Is the practice of "looking for a good church" even scriptural???

The best church is the one I am visiting or gonna visit and the worst one is the one I am at or the one I just left. Right?

IDK the answer. I do know we are in a mess. It seems to me there is no local Sunday brick and mortar church that has a clue.

Hey brothers,

We are members of Christ's spiritual body, over which He is head and from Whom every joint is supplied and from that supply of grace can supply in the needs of others ( can minister )

Being a member of a congregation of believers does not make you a believer.
Being a member of Christ does not necessarily mean you will or should be a member of a congregation, knowing the days we are in.

What I would say and encourage all of us to do, is: " do not forsake the gathering together of the saints", whatever form that gathering may take, local congregations,home meetings, two or three in a coffee shop.....
so that we can benefit from the mutual encouragement received from the saints and also fulfil our ministry to one another.

Blessings,

Hey brothers,

We are members of Christ's spiritual body, over which He is head and from Whom every joint is supplied and from that supply of grace can supply in the needs of others ( can minister )

Being a member of a congregation of believers does not make you a believer.
Being a member of Christ does not necessarily mean you will or should be a member of a congregation, knowing the days we are in.

What I would say and encourage all of us to do, is: " do not forsake the gathering together of the saints", whatever form that gathering may take, local congregations,home meetings, two or three in a coffee shop.....
so that we can benefit from the mutual encouragement received from the saints and also fulfil our ministry to one another.

Blessings,

There are a lot of good churches, and unfortunately there are a lot of churches that are not so good. But God places us in the body where He desires us to be. If you are serious about obeying God, you will pray and ask Him where He desires you to fellowship, and I guarantee that assignment will be a good church. If you are where God wants you to be, and if you are determined to stay there, no matter what, until He tells you to leave, you will grow into maturity as a believer and become a pillar in the house of the Lord. But all of this is predicated on the idea that we are seeking after God and not our own desires.

by awakened
Is it even something God is wanting believers to do...to "find a healthy church"? Or should they just sit tight and wait for one to magically appear in their living room:-)

Most people do find freedom in their living rooms worshiping God and at the kitchen table studying the Word of God!! I know I have.

by awakened
I get the impression that a lot of wonderful believers are currently "unchurched" and again that is probably a terrible word to use from a theological standpoint.

Barna continued in the quote, "Yet the startling truth is that many of these people claim they are looking for a genuine, powerful encounter with God””but they just don’t find it in church."

Another great question to ask pastors is why many Christians think they can't have a genuine and powerful encounter with God in a church where they're supposed to have it??!! It's a sad state of affairs in the American church today.

God bless you, didn't mean to get on my soapbox!! LOL

To my understanding we're not called to "go to church" that phrase doesn't even make sense thinking of what (more properly "who")"the church" is.
What we're called to do is gather together in His name, under His headship as brethren. The biblical example for that is with the ecclesia in our local area.

It depends on what people mean when they say "We are looking for a good church", but the un-presumptuous response would be, i think, is to assume they are looking for a "place to fellowship and gather in His name."

I think we can easily project our own experiences into hard lines and sweeping statements towards the church and how we gather. For instance, if I live in a certain town, in a certain part of the country, and I have had bad experiences in fellowship, been hurt or wounded, witnessed leaders fall, churches split etc, then I might say "the church is corrupt everywhere" and now "house church is the only way from here on out". But that certainly is not the case with everyone, and it's more of a reactive decision rather than a Biblical one. It's very easy to slip into the mindset of "all churches are corrupt, or shallow, or under bad or man-centered leadership" but this is an unhealthy view. It polarizes and forms barriers in your heart, and you begin to view the hidden church as the elite, true, undefiled church, while all those shallow people who "attend church or go to church" in "Buildings" don't understand the new testament model". This I think is a slippery slope that we need to beware of. Jesus died for His Church, and we are Brethren together.

My family is actively becoming involved with a local church that has a building and it has been one of the biggest blessings to us in a long time. We wandered for a couple years after going out from a church that we were serving at for 10 years and it has been the hardest thing we have gone through. But it's so neat what the Lord is doing now in our lives. Our kids love sunday mornings at church, and the wednesday Bible club. I love the ministry to the men and am seeing discipleship take place actively in the men of the church. The women are doing the same. There is even a ministry that meets to encourages mom's in their calling, just like it says in Titus 2. There are conferences on creation, apologetics and prophecy all to equip and teach the body here in town. All of this happening in a local church, with a facility that can facilitate these different "gatherings in His name".

So, to answer your original question. YES, one should take the scriptures and carefully pray through as you move into a new fellowship, whether you were transferred in the military, moving to a new location for work or other reasons, or simply being called out of the fellowship you are in. Consider the leadership structure, examine the fruit, listen to the Word online if possible - test all things. Be vulnerable, be willing to extend yourself and serve others - it's not about me!

