Serious Legal/Spiritual Question and Advice

All,

I have a very serious question and have offered my own thoughts on this but would greatly value some further input. I recently heard a story (I do not know this individual personally) about an individual who has been saved for a short time that made a serious confession.

Many years ago before this person was saved this individual confessed to their Pastor that he murdered six people and wants to turn himself in. When I say years ago, I believe it was about 20 plus years and this person had since gotten married and has a family.

He is convicted in his spirit and plans on turning himself in after the new year. He realizes he will probably go to prison for life and possibly worse.

I know Tim and Todd have legal backgrounds and just curious to what they might think.

This individual has discussed this with his family and they all seem to be on board.

I am praying this individual does not grow faint in heart and that the Lord will give him the strength and courage to do the good he knows and has been convicted to do.

This man is doing the right thing and would be miserable if he did not.
God will be glorified if a man obeys God even in such a horrible set of circumstances. I agree with you in your prayer, Dfella.
L

David- Tim would have much more insight as I think he does some criminal defense work.

Do you know the circumstances of these killings?

I have read of other cases where someone turns themselves in years after the crime and it could result in favorable treatment but with 6 killings I can't see that happening- but by confessing he would avoid the death penalty- I think.

The Two scenario's from the Scripture that I can think of is Moses and David, I do not recall either one of them bringing themselves under the wrath of the Legal/Justice system.

All that I am doing is providing the Scriptures that come to mind.

Can anyone think of any Scriptures that gives an example of someone whom got things right with the Lord and than afterwards went about making reconciliation by turning themselves over to secular legal/Justice system ?

Moses murdered a man, he fled the legal/Justice system untill the Lord pointed out to him that those whom would have prosecuted him where now dead and therefore it now was safe for him to return.

David did get things right with the Lord but this did not include him making reconciliation by bringing his deed before the legal/Justice system and embracing the punishment that that system of the time required.

If he is being convicted by the Holy Spirit to do so he has no other recourse but to obey - unless he wants to lose his salvation and be miserable.

There is this thing of reconciliation that should happen between the offender and the victim whether the offence is punishable by law or not. Remember Zaccheaeus...remember what Jesus said after he declared his intention to reimburse people he had defrauded? "Salvation is come to your house." No sweeter words could have been said.

Sandra

Obviously, I am not a Calvinist...

Sandra

RE: /// Obviously, I am not a Calvinist...///

I am not so sure that I would be quick to accuse Tuc of being one either.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=58390&forum=34&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=1

Tuc wrote: "I am not sure how the Holy Spirit can convict him of a sin that God does not remember."

I can't tell if you are serious or not.

Thank you Leslie I agree with your sentiments as I have been praying about this situation for about a month now. The two counseling with this man are pretty much just being there for moral spiritual support and letting him do all the talking and confessing.

Thanks Todd, I have no clue as to what the law will do in this case. My thoughts are it is better to obey God and the leading of the Holy Spirit than to worry what man might do. I also thought of these families who also deserve closure regarding their loved ones death.

The positives to this is that this man would be bearing fruit meet of his repentance by turning himself in and would have a platform to share why he is turning himself in. The only circumstances I know is that this man was in a motor cycle gang years ago and the people I believe he murdered may possibly have been other gang members or factions.

Proudpapa, I agree that he is forgiven but I believe the system we live under here in this country and time we have to obey the laws of the land. Our laws tell us that murder is wrong and punishable by law, just because we might be forgiven by God does not allow us to escape the consequences. If I were a Christian and a Judge, I believe God would want me to carry out the duties of the law I was sworn to uphold. So if this man appeared before me and confessed and told me he was confessing because he was now a Christian, I would consider him a brother in Christ but I would also have to hold him accountable.

I believe this man is showing forth fruit of his repentance, turning himself in is actually being a doer of the word and not a hearer only. We have a young lady who is 28 years old missing here in Michigan. She has been missing for 3 weeks, I can’t imagine what this family is going through. But the most important thing always that people say when they have a loved one turn up dead is that they want closure and justice, a reconciliation of sorts as Sandra said.

