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Article about Hillsong

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by Cameron Buettel & Jeremiah Johnson (Grace to You GTY) Dec 1 2016

The heart of the human problem is the human heart. Therapy can’t change it. Self-help gurus can’t fix it. Positive confession can’t conceal it. And self-esteem can’t convert it.

Sinners cannot be persuaded into the kingdom of God. Salvation is not achieved through mental assent or emotional responses. Unless God regenerates the heart (Ezekiel 36:25”“27; John 3:3) it remains dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1), deceitfully wicked (Jeremiah 17:9), hostile to Him (Romans 8:7), and worthy of condemnation (Ephesians 2:3). That’s not a matter of opinion””it’s God’s own diagnosis of the unregenerate heart. And the only cure is His redeeming and transforming work. Everything else is woefully insufficient.

If you get the doctrine of man wrong, you can’t help but get the gospel wrong, too. That’s why John MacArthur describes total depravity (or "total inability”) as the most distinctly Christian doctrine:

No doctrine is more hated by unbelievers than this one, and even some Christians find it so offensive that they zealously attack it. Though the doctrine of total depravity is often the most attacked and minimized of the doctrines of grace, it is the most distinctly Christian doctrine because it is foundational to a right understanding of the gospel. . . . The neglect of this doctrine within American evangelicalism has resulted in all kinds of errors, including both the watered-down gospel and the seeker-driven pragmatism of the church growth movement. [1]
That was exactly what we experienced during our visits to Hillsong Los Angeles, where the biblical view of man has been discarded and replaced with something far more palatable to a therapeutic, self-centered culture.

Man Is Central

In Hillsong’s spiritual economy, man has tremendous inherent worth. The individual replaces Christ as the central figure in God’s redemptive plan. Their own doctrinal statement says that the purpose of Christ’s life, death, and resurrection was to "prove His victory and empower us for life.” The redemption of wretched sinners is not in view.

That man-centered approach is a recurring theme throughout Hillsong’s global ministry empire. Their songs are often more about the ones singing than the One they’re singing to. Every passage they preach is a promise of God’s blessing and favor for you. And their altar calls emphasize an endless stream of temporal, personal benefits””breakthrough, healing, success, and prosperity.

Effectively, Hillsong’s leaders seek to enable and empower a latent human condition. Their focus is primarily on the enormous potential we have to do great things and be great people. Hillsong’s official website contains a gospel presentation in which we are told that the main point of Christ’s incarnation was to "show us our full potential . . . the wonderful potential of perfected humanity.”

The preaching is where Hillsong’s man-centeredness is most blatant, as all the sermons we heard adhered to a simple but consistent template. First, a narrative portion of Scripture would be isolated and severed from its larger biblical context. Next, the preacher would insert him or herself and the congregation into the story. Third, the text was routinely used as a bridge to introduce personal illustrations from the preacher’s own experiences. And finally, after those personal experiences had been fully exegeted, the passage is recast as a promise from God for the congregation. Sitting under that kind of teaching long enough would convince you that all of Scripture is merely an allegory for you and your life.

God’s purpose in writing the biblical story, or its place in His wider redemptive plan, was never mentioned in any of the messages we heard. Man was always central. However, his culpability for sin was avoided at every turn.

Man Is Never Prosecuted

Human guilt barely registers on the Hillsong radar. While the word "sin” does get an occasional mention in Hillsong worship songs, it is never defined or described. The same goes for all the Hillsong preachers we heard””and even then, they prefer to describe sin as "dumb stuff” or "mistakes.”

Their statement of faith attempts greater clarity on the subject, but still falls far short of the biblical definition: "We believe that sin has separated each of us from God and His purpose for our lives.” That’s not a false statement, but it drastically understates the reality of man’s fallen condition.

The reticence regarding sin extends throughout the ministry. We spoke with some of the Hillsong volunteers responsible for integrating new attenders. They made it clear that they had been instructed to avoid challenging or confronting people about their sins””even open, unrepentant sin. Considering the way Hillsong operates, you can’t help but wonder where and when such a confrontation might happen? It’s certainly not coming from the pulpit.