In His love,

Thank you brother for your response. I didn't think you were giving that impression, I was sharing some of my observations and experiences also and what I have witnessed. Yes, I think it is always good to keep our hearts hungry for the authentic, Christ-centered Biblical expression of the Church, and fight and contend in our own lives and sphere not to allow ourselves to settle into ritual, coldness or "going through the motions". Revelation 2-3 is evidence that the church can easily go adrift and need to be rebuked and called back to authenticity by her Head, the Lord Jesus. This is why we are so desperate and in need of His indwelling, incarnate life beating through us in our gatherings, our praying, our preaching and our fellowship. Unless we remain utterly hopeless towards ourselves and utterly dependent on him, we will (either as a formal group in a building our home fellowship setting) become cold, jaded, lifeless and drift away from the Biblical body organism as seen in scripture into another sanhedrin filled with dead men's bones.

Knitted together as joints and ligaments,

...then my question is this: how many are truly filled with the Spirit?

I think this is a very good point William has brought up.

Like Kevin said the actual meeting place is not the issue - although from my experience and in my opinion owning property, building buildings and having "paid staff" bring unnecessary distractions - what is important is that we are the Body of Christ, the Ecclesia meeting together in His name - it's not a meeting to invite the world to. And from scripture shouldn't we all be "filled with the Spirit"?

Another point -I live in Australia and maybe it's different here than where you are but people here (again, my experience) want to know "who's the leader" it's like there looking to a man. I believe we're to look to Jesus as the Leader in our meetings - if He's the Head surely He's the Leader.

"But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. "Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. "But the greatest among you shall be your servant. "Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
Matt 23:8-12

Thanks for the conversation brethren

By the way Awakened - What's your name? :-)

Another point -I live in Australia and maybe it's different here than where you are but people here (again, my experience) want to know "who's the leader" it's like there looking to a man. I believe we're to look to Jesus as the Leader in our meetings - if He's the Head surely He's the Leader.

We are definitely to look to Jesus as the leader in our meetings (the mind of the Lord!)and follow the Holy Spirit's leading!

God bless,
Lisa

HI Awakened,

Simply an observation based on your quote from Kevin's post:
"...in need of His indwelling, incarnate life beating through us in our gatherings, our praying, our preaching and our fellowship. Unless we remain utterly hopeless towards ourselves and utterly dependent on him..."

...that that should be the identifying mark of any truly Spirit filled and Spirit led company of believers.

Blessings,

Excellent question. I have not read any of the other posts in this thread, so forgive me if I give the same point.

I have this burden also about so many people who are unchurched. If anyone is a believer in Jesus but not part of any local Church, then he has MISSED the purpose of Jesus on this earth. I am not saying they are lost and going to hell. But they have missed the primary purpose of their salvation which is to be part of body of Christ, entire chapter 4 of Ephesians is not applicable to them. Even those who are just church goers on Sundays but do not play an active role in the building of Body of Jesus in their locality are part of this lost people, who have fallen of their real purpose. I will tell this boldly no matter how much holy these people think they are. They are lost.

Now to the point why they are not part of any Church to me is they are too proud to fellowship with imperfect believers. Let me tell you NO Church is perfect. I am part of a local fellowship in Dallas Tx, where we are completely Biblical and free of any institutional traditions of Church. But to be part of my body, the people have to fellowship with imperfect people like me. Which many do not want. They would rather keep moving from Church to Church like how Cain was a wonderer in Genesis. This to me is a curse on them due to their pride.

The real thing that is needed to be in a Church is presence of God. I tell my Church brothers and sisters that if they find that God is not in our midst then they are free to leave the Church. But if they left because we are not of same race as them or color as them or belief of them (in certain theological stand) then they have missed God's purpose (the second part I do not tell openly). The reason many are wonderers is because God's presence in a Church is least priority to them. To them common theological understanding or skin color is more important.

The people in Laodicea Church kept staying int the Church, but Jesus was outside the Church knocking the door. Many Church goers who go to institutional Churches that follow traditions of men like public collection of offering, announcing the offering amount in public etc, hold traditions above God's word. Most of the Churches, Jesus is standing outside, not because of external traditions but because they value traditions more than Word of God. [ I do not judge people by their practices or traditions.]

I really wonder how many who consider themselves Holy sit in such Church. If Jesus is not inside the Church then why should someone be inside it?

Okay I had debated whether or not to share this but I guess I will...

When I was about 26 years old I got the opportunity to spend a little time with a missionary in Old Mexico. I remember as we set out there were 3 of us the missionary, a brother, and myself. We could only drive so far and then we had to walk the rest of the way. There were no houses in sight. At a certain point the missionary stopped, opened the hymn book and we started singing "Are you washed in the blood”. As we stood there singing, out of no where people began to gather. To this day I remember one older gentleman as he was walking up to the group, he removed his hat in reverence to God. He did this with such a spirit of humility that it blessed me. Even thinking about it now still blesses me. As we sang, them in Spanish and us in English there was a spirit of unity. It was so beautiful that it was like something other worldly. I wish I could describe to you the oneness but I don't really know how to explain it except it was Jesus...just Jesus. He was the only one being lifted up and our hearts were fixed on Him.

All this happened on the side of a mountain. What I can tell you as a person who the Holy Spirit led out of the religious system is that I've never felt "dismembered”. As a matter of fact not only am I "whole” I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am where I'm supposed to be. It's a beautiful thing. On the other hand when I was in the religious system I kept feeling like something was wrong but I just couldn't put my finger on it. I had one experience after another where I walked into a church and knew something wasn't right. Only to turn around and find out what I was discerning was correct. There were times I would get physically sick. It was so bad that on some occasions I would feel the Holy Spirit weeping. After all that I still stayed. I stayed for 18 years because I thought something was wrong with me, only to find out it wasn't me. So it was no small thing when I did leave but I left in peace with understanding. I have no regrets and I'm not lost.

