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Is Alcohol Use Among Christians The New 'Golden Calf'? by Shane Idleman

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sermonindex

The person who consumes alcohol walks a very fine line between freedom and sin, responsibility and carelessness, liberty and abuse””over-indulgence can even disqualify a person from leadership (cf. 1 Timothy 3). This discussion is not about a glass of wine or beer now and then, it’s about abusing liberty. Damage done to families and individuals through alcohol use demands a closer look. Almost one out of every three traffic deaths involve someone who was driving while intoxicated. (My wife’s brother was killed in 2000 because of a drunk driver.)

Pastor John MacArthur states what many of us feel but seldom discuss, "It is puerile and irresponsible for any pastor to encourage the recreational use of intoxicants””especially in church-sponsored activities. The ravages of alcoholism and drug abuse in our culture are too well known, and no symbol of sin’s bondage is more seductive or more oppressive than booze.” I couldn’t agree more. The trend of young Christian leaders consuming alcohol on a regular basis is alarming. Many will look back and regret the damage that was done to lives, churches, and their own testimony.

Pastor Darrin Patrick, in his book Church Planter, writes, "As I coach and mentor church planters and pastors, I am shocked at the number of them who are either addicted or headed toward addiction to alcohol.” David Wilkerson adds, "Alcohol is now the modern golden calf, and millions of people, young and old, male and female, have been seduced by it.” Many counseling appointments are because of alcohol and drug abuse. Add to that the amount of domestic violence cases and the number of abused children because of alcohol, and we would be remiss to ignore its dangers.

Alcohol abuse, among other addictions, presents a sad commentary on the spiritual condition of the church today. We often flaunt liberty and laugh in the face of God’s grace by posting our favorite beer brands and wines on Facebook, all under the guise of "exercising liberty.” While Romans 14 discusses personal freedoms, it also has strong warnings "not to do anything that will cause others to fall” (vs. 21).

Consider the following:

The Bible never encourages crossing the line. With today’s promotion and acceptance of alcohol, many easily cross the line. A preoccupation with alcohol is just one indicator of alcoholism; a preoccupation with drinking at events or social gatherings is another. Some even bring out their private collection of hard liquor after having a few drinks. This is not liberty; it’s addiction.
We assume that the alcohol content today is the same as in Jesus’ day. In His day, a little water was often placed into the wine and thus decreased the alcohol content (cf. 1 Timothy 5:23)…much like an O’douls today. "Strong drink” were drinks with higher alcohol content that led to drunkenness. Ale beer, for example, often has two or three times more alcohol than normal beer. Those having two ale beers may have the equivalent of six regular beers.
"Jesus ate and drank with sinners.” "But there is no suggestion in Scripture that Jesus purposely assumed the look and lifestyle of a publican in order to gain acceptance…” (John MacArthur). We should fellowship without engaging in the practices of a secular lifestyle. The world will know that we are Christians by our love and by our convictions, not by how well we imitate the world around us. We seldom hear non-Christians say, "I’m turned off by Christians because they seldom compromise.” But we do hear, "Christians who say one thing and do another really turn me off.” Guarding against compromise isn’t just a good idea, it’s absolutely necessary when it comes to preserving our testimony. "Be not among winebibbers…” (Proverbs 23:20).
It has been suggested that Jesus drank often. Not true. We find only purposeful incidents of Jesus having wine over the course of three years, and not very often. Today, many Christians center everything around alcohol””fellowship, events, birthdays, bible studies, etc. When alcohol is the center of attention, it becomes an idol and an addiction. This is why many will be offended by this article.
Jesus was filled with the Spirit…holiness flowed from every area of His life. This cannot be said of those who consume alcohol regularly. What is the fruit of today’s preoccupation with alcohol? Conversations often turn away from God, if they were there to begin with. We begin to compromise our time and interests; we’d rather head to Vegas than a prayer meeting. Jesus said that "wisdom is justified by her children” (cf. Luke 7:35). The harmful fruit that results from a lifestyle focused on alcohol is proof enough.
In Jesus’ day, society was much more isolated. We cannot calculate how many people are affected by today’s social media. A person with 500 "friends” may be encouraging dozens to stumble. It is the selfless motivation of love that keeps us from causing others to stumble (cf. Romans 14).
1 Peter 2:16 reminds us that many use liberty to hide sin: "A cloak for vice,” and Galatians 5:13 says we should not "use our freedom to indulge the flesh.” If these points raise concerns, I encourage honest repentance: "Lord, I’ve been wrong…remove my carnality, crush my pride, draw me closer to You. I repent of my sin and turn completely and unconditionally to you.”

In our freedom, we can become a liability to ourselves, others, and the message of the gospel. Its often not "if” alcohol consumption causes damage but "when.” Why would we willingly walk into the enemy’s camp?”‹

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proudpapa

"This is why many will be offended by this article"

I do not drink nor do I : "fellowship, events, birthdays, bible studies, etc. When alcohol is the center of attention."

: "much like an O’douls today."

Not according to the Bible.

The Bible clearly tells us that at the wedding at Canna that the men got :

"well drunk"
methuó
Definition: I am intoxicated with wine, am drunk.

The men Where "intoxicated" from the "wine" and still able to drink more wine.

That would not have been the case had the wine been compatible in alcholic content as that of "O’douls"

John 2:10
And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have "well drunk" (methuó), then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

"Be not among winebibbers…” (Proverbs 23:20).
That very Scripture that Shane used, refutes the argument that Wine in that day had an alchol content similar to that of "O’douls"

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TMK

I have never been a part of a church gathering or even a gathering of believers outside the church where alcohol was the center of attention. I am not saying it does not happen but it would be exceedingly bizarre to say the least. I certainly would not hesitate to say it would be inappropriate.

I agree with PP that his argument lost some weight when he used the MacArthur argument regarding wine being barely alcoholic in the NT. The argument does not hold water and he did not need to include that idea in order to make the ultimate point he was trying to make, which I happen to agree with.

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Heydave

Greg, I do wonder what your motive is to post on these contentious issues so often. Is it to drive more traffic to the site? We already recently had heated discuusions on this subject when you also started that post. All the people so far that have commented were involeved in the previous discussion. I just can't see the benefit of it! If it were someone else on another subject, they would be suspected of having an agenda to convince others of their particular personal conviction.

