Whosoever Will Gospel

One of the most popular beliefs of the day is that God loves everybody, and the very fact that it is so popular with all classes ought to be enough to arouse the suspicions of those who are subject to the Word of Truth. God's love towards all His creatures is the favorite tenet of Universalists, Unitarians, Theosophists, Christian Scientists, Spiritualists, Russellites, etc. . . . So widely has this dogma been proclaimed, and so comforting it is to the heart which is at enmity with God, we have little hope of convincing many of there error.To tell the Christ-rejecter that God loves him is to cauterize his conscience as well as to afford him a sense of security in his sins. The fact is, the love of God is a truth for the saints only, and to present it to the enemies of God is to take the children's bread and to cast it to the dogs.

Taken from the sermonindex link -
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=25762

A Sermon by Rolfe Barnard on sermonindex - Click the link -

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=19740

Jeah, I think you're right in one way. But another thing is that people must know that if they don't come to Christ as Lord and Saviour - in repentance and faith - that they are under Gods judgement already and that when they die, that they will meet the Judge of judges, the King of kings, the Lord of glory! And that if they aren't right with Him on this earth, that they will be thrown from God for all eternity while Gods wrath is upon them.

Both need to be preached I believe, don't you?

But God demonstrated HIS LOVE toward us, in that while WE WERE YET SINNERS, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

Deuteronomy 7:6-10

For thou art a holy people to the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people to himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn to your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bond-men, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, who keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations: And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

Hebrews 12:5,6

And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

"My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

Psalms 5:5,6

The arrogant shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak lies: the LORD abhorreth the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

Matthew 7:23

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Psalms 11:5

The LORD tests righteous people, but he hates wicked people and the ones who love violence.

John 13:1

Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end.

Ephesians 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her;

Someone asks,

"Does God not love even his enemies?"

Jesus answers in Luke 19:27

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

1 John 4:8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

The argument that God loves only the elect is offensive in the extreme and is not supported by the whole of scripture.

I thought these Calvinistic posts were anathema in these parts.

docs, you quoted Romans 5:8;

"...toward us", "...while we", "...died for us."

Who are the "us" and "we"?

The same ones as in these other verses in Romans, and to whom this letter was written;

Romans 1:7

To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 4:23-25 and 5:1,2,9-11

Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was reckoned unto him; but for our sake also, unto whom it shall be reckoned, who believe on him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up for our trespasses, and was raised for our justification.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God....Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

TMK said,

"I thought these Calvinistic posts were anathema in these parts."

These posts are merely links to sermons and articles found on the SI website.

Just as the other thread with a link on SI to the Keith Daniels sermon.

No offense intended!

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ((all men)) unto me.

Acts 17:30\t
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ((all men)) every where to repent:

Some teach that the ((all men)) means : men of every sort

I personally believe that ((all men)) Means : ((all men))

John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Tuc-

The Calvinist will twist your verses to mean that atonement was only effective for (limited to) those heathens who God chose in advance to save. The other poor heathens have no recourse. It's a repellant doctrine that unfortunately great men of God have believed.

Just the tip of the iceberg of some of the great men of God who believed/believe these truths -

Paul Washer -
George Mueller - (missionary to orphans)
Andrew Fuller (1754”“1815),founder of the Baptist Missionary Society
Wayne Grudem (1948”“), American theologian and author
Adoniram Judson (1788”“1850), first Protestant missionary sent from North America to preach in Burma
Albert Mohler (1959”“), American theologian and president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
John Piper (1946”“), American preacher and author
David Platt (1979”“), American pastor and President of the International Mission Board
Arthur W. Pink: 1886-1952 (Bible teacher and theologian)
Augustus Toplady: 1740-1778 (author of "Rock Of Ages" and other hymns)
Benjamin Keach: 1640-1704 (1689 Baptist Confession)
B.H. Carroll: 1843-1914 (founder south Western Theological Seminary)
Charles Spurgeon: 1834-1892 (famous Baptist preacher)
Francis Schaeffer: 1912-1984 (author of "How Shall We Then Live" video series)
George Whitefield:1714-1770 (evangelist & preacher)
J.C. Ryle: 1816-1900 (writer, pastor, evangelical preacher)
J.P. Boyce: 1827-1888 ( founder Souther Baptist Theological Seminary)
John Bunyan: 1628-1688 (author of Pilgrim's Progress)
John Calvin: 1509-1564 (preacher & Bible scholar)
John Foxe: 1516-1587 (author of Foxe's Book Of Martyrs)
John Gill: 1697-1771 (renowned theologian and Bible commentator)
John Knox: 1513-1572 (founder of Presbyterianism)
John Newton: 1725-1807 (wrote the hymn "Amazing Grace")
John Owen: 1616-1683 (theologian and author)
Jonathan Edwards: 1703-1758 (evangelist)
Martyn Lloyd-Jones: 1834-1892 (pastor and theologian)
Martin Luther: 1483-1546 (Protestant Reformer)
Matthew Henry: 1662-1712 (famous Bible commentator)
Roger Willilams: 1603-1683 (founded the first Baptist church in America)
William Carey: 1761-1834 (missionary)
William Wilberforce: 1759-1833 (slavery abolitionist)

