can bring up our children there in a Godly way.

A very Godly brother I know was once asked this question about putting their children in schools that teach against our belief. He said there is nothing wrong in going to such schools. In fact it will pave an opportunity for parents to teach the right thing. If we as Christian parent are not able to bring Godly influence on our children and blame the external influence then we are to put our head in shame.

I applied for my daughter in public school for PreK, in Dallas Tx, only under privileged children get into public school. They interviewed my kid and decided that she is well advanced to study there. Hence now I spend so much extra money to put her in a Church School. Next year, I will definitely put her in Public school in faith.

We are convinced of the unschooling approach to education.
Of course from a Christian perspective and not from a secular perspective as is the case with many unschoolers.

Though a secularist : John Taylor Gatto has done a great deal of research and provides a great deal of information concerning the men and there agendas originally behind america's compulsory schools.

Add : As far as college is concerned : neither myself nor my wife have any desire for that to be in the future of our children.
If God Calls any of them to a field that requires a college degree, than He will open those doors.

edit : clarity

add: By my Family not sending our children to public (tax payer funded) schooling we will be saving the tax payers $ 35,000 a year

(Supposing that it does not increase in the 13 years that they would be there.) (which it will)

That would total almost a half a million dollars of tax payer money that will not be wasted on the account of my family.
$455,000.

Please read this article, and prayerfully consider the things which are eternal...your children's souls!

http://www.hisglory.us/Articles/public_schools_book.htm

From the author of the article;

I recall the time that I went to an evangelistic meeting where the now-deceased Keith Green was ministering in music and the Word. I walked out because I felt that he was harsh, uncaring, and did not understand the grace of God. Two years later the Lord got hold of me and revealed areas in my sinful life that showed me that what Keith Green preached was exactly what I needed to hear. The problem was not with Keith Green-but with me.

_____ ___

Thank you, Savannah, for having the courage to post this. We are indeed responsible for our children's souls, as much as in our control.

One of the first things that I learned was the social class system.

Our kindergarten's had a morning and a afternoon depending on the location of your home. If you lived on one side of the railroad tracks you went to kindergarten in the morning.
If you lived on another side of the railroad tracks you went to school in the afternoon.

I had some cousins that went to school in Iowa, That school separated the students by those whom recieved free lunch vs those whom paid for there lunch.

In first grade we where consolidated togather into class rooms.
In these class rooms we where placed into 3 groups the A group the B group and the C group.

At 6 years old it was well recognized that you associated with those within your group.

I was in the B group which envied to be placed in the A group and feared to be placed in the C group.

It was well understood at 6 years old that those of us in B group where superior to those in the C group and us in the B group where inferior to those in A group

After the first grade, Students where than put into classes based on end of the year test. How you scored on these test is mostly what determined your placement.

Another thing I learned from 13 years of public education was what it is to be bullied.

My first recalled encounter was at 5 or 6 years old.
I was assigned by the school bus driver the third seat behind the driver.
A fourth grade african american boy told me to move.
Not wanting to be in trouble with the driver, I pressed close to the window instead of switching seats at which time the fourth grader proceeded to intimidate and beat on me.
A day or so latter the fourth grader did apologize to me and was nice to me from then on, I still to this day do not know what caused him to apologize to me.

Any thing that separates you from the norm becomes an area of harassment in that environment,
Mine was my accent, I took a great deal of ridicule, harassment and name calling because of it.

This harassment led to me receiving a 3rd degree concussion by a much larger bully in the seventh grade.
It happened on the basket ball court during the lunch hour no teacher saw it , The students picked me up and carried me to my class and set me in the desk at which time I woke up.

I could write on and on about the harassment and abuse that I and others recieved in the public school system.

That is no environment for my children!

proudpapa & mama27,

Did either of you happen to read the article from the hisglory website I linked?

Thanks so much for your contributions to this thread, and for showing appreciation for this vital issue of the education of our children.

I only skimmed it as I own the original book it was taken from. It was the foundation of how we raised our children. They range in age from 21-33. I would do the same if I had it to do over, and the times are considerably worse.

I have not read this entire thread. I've only opened it now in order to allow time to let the subject simmer for a bit as I knew that I would share a little.

My daughter went for 3 1/2 years, kindergarten through the middle third grade, to a local well respected highly regarded Christian school. What they were turning out were perfectly beautified and well spoken American consumers with so low regard for personal holiness that to call them Christians assumed a lot. It is an assumption that the school, and the mother ship church which forms most of its wealth and enrollment, is all too willing to make.

I was and am unwilling to have a host of self-congratulatory deep pockets mold my daughter into the image they loved to behold in a mirror. My deep fears were that she would love herself as they loved hemselves andtat she would sanctify that as being "Christian". It seemed to my wife and me to be a far more dangerous poison than merely sending her into the open cesspool of public school where she is taught by us that the smell of what is peddled there, and the toxicity of relationships there, are anti-Christ. She is taught the Way of Christ as being opposed to what she swims in everyday.

Our judgment is certainly not beyond question or challenge. But my daughter will not arrive to adulthood with the false indoctrination of an apostate church and have that presented to her as true Christianity. She is able, to some extent, to distinguish both the false church and the dark world in which she lives from true faith.

