Believe means what, exactly?

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [John 1:12]Hi there y'all at Sermon Index ! I have been reading the Gospel according to John for about 1 year now. You have gathered it is my favourite read. Now apart from the obvious Greek translation of the word, 'Believe' I am interested in learning how others interpret the exact meaning of that word in the context of this verse.Clearly the receiving aspect relates to those from among the people who were around while Jesus was on earth, and the term 'believe' relates to those who would believe after his ascension. We are often called, 'believers' but in this context what do you understand the word 'believe' means?In Jesus,Eric :-o

I believe that embarking on your own quest would bring you the biggest reward (ex a word study, studying Biblical characters, .. whatever. )I found that my own search registered in my mind better than receiving the truths second hand. That's how I dicovered that belief/faith is linked to obedience. I will share the results of my own quest - though I'm sure that God can lead you to something that really speaks to you. "The Obedience that Comes by Faith" http://www.thewayback.net/articles/obedience.htm

Yo, Stever and Roadsign: Thankyou for your responses so far. I spent a little time loading up Reidhead's - Cost of Discipleship, and after 10 shekels and a shirt...I was ready for a lot more of Reidhead's preaching...The opening part of 12, dealt with this subject of believing ~ the first command certainly does cover what sort of quality belief God expects of us. The complete submission of the will, the mind, the emotions and the character. The exact opposite to a life married to one's own interests and merely paying lip service to the statement, I believe.In Jesus,.A. :-? Roadsign, I am definitely have a read through you whole site, thanks!

Clearly the receiving aspect relates to those from among the people who were around while Jesus was on earth, and the term 'believe' relates to those who would believe after his ascension. Not to get too technical but the root idea of 'receiving Christ' is not only referring to those alive during His earthly ministry. Col. 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: This word actually means to receive to yourself, or take. The Colossian believers had 'taken Jesus Christ the Lord' and could now 'walk in Him'. We can't begin the walk until we have 'received Christ'. However 'receiving Christ' in the Bible doesn't mean what the modern church uses it to mean, viz responding to a preacher and praying a sinner's prayer.If you have the time to read it this article may be a help.Believing and the noun faith is a main theme of the Bible. The first time the word is used is of Abraham's faith in Gen 15:6 where it says 'Abraham believed in the Lord'. If you think on that passage you will discover many of the key truths of faith. Abraham is the Bible most persistent example of faith, so if you consider his life and walk you will see what the Bible means by faith.

Hi philologosOfcourse, how stupid of me, the passage in Colossians is classic !Thanks for the pdf by Ron Bailey on Receiving Christ. This will be a most pleasurable read.This subject of love and faith... love is always the greatest of all. To love Jesus fully, is to believe correctly. When those first disciples followed Jesus, they left everything followed him.In Jesus:-D I enjoy Graham Kendrick...'Truimph in the Air'

The word believe is central to the message of the Gospel of John. Specifically John 20:30,31.So the meaning of it needs to really be clearly defined. I am going to have look at it's meaning in context of the first command of God.In Jesus, :-P

to 'believe' is to respond to God's revelation with affirmation. Believing starts with God; faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. There can be no 'faith' without God's personal utterance. We live by every word 'that is proceeding out of the mouth of God'. Our words are voiced by our breath; God word is voiced by His breath (Spirit). When there is no breath there is no voice and no possibility of hearing.God has His different ways of 'speaking' but we can only respond when He has done so. This is how Christ expresses the process of faith...“He that hath received his witness hath set his seal to this, that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for he giveth not the Spirit by measure. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:33-36, ASV) I have opted for the ASV to emphasise the 'witness'. Putting our seal to a thing is the ancient world's equivalent of 'signing it'. We agree with what has been written and we put our authentication sign on it. There is a powerful Bible thread on this whole matter of 'sealing'. The king's seal carried all the king's authority and was backed up by all his resources. Our 'receiving of His witness' has to be 'sealed' personally by us. We have read the document and we put our whole life behind it by adding our seal.In the metaphor here, God has spoken in the person of Christ, and to believe it to put my whole confidence and backing to that statement. It is an 'amen' that gathers up all my being.There is another aspect of truth revealed earlier in John (and John is one of the best places to go to understand 'believing). “Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, during the feast, many believed on his name, beholding his signs which he did. But Jesus did not trust himself unto them, for that he knew all men, and because he needed not that any one should bear witness concerning man; for he himself knew what was in man.” (John 2:23-25, ASV) Again I have gone with the ASV because of the continuing link with 'witness' and because it brings out a different aspect of the truth found in the KJV.The words underlined above are the same word in the original. It is the Greek word 'pisteuo' which is translated by two different English words. This is instructive. They put their 'faith' in Him because of the miracles but He did not put His 'faith' in them because He knew what was in man. There is a 'faith' in Christ which is founded on His miracles. It can be a step in the right direction but it is not what He is looking for. He cannot build or trust that kind of faith. The purpose of John's gospel is “But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” (John 20:31, KJV) This is not faith in what He can do, but faith in who He is. Upon this faith He can build...“And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:16-18, KJV)This is Peter's faith, not in what He can do, but in who He is.Faith, ultimately, must be in the person. “And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.” (Gen. 15:6, KJV) Of course, Abraham believed what God said, but he believed it because God said it.

