Authority

From a book of Watchman Nee. Your thoughts?

Although the world is filled with sin today, authority is still the principle of God’s government. In many things, we can see God’s appointed authority. For example, wives should submit to their husbands, servants to their masters, students to their teachers, citizens to the officers, and subordinates to their superiors. All of this is ordained by God. God desires that man submit to authority because the authorities are not only appointed by God, but they also represent God. This is why Romans clearly says that there is no authority except God. Therefore, no Christian student should boycott classes, no Christian worker should strike, no Christian children should dishonor their parents, and no Christian citizen should engage in a revolution. If anyone does these things, he is not just overturning those he directly opposes, he is overturning God’s authority. God created the universe with His authority, and He maintains the universe with His authority. What is sin? It is lawlessness””refusing to submit to authority. "Sin is lawlessness” (1 John 3:4). Both Satan and Adam overturned God’s authority; by this both sinned. Whoever does not recognize authority and submit to authority is a lawless one, and he has sinned.

......I am afraid that many brothers and sisters have come to meet with us for different reasons. Some have come for the purpose of practicing mutual love and mutual care. This, of course, is very good. But we have to realize that we are not without authority among us. There is authority among us, and we ought to submit to authority. Christians often think that once they leave the denominations, they can act as they please. They think that we are all the same and that no one can rebuke anyone else. They think that they can be lawless Christians. Actually, we have to realize that if we leave the denominations just because we want to be free from any kind of control or domination, this kind of presumptuous leaving of the denominations is a big mistake. Those who come to meet with us have to know that we are more bound by authority.

There is a difference in submitting onesself to authority (respecting the rules) such as we all must do on SI or else all chaos would break out.

And that of subjecting ones conscience under another man conscience or ecclesiastical hierarchy. Which I believe is often the case not only with cults but even with many orthodox structures.

...THE AUTHORITY IN THE CHURCH

How should authority in the church be assigned? God has appointed the elders and apostles to be the authority in the church. In each respective church, God establishes elders; among all the churches, God establishes apostles. The authority of apostles is for overseeing all the churches, while the authority of elders is for overseeing each respective local church. In order to manifest His authority in the church, God appoints elders in each of the local churches to represent His authority. Another name for elders is overseers, which bears the connotation of authority. The Bible tells us to submit to these ones because they represent authority. All authorities are there to represent God. Therefore, the authority of the elders is for representing and expressing God’s authority. It does not matter if an elder is a good representation or a bad one. One should submit to the elders as long as the authority is from God. Whoever does not submit to the authority of the church has lost his standing as a brother.

In the early meetings of a local church, there are no elders. Later, some who bear some resemblance of an elder are gradually manifested. Eldership and overseership are two designated names for the same office. An elder refers to the person, while an overseer refers to the function of such a person. Moreover, in the Bible, elders are always plural in number. There is never just one elder, because it is necessary for the spirits of two to three persons to receive the same leading in order to be assured that what they are doing is right. Individualism is not a scriptural principle, and it easily leads to errors.

HOW GOD APPOINTS ELDERS

How does God appoint elders? In an assembly, there are always a few brothers whose growth is more obvious than the others’. They bear a more excellent testimony than others and are desirous of picking up the work of an elder. They also bear some resemblance of an elder. As a result, the apostles appoint them to be elders to oversee the brothers. The church in Ephesus gives us an example of this. In the beginning, there were only saved believers in Ephesus; no elders were appointed. But after the apostles went there the second time, we see elders there. The first time Paul went out from Antioch, his intention was merely to save some people. But later, he appointed elders in every city (Acts 14:23). Before a meeting is properly established as an assembly, it is still feeble in its walk, and there is the need for others to support it. But after some are able to take up the responsibility of overseership, the apostles appoint them to be elders.

At times, the apostles could not appoint elders personally; they then sent others to do the appointing. Timothy and Titus were this kind of people. According to the direction of the apostle, they went to different cities and appointed elders, who then bore the responsibility of the local churches.

Since the appointment of the elders is for the purpose of representing God’s authority, the elders should understand that Christ is the Head and that the church is here to express His heart’s desire. The elders should inquire concerning the Lord’s desire. Only then will they be able to express Christ’s authority in the meetings. Through these ones, God makes the decision to move or stop. Therefore, all the brothers should learn to submit to these ones. Of course, no one likes to see anyone lording it over him. Although the elders should not lord it over us, we should submit to the God-appointed authority as our part. God has ordained two things in eternity: authority and submission. But many believers do not like to submit to authority. The world is filled with lawlessness today. I am afraid that the mystery of this lawlessness has become manifest in the church. Parents are criticized at will by children, and husbands submit to the authority of their wives. Headmasters and teachers are attacked, opposed, and elected by students, and workers strike at will. Such things are happening frequently. Now is the time that lawless ones will appear as the Bible predicted. If we are not careful, and if we refuse to submit to authority, we are not following Christ but following Antichrist instead. If we cannot submit to authority, how can we expect others to submit to authority? When those who receive a salary from the so-called churches come to rule over us, we cannot submit to them. But if God has placed a certain person in a certain position and has charged us to submit to him, we should submit accordingly. We should obey the ones who watch over our souls as those who will render an account (Heb. 13:17). Therefore, submission to the elders is something that no one can overturn.

