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Trying to be More Christ-Like

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sermonindex

by Elliot Coatney

I often hear in Christian circles that our goal as believers to is to be more like Christ, to become more Christlike, or some other version of that idea. For most Christians today, this is probably a familiar concept”“one that is often addressed in public prayer, devotions, sermons, newsletters and the like. If becoming more Christlike is a biblical concept, what does it mean, and how do we do it?

It seems that what most Christians mean when they talk about being more like Christ is having more of the qualities Jesus had (and less of the qualities he didn’t). Christ loved others more than himself, he was obedient to God, humble, honest, righteous and faithful. How do we get more of these qualities? Typically, the answer is that we get more of these qualities through prayer, Bible reading, fellowship, God’s help, feeding the new nature, starving the old nature, or maybe self-denial or self-discipline”“but none of these are the answer.

The surprising truth is that we are NOT meant to be more like Christ. God’s plan is for Christ to live His life through us. This is a fundamentally different thing than becoming like Him. And how does this happen? How do we as believers have Christ live out His life through us and as us? This happens not by doing anything but by receiving””receiving the person of Christ by faith and trusting Him to live out His life through us.

It is in fact dangerous to think that we can be more like Jesus apart from expressing His life and His spirit. Think of the original sin of Lucifer (Adam’s and Eve’s sin came later). Lucifer was an angel and God’s "light bearer,” but Lucifer wasn’t satisfied to bear the light of another. He wanted to be a light unto himself, independent of God (Isaiah 14:14). It was this same false and impossible idea of independence with which Satan infected Adam (Gen 3:5), and through Adam, all mankind (Rom 5:12).

To think that we can or should be more like Christ by working harder to have attributes like him is to believe the false idea of independence authored by Satan. For the believer, this deception doesn’t jeopardize salvation, but it does keep the believer from being all that God intends him to be. As believers, we unwittingly give Satan a foothold in our lives unless we put our faith in the truth that all attributes of Christ exist in His person alone and that our purpose and design is simply to say yes to expressing them (really expressing Him) as a free and willing vessel. Jesus himself said: "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do NOTHING” (emphasis added, John 15:5). The last thing Satan wants is for a believer to know who he is as a vessel and to understand how God created him to operate by faith in that fact.

If you believe that you have an independent human nature and that your purpose is to develop more of the attributes that Christ had, you can admittedly find some support for this view in scripture”“more so in versions like the New Living and NIV which seem to have been translated with this as a premise and less so in versions like King James or NAS which do not. If you are willing to consider that scripture is saying something altogether different”“that we have no independent nature of our own but instead express through our human selves the divine Spirit of Christ or the false spirit of error Satan””then scripture has new meaning.

The handful of verses that refer to "walking as Christ walked” or "imitating Christ” are not meant to be understood as repeating behaviors or attitudes. These verses simply mean that we are to live by faith as Jesus did, and His faith was this: "I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). Christ acted boldly always pointing to the Father. He wasn’t saying: "Act as I act, and behave as I behave.” He was saying: "See how I and the Father are one. The same is true for you, and now act on that fact by faith, as I do.”

1 John 4:16-17 says that "God is love.” The passage continues on to say that "as He is, so also are we in this world.” (Note how this passage in the New Living Translation ends up with much more of a behave-like-Jesus sense: "We live like Jesus here in this world.”) Love is the very person of God. God determined that He would eternally say no to being self-for-self, that He would eternally be self-for-others, and that He would give Himself totally for his creation. All the so-called attributes of Jesus, even the Fruits of the Spirit of Gal 5:22, are manifestations of God himself, not feelings or even actions. We can’t be more like God or more like Jesus. We can only contain and express Him. We can’t be loving toward another”“only God can be love through us. I can’t have more love or get more love because God is love in me and is joined to me in one Spirit. Jesus Himself said, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone” (Luke 18:19). He is living His life by me as long as I have no known sin I am holding onto.

So how can we be more like Christ? We can’t! We can’t be more like Him, we can only be Him””Christ himself expressed through our vessels. For those believers who know, despite their best efforts, they don’t measure up and their righteousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6), the news that Christ is there to live out His life and to be everything we know we can’t be seems almost too good to be true. But it is true, and all we have to "do” is believe it, and He lives it out.

T
TMK

Ephesians 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children.

1 John 3:3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

This is a two part process. The HS does his part but we must do our part.

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sermonindex

True Christianity is simply believing the truth and standing firm in it.

Religion tries to make you do something or to avoid something to fix a problem that does not even really exist.

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Sree


Typically, the answer is that we get more of these qualities through prayer, Bible reading, fellowship, God’s help, feeding the new nature, starving the old nature, or maybe self-denial or self-discipline”“but none of these are the answer.

This article is a complete lie. It is lie of the Devil. We see the moderators take serious action against people who come with some dangerous ideology and keep posting in SI. Why is the same step not taken here?

If a person ignores Bible reading, does not feed the new man then he cannot become like Jesus, period. No matter what faith they have. Just belief will not save someone.

If this article is true then at least someone should be christlike in the past 2000 years, but none including the Apostles were completely Christlike. Which means Christianity is a failure.

This kind of do nothing Christianity is a biggest lie of Satan.

1 John 3:3 is good enough to prove this article wrong. Even John the Baptist said he should decrease and Christ should increase. The life of Jesus growing in us is incremental. It starts with having an attitude of Jesus. That is why Paul says we should have the attitude of Jesus to Philippians.

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proudpapa

RE : /// Typically, the answer is that we get more of these qualities through prayer, Bible reading, fellowship, God’s help, feeding the new nature, starving the old nature, or maybe self-denial or self-discipline”“but none of these are the answer.///

Will Worship and voluntary humility are the sanctification formula's of many religions.