That reluctance to deal directly with sin is institutional at Hillsong. When Brian Houston””Hillsong’s founder and global pastor””was interviewed on Australian television, he was incapable of expressing any clear-cut biblical convictions on prominent moral issues:

I think that the homosexual question and sexuality generally is one of the most challenging questions there is for the church in the 21st century. And it’s one where I feel conflict myself, as a believer in the Bible and specifically the New Testament, I think that marriage is God’s idea, and I think it’s for a man and a woman. But I also represent a God that’s merciful and gracious and kind, and having to connect those two things I think is one of the great challenges for me as a church leader.

In the church we can point the finger so easily. On the subject of abortion, I’m pro-life. But in a way I’m pro-choice as well, because I believe in the sanctity of life and I believe that life begins at conception. But I also believe that ultimately human beings have to make their own choices, and I ultimately can’t tell you what you should do. I can only give you the parameters that I believe.

Those quotes don’t represent Christian conviction. They are the chameleonic ramblings of a political pragmatist.

Carl Lentz, pastor of Hillsong New York, goes even further than Houston. Instead of equivocating on morality, he simply chooses to avoid the subject altogether. During a television interview with Katie Couric, Lentz was asked for his views on gay marriage: "Do you feel you have a moral imperative to speak publically about some of these more controversial issues?” He responded: "No, because we try to be like Jesus. Very rarely did Jesus ever talk about morality or social issues.”

That’s either a lack of integrity or biblical literacy. Either way, it’s indicative of just how far Hillsong is willing to go to avoid dealing with sin directly.

Man Is a Victim

Since Hillsong refuses to offer any exploration or explanation concerning our personal guilt, our condition is always couched in therapeutic language. Man is regularly designated as the victim rather than the perpetrator.

Both Hillsong’s music and message label the primary problems of unbelievers with words like trapped, bound, enslaved, captive, hurting, wounded, disappointed, let down, and brokenhearted. Certainly some of those words reflect the biblical truth about the unregenerate heart. But the gospel of Hillsong is presented as the remedy to those problems””not reconciliation with God (2 Corinthians 5:19) and rescue from His wrath (John 3:36).

During our visits, we regularly heard different Hillsong teachers point out that God loves us just as we are; that He understands how hard our lives are; that He has great desires and dreams for us; that He wants to fix all our financial, health, and relationship problems; and that He’s waiting on us to let Him unleash blessing and breakthrough in our lives. But none of that can happen until we have repented of our sin and surrendered our lives in faith to God.

We’re not denying the existence of genuine victims. But in terms of eternity, even the greatest victim still needs to appreciate the depth of his own guilt in order to grasp his need for the Savior. The speakers we heard at Hillsong LA were only interested in salving our own grief””there was no thought whatsoever for how our sin grieves God.

Man Doesn’t Need to Change

The natural consequence of concealing human guilt is that it removes all need for repentance””another word we rarely heard in our time at Hillsong LA. It did fit the rhyme scheme of one or two songs, and it occasionally slipped out during the routine alter calls, but it was never explained or stressed as a necessary element of faith in Christ.

Oddly enough, Hillsong’s statement of faith does talk about repentance: "We believe that in order to receive forgiveness and the ‘new birth’ we must repent of our sins, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and submit to His will for our lives.” However, that quote only highlights the danger of taking doctrinal statements at face value. Concerning Hillsong and the doctrine of repentance, there is zero correlation between what they claim in print and what they actually preach.

For the sake of honesty, Hillsong should either conform their preaching to their doctrinal statement or conform their doctrinal statement to their preaching. As it stands now, it’s hard to see it as anything less than a devious misrepresentation. Worse still, they have congregations full of people””many of them previously unchurched””who are being kept in the dark about the seriousness of their sin and their urgent need to turn from it.

Man Is Validated

That leaves Hillsong with an emaciated, man-centered gospel. A gospel where God is the supporting cast to man’s starring role. It is a gospel that fails to prosecute men for their sins against God, and instead portrays the criminal as a victim””a gospel that places no requirements on the sinner to turn from his wicked ways. Salvation is thus reduced to God’s revitalization of the victim rather than His justification of the sinner.