THE TITLE AND THE APPOINTMENT
OF ELDERS AMONG US

Let us summarize: (1) The elders are the overseers; (2) the eldership is plural in number; and (3) the elders are appointed by the apostles or the ones sent by the apostles. We know that there are no apostles today and that there is no one sent by the apostles. How then can elders be produced? In the course of our discussion in the brothers’ meeting, concerning biblical questions among the co-workers, we have agreed on the following judgment, according to the Bible and the teaching of the Holy Spirit: presently, due to the fact that there are no apostles, there is no possibility for official elders to be appointed. We cannot confer on anyone the title of an elder. If the title of an elder is conferred, we would have to ask where are the apostles who appointed these elders? However, we are not saying that no one is doing the work of an elder. Although we do not have the official title of an elder, we can find men in all the places who resemble elders and who are doing the work of an elder. They serve as elders in an unofficial way. How can this group of people be raised up to do the work of an elder? Who appointed them to be "unofficial” elders? They have been appointed by "unofficial” apostles.

Today, it is a fact that we do not have apostles among us. However, there are a group of people who are doing the work of the apostles, such as preaching the gospel and establishing churches. They readily admit that they cannot match the apostles in their holiness, power, victory, and work. They are merely doing a small part of the work of the apostles, perhaps only a thousandth part. Today, God is working through this group of people in the same way that He was working through the apostles in the early days. Formerly, the apostles established churches everywhere. Today, this group of people are establishing churches everywhere. We admit that they are far inferior to the apostles and are not qualified to be called apostles. Yet we cannot deny that they are doing part of the work of the apostles. This group of people are the apostles God uses today in this time of the church’s degradation.

God saves sinners and gathers believers through this group of people. They are the most suitable group to lead those who are under their care to respect certain ones in their meetings and consider them as the "elders” among them.

We are merely helping the brothers to submit to these ones. We have to be careful. If we are not careful, we can easily fall into the Catholic system of apostolic succession or the teaching of the Methodist Episcopal Church, which asserts that bishops have apostolic authority. Our judgment is not only according to the scriptural teaching, but this judgment fully matches our experience. For example, Brother Chu is working in Pu-tung and has saved some people there. If he asks Brother Hwang to go there to appoint elders, Brother Hwang would not know whom to appoint because only Brother Chu knows the local situation. He has been continually leading the believers and feeding them. Only he understands the spiritual condition of the local brothers and is concerned about their souls. Only he can lead them to submit to the ones who act as elders among them. At the same time, the rest of the brothers should learn to accept God’s appointed authority.

We cannot refuse submission to authority. We have to ask God to humble us. If we cannot be an "elder,” we should submit to others who are the "elders.” We should learn to be submissive persons. If our flesh has been deeply judged, we will consider submission to be a good thing and an easy matter; we will consider submission to be something sweet. As long as the flesh is not judged, the church will never be proper. If the brothers deal with the flesh properly and are willing to submit, no difficulty will arise. Therefore, those who are doing the work of the apostles should lead the brothers to acknowledge the ones who should be appointed as "elders” and help the brothers submit to these "elders.”

Hi William,

I think there is a difference between a church assembly that is full of the authority of Christ and an assembly that is "authoritarian”.

"Calling them to Himself, Jesus said to them, ‘You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them. But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many’” (Mark 10:42-45 NASB).

The authority of Christ is to give LIFE:

"……You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17:2-3 NASB).

The assembly that is full of the authority of Christ is full of the knowledge and the life of Christ, "The Lord is there” (Ezek. 48:35), and, Christ reigns supreme.

God has given to the church apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers (Eph. 4:11). They are "ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life” (2 Cor. 3:6 Berean Literal Bible).

"You are our letter, having been inscribed in our hearts, being known and being read by all men, being revealed that you are a letter of Christ, having been ministered to by us, having been inscribed not in ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts.” (2 Cor. 3:2-3 BLB).

Every member of the body needs help from each other and is dependent on each other but every member is controlled directly by the head.

"But speaking the truth in love, we should grow up in all things into Him who is the head, Christ, from whom the whole body, being joined together and being held together by every ligament of its supply, according to the working in the measure of each individual part, the increase of the body makes for itself, to the building up of itself in love” (Eph. 4:15-16 Berean Literal Bible).

The vine only has branches. It has no "head-branches” or "sub-vines”.

Each one of us must be like Abraham who walked with God and not like Lot who walked only with Abraham and we know what happened to Lot.