Case in point :

The sanctification formula above is most often described by the old Cherokee Legend - Two Wolves or black dog vs white dog.

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BranchinVINE

Hi Todd,

The Holy Spirit does His part SO we can do our part.


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TMK

Agreed, but we still have to do it. He won't force us.

B
BranchinVINE

When the Holy Spirt works in us, He also fills us with the desire and the joy to "do it" so that it never ever is the burden of "we have to do it".

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sermonindex

The surprising truth is that we are NOT meant to be more like Christ. God’s plan is for Christ to live His life through us. This is a fundamentally different thing than becoming like Him. And how does this happen? How do we as believers have Christ live out His life through us and as us? This happens not by doing anything but by receiving””receiving the person of Christ by faith and trusting Him to live out His life through us.

Saints,

There is a subtle deception in the article that TUC shared. In that it sounds very spiritual and wonderful if we just believe and somehow Christianity just happens. But as others have pointed out the Scriptures are full of commands to self-denial, discipleship, godliness, saying no to sin, etc. The Spirit of God leads us in these things but we must also make choices and follow the Lord.

The message of hyper-grace is very popular now amongst modern evangelicals as it suits the desire people have not to fast, not to say now to the world's tv, pleasures and other amusements. Hyper grace takes the pressure off for believers to need to fight against sin and mortify the deeds of the body that they may live (Colossians 3:4-7).

I remember sharing Scriptures in a men's bible study and I gave a comment that we need to be diligent to be in the Word of God and be very disciplined in our flesh to read the Scriptures. A few people revolted in anger and told me how dare I would suggest that they "needed" to read the Scriptures everyday. One man even made the statement: "I will only read the Scriptures if the Spirit leads me." I was shocked at their reaction and realized that these men have bought into the lie of the false grace message that God will never go against our wonderful life and desires and he will just bless and work with us so we can have our best life now on the earth.

Religious disciplines also are frowned upon and the very use of the world religion is considered too strict, legalistic and devoid of the Spirit. Yet the Scriptures themselves use the word, that there is one true religion from above (James 1:27).


When the Holy Spirt works in us, He also fills us with the desire and the joy to "do it" so that it never ever is the burden of "we have to do it".

Brother,

How would this statement work with the New Testament Scriptures where many times we are told to deny self, deny our desires and ask to have the desires of Christ. Taking up our cross daily is not always something we want to do, but we know we should. Joy follows obedience and does not always precede it.


B
BranchinVINE


Dear brother Greg,

Greg, I am a sister, not a brother.

To me, to "deny self, deny our desires and ask to have the desires of Christ…… taking up our cross” is simply to totally look away from self and to see the Lord Jesus alone, to be nothing that Christ may be everything in me.

That the Holy Spirit fills us with the desire and the joy to "do it” is my own personal experience. I am all for righteousness and holiness and I have learnt that apart from Christ I can do nothing.

Christianity is not a burden to me.

"I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart” (Psalm 40:8).

A
AbideinHim

Have you despaired of yourself, or do you hope that if you read and pray more you will be a better Christian? Biblereading and prayer are not wrong, and God forbid that we should suggest that they are, but it is wrong to trust even in them for victory. Our help is in Him who is the object of that reading and prayer. Our trust must be in Christ alone. Happily the " wretched man " does not merely deplore his wretchedness; he asks a fine question, namely: " Who shall deliver me?" " Who?" Hitherto he has looked for some thing ; now his hope is in a Person. Hitherto he has looked within for a solution to his problem; now he looks beyond himself for a Saviour. He no longer puts forth self-effort ; all his expectation is now in Another.

How did we obtain forgiveness of sins? Was it by reading, praying, almsgiving, and so on? No, we looked to the Cross, believing in what the Lord Jesus had done; and deliverance from sin becomes ours on exactly the same principle, nor is it otherwise with the question of pleasing God. In the matter of forgiveness we look to Him on the Cross; in the matter of deliverance from sin and of doing the will of God we look to Him in our hearts. For the one we depend on what He has done; for the other we depend on what He will do in us; but in regard to both, our dependence is on Him alone. He is the One who does it all. ( Watchman Nee)

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sermonindex

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=58759&forum=35

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

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BranchinVINE

Hymn "Haven of Rest”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK9ufX4G2FU

Author: Henry L. Gilmour (1890)

My soul in sad exile was out on life’s sea,
So burdened with sin and distressed,
Till I heard a sweet voice, saying, "Make Me your choice”;
And I entered the "Haven of Rest”!

Refrain:
I’ve anchored my soul in the "Haven of Rest,”
I’ll sail the wide seas no more;
The tempest may sweep over wild, stormy, deep,
In Jesus I’m safe evermore.

I yielded myself to His tender embrace,
In faith taking hold of the Word,
My fetters fell off, and I anchored my soul;
The "Haven of Rest” is my Lord.

The song of my soul, since the Lord made me whole,
Has been the old story so blest,
Of Jesus, who’ll save whosoever will have
A home in the "Haven of Rest.”

How precious the thought that we all may recline,
Like John, the beloved so blest,
On Jesus’ strong arm, where no tempest can harm,
Secure in the "Haven of Rest.”

Oh, come to the Savior, He patiently waits
To save by His power divine;
Come, anchor your soul in the "Haven of Rest,”
And say, "My Beloved is mine.”

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sermonindex

To me, to "deny self, deny our desires and ask to have the desires of Christ…… taking up our cross” is simply to totally look away from self and to see the Lord Jesus alone, to be nothing that Christ may be everything in me.