8-) Thanks, philologosI believe that the proper understanding of what it means 'to believe' is contained in the first commandment.ALL....And the Lord's Prayer. Thy will, not my will.THY WILL...BELIEVE ON~[ALL...SUBMITTED TO] THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. [THY WILL]Paris Reidhead, really makes this point so clear in 'The Cost of Discipleship' ~ Part IIPaul boldly claims that his own wisdom was abandoned infavour of Christ and Him Crucified, his own wisdom he regarded as dung.All through the Gospels, Jesus always requested a complete surrender. From his very first word, 'Repent!' Believe means what, exactly? I feel a song coming on: "All to Jesus I surrender, all to Him I freely give...."In Jesus,.A.:-P

Hi Amy small contribution is,that there is a continuation with believing and going or carrying on in belief.I have seen many take the scripture you cite in isolation and make a mental decision about following Christ to then fllounder when hard times come.Its been said before,Even the devil believes in Christ, so we must be talking about a much deeper experience of believing :-)

Hi Delboy,I agree a mental decision is no more than lip service, there needs to be the complete surrender of the will, when we first come to Christ. The words to this song by Phil Keaggy says it quite well:-In the distance there stands a wild horseProud and persistent to run it's own courseEntering through no other doorsBut those he has made for himselfIn his own eyes, he's the prince of allClever and wise, he heeds to no callEver denies that he could fallDepending on nobody elseAs time went on he came upon the thought that he was lonelyHe felt the fear, he cried the tear, He knew he was not the onlyThe rider whose name is True begins to seekAnd He opens his eyes to find, His stallion meekThen came that moment, with no-one in sightBut a horse with no name, and the rider in whiteFilled with compassion for his plightThe stallion he claimed for his ownAs time had past there came at lastThe lifting of his burdenHis strengh renewed, with gratitude and joyHe became a servantThe rider has come in view, His form uniqueAnd He's chosen to ride upon His stallion meek.copyright 1976 Free Love PublishingIn Jesus,.A.:-P

Hi A,great lyrics,forgive but let me carry on the pictureMany wild horses become muzelled and are forced under control via a bridle to every onlooker the horse looks under control but is'nt.When the TRUE rider comes He knows the horse and sets the horse free to be...of course the picture like all pictures fall short of the fullest,this came to mind while reading the words from the song. :-)

I believe that the proper understanding of what it means 'to believe' is contained in the first commandment. It is, in that the first commandment requires obedience which is an activity of faith.“By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.”(Heb. 11:8, KJVS)... by faith Abraham... obeyed.

“Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.”(Psa. 32:9, KJVS)

Yo philologos: [your certainly are busy on this thread.] Looking at the true meaning of believing, always has two aspects. God's part and our part. I spent many years focussing on God's part, and then realized that in order to really present the truth, I needed to understand 'our part'.Keith Green's two articles, have really opened the eyes of my heart. [What's wrong with the Gospel?][What's missing from the Gospel?] He spoke about the function of the Law in the winning of others to Christ. Jesus spoke of how the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin, [why?] because they do not believe...[]...believing in John's first epistle always links obedience and believing together.Whoever said, simple is easy, forgot that 60 000 pages of information is extracted from one strain of DNA.In Jesus.A.:-P ps. Oh yeah, I agree with you about Abraham, especially the direct references to him in James. The other reference about horses, seem to also come up as [wild] tongues..in James again..the small member that can steer the whole body. Amazing.