I do not believe that homeschool is a solution for all ills. It is a golden opportunity for families who are able to manage it. I envy that in many ways due chiefly to the time afforded parents who are able to spend such time with their children.

We made our decision in prayer. We analyzed. We waited. And, we acted. It is still a cesspool. But, my daughter is learning to hate the taste of it. And that is exactly what I want.

RE : /// Did either of you happen to read the article from the hisglory website I linked? ///

I quickly skimmed it , I will need to go back sometime and read it more thoroughly.

What I was able to retain from the artical I found to be very good.

Tim- very wise words.

I don't care what people choose to do with their kids as long as they teach them the things of God at home, even if they are home schooling. There are absolutely amazing Christians who have went to public schools, private schools and home schools.

I will make one observation however that is purely anecdotal but nonetheless I believe there is truth in it. And it is this: that the most amazing and effective Christians I know personally and not personally were not saved at a very young age but rather at an older age after they have experienced the evils of the world and perhaps have hit rock bottom or close to it themselves. I am not sure exactly why this is but I think it is true.

I believe kids saved very young struggle to keep the fire burning as they grow up especially in their teens and 20s. Of course there are exceptions but I believe this to be mostly true.

I am reminded of this passage : (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

At 5-6 years old while riding the school bus some older boys taught me some sign language : it consisted of closing your entire hand with the exception of the finger in the middle, Very quickly I relized that this was obviously against the rules because some of the kids on the bus where getting in trouble for it.
Two of the older boys forced my hand closed while forcing my middle finger open, and than they tattle tailed to the Bus driver that I was flying the bird.

This was before the days of kids with phones and internet which did not make it to our schools untill My high school years of which even than was only in certain classes for certain kids.
Yet I recall some of the kids in high school getting a hold of the school computer and printer and printing off the worst filth imaginable.
As depraved and as low as I have been what they printed off would never have been a temptation, It was that bad.

In the fifth grade A student brought to school a nude magazine to share around with his friends.
The teachers did not find out and we did not go home and tell our parents that we have been sitting in class looking at nude magazine.

One of the most disturbing things that I learned in Public school was not only the four letter words that where common talk but the perverted double meanings of common everyday words, I was much more naive than many but 13 years of that environment rids those with in it of being naive at very much.

In the seventh grade the music teacher would put vhs tape in the vhs player to occupy the basic music students so they could leave the room to go to another room and work with the choir. many times physical altercations would take place at this time.
I recall that sometimes these vhs tapes where Rater R movies with what goes along with rated R movies

Most of the fights, where done under the radar of the teachers. Not all though!
In the seventh grade one of my good friends a small nerdy boy with glasses learned a lesson in school to never where glasses again. He was setting on the Bleachers in the gym, the bottom bleachers where pushed in , A much larger bully came along grabbed him by his shirt collar and pulled his face, glasses and all straight to the ground which put him into the hospital.

That boy never recieved a beating again, his dad than got him into boxing of which he was very motivated at learning and became very good at very quickly.

I can go on and on with such stories but at the end of my seventh grade I had enough of this school so I begged to move in with my dad and go to a smaller rural school instead of the 150-200 kids per grade I was transfered to a school with 20-30 kids per grade.
Fighting was not so much of the environment but not being ostracized seemed very important, you where either part of the group that all conformed togather or you where simply of the 1 or 2 out cast.

One of the 6th graders brought not nude magazine but porno magazine. They where looked at by almost all in the changing rooms, they where passed out for everyone to take home.

That is not an environment that I want for my childen.

re: "Tim- very wise words."

I will agree with your sentiment on only one condition. If such is in agreement with the following very wise words...

Whoever keeps company with the wise becomes wise, but the companion of fools suffers evil. Proverbs 13:20

Proverbs 1:1The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel:2To know wisdom and instruction,  To discern the sayings of understanding,3To receive instruction in wise behavior,Righteousness, justice and equity;4To give prudence to the naive, To the youth knowledge and discretion,5A wise man will hear and increase in learning, And a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel,6To understand a proverb and a figure, The words of the wise and their riddles.7The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate you: rebuke a wise man, and he will love you.9Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

...BUT... they are NOT! For what has been posted is contradictory to the very wise Word of God. Therefore they are not very wise words but rather very foolish!

Please re-consider!

Consider these very wise words,

"Let it be remembered, that I do not speak to the wild, giddy, thoughtless world, but to those that fear God.  I ask, then, for what end do you send your children to school?  Why? That they may be fit to live in the world? In which world do you mean, ”” this or the next? Perhaps you thought of this world only; and had forgot that there is a world to come; yea, and one that will last forever! Pray take this into your account, and send them to such masters as will keep it always before their eyes. Otherwise, to send them to [a government] school (permit me to speak plainly) is little better than sending them to the devil. At all events, then, send your children, if you have any concern for their souls, not to any of the large public schools, (for they are nurseries of all manner of wickedness,) but private school, kept by some pious man, who endeavours to instruct a small number of children in religion and learning together.” John Wesley

Out of a graduating class of around 300 I am not sure if any of us made it out unpolluted from our environment,

Many if not most of the school pregnancys where the girls that are pictured praying at the flag pole in our freshman year book and the dads to those pregnancys seem to often be the boys in the same picture.