Sister,

I do appreciate your desire to simplify what it is to follow Christ as in the end it comes to a personal relationship of knowing and following Jesus Christ. We must also realize that relationships mean work and commitment. Such as marriage is knowing a spouse but also doing much work that at times is hard to do such as cleaning dishes, working on things you do not want to, etc. It is not automatic but much hard work and discipline.


1 Peter 1:14-15New International Version (NIV)

14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;


The Lord gives specific commands for us to do certain things with our tongues, bodies, minds, heart, and with our time and energy. God does not control us to do it all but we have to make a decision and or ask the Lord for help. It is not all automatic.

1 Peter 2:11-12New International Version (NIV)

11 Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. 12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.


We are still in sinful bodies with redeemed hearts, therefore we are to abstain from sinful desires. This is warfare and not easy. If the answer was what you wrote then the rest of the New Testament would not need to be written but of course we have many commands, warnings, and godly counsel on how to act, behave, and follow the Lord.



Our trust must be in Christ alone. Happily the " wretched man " does not merely deplore his wretchedness

This is not Biblical Christianity to believe we are wretched and will do evil continually till we die and are in heaven. If we are not delivered daily, redeemed daily to walk in victory over sins then we have to ask ourselves are we truly redeemed and the Lord's to start with? If the Person of Jesus Christ dwells in us we will not be able to continue in sins.

We are forgiven by Jesus Christ's blood, and now we follow the Lord in discipleship because of being forgiven. Of course no obedience clears away sins, but that does not negate the need for obedience and following the Lord in reading, praying, almsgiving, etc.

"pleasing God" Yes it is actually about pleasing God, as the Scriptures give us many references (Romans 12:1, Ephesians 5:8-10, 2 Corinthians 5:9).

Ephesians 5:8-10

for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.

What Watchman Nee is saying is that our pleasing God or doing things never merits forgiveness and of course we all agree with this. But after forgiveness we should seek to be pleasing to Him that purchased us at such a great price.

And all righteousness now we do is because we are redeemed with the Holy Spirit in our hearts, so it comes from reliance on the Lord therefore, but that does not negate doing "good works" and following in practical righteousness or mortifying and saying no to sinful desires.

T
TMK

Jesus spoke about counting the cost before deciding whether to be His disciple. He seemed to think it would not be a bed of roses.

B
BranchinVINE

Greg, do we become righteous by faith or by works?


B
BranchinVINE

Jesus also said, "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest."

H
Heydave

Reading the posts on this thread I can see how what appears to be opposing sides on this issue are really both presenting a truth, but can be emphasising mainly one side of a truth.

Let me try and give an illustration....
If I am given a light aircraft to fly, I have been given the ability and power to fly up into the sky and travel at speed to where I desire. However I still need to actually use the controls and fly the aircraft, I cannot just get in and expect it to do everything for me, while I do nothing and just sit there in peace (unless you think we are just like passengers on an airline). So there is some effort and action required from me. It is also true that if I decided not to make use of the aircraft, but rather makes some large wings, strap them to my arms an flap with all my might I will not even get off the ground! That is deluded self effort destined to fail.

In an effort to warn about the foolishness of self effort (homemade wings), we should not advise being an airline passenger, but to take hold of the things (light aircraft) given to us by Christ.

Not passengers! See 2 Peter 3-7.....

..."as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,"

"by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

..."But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge,"

"to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,"

"to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love." NKJV.

This seems very clear....He has given all we need. We show diligence to make use of what has been given.


T
TMK

Awesome Dave. Great analogy.

S
sermonindex

How do you do that? By believing the truth God's gifts are already yours, you just need to believe it.

We just need to cooperate with Him by believing what He says is truth.

You can believe GOD - NOW

This is the requirement - He even supplies the faith you need.

Believe what? What God has said about you.

You were actually with and in Christ - when He died on the cross.

When He rose from the dead you were there with Him and in Him.

His Life is NOW yours - His PERFECT obedience is now yours.
His Perfect Righteousness is now yours.

IT IS DONE!! Stand fast in the Liberty in WHICH HE WAS SET YOU FREE!!

Believe it NOW - Take it NOW

T
TMK

Tuc-

You keep saying that but I have no idea what you mean.

Tell us what you mean from a *practical* standpoint.

If someone were to say to you "ok tuc, I'm ready to do what you say. Please tell me exactly what I have to do step by step," what would you tell that person?

You can't just tell them to just rest in what Jesus has done because that is meaningless to them.

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TrueWitness

Yes Dave, I agree with you. Our walk with God involves God doing His part and us doing our part. It is easy to overemphasize either God’s side or our side. There is truth on both sides. Those who overemphasize our side of it come off as Pelagianists who are striving after self-righteousness. Those who overemphasize God’s side of it come off as being lazy and naïve. As long as we live in unglorified bodies we as Christians have to be ever on the lookout for the stirrings of the flesh and deal with it. You have to want to stay free from it and then you need to reckon on your being dead to sin, alive to God and your newborn spirit man, empowered by the Holy Spirit, is greater and more powerful than the flesh. When you look to the indwelling Spirit to live the Christian life, He comes to you and meets you in that moment to enable you to live the Christian life.

To be honest, it is far easier to think of the Christian life as just being concerned with rules and us just buckling down and doing them while ignoring all this stuff about the Spirit and reckoning, faith, etc. This is Phariseeism and results in burnout. Transformation is not from the outside in, it is from the inside and works outward. God gives grace to the humble. Admit that in and of yourself you cannot live the Christian life. When testings and trials and temptations come to you, keep your focus on the new life of the newborn spirit man in you empowered by the Holy Spirit and draw on the power he supplies to overcome all that stands in your way.

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Cor. 3:18

Again, there is truth in both sides, discipline/self-control and walking in the power of the Spirit. Let us respect each side and not let this subject become a contentious issue like the Calvinism/Arminianism debate.

