When is the start of the tribulation

Daniel 9:27
King James Bible
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

With the recent process in France what will be the actual working out of this verse as there has been the Oslo Accords and other things.

Will the peace accord be with the building of the temple to actually start the Tribulation.

with actually building the temple the temple institute have the actual plans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2IkxmwkayM&list=PLPtr_UmiMgfy5WzkyI3Nl1r88SPrJE2RU

From a biblical source there is only one verse please inform me if you can think of any others? I would be glad.

There is not going to be an official neon sign starting say we are now going through the tribulation, I know this is disputed among the Pre Mil position.

I would love clarity.

Quote: "I would love clarity. "

Good luck!

If the 7 year trib is a literal 7 year period yet future, and it is as bad as the language used in Rev to describe it, don't you think you'll know? The traditional pretrib view is that the first thing that happens is the rise of antichrist. Wouldn't that be obvious?

If you're born again, you are one of the wise virgins. You won't be left behind.

/Daniel 9:27
King James Bible
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

With the recent process in France what will be the actual working out of this verse as there has been the Oslo Accords and other things.

Will the peace accord be with the building of the temple to actually start the Tribulation.

with actually building the temple the temple institute have the actual plans
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2IkxmwkayM&list=PLPtr_UmiMgfy5WzkyI3Nl1r88SPrJE2RU

From a biblical source there is only one verse please inform me if you can think of any others? I would be glad.

There is not going to be an official neon sign starting say we are now going through the tribulation, I know this is disputed among the Pre Mil position.

I would love clarity./

I may not be speaking for everyone, obviously I am not, but I commend you for your interest in this matter. I come from the viewpoint of not believing the eschatological scriptures recorded in the Bible in such heavy volume were placed there only to be non understandable and are to remain a riddle and enigma never really understood even up until the return of Christ. If the start of the final tribulation signals the beginning of the final days and time before Christ's return then it is logical that it is a matter of great importance for the church to be knowledgeble and understand what is taking place. The words of Jesus regarding the START of this tribulation are very clear and as you mentioned can serve as a official neon prophetic sign that signals the start of this time of trouble and tribulation"such as never occurred." You ask a very good and important question in my opinion. My answer is from a pre-mill and literalist approach to interpretation.

Prophetic thought before Jesus:

- When you are in distress and all these things have come upon you, in the latter days you will return to the Lord your God and listen to His voice. (Deut 4:30)

Before they entered the land for the first time, Moses voiced a astounding prophecy that the children of Israel would suffer distress and tribulation even into the latter days preceding the end of this age.

- Isaiah spoke of a time of trouble that would precede the resurrection of the dead and final deliverance for Israel from their enemies - Isaiah 26:15-21.

- Jeremiah saw a day of trouble unlike any other day ever experienced - Jeremiah 30:7.

- Daniel spoke of a time of trouble such as never occurred that will precede the resurrection of the dead. The time of this trouble has to near the end of the age because the resurrection occurs at the end of this age.

1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress SUCH AS NEVER OCCURRED since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.

2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake,(be resurrected) these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:1-2)

Then the Olivet Discourse:

15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

21 for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will (Matt 24:15-21).

The words of Jesus in Matthew 24:21 - "such as never has occurred" match almost word for the word the description Daniel gave of a final time of trouble. Daniel described this time as a time of distress "such as never occurred." From my reasoning, it's a safe assumption that Daniel and Jesus are speaking of the same thing. Jesus has not spoken His own words but has referred to the prophecies of Daniel. In the words of Jesus referringg to Daniel, what is it that sets off this final time of distress and tribultation?

15 "Therefore WHEN YOU SEE THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

Jesus again refers us back to the prophecies of Daniel as to the timing of the BEGINNING of the tribulation. It is one of the most clear, unambigious and noteworthy prophetic signs that has ever been given in the Bible. The AOD is spoken of clearly in Daniel, not once but four places (Daniel 8:12; 9:27; 11:31; 12:11), so who or what else could Jesus have been referring to?