Even during a discussion on the prayer acronym ACTS””adoration, confession, thanksgiving, and supplication””we were specifically cautioned against confessing sins. The confession part of prayer was instead explained as reminding ourselves and God of His promises of blessing for us””a practice commonly referred to in charismatic circles as "positive confession.” With the doctrine of depravity already in ruins, it makes sense that Hillsong turns confession into another opportunity for self-aggrandizement.

That example pretty much encapsulates the delusional anthropology Hillsong teaches to its attenders. They focus on building self-esteem rather than our need to esteem Christ. They spotlight our disappointments at the expense of our guilt. They emphasize our potential while ignoring our depravity. And all the while the Hillsong flock is left in the dark about their true need for Christ.

A Final Word

Please don’t misunderstand our purpose in this series””as though we take some perverse delight in chronicling such a theological disaster. Instead, we feel a responsibility to warn the church about what we’ve seen and heard during our time at Hillsong, and encourage God’s people to be discerning about the ministries they allow to influence their faith and spiritual growth.

We also hope these posts will be lifelines to men and women who are unwittingly drowning in theological error. The people we encountered at Hillsong LA were some of the friendliest, kindest, and most welcoming people you could hope to meet. We are genuinely grieved for them and deeply troubled by their spiritual malnutrition. It’s our sincere hope that our words will help awaken them to the truth””that they are being denied the life-giving truth of God’s Word.

Perhaps you know people likewise caught under the sway of Hillsong or another similarly weak ministry””sadly, there are many others. Pray for them, and do what you can to funnel quality, biblical teaching their way. They are not the enemy; they are a spiritually starving mission field that needs to hear about the greatness of their sin and an even greater Savior.

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sermonindex

Can we let up on the Calvinist agenda here please? You guys are blatantly disregarding and dishonoring brother Gregs request to leave this subject alone.

I know Cameron, fellow Aussie...had him stay in my house. Nice guy but terribly misinformed.

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I am no Calvinist, not a secessionist, not a replacement theology adherent and not crazy about GTY. And do NOT support Savanna's agenda whatsoever.
This article is about what the authors perceive as the false and damaging gospel of Hillsong. Can anyone please bring enlightenment to what is incorrect with the articles assessment of this movement?

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TMK

I don't go to a hillsong church but I have a lot of their music. Great stuff.

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Sorry Frank...I apologize. I know quite a lot about Hillsong and have in the past been involved with them extensively. I do not agree with all of their teaching and their stance on things but I do believe that they love the Lord and preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. Cameron is a flaming Calvinist and disagrees to the point of almost hatred with all things charismatic. He is a great guy but needs to lay off the bashing of other groups. He may be right about some things but he has in the past run his own heresy hunter website where he bashed everyone and everything he doesn't like. That's his thing and I think it is wrong and dangerous to take on the same spirit as the "accuser of the brethren". But hey, he attended John McArthurs seminary and we all know what JM thinks about the charismatics:-)

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narrowpath

[The people we encountered at Hillsong LA were some of the friendliest, kindest, and most welcoming people you could hope to meet. We are genuinely grieved for them and deeply troubled by their spiritual malnutrition. It’s our sincere hope that our words will help awaken them to the truth””that they are being denied the life-giving truth of God’s Word.]

This is my observation, too. It would be much easier if they had some obvious external faults that we could address, but most of them are really really nice people.

I have a friend who is caught up in this type of teaching. I went to their church, all rock-music "worship" soft gospel songs.He even knows a lot of scripture. His book shelf is full of the contemporary feelgood preachers.
Whenever I try to engage them in a conversation about the true gospel like proclaimed by SI featured preachers he does not see it.

He goes through a touch time and had been hospitalized for depression before. I wish I knew how to reach him.

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sermonindex

The people we encountered at Hillsong LA were some of the friendliest, kindest, and most welcoming people you could hope to meet. We are genuinely grieved for them and deeply troubled by their spiritual malnutrition.

Why single Hillsong out though...this is the state of believers in every corner of christendom. Are we really that arrogant to believe that because we have what we consider the Truth and they do not, that we are any more NOURISHED than these "second class" believers?