I have heard people plead with killers on tv asking them to do the right thing and turn themselves in.

I remember a testimony from years ago I saw on the 700 Club. A young man was murdered during a drug deal gone bad. The mother of the man that was murdered was led to visit the man who killed her son, she preached the gospel to him and told him she forgave him. This man was born again as a result of her love, compassion, and forgiveness and she ended up adopting him as her own son.

Remember Ted Bundy? All those women he murdered? God only knows if this man was truly repentant but James Dobson went and visited with this man and preached the gospel to him. If he did get saved, praise the Lord! But just because he was saved does not mean he is above the law and consequences of that law which was death in his case.

Amen Mark, thanks for the prayers, may Gods will be done and may he receive all the glory! Thanks for all the thoughts, prayers, and input.

Todd, Tuc is serious. I don't take him seriously but he is serious.

The brother--and I do not blink at calling him one -- is doing what is right.

As Ulysses Everett McGill said in "O Brother Where Art Thou?", "That's not the issue Delmar. Even if that did put you square with the Lord, the State of Mississippi's a little more hard-nosed."

I do not contend that every violation of civil law requires from God that one answer for it. Human law simply does not carry true justice within it. But, this confession is one that transcends human conventions about wrongdoing. He has made himself accountable to God and is washed in the blood of the lamb. But, clearly the Holy Spirit has brought Himself to bear on the brother's born-again conscience and says "Confess. Account."
I believe He does so in such instances as this. Lives were not just lost but others shattered.

I pray for God to have mercy on him

This is a very complex situation. There are christian authors who before their conversion killed people in various circumstances, but did not seem went into prison. Murder and homicide is a crime defined and prosecuted according to the existing legal statutes which may differ between nations.

We do not know the exact circumstances of the case a
at hand, it maybe disastrous to suggest a sort of reckless confession at the moment, admission of killing even in a clear case of self defense is a legal disadvantage. I am not a lawyer, but been in court for years as a technical witness.

At the moment, I will consider even the unpopular opinion of 'proudpapa'.

RE : /// The only circumstances I know is that this man was in a motor cycle gang years ago and the people I believe he murdered may possibly have been other gang members or factions.///

I figured the scenerio was gang related.
I am reminded of the answer that : remove

As far as those whom are in disagreement with me , I simply gave the Scriptures that came to mind.

Outside of Sandra's bringing up "Zaccheaeus" which I feel was not a good parallel. It does not seem many others brought up much Scripture.

When I said : ///"Zaccheaeus" which I feel was not a good parallel.///

By that : I mean I did not feel it was as direct of a parallel as the examples that I gave.

He did not go the Roman Government and tell them : "You will need to arrest me and punish me because I have been skimming off the top.

Some years ago the bank presidents son murdered his girl friend. Shot her, burned her, and fed remains to his dogs. Having thrown the police completely off his trail, and feeling guilty he went to our pastor (he didn't have any connection to our church) who led him in salvation.
To make things right, he went to the police and confessed. Because of his confession he was only given several years in jail and now is a free man (in more than one way).

I really appreciate the dialog, thoughts, and prayers for this man and I don’t even know him personally. One of my favorite scriptures in the whole bible talks of us letting every man being fully persuaded in his own mind. I do pray that Gods perfect will be done in this man’s life and in doing so he will be at peace, filled with joy, and a salty shining light to those around him.

In my ponderings this is a portion of scripture that has come to mind.

Luke 14:26-35 KJV If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (27) And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. (28) For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? (29) Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, (30) Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. (31) Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? (32) Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. (33) So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. (34) Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned? (35) It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I believe the law of restitution is fitting even though one cannot necessarily give back the life he has taken. But making a mends to that life’s loved ones I believe is important and a cost one must consider.

Charles thanks for sharing that testimony, there is no telling on this side of glory how God used this man while in prison as a laborer for the Lord.

If I was fully convinced in my own mind and from the scriptures all this man had to do was confess his sins to the Lord and his Pastor in this situation I would be more than happy to.