The Antichrist will confirm a covenant according to Daniel 9:27 but it doesn't necessarily say he will be the author of the covenant. That doesn't preclude the possibility that He won't be though. But he may confirm a covenant by going along with and giving his affirmation to what has been decided on by the nations by way of a covenant. Someone, maybe the AC, will likely have convinced the competing entities, Israel and the Muslim nations, that a Jewish temple and the Muslim Dome of the Rock can exist peacefully side by side. I would place this in the realm of speculation though (not to be associated with scripture) but only as a possible scenario. Many think if you speculate a little about possible scenarios that you have gone off into Zanyville but this is not so. Yet the AC will be lying in his heart and only biding time until the satanic rage he has against the Jewish people and their covenant will explode into the open (Daniel 11:28-31) This will be when he goes to a rebuilt temple and descecrates it and performs the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION when He pronounces himself God ( Daniel 11:36; II Thess 2:3-4). This will signal the beginning of the great and final tribulation SUCH AS HAS NEVER COURRED nor never shall occur again. Rev 7:14 speaks of this time also.
The words of Jesus are a fool proof refuge against being deceived in this day.

Jesus was asked, "When will the end of the age be and what will be the sign of your coming again?" By way of reply, the very first words out of the mouth of Jesus were, "Take heed that no one DECEIVES YOU." And to not be deceived in this time of great deception ("Lo, He is there," or, "Lo, He is there etc.", Jesus refers back to the prophecy of Daniel and the AOD as a absolute reliable sign and indicator of what is about to happen. "Let the reader understand" that the prophecy of Daniel is where to go to get your bearings as to the timing of the start of the final tribulation.

15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

21 for THEN (after the AOD) there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Again, the words of Jesus ("when you see the AOD spoken of through Daniel the prophet"), may be the most important prophetic sign that He gave to help people from being deceived at the end. Therefore, from the pin point specific instructions of Jesus Himself, we must go to the words of Daniel the prophet to understand the time of the beginning of the tribulation. I assume the words of Jesus are fool proof in this regard.

Things to guard against:

1) Other believers saying you are overly speculating and too interested in things that don't really matter.

2) The scriptures don't refer to Jews rebuilding a temple because the church is the now temple of God inhabited by the Spirit. The answer is that the Jews rebuilding a physical temple and the Church now being the temple of God are two separate issues altogether not really related to one another.

3) There has always been tribulation so there can really be no final tribulation at the end of the age such as has never occurred.

According the the Apostle Paul, it won't start until the anti Christ is revealed. As he is writing to believers saying in effect, 'don't worry you have not missed it, you will know if you see this!', then true believers will
know who he is when he is 'revealed'.

One quick question- Jesus said we couldn't time his coming(paraphrasing).

However, if premillennialism is correct and we can mark the start of the 7 year period, wouldn't we be able to time his return?

Matthew 24:44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Brother,

I believe the best thing to do is to prepare. We will not be unaware of the revelating of the man, the antichrist. But to prepare spiritually and even physically as to the leading of the Holy Spirit is wise.

The virgins had oil and this I believe applies to us spiritually as well as even physically towards the end of the age and great tribulation. The sobering fact is that we cannot share at a certain point as the parable states: ""‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead..." What a sobering statement "No."

May we each find ourselves preparing now for the coming of the Bridgegroom Jesus Christ.

Matthew 25:1-13New International Version (NIV)

The Parable of the Ten Virgins
25 "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6 "At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’

7 "Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’

9 "‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’

10 "But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11 "Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’

12 "But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’

13 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour

Love your answer Greg I need as much of the holy spirit as I can get.

It is not that as reading the Dead Sea Scrolls, at the time when Jesus appeared during his first coming.

Sometimes looking in the wrong direction,

What is interesting is that someday we will watch the news and that a seven year peace treaty will be signed with israel, we will we miss it,

I so love Greg as hopefully the holy spirit will reveal it to us, sometimes I feel so dead and dry I need the holy spirit so much, but I also want to test every spirit aswell.

2) The scriptures don't refer to Jews rebuilding a temple because the church is the now temple of God inhabited by the Spirit. The answer is that the Jews rebuilding a physical temple and the Church now being the temple of God are two separate issues altogether not really related to one another.

What is the abomination of desolation ?

It is interesting Mamonadies and all the current hasidic rabbis refer to the messiah making world peace and rebuilding the third temple to me which fits the idea more of the antichrist than the messiah it is a low expectation of the messiah than the messiah mentioned in the dead sea scrolls who fits Jesus perfectly.

3) There has always been tribulation so there can really be no final tribulation at the end of the age such as has never occurred.

Jesus refers to the Great Tribulation in Matt 24 and the time of Jacobs trouble is mentioned in scripture, The early church fathers refer to this aswell.

I need the holy spirit I am a mess and I need Jesus

I wrote,

Things to be on guard against:

2) The scriptures don't refer to Jews rebuilding a temple because the church is the now temple of God inhabited by the Spirit. The answer is that the Jews rebuilding a physical temple and the Church now being the temple of God are two separate issues altogether not really related to one another.