"The Kingdom of God is not eating or drinking, but righteousness and joy in the Holy Spirit".

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savannah


"Is Alcohol Use Among Christians The New 'Golden Calf'?"

No...not at all! Like the other poster, I have never been to a gathering of christians where alcohol is the center of attraction.

The Golden Calf of christians would be more like movies, music, Christmas, and the beach.

Mention those, and the worshippers will gather round to stone you!

Now...watch and see!

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sermonindex

Greg, I do wonder what your motive is to post on these contentious issues so often.

Brother,

This article does have value as it is a great problem I continually run across over and over again in Churches and in believers who do not attend Church.

We can disagree with points of the article gracefully and hopefully we can all learn something from it.

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leyoung

Dear Brothers and Sisters,
There has been an increasing tolerance for drinking with some believers I know and love. And now alcohol addiction has crept into my Christian family threatening to destroy not only their witness of Christ,but marriages and children. This is a very real warfare going on. We must stay above reproach in this area. And from what I am seeing I would say it requires a complete turning away from a beverage with alcohol in it.

In Psalm 16:6 we are told "the lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yes, I have a goodly heritage..."

This scripture and many scriptures assure us that with God's boundaries we are safe.

Some I know in the body of Christ decided to step over the boundaries of the Lord's wisdom in the name of tolerance and a false idea of grace and are in the slough of despond.

Please pray for members of my family who let alcohol in through the back door and it is taking over their household.
It is important to warn people about this.
Sister Leslie

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JFW

Are you saying/suggesting that going to the "beach" is sinful?
If so, I accept that you hold to this position and humbly ask for you to share your understanding on this-
If that's not what you were saying, could you clarify?

I only ask this because I surf and have (over the past year) taken and been teaching some of my sons -

T
TMK

Leslie-

Just a question- and I am sorry to hear about your family member. I am fortunate enough to have a family where that issue has never reared its ugly head, thank the Lord. My question is whether your family member is a Christian and whether they knew drunkenness was a sin before they started drinking.

I ask because if someone knows what they are doing is wrong I am not sure what a warning would do. That being said I am not sure what the remedy is to prevent such a thing. I suspect it is a symptom of general backsliding versus suddenly being seduced by alcohol.

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savannah


Q. "Are you saying/suggesting that going to the "beach" is sinful?"

No more than "going to the church" is sinful!

The question is, what's there?

I do know that idolatry is sinful as well as nakedness.

If we can go to a place where these are not present, then the going is certainly not sinful.

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JFW

Ahhh ok, I was thinking that was what you were saying and didn't want to misunderstand. Thank you for clarifying:)

And FTR I can totally agree with your position on this~

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leyoung

Dear Brother Todd,

Sometimes it is futile to analyze how a tolerance for something that is not necessarily evil ( a glass of wine with dinner or an occasional beer,) becomes an inroad for the enemy to use in someone's life.
Yes, and it is not just one but several true believers I know have gone from that former sentence about a sip here and there to a place of allowing drunkenness to make them addicted.

It scares me terribly and then when someone drives they put others lives in danger. I just see at this juncture that abstaining altogether is a preferable place.

This is not about legslism. It is about being wise. And there will always be people accusing us of attempting to be "holier than thou" but I would rather be accused of that than causing someone to stumble.


I know of unbelievers who get addicted to take away pain, sorrow and guilt. My own paternal grandfather died young of cirrhosis of the liver. Alcohol destroyed his life literally , but a born again believer generally repents of drinking and drunkenness and to take it up again is something very dangerous. Because there is a tendency to allow it to dull the same kinds of things: pain,sorrow and guilt instead of allowing the Lord to bring healing.
I'm just seeing this in real time and I do ask for your prayers that these believers be delivered now, quickly.

If your family has never experienced this I pray that they never do. I did not think this could happen in my family. But it has. And iit was a choice made somewhere along the line to veer off the narrow way. May they choose life and not death and know that the Risen Savior who resides in them has the power to slay this dragon.
Sister L

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dolfan

Drinking alcohol is one of the warned on topics in Scripture. It stands out to us because drinking is everywhere. The warning presents a consonant tone to the world as a whole. It makes you look up and acknowledge it.

I am a teetotaller. The warning on my ears seems to be so true, so vital that it is more than a warning, but a way. A way -- one of many ways -- that help me stay eyes open, head up, face forward to the prize of the high calling of God in Christ.

Others hear the warning with a bit of weary disgust. Others still hear it and say, "I'm with you, I hear, I see and I am going to walk this way aware of the risk but without letting the truth slip from my mind." Others --- most everyone --- shake their heads quickly and slough off the warning they heard.

Wisdom is justified of her children, Jesus said. Of the latter three "others" listed in the previous paragraph, their wisdom or foolishness will become apparent in the consequences of their actions. Only the second group can realistically have an expectation of victory, but with risk of falling short.

My own hope is that all believers would put it away. But, there are "others" like those in that second group who believe and drink and are mindful of the scriptures and do manage not to offend God in their conduct of drinking. Since that is true, I love them as brothers and sisters.

The golden calf article is right. Too many in the church and as church leaders are those who hear the warning and shake their heads in weariness at hearing it. It is a symptom of a heart already given over to the idol.

I have shared here in the past my experience and my understanding of booze as an idol, and how that the idolatry of it -- as opposed to the simple addiction to it and consequences of drunknness -- is the real trap, the real deception. In this particular day and time, I do believe that those who drink alcohol, profess Christ, and reject the warnings are deceived servants of a false god. I also fear for true believers who drink that the idolatry within is a lurking enemy that they may drop their guard against and that they may begin to serve it and fall short of Christ. But, Jude 22 instructs mercy on them while they work out the truth vs the lie; so, mercy and truth and love I will yield to them.

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sermonindex

Proverbs 23:30-35 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Those who linger long over wine,
Those who go to a tasted mixed wine.
Do not look on the wine when it is red,
When it sparkles in the cup,
When it goes down smoothly; At the last it bites like a serpent
And stings like a viper.
Your eyes will see strange things
And your mind will utter perverse things.
And you will be like one who lies down in the middle of the sea,
Or like one who lies down on the top of a mast.
"They struck me, but I did not become ill;
They beat me, but I did not know it.
When shall I awake?
I will seek another drink.