I carried my Bible around some in high school.
I recall two others that did as well, The one seemed always so joyful, I would ask him : what have you been drinking ? He would respond : I am drunk on that : new wine.
The Last I new he is now a open homosexual

I recall the other one telling me once : I do not pray at the flag pole some of those kids cuss and I do not want to be associated with that kind of hipocracy : The last I seen of him : He appeared to have lost the faith

In comparison I am reminded of many that I have meet from circles such as Charity that have a very high number of home schoolers.

Coming from Public Schooling I did not relieze that such purity existed, I think most people do not relieze it.

edit : clarity

Otherwise, to send them to [a government] school (permit me to speak plainly) is little better than sending them to the devil. At all events, then, send your children, if you have any concern for their souls, not to any of the large public schools, (for they are nurseries of all manner of wickedness,) but private school, kept by some pious man, who endeavours to instruct a small number of children in religion and learning together.” John Wesley

Savannah,

There is no private school kept by some pious man/church/group in my situation. It is a Stepford factory churning out self-loving hypocrites that perpetuate what has already apostasized the American church. The only other ones are Catholic or an IFB school that barely teaches kids how to do do the "three Rs."

With all respect to John Wesley, he did not consider nor know to consider what Christianity in America turned into. Our decision was bathed in prayer, seriously, patiently, openly to whatever God wanted us to do. We took all of these scriptures into consideration. We acted in what we still believe to be obedience to them. The greatest deceit does not rest in the unrighteous world where the distinction between Christ and anti-Christ is still stark; the greatest deceit lies in the apostate church where the truth is merely an ingredient in a recipe of lies and where anti-Christ is worshipped as Christ. We are better equipped to fight the first battle on the school front, and we fight the second battle by gathering at home instead of Sunday brick and mortar church. You may not agree or approve, and I am content to live with that.

"See the thing I find wrong with your posts and articles you share is, they do not have any spirit of Christ in it. A person in ministry who sits at home and lives by ministry money, may find these articles permissible and can even write such crap, as he can happily home school his children while the rest who earn from sweat of the brow get condemned by such articles because they cannot home school. See the thing I find wrong with your posts and articles you share is, they do not have any spirit of Christ in it. A person in ministry who sits at home and lives by ministry money, may find these articles permissible and can even write such crap, as he can happily home school his children while the rest who earn from sweat of the brow get condemned by such articles because they cannot home school. "

Brother Sree, I didn't want to enter this discussion but I must respond . I have respected your posts in the past as very thoughtful. But I must say that to call these articles "crap" seems to also not be the spirit of Christ. I know beyond ANY doubt that God called my husband and I to homeschool our children. My husband worked very hard to enable me to be at home with my children. There are godly and ungodly people who homeschool as there are godly and ungodly people in the public school system. Many of us have fought very hard to gain legislative freedoms to home educate in this country since the 1980s. Many of us have said we would leave this country if those freedoms were taken away. As brother Tim has said, he and his wife sought the Lord who directed them to the school system. But there are those who have been directed to homeschool, and I firmly believe if that is the case, God will provide the means to do so. There is a widowed mom of many children on this forum who has homeschooled her children while having to work. I also know of single fathers who do the same.
No one is attacking you for your choice. Please give respect to those of us who are strongly in favor of homeschooling. It has not been easy, but we are obeying what God has called us to in our individual families.

Brother Sree, I didn't want to enter this discussion but I must respond . I have respected your posts in the past as very thoughtful. But I must say that to call these articles "crap" seems to also not be the spirit of Christ. I know beyond ANY doubt that God called my husband and I to homeschool our children.

Sister I stand by what I have said. Yes this article that calls people to take their children out of public school is a crap because it calls putting in public school as sin. It places legalistic burden on Christians who live by Faith.
Many of you think that such articles will create awareness about public school. I am all in for creating awareness to parents about things done in public school. But this is not creating awareness. May be the moderators here think that this creates awareness. But these articles create condemnation on those who put their children in public school by faith.

I have nothing against home schooling, never have I said any word against it. In fact I have defended homeschooling as well in this thread. I am very thankful for those who fight to retain the rights to home school. If I have an opportunity then I will home school my kids as well.

But there should be respect given to people who decide to put their children in Public school by faith. This article gives no respect. Any pastor or minister who lives by money collected in offering bucket can write such articles calling the public school enrollment as sin. Let such person earn their living by working a job then let them tell about home schooling and public school. Then they will thank God for the grace he gave for home schooling. Instead of boasting about it and bringing down on others.

I find this subject extremely offensive. I am really surprised by lack of discernment that people here have in tolerating these posts.

Brother, I mean no offense in any way. I'm very sorry if you perceive it that way. We cannot be the Holy Spirit in another's life. May God bless you in the raising up of your children - may they be Christ followers!

We learned about drugs early on :
They first gave us Nancy Reagan's "just say no" It was about as effective as an Anheuser Busch campaign against under age drinking or a Philip Morris campaign against under age smoking.