3) There has always been tribulation so there can really be no final tribulation at the end of the age such as has never occurred.

What I meant to say was, in regard to your effort to determine when the tribulation will start, you need to be on guard against others telling you the scriptures don't portray another temple being rebuilt since the church is the temple of the Holy Spirit. The answer is that another temple being rebuilt and the church ow being the temple of the Holy Spirit are two separate issues. And be on guard against the notion there will be no such thing as a final tribution before Christ returns because the Church has always experienced tribulation and the tribulation Christ spoke of covers all of church history.

The abomination of desolation is when the man of sin goes into the temple set aside (mistakenly)for God and declares Himself to be God and exalts himself above ery object of worship.

When this occurs THEN the great tribulation will begin.

15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

21 for THEN there will be a GREAT TRIBULATION, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will (Matt 24:15-21).

From the mouth of Jesus came a simple, basic ABC 101 order of events that even a child can understand. Nothing complicated at all.

Many have adopted a policy of non-consideration where anything touching the time of Christ’s return is concerned. They point to Jesus’ words, "But of that day and hour no man knows, no, not the angels, but My Father only” (Mt 24:36). Based on this saying, many suppose that it is impossible to know anything definite concerning the time. But to interpret the Lord’s intent in this way would be to deny His own knowledge of the approximate duration of the tribulation. Those that see the abomination will know of a certainty that the desolations of Jerusalem and the persecuting career of the Antichrist will be limited to 42 months (Rev 11:2; 13:5). Yet, for all of this, they will not know any more than the church of today the precise day or hour that the Lord will come. So the limitation must be understood in the context of the Lord’s intention and should not be interpreted to expunge all that the scripture reveals concerning definite times and events, the sure and certain knowledge of which will greatly aid the church in its perseverance and in its final witness to Israel and the nations.

Knowing these things, maybe not the exact day or hour, woll go a long toward the Day of the Lord not coming on the church like a thief. Not knowing the exact day or hour still will not exclude the church's certain knmowledge that the coming of Christ will be very imminent, even right at the door.

docs wrote,

"The abomination of desolation is when the man of sin goes into the temple set aside (mistakenly)for God and declares Himself to be God and exalts himself above ery object of worship.

When this occurs THEN the great tribulation will begin.

15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

21 for THEN there will be a GREAT TRIBULATION, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will (Matt 24:15-21).

From the mouth of Jesus came a simple, basic ABC 101 order of events that even a child can understand. Nothing complicated at all."

_______

I agree docs, that "From the mouth of Jesus came a simple, basic ABC 101 order of events that even a child can understand. Nothing complicated at all."

Here it is, a simple, basic ABC 101 order of events...

- Then is When and When is Then -

"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things out that are in his house; and let him who is in the field not turn back to get his cloak. "But woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days! "But pray that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath; for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. "And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short. "Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance. Matthew 24:15-25

Note:
vs. 15 ...When...
vs. 16 ...Then...
vs. 19 ...Those days...
vs. 21 ...Then...
vs. 22 ...Those Days had been...Those Days shall...
vs. 23 ...Then...
vs. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance.

Jesus said, "I have told YOU in advance."

"Told YOU", What, "in advance."

What they would "see", what they should do, and what they should "not believe."

Everything in between vs. 15-25 cannot be in OUR future. You must have a presupposition to come to such a conclusion. The reading of the text in its context will not bear that out.

Jesus told them in advance, and it most assuredly came to pass as He said it would.

- Then is When and When is Then -

Nothing complicated at all!

It seems awful convenient to speak of verses 15-25 yet leave out the rest of the narrative in verses 26-31.

29 - Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days...

Now read the rest of the verses.

They are part of Jesus' reply also. Has verse 30 occurred yet? The prophecies of Matt 24 will not be completely fulfiilled until Christ returned.

The following passages should be studied to find out how the
phrase this generation is used.