T. Austin”“Sparks:

"If we are going to graduate in this School, graduate to the glory, the ultimate full glory of Christ, to be the competent instrument in His Kingdom for government, the one way of learning that spiritual, Divine, heavenly government which is His destiny for the saints, is subjection to the Holy Spirit. That is a very interesting word, that word 'subjection', in the New Testament. I think it has been rather mishandled and given a wrong and unpleasant meaning. The idea of subjection is usually that of being crushed down underneath, being put under all the time, suppression. "Wives, be in subjection to your own husbands." That is now interpreted as, You have to get down underneath; and the word does not mean that at all. How shall we seek to convey what the Greek word for subjection or submission really implies? Well, write down the number 1; and then you are going to write subjection or submission. How are you going to write it? Not by putting another 1 underneath. The word means 'putting alongside it or after it'. No. 1 is the primary number, it stands in front of all that comes after, and governs and gives value to all the rest. Subjection means that He in all things has the pre-eminence. We come after and take our value from Him. It is not being crushed down, but deriving everything from Him as the first one: and you never derive the benefits until you know subjection to Christ. That is to say, you come after, you take second place, take that place by which you derive all the benefit; you get the value by taking a certain place. The Church is not subject to Christ in that repressive sense, not down under His heel or His thumb, but just coming after, alongside, He having the pre-eminence, and the Church, His Bride, deriving all the good from His pre-eminence, from His having the first place. The Church second, yes; but who minds a second place if you are going to get all the values of the first by having second place? That is subjection. The Lord's idea for the Church is that she should have everything. But how will she get it? Not by taking the first place, but by coming alongside the Lord and in all things letting Him have the pre-eminence. That is submission, subjection. The lordship of the Spirit is not something hard that strips us, takes everything from us, and keeps us down there all the time so that we dare not move. The lordship of the Spirit is to bring us into all the fullness of that headship. But we do have to learn what that lordship is before we can come into that fullness. It is of His fullness we receive.”
(from his booklet "The School of Christ”)

My thought:
The one in authority GIVES OUT blessings and riches.
The one in subjection RECEIVES blessings and riches.
(Note: this is opposite to the "old man”’s way.)

The story of Joseph is illuminating:

"Then Joseph had a dream, and when he told it to his brothers, they hated him even more. He said to them, ‘Please listen to this dream which I have had; for behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf rose up and also stood erect; and behold, your sheaves gathered around and bowed down to my sheaf.’ Then his brothers said to him, "Are you actually going to reign over us? Or are you really going to rule over us?” So they hated him even more for his dreams and for his words.
"Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, ‘Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.’ He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, ‘What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?’ (Gen. 37:5-10 NASB).

His brothers had a wrong understanding of authority and subjection and hated him and sold him to some Midianite traders (Gen. 37:28) who brought him into Egypt and sold him to Potiphar, an Egyptian officer of Pharaoh (Gen. 37:36, 39:1).

The years passed and Joseph rose out of slavery to become a ruler of Egypt (Gen. 41:39-44).

A terrible famine spread over all the face of the earth and only Egypt had supplies of grain (stored up by Joseph in the good years) (Gen. 41:56-57) and this brought his brothers and father into Egypt (Gen. 42-47).

Joseph’s dreams came true and his brothers and father came under his authority. What did this authority result in for them? It poured out life, riches and abundance on them!

"’You shall live in the land of Goshen, and you shall be near me, you and your children and your children's children and your flocks and your herds and all that you have. There I will also provide for you’……Pharaoh said to Joseph, ‘Your father and your brothers have come to you. The land of Egypt is at your disposal; settle your father and your brothers in the best of the land, let them live in the land of Goshen; and if you know any capable men among them, then put them in charge of my livestock.’ …… So Joseph settled his father and his brothers and gave them a possession in the land of Egypt, in the best of the land, in the land of Rameses, as Pharaoh had ordered. Joseph provided his father and his brothers and all his father's household with food, according to their little ones” (Gen. 45:10-11; 47:5-6, 11-12).

"’As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. So therefore, do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little ones.’ So he comforted them and spoke kindly to them” (Gen. 50:20-21).

My thought:
So, in accordance with the example of Joseph, if you have authority and I submit to your authority, then I must be receiving rich blessings from you. Like Benjamin’s (an overflowing supply)…………

"And Joseph filled their plates with food from his own table, giving Benjamin five times as much as he gave the others. So they feasted and drank freely with him” (Gen. 43:34 NLT).

"And he gave each of them new clothes--but to Benjamin he gave five changes of clothes and 300 pieces of silver. He also sent his father ten male donkeys loaded with the finest products of Egypt, and ten female donkeys loaded with grain and bread and other supplies he would need on his journey” (Gen. 44:22-23 NLT).

Christians who truly have authority must surely be those who have the life of Christ in them out of which they can pour out life and blessings to others.