The writer of Proverbs is describing one who is in an altered state of reality when dtinking wine or other strong drink. The issue is not that drinking is a matter of one's own liberty in Christ. The issue becones one of holiness and concencration to the Lord. The issue becomes one of staying away from Satanic gateways.

Drinking alcohol can he equated to taking drugs. The chemistry of the mind is altered. Moral judgment is impaired. The mind and heart are open to satanic temptation and possession. People, particularly Christians, have done and said things that they do not remember in a sober state. This is why alcohol should be avoided. To take in any type of alcohol even one glass of wine or one can of beer will affect the chemistry of the mind and consequently open up the gateway to demonic possession or influence.

If I came on this forum saying that my Christian Liberty would allow me to go to a fortune reader or play with tarot cards or to play around with a Ouija board. I imagine forum members would object and say that this would open up the realm to the occult. The taking in of drugs or alcohol into the body will do the same thing.

In the end times it is prophesied that there will be a rise in sorcery. In our Western mindset we think of the witch doctor in Africa or the voodoo priest down in the Caribbean doing their wicked satanic deeds. But the root word sorcery in the Greek means pharmakeia. This is the word from which we derive the word pharmaceutical. This is the word from which we get drugs.

In our culture we speak of legal drugs and illegal drugs. But any type of drug be it legal or illegal has an effect on the body's chemistry. Any type of drug whether through a doctor's prescription, over the counter, through a drug dealer, or served by a bartender; will result in one entering into an altered state of reality. Thus so doing will open up their heart and mind to satanic control and possible demon possession. This even to Spirit-filled Christians.

Before we start arguing our right to drink alcohol as believers. We might want to take the words of the Apostle Paul in 1 Corithiabs 10:23,

... all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things efify...

So we do very well to ask herself in these dark times. Is drinking alcohol proftable to one's walk with Christ, Is drinking alcohol going to edify my brothers and sisters? Do I want to drink that glass of wine or that bottle of beer. Do I want to open up my mind to the demonic realm. Personally I want to have none of it as I want to stay as far away from the enemy as possible.

I am not speaking as a teetotaler. There was a time when I used to keep a six-pack of beer and sometimes more in my house. I would justify my drinking a beer as Christian Liberty. I believed the myth that a glass of wine would help with heart issues. But after seeing the effects on me. And coming face-to-face with demonics. After realizing one can lose control after drinking only one glass of wine. I've decided I wanted nothing to do with alcohol or anything else that would bring me into an altered state of reality that short of the Holy Spirit.

Also realizing that these times are growing darker. And the spiritual warfare is becoming more intense. It us wise that believers stay away from anything that could conceivably open them up to the demonic realm.

We agree as believers we should stay away from tarot card readers and fortune tellers. We agree as believers that we should stay away from Ouija boards. Let us also agree that we stay away from the bar and liquor store. For alcohol, just as a tarot card reader or a Ouija board, will certainly open up our mind to the satanic demonic realm.

Rather than be controlled by and unholy spirits
Let us choose to be controlled by the Holy Spirit.

Simply my thoughts.

Bro Blaine


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drifter

I don't care what anyone thinks they know, Jesus would never have restocked a bar with poisonous alcohol. He would never want people to get drunk, much less be the cause of it. Read Sipping Saints by David Wilkerson. The "wine" in that day was by and large non alcoholic, like grape juice. There was alcoholic wine, but I believe Jesus never partook of it. I know many, many people whose lives have been destroyed by alcohol, I've gone to their funerals, looked into their hopeless eyes, heard their cries for help to be free of this demonic bondage. I spent 15 years of my life addicted to various substances. Don't tell me the Bible sanctions the use of that swill from the pits of hell.

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TMK

Nigel-
The master of the wedding at Cana said that the wine Jesus produced was "best." To suggest that he created some watered down version is not tenable.

We have been down this road before as Dave stated earlier on. No one here condones drunkenness and very likely almost everyone here would agree not drinking at all is probably the best policy.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN it is okay to torture scripture to make that point. Paul said don't get drunk, which implies people who drank the wine of that day would get drunk. The people at the wedding of Cana were tipsy- we know this because the wedding master, when he tasted Jesus's wine, was surprised that it was better than the wine that ran out. He observed that usually the better wine is served first, then when people get tipsy the cheap stuff is brought out because they won't notice. Psalms says that wine makes glad the heart of man. Noah got drunk on wine from his vineyard.

My point is that you can make your point about the preference and wisdom of teetotalism without arguing that the wine in bible times was non alcoholic or barely alcoholic. When you do that it just weakens your argument because it comes off as desperate pleading.

H
Heydave

Drifter, We should not care what anyone 'thinks' they know including yourself. We should only care what the scriptures tell us. And it certainly does not tell what you just wrote. It's just what 'you think' based on your particular feelings.

Jesus actually said this in Mathew 11:18-19...

"For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil."

"The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children."

Please tell us what Jesus meant by ' John not drinking and Jesus himself drinking'. What drinking is he talking about here? Did John abstain from drinking water or grape juice? Or could be as a Nazarite he abstained from alcoholic wine as that position requires? That then gives context to what drinking Jesus allowed himself, which opened Him up to false judgement. Nothing changes!!

Bearmaster that sounds very much like you are accusing Jesus of being influenced by a demon. I seem to remember the Pharisees saying a very similar thing.
I have not read anything so absurd as your last post! One glass of wine and you can be demonised! Really??!

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drifter

I challenge any one to tell me the difference between smoking a joint every now and then or doing just a little bit of coke to drinking just a few beers or a glass of wine. That verse in Matthew just said "drinking", not drinking alcohol. I drink every day, just not booze.

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drifter

And no one can prove to me that the water Jesus made into wine was alcoholic. My Jesus would never, ever restock a bar so people could get smashed.

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TMK

He just made wine. He didn't demand that people get "smashed."

Taking scripture as a whole God is not against wine- see Is 25:6. "On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of AGED wine- the best of meats and the *finest* of wines."(my emphasis on "aged" and "finest.")

It does not say anything about God doing this to get people smashed.

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Heydave

Drifter, but is 'your Jesus' different to the Jesus of the bible?