Ӣ Matthew 1:16 whereunto shall I liken this generation?
Ӣ Matthew 12:41 shall rise in judgment with this generation.
Ӣ Matthew 12:42 rise up in the judgment with this generation
Ӣ Matthew 12:45 shall it be also unto this wicked generation
Ӣ Matthew 23:36 things shall come upon this generation
Ӣ Matthew 24:34 This generation shall not pass, till all
Ӣ Mark 8: 38 shall no sign be given unto this generation
Ӣ Mark 13:30 that this generation shall not pass, till all
Ӣ Luke 11:29 He began to say, This is an evil generation
Ӣ Luke 11:30 also the Son of man be to this generation
Ӣ Luke 11:31 the men of this generation and condemn
Ӣ Luke 11:32 with this generation and condemn it
Ӣ Luke 11:51 It shall be required of this generation
Ӣ Luke 17:25 and be rejected of this generation
Ӣ Luke 21:32 This generation shall not pass, till

When the word of God wants to indicate another generation than
the present one the proper language is used as in Hebrews 3:10
where the Lord says He was grieved with that generation.
Everyone understands that the generation the Lord was not pleased with was the Exodus generation.

To contend that Jesus was speaking of things to come in a
future generation is confusing at best and a violation of the
normal usage of language. Jesus spoke many things that would
come to pass in the generation in which the disciples lived andhistory confirms that what the Lord said would happen did
indeed happen.

Between AD 66 and AD 70, the prophetic utterances of Jesus in
Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 began to be fulfilled.

Briefly, the known facts can be stated.

In the summer of the year AD 66, a Jewish revolt broke out in Jerusalem. Led by fanatical zealots this revolt took place against the overbearing Roman procurator named Gessius Florus. From May through November the Jews reacted against his oppressive reign. As a result, Neapolitanus, a Roman
military tribune, was sent from Antioch by Cestius Gallus, the
Roman governor of Syria, to try to calm the Jews. The Jews
refused to be pacified and in the battle that followed they actually gained an advantage against the troops of the governor of Syria. Cestius had to order a retreat, much to the delight of the Jews.

It was not long before word finally reached the emperor Nero in Rome about the explosive situation unfolding in Israel. After deliberation, Nero commissioned a seasoned general, Vespasian, to put down the revolt against imperial Rome and to restore the Pax Romana (the Roman peace). War against the Jews in Jerusalem was officially declared in February, AD 67, when Vespa sign received his commission from Nero. In the Spring of AD 67, Vespasian finally arrived to take charge of the operations in Jerusalem. But the Jews proved to be a strong and resourceful people, not easily subdued. They desperately wanted to be free of Roman bondage and were willing to die for the cause of freedom.

History records that Jerusalem did finally fall to Titus, the son of Vespasian, who took charge of the siege in the late summer of AD 70.

For about forty-two months the Jewish people held out against the greatest military power on the face of the earth.
In broad strokes this was the terrible picture of death and
destruction, violence and chaos between AD 66 and AD 70. The
words of Jesus in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 can be used to paint in the details of this period. What will be seen is a historical fulfillment of the great tribulation that Jesus predicted would come upon the generation He ministered to. These were days of Vengeance as God poured out His wrath on those who dared to kill His Son. The evidence is compelling for a historical fulfillment of the Lord's prophetic utterances of great tribulation upon Israel in AD 70. Those
who were eyewitnesses of the events testify to the judgment of God upon the land. - Stanford Murrell

Hi Docs,
Their are good holy Christians that hold to different views of the Tribulation.
The one thing that most people miss when they dicuss the topic is that its importance or one of its important aspects lies in the fact that it influences your Church view.
It is impossible now to get the time line correct at this moment but I think that before the tribulation start we will know.
I say this for many reasons including the fact that God did not do any major Judgement or event without saying he was going to so,
For Instance
1 Nineveh with Jonah
2 Noah with his generation
3John The Baptist with Jesus(if I judge my judgement is correct)

These were credible witnesses or prophets,totally Credible.
The witness of the coming tribulation will be equally credible.All of the above and other prophets all used accurate information from God.God is not going to allow the tribulation without a recognized credible warning.
Their is no group or individual on the earth today that has both the credible message and at the same time credible standing in the world to deliver this message as of this moment,
We will seed that in the future,
Yours Staff

Staff- what you are saying makes sense if indeed there is a literal future 7 year trib period coming. Maybe there is.

But what savannah had posted cannot be rejected out of hand. I have read the histories and eyewitness accounts of what was happening in Jerusalem during the siege when it was "surrounded by armies." It was absolute mayhem that can only be described as rampant demonic activity. People were taking turns eating each other's children and even though they were starving they would destroy their stores of food rather than let someone else get a hold of them. And of course the brutality of the romans knew no bounds. I cannot imagine a greater tribulation than that. What could be worse than eating your own child?

Staff,

Did you read my post "Inadvertently I was a bit confusing?" Notice the corrections I pointed out if you didn't. The reason I say that is because I agree with most everything you said to me and I believe the tribulation Jesus spoke of is still future.