And than they brought us "Dare program" hosted by local cops.

At best such programs simply failed but they seemed to almost have had a reverse effect on many.

The first time I recall smelling marijuana was in the school bathroom.

In the ag classes some of the students would light up marijuana while running the welders.

It was said that some of the football players would mix crank in there chewing tobacco while in a game.

One time while discussing with a football player the possibility of a physical altercation, He told me that he felt that he would win a physical altercation between us because he would sniff some crystal meth first.

It is often propagated that to help keep your children out of trouble you should get them involved in extracurricular activity such as a sport.

A year after I graduated, the school basket ball team got found out to be hooked on meth after some of them had been involved in a burglary and began narking.

It is often propagated that to help keep your children out of trouble you should keep there nose in the books.
For the purpose of deflecting being bullied I spent much time at a local Gym. I recall one time the would become later salutatorian came to the gym to lift weights with us he started talking to me about how he had went to the big city and learned how to sniff aerosal cans.
My thought at the time was what a dummy, and yet this is the kind of thing that the top of the class 'academically speaking' was doing.

I ran into some that I new from school at walmart once they where buying computer clearner I believe they called it huffer.

I was asked by a school acquaintance once if I could drive him to a party that was out in the woods. I ignorantly complied probably motivated by a bit of curiosity. As soon as we arived I realized that this was a bad Idea, A mob made up of mostly high schoolers that I new was taking rocks and destroying a girls car as she was trying to back out to leave they where busting her windows out with rocks and punching her in the face as she was trying to back out. Everyone there seemed completly crazy.
I rather quickly but as nonchalantly as possible left afterward I found out that they all had been using lsd

Do not be deceived: "Bad company ruins good morals.”

The above in not an environment that I feel is good for my children.

Papa, you do know that all of the above happens in the Christian academies with similar frequency, right? Christian schools have drug dealers in their halls, drunks in classrooms, rapists on sports teams, thieves in Bible classes. The chief administrator of the one my daughter attended? His son had a house party with quite a few of the sanctified students emptying beer bottles at his house. He kept his job without a blink.

I am not moved by the notions that Christian schools protect our kids from worldliness. At all. I know way, way better, first hand. My own very close relative graduated from the same school. Only one she ever went to. A-B student. Now in grad school. Sweet enough kid, I guess. No major troubles. Moral as the next person. Claims to know Jesus. As wrapped up in all of the world as she can be, because that school taught her you can have both. I am teaching my daughter that you have to choose. "If you want to reject Christ and love the world, look at all this miserable mess we deal with every single day that we debrief about every single night. You can have it. That what you want? Or, don't you see where the way of Jesus is the only way that makes sense? How will you live to meet Him if you forget about Him and do whatever you want?" I may have to fight that one every day. And, we do. But, what I don't have to fight is this: " I can have the world, the money, the love of things, the love of position, the love of self image and Jesus, too." That is a damnable lie and I don't have to fight that. My daughter is not perfect. But, she is smart. And, she is experiencing the love and faithfulness of God being true and right.

To me, the choice is easy.

RE : /// Papa, you do know that all of the above happens in the Christian academies with similar frequency, right? Christian schools have drug dealers in their halls, drunks in classrooms, rapists on sports teams, thieves in Bible classes. The chief administrator of the one my daughter attended? His son had a house party with quite a few of the sanctified students emptying beer bottles at his house. He kept his job without a blink.///

That might be so.
Have I wrote anything about defending Christian academies ?

I do not even plan on using curriculum in the education of our children.

add : We are convinced of the unschooling philosphey in regards to education. from a christian perspective of course and not a secular perspective as is with many unschoolers.

It almost feels that some are offended by my post on this subject which have basicaly been simply reflecting and presenting the reality that I personally experienced.
My experience was not and is not unusual , so many people I know including myself supress so much of our experiences that took place in the public schools.

The schools are simply a microcosm of society.

Everything is anecdotal. But I went to public schools and never took a sip of alcohol, never took a drug of any kind, never fought, never disrespected teachers, never said a swear word. Sure there were kids that did. The burnouts smoked pot at the bus stop every morning. We thought they were idiots- and they were!

I played baseball and basketball and had amazing experiences in both sports. Some of my fondest memories are on the baseball field in HS.

I hung around with friends who were like me. We were "good boys" from good families and we played sports and did well in school. Then there were the bad boys who played sports and did average in school. We got along with them fine. I guess I was smart enough not to allow them to influence me.

Come to think of it, it was sort of practice for the real world. Imagine that!

Sister, I take no offense at anyone. Feel free to correct me if what I have perceived about of this thread is wrong. I feel strange as most of the godly here always discern the same way as I have. Not sure whether I am missing something here.

On page 2 of this thread I wrote;

This question was sent to numerous God fearing men...

I was wondering if you might furnish me with a
Biblical defense of either the
neutrality,indifference,command,permission/allowance
or otherwise respecting God's will for the christian
to send their children to be educated by
state/government-run institutions where the teachers
and fellow students are for the most part
unbelievers,God-haters,anti-Christ and immoral, where
hypocrisy abounds and the religion of secular humanism promoted.