D
drifter

"Drifter, but is 'your Jesus' different to the Jesus of the bible?"
Absolutely not.

Please answer the question: Is there a difference between ingesting drugs and drinking alcohol?

D
drifter

"Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things" (Proverbs 23:29-33).

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise" (Proverbs 20:1).

". . . wine and new wine take away the heart . . ." (Hosea 4:11)

"It is not for kings to drink wine, nor for princes strong drink, lest they drink and forget the law . . ." (Proverbs 31:4,5)

Christ came to fulfill the law! The law says, "Wine is a mocker . . . whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Was Christ deceived? Would he have served a drink that would have led to a man leaving a feast drunken to beat up his wife? And in court that man is asked, "How did you get so drunk?" And the convicted man answers, "I went to a wedding feast. Jesus of Nazareth served up a really strong drink. He got me drunk." (Wilkerson)

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Heydave

"Please answer the question: Is there a difference between ingesting drugs and drinking alcohol?"

Yes absolutely there is a difference. Even the world knows there is a difference. Drugs give you an immediate high, drugs are taken for the sole purpose of getting high. Although some people can use alcoholic drinks like this, this is not neccesarily true for many people.

Now answer this question.... why are elders told they should not be given to MUCH (exccesive) wine. Why does it not say NO WINE and imply that reasonable, moderate wine use is OK? Why did Jesus say he drank and John did not?

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drifter

I love you all, and I apologize if I came across as angry; but I see so many people whose lives are ruined by this garbage. Adopting a position which is lenient towards alcohol use might stumble new believers. I'll not accept that saints are allowed to drink, even if some scriptures seem to support it, like Isaiah 26:5

Asking me a question like "Is your Jesus the Jesus of the Bible" really hurt. I love Jesus with all my heart.

D
drifter

There is no difference. Even one beer or glass of wine puts you into an altered state of mind. Same with one toke from a joint or just a little snort of cocaine.

And as to your question: I don't know. All I know is that I will not try to use scriptures like that to justify use of intoxicating substances. That's kind of like saying "David had multiple wives, so I can too."

D
drifter

I can't conceive that Jesus would mock that crowd and serve a drink that could have been abused if taken immoderately. I believe that elixir Jesus served was the pure juice of the vine - a supernatural punch so full of nature's true blend, it was a unique and welcome change! Would Jesus add alcoholic content to His supernatural drink and make it "bite the cup" when the law said -
"Look not upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright . . ." (Proverbs 23:31)?
-David Wilkerson

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drifter

"Children prenatally exposed to alcohol can suffer from serious cognitive deficits and behavioral problems as well as from alcohol-related changes in brain structure. Neuropsychological studies have identified deficits in learning and memory as well as in executive functioning both in children with fetal alcohol syndrome and in children with less severe impairments. Both groups of children also exhibit problem behaviors, such as alcohol and drug use, hyperactivity, impulsivity, and poor socialization and communication skills."
-National Institute On Alcohol Abuse And Alcoholism

Would Jesus produce something like this? Something that has destroyed more families and lives than any other drug (and alcohol IS a drug)?

T
TMK

Nigel- wine is spoke of favorably and unfavorably in scripture. There is no way to get around it. So the question to ask is "why does scripture speak of it favorably and unfavorably?"

In regard to your argument that wine was non alcoholic back then, you can't have your cake and eat it to, meaning you can't cite verses on the evils of drunkenness and at the same time believe that wine was non alcoholic.

David Wilkerson is wrong on that point. It's ok- he was still an amazing man of God.

D
drifter

In reference to something like the water made into wine, that, I believe, is non alcoholic.
In reference to the warnings in Proverbs, the wine is alcoholic.
I agree wholeheartedly with David Wilkerson on this subject.

I would also ask: Has anyone here ever seen any beneficial effects of drinking alcohol?

All I have ever seen any intoxicating substance do is wreck lives. As a child, I was forced to watch my parents get high day after day, going hungry many days, not knowing where they were. I was depressed and hurting because of their neglect, eventually turning to drugs and alcohol myself. I have known many people, including friends, slowly lose their minds and their lives because of drugs and alcohol. I see people I work with live for nothing more than to get drunk on the weekends (and in many cases weekdays).
And some people want to justify alcohol because it gives them a buzz, and try to make the bible say that?
Alcohol is a demonic stronghold that must be torn down. Plain and simple.

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TMK

"I would also ask: Has anyone here ever seen any beneficial effects of drinking alcohol?"

I suspect some folks like the way it tastes. Jesus did.

You are trying to make the argument that because wine/alcohol can be so destructive in people's lives (which truly is the case) that there is absolutely no way scripture could ever suggest that wine might have positive qualities.

The problem with that line of thinking is that there are many things that are fine unless taken to excess (red meat, salt, aspirin). Water will kill you if you drink too much.

S
sermonindex

nigel.i believe your replies and comments on this subject were perfect.

H
Heydave

Nigel, I appologise if what i said hurt you. The point I was trying ti make is that you cannot just say 'my Jesus' would not do this or that. If you go down that road there are many that use that personal opinion to say 'my Jesus' does nof send people to hell, my Jesus does not judge sin, etc, etc. Ultimately we only learn who Jesus is and was through scripture, otherwise it's all subjective to indvidual feelings..

I can accept that because of your experience you take a prohibition view and I have no problem with you personally believing that it is better to abstain, however we should not cross the line into trying to force scriptures to fit our personal convictions or make sweeping judgemental statements against brethren who do not share the same conviction.

Please also consider that what you and bearmaster wrote can be just as hurtful to those who have liberty and self control in this area of alcohol. Just as I believe Jesus had and was also wrongly judged.

For the record I agree with the overall sentiments of the article, if Christians are acting in the way described. However, I knew that this topic would lead to extreme and unbalanced views being posted, which is why I questioned the wisdom of starting yet another discussion on it.

I really do not want to argue about this anymore, so let's just leave it and accept we have different understanding and convictions about this.

S
sermonindex

I would wonder if those who argue vigorously for their right to drink alcohol in their Christian liverty have ever seen the negative effects of alcoholism? I would wonder if those who argue vigorously for their right to drink alcohol in their Christian liberty have ever been face-to-face with demonics?