S
sermonindex

Hebrews 11:6, "Without belief it is impossible to please God."

Which means - without believing God's truth, it is impossible to please Him.

So do you really believe what God had said about you?

Do you believe that when Christ died you died with Him?
Do you believe That when He rose from the dead you were with Him?

Do you believe that you are now a new Creation? - That you are holy and are now the righteousness of God In Christ?

Do you believe that Christ Himself actually dwells in you, abides in you and you are now in perfect union with Him?

Yes this is 100% literal - not positional - You must believe and TAKE it.

J
jujashan4

Greg - Hi :-) I think you may think TUC is saying something beyond what he's actually saying? Not sure but it just seems you're responding to things that weren't actually said?
The article didn't say anything about it being ok to be unrighteous

Todd - Somewhere the scripture says "make every effort to enter His rest" - at least I think that's what it says - how would you explain that to somebody?

In one of his books Roy Hession quotes Major Ian Thomas as saying, something like this "... we think the resources of the Christian life are prayer, bible reading, going to church ... But the resource of the Christian is Christ Himself."

I'm pretty sure you will find the same teaching as in the original article on sermonindex in the teaching of Norman Grubb, Roy Hession, Major Ian Thomas and more.

I believe the negative reactions to it are because you think it's saying something beyond what it says. Sorry if I'm wrong.

Love and appreciate you my brothers and sisters.

H
Heydave

Quote: "Hebrews 11:6, "Without belief it is impossible to please God."

Which means - without believing God's truth, it is impossible to please Him."


Maybe this is the crux of misunderstanding. Faith is NOT just believing a set of truths. Biblical faith according to Hebrews 11, James, etc has corresponding action. It absolutely is believing what God says, but is then acted upon. faith without works (action) is dead (i.e. not real faith).

tuc, can I ask how you understand 2 Peter 1:3-7? In particular what does it mean to be diligent to add to your faith.. self contril, etc?

Edit: corrected scripture reference.
Also Hebrews 11 says "But without faith it is impossible to please Him" FAITH not believing. They're not the same thing. What translation are you using??

S
Sree

This thread is not Calvinistic view vs Armanianistic view. It is vs DO NOTHING Christianity vs Biblical Christianity. There is clearly deception and lie in the original article. I am not surprised that many are not able to identify it here.

A simple question, if we have already become like Jesus if we believe, then why should we purify ourself like 1 John 3:3. I does 1 John 1 say that if we say we do not have sin then we make him a liar? Why is no one including Apostle Paul lived completely like Jesus lived (the perfect life)? If Paul too lacked the faith and belief that he has already become like Jesus? Or is Christianity a failure, that only speaks theory and practically impossible to live out?

There is human responsibility to sanctification. Any one who denies it makes himself a liar. Any article that denies it is also a lie, no matter how cleverly the lie is hidden.

I am more interested to know the personal testimony of those who believe in such DO NOTHING Christianity. Did they really believe they are living as Jesus lived? I am not interested in such theories, but want to know their life. How is their personal life, are they free from adultery of all form including lusting of eye? How is their family life? How is their fellowship with wife and children? How have they raised their children? If their life is not showing any Christlikeness in these areas then their belief is a lie. Jesus is just a theory to them.

T
TMK

Quote:"In one of his books Roy Hession quotes Major Ian Thomas as saying, something like this "... we think the resources of the Christian life are prayer, bible reading, going to church ... But the resource of the Christian is Christ Himself."

True but how do we enter into this? Much of it is by the things listed. So it is like circular reasoning.

J
jujashan4

Through faith brother Todd.

... For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed that is by faith from first to last." - or from faith to faith.

It's all I believe, about full surrender to the Lord and faith in (leaning on) Him - the risen Lord
And being filled with His Spirit.

It's certainly not "do nothing Christianity" Sree but more like John 15 apart from me you can do nothing - if you abide in me and my words abide in you you will bear much fruit showing yourselves to be my disciples

Remember in Galatians Paul talks of the fruit of the Spirit. Some believers think we must try to "do" these but in fact they are indeed the Spirits fruit or they show that the Holy Spirit is there. So as the believer walks trusting in the Lord - given over to His will - filled with the Holy Spirit the fruit are evident.

Trust on the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

The book "They Found The Secret" may be helpful.


Y
yuehan

Paraphrasing from someone else: "It is right believing that produces right living, not the other way round."

That has been my experience.


S
sermonindex


How do you do that? By believing the truth God's gifts are already yours, you just need to believe it.

We just need to cooperate with Him by believing what He says is truth.

You can believe GOD - NOW

This is the requirement - He even supplies the faith you need.

Believe what? What God has said about you.

You were actually with and in Christ - when He died on the cross.

When He rose from the dead you were there with Him and in Him.

His Life is NOW yours - His PERFECT obedience is now yours.
His Perfect Righteousness is now yours.

IT IS DONE!! Stand fast in the Liberty in WHICH HE WAS SET YOU FREE!!

Believe it NOW - Take it NOW


"Hebrews 11:6, "Without belief it is impossible to please God."

Tuc, (not sure your real name)

What you are sharing has some elements of truth, as the Word of God says we are saved by the death and blood of Jesus Christ. But it does not say just "believe" in all things and not "do." Wiithout "faith" it is impossible to "PLEASE" God and "faith" without works is dead.

From all my readings and study of contemporary christianity, it seems you are either quoting or re-packaging Joseph Prince and others like him who are preaching what some are terming: Hyper Grace.

What you are sharing does not conform to the belief of the featured sermons and speakers on this website as I believe it is border-line a false gospel. Modern preachers are seeking to present the cross without a cross. They are preserving the man and not preaching self-denial.