I think some people still don't understand that it's in the Spirit. There are no substitutes for the Holy Spirit - none. I've noticed how some people talk like their only options are "go to church” or a house church but that's not true. Before I left the religious system, in the natural I had to move. Turns out under the direction of the Holy Spirit, I moved into a community of Saints! I never saw that coming but God is good! He knew what I needed before I needed it. So He put me in a safe place. Also God has taught me how to engage people when I'm out and about. I have had some of the funniest encounters and most wonderful fellowship with saints I've met on the fly. I found out if you just talk about Jesus, you will encounter either a saint or a sinner. That's the way it is. It's one or the other. So "looking for a good church” could be a symptom of a bigger issue. The real issue might be whether or not they are actually out there sharing Christ. At least that's how I meet saints ”“ fishing. I throw out my line and see who bites! So I think it's important to not make assumptions about what godly fellowship is. Surrender everything in faith with thanksgiving to the Lord in prayer and keep things simple. They should go fishing...

Thanks Jasmine for your honest sharing, I really appreciate it. Would you mind sharing a bit more about the "community of saints" you've moved into?

Amen Jasmine.
Wonderful testimony.

It appears that some here think that if they happen to meet with some fellow believers once a week they are part of a church. To be in a church is not about only encouraging one another. There needs to be a commitment to meet. For example Paul compares church to a body of Christ. In a body the organs are committed to work with one another for functioning of body. Believers to be acknowledged as a church needs to have this commitment to meet regularly to function together as a church. Just randomly meeting some saints here and there and feeling connected with them does not represent a church. It is a gathering and I am sure Lord is present if they meet in one spirit but it is not a church.

A man and women meeting often or involving in intimate relationship does not constitute a marriage. It is the covenant and commitment that they enter with each other is what defines and approves them as a married couple. Same commitment is also needed to be called a church. The organs are not losing connected in a body.

The reason while many here blame religious institutions and remain as wanderers but are content with such gathering is they are too proud to be committed to a group of belivers. It is like being single and dating multiple women is easier than living with one women all life.

I do agree with you brother that there are some like this but I think it is a rash generalization for us to suggest that those who no longer "go to church" are merely spiritually proud.

I did not say ALL who are non church goers are proud. I only said MANY are. There MAY be very FEW who genuinely searched to find a Church but cannot find one in their locality, while God is still working to bring them with other believers.
But I cannot believe that so many non church goers will have genuine burden for attending a Church but God did not care to provide them one. I am not ARROGANT enough to blame God.

Do you think God who purposed them to be part of His Body in a locality will not provide them one? If there is no such Church in their locality then God would have united them to another fellow brother or sister to start one (provided they had genuine burden). I do not believe God will isolate a genuinely born again believer to be The Only genuine believer in a locality and not make them meet anyone to fellowship with. It is fine if they are in a lost island or continent to Serve God as a Missionaryf. In all other cases, this does not happen in New Covenant. It only in Old Covenant were great Prophets of God always worked alone without any fellowship.

When Apostle Paul was alone, he genuinely prayed for fellowship with brothers and he was so thankful whenever he found much younger Timothy or Silas come to him. If he was proud to fellowship with younger and probably lesser in spiritual walk like Timothy and Silas then he would have remained alone like the Old Covenant Prophets.

I already explained clearly in my previous posts why it is clearly God's plan for all his children to be part of a Local Church in a locality. If some are lost from this plan then either God should have missed to devise them in his plan or they should be wrong. I cannot find anyother reason.

I hope you can tell me one. I really want to understand what else could be reason. If you do not know one then the only logical conclusion is what I generalized most of them to be, Proud to fellowshp with others.

I believe the reason is very important in this thread as that will answer whether they are committing sin by missing God's plan for them or not.

@yuehan

I knew when I shared that somebody was going to want to know what that looks like:) In my head it's really simple but I don't know if this will make sense. In a nutshell it's not just coming together but it's doing every day life together caring and sharing in transparency. It's being a part of each others lives. Think of being in right relationship and living in close proximity to extended family. It's real face to face relationship that is not compartmentalized and polished but it's moving through life together, warts and all. We show up in each others lives because we love the Lord and we love the brethren. In doing so, coming together is just as natural as breathing. I call it "one anothering” and it's not perfunctory. It's a way of life. I hope I'm making sense here...

I started this conversation in the hope that we can edify and encourage those who do not have a church home. I'm hopeful we can do that.

Yes I am also hopeful. But we should also tell the truth plainly even if it sounds harsh. I do not know much about current bunch of posters in SI, but some 4 years back when I used to be active in this forum, I have communicated with posters who were content with being alone. All they were to say is, I did not find a Church Godly enough to have me (I am just paraphrasing their words). Such people should know that it is because of their pride they are wonderers without being part of a Church.

Yes there might be those who genuinely did not know the purpose of God for them to be part of a local body. I believe there should be some emptiness in them which if they were honest would have asked God about it and found that it is due being not part of a Church. Either case there is no excuse in missing the ultimate purpose of God.