_____ ____ ____

Would anyone here on SI open the Scriptures and apply them to this issue and address it from His infallible Word. Please handle accurately His Word, and with trembling as well. If it be not according to His Word please refrain.

I also just wanted to share this brief story;

I knew a woman who, after much prayer and fasting, told the congregation that God was directing her to marry a member of the church named Billy. Billy also came forward and confirmed that after much prayer and fasting God was directing him to marry her. Only 2 out of the whole congregation objected, the rest were silent, because they knew Billy and this woman had been fervently praying about this. But Billy's wife and the woman's husband were never persuaded, even after the marriage took place.

To my knowledge public schools are not mentioned in scripture. But Jesus talked about "the world" in general:

John 17:15-19 "I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth."

Sree- you are not wrong in your perception. Calling parents who send their kids to public school "sinners" is the height of prideful judgmentalism.

We can debate the wisdom of doing so; we have seen the pros and cons of both sides in this thread. Good points have been made on both sides.

But for one side to call the other side "sinners" is ridiculous in the extreme.

I spoke in another similar thread on an young boy who gave himself to Jesus after being influenced by his believer friend in public school.

I want to share how much I long for a faithful witness in my school days. I always had a good external testimony though I was never raised in a Christian family. All my teachers were very impressed of me because I was very good in both studies and manners. But internally I too involved in the sins that my friends indulged in, but only in secret. I knew that God hates these actions of mine though I never knew the real God. I used to repent before dumb Hindu Idols but never experiencing the life.

I have written blogs about my internal struggles which now sounds very much like Romans 7 to me. All that time I did not have even one person in my school or college who had different value system. The christian friends whom I had were in much dangerous condition than mine, they even lacked any external testimony.

If I look back at my life now, how different it would have been if I had someone in my class with pure testimony. I would have definitely asked the person why he/she is different, this way they would have told me the Gospel. I wasted first 25 years of my life with this internal logging to know God and without knowing the Gospel.

I am sure I am not the only such child, there should at least few in every public school who knows that God is not happy with them. Now I am not telling that we should stop homeschooling our kids and put them in public schools. Instead do not run away from public school if there is no option for your child. Put there by faith and believe that God can make your child a light in that dark world.

I believe the God who respected my Elder and preserved his son in public school is the same God now. He can do it for our children too. There is nothing wrong in going to public school.

Papa, you didn't write in defense of Christian academies, nor did I object to what you wrote.

It does need to be made clear, it seems on the whole tone of the thread, that while public schools are everything everyone here says they are, Christian schools may not be an option for any number of valid, biblical reasons.

It may be that public schools are the only choice practically available.

In our circumstance, the choice was deliberate, made after a lengthy number of months of reading the Word, praying, discerning, discussing and deciding. We believed then and do believe now that we decided in obediently to God. That in no way vindicates public school environments or curriculum. It just is what it is, and what it is is a tension that is only resolved by walking in the Spirit with Jesus. The press of the public environment is always against Jesus. We can't escape it. We certainly don't embrace it. We walk through it and --- honestly --- intend to condemn the darkness by reflecting the light of the biblical revelation of God in Christ. My desperate hope for my daughter is that she will do exactly that not only in public school but as long as she lives in mortal flesh in this fallen world.

Would anyone here on SI open the Scriptures and apply them to this issue and address it from His infallible Word. Please handle accurately His Word, and with trembling as well. If it be not according to His Word please refrain.

I asked you a question in return to your question in 'Islam and Public school' thread. Please answer when you find time. Even the Pharisees said to Jesus that they did not know when He asked them a question in return! It is not about winning or losing an argument, it is about not spreading a lie.

Do you want a Bible verse that tells putting your Children in secular schools is right? I would say where does it say that such education is wrong? None of the verses you quote is even written in the context of public schooling of Children.

In fact bother Zac Poonen once said that there is really very less teaching on how to raise up Children in the Bible. Such an important topic but very less teaching. The reason being God wants believers to seek his wisdom in this matter as explained in James 1.

I would take the example of Daniel and his friends in Babylon as a Biblical proof. They were schooled by the King of Babylon teaching them the Babylonian ways. Still Daniel and his friends preserved a good testimony. They were never against the teachings of Babylon. They were only against the practices like eating unclean animals and worshiping their statues. As far as I see in Old Covenant there is no better example that Daniel who was schooled by unbelievers and pagan worshipers. He had the purest testimony possible under Old Covenant. Now is this example not Good enough for you?

Is the God who did that to Daniel not the same God today? Can he not preserve our kids? Where is faith here?

Papa,

I hope and pray God blesses your "unschooling". Never heard of it before I googled your use of the word. If what I saw is accurate, your approach is very like Montessori learning. It has a lot going for it, IMO, if done well.

Personally, if I COULD, I'd stay home and homeschool my daughter myself. But, that's really more about ME. :) I love to teach, man. I drive my daughter nuts with it because I basically take her homework and try to do part of the school day over again at night sometimes. I think it is a great thing I do, if I say so myself; not so much her! LOL I am a nerd about learning, though. I am really really interested in how people learn. So, there's that.