But if I put myself in the shoes of someone who had a loved one taken from them through murder which is a crime before God and man would I just be satisfied with a confession?

Proverbs 28:13 ESV Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.
Absolution from our sin and its consequences requires a confession and a forsaking of the sin. I just cannot get past the "consequences” part of our sins. Just think about Adams sin and what has been passed unto us all, its physical death. But even though physical death is a consequence, it is only temporary.

If I were involved in counseling this man, I would lay all scenarios out before him, and let him decide.

One of my best friends did ten years in prison for murder, tragic circumstances to boot. But there is no question that God has used that tragic incident, his time in prison, his testimony, and his life after prison for some very amazing things for the Kingdom of God.

Thanks for the input again, and the prayers. It’s a ripple affect, we have no idea where those ripples will lead once we cast that prayer into the water. Man, I look so forward to eternity!

God Bless!

One more thought, what would "I" do if I had a loved one who was murdered (I actually have a friend of our family who was murdered and the killer was never caught) and then one day a person came and confessed that they were the killer?

The reason they gave me was that God had saved this person and he felt he needed to make it right with me.

If the fruit of repentance is undeniable, and there is a bearing of both our witnesses before the Lord. What would I do? Forgiveness? Absolutely! Embracing? Absolutely!

Would I or could I be satisfied with that alone? I believe I could be without a doubt. Would I turn this man into the authorities? Should I turn this man into the authorities?

As a believer and a love for the brethren, that supernatural bond we have with one another, I could be happy with this mans confession before God and me. But it just would not stop with me, what about the rest of my family? Would/Could they be satisfied? If so, amen.

But what if this man said he wanted to confess to me first and then turn himself in? Would it be right to deny him what the LORD is leading him to do? I think not.

Why am I pondering this so? Why are we pondering this so? I am convinced there is a purpose that this ministry, website, and all involved have a purpose in this mans life and the furtherance of Gods Kingdom.

You are all a great encouragement to me, and trust me, it is no small part.

This is a real life event, it happened in Tamil Nadu, India, many years ago. There was a man who was once convicted of 2 murders. The judge gave him capital punishment which is death penalty. The man was in prison waiting for his execution. In this time he met few Christian missionaries who were in prison for sharing the Gospel of Jesus which was against the state law. They shared the Gospel to him. He accepted the Jesus as his savior. His conversion from a murderer to a disciple of Jesus was a real one.

A time came when he was asked whether he wants to write a letter asking mercy from the Judge so that his death sentence can be converted to life sentence. He wrote a mercy letter to the Judge. In that letter he mentioned that, "Bible says in proverbs 28:13 that - 'He who conceals his transgressions will not prosper, But he who confesses and forsakes them will find compassion'. I want to confess that I have not committed 2 murders but 5. The other 3 were not even charged on me. But now that I am a Christian I do not want to hide those facts anymore. I am willing to cooperate to find the bodies of victims. Now regarding the mercy plea, if you feel that you want me to live then please convert my sentence to life imprisonment, else you can proceed with the actual judgment. I do not worry about my death because I know my sins are forgiven, I know after I die I will be welcomed by Jesus. "

The judge who was not a Christian, cannot believe what he read. He has never read a mercy plea in which a convict accepted more charges against him than what was actually charged. He however confirmed his death penalty but responded to the letter saying - ' I am sure you will meet your Jesus in heaven because your faith is real'.

The convict was hanged and before his punishment when asked what was his last desire he said he wants to preach about Eternity to those who gathered. He preached how eternity is more important and how he is now eternally secured. He then sang a song '/Jesus loves me', which became a famous hymn in Christendom.

I do not think that they are the same thing.

Your friend should do what he can to pay back the money.

But I do not see any need for your friend to turn themselves in to the legal system.

I do not see sitting in prison costing the tax payers over $30,000 a year as restorative.

Paying back money stolen is restorative.

