Can God give what He does not have?

I read a quote today that said "God cannot give what He does not have."

Thoughts?

....and neither can we

What is it that God does not have? This is crazy. If God does not have it all He has to do is speak and it is His.
God is all and in all. He is Omni everything. I am Omni nothing.

Philip-

The context of the quote I read was in regard to sickness; I.e. God does not make people sick because He has no sickness to give.

Obviously there are other things that God does not have- eg, sin, injustice.

Todd, that is just not biblical reasoning. There are numerous examples in the bible where God puts sickness on a person as judgement. For one example in Revelation Jesus says He will cast Jezebel and her children (followers) on a bed of sickness.

God detroys the wicked with death, but He has no death in Him! Life and death are in His hand though, so is sickness if need be, even if He himself is not sick He has it to give!

God is the Judge of all, but He himself is not judged. Get the picture? He does not have to be subject to something in order to control it.

Amen, Heydave.

"Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”
~ 2 Chronicles 18:22

I don't disagree-I suspect the source of the quote would argue that God doesn't make people sick- that He leaves demons to do it, or people's own foolishness. The same would go with death, etc.

Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness - It was the great principle of the Magian religion, which prevailed in Persia in the time of Cyrus, and in which probably he was educated, that there are two supreme, co-eternal, and independent causes always acting in opposition one to the other; one the author of all good, the other of all evil. The good being they called Light; the evil being, Darkness. That when Light had the ascendant, then good and happtness prevailed among men; when Darkness had the superiority, then eviI and misery abounded. An opinion that contradicts the clearest evidence of our reason, which plainly leads us to the acknowledgment of one only Supreme Being, infinitely good as well as powerful. With reference to this absurd opinion, held by the person to whom this prophecy is addressed, God, by his prophet, in the most significant terms, asserts his omnipotence and absolute supremacy: -

"I am Jehovah, and none else;

Forming light, and creating darkness,

Making peace, and creating evil:

I Jehovah am the author of all these things."

Declaring that those powers whom the Persians held to be the original authors of good and evil to mankind, representing them by light and darkness, as their proper emblems, are no other than creatures of God, the instruments which he employs in his government of the world, ordained or permitted by him in order to execute his wise and just decrees; and that there is no power, either of good or evil, independent of the one supreme God, infinite in power and in goodness.

God is not evil, God is not darkness, but evil and darkness would not exist without His supreme power over all things.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

This particular evil is war, which is not light but darkness and certainly not peace.

In Christ: Phillip

Philip-

Do you believe that God really creates evil, whatever form it may take?

I would add that darkness is not a "thing" to be created so obviously the verse is poetic to some degree.

I guess that depends on what evil we are speaking of. All the plagues in Egypt to what end, are they evil or are they just forms of poetic creation. God created Satan, knowing what he would become, where does that put Isa 45: 7. If God is God and He created all things, then evil is part of all things as is darkness and light.

How could the Goodness of God be proved without evil. These are all questions that different people answer in different ways. I believe what happens with God is in His hand to reveal or not reveal to whom He wants in His timing, place as in 1 Corinthians 1:30 But ye are of Him in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption,

Are all wise, all righteous, all sanctified all redeemed?

What is the evil of wisdom, righteousness etc.

I am not willing to prove you wrong or me right, this is my spirit and soul understanding of who God is. I pray that God make right understanding and truth in us to His ways.

In Christ: Phillip

Quote: "I am not willing to prove you wrong or me right"

Me neither; just discussing.

I just thought it was a pretty common traditional understanding that God is not the author of evil.

A person could say that he created the devil (as you pointed out) and people, knowing that they would sin, and therefore he is the author of evil.

I think that is going one step too far; although logically I can understand why someone would think that.

I think it is important that we not attribute things to God that impugn His character, whatever those things might be. For example, I have a very hard time understanding why God would kill David's son to teach David a lesson. I am not saying I do not accept it- merely that I have a hard time understanding it.

Amen, yes sometimes God's ways for me are hard to understand or accept. Since I am just a clay pot in the scheme of the things of God, I must bow to His authority and majesty over me. I will agree, God is not evil, all goodness dwells in Him. If evil is separate from God then their must be another equal to God that creates evil. I know that this is not true.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi brothers,

This stuff is deep :)

James 1:13-16 - A man must not say when he is tempted, "God is tempting me." For God has no dealings with evil, and does not himself tempt anyone. No, a man's temptation is due to the pull of his own inward desires, which can be enormously attractive. His own desire takes hold of him, and that produces sin. And sin in the long run means death - make no mistake about that, brothers of mine!