I will answer more soon. I understand that I have posted some strong statements here in this forum. Many may not be able to digest them. Let me explain each one again to give as much clear picture as I can.

So assuming you are right, that not every local church is in fact a "church body", would you say that if a person is attending a local church that does not meet your definition then they also are "lost"?

Brother, I am not here to give any pattern for a "Church Body". I know many are interested to understand the pattern. Some questions asked to Jasmine here in this thread are related to pattern and even the answer Jasmine has given back is also pattern. Pattern like living close to one another and sharing life cannot make a body. Some of the Churches that I was part of in India (still part of when I go back) have believers live together in same community around the Church building. So I am not against this practice but that does not signify as a necessary characteristic of a Body. The measurement or material used for building a tabernacle cannot define a tabernacle. It is the presence of God that matters. Any one can exactly build in the same pattern but miss the presence of God in it.

So a Church should be characterized by presence of God. If that is not there then there is no use attending it. It is a dead Church, period.

Now regarding the other things I mentioned about being part of a body is the answer I gave to what it takes for being part of a Church. Just attending a Church does not make one as part of a body. One has to be committed to it, should both supply and receive for the proper functioning of the body.

So answering your question if a person is just attending a Church on Sundays then they may consider themselves a Church goer but they are not fulfilling the God's purpose for them to be committed to a Church. Also meeting with some uncommitted believers frequently also does not make one as part of a body.

Similarly people who attend a Church in which Jesus is standing out is also missing God's purpose no matter how committed they are to that Church. One can easily find whether Jesus is present in a Church they attend or not. 1 Cor 14, says even an unbeliever when he attends a Church will be able to recognize the presence of God, then do you think a true believer will not have the discernment to find the ABSENCE of God? One reason they do not discern is, the presence of God is not important for them. They get carried away by other things like eloquent message, meeting known friends in Church, music, agreeing with their doctrine etc...

I was part of a Church during initial days of my conversion where there was not sound message. The brothers leading the meeting did not even know much of the Bible. They did not know most of the theology that we debate in this forum. But one thing they had is humility. So I was confident that because they were humble God will be able to correct them and teach them. But most of the posters here would have rejected such a Church because there is no sound message or doctrine they hear there. Which is more important, God fearing humble brothers or Sound message but no humility to learn from God?

So these are the questions that Church goers here can use to self check,
1. Is God present in their Church or is Money or Music sitting at the throne? Is presence of God really important to them or something else? If they found out that God is not present then are they willing to move out of the Church no matter for how many generations they kept going there?
2. Are they part of the Body or just attending the meeting without playing an active role in the Body? I have explained enough what it is to be part of a body.

For those who do not go to Church anymore, these are the questions,
1. Are they still praying to God for Him to lead them to a Church?
2. Are they willing to humbly sit in a Church if God is present in the Church but all other Brothers in the Church including the elders are not Bible Scholars or do not know the Bible like them? This is were humility is tested.
3. If they tried and tested all the churches in their locality but are absolutely sure that God is not present in any of them then are they praying that God will lead them to like minded believers so that they can meet together regularly and see if it is resulting in a birth of a Church?

They have searched and searched and they are genuinely disheartened by what they are seeing around them in the christian church. They are not critical, they are not harsh, they are not bashing it...they just don't want anything to do with it. Many of them are very discouraged and have in a sense given up "looking" for that which is authentic.

I really have a soft corner for those so called non church goers. I do not beat up anyone just because I call them lost. If a doctor is actually beating up a patient just because he tells him plainly that he has a cancer then I am also beating up these people by calling them lost. We have to tell the truth plainly. Jesus had more compassion than you and I have, but he was so harsh against religious people who did not whole heartedly seek God. My words like 'Lost' may sound Harsh but deep inside me I really long for each one of them to be part of a local Body.

I do not say such things because I have been part of a body, I say because I have also played and playing my share in building of Body. If I am a do-nothing Christian who just sits and bashes others to bring them down then I have no authority to say anything here.

I seriously asked you a question in this forum. Please answer when you find time. I want to know what you feel about those who have given up finding a Church due to discouragement. Did God fail on them to show a local body of Christ? Or Did they fail God by NOT humbling and submitting to the Church God wants them to be? Or (in case where there is no local Church) did they fail God by NOT praying that he will bring people with a similar burden for building Church in their locality? I think we will be purely arrogant if we believe these people are innocent and God made a mistake. I am really seeking an answer even if it contradicts my view, I am willing to learn.

I have witnessed a group of people in a small city in India. They were also discouraged that they could not find any Local Body of Christ in their city to be part of. They went everywhere and found only babylon. Many even cheated on them and extracted the little money they had. Finally they heard that about 3 hours of travel distance from their city (in one direction), there is a Church which is a representation of local Body. Now what did these people do? They travelled every week 3 hours to meet with this Church. In India traveling 3 hours as a group of families is very tiring, it can be compared to traveling 10 hours in US or Australia. That too they were poor people and hence had to use public transport. If you google on Public transport in India then you will get gruesome pictures for sure.