We may have a hold of the Truth but that doesn't mean that the Truth has a hold of us.

This is the problem with extreme religionists...they believe that they are closer to God because they have better knowledge of God, that their doctrines are correct. This is what caused the pharisees to stumble as well.

I am all for sound doctrine, but do not assume that a person who has bad doctrine has less LIFE than you.

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AbideinHim

Do the authors of this article, Cameron Buettel and Jeremiah Johnson affiliation with "Grace to You” and John MacArthur ring a bell? They are cessationists to the hilt, so they take delight in criticizing Charismatic leaders and ministries. I would read their articles with much discernment, although they do point out faults and errors in some of the ministries that they criticize, they refuse to acknowledge the good that has come through these ministries. I could bring out errors in John McArthur’s teachings and his followers such as Cameron Buettel, especially on their teachings on healing , which are contrary to the teachings of the Word of God, but I
wouldn't call them heretics.

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AbideinHim

Do the authors of this article, Cameron Buettel and Jeremiah Johnson affiliation with "Grace to You” and John MacArthur ring a bell? They are cessationists to the hilt, so they take delight in criticizing Charismatic leaders and ministries. I would read their articles with much discernment, although they do point out faults and errors in some of the ministries that they criticize, they refuse to acknowledge the good that has come through these ministries. I could bring out errors in John McArthur’s teachings and his followers such as Cameron Buettel, especially on their teachings on healing , which are contrary to the teachings of the Word of God, but I
wouldn't call them heretics.

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TMK

NP- Well, you can always give him a copy of "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God."

That will get him up to speed.

On a more serious note, I can sympathize with the criticisms of Hillsong as I make some of the same criticisms about my own church, although not publically. I have emailed the pastor a couple of times.

Our church has its weak points but it also has very strong points. We have not been released to leave the church. Honestly I have been to most types of churches but none are perfect.

The one I attended that was most doctrinally correct per the author of the OP was dead as a door nail and dry as dust.

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On a more serious note, I can sympathize with the criticisms of Hillsong as I make some of the same criticisms about my own church, although not publically. I have emailed the pastor a couple of times.

Our church has its weak points but it also has very strong points. We have not been released to leave the church. Honestly I have been to most types of churches but none are perfect.

The one I attended that was most doctrinally correct per the author of the OP was dead as a door nail and dry as dust.

I agree and while many of the Hillsong churches may very well be part of "Babylon" it is dangerous for us to judge and categorize in a broad brushed way.

Yes brother Todd, every single church and movement has their strengths and weaknesses. We must love one another regardless because if we are without love for our brothers that is the greatest weakness of all. Terminally so:-(

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Perhaps the biggest problem with Hillsongs lies in its very name: the songs are given prominence; preaching comes second.

The apostle Paul didn't have a worship band in tow when he cut a path through Europe and Asia Minor, preaching the Gospel with signs following. Today so many contemporary churches (not just Hillsongs) have bought into the idea that we have to get people into "the zone" through worship music first, then their hearts and minds will be open to receive the Word. This is not Biblical at all!

That, and the commerciality of it all---so many contemporary worship songs (by Hillsongs and others) are modeled on secular music. Marketing trends, not time in the prayer closet, are what drive the creation of so many of these repetitive mantras which pass as "worship."

I've played guitar for 38 years, and could share a lot of experiences I've had (both good and bad) in different churches' music ministries.

Much of today's CCM (contemporary Christian music, so-called) I find to be mind-numbing and musically inferior---certainly not heavensent!

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Heydave

Here my personal story connected with it. Quite a few years back our two daughters (both then in their twenties) had recently come back/comitted their lives to the Lord after some time living in the mire of the world and all that entailed. A friend of their's invited them to go up to a Hillsong service in London. My wife and I were concerned as we knew enough about Hillsong to know they were not sound. However we decided not to tell them not to go, but let them see for themselves as thet had come back to the Lord with a real deep commitment and repentance.
On their return they told us it was all just like a staged rock music show, just the sort of thing they had come out of and not real worship or teaching. Entertaiment. To them it was so easy to see the error of aping the world.