"Be submitting yourselves to one another in reverence of Christ” (Eph. 5:21).

My thought:
Out of the riches of the life and love of Christ in us, we give out life and love to others (authority) and at the same time we receive life and love from others (submission).

How blessed is the one under true Christian authority!

(I am not a "teacher” or "leader” in any church assembly, just a member in the body of Christ, passionate about learning Christ and sharing Christ with others.)

brethren,

I am posting these excerpts from a little book of Watchman Nee called "The Assembly Life" which I am reading at www.ministrybooks.org

I am by no means advocating that he was correct in all he wrote or that we should strictly follow these words, simply posting as I read and hoping we can either learn from it or, if we disagree with his points, explain our own and why we say so

Blessings,

Jade, I am all for freedom in Christ and the individual relationship with Christ as exemplified by the Branch and Vine illustration. These are truly spiritual realities.
However, when it comes to corporate life as church the authority of Christ is not dispenses individually, but corporately also, and that corporate authority must be exercised through human beings in a position of authority, surely?

Think of the exercising of church discipline?

Are you disagreeing with brother Nee's approach altogether?
Should there be no elders with authority etc?

...after this lengthy post I may post only smaller excerpts. Please read this. I think we can learn from it.
Please also go to the website and read the complete book. www.ministrybooks.org

THE QUALIFICATIONS OF AN ELDER

In the Bible, there are clear guidelines concerning the qualifications of the elders. They must be able to rule themselves and manage their own family, and they must know how to deal with outsiders. They must have much assurance concerning God’s truth and must be able to teach it. We will list the qualifications as follows:

(1) Ruling themselves. Why does a person have to rule himself? When a person cannot rule his own temper, he cannot manage the church of God. Subduing one’s own heart and spirit is the most difficult thing to do. If a man cannot submit to the authority of Christ, he cannot make others submit to Christ’s authority. In 1 Timothy and Titus, the words concerning an elder not being one who drinks excessively, or who strikes others, etc., refer to the aspect of the self-control of an elder. In short, an elder must be one who can rule himself.

In addition, an elder must be the husband of one woman. All those who have had concubines cannot be an elder because this means that such a person cannot control himself.

(2) Managing one’s own house. If a man cannot manage his own house, he cannot manage the church. If he cannot manage his own children, how can he manage the brothers? The eldership is a position; it is not a gift. Teachers, shepherds, and evangelists are gifts. But eldership refers to a person’s position in the church. Therefore, such a person must be experienced and capable. His house is his testing ground. If he cannot make his wife and children submit to him at home, and if he cannot be a good husband or a good father, he cannot be a good elder in the church. In dealing with his own wife and children, God puts him to the test to see if he can deal with the brothers and sisters.

At the same time, God also uses our job and the things related to our office, school, and hospital as a test. If a man is efficient at his business, in managing a school, in conducting himself in his office, and in directing his children and servants, he can manage the church well. If a man cannot manage these things, he cannot possibly manage God’s church in a proper way.

(3) Having a good public testimony. An elder is a person who represents the church. Sometimes an elder has to represent the assembly to deal with outsiders. If he does not have a good testimony, the whole church will be slandered. When a person has a bad reputation in public testimony it does not necessarily mean that he is bad. However, if a person has a good reputation in public, it surely means that he is somewhat good. Therefore, a good reputation is important, while a bad name does not necessarily mean much. In this world, men primarily say bad things about others; few say good things about others. The Chinese say that those who are in the public eye are "under ten eyes and under ten fingers.” Few people say good things about others. Most people tend to destroy the reputations of others. If men can find something good to say about a person and give good marks to him, then he surely must be somewhat good. If a greedy, self-centered, and defiled son of Adam can call a Christian a good man, then the Christian surely must be good.

(4) Having much assurance in the truth of God. Since the work of an elder is related to the church and not to a worldly organization, he needs to have much assurance in God’s truth. To do other things, it is not absolutely necessary to have a good reputation or to have much assurance in the truth; one does not need to be apt at teaching the Bible to do other things. Yet an elder must be apt to teach the brothers and sisters. An elder is a doorkeeper of the church. What happens when all the brothers want to preach? The elders must consider who should preach and who should not preach. They should find out who are flippant ones, undesirable ones, and incapable ones. They should be able to render the brothers much encouragement as well as discouragement. If they do not have much assurance in the truth, they will think that all the brothers are equally good and that everyone can preach. In this way, they will be men of no discernment.

At the same time, an elder must be one who can differentiate and judge. He should be able to judge the kind of teachings that should be introduced to the church and the kind of teachings that should be rejected. If the elders do this, the brothers will not become confused in the messages they hear. (For a detailed discussion of the above qualifications of an elder, see 1 Tim. 3 and Titus 1.)