I met a pair of teenage girls a few months back at a 4H thing with my daughter. They were homeschooled. What they described about how they do homeschool -- and I talked with their mother -- sounded a lot like what you call "unschooling". Hope it turns out well for yours!!!

Savannah, would you still homeschool your kids if it was punishable by law and you had to go to jail and have your kids forceably removed?

Would you personally call someone who does not homeschool their children a sinner?

Homeschooling legalization came about in the US partly because the Amish where willing to go to jail for not sending there children to the public schools , and they did go to jail for it and when the public found out they where outraged and pressured there legizlation to allow for religious excemption to public schools.

The early home school pioneers in this country like the Pearls where very strongly being threatened by the law over it.

narrowpath,

If a woman who's been raped is guilty of sin, then so are you!

If further clarity is needed please ask, but I think you get it. Absolutely no condemnation toward you, I want that much to be clear.

And to answer your other question...if it were punishable by law I'd very prayerfully consider moving. I'd be on my knees about it until my Lord Jesus answered. I'd fast & pray & fast & pray...and not let go until I passed out. And when rested, I'd start all over again.

Tim,

I appreciate what you wrote to me.

When the wife is subject to her husband, he may be won without a word by Gods Grace to her, not to what the husband has learned without any chance of repentance on his own.

God promised Israel that their children He would save not what the children learned of their fathers or the world.

Who broke through all my sin and resistance to God which is upon all men. It was not a church, school, man or anything else except God Himself did, He gave me to the Son by His Grace and by Him I believed. How can I hear? By the word of God through His men that He has prepared to preach.

A parent can be like the wife who is subject to her husband. No matter where the children turn they may be won by the Grace of God and His influence on them by the subjection of the parent to God and His Son Jesus Christ.

So worldly taught or homeschool taught, it matters not, what matters is God and His promise to the parents, He will bring the children into the obedience to Christ by His Grace and His ability to use all that God is to bring the child into the fold.

How do we bring up a child in the way he should go? By the life he see's in the parent, godly or worldly. The rest is up to God.

This is how God did it in my life and He still works the same way, even in my rebellion of my flesh and my soul/mind trying to rule my own life. Praise God "HE" will finish what He has begun in me and through into my children and through them His Grace the Son of God placed in them who believe.

In Christ: Phillip

proudpapa,

You mentioned John Taylor Gatto, so I thought of you when I read the following;

Once you understand the logic behind modern schooling, its tricks and traps are fairly easy to avoid. School trains children to be employees and consumers; teach your own to be leaders and adventurers. School trains children to obey reflexively; teach your own to think critically and independently. Well-schooled kids have a low threshold for boredom; help your own to develop an inner life so that they'll never be bored. Urge them to take on the serious material, the grown-up material, in history, literature, philosophy, music, art, economics, theology - all the stuff schoolteachers know well enough to avoid. Challenge your kids with plenty of solitude so that they can learn to enjoy their own company, to conduct inner dialogues. Well-schooled people are conditioned to dread being alone, and they seek constant companionship through the TV, the computer, the cell phone, and through shallow friendships quickly acquired and quickly abandoned. Your children should have a more meaningful life, and they can.

First, though, we must wake up to what our schools really are: laboratories of experimentation on young minds, drill centers for the habits and attitudes that corporate society demands. Mandatory education serves children only incidentally; its real purpose is to turn them into servants. Don't let your own have their childhoods extended, not even for a day. If David Farragut could take command of a captured British warship as a preteen, if Thomas Edison could publish a broadsheet at the age of twelve, if Ben Franklin could apprentice himself to a printer at the same age (then put himself through a course of study that would choke a Yale senior today), there's no telling what your own kids could do. After a long life, and thirty years in the public school trenches, I've concluded that genius is as common as dirt. We suppress our genius only because we haven't yet figured out how to manage a population of educated men and women. John Taylor Gatto

thomas edison IQ: 145
Ben Franklin: 160
isaac newton: 190
DaVinci: 220

Genius level: 145 and above

IQ is not learned, and geniuses are not as common as dirt Certain men did great things because they were blessed with high IQ, and, of course, they worked their tails off.

Todd,

How are they determining mens IQ's whom died way before there was IQ testing ?

double post

I wondered the same thing but I haven't googled it yet. I have no reason to think however based on the accomplishments of men like Newton and Davinci that the IQs shown are not accurate.

I suspect that the apostle Paul had a very high IQ; of course he was also filled with the spirit. I would suspect Peter had an average IQ but the HS made up the difference.

I suspect Spurgeon also had a high IQ.

My wife was measured with an IQ of 143 by a psychometrist once. She smoked me. :). Of course, I already know she is sharper than me.

I figure if we tested an aborigine in the outback who designed an efficient trap the likes of which no one ever conceived, he might test quite low. He may also be a leader of people, perceptive of men's ways, and unable to say who Goethe was or to perform calculus.

My point is that even IQ tests are so very biased. They are not trash, useless. But, they are not actual objective measurements of anything absolute, either.