Yes it is truly unfortunate.

RE: /// I had my doubts about you Savannah but this is beyond the pale. That statement is outright blatant false teaching...a lie from the pit of hell. Can someone please toss this rubbish in the trash where it belongs.///

It was not Savannah's personal writing, it was a quote of A.W Pink that he posted and provided the SI link for.

edit : clarity

If you click the link in the OP you will find that proudpapa is correct.

What you call, "outright blatant false teaching...a lie from the pit of hell...rubbish...", can be found on the sermonindex website by just clicking the link.

You seem to be a tad angry, but maybe I'm just choosing to think it to be true, because really you aren't.

Thanks for your interest in the thread.

I was throwing a frisbee with a friend of mine in a park one day in 1972. I had been caught with marijuana and hash a few months before and was waiting to go to trial. I had grown sick of the drug culture and my life yet was unable to change anything and was deeply frustrated and afraid and tired and spent. I was living outside of Christ and as an enemy of God, A man was across the street on a porch watching us and the Lord prompted him to come across the street and share Christ with us. He his own self had been saved about a year before. So as an agent of reconciliation this complete stranger came across the street and spoke with us concerning Christ and it worked. To an enemy of God he dared mention that God loved sinners and us. He presented to us through his words and manners a effectual demonstration of the lowliness and meekness of Christ. Telling us God loved us even in our sin did not cauterize my conscience or assure me in my sin. It convicted me. He took the children's bread and broke it among is and asked us to taste even while enemies of God. He wasn't offended by my sinful state. He set a sumptious table before us made up of the children's bread and asked us to taste and savor while he prepared the next bite for us. He came and addressed enemies of God. He shared scripture with us and prayed for us children of wrath. I took many friends to see him and he welcomed them and probably 15 to 20 people ended up getting saved. All because he looked past our sin as God did in Christ and was willing to share the children's bread among the enemies of God. Many dogs came and ate from the table and became heirs of salvation and friends of God.

Oops and sorry for the double post which I have now deleted.

Dear brothers,

Surely this is more than a " I am of Calvin I am of Arminius" discussion.

We cannot deny that election is taught in God's Word and there are valid points to be made?

Can any of us truly say we sought God out first? Even the desire to know Him, where did it come from? The grace to repent? The gift of faith to believe?
Why was I saved and born again and not the guy next to me?
Was it anything in me or God's choice and calling?

Let us humbly consider and not be afraid to face these truths head on without being a Calvinist or whatever.

Blessings,

Thanks brother Blaine for your gentle response, always appreciated.

I think Greg may be gracious to those of us who are new to the forum 😊 and may go over some things covered before.

I would like the points of view put forward respectfully so we can make informed decisions, however, if this is not possible I also agree that we rather make no comments at all.