RE : ///Both situations involve other parties being "hurt". Seems the right thing to do in both situations to go to the "hurt" party and put things right. This is the teaching of Jesus and this is the teaching that Zacchaeus obeyed.///

Do you have any Scriptural evidence that : Moses , David or Paul did what you are suggesting : as a way to make things right ?

Repentance is essential for salvation. But restitution is not mandated, though it is highly appreciated by God. One reason why it is not mandated in scripture is, the complexity surrounding restitution. Not all things can be restitution. For example if a man has behaved inappropriately with a women during his younger age. Now if he goes and tries to restitute, then this action of his can even break the current marriage of the victim. We have to be wise. In this case as well, the victim might have been hurt, but now that she is married to another man, it is good not to remind her of the painful past.

In Zacchaeus case, Jesus said salvation has come to his house even before Zacchaeus actually restituted the money he cheated. Just the heart to return them back was good enough to Jesus. So if our heart is right before God, then we are good enough to receive His salvation.

Restitution is always a good act, it will create a good testimony for the Lords sake.

After Moses Murdered the Egyptian :

Exodus 2:15

Now when Pharaoh heard this thing (Moses had Murdered the Egyptian), he sought to slay Moses. But Moses fled from the face of Pharaoh, and dwelt in the land of Midian:

Acts 7:28 Wilt thou kill me, as thou diddest the Egyptian yesterday? 29Then fled Moses at this saying, and was a stranger in the land of Madian,

"David was a murderer and an adulterer. Both crimes were punishable by death under the law of Moses."

With Paul it is unclear to me if the murders that he committed where within the bounds of the Roman Law or not.

None of the above saw it needful to bring themselves under the wrath of the legal/Justice system of there day. That is obvious by the fact that they where neither imprisoned nor received the death penalty for there acts of murder.

It is clear that Moses was even found out about and fled for the purpose of avoiding the consequences for his actions.

RE : /// A quick word about Moses, who "fled from the face of Pharaoh, and dwelt in the land of Midian"
God didn't instruct him to flee and He doesn't tell us: "go and do like wise...///

God did instruct him when it was safe to return Ex ch 4 v 19.
add : And He did not ask him to return before it was safe for him to return.

Quote: It is clear that Moses was even found out about and fled for the purpose of avoiding the consequences for his actions.

It is not 100% clear that Moses was not justified in his action.

David is a much tougher case. But since he was king there was no higher authority to appeal to.

But I think appealing to the OT economy is not helpful in addressing a NT issue.

Bottom line: if HS is telling him to confess, who is he to disobey? Would the devil tell him to confess sin?

I have more thought's but do not feel a need at this time to share them.

Bro Greg wrote this :

RE: /// I believe we should pray for this individual and that he would be very repentant before God and be led by the Holy Spirit. The grace of God frees from all of the worst sins of the world. for some it is hard to understand this.

But also the Lord desires at times for us to give restitution and suffer consequences of the sins we committed that were forgiven on earth. Only God can clearly lead the individual what to do.///

I feel that was very well said !

This discussion reminds me of a message that I heard by Leonard Ravenhill found here on SermonIndex.

Purity and Fire - Part 2:

http://ia601003.us.archive.org/4/items/SERMONINDEX_SID0686/SID0686.mp3

It continues in Part 3:
http://ia601003.us.archive.org/4/items/SERMONINDEX_SID0686/SID0686.mp3

To hear the part that I am referencing, you can fast forward to 18:24.

In this message, Brother Ravenhill spoke about bringing forth "fruit unto repentance." He mentioned the people who came to John the Baptist and how they would say, "WHAT SHALL WE DO THEN?"

He argued that you should make amends -- repair fences -- whenever possible. If you stole something, return it. If you lied, confess it.

He mentioned that he had once kicked a ball through a window as a schoolboy. After he was saved at the age of 14 (and after he had already left school), he said that the Lord told him to go back to the school, confess and offer to pay for it. He also went to a store owner in which he had stolen something from his son when he was six-years-old. He went to that store owner's home, confessed and brought money to pay for it.