Unless God is revealed there can be no faith. Getting back to the issue of 'Faith' and Christ being set forth evidently among the people; I had a few passages of scripture come to mind as I was meditating on these things. The one deals with the woman at the well in John 4 and how the revelation of her life by Christ revealed in her the reality of Christ. It is as though when our Lord manifest this woman’s life a light went on inside her and she ‘perceived’ that He was a prophet. The longer He spoke the greater the light became and she then considered that He might be the Christ. As He manifest ‘her’ to ‘her’- He manifest Himself to her.Here we see the results:Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ? Then they went out of the city, and came unto him (v. 29-30). The other is in the Old Testament and deals with the revelation of Sarah laughing and the Lord hearing it. When she was confronted by the Angel she denied it. Yet what did he say to her; nay, but thou didst laugh. I believe that this sealed her faith in God like nothing else could have. It is the most comforting rebuke that a human being could possibly experience. It is as if Sarah could say, “yea I didst laugh and so too I shall have a child in mine old age.” The revelation of her heart was a revelation of God to her. When God revealed her to her- He revealed Himself to her.So too then we must have the manifestation of God in our midst in some real prophetic way. We often think of the Corinthian church as carnal- and yet when was the last time someone came into a meeting of ours and fell on his face knowing the God was among us based upon the revelation of his life before God. Here we read:But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. (I Corinthians 14:24-25). I don't mean to blur two different threads here- but it seems evident that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word (rhema) of God. God used a few different means in the above illustrations to accomplish the same end. He 'manifested' the person to the person and in so doing manifested Himself to them. These are personal encounters with God that cannot be ignored- only resisted. The individual walks away knowing that God has dealt with them. I believe that this is the great missing element in our evangelism efforts. The question is; "Is Christ set forth evidently among the people?" Is their verifiable 'evidence' that God is among us?God Bless,-Robert

Oh most definitely you are right on target RobertW.But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [John 1:12]This was the original scripture that this thread is meditating upon, and asking 'Believe means what, exactly?' The following Scripture has many elements of this as well; don't you think?:The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.Joh 20:25-31 In Jesus.A.:-P

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [John 1:12]To confess (hom-logeo)what the Word of God states concerning our sin and His Christ.I was thinking on Abraham. The scripture states that he believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. Oft times in his life he did not live like he believed God, absence of faith, so to speak. After chpt 20..... something happened, he started living his faith manifested.preacher_ish

Could it be that because Christ is not set forth evidently among the people that the whole message has to be altered and manipulated in order to get folks to 'respond.' For example; to present God as a God of holiness without some sort of demonstration of His majesty would yield 'pharisee' converts. There are not many people n that line in this generation- so the message gets watered down because there is no demonstration of God's majesty in order to encounter the one whom they are being asked to come into covenant with. What happens? The terms of the covenant are watered down in direct proportion to the absence of His majesty. And we wonder why there are so few converts?God Bless,-Robert

Oh you are so right on target, RobertW.'Could it be that because Christ is not set forth evidently among the people that the whole message has to be altered and manipulated in order to get folks to 'respond.'I was washing dishes and thinking and listening to Tozer on the mp3 player. 'Why some can't receive the Holy Spirit.' It is evident that though man changes the Gospel, God does not change his standard. I have this strong conviction inside me that the term 'believe' in context [John 1:12} means a complete surrender of the will to Jesus Christ. Philippians 2:9-11[check this text]I think it is time to reel in the big guns, you know the old commentaries etc....The older the better, does anyone have a commentary of this by Martin Luther, or Erasmus. Or older.... Oh we are so lost without proper understanding. Lord, open the eyes of my heart.Here we go,In Jesus.A.:-P

aeryckI wouldn't put myself among the 'big guns' but some months ago I did a series of written devotionals on Abraham and spent several weeks examining the nature of Abraham's faith as we see it in Genesis. If we meditate patiently in these scriptures we can see that Abraham's 'justifying faith' is very carefully expressed.The relevant weekly sections begin here and you will need to read from week 24 to week 30 to pick up all the bits and pieces. Abraham's faith has to be reproduced in us and the scriptures give us some wonderful insights into Abraham's faith.Abraham, My Friend Week 24Abraham, My Friend Week 25Abraham, My Friend Week 26Abraham, My Friend Week 27Abraham, My Friend Week 28Abraham, My Friend Week 29Abraham, My Friend Week 30

Bro. Ron, Do you have that entire series in one big pdf file by chance?Thanks,-Robert

Thanks Philologus,Thanks for the links, I hope to get there when I have time, this is a simple meditation and I do not want to get tied up. As you might guess working on a book envolves much research. [I have three outstanding..lol]'But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.'my quote: 'It is evident that man has changed the Gospel.........' So just what does believe really mean? In Jesus.A.8-)ps. Easy enough, just click on the left hand side of the top bar. :-P

Do you have that entire series in one big pdf file by chance?sorry, I don't.

'But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.'my quote: 'It is evident that man has changed the Gospel.........' So just what does believe really mean? We are discussing something very relevant on this thread..what does believe mean?Abraham is the Bible's definition of faith. Bible words don't have definitions, they have histories and Abraham is the Bible's potted history on the topic of faith. We have to have 'the faith of Abraham' (Rom 4:16) There is no short cut, to understand 'faith' we must understand Abraham.

Philologus:I am looking simply at the meaning of the word in context*.So either stay with it or don't. In Jesus :-P +++The flow:-*John 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 'It is evident that though man changes the Gospel, God does not change his standard.'