Blessings,

Brother William,

I do readily and wholeheartedly confess both election and predestination and have only one fear (besides God Himself) and this is that I might fail His grace and cheat the Lord Jesus out of that for which His blood was shed, however (for me) these two doctrinal points speak not of salvation but speak directly to sanctification or Christ likeness. For surely everyone who is saved is elect and therefore predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ:)

A bit of humor to lighten the tension...
"I've never met a soul who confessed the doctrine of election that didn't believe themselves to be one of the elect, and often their friends and family were too" ;)

Ha! It would be a strange thing to hear a person confess the doctrine of election being clearly authored by Holy Spirit in the scriptures only to hear them say, "but it really stinks that I'm not one of the elect"

No offense intended to anyone who holds this doctrine just hoping to offer an opportunity to smile and rejoice in the Lord, for wether it is by free will or unconditional election, He is faithful and is worthy of our worship, So I will praise Him and worship Him because He is good to me😇

Well said Fletcher 😄 and I agree that when we're in heaven ,standing shoulder to shoulder singing: Worthy the Lamb that was slain! we will not be concerned with why we are there but just humbled that we are there at all, and eternally grateful!

Blessings,

William I appreciate your heart in this matter.

When you take these discussions on Calvinism and go as deep as you can go after all the layers are peeled away, what is left is a person's view of God's sovereignty. I agree that God is sovereign, He answers to nobody and He does what He wants. The issue is whether he meticulously causes every event in the universe to happen, including the movement of subatomic particles and choices made by people, or whether He leaves some room for free choice to be made. I have said before that if God foresees and causes every little minute thing that ever happens, then one of His attributes along with omniscience and omnipotence must be omni-boredom. Note that I am not saying that God could not do this; I just can't believe that He does- because an honest reading of scripture would lead a person to believe that people make real choices (not pretend pre-programmed choices) and therefore God is justified in holding them accountable. What I cannot countenance is the idea that people make the wrong, pre-programmed choices (that God chose for them to make) and God STILL holds them accountable (even ultimately consigning them to a place of torment). That would not be very nice, to say the least. In fact a person might call that monstrous, if it was not God we were talking about.

Psalm 5:5

Boastful ones will not stand before you; you hate all those who practice wickedness.

Leonard Ravenhill - "Some people say 'God hates your sin but loves you, the sinner', but that's bunkum - God hates you for sinning."

Adam Clark - "Some sin now and then, others generally; some constantly, and some labor in it with all their might. These are the Workers of iniquity. Such even the God of infinite love and mercy hates. Alas! what a portion have the workers of iniquity! the hatred of God Almighty!"

BROADMAN BIBLE COMMENTARY: "Yahweh takes no pleasure in wickedness and does not dwell with evil (or evil men). Insolent, boasting people have no position at all in the presence of Yahweh, who hates all 'doers of sin.' Indeed, Yahweh will annihilate those who speak deception: He detests the man of bloody deeds and deceits."

F. DELITZSCH : "Of such (sinners - the foolish, and more especially the foolish boasters:)... such men Jehovah hates: for if He did not hate evil, His love would not be a holy love," ... "And His soul hates the evildoer and him that delights in the violence of the strong against the weak. And the more intense this hatred, the more fearful will be the judgments in which it bursts forth." (Psalms, Vol.5, pp.122,189)

JONATHAN EDWARDS: "The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much in the same way one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: His wrath towards you burns like fire: He looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire: He is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in His sight: you are ten thousand times more abominable in His sight than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours." (Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God, July 8, 1741)

CHARLES G. FINNEY: "The very thing that God hates and disapproves is not the mere event - the thing done in distinction from the doer; but it is the doer himself. It grieves and displeases God that a rational moral agent under His government should array himself against his own God and Father, against all that is right and just in the universe. This is the thing that offends God. The sinner himself is the direct and only object of His anger." (The Guilt of Sin, pp.84-85)

THE INTERNATIONAL CRITICAL COMMENTARY: "But the wicked His soul doth hate ... Their treacherous preparations...are all observed by Yahweh, and He hates them from His very soul. The soul is the seat of the passion of anger and hatred, for God as well as for man...therefore, Yahweh is trying the righteous man, and hating His deadly enemies..."

THE INTERPRETER'S BIBLE: "In vs. 5 the verb 'trieth' has its object both the righteous and the wicked, and means nomore that the Lord watchfully observes them both and estimates them for what they are, hating the latter and ultimately pouring His destruction upon them."