Brother Ravenhill's experience is similar to others. I think that David Wilkerson wrote about gang members who came to Christ through his ministry in New York City who went and confessed sins to the police.

I suspect that many believers have similar stories. We may not have confessed to crimes like murder, but we may have lied, cheated or stolen something.

I think that this idea of making things right is very important. Moreover, you can argue that it is actually breaking the law to NOT confess. If this is a real murder case, then it is still unsolved.

Remember when Paul was brought before Festus? Festus asked Paul if he was willing to be tried for the crimes of which he was accused. Paul responded, "If, then, I am a wrongdoer and have committed anything worthy of death, I DO NOT REFUSE TO DIE; but if none of those things is true of which these men accuse me, no one can hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar" (Acts 25:11).

You never hear people opposed to capital punishment on spiritual grounds quoting this passage. Paul knew he was innocent -- even if the world might have found him guilty anyway. Paul could have easily gone free -- but he appealed unto Caesar and chose to go to trial before the ruler of the empire. Paul did this to bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to Rome.

Who knows? The spiritual consequence of a murderer turned Christian turning himself in might have some very important eternal consequences. Such a testimony might have an amazing impact on many lives.

*EDIT:
Here are links to all three parts of Leonard Ravenhill's message "Purity and Fire:"

Part 1:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=869

Part 2:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=871

Part 3:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=872

Chris, Your point is well stated. Yet I would respectfully submit that not confessing is not a violation of the law. In fact it is specifically set out in the US Constitution and every state constitution that every person, even a guilty person, has the right to not say anything to incriminate himself and cannot be compelled to do so. It is lawful and right under American law to remain silent about your own crimes.

Hi dolfan,

Thanks...and you raise a good point. I certainly appreciate a good refresher of the Fifth Amendment.

I was thinking more along the lines of misprision -- not speaking about a under 18 United States Code, Section 4 ("Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both") -- but I suppose that has more to do with concealment.

I was also considering certain instances in which a person is asked whether they had a criminal history (even unreported crimes) with regard to an application to the military or as an officer in the state. Then again, I suppose that the federal constitution would trump state and local laws regarding self-incrimination.

Still, I shouldn't have injected that notion in my post anyway. For me, this is more of a spiritual and moral issue. The guilty often go unpunished on this side of eternity and those who have been made innocent by the Blood of Jesus Christ might face consequences in this temporary world.

I suppose that this isn't a completely black-and-white scenario -- because restitution cannot be made in any way other than a confession and the peace of mind that the families of the victims might receive from it.

In the example that I mentioned from the sermon by Leondard Ravenhill, he spoke of confessing to that store owner that he stole something when he was a boy. Yet, he also mentioned that the store owner was a drunkard who would use his wife as a punching bag -- which I think we can safely say was a crime too. Would the store owner need to confess to such crimes after he came to Christ too?

At the same time, a prosecutor would probably be unwilling to charge a man for beating his wife if his wife didn't press charges or cooperate with authorities. I don't think that there are statutes of limitations with murder as there are with other crimes (given the "ultimate" nature of such crimes).

Hi David

I have seen this scenario before and these are the lessons i learned from this.

A man came to our church who had changed his life in christ, when he sat with my pastor he explained that a few years back he had committed a serious robbery and that it was playing on his mind and wasn't sure what to do. My Pastor said yo him let us pray and let the holy spirit direct you in the path he wants you to take. After prayer the man stated with a calm smile that the lord had plans for him but he will need to hand himself in. He said to the lord that he will hand himself in as long as he looked after his wife and kids.

He got a lighter sentence but the miracles God did in his life while in prison where amazing and he and his family are serving the lord strongly.

Our father has perfectly orchestrated his purpose in our lives and when we listen to him, he will take us through the trials of fire with out being burnt.

This is between Him and the Lord not for anyone else to stand in the Holy spirits role. Prayer and fasting until the man knows for sure deep in his heart which way the Lord wants to take him. then and only then can he walk in the assurance of Gods promises.

Just what i have seen personally