I agree it is not just Hillsongs, it seems that this type of thing is more and more common. Really it is a franchaise business, making the people at the top very rich. I bet the one thing they do all preach is tithing!

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TMK

Alec- what kind of music would you suggest a church use? Organs? None at all? Just curious.

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On their return they told us it was all just like a staged rock music show, just the sort of thing they had come out of and not real worship or teaching. Entertaiment. To them it was so easy to see the error of aping the world.

I agree it is not just Hillsongs, it seems that this type of thing is more and more common. Really it is a franchaise business, making the people at the top very rich. I bet the one thing they do all preach is tithing!

I cannot disagree with that but I would not say ALL Hillsong churches are like this because they are a part of a much larger denomination back in Australia. I knew a lot of really good brothers who, while they have upped their worship services accordingly, they still have not sold out if that makes any sense?

And for many of the kids involved with these churches they do not know any better, or anything else for that matter...this is all they have grown up with. And I am not talking about Hillsong now. I am talking about the show and the good sermon and the whole "Sunday Morning Experience". If the presence of God is not there then it doesn't matter if they have music or not or if they have watered down mushy sermons or expository sermons. Where is the Lord Jesus in all of these carry ons? Where is the Lord? Where are the people coming around the Lord and worshiping in Spirit and Truth and being broken before Him and one another?

That is the big tell tale sign for me...if the presence of the Lord is nowhere to be found we have to ask why?

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sermonindex

Todd (TMK) wrote: Alec- what kind of music would you suggest a church use? Organs? None at all? Just curious.

If you're banging on more than two coconuts at a time, then you've crossed the line. ;)


Seriously, I said I've played guitar for 38 years - I didn't say that I no longer do so. I have no problem with any number of instruments, or none at all (a capella voices). I was talking about worshiping the Lord in Spirit and in truth. Few people in today's church music compose at Bach and Handel's level. I have no problem with music of various cultures/nations in sincere worship either, so I'm all for that.

What I have a problem with is SHALLOWNESS in worship music, both musically and lyrically. There is a lot of musical laziness in contemporary Christian music. Much of it is patterned after groups like U2, a secular pop/rock band which first became famous in the early 1980s. I also have a problem with worship songs which address our Lord as if He were someone's boyfriend. It is neither reverent nor doctrinally sound.

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The article states

"Effectively, Hillsong’s leaders seek to enable and empower a latent human condition."

If true how are they different than Joel Olsteen's me gospel?

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staff

Sorry I submitted twice
Staff

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staff

Hi All,
Interesting discussion and I guess part of the original post was saying how poor the preaching was,in essense.
A Pastor friend of mine pointed out to me that really if Hillsong didnt play some good sounding music then no one would be at all interested in their preaching anyway.
If I saw a Hillsong Preacher on Tv i'd switch to Hawaii Five O immediately,I would have no interest in hearing their ramblings.However when I hear some of their music its different.
Christian Music has fundemental problems.(not the words the music)
1:The majority of it is off poor standard
Worldy music(the best off it) is light years ahead in terms of quality and we wont accept that,we are living in denial.
2:It has even created a style/genre of its own "worship" that the world plays in some of their songs but has no effect on the world
3:Worship music is mainly for the church anyway so in a way you could say thats ok but all the other forms of Modern Christian music are going down a dead end street.Why?well you cant play their stuff on a Sunday Morning on the one hand and on the other the world doesnt listen to it because most of it is off Poor Quality.So all its message is lost too because its not up to scratch.
In that sense and only through that lens do I have respect for some of the Hillsongs Music,it brought the standard up at times.
Sorry for being so blunt but its a subject that Ive been grapling with for a couple of years.
Remedy??
Ok this is what Ive come up
We need to have Christian Music that is off the Highest Standard.We have an advantage on the world in this regard,we have the great creator on our side and we need to become inspired by him and we need him to be involved in the creation process.
Thats all simple put God at the centre of our music creation,thats has to be the starting point,
Yours Staff

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AbideinHim

One of the great privileges that we have as children of God is to come into God’s presence with thanksgiving and praise. We should be doing this out of a heart of love and devotion to the Lord, not for what we can get out of it, but every time we do come into the Lord’s presence, we do benefit from it greatly, because from glory to glory we are being transformed in to His image.