I encourage you to watch this video documentary we shared:

HYPER GRACE Documentary (feat. Dr. Michael Brown, David Ravenhill and Eric Ludy)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtRVWeoNuvw

also:

What is Hyper Grace? by Shane Idleman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om1HgBIkzdA

Hyper-Grace and Religious Hypocrisy In The Last Days - (Carter Conlon, Zac Poonen)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1X4qrqB_H0

Hyper-Grace The Great Deception of the 21st Century by Michael L. Brown
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEQj9sBEOEw

H
Heydave

Yuehan, I would agree that it has to be that way around, however right believing does not always produce right living. That is because there has to be real faith in acting on what we believe. I am making a distiction betweem 'faith' and 'believing' a set of truths, because they are very different . I see faith as an attribute (based on Hebrews 11 and James 2), much like humility or kindness is an attribute. You cannot say you have humility or kindness without it being evident in your actions. In the same way faith does not exist seperately from how we live, but is always manifested in some tangible way.

I think the great shame of modern times is that we have made 'faith' into just mental belief or some mysterious unseen force, when in fact it is a virtuous attribute that should be a manifest part of part of our character in the same way as humility, kindness, love, etc. Now all these attributes come from God and not ourselves and to Him we should go to for the supply we need. In fact faith comes by hearing the Word of God. So as we spend time in God's word and in prayer we receive these things we need. These are God's means of grace to enable us to receive His life for us, so to denegrate them as unnecessary for holiness (as has been suggested by some) is wrong I believe.

S
Sree


It's certainly not "do nothing Christianity" Sree but more like John 15 apart from me you can do nothing - if you abide in me and my words abide in you you will bear much fruit showing yourselves to be my disciples

I agree with John 15 in which Jesus said apart from me you can do nothing. But that is not the complete truth. The complete truth is to join that statement with 'I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength' (Phil 4:13).

1 Cor 15:10 - But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace to me was not in vain. No, I worked harder than all of them ”” yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me

This is the complete truth. We cannot ignore Human part totally out by just quoting John 15.

Like I said, I am interested in the life testimony of those who believe in this 'Christ will do everything' theology. Show me how your life is. If Tuc can post so much why not post his personal testimony? How about inviting others to come and see his family life, personal purity etc. If a life of Come and see is not there, then all the theology is total rubbish.

T
TrueWitness

Yes Dave, I agree with you. God has made provision for living the Christian life but we must appropriate it by faith. And that faith is more than just understanding or agreeing with a doctrine or teaching. The children of Israel owned the Promised Land before they entered it because it was given to them by God. But it did them no good until they went up by faith and took possession of it. They possessed it as their feet trod on it and they occupied it. Adrian Rogers has an excellent message on this very thing. This link may or may not work in the future. The message was broadcast Jan. 24, 2017. It is entitled Possessing Your Possessions

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/love-worth-finding/custom-player/learning-to-possess-your-possessions-571294.html

-Daniel

S
sermonindex

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13166&forum=34

I do not see anything in this sermon that differs from what I posted

J
jujashan4

Sree bro - you can read some of Tuc's testimony here:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=58722&forum=34
He's not saying don't "be" holy rather he is saying (by my understanding) that the way to holiness is through faith not through our own hard work :-) This agrees with scripture.

Greg - what was it in particular that was wrong in the initial article?

Every time Jesus said something He didn't go into detail to clarify what He "wasn't" saying

Sometimes maybe we are so over focused on what was not said that we're missing what was actually said?

This is what the Lord said:
Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Hallelujah !!!

The talk is of a righteousness that is by faith - not a faith without righteousness.

"The Saving Life of Christ" by Major Ian Thomas is another good book on this.

Love in the Lord.

B
BranchinVINE

I am not connected with Joseph Prince, Hillsong, Joel Osteen, etc.

When I open my Bible, I step into GRACE.....WONDERFUL GRACE! AMAZING GRACE!

I DO NOT reject God's amazing grace because of a fear of hyper grace.

The closing words of the Bible are:

"The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen." (Rev. 22:21)

Thank You, Lord Jesus, for Your precious grace!

EDIT TO ADD:

Just a thought:
If in running away from the prosperity gospel and hyper grace we run into a poverty gospel and meagre grace.....the enemy has a double victory.

B
BranchinVINE


2 PETER 1:5


New American Standard Bible:

Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,

Young's Literal Translation:

And this same also -- all diligence having brought in besides, superadd in your faith the worthiness, and in the worthiness the knowledge,

The Zondervan Greek and English Interlinear New Testament:

For this very reason, make every effort by your faith to produce virtue, and by virtue knowledge,

(Note: I had already posted this in a reply to Todd in another thread)


For interest.

S
sermonindex

Grace is not only the mercy of God but also the power to enable us to obey Him.

----

Standing Firm in the True Grace of God by Zac Poonen

"This is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it" (1 Pet.5:12). Here at the end of Peter's first letter, he says that what he has written in his letter is all about the true grace of God. In these days when false grace is being preached so much, it is good to go back to 1 Peter to see what the TRUE grace of God really is, and to stand firm in it. The fact that Peter uses the expression "the TRUE grace of God" in the first century itself indicates that even in those days a counterfeit grace was being proclaimed by the agents of Satan, who had "turned the grace of God into licentiousness (license to sin) (Jude 4). Right at the outset, Peter tells us that all believers are "chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that they may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood"and for such believers, he prays that God's "grace and peace may be theirs in fullest measure" (1 Pet.1:2).