I am looking simply at the meaning of the word in context*.It refers to 'the believing ones'; those who are in a constant state of believing and whose life is characterised by their constant believing. 'believe' here, in its grammar, is not an 'act' but a 'disposition'. The 'believing ones' that John has in mind, are continually disposed to put all their trust Christwards; this is the force of the Greek preposition 'eis' which in this verse is translated 'on'. In Hebrew thought the Name is the Person. These continually believing ones are constantly orientated Christwards in their trust. These continually-disposed-to-believe-towards-Christ persons are able to do so because they have been 'born of God'. These were they who when they 'received' Christ's witness personally where given the right to become children (not sons) of God. That is the meaning of the word in the narrow context of a single verse.

Yo Bob !Like the fragrant smell of C.S. Lewis's tabakee,You have caused the Daystar to rise in this old pilgrim heart.Thank-you brother.In Jesus,.A.:-P

Dear Robert, I was not entirely happy with my response to what you said. You really brought up an extremly valid focus on the Majesty of God. It was amazing how as I was looking up the Scripture about 'the day star' this morning, that I noticed 'majesty' ~ it was then I remembered your comment, and here it is again: Your quote on 2005/6/15 17:38:29Could it be that because Christ is not set forth evidently among the people that the whole message has to be altered and manipulated in order to get folks to 'respond.' For example; to present God as a God of holiness without some sort of demonstration of His majesty would yield 'pharisee' converts. There are not many people n that line in this generation- so the message gets watered down because there is no demonstration of God's majesty in order to encounter the one whom they are being asked to come into covenant with. What happens? The terms of the covenant are watered down in direct proportion to the absence of His majesty. And we wonder why there are so few converts?Here is the Scripture :- [2Peter 1:16 - 21]For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.In Jesus,.A.:-P This is the meaning of the word 'believe' in the simple context, of John 1:12 :- courtesy of Philologos:It refers to 'the believing ones'; those who are in a constant state of believing and whose life is characterised by their constant believing. 'believe' here, in its grammar, is not an 'act' but a 'disposition'. The 'believing ones' that John has in mind, are continually disposed to put all their trust Christwards; this is the force of the Greek preposition 'eis' which in this verse is translated 'on'. In Hebrew thought the Name is the Person. These continually believing ones are constantly orientated Christwards in their trust. These continually-disposed-to-believe-towards-Christ persons are able to do so because they have been 'born of God'. These were they who when they 'received' Christ's witness personally where given the right to become children (not sons) of God. That is the meaning of the word in the narrow context of a single verse. This is the commentary from Bible.org by W.Hall Harris III Th. M Ph. D [ John 1:12 ]toi'" pisteuvousin eij" toV o[noma aujtou' A note on John’s use of the pisteuvw + eij" construction: the verb pisteuvw occurs 98 times in John (compared to 11 times in Matthew, 14 times in Mark [including the longer ending], and 9 times in Luke). One of the unsolved mysteries is why the corresponding noun form pivsti" is never used at all. Many have held the noun was in use in some pre-Gnostic sects and this rendered it suspect for John. It might also be that for John, faith was an activity, something that men do.41In any event, John uses pisteuvw in 4 major ways: 1. of believing facts, reports, etc., 12 times;2. of believing people (or the Scriptures), 19 times; 3. of believing “in” Christ” (pisteuvw + eij" + acc.), 36 times; 4. used absolutely without any person or object specified, 30 times (the one remaining passage is 2:24, where Jesus refused to “trust” himself to certain men).Of these, the most significant is the use of pisteuvw with eij" + accusative. It is not unlike the Pauline ejn Cristw'/ formula. It also appears to be a literal translation of the Hebrew ‘ b /ymah (see BDB s.v. /ma). Some have argued that this points to a Hebrew (more likely Aramaic) original behind the Fourth Gospel. But it probably indicates something else, as C. H. Dodd has observed: “pisteuvein with the dative so inevitably connoted simple credence, in the sense of an intellectual judgment, that the moral element of personal trust or reliance inherent in the Hebrew or Aramaic phrase—an element integral to the primitive Christian conception of faith in Christ—needed to be otherwise expressed.”For a detailed study follow this link: hereW. Hall Harris III is Professor of New Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary and is also the Project Director and General Editor for the NET Bible (New English Translation).For over twenty-five years Hall has taught at Dallas Seminary courses in intermediate level Greek grammar and syntax, exegetical method, and various courses in the Gospel and Epistles of John. He received a Th.M. from Dallas Seminary and a Ph.D. the University of Sheffield, EnglandWow! where did the time go...? :-P

Do you have that entire series in one big pdf file by chance?I have it all in a word doc or pdf, e-mail me at mark.nash@rbos.com and I'll send it to you or anyone else who wants it.I have it with page breaks (at the end of each devotional) or with no page breaks.Let me know if you want it zipped up as well.