"Surprisingly, little "Al" Edison, who was the last of seven children in his family, did not learn to talk until he was almost four years of age. Immediately thereafter, he began pleading with every adult he met to explain the workings of just about everything he encountered. If they said they didn't know, he would look them straight in the eye with his deeply set and vibrant blue-green eyes and ask them "Why?"..........

"At age seven - after spending 12 weeks in a noisy one-room schoolhouse with 38 other students of ll ages - Tom's overworked and short tempered teacher finally lost his patience with the child's persistent questioning and seemingly self centered behavior. Noting that Tom's forehead was unusually broad and his head was considerably larger than average, he made no secret of his belief that the hyperactive youngster's brains were "addled" or scrambled.

If modern psychology had existed back then, Tom would have probably been deemed a victim of ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder) and proscribed a hefty dose of the "miracle drug" Ritalin. Instead, when his beloved mother - whom he recalled "was the making of me... [because] she was always so true and so sure of me... And always made me feel I had someone to live for and must not disappoint." - became aware of the situation, she promptly withdrew him from school and began to "home-teach" him. Not surprisingly, she was convinced her son's slightly unusual demeanor and physical appearance were merely outward signs of his remarkable intelligence."..........

http://www.thomasedison.com/biography.html

edit add : Edison's early childhood is a prime example of how unschooling works.

For John Taylor Gatto The Modern Schooling system is delibertly preventing the Thomas Edisons of our day from reaching there full potential and this is not by accident but as Gatto has done extensive research it was intentionally designed by the social engineers such as Rockefeller, Carnegie and others for that purpose, So as to prevent over production while at the same time creating an obedient work force. (edit : clarity)

"...Mass schooling of a compulsory nature really got its teeth into the United States between 1905 and 1915, though it was conceived of much earlier and pushed for throughout most of the nineteenth century. The reason given for this enormous upheaval of family life and cultural traditions was, roughly speaking, threefold:
1) To make good people.
2) To make good citizens.
3) To make each person his or her personal best.

These goals are still trotted out today on a regular basis, and most of us accept them in one form or another as a decent definition of public education's mission, however short schools actually fall in achieving them. But we are dead wrong. Compounding our error is the fact that the national literature holds numerous and surprisingly consistent statements of compulsory schooling's true purpose. We have, for example, the great H. L. Mencken, who wrote in The American Mercury for April 1924 that the aim of public education is not

to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence. . . . Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim.. . is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States . . . and that is its aim everywhere else.

Because of Mencken's reputation as a satirist, we might be tempted to dismiss this passage as a bit of hyperbolic sarcasm. His article, however, goes on to trace the template for our own educational system back to the now vanished, though never to be forgotten, military state of Prussia. And although he was certainly aware of the irony that we had recently been at war with Germany, the heir to Prussian thought and culture, Mencken was being perfectly serious here. Our educational system really is Prussian in origin, and that really is cause for concern.

The odd fact of a Prussian provenance for our schools pops up again and again once you know to look for it. William James alluded to it many times at the turn of the century. Orestes Brownson, the hero of Christopher Lasch's 1991 book, The True and Only Heaven, was publicly denouncing the Prussianization of American schools back in the 1840s. Horace Mann's "Seventh Annual Report" to the Massachusetts State Board of Education in 1843 is essentially a paean to the land of Frederick the Great and a call for its schooling to be brought here. That Prussian culture loomed large in America is hardly surprising, given our early association with that utopian state. A Prussian served as Washington's aide during the Revolutionary War, and so many German- speaking people had settled here by 1795 that Congress considered publishing a German-language edition of the federal laws. But what shocks is that we should so eagerly have adopted one of the very worst aspects of Prussian culture: an educational system deliberately designed to produce mediocre intellects, to hamstring the inner life, to deny students appreciable leadership skills, and to ensure docile and incomplete citizens - all in order to render the populace "manageable."

It was from James Bryant Conant - president of Harvard for twenty years, WWI poison-gas specialist, WWII executive on the atomic-bomb project, high commissioner of the American zone in Germany after WWII, and truly one of the most influential figures of the twentieth century - that I first got wind of the real purposes of American schooling. Without Conant, we would probably not have the same style and degree of standardized testing that we enjoy today, nor would we be blessed with gargantuan high schools that warehouse 2,000 to 4,000 students at a time, like the famous Columbine High in Littleton, Colorado. Shortly after I retired from teaching I picked up Conant's 1959 book-length essay, The Child the Parent and the State, and was more than a little intrigued to see him mention in passing that the modern schools we attend were the result of a "revolution" engineered between 1905 and 1930. A revolution? He declines to elaborate, but he does direct the curious and the uninformed to Alexander Inglis's 1918 book, Principles of Secondary Education, in which "one saw this revolution through the eyes of a revolutionary."

Inglis, for whom a lecture in education at Harvard is named, makes it perfectly clear that compulsory schooling on this continent was intended to be just what it had been for Prussia in the 1820s: a fifth column into the burgeoning democratic movement that threatened to give the peasants and the proletarians a voice at the bargaining table. Modern, industrialized, compulsory schooling was to make a sort of surgical incision into the prospective unity of these underclasses. Divide children by subject, by age-grading, by constant rankings on tests, and by many other more subtle means, and it was unlikely that the ignorant mass of mankind, separated in childhood, would ever reintegrate into a dangerous whole.