LAYMAN'S BIBLE COMMENTARY: "God's Hatred of Evildoers (Psalm 5:4-5)... God is not said to love the sinner and hate his sin; He is said to hate both the sinner and his sin. This sounds harsh to modern Christian ears, but thereis truth here we dare not overlook."

MATTHEW HENRY'S COMMENTARY: "He is a holy God, and therefore hates them (the sinner), and cannot endure to look upon them; the wicked, and him that loveth violence, His soul hateth... Their pros-perity is far from being an evidence of God's love...their abuse of it does certainly make them objects of His hatred. He hates nothing that He has made, yet hates those who have ill-made themselves."

J. VERNON MCGEE: " If you think God is just lovey-dovey, you had better read this (Ps.11:5) and some of the other Psalms again. God hates the wicked who hold onto their wickedness... I do not think God loves the devil, I think He hates him, and He hates those who have no intention of turning to God. Frankly, I do not like this distinction that I hear today, that 'God loves the sinner, but hates the sin.' God has loved you so much that He gave His Son to die for you, but if you persist in your sin, and continue in that sin, you are the enemy of God. And God is your enemy." (Psalms, Vol.1, p.72)

CHARLES H. SPURGEON: "Verse 5 - Note the singular opposition of the two sentences. God hates the wicked, therefore in contrast He loves the righteous..." (The Treasury of David, Vol.2, pp.57-58)

AUGUSTUS HOPKINS STRONG : "There is no abstract sin that can be hated apart from the person in whom that sin is represented and embodies. It is the sinner who is punished, not the sin." (Systematic Theology, p.290f)

JOHN WESLEY (1703-1791, founder of Methodism): "But as for the wicked, God hates them, and will feverishly punish them." (Explanatory Notes Upon the Old Testament, Vol.2, p.1639)

I believe God!
I believe His Word!
I believe that God is Love!

I believe, along with these men and numerous others, that God also hates. Just as expressed above.

May we preach the Gospel of God, even as the apostles did. May we not add nor take away from that Gospel. For the wrath of God abides on them, and they are condemned already. May we preach the Gospel of grace that men may repent and believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved from that wrath and condemnation.

Our God reigns!

"Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?" Ezekiel 18:23

If God truly hates the wicked, he would take great pleasure in making them suffer.

It is rather tenuous to build a doctrine of God's hate toward mankind based on language in a poem.

Matthew 5:43\t
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Matthew 5:44\t
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

P.S. to my post below: "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" is one of the worst things ever written.

Maybe where we fail with all this theology is that we misunderstand what is God's love and God's hate. Vernon McGee quoted above is right in saying 'God does not have a sentimental gooey love for people'. But he does Love the sinner, that is He Loved (agape) the world in sending His son to die for all. We can misinterpret John 3:16 to say 'God just feels so emotionally in love with all people He sent Jesus'. When it actually says is that 'God so loved (past tense verb) the world He sent Jesus to die. God's love here is something He did for us, a sacrificial love.

This is the love we are to have for our enemies, not a sentimental emotional feeling, but a practical love just as the scripture Proudpapa posted. In a similar way God's hate is not an emotional feeling, but a contrasting action to His Love, e.g. God resists the proud. He call us to also hate brother, mother, wife, etc in contrast to us loving God Himself, i.e. if there is any conflict in our allegiance.

So as I understand it, scripture declares that God both Loves and hates the sinner. When we understand what this means we see there is no contradiction in it.

These are some thoughts and questions I have pondered over the years regarding Gods love and Gods hate. Because God is infinite and we are presently finite God already sees the beginning and end of men and we do not.

He knows who will choose and those who will reject Him I believe, before men are even created. I have to say, even though I have been saved since 1988 and for half my lifetime, I know absolutely ZERO about the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism? I have never been led to understand or even study the debate between the two, there is just no interest on my part. I have seen many discussions and debates but for me it is confusing so I would rather read and study other topics.

So when I say God knows who will choose or reject Him, I do not believe God does not make us choose to reject, I believe we are free moral agents and everyone who He creates He gives them the opportunity to choose Him and also the freedom to reject Him.

So when God created the angels I believe He knew Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels would reject Him. When God created Adolf Hitler and Judas He knew before He created them that THEY would choose to reject Him.