Well done ye Nasher,That must have taken you a fair while to put together that study. Anyone else with a Commentary that opens up this passage a little wider? But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [John 1:12]Have a Gnash on Paris Riedhead's : Cost of Discipleship, the entire audio of the 12 part series is well worthy of a listen, especially part 2 which inspired me to write this thread in the 1st place.plus. A really radical commentary on the whole Gospel of John, from Bible.orglink hereThere is also a direct link to 'Abraham my Friend' by Philologos, on this thread, cliketh readeth.Thanks for all the comments.In Jesus.A.:-P Nasher's email again: mark.nash@rbos.com - for those of you wanting a full study by Philologos on Abraham my friend.

Hi aeryck,These things are not original really. They are just my reflections on the subject as I hear seasoned men and women of God speak to the issues as well as what I have studied and observed. Listen to some of philologos (Ron Bailey) sermons here on SI as well as GW North. I think their finger is closer to the pulse of things than most I have heard and read. What it boils down to in our generation is that there are the things that folks faith is standing in:1) The wisdom of man2) The 'Power' of God Men come up with cunningly divised psychological and crafty remarks that tickle the ears and warm the hearts, but they are 'synthetic' truths. You can string words together in such a way as to make a statement sound 'anointed' as an oracle- when in reality it was just an expression of eloquence or 'word smithing.' Listen to Paul in I Corinthians 2:4-5And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom,... The word for enticing comes from the word Peithos and it means to 'persuade'. Paul says here- I do not try to persuade people to faith in Christ with man's wisdom. If we look at some other passages we find him saying it again. Here we read:And I, brethren, whenI came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. (2:1)Paul declares plainly that he did not rely on mere 'words' to convey the Gospel of God. Again, if man can be 'talked into' accepting Christ- he can be 'talked out of' abiding in Christ. This is where we have jumped the rails in ministry. If we have no 'demonstration' we have no ministry frankly. And the result? The faith of folk is standing in the wisdom of man and it does not lead them to Christ and our churches are filled with folk whose faith is founded on something 'other' than the power of God. It's a game really. See how many people we can persuade to come forward with our selection of words and fluctiation of voice. Add a few tears to the mix and we have a good dose of the 'wisdom of men'. this is alien to the fulness of what Paul is speaking of. We see a similar word used here: But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. (II Corinthians)This word means literally, "to throw beyond." He seems to be saying that the driving force behind their ministry is not rooted at all in themselves- but in God. Here we read again:But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. How does is the truth manifest to the people in Paul's ministry? He answered that already in his previous letter to them ( I Corinthians 2) Here again: ...but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: that your faith would not stand in the wisdom of man but in the power of God.This 'demonstration' in our generation has been craftilly substituted with 'mysticism'. The mysticism is eastern in origin and is in no wise biblical. Meditation in scripture means 'to speak aloud'. It is not some deep trance like meditation akin to TM. The 'demonstration' is the working of God in and through the people via the fruit and gifts of the Holy Spirit. Paul stated that this ministry appeals directly to the conscience of man. Why? because man's conscience speaks on behalf of God. It is hard to make your conscience go along with something that is 'false'. It is unaffiliated with the heart and mind and simply calls it as it sees it. This is THE missing element in ministry. We can make crafty sermons and give crafty speeches. We can teach until high noon. We can string words together worthy of the King James oratory and not have a single drop of anointing though we have have a lot of eloquently strung facts. The question is, when you open your mouth are you speaking the very oracles of God? Is it the sword of the Spirit- or is it the word distilled into some sort of scalding acid that gains a reaction- but cannot heal. A word from God will be first pure, peacable, gentle and easy to be entreated (so on and so forth). By way of analogy it will be "PH" balanced or at least will be no more or less 'caustic' than necessary. It will be a manifestation of truth that carries with it saving faith that will be 'established' in the Power of God. God Bless,-Robert

Yo, RobertWNice of you to 'answer back' but are your ready for a strong rebuttal, or will that cast a shadow over 'your truth' which you claim is not yours but others.Let us be straight up here, as I was with Philologus. What do you believe, the word believe means in the selected Scripture?In Jesus,.A.:-P

Nice of you to 'answer back' but are your ready for a strong rebuttal, or will that cast a shadow over 'your truth' which you claim is not yours but others.Go ahead, I can handle it.Let us be straight up here, as I was with Philologus. What do you believe, the word believe means in the selected Scripture?In a general sense 'belief' is simply our right response to the Holy Spirit. The devil's 'believe' and tremble. Trembling is not a right response to God- repentance is. When I say repentance I mean to change your mind in such a way that your alter your course from Sin to God. Faith according to James has 'breath' or 'life' or else it is dead. Belief that results in verifiable evidence is one aspect of faith. Yet, many 'believe' or 'have believed'. The question is are we 'believing' as a state of being. In order to 'stand fast' in our faith it must be rooted and grounded in the power of God. This is not intellectualism. This is a 'biblical' presentation of the Gospel rightly responded to. Many concerning the faith have made shipwreck. But if we continue in the faith grounded and settled we shall do well. It takes an ongoing faith to remain in "THE Faith".