To be a praise and worship leader at a church is a real ministry that is for the purpose of bringing the congregation into the presence of the Lord. It is not for us, but for Him, for He alone is worthy of praise. There is so much scripture concerning praise, worship, and music, in our individual lives and the corporate gatherings of the Body of Christ.

In most churches where there is a blend of the grey heads with the youth which is a good thing by the way, the older saints prefer the old traditional hymns and the young people like the more contemporary music. There is no one style of music that God prefers. The Lord is looking for those that will worship Him in spirit and in truth. The Lord is looking at our hearts.

If the praise and worship music is directed towards the Lord, for the glory of God, and it is bringing people into the presence of the Lord, then it is fulfilling it’s rightful purpose, and is pleasing to the Lord. If the music is directed towards the people and is designed to please man, to make us feel good, to give us thrills and chills, then it is no more than the music of the world that appeals to the soulish nature of man.

So what about Hillsong and other contemporary groups. Is this music of the Lord or is it’s basic purpose to stir up the emotions in men? I believe for the most part there is a great mixture here. For much of the music that Hillsong has put out does indeed inspire worship, and many young people especially are worshipping the Lord and entering into His presence. Now on the other hand, there are some songs that have very little spiritual value to them.

The good thing is that young people, instead of indulging in sex and drugs are in the House of the Lord, worshipping the Lord. The bad is that they are receiving from the mixture of that which is of the flesh. It should be the desire of the pastor and the leadership of the church to purge out that which is not pleasing to the Lord, and encourage that which is of real spiritual value. To shut it all down would be to drive the young people out of the church. The main objective of any church should be to see that people are saved and are disciples of Jesus.

It was no different today than it was with us in the late 60’s and 70’s. Most of us that came out of the Woodstock generation and were saved did not switch over night to listening to sweet Christian hymns. We just switched to rock music with Christian lyrics. This did not cause a problem to God, and we worshipped with many of the older saints that were happy that we were in church and not out on the streets getting in trouble anymore. Many of us back then loved the old hymns, because the words of the songs were real worship to the Lord and ministered life to us. Over the years before I was saved, I had accumulated quite a music collection from everything from
the Beatles to Led Zepplin. I remember the Lord dealing with me about destroying all of that old music that was so much a part of the old man that was suppose to now be dead, but had a bad habit of coming off the cross at times.

This is why I can have compassion towards young people that are caught up with contemporary Christian music. If they are born again, filled with the Spirit, and under the teaching of the Word, the Holy Spirit is more than able to
deal with them, and as their discernment grows, they will be able to filter out the mixture of what is truly bringing glory to the Lord, and what is pleasing to the soulish, fleshly nature of man.

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staff

Hi Abideinhim,
Very balanced view of things,I like your post and the fact that you take Ages and Times into account and that we are work in progress.
One point that crosses over to what I was saying earlier:
Quote:
. Over the years before I was saved, I had accumulated quite a music collection from everything from
the Beatles to Led Zepplin. I remember the Lord dealing with me about destroying all of that old music that was so much a part of the old man that was suppose to now be dead, but had a bad habit of coming off the cross at times.

My point is that their is nothing wrong with the majority of the old music(most of it is way better than Christian music) its the lyrics thats the problem and because you would also associate any old music from the beatles with the lyrics of the that same song that could be a problem.
For instance the music from the song "Let it Be"Now if the original words put to that song were Christian that would be a fab Christian Song but they are not unfortunatly
The Point is Music is Music is Music for the most part it doesnt see saved or non saved .We just dont seem to be any good at it
Yours Staff

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sermonindex

Staff said:

"For instance the music from the song "Let it Be"Now if the original words put to that song were Christian that would be a fab Christian Song but they are not unfortunatly"

You mean something like this: Set him free from Apologetix

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGqMvaHS9eE

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MrBillPro

TMK....I don't go to a hillsong church but I have a lot of their music. Great stuff.