We are touching on the "mystery of iniquity" here? God created Lucifer. Somehow Lucifer was lifted up in his own heart through pride, thus sinned against God and was cast down and brought his evil, iniquitous heart and breath to man and to this world.

It is not told or explained how that was possible, just that it happened.

God can and will use evil men to execute His judgement etc., does not mean He created evil...

I think more thought from our wise brethren could be helpful here :)

Blessings,

A couple of quick points....

Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Why is it that we can't/don't give the lame (any diseased person) or lost person what Peter did?

Also because God (the Father) spoke the world into being, the nature of reality is syntactical.... Jesus is the word which became flesh and everything that was created was created by/through Him. Scriptures twice declare that the universe cannot contain Him.... yet they also declare that the worlds are framed by His word (Jesus)...
So to quote Ravenhill: "God has not merely given us Jesus Christ,..He has given us ALL THINGS in and through Him!"

wether a thing is pure/holy is a matter of perspective... Titus 1:15
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

So wether- Gods actions of "sending forth a lying spirit", "hardening Pharaohs heart and sending plagues", or "sending a strong delusion" etc,... is good/bad is ultimately a matter of perspective and according to (my understanding) Titus 1:15 makes it clear that how we view Gods actions is a direct reflection of our disposition relating to His Word/Son and as such wether we are truly His.

Indeed Bear- we are supposed to have the faith of a child but that is difficult for me. If I did, things would be a lot simpler and clearer.

I tend to agree with you Mark- pretty strongly in fact- but there are some troublesome passages like Heydave brought up earlier, and the story I brought up about God seemingly killing David's son from Bathsheba in order to punish David.

I suspect, that while scripture is indeed inspired, that all scripture does not tell the whole story but is told from the perspective of those doing the writing.

Todd,
The statement made by Mark "people believe what they want to believe" ironically can be applied to your position here.
In just two of the clear biblical examples you quote you say they only 'appear' to say what they say. That seems to be a very biased position.
In fact there are soo many places where scripture talks about God inflicting people with sickness, death and even tormenting judgement, that to give chapter and verse seems unecessary. You just need to read the bible.

Do I believe that any sickness that I or someone I know may get is always from God? No I don't. But that was not the original statement posted. You said "God CANNOT give anyone sickness because He has none to give". It is this that is absolutely at odds with the scriptural record. So if we hold scripture above 'what we just want to believe' we have accept God can and does use sickness whether we understand it, like it or not.

Mark wrote: "I will go to my grave believing that...".

That is so funny! :) Why will you go to the grave? Could it be that it is God's decree on all men because of sin??

The issue I suppose is whether God's turning the earth over to Satan at the fall, and the resulting sickness and death, means that all sickness and death is from God.

I think there is a separation. There was no sickness and death in Eden before the Fall. That was God's will and intention.

When the Fall happened, God needed an enforcer of its effects, which is where satan comes in. There is little doubt that God has use of a devil; otherwise he would not still be around.

That is not to say that God is therefore the author of sickness and death.

In passages which suggest God is visiting sickness and death on someone, it can also be interpreted that he is letting the devil do his (the devil's) work.

Jesus interrupted this work. Since Jesus is the exact representation of the Father, then the Father also wanted the work of sickness and death interrupted.

I think it must always be our default position that sickness and death- in particular premature death- is the work of the devil and must therefore be combatted.

Then, we can pray strong faith-filled prayers rather than the mamby-pamby mealy-mouthed faithless sorts of prayers that Mark references (e.g., "please heal so and so but only if You really feel like it and only if it is your will because if so and so isn't healed then I can simply blame it on You and not my lack of faith.").

Fletcher wrote: "Why is it that we can't/don't give the lame (any diseased person) or lost person what Peter did?"

Apparently because we don't have what Peter had.

Ha!
And that my dear brother is the problem:/

Or.......we have it...but don't use it...?

Touché bother William-

Tho if that be the case, why would one not use it?

Or we have it and don't know how, or we have it and for some reason we are disqualified.

I say this latter part with some trepidation because some of the most amazing things I have seen were done by Christians who were "rough around the edges" for lack of a better term. But they loved the Lord and loved people and were bold in faith. If personal holiness is a disqualifier it did not disqualify them.