The answer would probably be no.

Bro Blaine

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Sree

I do not want to get too much into this discussion. But there is some truth in believing that Jesus did not drink an alcoholic wine. We can use the warnings in the scripture about alcoholic wines to apply to the verses on Jesus and come to that conclusion. We use this approach in so many places where one scripture is not clear, we apply another scripture to bring the light. Jesus always balanced scripture with scripture, even when he was tempted by Satan. If we blindly go by one interpretation of scripture then Jesus should have followed Satan to jump from the temple.

Now even if Jesus drank Alcoholic wine, we cannot apply the same to us and take this liberty. The reason I am saying is, there are other sinful things as well that were associated with Jesus name. One thing I can think of is Gluttony. Jesus was also called Glutton (Matt 11:19). The reason he was called Glutton is he enjoyed good food whenever he got a chance to have one. But he was also willing to go without food for 40 days. He was willing to walk a long distance without food, got weary but still was willing to speak to the Samaritan women without eating food (even after food was available). He overcame the addiction to food. If we can honestly say that we have come to that spiritual height where we can walk miles without food to do God's will, then we can also eat like a Glutton. In modern world of drive through restaurants, there is no need for someone to travel without food like Jesus did, hence there is also no reason to eat like a Glutton when you get good food.
So the point I am trying to make is, if we justify drinking wine, just because Jesus drank it, even though there are scriptures against it, then we should also justify Gluttony. If we can honestly say that we have come to the standard of Jesus then we can also eat like Glutton and taste wine. But honestly none of us have overcome addiction. We are all prone to addictions. It is better to run away from things that are addicting.

S
Sree

I also believe that Brother Greg made a very good point. For the sake of Romans 14, those who have become like Jesus and say nothing can make them an addict, should keep their liberty within themselves. There might be a young believer who just came out of alcoholic addiction and seeing the justification given by super spiritual people, he might believe that he can also taste little bit and fall to that addiction. So it is better for people who believe that they can taste wine to keep their liberty to themselves for the sake of the faith of weak people. This is what Romans 14 is all about. Also the one who believes drinking alcoholic beverages is a sin, should also not judge those who have liberty. But we can always preach against addiction to alcohol and using alcohol in Church parties.

William Booth, did not take holy communion in his Church because many in his place were returning from alcoholic addictions. The taste of grape juice that they had remained them of alcohol and caused backsliding. Booth decided to not take holy communion at all for the sake of these weak ones in his Church. I believe that is a perfect stand. He was willing to even let go Holy Communion which was a command of Jesus for the sake of saving those weak brothers. Where are we compared to such man of God!

D
drifter

If I offended any one, I am sorry.

I only used the term "my Jesus" as a term of endearment. I love Him, He is all I have.

And I do believe the stance I have taken is a biblical one, although I am not condemning any one for conflicting viewpoints.

Both my parents are dead because of addiction, and now all I have left is my brother who is addicted to opiates. He sits there with a straight face and tells me he "needs" to take methadone and smoke pot to calm his nerves, that there is nothing wrong with "relaxing". And sometimes I see fresh track marks in his arm.

I am not angry at any one here, just the devil for doing that to my family and friends.

T
TMK

You certainly have cause to be angry. The devil is wreaking mass carnage with heroin and other opiates in many areas here in the US. San Francisco offers "safe places" for heroin addicts to shoot up, supplying them with clean needles. Madness!

D
drifter

The methadone program is absolutely useless and dangerous. Same thing with safe injection sites. It would probably serve as a deterrent if addicts couldn't get clean needles etc. for free (they hand them out!). There is actually a 'heroin program' in England! The worst I have ever seen is a pastor who used the basement of his church as a safe injection site. I was on the methadone program for years, and without exception, all of the patients con the doctors to get more drugs, while using on the side.

My grandfather (he would be 107 if he was alive) always drank, albeit moderately, but he told my mom not to use drugs when she started using speed at age 13! Small wonder she was addicted for many years to a host of drugs. She told him "alcohol is a drug" and he scoffed. He used alcohol practically his whole life (he was an old British sailor).

N
narrowpath

Wine is a gift to mankind by God. It is an integral part of the Lord's supper. Jesus thanked God for it. God could have chosen milk instead but he chose wine that contained alcohol. No, it was not grape juice, please do not twist scripture. Wine is in the bible from Genesis to Revelation.

The devil did not create alcohol. God did it. Fallen man abuse it, you can abuse just about anything.

Did you know that we will drink wine in heaven with Jesus at the wedding of the bride and the lamb?

I can imagine some of you folks would accuse Jesus as a winebibbler, too.

Paul advised Timothy to have a little because of his stomach.

If you do not drink wine because of your conscience, that is fine, do it for yourself to the honor of God, but please do not force your opinion down other peoples throats and hijack your brothers conscience who is at liberty in this respect. If it is sin for you, than stay away from it, but do not trouble others.

In many European countries Alcohol is deeply ingrained in the culture.

I have seen the abuses and extremes, too. My granddad was an alcoholic. Alcohol was not the primary issue, but the WWII atrocities he encountered.

I sometimes have a little drink but can easily go without. I used to be a tea-totaller for many years, but I never promoted it as something that others should do.
We have an ex-alcoholic in our home fellowship, so we use grape juice for the Lord's supper. I absolutely support to abstay for the sake of the weaker brother.

I could easily extend the issue of alcohol to many other areas in live in the same fashion.

How about our use of money? How many of us overspend? And what about food - How many of us eat more than necessary ?
Internet and TV usage? (how many of us are social media or TV junkies?)
What about guns? How many of you own a gun? Gun ownership would be unthinkable for Christians in many countries outside the US. In India wearing gold jewellery causes offence to many Christians, even wedding rings.


The point I want to make is: Does everything have to be black and white? Either or? Do we have to forbid everything that can potentially cause sin?

Why do we have to go to extremes? Why do some here need a law for everything?

Should not a spirit filled Christians learn to use all things in moderation, not just alcohol?

The issue is not use or abuse, but right use.

1 Timothy 4
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.


L
Lysa


I would like to know where in the Bible does it say that Jesus didn't drink wine?

It says He never sinned, not that He didn't drink wine so we know that He never drank to excess and sinned.