Inglis breaks down the purpose - the actual purpose - of modem schooling into six basic functions, any one of which is enough to curl the hair of those innocent enough to believe the three traditional goals listed earlier:

1) The adjustive or adaptive function. Schools are to establish fixed habits of reaction to authority. This, of course, precludes critical judgment completely. It also pretty much destroys the idea that useful or interesting material should be taught, because you can't test for reflexive obedience until you know whether you can make kids learn, and do, foolish and boring things.

2) The integrating function. This might well be called "the conformity function," because its intention is to make children as alike as possible. People who conform are predictable, and this is of great use to those who wish to harness and manipulate a large labor force.

3) The diagnostic and directive function. School is meant to determine each student's proper social role. This is done by logging evidence mathematically and anecdotally on cumulative records. As in "your permanent record." Yes, you do have one.

4) The differentiating function. Once their social role has been "diagnosed," children are to be sorted by role and trained only so far as their destination in the social machine merits - and not one step further. So much for making kids their personal best.

5) The selective function. This refers not to human choice at all but to Darwin's theory of natural selection as applied to what he called "the favored races." In short, the idea is to help things along by consciously attempting to improve the breeding stock. Schools are meant to tag the unfit - with poor grades, remedial placement, and other punishments - clearly enough that their peers will accept them as inferior and effectively bar them from the reproductive sweepstakes. That's what all those little humiliations from first grade onward were intended to do: wash the dirt down the drain.

6) The propaedeutic function. The societal system implied by these rules will require an elite group of caretakers. To that end, a small fraction of the kids will quietly be taught how to manage this continuing project, how to watch over and control a population deliberately dumbed down and declawed in order that government might proceed unchallenged and corporations might never want for obedient labor.

That, unfortunately, is the purpose of mandatory public education in this country. And lest you take Inglis for an isolated crank with a rather too cynical take on the educational enterprise, you should know that he was hardly alone in championing these ideas. Conant himself, building on the ideas of Horace Mann and others, campaigned tirelessly for an American school system designed along the same lines. Men like George Peabody, who funded the cause of mandatory schooling throughout the South, surely understood that the Prussian system was useful in creating not only a harmless electorate and a servile labor force but also a virtual herd of mindless consumers. In time a great number of industrial titans came to recognize the enormous profits to be had by cultivating and tending just such a herd via public education, among them Andrew Carnegie and John D. Rockefeller............"
read more at : http://www.wesjones.com/gatto1.htm

I cannot imagine what society would be like if there had never been public schools. Shudder the thought.

It would probably be something like what we witnessed in Charlotte a couple of nights ago, but all the time everywhere.

It would be a society in which the parents would be responsible for the raising of there own children instead of the society that we have that is relient on a government sponserd tax payer funded baby sitter.
(Public Schools are a welfare program that cost tax payers on avarege $10,000 a year per child)

I live in a poor part of the country and the Gov. gives our schools $7,000 a year per child.
With 5 kids that totals $35,000 a year : so k-12 totals $ 455,000
I will be saving the tax payers of this country almost a half million dollars by taking on the responsibility of there education myself.
(it will be much more cause the price will increase in 13 years)

Because of the public school system : We have a society that is adapted to both parents working a full time job. Which in turn makes it more difficult for families like my own who do not.
The Coed Work place is a major cause of situations like what happened between my 2nd grade teacher and elementary
school principle. both where married with children, but not to each other and than all of the sudden they both resigned there jobs and there children became each other brothers and sisters.

but people that have no education systems seem to be savages.

You are describing a Utopia PP. Nothing wrong with dreaming, but do you really think every family would properly educate their children? The great majority do not even help their kids with their homework.

TMK say,

"...do you really think every family would properly educate their children?"

No. But it is not within the jurisdiction of government to educate children.

Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars...

Government gets bigger and bigger, like the old movie "The Blob." And the people love it so!

Until the whole city is swallowed up by "The Blob."

The prophets prophesy lies. The priests exercise power by their own authority. And my people love to have it so. But they will not be able to help you when the time of judgment comes! Jeremiah 5:31

i cant tell if you are advocating that children should not be educated.

Even if you take Christians out of that equation, there are non-Christians that need to learn to read and write.

TMK say,

"i cant tell if you are advocating that children should not be educated."

You can't tell! You must have gone to the government school!

Read my simple post again, without reading into it.

Tell me TMK, has God ordained (appointed) government to educate children or has He not?

No rabbit trails please!

Thanks.

Before compulsory education Sunday Schools served as 'literally schools: they were places were poor children could learn to read'

Christianity gave up providing for the poor to the governments
and it gave up literacy training to the governments.
And now the Government is the influential force of both of these
and Christianity has lost a great deal of its influence .

edit add :

RE : ///but people that have no education systems seem to be savages.///

Where there is no Gospel influence men are savages regardless of them having an education system or not

edit add : Where men are more schooled in the natural they seem to be less open to the supernatural.