After seeing the continuous longing and faithfulness in these families. The Church in the other city decided to help them to setup a local body in their own city. Now these families used to travel in the morning to attend meeting in the other city and in evening the elders from the other city will travel back to this place to meet with them locally. I have also travelled with elders to encourage this new church that was being planted. I know how tiring the travel was. But this kept happening for server months after which a Church was finally born in their own city!

The point I am bringing here is people in such poor nation are finding the need for a local Church and were willing to put all their effort in seeing one built in their locality. Where do you think in eternity will these discouraged people you are talking about will stand before such poor brothers I have witnessed?

I am not speaking some rocket science here, if we seek with all our heart then we will find him. God is always more eager to bless us than we are to receive.

I've had people judge me because they didn't consider what I do have to be anything. When I left the religious system, they equated that with leaving God. In essence for them church is God. Not only did they judge me, they shunned me and that hurt big time. Yep some people tried to treat me like I was the antichrist but after I got past the hurt I found out religion breeds that kind of behavior. It was only when the Holy Spirit led those same people out of the religious system did they truly understand. It was like the scales fell from their eyes. I couldn't be mad because I knew how long my process took. That's why I learned a long time ago to not internalize another saints lack of understanding because in earnest that has nothing to do with me. The Holy Spirit is still the Spirit of Truth and God's Word is forever settled in heaven. So it's not a hard thing. God is good!

The Lord bless you, Jasmine.

I witness in my spirit with what you are doing (living) and can fully appreciate the confusion you must have come through and a refining that must have taken place. I am sure many on this forum can witness to this as well.

It is not so much the visible "church" that is important, as the invisible body of Christ of which every true believer is a part.

It all comes down to the essence of our faith: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and love one another, as He has loved us"

Please keep sharing from your experience (without "naming and shaming" ), I am sure we can greatly benefit from it.

Blessings,

Sree says that those who are not a part of a visible church are lost.

There is obviously a lot of confusion about this subject in the body of Christ today. Perhaps both are correct?

let me clarify. I am not saying they are eternally lost. I am only saying they are missing God's purpose for their lives which is to be built as his Body in their locality. Losing God's plan in our life is not considered lost then I do not know what else term to use.

Regarding the Global Body of Believers that every true believer is part of, I too agree with its existence. But I do not agree that this is a excuse for someone not to be part of a Local Body Of Believers. Also I do not see Paul writing any letter to Global body of believers, nor Jesus writing to them in Revelation. In Revelation Jesus writes letters only to local Body of Believers in the province of Asia.

I will be interested to hear the Biblical proof for existence of Global Body of Believers and how it can be used as a substitute for not being part of a local Body. I am not challenging anyone here, I am just curious to know if they have any Biblical proof. I am willing to Learn.

I think there is a lot for us to consider on this subject and it is not as simple as some think.
There is mystery involved in being part of The Church, the ekklesia, the " called out" ones.
We have inherited an organised religion where churches are buildings, you attend seminary to qualify to be a pastor etc etc.
This has been and is being shaken, I believe, by the Lord and many of us are on the outside looking in and wondering if we will ever feel at home in a " church" again.
The Lord is fanning the flames and He is refining His people. He knows those Who are His and will not let us down.
We need to follow the voice of our shepherd wherever He leads and it may not be to a local " church " just yet, until He has fulfilled His purpose in us, all of us.

"What I do sense though is that the Lord is calling His people out of the systems of men and while they are working through all of this they may seem lost to you and others, if anything they are being rescued. Those that remain in the systems of men are in fact the lost ones for they are imprisoned."

...exactly my perception,brother.

Many here come to find comfort by finding people who also have their belief. I definitely do not share the same belief with you or William. You both can comfort each other taking Bible out of context. I am not here to tell words that please men, I gave all my view from Bible. None of these are my own idea. As far as I see no one here has given any thing from Bible to justify how it is perfectly normal to sit alone without being part of a Church.

It all depends on what is priority. To most believers the priority might be to be saved and go to heaven. If that is the priority then go ahead, why should someone be concerned about what the Bible teaches about Church or letters that Jesus writes to Church. They can be happily believing in a imaginary Gobal church. But according to a definition that a true believer in God's word, if they miss God's plan for their life, they lost something precious. They may still end up in Heaven. But lost is lost. That is why there were people weeping in heaven.

I am as much prone to pride as any believer. But saying the truth is pride then God save people. I never said once that being in a local Body of CHrist will automatically solve all Spiritual pride or problems. Please read at least what I have said. Do not come to such conclusion. It is clearly painful that people here do not care to even understand what others have to say. The moment you hear a word that does not comfort your belief then immediately start blaming others.

I have asked a simple question with an attitude to learn. Did God made the mistake by not showing a local Church to them? Or did they miss God's plan by not praying for a Church? God will always do 2 things either take them to a local body of believers or use them to Build a Local Body if there is no local body in their locality. But to say that God did neither is Arrogance.
If believers do not take the blame and keep seeking comfort in one another then I can plainly see they are ARROGANT in blaming God for not showing a Church to them.

Yes Sheep will hear his voice. But Jesus also said in John 12 that 'Where I am my disciples will also be'. He will not let the sheep to keep wandering without a Sheppard. There should be local Sheppard who submit to the chief Sheppard Jesus. It is believers who are proud to submit to any local Sheppard will keep believing in imaginary Global Church. Humility is the key.