THE RESPONSIBILITIES OF THE ELDERS

(1) The elders are the overseers. The Bible calls the elders the overseers. The work of an overseer is to oversee, which is to observe from above. In particular it means to detect the dangers that are coming to an assembly and to be aware ahead of time of the dangers that may come to individual brothers or to the whole assembly. Among us, we have many brothers and sisters. It is hard to avoid problems or weaknesses or to be free from sin, discord, dishonesty, failure to repay loans, disgraces, or scandals in dealing with outsiders. When these things happen, the responsible brothers or those who are doing the work of an elder should step forward to deal with such matters. They should not allow the leaven to enter the assembly. These unofficial elders should deal with all these shady matters among the brothers. This is their responsibility. They should come to your house to ask about these matters and deal with them. When they come into your house, you should submit to their decision because their decision is the Lord’s decision; their authority is the Lord’s authority.

...Therefore, leaving the denominations is leaving two things behind: (1) the divisions, and (2) the pastoral system.

One Westerner once asked me why I am against pastors. I told him that I am not against pastors but rather the "pastoral system.” If a man has the gift of a pastor, we cherish it. But whether or not a person has the gift of a pastor, we should not make him a priest and bring in a disguised priestly system. Even if one among us has the pastoral gift, we should not consider him as our priest or mediator.

I am afraid that in leaving the denominations some brothers consider that they are free from every control of man. They may think that since they have left the denominations, they can be lawless and free, doing anything they want. If this is the way you are, I have to call you by another name: you have not left the denominations; you have left the church. You are not freeing yourself from the denominations but from authority. We have left the denominations in order to leave the divisions and pastoral system. The purpose is not that we would become individual, isolated believers. Rather, we have the God-ordained authority with us. Therefore, submitting to man is submitting to God’s authority, and submitting to the brothers is submitting to God’s authority.

William,

I am not against leaders and pastors and elders.

The apostle Paul and men like Hudson Taylor (who founded the China Inland Mission) are leaders we can truly honour and respect.

What I disagree with is how some leaders define their "authority" and exert their authority.

I am not comfortable with this statement of Watchman Nee:

"It does not matter if an elder is a good representation or a bad one. One should submit to the elders as long as the authority is from God. Whoever does not submit to the authority of the church has lost his standing as a brother."

Watchman Nee has many wonderful teachings that I agree with. BUT in his later years he was much influenced by the Exclusive Brethren.

God saves men in order to gain living stones for the building up of the spiritual house. If there were only individual, isolated stones, there would not be a spiritual house. Our breaking of the bread is a manifestation of the whole Body of Christ. Everyone who breaks bread should be responsible to the whole Body of Christ; he should see that he is responsible to all those who have fellowship with him. Therefore, every time we are about to receive a brother into our bread-breaking meeting, the responsible brothers should show him that the breaking of bread is for the discerning of the Body. It is not only a discerning of the Lord’s body but a discerning of the Body of Christ. If we do not discern the Body, we are committing sin.

Therefore, all the brothers who are breaking bread should realize the scriptural requirement for breaking bread: (1) A person must be saved, and (2) he must not be one who commits the sins in 1 Corinthians 5. Moreover, he should know the responsibility he bears as a brother who partakes of the bread. He is responsible to the local brothers, and he is responsible to the assemblies in all places. If any brother is not clear about the responsibility he should bear, we should not reject him but allow him to consider, and we should show him the consequences of not bearing this responsibility. He should realize that the breaking of bread is not only for the remembrance of the Lord but also a matter of responsibility to the fellowship of the church. If a brother is clear about all these matters and is willing to take the responsibility, he can be received. Otherwise, we should allow him to consider carefully and think clearly. He should then make the decision by himself whether or not he wants to fellowship with us.

... have any of you ever understood the Lord's Table in this depth and seriousness? Does this not convict us?

"Question: We know that when we receive a person, we have to ask him four questions: (1) Is he saved? (2) Does he have the obvious sins in 1 Corinthians 5? (3) Is he willing to be responsible to the meeting? (4) Is he willing to fellowship with the brothers? If a person is saved and does not have any obvious sins that forbid him from partaking of the bread, yet he does not want to be responsible to the meeting or fellowship with the brothers, and instead wants to control us, what should we do?

Answer: Please notice that the first and second points are our conditions for receiving a person to the Lord’s table. The third and fourth points are for discerning the Body. If such a person does not discern the Body, he is eating judgment to himself. All who serve as elders in an assembly should be clear about this. Furthermore, there are two aspects to discerning the Body. First, we have to discern that this Body is the Body of the Lord Jesus and that when we break bread, we are eating and drinking for the remembrance of the Lord. Second, we have to discern this Body as the whole Body of Christ. When we gather together on the Lord’s Day evening to break bread, we should realize not only that the ones who are breaking bread together are the Body of Christ, but that all those who are redeemed by the precious blood of the Lord are the Body of Christ. If a Japanese comes to our midst and breaks bread with us, we should acknowledge him as our dear brother just like all other brothers. If the British in Tibet start a war with China, and an English brother comes into our midst to break bread with us, we should regard him as our dear brother. We should not care for the distinction that exists between men but only for our relationship in the Body of Christ. If one who does not discern the Body comes to break bread with us, we can ask whether he is willing to discern the Body. Is he willing to be responsible to the church for all his actions? If he is not, we will not reject him from partaking of the bread, because he is saved. However, we have to let him know that if he does not discern the Body, he is eating judgment to himself and that it will be to his loss.