God chose us in order to sanctify us (make us holy) and to lead us to obey the Lord Jesus Christ. This is what the true grace of God is meant to lead us into; and so Peter prays that those who desire this in their lives may experience God's grace in fullest measure. Peter then says that "as to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful search and inquiry" (1 Pet.1:10). The grace that we experience under the new covenant was not experienced by anyone in old covenant times. Even the prophets could only prophesy about this grace as something that would come in the future. They could not experience it themselves. Peter then urges all believers to "fix their hope completely on the grace that is to be brought to them at the revelation of Jesus Christ." (1 Pet.1:13). When Christ returns in glory, we will experience a special grace that will transform us totally into His likeness. From the beginning of our Christian life to the very end, God's work in us is entirely one of grace.

Peter also speaks of receiving grace for a happy married life: " You husbands likewise, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with a weaker vessel, since she is a woman; and grant her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered." (1 Pet.3:7). God wants Christian married couples to live together in peace and harmony. Their home must be an island of peace in a strife-torn world. And for this, abundant grace is required.

Peter then goes on to speak of spiritual gifts: "As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God." (1 Pet.4:10) Every spiritual gift is to be used only to SERVE others, as a means of dispensing the true grace of God to them. The grace of God is many-sided. Therefore God has chosen people from different backgrounds and with different personalities and temperaments and placed them all together in Christ's Body so that each of them can display some unique aspect of God's grace through his/her life and ministry.

"You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble." (1 Pet.5:5). Here Peter speaks about the importance of learning submission to spiritual authority in our younger days itself. If a young man is saved by the age of 20, it is usually God's purpose that he should have an effective ministry by the time he is 35 years old. But for this to be fulfilled, that man should learn the all- important lessons of brokenness and humility by the time he is 35. And those lessons can be learnt only as he submits to spiritual authority. Only thus can He receive grace to exercise spiritual authority later in his home and in the church. Young people who do not submit to spiritual authority invariably end up losing the ministry God had in mind for them. This does not mean that we don't have to humble ourselves once we are older!! Subjection to elders must be learnt when we are young. But following Jesus along the way of humility is something that we have to keep on doing until our dying day. That is the only way to keep on receiving grace until the very end of our lives.

T
TMK

Quote:
Tuc-

You keep saying that but I have no idea what you mean.

Tell us what you mean from a *practical* standpoint.

If someone were to say to you "ok tuc, I'm ready to do what you say. Please tell me exactly what I have to do step by step," what would you tell that person?

You can't just tell them to just rest in what Jesus has done because that is meaningless to them.
-------------------------------
I am still awaiting a meaningful response to this question.

P
proudpapa

RE : /// Greg - what was it in particular that was wrong in the initial article?///

Could you please answer this question ?

Remember, Anne Hutchinson was misconstrued and wrongfully understood on this type of a subject.

P
proudpapa

RE : /// From all my readings and study of contemporary christianity, it seems you are either quoting or re-packaging Joseph Prince and others like him who are preaching what some are terming: Hyper Grace.///

I recall this same accusation in a most nasty way, being accused of tuc a couple of years ago his response was the same as mine and Jade's.

I did not even relieze that Joseph and Derek prince where not the same person before that accusation, I new nothing of either one and still really do not.

This was the only place that I could find anything about the artical :
http://www.zerubbabel.org/the-intercessor/vol-32-no-2/

clarity

P
proudpapa

Tim wrote : 2015/2/20 16:31 "Tuc is dancing with Joseph Prince down a primrose path of deceit.

I wish someone would take each of Prince's books and write a page by page refutation. The man is evil. Tuc is a victim and many others are."

Tucs response :
\t
"I do NOT listen to Joseph Prince nor do I read his books.

I really do not know that much about him and I have never recommended him to anyone.

Not sure why you said that."

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=54151&forum=36&start=70

S
sermonindex

let me make this VERY CLEAR!

I do NOT listen to Joseph Prince nor do I read his books.

I really do not know that much about him and I have never recommended him to anyone.

I also do not teach or believe in this "Hyper Grace" teaching as some suggest.

I would say that David Wilkerson was had the greatest impact on my life. I weekly read his sermons from the past.

S
sermonindex

I think there can be a misunderstanding on faith.

The faith I am talking about Is NOT just mental assent. It is NOT just learning facts taught about knowing God.

Yes faith without woks is DEAD!!

When James says that faith without works is dead, he is saying that if believing the truth doesn't result in a change of behavior, it means that the mental assent type of faith is not real faith and is completely dead and can accomplish NOTHING. Even if you try harder, your faith will be just as dead.

Real faith is believing the truth in your heart just like God believes it.

When God's truth is believed in your heart - in other words, when it replaces the lie that opposes it - the corresponding works will no longer be an issue. They will flow out of you like a river without straining.

Edited for clarity

S
StirItUp

There are different " graces" as in graces which could be interpreted as gifts, such as the gifts (graces) of the Holy Spirit.
Being fellow heirs of the grace of life is really the same as the gift of eternal life.
Whatever graces or gifts we may have received, they are all fruits or branches or outflows of The Grace of God, Jesus Christ our Lord.

" for of His fulness have we received, and grace upon grace"

The grace of God is nothing else but the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and in Him, the undeserved favor and gift of Life that we have received.

" and this is Eternal Life, that they may know You,the only true God, and Jesus Christ Whom You have sent"

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you all!