/It is impossible now to get the time line correct at this moment but I think that before the tribulation start we will know./

Yet according to Jesus, it is not impossible to know the correct time line for the start of the tribulation. The question I replied to was when does the tribulation start. The reply I used was the reply Jesus made in Matthew 24:15-21.

15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

21 for THEN there will be a GREAT TRIBULATION, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will (Matt 24:15-21).

Summary: When you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION spoken of through Daniel the prophet then let those in Judea flee etc. because THEN will be a great tribulation such as has never occurred nor ever shall again. This answer from Jesus as to what begins the tribulation is starkly clear and very simple to understand so that one wonders what can be behind any displacement and denial of these words. That's not tooting my own smartness or whatever above others. It's just that His words are that easy to understand. The AOD signals the beginning of the tribulation that ends in His second coming. "Let the reader understand." Through the reliable words of Jesus, God made it simple for us.

Thank you bro for the time you took to comment to me.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Then let them which be in Judea,.... When this signal is given, let it be taken notice of and observed; let them that are in the city of Jerusalem, depart out of it; or who are in any other parts of Judea, in any of the towns, or cities thereof; let them not betake themselves to Jerusalem, imagining they may be safe there, in so strong and fortified a place, but let them flee elsewhere; see Luke 21:21 and accordingly it is observed, that many did flee about this time; and it is remarked by several interpreters, and which Josephus (a) takes notice of with surprise, that Cestius Gallus having advanced with his army to Jerusalem, and besieged it, on a sudden, without any cause, raised the siege, and withdrew his army, when the city might have been easily taken; by which means a signal was made; and an opportunity given to the Christians, to make their escape: which they accordingly did, and went over Jordan, as Eusebius says (b), to a place called Pella; so that when Titus came a few mouths after, there was not a Christian in the city, but they had fled as they are here bidden to
flee into the mountains; or any places of shelter and refuge: these are mentioned particularly, because they are usually such; and design either the mountains in Judea, or in the adjacent countries. The Syriac and Persic versions read in the singular number, "into the mountain"; and it is reported that many of them did fly, particularly to Mount Libanus

Pulpit Commentary
Verse 16. - Then; i.e. when they shall see "the abomination of desolation," etc. Them which be in Judaea. Not only in Jerusalem, but in its vicinity, as most exposed to danger from the invading army. Flee into (ἐπὶ, over) the mountains. The Christians seem to have taken this advice when the city was attacked by Costius Gallus, about A.D. , some three or more years before the siege under Vespasian. Gallus had appeared before the walls, and apparently had every hope of taking the city, when, for some reason not certainly known (either owing to a supposed defeat, or ignorance of his own success, or the advice of his generals), he suddenly withdrew his forces (Josephus, 'Bell. Jud.,' 2:19, 6, 7). The Christians, bearing Christ's warning in mind, and having, as we may conjecture, seen the predicted sign, took the opportunity of flight from the doomed city, and made their escape to Pella, a town of Decapotis, southeast of Bethshean, and the ruins of which are known now by the name of Fahil. Euschius probably refers to this migration ('Hist. Eccl.,' 3:5), narrating that, owing to a certain revelation given to holy men among them, the whole body of the Church, before the war, removed across the Jordan to Pella, and dwelt there in safety during those troublous times. We probably, however, do not know the exact time of the flight, as we are ignorant of what was the warning of imminent danger which rendered this hurried proceeding necessary.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

16) Then let them which be in Judsea.””The words were acted on when the time came. Eusebius (Hist. Eccl. iii. 5) records that the Christians of Judæa, acting "on a certain oracle,” fled, in A.D. 68, to Pella, a town on the northern boundary of Peræa. So Josephus (Wars, iv. 9, § 1; v. 10, § 1) more generally relates that many of the more conspicuous citizens fled from the city, as men abandon a sinking ship. The "mountains” may be named generally as a place of refuge, or may point, as interpreted by the event, to the Gilead range of hills on the east of Jordan.

Expositor's Greek Testament
Matthew 24:16. οἱ ἐν τῇ Ἰ., those in Judaea who have no part in the struggle, with special reference to disciples of Jesus. There would naturally be some in the city, therefore the counsel to fly must refer to a point of time antecedent to the commencement of the siege.””ἐπὶ Ï„á½° ὄρη, to the mountains outside of Judaea, i.e., east of the Jordan; general as befits prophetic speech. The actual place of refuge was Pella, as we learn from Eusebius, H. E., iii., 5, 3.