1 Peter 5:1 :- Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, 2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; 3 nor yet as lording it over [a]those allotted to your charge, but [b]proving to be examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading [c]crown of glory. 5 You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

If each believer does not need a local shepherd to oversee them then why did Jesus appoint them? All can be under the chief shepherd directly and imagine a Global body of believers right? It takes humility to be subject to local elders whom Jesus has appointed. That is why Peter calls them proud who does not want to submit to the authority of a local Church. God himself will be opposed to such a person. What more spiritual danger we need?

Blame Peter for being hash.

It really amazes me how believers here are so poor in self examination and keep seeking comfort from fellow posters. Truth alone can set one free not comforting words. Truth is often bitter.

@StirItUp - "Please keep sharing from you experience (without "naming and shaming")..."

I don't know what you're talking about in regards to my post when you say "naming & shaming". If you have some kind of issue with what I've posted, I would appreciate it if you would ask me to clarify. I am willing to do that for you but I am a very plain spoken person who doesn't mesh words and I'm going to continue to be that way. Thanks :)

RE: ///If each believer does not need a local shepherd to oversee them then why did Jesus appoint them? All can be under the chief shepherd directly and imagine a Global body of believers right?///

I am not convinced that Jesus appointed shepherds.
There is but one Shepherd and that is Jesus.

edit : change "Jesus never" to "I am not convinced that Jesus"

Jesus never appointed shepherds.
There is but one Shepherd and that is Jesus.

Jesus when he was on earth, he planted only one church consisting of 12 disciples. He was the only elder and shepherd as long as he lived on this earth. But before his departure he asked Peter to shepherd his flock. [oops it appears that Jesus did appoint shepherd, but if some who is more superior to accept the authority of Scripture it might not be so... ]

John 21 :16 - Jesus told him, "Shepherd My sheep.”

Probably Jesus should have consulted the posters here, they would have proudly said we will not require any shepherds... We will not submit to any man...

Probably Apostle Paul was wrong when he appointed Elders in all the Churches he planted and also asked Titus to appoint elders as well.
Titus 1:5-For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,

To Timothy he also gave instruction on who should be shepherd.

I already posted 1 Peter 5:1 where Peter talks about submission to local Shepherds.

If a person does not acknowledge the earthly shepherd God has placed over him, how will he submit to an invisible Chief shepherd Jesus?

The man of God who has most sermons on this website, still submits to the elders he himself has appointed in his Church. He does not take decisions alone saying I submit to the chief Shepherd alone. That is why God has blessed him with so much anointing.

Like I posted from 1 Peter 5, the one who is so proud to submit to local authorities God has given, will be opposed by God himself.

It is not about who is right or wrong, to me the curse of God himself opposing a proud man who does not submit to authority sounds scary. At least fear God.

Dear Jasmine,

Please feel free to address me as William. It is my real name 🙂

I sincerely apologize for my poor choice of words which resulted in confusion.
My post was meant to encourage only.

I meant the statement in a lighthearted fashion, that in sharing your experiences in future and where churches or individuals were involved you don't have to name them. 😄

Please do continue to speak plainly, it is refreshing.

God bless,

Brother Awakened,

If I understand correctly, according to you (or most posters here) being part of a Church is a luxury, so you are only pitying on those who do not have this luxury and are unchurched.
But according to me being part of a local Body of Christ, is the ultimate purpose of every Christian. I cannot compromise on this truth no matter how much burden and concern I have on those who are unchurched. I said it plainly that I cannot blame God for not showing a Church to them. I will only put the blame on them. Because our views are extremely opposite in nature, all my posts are appearing harsh and without any love or concern to you. If you think from my perspective and the value of truth about Church I have posted here, you will understand my intentions clearly. If I have posted anything unscriptural then please feel free to point it out, I am always willing to learn. Otherwise I am not concerned about how anyone feels about my post.

I am not against any poster here, I value everyone here. I am only against the spirit that posters here have to belittle the importance of Church. For example posting things like 'Jesus never asked to plant Church', 'Jesus never appointed Shepherds' etc, without even a hint of Scripture backing them, is not a spirit of Christ. Any one with a Spirit of Christ will not involve themselves in matters that are too high for them to understand. If they have no revelation on what it is to plant a Church then it is better to keep quite than keep posting unscriptural things. I am totally against such spirit.

I have never involved in any other heated debates here like pre or post trib. Frankly I have no time or interest in them. I have my views. I do not have any interest in involving in such theological debates that are too high for me.

Yes it is a public forum where people are free to say their opinion. But it is also a Christian forum, where your Yes should Yes and No should NO. Subjects like Church, which the poster himself is not having a clear understanding of, why should they poke their nose? I am totally against this spirit. Especially on things like Church which I believe more than 90% of Godly believers have no clear understanding. Paul himself says Church is a mystery.

People who post so lightly of the need for Church, do not understand that they are causing the little ones stumble, who do not have clear understanding of Church. It is fine if these posters believe that they are super holy and are no need of a Church or Shepherds, but to say that no one needs them is clearly causing a stumbling block. The curse for such people is very heavy according to the words of Jesus (Matt 18:6).