I do not fret, worry, debate, or waste my time asking "Then why did God create them?" I have ZERO interest in figuring that out, there are so many things about God that are a flat out mystery, but I am at total peace knowing He is in control and I am totally secure in knowing He loves me.

So here are some thoughts, when looking at men's lives in the past tense like Adolf Hitler or Judas who we know have ended their lives rejecting God, my question is, does God STILL love them? Or can we say or assume God hates them?

Because we cannot see these men's end and God can and now that it (their life) is in the past tense and they have rejected God, I believe God hated these men. I can say that now because I know their end as it is now in the past tense. But if I was alive when they were and had the opportunity to preach Gods love to them in spite of their attrocities that is what I would preach to them. Jesus, knowing Judas would betray Him washed Judas' feet just before his betrayal of the Christ.

The risk I run in believing that God would still love me even though I would choose to abide in, practice, and habitually commit sin gives me ZERO security. I find ZERO comfort whatsoever in believing that if I choose to reject God and practice sin that God still loves me. I do not want to believe that.

I actually find peace and comfort in knowing that my willful rejection of God will bring down His wrath upon me and that I will be eternally separated from Him in the lake of fire. So when I read Psalm 5:5, it makes me realize that if I choose to willfully turn from my righteousness in Christ and love my sin more than I love God I will heap Gods wrath and hatred upon myself.

Todd said Jonathan Edwards sermon Sinners In The Hands of an Angry God was the worst thing ever written, I respectfully disagree with that statement for this reason.

Two and a half months before my older brother died this sermon was given to me to consider giving to my brother. When I received it, I read it and prayed over it for some time. I made some alterations by boldening, highlighting, and underlining certain portions and read that sermon over 20 times before giving it to my brother.

My brother had heard the Gospel over and over again, he was truly enslaved to the sin of drug and alcohol addiction. He stole, used, and manipulated people to feed his own habit.

But our family and friends had a tremendous amount of love and compassion on him because he hated doing what he was doing. I have many of his papers and diaries that he would express his love for God and his hatred for his sin.

He would cry bitter tears when he would come off a binge, missing family time, holidays, his children's birthdays, etc.

This went on his whole life and he was reaping his lifestyle in his flesh and ended up with heart issues which he ended up dying from.

He was pretty much incapacitated and I took the sermon to him and asked him if he would consider reading it and he said absolutely. I gave it on a Saturday and told him I would not go to church on Sunday but come over and we would discuss it.

When I came the next day and let myself into his house I heard him crying in his bed, when I got there I asked what was wrong with him and he said it was the sermon I gave him.

It scared him so much he stayed up all night and did not sleep one wink crying out and confessing to God every sin he ever committed.

The last two and half months of his life were completely different and noticed by all, God granted him repentance and set him free from his sin, condemnation, and utter hopelessness he struggled with his whole life. He was finally at peace, visible peace.

My brother, like myself found no pleasure or security in knowing that while he was choosing to do his own will that he would still attain heaven. This sermon accomplished what our family had been praying and hoping for in his life. There was sorrow in my brother for many years but it was not the sorrow that would eventually lead him to repentance.

I believe and preach both the love and hatred of God and by Gods precious grace with a balance and by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I dreadfully fear making people so comfortable with Gods love that their is ZERO motivation for them to repent and forsake their sin.

And on the other hand, I dreadfully fear leaving people so hopeless and condemned because of Gods hatred should they choose to continue and abide in their sin.

Watching many debates of this topic and others like it here on SI reminds me of those who go to a football game and there are two teams on the field and the spectators in the stands. I know Jesus does not attend such games, He neither plays, nor spectates, He is neither found anywhere in the stadium but is out in the highways and bi-ways preaching the gospel, healing the sick, cleansing the lepers, and setting the captives free.

While many here believe you are worlds apart in your opinions about the love and hatred of God there is absolute truth to both sides but I believe you are both missing the forest between trees.

The whole chapter in Ezekiel 18 needs to be read but here is one verse I will pull out.

Ezekiel 18:25 KJV Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

The facts are God both loves and He hates and He is totally just and equal in doing so. He already sees and knows the beginning and end of men's lives and we don't.