So where in the Bible does it say that Jesus didn't drink fermented wine?

D
drifter

Sree wrote:
"I do not want to get too much into this discussion. But there is some truth in believing that Jesus did not drink an alcoholic wine. We can use the warnings in the scripture about alcoholic wines to apply to the verses on Jesus and come to that conclusion. We use this approach in so many places where one scripture is not clear, we apply another scripture to bring the light. Jesus always balanced scripture with scripture, even when he was tempted by Satan. If we blindly go by one interpretation of scripture then Jesus should have followed Satan to jump from the temple."

Very well put.

D
drifter

I recommend reading this short article by David Wilkerson:

http://www.tscpulpitseries.org/english/undated/sipsaint.html

L
leyoung

Dear bros (seems more bros in this discussion than sisters)
I do believe God put the man in authority over the women, husbands over wives and to be head over the household. And that women are to respect the husband and the children to obey their parents.

What does this have to do with this subject of drinking? I'm not sure, I just started off with that to let you know I wish to be submissive and respectful as a woman here! :-)
We all know that fallen man and woman have no reason or ability to obey God's laws and unless you at born again you are not able to obey the Holy Spirit.

We all seem to argue certain topics out of our own experiences and of course as believers we are told to love one another in the unity of the faith and prefer others over ourselves. This requires a kind of death. Death of having to be right and death of self. To be sure, I'm not operating that way most of the time!!! But sometimes I get it :-)

I totally gleaned something from everyone on this thread. Some, like me needed to vent frustrations and ask for prayer, some had testimony of being delivered from sin and darkness in the area of alcohol. Some argued out of frustration that things don't always have to be black and white and some wonder why the Lord even let wine be discovered in the human race and biblical accounts. Why did righteous Noah want to get Mdrunk as soon as he got off the ark? (Gen. 9:21) or Lot's daughter's get their father drunk with wine to get pregnant by him.(Gen. 19:32) or why did the Lord tell Aaron and his sons as priests not to drink wine nor strong drink whenl they went into the tabernacle lest they die and made it a statute forever throughout your generations. (Lev. 10:8-9) And yet "all the best of the oil and all the best of the wine...offer unto the Lord. And then tell Samson's mother not to drink wine when she was pregnant (Judges 13:4). And talk about wine as a mocker. (Prov. 20:1) then speak of the new wine in the gospels And the first miracle of Jesus making wine for the wedding feast then Paul warning about too much wine causing drunkeness and then advise medicinal wine for the stomach ,
And then end the Bible with tthe wine of the wrath of God on Revelation!!!

I guess what I am trying to say is that clearly there is no doctrine of consistency in the subject of wine, just as there are as many experiences and theories on wine when we discuss it.

Can we take away from one another as Greg has admonished us, and love one another and not argue. (I am guilty).
Some here needed to share of terrible experiences and need prayer for loved ones, others share lovingly while some want to be right, but clearly there is no right and wrong here. There are people who sin and use alcohol and there are people who don't sin and drink wine. Wine often leads to drunkeness and sin but wine is often a blessing in its proper use.

So the bottom line is we must listen to the Holy Spirit in every situation even if we think we have s scripture that says the opposite.

I learned that Nigel loves Jesus and needs prayer for those in his family who are addicted. I need prayer for someone in my family who loves the Lord but got to using alcohol as a stress reliever and comfort. I learned that some of you are willing to not drink so as not to make others stumble and I learned that some of you don't really care what others think but I see that we can all learn from one another and try to understand another's viewpoint and pray for one another. That is what I love about this site.
Thanks brothers and sisters,
L

E
Elibeth

Jesus makes wine,.....
Is there something significant about this Scripture?
I really believe there is,because He expressed over and over in the Scriptures that His thoughts and actions were 'spiritual'--He said "The words that I speak unto you,they are Spirit and they are Life",...."My meat is to do the will of my Father".
.."l have meat to eat ye know not what",..etc...His whole life was a life
and Spitual thought of His Father God.

Even as a child,when He tarried behind in Jerusalem,and His Mother
said unto Him,when they found Him,"Son,why hast thou dealt with us?
And He said unto them,How is it ye sought me?wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?"

Jn.2:1,
"And the THIRD DAY there was a MARRAGE in Cana of Galilee;and the mother of Jesus was there: (v2),And both Jesus was CALLED,and His disciples,(learners) TO THE MARRIAGE.
(V3),And when they wanted WINE,the mother of Jesus saith unto Him,They have no WINE.
(look now at what Jesus says unto her)
"Woman,what have I to do with thee?mine hour is not yet come".
....(thoughts,speakings, I believe to be Spiritual.) and although He really
made WINE,....
If we continue on through the 11th verse,there is really a great Spititual meaning to be understood for us in this,..if we can just grasp it.
And I really do not claim to understand it to the fullest.

On my heart,
-------------
elizabeth


R
roadsign

Jesus makes wine,.....
Is there something significant about this Scripture?

Great question! Jesus was a master at using everyday life to convey spiritual realities. He is the New Wine - the kind that tears old wineskins. It's ever expanding, ever lavish, so lavish that it offends our sensitives! Consider the amount of water in those jars. Enough to fill an entire baptistry! That's craziness, right? That's a lot of wine - a lot of lavishness, a generosity that stretches our imagination beyond capacity.

I believe that the "sacred calf" of today is self righteousness. You see it all over. It can subtly infect our attitudes. It does a lot of finger pointing.

Perhaps it helps to remember that in the Prodigal Son parable there were only two sons: Both were self-righteous. Both needed forgiveness and restoration with the Father.

There's no third son who got it right. Whatever each of us thinks about alcohol, we are equally in need of mercy.

Diane

L
Lysa

by roadsign
I believe that the "sacred calf" of today is self righteousness. You see it all over. It can subtly infect our attitudes. It does a lot of finger pointing.

Perhaps it helps to remember that in the Prodigal Son parable there were only two sons: Both were self-righteous. Both needed forgiveness and restoration with the Father.

There's no third son who got it right. Whatever each of us thinks about alcohol, we are equally in need of mercy.