Question: Will one die if he eats judgment to himself?

Answer: Yes, he may. If a meeting is holy, and if it knows how to exercise God’s authority, such things can happen. Why is the breaking of bread so important? When one recognizes the Body of Christ and acknowledges that he is a part of this Body yet does not discern it, he is making a false testimony and putting God to shame. Moreover, the testimony of the bread is made before angels, demons, and all the principalities and powers. Therefore, if one makes a false testimony, it is a great shame to God. God will bear with ignorant ones. But to those who sin willingly, who acknowledge yet make false testimonies, He will send forth His punishment.

Question: In a certain place, one brother has incurred a serious illness. He once committed the sin of reviling. Is his illness a punishment from God?

Answer: Yes, it is.

Question: If a brother is sick, must he ask the elders to anoint him with oil before he can be healed?

Answer: There are a few reasons why believers become sick. Some illnesses are caused by carelessness in the natural realm. Some are caused by attacks from Satan. Some are the result of being detached from the Body of Christ. If a believer is sick because of being detached from the Body of Christ and because he is not holding the Head and standing in the proper position in the Body of Christ, he should first understand how he has become detached before he asks the elders to anoint him with oil. The meaning of anointing with oil is to return to the proper position in the Body of Christ through the Holy Spirit. We all know that we are members in the Body of Christ. Just as a member in our body receives the circulation of blood and the life of our body, so the members of the Body of Christ receive the circulation of Christ’s life and His blood. This is typified by the ointment which flows from Aaron’s head to his whole body. As long as the members are standing in their proper positions, the ointment will flow to them; they will receive the protection of the ointment, and their sickness will be gone. All those who take the proper standing in the Body of Christ are under the anointing of the Head. The ointment is on Christ the Head, but it flows from the Head to us. When we have the ointment, we have health. Where there is ointment, there is life. Believers are sick because they fail and because they have become detached and separated from the Body of Christ. When this happens, the life and ointment of Christ will not be able to flow to them.

The book of James says that if anyone among us is sick, he can ask the elders of the church to anoint him with oil (5:14). It says to ask the elders to do the anointing. The gifted ones are useless because the elders represent the church, the Body of Christ. The anointing of the oil signifies the restoring of the sick believer back to the anointing of the Head. If you can bring a person back to the anointing of the Head, his sickness will be healed."

Thanks brother Greg,

I am not pushing Nee's writings as such but as I am reading I am sharing what makes an impact in me.
I do read through it (sometimes quickly) and will take care not to post something that is obviously in error.

I appreciate Watchman Nee's depth and detail and clarity with which he teaches and as you say, I think we can learn a lot from him.

The body is still going through much of what he shared and what they were experiencing even then.

Blessings,

The first point we should emphasize is that we are at the bread-breaking meeting to remember the Lord. Therefore, the Lord should be the center. It is unsuitable to offer prayers and supplications at the bread-breaking meeting. Of course, we can thank and praise the Lord through our prayers, but we should not remember our own needs during the bread-breaking meeting. The meeting on the Lord’s Day evening is purely for thanksgiving and praise.

According to the light of the Bible, there should be two sections to the bread-breaking meeting. Before the breaking of bread, we have the Lord Jesus before us; after the breaking of bread, we have the Father before us. Before the breaking of bread, the Lord leads us to remember Himself. Therefore, all thanksgiving and praise should have the Lord as the center; everything should be centered upon the Lord. Before the breaking of bread, we see the Lord Jesus as the only begotten Son; He is the only Son. After the breaking of bread, we see the Lord Jesus as the firstborn Son; we have a share in the Son of God and have become God’s many sons. Before the breaking of bread, the Lord Jesus is one grain of wheat; after the breaking of bread, He is the grain that has fallen to the ground and died and brought forth many grains. By discerning the Body of Christ, we see the Lord as the firstborn Son, as depicted in Hebrews 2. He is leading many sons into glory, and in the assembly He is leading them to sing praises to the Father.

You can speak with two sincere Jehovah Witness's that have never talked with each other and they will give you an almost verbatim answer for almost any question that might ask them, Mormons undoubtedly the same way, Church of Christ whom ironically pride themselves as not being a denomination are the same way. But not only that, it is this way with more orthodox Church's ,groups, sect's etc.