or will that cast a shadow over 'your truth' which you claim is not yours but others.As a point of clarification I am not stating the statements of others verbatim-I am merely saying that the 'concepts' are not original. How I have grafted them into my personal theology is no fault of theirs and may not reflect their opinions entirely or even partially.God Bless,-Robert

RobertW,Thankyou for your 'non-original concepts':In a general sense 'belief' is simply our right response to the Holy Spirit.The devil's 'believe' and tremble. Trembling is not a right response to God- repentance is. When I say repentance I mean to change your mind in such a way that your alter your course from Sin to God. Faith according to James has 'breath' or 'life' or else it is dead. Belief that results in verifiable evidence is one aspect of faith. Yet, many 'believe' or 'have believed'. The question is are we 'believing' as a state of being. In order to 'stand fast' in our faith it must be rooted and grounded in the power of God. This is not intellectualism. This is a 'biblical' presentation of the Gospel rightly responded to. Many concerning the faith have made shipwreck. But if we continue in the faith grounded and settled we shall do well. It takes an ongoing faith to remain in "THE Faith". It is uncanny how few are prepared to express genuine perceptions of their own, for either fear of rejection, or for some of the reasons you have expressed.It is my firm conviction that a humble and truthful confession far outways the endless mumblings of regurgitated truth of others.Until one can reach that level of honesty and simplicity, we will not convince this world. We need to suffer for the sake of what we believe, not what others believe.Bless God!In Jesus,.A.:-PPhilologos' earlier 'non original concept':It refers to 'the believing ones'; those who are in a constant state of believing and whose life is characterised by their constant believing. 'believe' here, in its grammar, is not an 'act' but a 'disposition'. The 'believing ones' that John has in mind, are continually disposed to put all their trust Christwards; this is the force of the Greek preposition 'eis' which in this verse is translated 'on'. In Hebrew thought the Name is the Person. These continually believing ones are constantly orientated Christwards in their trust. These continually-disposed-to-believe-towards-Christ persons are able to do so because they have been 'born of God'. These were they who when they 'received' Christ's witness personally where given the right to become children (not sons) of God. That is the meaning of the word in the narrow context of a single verse.Indeed my pipe is filled with fragrant tabakee, From the heart of C.S. Lewis to you and me.+++ the term 'non original concept' is in actual fact a very truthful expression by the above concerning the simple meaning of the word 'believe' in context of the verse John 1:12

Until one can reach that level of honesty and simplicity, we will not convince this world. We need to suffer for the sake of what we believe, not what others believe.This is a serious oversimplification of what I am saying. What have you learned that you have not received? I am not trying to distance myself from the truthes themselves- I am making you aware that they do not originate completely with me. I.e. I do not wish to take the credit for the revelations of other men and women. BTW, I take full responsibility for my theology. We know in part and we all are still learning.

aeryckfor these concepts I accept full responsibilityIt all begins with God's revelation of His will to the heart. From then on...Wrong response to revelation is sin“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17, KJVS)Right response to revelation is faith“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Rom. 10:17, KJVS) or as it might equally be translated 'faith originates in the speaking of God''believe' in John's gospel presumes something in which one believes. I know you would prefer this to stick to a single verse but language does not work like that. The word 'believe' did not suddenly spring to being in this verse. It has a history, and to ignore the history is to destroy any possibility of true exegesis. The word 'hosos' translated 'but' in the KJV is a 'correlative pronoun' which 'correlates' to the preceding verses and tells us that we cannot start here in our understanding of the verse. To force the conversation to do otherwise is to abandon all possibility of a right understanding.The synoptics speak of 'the gospel' but John does not use this term. In keeping with the purpose and style of his record he uses the word 'witness/record/testimony': a term he uses over 30 times in his writings - John 1:7,19; 3:11,32-33; 5:31-32,34,36; 8:13-14,17; 19:35; 21:24; 1John 5:9-11; 3John 1:12; Rev. 1:2,9; 6:9; 11:7; 12:11,17; 15:5; 19:10; 20:4 (if others have the inclination the theme can be pursued in the appendix to an article called "Receiving Christ" To John the coming of Christ is the coming of the Word of God; the faithful and true witness. The purpose of John Baptist's work was to "bear witness to the Light, that all men through Him might believe". This is John's first use of the word 'believe' in The Witness of John (usually known as the Gospel of John). The purpose is plain; John Baptist's work is to point to The Witness so that those who hear will 'believe' what the Witness is revealing about God.Consequently it is as 'The Witness' that Christ was rejected “He came unto his own, and his own received him not.” (John 1:11, KJVS) The word 'received' here is different to that in the next verse; this is paralambanO which means to take to one's side or as it is sometimes expressed 'to welcome'. He came to His own place but His own people turned Him away. BUT to as many as 'received' Him; this is the more usual word 'lambanO' meaning to take or receive. As many as did so were given the right to become the children of God; in the NT 'sons' often draws attention to relationship. This is the word 'child' which draws attention to family likeness. cf “I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.” (John 8:37-39, KJVS) The contrast between paternity and family likeness is made very clear.I believe I could justify a case here for a loose paraphase "to those who received His witness, to them he gave the right to share the family likeness". He calls these to whom the right to share the family likeness is given 'the believing ones'. As I mentioned in a previous post this construction points to a discernible characteristic. This is not a single act of faith; John never uses the word 'faith'. This is the continuing process of 'believing' The Witness. These who do so are they who are 'born, not of blood(s), nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.' The 'believing ones who were given the right to become the children of God' were 'born of God'.