You may say that by posting the truth plainly (or harshly from your perspective), I also cause the non Church goers to stumble or get offended. But according to me they are already fallen from the ultimate purpose of God on this earth. How can I make them stumble anymore? Further if truth can make someone stumble then they should really question whether they are born again, because there is no love for truth in them.

Maybe it would help if you shared your own experiences with church/body life?

One main reason I have not posted about my own fellowship here is, I do not want to emphasis on pattern of my church and give an impression that it is perfect. I know it is not perfect, but we are pressing on to perfection. We are also sure of the presence of God, which alone matters not the pattern of our fellowship.

I have also posted the experience of a group of believers who were also beaten up by so many institutional churches and finally instead of running towards being unchurched, they sought and succeeded in planting a body of Christ in their locality. I believe it should be greatest encouraging story if someone is really wanting to know what it takes to see a local Church being planted.

Regarding my personal experience,I have already posted how I came to the Church I am currently part of in the thread -'Make Disciples Not Plant Churches'.

Instead I want to post on the bitter experiences that I had in my own fellowship. I believe Church in new covenant can be compared to the Noah's ark of Genesis. To be inside the ark for 40 days with Animals that have also not taken bath for 40 days would not be a pleasant experience. Same way, when we come together with imperfect believers, it is also not always pleasant. I can post 2 very bitter experiences which stands out on top. In one case it was legalistic elder brothers who condemned my wife for a nontrivial issue which was simply a cultural misunderstanding. It was very difficult to digest, but instead of leaving the Church, we humbled ourself and submitted to the God given elders. God always exalts the humble, one of them who accused us is a wanderer but I am still in the fellowship. In another case we were accused of a serious sinful act that we did not commit. It was totally the imagination of another person in the Church, but again we humbled ourself. The person who accused us is a wanderer now, but we are in the Church!
I am not perfect either, I have made mistakes which were sharply rebuked by elders, I had to humble and accept my mistakes.

People who are not part of a Church like mine, might look from outside and think that I am part of a perfect Church and that is why I post these things here. It is similar to a person with a broken marriage looking at a happily married couple and thinking that they are made for each other. But little did this person know, how this couple learnt to adjust with one another to have this happy married life. Same way to be part of a closely knitted body of Christ is not a cake walk. In my human body, I get headache because of bad sinus. Same way in a Body of Christ, one part suffers because another is imperfect. But if we learn to humble ourself then we can survive.

In Noah's ark if the lamb got offended with the lion who once chased it to death and decides to leave the ark, whose loss is that? The lamb dies in the flood. Same way to be committed to a local body of believers requires lot of sacrifice and lessons on humility.

I am not sure you expected this testimony of mine. I believe it would have encouraged at least a little!

Awakened. You get carried away by words rather than spirit. Since I do not agree with you, that going to a Church is a luxury, everything I tell here is awful. My humble advice to you is to be teachable. At least read and understand what I have written. All you care is whether I agree with you or not. If I do not agree with you then I am an accuser.

I am not angry with anyone here. In fact I have said that clearly in my post. I am only against how they loosely post on subjects like planting Church which is a mystery that only few can understand. You only pick certain words randomly and come to a conclusion. None of them including you can challenge what I have posted here using scripture. If you can then do that rather than empty talk.

More than you, I have encouraged people to keep praying about finding a local Body here. Why will I accuse someone who is in the process of praying to find a local body? This accusation of yours itself shows how you have not read any of my posts here, there is no truth in what you post. You only zip through to find if there is anywhere I agree with you.

I have given numerous examples including my own example on how to find a local body. I have also given practical check points to examine themselves. I see the moderator Greg agreeing with my post here. I know how Greg is a man who eagerly seeks a fellowship of believers. He was part of our fellowship when he was in US. Only one who values Church will agree with me. I do not care how those who have no respect for God's word find me harsh.

I know in what spirit I post than a person like you who does not even care to read my posts. Disagreeing with me is different but keep on accusing me without any scriptural proof is what you are doing. Judge yourself before posting anything about me.

I have asked you a single question 3 or 4 times here, in a teachable spirit. Not once you cared to answer. I do not think you even cared to read those questions. Like I said before, since I post the truth, I do not care how it feels to anyone. The Pharisees cannot stand the truth in Jesus, neither will all so called believers today.

If one searches for truth he will find comfort, if they seek for comfort they will find none. - CS Lewis.

Brother Mark, I really appreciate the detailed answer you gave. I cannot agree with all of your statement.

I think scripture disagrees with you brother. The Apostle John was isolated from a local body for a long time. Many who have been imprisoned have been isolated.

In my very first post where I have said that, I do not believe all who are unchurched are proud. I only said many or even most. The exception I gave are those who are in remote places to serve God and to make disciples. For example if William Carry had not come and lived in India, many Indians won't have Bible in their language today. During most of his time in INdia, he lived alone without any fellowship.

But I do not believe that a believer in a city in Western nations like USA, where people call themselves as Bible belts, God will keep them isolated without any fellowship. No chance.

It is the timing that might be tripping people up.