I truly hope this helps and does not cause further division and strife, I have done my best to express what is in my heart and head. There is more in there but its kind of like dropping a guitar pick into the body of a guitar and flipping the guitar over and shaking it while moving it left and right to hopefully get the pick out, I hate that when it happens!

Hope you all enjoyed and are enjoying this time of year with your family and friends.

BD

David- thanks for your post.

Do you believe the Westboro Baptist folks are justified in carrying their signs like "God hates queers?" even if they are technically correct? If it is not okay, even if correct, why is it ok for Jonathan Edwards?

I also wonder how his sermon would stand up to 1 Cor. 2:4.

I guess my point is that the end may not always justify the means. In the case of your brother I will make an exception. Praise God!

What a powerful, though bitter-sweet testimony. Your brother will thank you forever having the guts to tell him the truth. Sure you will embrace him again one day.

1 O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
2 Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;
3 And gathered them out of the lands, from the east, and from the west, from the north, and from the south.
4 They wandered in the wilderness in a solitary way; they found no city to dwell in.
5 Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them.
6 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them out of their distresses.
7 And he led them forth by the right way, that they might go to a city of habitation.
8 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
9 For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness.
10 Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron;
11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High:
12 Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help.
13 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses.
14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.
15 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
16 For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.
17 Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted.
18 Their soul abhorreth all manner of meat; and they draw near unto the gates of death.
19 Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saveth them out of their distresses.
20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.
21 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
22 And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing.
23 They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters;
24 These see the works of the LORD, and his wonders in the deep.
25 For he commandeth, and raiseth the stormy wind, which lifteth up the waves thereof.
26 They mount up to the heaven, they go down again to the depths: their soul is melted because of trouble.
27 They reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man, and are at their wits' end.
28 Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he bringeth them out of their distresses.
29 He maketh the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still.
30 Then are they glad because they be quiet; so he bringeth them unto their desired haven.
31 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
32 Let them exalt him also in the congregation of the people, and praise him in the assembly of the elders.
33 He turneth rivers into a wilderness, and the watersprings into dry ground;
34 A fruitful land into barrenness, for the wickedness of them that dwell therein.
35 He turneth the wilderness into a standing water, and dry ground into watersprings.
36 And there he maketh the hungry to dwell, that they may prepare a city for habitation;
37 And sow the fields, and plant vineyards, which may yield fruits of increase.
38 He blesseth them also, so that they are multiplied greatly; and suffereth not their cattle to decrease.
39 Again, they are minished and brought low through oppression, affliction, and sorrow.
40 He poureth contempt upon princes, and causeth them to wander in the wilderness, where there is no way.
41 Yet setteth he the poor on high from affliction, and maketh him families like a flock.
42 The righteous shall see it, and rejoice: and all iniquity shall stop her mouth.
43 Whoso is wise, and will observe these things, even they shall understand the lovingkindness of the LORD.

Todd,

Thank you for the exception! Praise God! No, I absolutely do not believe what the Westboro Baptist folks are doing and it is grieves me deeply and makes me cringe.

Hopefully because of your input in the form of a question I can try and make my thoughts clearer. We know homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of heaven UNLESS they turn from their sin and turn to God. God’s love is available to all homosexuals as well as all sinners right up to their last breath and that is what I would be pleading, reasoning, and encouraging them to accept.

BUT, if they choose not to turn, THEY, not God, will heap upon themselves Gods wrath, eternal separation, as well as Gods hatred should they end up dying in their sin.

As for 1 Corinthians 2:4, I would have to ponder and think upon that.

Regarding the end justifying the means, I agree that that can be true but because of Gods sovereignty and because Gods ways are not our ways neither are His thoughts our thoughts, the means, no matter how they may appear to us, God can, will, has, and will continue to use various means to accomplish His will as He sees fit.

While God mercifully used Edwards sermon on behalf of my brother, I would definitely NOT use nor employ that sermon on every one I meet. I believe that we should preach grace to the humble and the law to the proud.