Yo U2,So the word believe in the context, certainly needs to be clarified to those who are in darkness.I just feel the intensity of God's Holy command to love Him, with all our heart and mind and soul, grabbing hold of me so hard, and not letting me get away with a simple. Yes, I believe in Jesus.If it is anything less it can not produce the sort of fruit that John in the Epistles clearly states as a direct sign that has to be there if we are to be not of the world, and to have the love of the Father dwelling in us.How will this happen if believing means anything less that the complete submission of the will.My only example is the testimony of Charles Finney.It is this strike at which I have been about since I first spoke, my pathetic truth onto these threads.Be whatever it may, I hope that you will accept my warmest blessing in Jesus, for all your patient words.In Jesus,.A.:-P

I just feel the intensity of God's Holy command to love Him, with all our heart and mind and soul, grabbing hold of me so hard, and not letting me get away with a simple. Yes, I believe in Jesus.The whole jest of the context of these forums rejects the whole of easy-believism theology. Maybe I was not listening very close but now I conclude that we we saying near the same things all along. I sure felt a lot of conflict for so much correlation. :-?

Hi RobertW,It would seem so, I am pleased about this. I was afraid that there were some of the doctrines of Charles Taze Russell, under the surface. I am careful very, very careful knowing that we can very easily be beguiled away from the 'simplicity which is in Christ'. That pure and undefiled total devotion to Jesus, that is the measure of our readiness for His return. Russell had some heavy stuff about Abraham, that he built into a sort of Universalism. So many of this doctrines are very subtle and can engulf one. If one does not have pure devotion to the Scripture, I am continually picking myself up by my bootheels and getting my focus right. So much literture, and the media are saturated with things like Secularism and Humanism, we watch we are being affected, it is sometime painful. I have had a disgusting passion for books and I will read and read and become absorbed until on one particular morning, I recieved a green cared in my mailbox, no envelope and very childish handwriting...all it said was.Many books may inform, but only God's Word can transform, I was totally aghast. I was blow away.I just sat there and looked at this green card and wondered, how on earth. Whew, it was radical, God knew I was burning up my heartlight with all this stuff....So I now make a concerted effort and check on myself daily, everyday I take on my will, and well the results are GLORIUS, God really speaks to me through his word, and most important of all, I have, VICTORY in my life.I like what Derek Prince said, about how he was healed of excema, he had it really bad, he just took his medicine three times a day after every meal, God's Word. And what doctors could not, God's word did. Wow.I cannot now imagine my life without this.In Jesus,.A.:-P

Yo Philologos, whew you really got my head in a huge knot. No harm. You seem to use a lot of words to make a point. Unfortunately with this you seem to have made many points. The final point I love, though for this is the direction that flows, 'Born of God' after all we have Nicodemus up ahead. So much. In truth, as I have been listening to all the Scriptures in this book, I am being more and more confronted by the word 'believe'. It is like growing a beard for the first time, suddenly you notice everyone has a beard. Seriously, the impact of this one word should not be underestimated.BELIEVE ! It is amazing that Jesus could not do miracles because of unbelief. We cannot be saved if we do not believe. We cannot effectively pray if we do not believe. This is really new for me. As I looked at the power. Jesus asking, 'Do you believe' Yes, Lord help me mine unbelief.It is so huge. Enough, I will be accused of starting a new craze, the believers, ooops sorry that was what they were called, believers....hahahaha it is so funny, I stumbled across that today. I always thought of myself as a disciple. In Acts I think that is where they are called believers, 'the way' etc.To end, let me just peg this one straight up, I am not oppossed to letting this thread flow in different directions, I guess I just did not know how you guys were all a buzz here at CF. I am seriously stoked to be among so many wonderful sisters and brothers in Jesus. I am a little startled. giggle.Now back to the word, 'believe' it is a word with immensely huge dynamic, add this to Jesus, and one leaps over building in a single bound.Goodnight, it is way past my bedtime...old men need their beauty sleep. In Jesus,.A.:-PShalom.