I agree that there will be a time gap. But it will also be very short, shorter than what we think. Fellowship is the distinctive mark of New Covenant. In my life the gap was just one week.
I was born again in a big american Church. But my wife who was a friend at that time, kept telling me that the values that the Church stands for are not Biblical. I kept ignoring her as I did not even understand what she meant! But one day God exposed the Church pastor's folly to me when he was speaking about offering. The pastor said that, it really pains him when people put only $1 bill in the offering bucket. I was shocked because last I read about Jesus was he appreciated a women who put 1 cent! How can his spirit be so opposite to that of Jesus? How can I sit under such a man who has his eyes set on money rather than Jesus. It was the last day I went to that mega Church.

Same week 'the man who has most sermons on this site' came to my in-laws house in India. While inquiring about the Church his daughter was attending in USA, he pointed my father-in-law to the local Church that he has planted there. My wife when she heard that, said she wanted to attend that Church. I did not go with her that week, I was skeptical about meeting a bunch of Indians as I thought they will force me to take Baptism. I also thought they will look down on me for being a convert from Hinduism and for having no Christian roots!

But I still remember the excitement that my wife had when she returned from the Church. She said she has never met such humble brothers and sisters, and was so blessed by both the word and fellowship she had. Just looking at her joy made me forget all my skepticism. I said, no matter how much I will be looked down there, I will attend that Church. Next week I went there and immediately realized that all my wife said about that group was true. This fellowship was in Atlanta USA. Now I have moved to Dallas for work reasons.

It was not a smooth sailing all the time, it has been over 6 years in different fellowships all planted by one man, in both India and USA. Like I said before, I have suffered because of others, I have also committed mistakes. But in everything I humbled and kept staying in the fellowship because I know God was there. If God was there he will always support the humble even if the entire fellowship stands against the humble one. It happened every single time in my case!

Now I am not saying that since God's timing in my case was just 1 week everyone else will also have only 1 or less than that. But I truly believe that the time is definitely not longer like what many here think.

Here are the reasons why I believe most of them are having huge delay in God showing them a body to be part of. You can call me judgmental, but I am willing to help people here. If you take your prejudice out and read them in right spirit, you will at least understand what I am telling here. Please consider what I am writing here. You do not need to agree. At least understand the spirit, it is not accusing spirit but helping one.

1. Have they left their current church because God's name was not glorified or because their personal name was not Glorified? In most of the case if they honestly answer there will definitely be cases of personal offence. I am saying this because I got more than 1 opportunity where I could get offended and become a wanderer. But God gave me grace to humble myself. I know it is difficult to stay in a closely knit fellowship. There will be several opportunities to get offended.
If they left the Church because they are offended then God will wait till they overcome the sin of getting offended. It is definitely not wise to lead them to another Church, because again they will get offended. Hence even long delay is acceptable here. But again the mistake is not with God.

2. Are they sincerely praying that God will lead them to a Church? Or they are quite content with staying alone. If they are content with staying alone then why will God disturb them? God's grace and mercy are only for hungry souls, not for those who are already satisfied.

I am totally fine if they are praying. But it is being content, imagining an universal body of believers is what I think is cause for any lack of action from God.

I already posted a thread itself on a group of people who took pains to see a local body planted in their locality. How many unchurched here can confidently say that they have taken such an effort? Let them answer to God not to me.

I think instead of we keep debating on this topic, it will be beneficial if someone who is currently unchurched tell us why they believe God is causing this delay. As far as I see, I did not hear even one testimony from such a person. But I am sure there are several unchurched people here, who will be cursing me for telling the truth! Instead why not come out and tell their side of story. Why not try answering the 2 questions I have asked for their self check.

I am really willing to learn from them. I am interested in either scriptural proof of justifying their unchurched decision or at least a real testimony that justifies their stand. But I hear nothing other than what people think is right and wrong.

Brother Mark, I really appreciate your personal testimony. I value personal testimony a lot from every person whether I agree with them or not. Even if they have failed, we can still learn something from their failure. I will respond to your posts in multiple phases are I find time. The need for response is to show how much I have learnt from your experience and also to value what you have written.

They are in a sense given the left foot of fellowship. Others are mistreated and misunderstood for other reasons and because the values and the standards are so different from the believer, they leave those churches.

I completely agree in such circumstances. Even if the person who leaves is right or wrong, it is better to leave than stay at a place trying to change them. In my own life, I left the mega Church because I did not agree with their values.
But many decides to stay and try to change the values, which I do not believe is right unless they have some authority in that Church. I had no authority in the mega Church so I choose to leave!

When this pattern occurs again and again it can make a person jaded, or cynical or even fearful. They can begin to wonder if there are ANY pure expressions of the body of Christ left in their area. Perhaps there are none but God will show them the way forward.

Agreed. But unbelief is a serious sin. We have to tell them the real purpose of God and make them believe that God will bring them part of a body. I do not believe comforting them will change them. Jesus rebuked unbelief whenever he saw that in believers.

Now we meet as a family and seek the Lord together but we are in no way content with this arrangement.

Thank you brother, I can totally understand your position. I believe God will definitely answer your prayers.

Here in Dallas as well, we only have 4 committed families meeting together, there are few visitors. Some are showing signs of being committed. One prayer that I pray which I inherited from my elders is, 'Lord please bring any person who wants to live a God fearing life in our midst. If not take us to such a person. If you are willing to do none of these 2 then show us where we are lacking'.