Here is a portion that has helped me greatly when ministering to the lost. Jude 1:21-23 Keep yourselves in the LOVE of God, looking for the MERCY of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. (22) And of some have COMPASSION, making a difference: (23) And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

I believe Gods love to ALWAYS be our motivation in ministering to the lost and that we should also extend and be merciful and compassionate and doing so we will make a difference in people’s lives. I see this as a promise. Then verse 23 tells us on others, we save with fear, meaning there are times where we must be very truthful and candid and that is, if people will choose to continue in their rebellion and sin, they will bring upon themselves Gods wrath and ultimate hatred.

I have a question, When Jesus says that not everyone who comes to Him calling Him Lord will enter the Kingdom but he who does the will of the Father and then tells them to depart from Him who chose to practice lawlessness because He NEVER KNEW them.

Obviously God knows everyone because He was there when they were conceived. When He says He never knew them, what does that mean? I don’t believe it to mean, God chose not to know them because He chose to die for them. I believe if we choose to reject and disobey God it is we who determines that He never knew us.

I am not being dogmatic, but this is how I see it in my heart and head. If I am wrong, I believe and trust God will show me.

Thank you again brother, to God be the glory always.

David- excellent post. Thank you.

Mark- I agree with everything you wrote. Very well stated.

I actually feel better now.

Love you guys.

Lord, thank You for this day that You have made and for the ability, freedom, and the choice You have given each and everyone of us here at SI who view, participate, and utilize the various resources that You have made available to us and the fact that we can choose to rejoice and be glad, grateful, and thankful for it.

Lord, I thank You for this topic and the many topics and threads You have put on the saints hearts to share and bring up and I pray Lord that You would allow Your Holy Spirit and the Spirit of unity to prevail in our discussions.

I ask You Father to help me in my posting and the many things that are in my spirit, heart, mind, and soul that I may share them with the brethren in the right spirit Lord.

Father You know I have no desire to convince men against their will neither do I have any desire to gain a following, I have no self seeking agenda Lord, and Lord you know I have no desire to debate, gender strife, sow seeds of discord, and bring about disunity or division.

Please Lord, help me to share the things you put in my heart with the saints here. I ask You to bless each and everyone Lord, Lord allow Your peace to settle and rest upon us Lord for we are Your sheep, Your lambs, and the people of Your pasture Heavenly Father. Holy Spirit I ask You to prevail in our discussions here on SI and bind the spirits of strife, division, discord, disunity, and pride in Jesus name.

Holy Spirit please open our understanding, grant us Your wisdom and open our hearts, our eyes, and our ears to what You would say. Lord it is Your will and not our own we desire, hunger, and thirst for.

Lord I need your strength and Your help to convey what is in my heart, not for my sake but for Your sake and the sake of the brethren. Lord please quicken my faith and calm any fear on my part to step out and speak Your words and not my own Lord.

Lord I ask this in the precious and holy Name of Your dear Son Jesus. Amen and Amen.

Brethren,

As I laid down last night pondering this topic and everyone's comments and thoughts there are many things that come to mind. Like many of the topics and threads I have viewed, participated in, and even the one's I had chosen not to speak nor comment on God uses them to help me on my journey molding me and guiding me along the way.

My mind as I consider these things gets flooded with many thoughts, answers,and conclusions which I tend to keep to my self. I want to try and step out in faith and share more by Gods grace. The reason I don't step out is because I get overwhelmed and there is a bit of fear and intimidation that has hindered me.

Thank you all for the thoughts concerning my brother, his name is John. I say "is" because I believe it has been recorded in the Lambs book of life.

When pondering Gods love and whether God also hates the thoughts and words have come up that it is God who chooses and predestines men's end.

I would like to share what the Lord brought to mind this morning. I have a friend his name is Fred and his story is similar to my brother John in many ways as both these men struggled much of their lives trying to comprehend and receive Gods love. Both of these men were determined that we are merely puppets and that God is the One pulling all the strings. They believed we are robots or computers that God inputs information into and determines the path, result,and outcome that a robot or computer will produce.

We all have been taught when it comes to computers the term GIGO, garbage in, garbage out, as I thought on this it could also stand for good in, good out. But these men did not then realize that we are not robots, puppets, or computers but free moral agents with the God given ability to choose. This ability of choice was given to Adam and Eve in the garden in the very beginning in the Book of Genesis and God saw that everything He created was good. This includes our freedom to choose.

Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest FREELY eat: (17) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

With our freedom of choice He tempers that freedom with a COMMAND. Meaning, even though God had also given us freedom to choose, He will not hinder us or stop us from choosing to disobey. If He did, then John and Fred would be right, we are then just robots, puppets, and computers.

Now, to Fred's story. I met Fred around the year 1998 as he came to rent a room in my mothers home. Fred lived in my mothers home for about 5 years. Fred was never married and has been pretty much alone his whole life with the exception of five siblings. Fred found solace in my mothers home and over time as I got to know him I would share the gospel with him.

Fred was a very angry man, he was very angry at God, and angry at his father. Fred and I would have many discussions about God and why God made us the way He did, and why God allows suffering, murder, rape, starvation. Fred really struggled with why did God create Adam and Eve knowing the devil would come and deceive them and bring about the fall of man.

Fred hated his father because he walked out on his mother and six children, Fred was also angry with God because he has a mild form of MS on one side of his body and has only been able to do menial jobs his whole life. He used to tell me that he would have dreams of running into his father in a restaurant and that Fred would walk up to him and punch him so hard that his head would explode.

For several years I would listen to Fred and would sow a little seed here and a little there, water a little here, and a little there.

One day my mother and I were watching a video sermon by Carter Conlon on forgiveness and Fred had come home and came in and sat with us. It was a powerful sermon and it had an effect on Fred. After the sermon, we had a discussion about forgiveness and his father came up and the discussion was about to get derailed and I kept sharing scriptures to answer his questions and he then got frustrated and said, "yeah, well that may be true, but I was born a catholic, raised a catholic, and will die a catholic!"

I then said if that was the case, he would then go to hell. Now, I normally do not speak so bluntly and even my statement caught my mother by surprise and she said I should not have said that to him. I then asked Fred when was the last time he had been to mass, he said it had been 25+ years, I asked him when was the last time he had said the rosary, again, it had been years, I asked several other things good working Catholics do and again, years if not ever.

I then told Fred he was nothing more than a hypocrite, and again a gasp from my mother and a look of shock on Fred's face. For years I had lovingly sown seeds of truth with Fred and was always gentle and kind with him always appealing with the invitation to reason.

We had many discussions on the topics of Gods love, Gods hate, whether we were free to choose or whether we ourselves made those choices over several years and finally this day Fred hung his dear head and said, "David, you are right".

Fred was a tough nut but Gods word and truth prevailed by Gods grace and Fred committed his life to Christ in 2002.

It took another couple of years of bible study, prayer, discussion, and Fred pondering in the night watches before Fred would come to that complete place of submission regarding the very issues we are discussing here.

While this testimony may not appear to have anything to do with the discussion or topic at hand there is more, this is merely a piece of the puzzle. Like with Fred and John, answers to life's questions cannot be answered in one post or one conversation.

With both these men it took years for Gods truth to prevail and accomplish what He desired for their good. But in the end it was their choice, they, not God, determined their own end. God simply sees and knew their beginning and end.

Please shoot a quick blessing and prayer up for Fred, he is a dear soul and lives quite a distance away so we cannot see each other often. I invite him for visits and holidays but he is getting on in years and is just content staying at home. He really is at peace and loves the Lord deeply. He has one brother and sister in law close by him that are both saved as well as their adult children.

I echo Todd's sentiments as well, I do love guys!

Brethren I think the difference, that we misunderstand sometimes, is like the difference of being under law vs. being under grace.

Under the law we have God manifesting his anger/wrath toward the wicked who persist in their sin. This we see in the old testament.

Under grace, which we presently are now in the age of being in the new covenant, we have God's love being commended to us in the sacrifice of love by the death of Jesus on cross paying the penalty of our sins.

It is the goodness of God, in his grace toward us through Christ Jesus, that leads man to repentance.

We love him because he first loved us in paying the penalty for our sins to redeem us by the blood of his cross effective to all who believe in him.

We don't lead people to Christ today in this age of grace by telling sinners that God hates them because of their sin.

We must tell them that it was because of our sin/sins that Christ Jesus, in his great loved for us, had to die a cruel death on the cross to redeem us who will believe in Him.

blessings to all!