Thank you for pointing this out. Amen

God bless,
Lisa

S
savannah


This equation is wrong;


Christian
+ - Alcohol
____________
Self-righteous

Just as this equation is wrong;


Christian
+ Head covering
_______________
Self-righteous


This equation is right;

Christian
+ Speculation
______________
Confusion


DO NOT BE DRUNK WITH WINE BUT BE FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT!

S
Solomon101

A BALANCED PERSPECTIVE ON CHRISTIANS AND ALCOHOL

And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire””oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. Deuteronomy 14:24-26 ESV”¨”¨

It's clear that God commanded in certain circumstances the tithe be transferred to cash. The money was to then be used to buy refreshments and be enjoyed with gratitude and thankfulness in His presence. In this scripture God Himself gave sanction to the use of wine and strong drink in a limited and God honoring fashion.

ӬӬIt is an undeniable fact that -
ӬӬ- Part of John Calvin's salary was paid each year in a great number of casks of alcoholic wine.
- Martin Luther clearly, and frequently, enjoyed mugs of beer/ale and glasses of wine. ӬӬ
- John Wesley had ministers sometimes partially paid in portions of rum.
ӬӬ- The Puritan pilgrims found one of the primary reasons to get off the Mayflower was that they had run short of beer. One of their first tasks they undertook was to establish a brewery. In fact a great percentage of the cargo brought with the pilgrims was beer for themselves!ӬӬ

I could list many more examples both Biblically and historically. However, the topic is so emotionally charged for many they can not discuss it on the basis of Biblical and historical merit. They are unable to see anything beyond their own preconceived, and often prejudicial, leanings. They are just to emotionally wound up in it. It also seems virtually impossible for Christians who have staked out a position on a topic to ever change it. That would mean admitting they were wrong. The religious pride is then injured. Very few are ever mature enough to do that.ӬӬ

In the final analysis alcohol is treated the same in scripture as food and sex.ӬProverbs in particular gives some insight in this area. It goes like this-ӬӬ

1. Food is from God. Used as He intended it is a great blessing to be enjoyed. Food used outside His parameters is called gluttony and a sin.Ӭ

Ӭ2. Sex is from God. It was His idea (gasp!). Used as he intended (one man and one woman for life within the marriage covenant) it is a tremendous blessing. Used outside of His parameters it is fornication, adultery, Sodomy, etc. and a sin.ӬӬ

3. Wine/Alcohol is from God. Used as He intended (to gladden the heart of man and be received with thankfulness in His presence) it is a great blessing. Used outside of His parameters it can become drunkenness which He calls a sin.

ӬӬIf the answer a person embraces to avoid drunkenness is to never partake of any alcohol then the they must also refuse all food for fear of gluttony and all sex for fear of fornication. They are treated the same in scripture.ӬӬ However, if each is used within the God given parameters in scripture then they are blessings from His hand to be enjoyed responsibly in His presence.ӬӬ

Psalm 104:14-16 seems to articulate that balance well-ӬӬ

14. You (God) cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man's heart.Ӭ

That Psalm Ӭspecifically states that one of the reasons God brings forth plant life from the earth is to create wine to gladden the heart of man.

ӬӬSeems simple enough.

L
Lysa


Thank you for this excellent post.

God bless
Lisa

J
JFW

Brother Solomon,
That was very well presented and is much appreciated:)

T
TMK

Agreed.

P
proudpapa

Luke 7:34
The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

What he drank caused mockers to falsely accuse him of being a Winebibber.

That does not sound like: grape juice mixed with water that had an alcoholic content similar to that of o'doul's which was only drank for the purpose of purifying the water.

I observed my Grandfather drink one beer on more than one occasion and do so with such sobriety such clearness of conscience that it was a witness to those people whom he did so around : including myself.

Several non verbalized statements where made by his doing so, more than I am able to articulate. Here is just a couple :

One was self control : he could drink one beer over the course of an hour and was able to leave it at that.

Another was that he had studied the Scriptures for himself and was not bound by the legal regulations of religion.

Another was that he was not bound by the chains of societal stigma

Another was he was able to fellowship without coming across as judgmental.


"...scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?"


H
Heydave

Proudpapa,

That's a good testimony of your Grandfather and one I also aspire to in similar points, though not always able to achieve perfectly. He sounds like he was a great man! Christ like I would say. It takes maturity and much wisdom to be able to walk in these things with liberty and I would not presume to press another who does not have that maturity in liberty to try and copy.

God bless.

D
drifter

To me, the real tragedy is that so many who call themselves "Christian" are now drinking. I call them "sipping saints," because that is how it all begins - one sip at a time.

A recent poll revealed that 81% of all Catholics now drink and 64% of all Protestants. These shocking figures keep mounting higher each month. The permissive attitude toward social drinking is fast creeping even into the most conservative, evangelical church circles.

I have spoken at Charismatic conventions where thousands of "Spirit-filled" saints of God lifted hands in praise and adoration to God - and after being dismissed, numbers of them walk out into the parking lot, open their car trunks and pull out a couple six-packs and pass them around to fellow worshipers. Others order mixed drinks with their restaurant meals, in between the praise sessions. They return to speak with "pickled tongues."

A fine Christian lady wrote to me saying:

"We are good church-going Christians. We love the Lord, and we see nothing at all wrong with serving wine in our home. We drink moderately, and our children are learning to drink under our supervision. They do not overindulge. We have never seen anyone drunk in our home.

"You are simply trying to make us feel guilty and are pushing your fundamentalist morals on us. We were not raised under the legalistic taboos like you evidently were. Frankly? sir, our drinking habits are none of your concern."

God bless that dear lady - but one of these days it will be my business. It starts becoming my business when those teenagers go out with their friends and get stoned.

I sent my brother Jerry with a team of converts to Europe to testify about what Christ did in delivering him from the power of alcohol. The Christians in Europe gladly rejoiced in the testimonies of deliverance from dope and prostitution - but they didn't want to hear a word about Jerry's deliverance from alcohol. Why? Because European Christians guzzle wine and beer like water. It broke his heart.

I have heard all the excuses for the drinking among Christians in Europe - and I can't accept any of them. They blame it on impure water. They talk about it being rooted in their culture and customs. They drink "because they have always done it."

How deeply offended some of the pastors were in Paris, France, when I refused to drink their wine. American missionaries, who themselves easily adopted the European customs, told me I should "do as the Parisians do, while in Paris!" Yet, how deeply offended I was when some of these same ministers were so stoned they couldn't stay awake during my crusade.