Yes and I've witnessed the same-

Could it be.... belief?
Perhaps they (the rough round the edges as well as Peter) didn't get entangled in theological arguments and spent themselves on Christ instead, not being concerned with much other than Him being glorified/magnified ?

No condemnation intended,brothers...in case you're wondering 🙂

I have used the Name of Jesus and faith in that Name on occasion and have seen some wonderful things, especially in my earlier years. That is what Peter said they had: the Name and faith in that Name.

As one pastor said when someone told him God never used them to heal anyone: " How many people have you prayed for?"

Although I believe the Lord may gift certain individuals with specific gifts and anointings for healings and miracles etc. I also think many believers are not taught the authority they have in Jesus Name and never activate their faith.

We're going into other waters than the OP I know......

Quote: I also think many believers are not taught the authority they have in Jesus Name and never activate their faith.

I agree 100%.

As far as the "other waters" go - let them lead where they may!

Yeah its like they (newborn believers) seem to have a better focus on Christ and Him alone... and as they grow in knowledge the focus seems to shift and (in my experience) allot of times there are fewer instances where they/we are giving what was received from Holy Spirit and more likely to get entangled in theological quandaries whereas when first reborn that (theology) is less important and staying in step with the spirit consumes their attention....

Have you brothers seen or experienced similar shifts?

Absolutely yes.

That's why we need revival from time to time.

Also it seems when we are newborns we are still in awe at what God has been able to do in us and our enthusiasm to share it is fresh and sincere. Because of the amazing aspect of His grace and our new found access to it we seem more likely to believe anything is possible for God to do and so with a child like faith we look for Him to do it believing He can and will. "For if He can transform us (on a personal level) from darkness to light then surely He can do the same and more for you" is the general disposition of the freshly reborn saint.

I believe that (enthusiastic child like expectancy) faith, that belief in Gods ability, based on our own personal experience, is what Peter had and what Peter gave to the lame man. A certain Joy based on the fact, God can fix it, God will fix it, and the belief that He in fact already has (through the finished work of the cross) fixed it and we become partakers of His divine nature through faith.

Is this consistent with your understanding or have I totally missed it?

Hi Fletcher-

I tend to agree with you.

However, there is still some mystery because it doesn't work every time.

Scripture tells us about the times that the apostles healed someone in Jesus' name, but there are occasions when they did not. I am not sure why this is because scripture does not say exactly why. Perhaps as more time elapsed from when the apostles received the Baptism of the HS, their effectiveness lessened. I don't know.

Even so, I believe your summary is solid and encouraging.

Hey brothers,

We must remember that the disciples ( later specifically called apostles )
lived and walked with Jesus for three years, the greatest " bible school " in the world, still unmatched.
They were called by Him, taught by Him, authorized by Him, sent by Him with very specific instructions.
They knew exactly what they were called to do and once they received the Holy Spirit and attending power, they knew how to use it in Jesus Name and for the kingdom.
Most of us are taught in a specific type of church and school of faith which does not come up to Jesus standards in most cases.
If we want to see the same kind of results they saw ( with the same persecution ) we need to make the same consecration, enter the school of the Spirit, wait on His instructions and follow Him where He leads.
As we obey Him implicitly we will certainly find He still empowers believers to do the works of Jesus, in Jesus Name, for Jesus sake.

Blessings,

Brother Todd,

Yes I'd noticed that healing wasn't always a given and that sometimes wasn't offered,... perhaps they only acted by direction of Holy Spirit?
Tho on the flip side, just a handkerchief or even Peter's shadow was enough for many to be physically restored so it seems in those cases to be a matter of the faith of the recipient?

As for the "lessening over time",... that brings to mind (in Acts)how Peter and John delegated the tasks of management to be able to spend more time in prayer- perhaps this was to address that issue?
Also it occurred to me that these miracles took place over a long period of time and as such I wonder if I'm not measuring our daily experiences against the hilites of the apostles and that's why it seems so disproportionate...?

Brother William,

Yes that's more what I was initially trying to convey... we (generally) seem to miss the context of the authority we've been intrusted with, and I think you are correct in that it's how we were "taught" by our respective churches/denominations at least in part,... but it's a shame- it's almost as if (in this case) that our being taught actually lessens the expectation of Gods supernatural provision/intervention...

As for your findings and remedy,... I whole heartedly agree and believe that more than most else to be the heart of the matter-