T
TrueWitness

While it is sorta understandable to want a clean, crisp formula for how to walk in the spirit by faith, the problem with it is that it would then become "do it yourself-improvement” and remove the need for relying on the Lord. There are however, Biblical principles that must be understood and employed (our part of the walk). And as has been said previously in this thread, that principle is the principle of faith. Believing that we are indwelt by the Spirit of God into a new being created in righteousness and holiness is our new TRUE NATURE. We have flesh still which I choose to call the false self. It doesn’t exist in the spirit of man but is old conditioned thinking and behaving that has been built up over a lifetime and must be challenged and confronted by the empowered spirit man. One aspect of faith is the believing part which I just outlined here. The other part of faith is the boldness, tenacity and never give up attitude with which we challenge and confront anything and everything around us (flesh, world, circumstances, etc.) that would try to divert us from living the will of God for us or deny it’s truth. Heb. 11 is the hall of fame of the OT saints of faith. This aspect of uncompromising boldness and unwillingness to back down is displayed in all its glory. And sometimes your faith has to challenge your own desires and feelings and call it out as being of the old self. It must be put off and resisted. If you do not truly believe in your heart that your true self is united with Christ in His righteousness then all attempts at holy living will be just self trying to suppress and repress itself. Outwardly it may look fine but inside the soul is untouched.

-Daniel

J
jujashan4

Greg - Are you reading these posts?

P
proudpapa

The author of the artical seems to be an editor/affiliate of The Intercessor magazine and zerubbabel press a republisher of Norman Grubbs books.
I found nothing directly nor indirectly to that of Joseph Prince.

E
Elibeth

The kingdom of God:
The resurrected Lord in us,..
Meaning, that He doesn't lie dormant in us ,but is risen up,alive and working in us,of His will and His good pleasure....leading us in His righteousness.

He comes in by way of The Holy Spirit,...He, who is The King over this Heavenly Kingdom,..leading,..guideing us in The Way, of His Kingdom.

Through His 'Grace'..
*Grace: "The Devine infflence upon the heart,and it's reflection in the Life".

This same 'Grace',..(gift),..that we did not / do not deserve,that drawed us
at the very start,..beconning,drawing us to Him,..His kingdom will.
This 'Grace' stays with us for life / Life, if we do not continue to shun it.
(Grace, the Spirit of God, that draws, leads, guides)...is active alive.

Jesus says,'Follow me',.. Be ye followers of Jesus Christ,
So if we be followers of Jesus,what would that mean ?
He listened to His Fathers voice,..led by God' Spirit.
Having said that, then, we too,must be led by the Spirit, to be followers
of Jesus.....(this is not the Law written out,to read and try to DO,but it is
The Spirit,of which we are now been baptized into us.)


*For as many,as are led by The Spirit of God, they are,....they are,...
they are,...the children / sons of God.

*Faith:
Hearing,and obeying.
Example of this faith:
Abraham, heard the voice / drawing of God,..believed it was God,and
obeyed.

*Jesus'Faith:
He Heard His Father,God' Voice,drawings, and obeyed.

" Faith cometh by hearing,and hearing by The Word of God."


This is how The Lord has taught me,...it is not mine.
I am only passing it on,(sharing) I am not desiring to offend anyone.

God bless,
-----------------
elizabeth

T
twayneb

The writer of Hebrews makes a really interesting statement in 4:11. He says that we are to labor to enter into the rest of the Lord. Sounds a little contradictory on the surface unless we understand more about what it looks like to be in Christ.

While I cannot agree with all that he has said in the way it was stated, I must say that what Tuc posted has some real truth in it. There is a tendency, sometimes, to try to be more like Christ in our own efforts. We see something in our life that we realize to be unChristlike and then we set about in our own effort to try to change our external behavior. But our own effort has never been sufficient and we find ourselves failing over and over. It might look like this. "I tried living the Christian life. I tried giving up this or that besetting sin. But it seems the harder I tried, the more I failed. It just does not work for me. I am trying, but I keep failing." It is even possible to read our Bible and pray out of the motivation of our own fleshly effort.

I am learning more and more that it really is impossible for me, in my own flesh and own effort, to live a Christian life. I must allow Him to live through me as I die to myself. But there is a subtle trap here as well. I cannot die to myself purely in my own effort. Think about the religious orders that practice extreme self-denial in an effort to obtain from God what they desire. They fall short as well.

So what is the solution? I must realize that my salvation, my rebirth, is not simply about forgiveness of sins and passing from a future of Hell to a future in Heaven and being blessed here on Earth. That would be to make it about me, self-serving. My salvation is about reconciliation to the God who created me originally to be in His image. It is about my now being righteous in His sight, reconciled to Him, now having peace with God through Christ rather than enmity. I am no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in me. I am now dead to self but alive to God in Christ. I now have restored relationship and intimacy with the one who had promised to change me from glory to glory into His image. The goal of this transformation is that I now walk as His ambassador in this world, conformed to His image, a minister of reconciliation to the lost world. I now walk as a transformed and anointed part of the body of Christ, contributing to the body as a joint that supplies out of the anointing of the Holy Spirit that dwells in me and gives me life.

So now my heart's desire is intimacy with Him. I do not seek to be more like Him externally through my own efforts. I seek to KNOW Him more intimately and out of that knowledge flows the external change that others recognize as a Holy and Godly lifestyle. I seek to have the root of my tree planted deep within Him, knowing that from that root will flow the fruit of righteousness. I labor in His word, not to earn His favor, but to learn of Him, draw near to Him, and grow in intimate relationship with Him. I labor in prayer, not to earn His favor but to know Him intimately and to hear Him speak to me.

Tuc, I hope you were not saying that we should not labor in the word, labor in prayer, live a life of holy separation from the world, fellowship with believers, etc.. I hope what you meant to say was that we cannot do these things purely out of our own self-will and self-effort apart from a genuine rebirth and a life of intimacy with God who translated us from the kingdom of darkness to His eternal kingdom through His Son and expect that it will produce in us the genuine fruits of salvation.

My goal IS to be more Christlike. I want to be conformed to His image. But the way I go about reaching this goal is more important in this case, I believe, than the goal itself. When others see me, I hope they see Jesus. I want to be so much like Him. But the true means to that end is intimacy, not self-effort.