Many groups started out because : 1 or a few men started realizing the Biblical Body Paradigm with Christ as the Head of each individual members conscience (aka priesthood of all believers) vs the chains of bondage, the prison of subjecting ones conscience under another man conscience or ecclesiastical hierarchy

There is a repeated pattern through out history which is why we have so many denominations, sects and groups :

Various men through out history have recognized these truths for themselves and when they do they break away from the ecclesiastical hierarchy that they have been suppressed under.
They recognize the Scriptural Body Paradigm (aka priesthood of all believers) But in every instance that I am aware of through out history they have recreated the ecclesiastical hierarchy with there own convictions as the rule.

add
clarity

You are using Witness Lee's translations and they do change words and vocabulary to match their desires for their church movement, there can be a deception with this.

Good to know that there is another translation that is available for Nee's work that is not touched by Lee. I heard that the olden editions that came 30 to 40 years back are legitimate work of Nee.

The apostle Paul and men like Hudson Taylor (who founded the China Inland Mission) are leaders we can truly honour and respect.

What I disagree with is how some leaders define their "authority" and exert their authority.

I am not comfortable with this statement of Watchman Nee:

"It does not matter if an elder is a good representation or a bad one. One should submit to the elders as long as the authority is from God. Whoever does not submit to the authority of the church has lost his standing as a brother."

Watchman Nee has many wonderful teachings that I agree with. BUT in his later years he was much influenced by the Exclusive Brethren.

Many have this understanding that they can submit to perfect leaders only. But God often tests us to submit to imperfect elders or leaders. Jesus was tested to see if he was willing to submit to and get baptized by John the Baptist who was not as spiritual as Jesus. John even doubted Jesus when he was in prison. Still Jesus was willing to Submit to John's authority.

Similarly Jesus was also expected to submit to Mary and Joseph who were not perfect still he submitted to them as long as he was at home.

Imagine if our children tell us that, "I will submit to you father and mother only if you are like Paul or Hudson Taylor, otherwise I will live the way I want because you are not perfect yourself", what can we tell them? Is it not insubordination?

Church is also a family, only difference is it is a family of God. If you are sure that it is a Church where Jesus is head and he has appointed the Elder, then you should be willing to submit to the elder even if the Elder is wrong. If the elder is leading you away from Jesus then it is a different story, but in all other cases of misunderstanding or false accusation, it is always required to submit and remain humble.

I am not telling a theory that is not true in my life. In my life, I was misunderstood, judged wrongly etc but I have always chosen to humble myself to the authority that God has put above me.

In many cases, I have seen insubordination due to reasons like the elder is not theologically strong like me etc, which are not correct. I believe this is what Nee is addressing here.

First, can you please give a CLEAR definition on what you think is "authority" and "submission".

".......they have recreated the ecclesiastical hierarchy with there own convictions as the rule."

Yes...... and man takes over the role of the Holy Spirit.....

Excerpt from "Against the Tide: The Unforgettable Story Behind Watchman Nee” by Angus Kinnear:

He threw himself into the work of the gospel yet further. There were many doors open to him, and after participating acceptably in the New Year conference in Fuzhou he gave himself to village work and especially to the instruction of new believers. Here he soon learned new lessons. ‘For a year after my conversion,’ he tells us, ‘I had had a lust to preach. It was impossible for me to stay silent. Something was moving within me that drove me forward and I had to keep going. Preaching had become my very life.’ He had had a good education and was now well versed in the Scriptures, so naturally he considered himself thoroughly capable of instructing village folk, in whom the women in particular were most illiterate. But now, after several visits to one group to help confirm them in their faith, his self-esteem was sorely deflated. Despite their illiteracy these women had come, he discovered, to an intimate knowledge of the Lord Jesus. ‘I knew’, he says, ‘the Book they haltingly read; they knew the One of whom the Book spoke. The Spirit of God was Himself instructing them.’ Watchman was learning humility. There was no flagging of his zeal, but he was encountering a divine principle of fruit-bearing, that ‘apart from me you can do nothing’.

A gem!

@BranchinVINE

Loved that about the women in the village. Beautiful witness of the Holy Spirit. Boy I could really say some things but I'll just leave it at that....

Bro Greg,

RE : ///Could you perhaps give examples of groups in Church history that followed the way you are saying is best. When I think of Mennonites they are named after Menno Simmons and had clear leaders for their movement. Even George Fox who was very radical and they even forgoed water baptism and the Lord's Supper but they still had clear leadership in their movement and George Fox being a found or leader of all of them.///

We can agree that the Bible speaks about leadership and various offices of leadership.

The repeated problem through out history is that leadership has misunderstood its role and its function.

Various men through out history have recognized that they needed to bring there conscience out of the subjection of other men.

You mentioned George Fox, case in point :

George Fox :"... And when all my hopes in them and in all men were gone, so that I had nothing outwardly to help me, nor could tell what to do, then, oh, then, I heard a voice which said, "There is one, even Christ Jesus, that can speak to thy condition"; and when I heard it my heart did leap for joy. Then the Lord let me see why there was none upon the earth that could speak to my condition, namely, that I might give Him all the glory.."