Hi Robert, your mailbox is full so I can't send you the file or an e-mail to tell you this.

In truth, as I have been listening to all the Scriptures in this book, I am being more and more confronted by the word 'believe'. It is like growing a beard for the first time, suddenly you notice everyone has a beard. this is always a good sign! When God gets our attention we do discover that the whole Book is just about this one thing. My reaction has constantly been 'now, I'm going to have to go back to Genesis and start all over again'. When God has worked this into the weave of your character you may expect Him to move on to the next thread.As regards differences of expression, Churchill was right, we are 'two peoples separated by a common language'.

Ha! Philologos, Going back to the beginning of the letter, would be far enough, for me, right now. Infact I am reading Isaiah and John at the same time. Well, I read John a lot, I have been through Isaiah 'quite' a few times. They both seem to have a common stream, 'pun intended'. I love reading John though. We are certainly different in this regard. Allow me to explain by way of a story.'In 1982, thereabouts. Due to the nature of military service in SA, at the time, though I had finished my compulsory training, I was still eligible for 12 years of camps, about 1-2 months out of every year. The hair would be cut the beard trimmed. In my case the old apache beard would be lopped of by their barber. Hence the whole humiliation and degrading thing. I am not sure but back then the first great copies of the NASB had come out. It was regarded as the greatest study bible of the time. I digress.Well, upon entering the bungalo at the Airforce base, they had no space in Simonstown for campers, that is what we were called, and as I entered the door of the bungalo, it was immediately clear to me that I was going to fast. I do not understand fully the mechanism, and am not requesting a teaching on fasting. So the fast duly begun, I placed my NASB in clear view on the table in my section of the train like bungalo.Days went by, and I am not sure of the date, be it the 6th or 7th or whatever. Rising on what was to be the end of the fast, I noticed how beautiful the sunrise was, fasting as you know heightens one's sense awareness, well it does so to me.Approaching my new bible, I opened it to a place and it just happened to be John 1:1. I began reading and by the time I had got to verse 2, I understood what is contained in verse 14. [before getting there.] I understood that Jesus is the Word.[in my innerbeing]I was dumbstruck at the implications. Hence, that particular text has been one that always reminds me: that what upon the surface merely seems to be a combination of words, when fasted over and read is entirely different. One might say there is another story behind the words of the human author, and that is the story of the Divine author.So it is that I have a snail like approach to revelation and am not with haste to attempt to assemble further knowledge until the veil has been lifted and the Holy Spirit then leads me to the next passage. How may I say it; 'that was 1982, and I am only on verse 12 at the moment.' So you are right about going on to the next verse. However, whereas you seem to have assured yourself that the passage has reached it's point for you, it is certainly not the same with me. John 1:12 is still very much part of 2005 for me. The Holy Spirit does clearly move differently in each of our lives, and sometimes we share common airstrips, even common jets. I am reminded of the Neverending story when the good luch dragon turned to the hero and said, "Leaving so soon........." It is much the same for me in prayer. 'When you get up to go, that is the time you should sit down and begin.'In Jesus,.A.:-P

I have been meditating again in John. The whole 'record' is an aid to believing cf “And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” (John 20:30-31, KJVS). There is often an assumption among Christians that John is the ultimate evangelistic tract but as with all the gospel accounts he is really writing for the 'converted'. Believing, for John, is a continuing process not a moment't spectacular leap. To those who had 'believed' He warned that 'continuance' in His word was what created disciples and that only disciples would know the truth that would make them free. “As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:30-32, KJVS) This is so different to the easy believism which many of us were raised with.For John, faith/believing is setting to it your seal that God is true. “He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.” (John 3:31-33, KJVS) In other words, personal authentication of the word spoken into the heart. The 'amen' of the whole being.The famous John 3:16 is important in this context.“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”(John 3:14-16, KJVS) See the kind of 'believing' that is in mind in these verses. It is the desperate gathering up of the last dregs of our strength and pinning everything onto one glimpse of the snake on the pole. Nothing else can in the slightest alleviate his condition. No antidote, no support groups, no effort, no attack on snakes, no promises not to get bitten again... just a look. This is bible faith, everything on one shot. As Amy Carmichael used to quote "upon a life I did not live, upon a death I did not die; on another's life, another's death... I stake my whole eternity. This is 'believing' in John's record... all our eggs in one basket.

Philologos,Do you believe that all scripture is inspired of God?A simple Yes/No will suffice.In Jesus,Aeryck.:-P