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
16. let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains] Many Christians, warned by this prediction (according to Euseblus, H.E. iii. 5, "by a certain oracle”), took refuge at Pella in Peræa during the siege of Jerusalem.

Bengel's Gnomen
Matthew 24:16. Τότε, then) This answers to πότε, when, in Matthew 24:3. The word "then” often occurs in this discourse.””οἱ ἐν τῇ Ἰουδαίᾳ, those that are in Judea) not all the Jews, nor Christians dwelling elsewhere; but those who, believing the word of Jesus, should be in Judea.””φευγέτωσαν, let them flee) without hope that the siege might be raised.””ἐπὶ Ï„á½° ὄρη, into the mountains) Safety was here promised in the mountains: and it was afterwards found there at Pella. See Eusebius H. E. iii. 5. Jesus warns His followers not to think that they would be safe within the city, in opposition to the persuasion pertinaciously maintained during the actual siege by the carnal prudence of the Jews.

I think we can agree that many of the events described in Matt. 24 were fulfilled in AD70, but that does mean they will not be fulfilled in greater measure in the future. Also some of the signs mentioned in Matt. 24 were definitely not fulfilled in AD70. That has to be agreed as well. So either Jesus was mistaken, or there is a future fulfilment to these.

As was discussed in the other topic on Israel, we have to understand prophecy as having multiple fulfilments. That is a very clear understanding in scripture. So when we read the OT prophets before the Babylonian captivity prophesing about the coming judgdment, we see this fulfilled in the immediate context of Babylon, but again in greater measure in AD70. Why not also then not in even greater measure at a future tribulation?! This seems to be the only way to undestand these prophecies without ignoring great parts that obviously did not yet happen, otherwise we do violence to the truth of God's word. Please read ALL of Matt.24 and tell us if it has ALL been fulfilled and when.

I think it is lazy exegesis to see one (partial) filfilment and say when, 'that's it done then'!

The only problem Dave is that at he end of his predictions Jesus bookends his comments with the phrase "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till **all** these things take place."

Savannah showed below how the word "generation" is used by Jesus in the gospels.

It would seem strange that all of a sudden, without warning, Jesus changed the meaning of that word to some generation more than 2000 years away. When he begins the phrase "assuredy I say to **you**" (his disciples) he seems to be expressing a sense of urgency- in other words, to paraphrase, "Listen up guys, this is important. This is all going to happen in your lifetimes. So pay attention!"

In Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus prophesied of His own second coming. That did not happen in 70 AD so the Olivet Discourse could not have been exhaustively fulfilled in spite of the events of 70 AD.

NEAR/FAR PATTERN FULFILLMENT OF PROPHECY

George Eldon Ladd:

The prophets spoke not only of contemporary events; they constantly related contemporary historical events to the last great event at the end of history: the Day of the Lord when God will visit his people and establish his kingdom.

The prophets had two foci in their prophetic perspective: the events of the present and the immediate future and the ultimate eschatological event.

These two are held in a dynamic tension often without chronological distinction.

The main purpose of prophecy is not to give a program or chart of the future, but to let the light of the eschatological consummation fall on the present (II Peter 2:19).

In other words, the imminent historical judgment is seen as a type of, or a prelude to, the eschatological judgment. The two are often blended together in apparent disregard for chronology, for the same God who acts in the imminent historical judgment will also act in the final eschatological judgment to further his one redemptive purpose.

The best method of interpreting prophecy and the Revelation is a blending of the preterist and futuristic methods.[1]

Fred Zaspel:

It has long been recognized that Biblical prophecy is normally fulfilled not in a single event but in a series of events which bring the prophecy to it final culmination.

Seldom is the answer one-to-one but one-to-one, two, three, four, and so on. In the unfolding of redemptive history the prophecy is seen to take on a wider or more detailed significance.

Older Bible teachers described this as "double" or "dual" fulfill-ment and as the "near view" and "far view" of prophecy.

Interpreters today speak more in terms of sensus plenior, a phrase offered to describe the "fuller sense" seemingly given to certain OT prophecies as they are unfolded in the light of NT revelation.

Others would prefer to speak in terms of a "canonical process" which develops more fully and more specifically the original sense and intent of the prophecy.

More popularly, interpreters speak of the "now and not yet" aspect of Biblical prophecy, emphasizing that a given prophecy may well come to realization now yet await its fuller manifestation later; its fulfillment is both now and later. Biblical prophecy normally unfolds in a progressively fulfilling way. In the unfolding of redemptive history the prophecy is seen to take on a wider or more detailed significance.