Amen Brother Todd, if only we were all perfect, but then there would be nothing to discuss here. :-)

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Heydave

Staff wrote: "My point is that their is nothing wrong with the majority of the old music(most of it is way better than Christian music) its the lyrics thats the problem and because you would also associate any old music from the beatles with the lyrics of the that same song that could be a problem."

I don't agree that it is only the lyrics that are a problem. The spirit of a person comes through the music they play and write, so even just instrumentals can have spiritual effect, good or bad. Remember David playing his harp to King Saul? I have also witnessed many times godly lyrics sung in the flesh and even rocked up so as to become ungodly.

I also was into all the rock bands such as Led Zepplin, etc way back in the day and before I got saved. They were all pretty much into the occult and used of Satan to destroy many lives. Much the same as the present day ones are.

Worship leaders, bands, etc are not at all biblical for the church. Show me where this ministry is listed in the NT as one of the gifts God gave to His church? Most of the Hillsong type worship groups are just frustrated pop singers trying to get an outlet for playing and performing what they are not good enough to do to earn money from. This is why it seems sub-standard compared to what they are attempting to copy from the world. IMO of course! :)

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sermonindex

Worship leaders, bands, etc are not at all biblical for the church. Show me where this ministry is listed in the NT as one of the gifts God gave to His church? Most of the Hillsong type worship groups are just frustrated pop singers trying to get an outlet for playing and performing what they are not good enough to do to earn money from. This is why it seems sub-standard compared to what they are attempting to copy from the world. IMO of course! :)

Absolutely that is just YOUR opinion. We do not know the hearts of any of these kids. Let's examine ourselves brothers that we don't cross over from being truth seekers to taking on a mean, critical spirit.

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sermonindex

There is a spiritual power in music, it can be very good, it can be very, very bad. it is certainly not neutral as some say. What is in the heart of the presenters will eminate from their beings irrespective of what the surface sounds like. David could have played the second side of Abbey Road's guitar solo's and bless the Lord with it without his harp because it was David a man after God's own heart playing it.

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TrueWitness

There is constructive criticism and then there is condemning attacks coming from animus. John MacArthur and his ilk are masters of the latter. He has stated that the whole of the charismatic movement are unsaved! I am sure there are some unsaved people in charismatic churches and all churches for that matter. If he acted grieved over lost charismatics I might feel differently about him but so far I only see a man with little or no love for those he criticizes. What if God was like that toward us? God help us all.

I found a critique by Michael Brown of John MacArthur critiquing charismatic worship that I thought was spot on. Please take time to watch it by clicking the link:

https://askdrbrown.org/library/dr-brown-responds-john-macarthur-todd-friel-charismatic-worship

-Daniel

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sermonindex

There is constructive criticism and then there is condemning attacks coming from animus. John MacArthur and his ilk are masters of the latter. He has stated that the whole of the charismatic movement are unsaved! I am sure there are some unsaved people in charismatic churches and all churches for that matter. If he acted grieved over lost charismatics I might feel differently about him but so far I only see a man with little or no love for those he criticizes. What if God was like that toward us? God help us all.

This is the danger behind these threads and the accompanying questions such as "I just want to know if this guy/article/doctrine is correct". Sometimes it is not a genuine question because those who post these threads have already made up their minds. What they are doing is stirring up a critical spirit...whether that is their intention or not.

Look, I get it...I use to be mad against all the garbage out there and I used to frequent the heresy hunter websites as many here apparently do...but all that did for me was confirm what I already knew PLUS it turned me into a bigger gossip than I already was. Because those kinds of websites are really nothing more than gossip sites with a few tidbits of usual information thrown in. I am not talking about discussions to warn the body of Christ of clear and blatant sins of public celebrity pastors/wolves...but everything else on these sites.

So who are the bigger sinners, the so called false teachers or those of us who gossip about them???

H
Heydave

Mark, why do you assume we are talking about ' kids'. Hillsong leadership is not made up of kids. Brian Houston is 62! Hardly a spring chicken. Same is true for most of the local hillsong church leadership around the world. Yes they do appeal to the youth culture to lure in the naive kids, but the problem is the movement and the responsibility is with those who lead it.

Really it is a pointless discussion, because these types of church systems are just part of the false babylonian church in these days. Just take a look at what they teach and and how they perform. It's success is a marketing phenomenon, just like starbucks!