-David Wilkerson

D
drifter

Proudpapa, Luke 7:34 does not prove Jesus drank alcoholic wine moderately. Other scriptures warn against alcohol use; we must use proper exegesis without a vested interest in justifying our viewpoint. I would never condemn anyone for having a glass of wine with dinner, for example, but I would try to persuade them with scripture and common sense that any amount of alcohol ingested is 1. Dangerous to your health, 2. Stumbles non christians and new believers, and 3. As the scripture says "Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart" Hosea 4:11

I also found an interesting verse in Leviticus: "Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations." Leviticus 10:9
Christians are Christ's Tabernacle, the Holy Of Holies.

I am not trying to start an argument; I am only trying to present my view of scripture, as I understand it.
God bless.

P
proudpapa

I do not drink !

The exegesis that I presented is consistent with all of Scripture ! and it is not coming from a vested interest to justifying my viewpoint.

You did not answer Lisa's questions nor did anyone else, because the Scriptures do not teach that.


The David Wilkerson article lacked Scripture.


D
drifter

I am not accusing you of drinking. If I offended you I am sorry.
I have presented my viewpoint, which I believe comes from a proper reading of the scriptures.
The article by David Wilkerson does, indeed, quote many scriptures; read the full article here: http://www.tscpulpitseries.org/english/undated/sipsaint.html Also he has the experience of many years working with addicts and alcoholics, many, many of which started with moderate drinking; I have 15 years of experience with drugs and alcohol, as well as many friends and family who have the same experience.
And as for Psalm 104:15 "And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart." That does not have to be referring to alcoholic wine. I'm sure having a nice, refreshing glass of grape juice would make my heart glad (rather than awful tasting alcohol, which has nothing but negative effects).

D
drifter

The idea that alcohol might be good for our hearts and blood vessels is a popular one, right up there with the notion that chocolate is a health food.

But before you pour your next cocktail, beer or glass of wine, you should know this: the science suggesting a benefit has never been conclusive. And some experts believe the evidence is getting thinner all the time.

"In health as elsewhere, if something looks too good to be true, it should be treated with great caution," says an editorial published this week in the medical journal BMJ. Mike Daube, professor of health policy at Curtin University in Australia, writes that the once-touted benefits of moderate drinking "are now evaporating."

His editorial accompanies a British study that finds death rates among moderate drinkers and non-drinkers are not different enough to suggest any real health benefits for drinkers. The only possible exception: women over age 65.

Also, a recent Swedish study found that middle-aged people having more than two drinks a day ”“ just above the moderate level for men ”” had a markedly increased stroke risk.

From USA Today

T
twayneb

As I have been following this thread, some thoughts come to mind.

Scripture does not teach that it is a sin to consume a beverage that contains alcohol. When a person says that Paul counseled Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach sake and his recurring infirmity, he is talking about alcoholic beverage. Jesus turned water into alcoholic beverage. All of this is true. We cannot prove from scripture that God considers consuming alcohol a sin.

But what I notice in many of these discussions is that the argument usually turns to this very question. Is it or is it not a sin? To me, there is something very revealing about the way we think in the fact that we gravitate to this question. It is as if our heart's motive, or at least our underlying paradigm, is that of self-preservation. What we really want to know, I think, is whether we can or cannot indulge and still make it to heaven. Obviously not all of us think this way, and I am absolutely not trying to point to any one in particular. I am just noticing that in most discussions of this type, this seems to be the pivotal question. I hear this argument often when discussing these types of issues, "Well its not a sin is it?" I for one have to carefully check my own motives and be sure that I am not of that mindset.

To me, it can never be about what I am free to do or not to do and still assure myself of heaven and not hell. If that is the case, then my salvation is self-serving. I have bought into the idea that salvation is all about my forgiveness and my ultimate reward. But that is not the case at all. Salvation is about my being reconciled to God through Christ and becoming part of His body. Praise God that I am forgiven of my sins and that my name is now written in the Lamb's book of life. I do not minimize this, but I also do not elevate it above due measure. I am now reconciled, part of His body, and am to manifest, as a son of God, His kingdom on this earth as a minister of reconciliation to those who are lost.

With that in mind, my life is no longer my own. Whether or not an activity is sinful or not is no longer in the forefront of my heart and mind. Instead, fulfilling my role in His body and being a minister of reconciliation to a lost world is my mindset.

What this looks like is this. Will my activity edify the body? Will my activity draw men to Christ? If chewing bubble gum will cause a person to stumble, then Hubba Bubba is no longer a part of my life. I am not living for me. I am living for His kingdom. I sacrifice my own freedom for the sake of another man's salvation. My liberty means nothing to me. Your edification and growth mean everything to me. I am compelled by the love of God, not by the letter of the law.

In that respect, I don't think that I am too worried about whether drinking is a sin or not a sin. I am concerned over what effect it will have on other men's eternity. It is really that question we must answer I think. If I live in a culture where it has absolutely no effect, then I have liberty. If I live in a culture where it even might cause another man to miss out on reconciliation to God, then I don't want anything to do with it.

R
RogerB

What goes in the body doesn't defile the man said Jesus. Rather, it's what comes out.

One thing that builds a golden calf is doctrine. We hear, "God is...like ...."; "This is how the godhead ...."; "We know that God .....". The golden calf is built, all rally around that theology, defend it, establish a new denomination

S
StirItUp

Well said Travis.

Our liberty is not limitless but controlled by love and consideration of my neighbor.

Blessings

S
StirItUp

I also agree with Roger.

The kingdom of God is not food and drink but righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit

H
Heydave

I also agree with what Travis wrote. So let each one of us be convinced in our hearts that what we are doing is in faith and obedience to the Lord and not bring others under the control of our own conscience, whether that be liberty or not in these things.

J
JFW

Well said brother Travis!

L
Lysa

by RogerB
What goes in the body doesn't defile the man said Jesus. Rather, it's what comes out.

One thing that builds a golden calf is doctrine. We hear, "God is...like ...."; "This is how the godhead ...."; "We know that God .....". The golden calf is built, all rally around that theology, defend it, establish a new denomination


Thank you Roger for this, both statements are true.

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