Yes, there is the occasional one-to-one fulfillment. The Bethlehem prophecy (Mic.5:2) provides one example. But it is generally more complex than this, and examples in the prophetic Word abound.

The fulfillment comes in a succession of events which brings prophecy to its full consummation.

The prophecies of the coming of the Messiah unfold similarly. They may not have known it beforehand, but it is clear that the Messiah's coming is a two-stage event. There is the first coming and the second. At the first the promise was realized, but not until the second is it consummated.

Prophecy is progressively fulfilled.

Nor is it a mere "dual" prophecy. It is rather that the "sooner" realization is of a piece with the full and final manifestation of it. The single prophecy finds a progressive unfolding in stages.

This matter of progressive fulfillment is standard issue in Biblical prophecy. It is not the exception but the rule. And it cannot be ignored.

The pattern of near/far fulfillment of bibliocal prophecy simply must be borne in mind when seeking to interpret the prophetic Word, lest we take a mere part for the whole.

The interpreter must be careful to be comprehensive in his study before announcing "this is that." Only when the prophecy is "full" is it "fulfilled."

Due recognition of this principle is vital to accurate interpretation of the prophetic Word. It is not the exception but IS the rule.

Often it is the case that two sides of a prophetic debate, each with a part of the whole, make as though the whole were their "part." It's often so that neither side is wrong in what they are saying, except that they have only one half of the picture.

But not until all the parts are together is there the whole. And again, we must not announce fulfillment until we are sure the prophecy has been filled. [2]

[1] Geoorge Eldon Ladd - Intro to "A Commentary on the Revelation of John" - copyright 1972.

[2] Fred Zaspel - from paper "Preterism & Bibvlical Prophecy" - copyright 1997.

This Zaspel paper can be read at: http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/eschatology/preter.htm

Quote: "In Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus prophesied of His own second coming. That did not happen in 70 AD so the Olivet Discourse could not have been exhaustively fulfilled in spite of the events of 70 AD."

Perhaps this is a supposition. What it is about this text that DEMANDS it be speaking of the Second Coming? I think this is very key; if Mt. 24 is not referencing the Second Coming-i.e. Jesus's literal return to the earth to establish His reign forever, then all the difficulties in the Olivet Discourse disappear. I have said this before-- you don't need Mt. 24 to show that Jesus is coming again.

Here is the text:

"Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Here are some other passages referencing "clouds:"

"He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters, Who makes the clouds His chariot, Who walks on the wings of the wind." Ps. 103:4

"Sing to God, sing praises to His name; Extol Him who rides on the cloud..." Ps. 68:4

"I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed." Dan 7:13-14

"Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Mt. 26:64

Gill's Commentary on this passage:

"Ver. 30 "And then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven." Not the sound of the great trumpet, mentioned in the following verse; nor the clouds of heaven in this; nor the sign of the cross appearing in the air, as it is said to do in the times of Constantine: not the former; for though to blow a trumpet is sometimes to give a sign, and is an alarm; and the feast which the Jews call the day of blowing the trumpets, ( Numbers 29:1 ) is, by the Septuagint, rendered (hmera shmasiav) , "the day of signification"; yet this sign is not said to be sounded, but to appear, or to be seen, which does not agree with the sounding of a trumpet: much less can this design the last trumpet at the day of judgment, since of that the text does not speak; and, for the same reason, the clouds cannot be meant in which Christ will come to judgment, nor are clouds in themselves any sign of it: nor the latter, of which there is no hint in the word of God, nor any reason to expect it, nor any foundation for it; nor is any miraculous star intended, such as appeared at Christ's first coming, but the son of man himself: just as circumcision is called the sign of circumcision, ( Romans 4:11 ) and Christ is sometimes called a sign, ( Luke 2:34 ) as is his resurrection from the dead, ( Matthew 12:39 ) and here the glory and majesty in which he shall come: and it may be observed, that the other evangelists make no mention of the sign, only speak of the son of man, ( Mark 13:26 ) ( Luke 21:27 ) and he shall appear, not in person, but in the power of his wrath and vengeance, on the Jewish nation which will be a full sign and proof of his being come: for the sense is, that when the above calamities shall be upon the civil state of that people, and there will be such changes in their ecclesiastical state it will be as clear a point, that Christ is come in the flesh, and that he is also come in his vengeance on that nation, for their rejection and crucifixion him, as if they had seen him appear in person in the heavens. They had been always seeking a sign, and were continually asking one of him; and now they will have a sign with a witness; as they had accordingly. And then shall the tribes of the earth,
or land, mourn;
that is, the land of Judea; for other lands, and countries, were not usually divided into tribes, as that was; neither were they affected with the calamities and desolations of it, and the vengeance of the son of man upon it; at least not so as to mourn on that account, but rather were glad and rejoiced: and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven,
with power and great glory.
The Arabic version reads it, "ye shall see", as is expressed by Christ, in ( Matthew 26:64 ) . Where the high priest, chief priests, Scribes, and elders, and the whole sanhedrim of the Jews are spoken to: and as the same persons, namely, the Jews, are meant here as there; so the same coming of the son of man is intended; not his coming at the last day to judgment; though that will be in the clouds of heaven, and with great power and glory; but his coming to bring on, and give the finishing stroke to the destruction of that people, which was a dark and cloudy dispensation to them: and when they felt the power of his arm, might, if not blind and stupid to the last degree, see the glory of his person, that he was more than a mere man, and no other than the Son of God, whom they had despised, rejected, and crucified; and who came to set up his kingdom and glory in a more visible and peculiar manner, among the Gentiles."