S
sermonindex

I could post the naked cowboy and scantily clad dancing girls video that Hillsong presented recently but that would be judging so I will not.

H
Heydave

Yes exactly Frank!
And I could post the advert on Hillsong London website for the job of 'Production Manager', to manage the 'production' of their Sunday service, but that would be judging them for seeing the church gathering as a production that needs a professional person to make sure it all goes to plan like a concert, so I won't.

B
brothagary

when i saw hillsong allow men like creflo dollar preach in there pulpit ,that was it for me ,he is of the worst type of prosperity preachers there is...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSqi2LCJ7iU

B
brothagary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSqi2LCJ7iU

S
sermonindex

Most of the Hillsong TYPE worship groups are just frustrated pop singers trying to get an outlet for playing and performing what they are not good enough to do to earn money from.

Dave, this is your exact quote. And my response is you do not know the heart of every kid who plays music for churches around the world...or even the Hillsong churches for that matter but I am addressing your very general statement, that is all.

Its never a good idea to presume we know the motives of mens hearts, especially if we have never met them or no anything about them except that they play in the worship band of a hillsong type church.

S
sermonindex

Really guys? Do you actually think none of us are aware of the watered down crud that goes on in the name of Christ? What is the point of this sarcasm? We are not unaware of the false gospel that is presented as the true gospel but when you get into grey areas and start talking about job adverts and stage presentations and styles of music and what you believe is the motives of mens hearts...you are beginning to stray from being constructive to becoming whiney and critical.

If its not your cup of tea just move on and leave it alone. You gain nothing by continuing on this course, trust me I have been down this road and I know where it leads.

H
Heydave

Well it is a generalisation and I did say 'most', which is my general feeling and opinion, but no obviously I don't know the heart of every person involved, but the context of my comment is this Hillsong discussion.

The point of the job advert is valid...it shows the state of such churches and how they operate as an entertainment business I expect Crefo Dollar's message fits in well with Hillsong as it reinforces the need for giving to increase the cash flow they need to keep the show on the road.

You seem quite defensive about this, do you know some people involved in thiis or similar type of church?

S
sermonindex

Double post

S
sermonindex

Defensive? Lol...if anyone has a right to bash those of whom you are speaking of it would be me. In the past I have bashed the living daylights out of them and criticized and passed much judgment on those of whom I knew nothing. There is no love lost between me and any of the characters of which we speak but thats between me and the Lord.

We do not know these men, including Brian Houston and those he runs with. I do not agree with some things he says and many of the things he does but I am not his God. God will sort him out in the end. Just as God will sort me out in the end too.

Dear brother I am sure you may be right about so many things that are wrong with others and I will let you go for it from here on out. As for me I need to keep judging myself on a continual basis. That is where my judging focus will be directed. What you do is up to you. If I came across as defending unrighteousness I sincerely apologize because that is not my heart. God bless you Dave.

S
staff

Hi Franklira
Yes thats exactly what I mean.If we had not had the beatles original version that song would be remembered for the great melody and christian words and although wouldnt have been selling power of the beatles would still be a hit,
Yours Staff

S
staff

Hi Heydave
I did say the majority of it but its the way they play thats different as well, not nessacaryily anything to do with the melody.
Ok listen to this Piano version of Stairway to heaven by led Zepelin.Its a beautiful melody played on piano thats all it is.
David had a ministry for music and verse and in his ministry their was power.We dont produce a high standard of music is what im saying and I find it amazingly difficult to listen too

LINK REMOVED BY MODERATOR

We need to produce high quality melodies as a starting point and we are just not doing that
Yours Staff

S
sermonindex

Saints,

We are locking this thread as the profitability of the discussion is wanning.

Towards beatles or Led Zepelin, they are satanists and antichrist and there is "no place" for Christians to listen to or link to their music.

Their music is listened to many who went to hell as they listened, surely this is not the music we want to hear and listen to with dry eyes. It should disturb the Holy Spirit in us, as the music is given by inspiration of the enemy and not God as its fruit is evident in culture.

This thread is locked.

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