P
proudpapa

II. HOW CAN WE WALK AS JESUS WALKED ?

It is a very practical question, and the all-sufficient answer to it is in our text: "He that saith he abideth in Him, ought himself also to walk even as He walked." It is clear from this that there is only one way by which we can walk as He walked, and that is by abiding in Him. But what does that mean? Our Lord Himself has explained this in John 15:1-5. In these verses He tells us that He is the vine and we are the branches, and that if we would have fruitage and power in prayer, and joy, we must abide in Him, just as the branch that bears fruit must abide in the vine. That is to say, abiding in Him is maintaining the same relation to Him that a fruitful branch of a grapevine bears to the vine ; it has no life of its own, all its life is the inflow of the life of the vine, its buds and leaves and blossoms and fruit are not its own, but simply the outcome of the life of the vine flowing into it and bearing fruitage through it, so that if we are to abide in Him and bear fruit we must seek to have no life of our own, we must renounce all our self-efforts after righteousness, not simply renounce our sins, but renounce our own thoughts, our own ambitions, our own purposes, our own strength, our own everything, and cast ourselves in utter depend ence upon the Lord Jesus for Him to think His thoughts in us, to will His purpose in us, to choose His choice through us, to work out His own glorious perfection of character in us. Many try to be like Christ by imitating Christ. It is absolutely impossible for us to imitate Christ in our own strength. The most discouraging thing that any earnest-minded man can attempt is to imitate Christ. Nothing else will plunge a man in deeper despair than to try to imitate Christ in his own strength. Instead of imitating Him we should open our hearts wide for Him to come in and live His own life out through us. Christ in us is the secret of a Christian life. The only Christ that many professed Christians know is the historic Christ, that is the Christ who lived nineteen centuries ago on this earth and died on the cross of Calvary, an atoning sacrifice for sin. They only know the Christ who died for us on the cross. Oh, we need to know something further than that if we are to be like Him; we need to know a living Christ to-day, a Christ who not only arose and ascended to the right hand of the Father, but a Christ who has come down and "dwells in us, the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27). From the bottom of my heart I praise God for Christ for us on the cross. All my hope of acceptance before God is built upon Him bearing my sins in His own body on the cross, and I do praise God for Christ for us. But, oh, how I praise God, not only for Christ for me on the cross, but for Christ in me, a living, personal Christ in me to-day, living His life out through me, and causing me to walk even as Jesus walked. How we may thus have Christ in us Paul tells us in Gal. 2:20, A.R.V. He says, "I have been crucified with Christ," i.e., when Christ was crucified on the cross He was crucified as our representative and we were crucified in Him, and we must see ourselves where God put us on the cross in the place of death and the curse, and thus cease to live in our own strength. Then he goes on to say, "It is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me;" i.e., as he had been crucified with Christ he counted himself what he really was in his standing before God, dead, and as a dead man, no longer sought to live his own life, but let Jesus Christ live His life out through him. And then he goes on still further to say, "That life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." The whole secret of being like Christ is found in these words. We must count self dead; we must give up our self-efforts after likeness to Christ; we must distrust our own strength as much as we distrust our own weakness and our own sin, and instead of striving to live like Christ, let Christ live in us, as He longs to do. Of course we cannot thus have Christ in us until we know Christ for us, making a full atonement for our sins on the cross. Paul explains the whole secret of it in another way in Eph. 3 : 16-20. Here he prays for the believers in Ephesus that they "may be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man; that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith." The thought is, it is the work of the Holy Spirit to form an indwelling Christ within us, and the way to know Christ in us is to let the Holy Spirit form Him within us.

Are you walking as Jesus walked? Do you wish to walk as Jesus walked, cost whatever it may? Well then, realize that you have not been walking as Jesus walked, and that the reason you have not walked as Jesus walked is because you have been trying to do it yourself, and give up your own attempts to do it and just look up to the Risen Christ, through, whose death on the cross you have found pardon and justification, and let Him come and dwell in you and live His life out through you ; to have His perfect will in you, and just trust the Holy Spirit to form this indwelling Christ in your heart.

P
proudpapa

"..So, you see, holiness is not something we do, or attain, or work up. Rather, it is something we believe! God accepts us as holy only as we have faith in Christ and abide in him. The path to holiness is not through human ability, but through faith!

This is God's wonderful answer to the anxious cries of multitudes of Christians, who thirst for an understanding of how to be holy. We are holy only as we rest in Christ's holiness! Our holiness is his holiness - flowing to us, the branches, from the root.

Yet, at times, this biblical doctrine of holiness hasn't always been the practice of the church. Often holiness has been thought of only in terms of outward behavior.

My preacher grandfather is an example of this. He was a Nazarene minister in the early holiness movement, and he didn't allow Christians to wear feathers in their hats. He kept a little pair of gold scissors in his pocket - and whenever someone came to the altar and bowed her head, he would snip off any feathers!

Yet my grandfather chewed tobacco, because there was no "holiness prohibition" against it. He even kept a spittoon near him on the pulpit, so he could chew while he preached. He would turn his head and spit out the juice - all while preaching against women who wore lipstick!

I have heard holiness preachers rail for hours against women's makeup, certain types of dress, length of hair and other things, calling them matters of holiness. Yet these same men were the worst gossipers ever!

Beloved, God's message to us about holiness isn't about outward things. It is about faith - and he makes it very clear and simple! Yes, the Holy Spirit will deal with the outward man, teaching us to be adorned in simplicity and decency. But he does it through conviction - in his time and in his way."

S
sermonindex

proudpapa - Can you send me your email address to my email address that is listed in my profile?

I have a question for you.

P
proudpapa

I would but I don't email.

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