/What it is about this text that DEMANDS it be speaking of the Second Coming?/

Because it is speaking about the Second Coming.

The question asked Jesus was, What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?" That is about His second coming.

Try also considering the sensus plenior near/far fulfillment pattern of prophecy being fulfilled. It's a very time tested and wide spread belief regarding biblical prophecy.

/I have said this before-- you don't need Mt. 24 to show that Jesus is coming again./

But by the grace of God we do have it for our instruction and thank the Lord that we do. God has given us much and simplified so much yet these notions floating about tend to deny the words God has given and make it complicated when God has spoken in such simplicity so that anyone can understand. I shy away from rearranging and reintepreting what God has so faithfully presented to His church. If I err then I err on the side of safety. If I am a simpleton then I do so on the side of God having spoke simply and plainly. Third graders can understand the Olivet Discourse. It doesn't take a exegetical genuis.

Why does the partially realized eschatology of the New Testament supposedly change (or totally eliminate) all that the prophets said about many things not being fulfilled until the post-tribulational Day of the Lord? It doesn't! The only thing that has really changed is the additional knowledge that the Day of the Lord will be the return of Him who came to accomplish an atonement and open a door of faith to the non believing Gentiles. HOW and WHY does this supposedly remove all of the highly descriptive events that were prophesied to never be fulfilled until the final time of great tribulation leading to the Day of the Lord - the day of Christ's return. Why can't these things still happen? Why? Say for instance, 90% of prophecy has already been fulfilled how and why would that dissolve the remaining 10% to be fulfilled? Where do folks get off thinking they can do so much violence to the plain words of God by changing the meaning of or eliminating these things? There's nothing necessary in doing so. Meanwhile, my opinion is that, accordingly, Gill's first paragraph reveals he doesn't mind doing exegetical violence to the text. Why tamper with plain and simple to understand language? God has presented these things in a pretty simple basic 101 order of events that man has bent over backwards to complicate. Hence the confusion which God is not the author of.

Nuf from here. I'm really not into saying more about it. The plainness of the text is good enough for me.

Blessings and thank you.

With the exception of an ambiguous quote from a basicly unknown Ishodad of Merv from 850 .
Is there anyone in the First 1400-1500 years or so of Church history that wrote any thing about rebuilding a physical temple, a peace deal , or any thing taking place with the Israel people or the middle east having anything to do with eschatology ?

clarity

I agree with what Greg wrote.

Question: When does tribulation begin?
Answer: The moment you give your life to Christ!

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

John 16:33 (KJV)

As Greg indicated, we should be aware of tribulation and prepared to endure however it may come with the grace and peace of God.

The period of "great tribulation" will ultimately come upon the whole earth. I believe that there is a clear difference between "tribulation" in this world and the "wrath of God" that will be poured out.

Some believe that Christ will gather his bride -- the Church -- prior to the wrath of God being poured out. Others believe that Christians will live through that period but that they will be supernaturally protected from the wrath of God. Still others believe that the Church will be forced to endure both the tribulation of that day AND the wrath of God.

I think that being prepared to suffer while we keep our eyes upon Jesus is the surest way to get through that time.

As for when the "great tribulation" will begin: I really don't know for sure.