Many of the early Anabaptist similar scenario,

Martin Luther similar scenario and we could go on and on.

What do we have now ? We have Quakers, We have Amish and Mennonites , We have lutherans and Protestants

These groups now have there various sects. Each sect demands that you Subject your Conscience to there rules and understandings thereby they are covering over the conscience of the men that set under that rule.

Only for brief glimpses at various times through out history do we see the Scriptural Body Paradigm set in place.

And when we do see it : we see Revival Break out.
But in a very short amount of time men start forming councils writing confessions etc. and demanding that there adherents bring there conscience into subjection to there understandings and than the revival leaves and you have a movement.

1 Cor speaks very clearly about all of this.

First, can you please give a CLEAR definition on what you think is "authority" and "submission".

I am not sure whether it is wise to define Submission outside the Bible. Here we are discussing submission in the context of a Church. In Church and in matters of Church, we should submit fully to the elders appointed by God. If he asks us to stay quiet then remain quiet in the Church.

In personal life, we can value the advice of this elder if we have confidence on them, but our final decision should be based on how the Holy Spirit leads us.

The moment someone talks about submission, immediately someone will jump saying, these elders will boss over us etc. As long as we keep the context of submission correct, we should have no problem in submission.

It is not always easy to submit to elder in the context of Church. There will be time when you are misunderstood and wrongly disciplined. Still one should remain quiet and accept the discipline and rebuke.

Thank you, Jasmine, for your comment.

"In personal life, we can value the advice of this elder if we have confidence on them, but our final decision should be based on how the Holy Spirit leads us."

Agree.

"It is not always easy to submit to elder in the context of Church. There will be time when you are misunderstood and wrongly disciplined. Still one should remain quiet and accept the discipline and rebuke."

Absolutely disagree.
If an elder has done a wrong thing should he not do the right thing and apologise to the wronged member?? Can an elder misbehave and not a member???

Edit to add:

"Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering” (Matt. 5:2223-24 NASB).

Does this not apply to the elder?

Edit to add:

"Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,"...........?

Bro Greg,
Thank you for the questions, I am learning as I am researching to answer the questions.

RE : /// - Creeds are wrong.
- Statements of faith are wrong/

Spurgeon speaking to the Quakers concerning George Fox :

"I suppose that Fox would object to your own creed. I have the notion that he would object to any creed, as a creed ; and that even if he agreed to what was laid down he would object to its being laid down at all. I think he would say, " No, these things may be true enough , but lest by any means this creed should be used to bind another man"s conscience. I will not agree to it ; I believe it and recieve it, but I will not subscribe to it, lest it should become as all creeds do become in the process of time mere dead letters and instuments of tyranny.

Watchman Nee :

edit: After reading the request of the website. I have choose to remove the Watchman Nee paragraph.

I have felt a need to remove the link as well.

Brother Frank, I agree

Brother Greg, I agree

Brother Greg, Is it possible for sermon index to add this lecture to its Christian Book section ?

"for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh” (Phil. 3:3).

"My eyes are continually toward the LORD, For He will pluck my feet out of the net” (Ps. 25:15).

My thoughts:

The great safeguard against going into error is to continually immerse ourselves in God’s Word and PRAY for the Holy Spirit’s guidance.

God is faithful. The Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth.

It is good to fellowship with other believers. There is much we can learn from each other and encourage each other especially in life experience.

RE : /// I am not sure what you mean by "Scriptural Body Paradigm set in place."///

I am referring to the model that is laid out in the New Testament when it speaks of how the Church is intended to function.
The symbol used in Scripture is a physical human Body.
1 cor 12 , Mat 23:8 , Mat 23:9 , Romans 12

I am contrasting that with how the institutions of the world function which is hierarchical.
Mark 10:42
The symbol that represents hierarchy is a pyramid.

Bro Frank, amen.

RE : /// "Spurgeon himself held to a creed:...."
..."as well as a catechism:..."

But was that a good thing ?

Do you hold to the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith or Westminster confession of faith ?

If those where good confessions what about the Anabaptist : Schleitheim Confession ?

They contradict each other in several areas, and those whom hold to one or the other have there conscience bound by what is contained in those confessions.

for example of what I am saying :

In the Scriptures God positioned Joseph to become governor of Egypt : for the purpose of : "saving of many lives"

We see a very similar incident in the establishment of Pennsylvania as a refuge for many of the persecuted.
Gods will in it , is of course up for debate amoung those of differing opinions.

Had William Penn been an Anabaptist whom held to the Schleitheim Confession : Pennsylvania would never have become the refuge for the Quakers, Anabaptist etc. of which it became.
His ideas of Government would never have influenced the American Constitution as what it did. Because according to the Schleitheim Confession Christians are not to take part with any such things.

add: for clarity