In Revelation 17 and 18 we read about Babylon. Some call this Babylon mystery Babylon (Rev. 17:7).
Down through the centuries many different interpretations have been offered about mystery Babylon. Wondering what the forum thinks.
This could have implications to us if we believe we are living in the end times.
Bro Blaine
And on her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE Earth. Revelation 17:5
Jeremiah 2:1,2 & 3:1-3
Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,"Go and proclaim in the ears of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord...God says, "If a husband divorces his wife
And she goes from him
And belongs to another man,
Will he still return to her?
Will not that land be completely polluted?
But you are a harlot with many lovers;
Yet you turn to Me,” declares the LORD.
"Lift up your eyes to the bare heights and see;
Where have you not been violated?
By the roads you have sat for them
Like an Arab in the desert,
And you have polluted a land
With your harlotry and with your wickedness.
"Therefore the showers have been withheld,
And there has been no spring rain.
Yet you had a harlot’s forehead;
You refused to be ashamed.
And their corpses shall lie in the streetes of the Great City, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where our Lord also was crucified. Revelation 11:8
Jerusalem, Jerusalem...
Interesting you asked, Blaine.
Someone told my husband recently he is convinced it is NYC so I decided to do a study to see what Revelation has to say about it.
I did gather from Rev. 18 that it is a financial center that dealt in all manner of goods, from the luxurious to the necessitates.
I am still not done with my research. I am doing a study in Revelation in a manner never done before - taking the components, sorting them like a puzzle and see how they all fit together. Interesting study, for sure.
Sandra
Luke 23:28-30 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Jerusalem, Jerusalem...
The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled. The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:16-18).
Jerusalem, Jerusalem...
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!
39 For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!"(Matt 23:37-39)
There will come a day when Jerusalem will see Christ again and in that day the remnant of Israel will say to their Messiah, "Blessed are you who comes in the name of the Lord." And their house will no longer be desolate. If Jerusalem is or becomes part of Mystery Babylon, God has long been in the business of turning the hearts and spirits of unfaitfhful harlotry back to Him!
3 And it will come about that he who is left in Zion and remiains in Jerusalem will be called holy - everyone who is recorded for life in Jerusalem.
4 - When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and of burning. (Isaiah 4:3-4)
1 For Zion’s sake I will not keep silent,
And for Jerusalem’s sake I will not keep quiet,
Until her righteousness goes forth like brightness,
And her salvation like a torch that is burning.
2 The nations will see your righteousness,
And all kings your glory;
And you will be called by a new name
Which the mouth of the Lord will designate.
3 You will also be a crown of beauty in the hand of the Lord, And a royal diadem in the hand of your God.
4 It will no longer be said to you, "Forsaken,”
Nor to your land will it any longer be said, "Desolate”;
But you will be called, "My delight is in her,”
And your land, "Married”;
For the Lord delights in you,
And to Him your land will be married.
5 For as a young man marries a virgin,
So your sons will marry you;
And as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride,
So your God will rejoice over you. (Isaiah 62:1-5)
Wake, harp of Zion, wake again,
Upon thine ancient hill,
On Jordan's long deserted plain,
By Kendron's lowly rill.
The hymn shall yet in Zion swell
That sounds Messiah's praise,
And Thy loved name, Immanuel!
As once in ancient days,
For Israel yet shall own her King,
For her salvation waits,
And hill and dale shall sweetly sing
With praise in all her gates
Hasten, O Lord, these promised days,
When Israel shall rejoice;
And Jew and Gentile join in praise,
With one united voice.
(James Edmeston, 1846)
Galatians 4:22-26
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born because of the promise.
These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
John 1:11-13
He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God”” children born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but born of God.
John 8:37-45
I know you are Abraham’s descendants, but you are trying to kill Me because My word has no place within you. I speak of what I have seen in the presence of the Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”
"Abraham is our father,” they replied.
"If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, "you would do the works of Abraham. But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. You are doing the works of your father.”
"We are not illegitimate children,” they answered. "Our only Father is God Himself.”
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me.
Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!
Galatians 3:26-29
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.
And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. Matthew 3:9
Israel to Be Renewed for His Name’s Sake
22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went.
23 I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,” declares the Lord God, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.
24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
29 Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness;...(Ezekiel 36:22-29a)
- Regathered from the nations
- Sprinkled with clean water - the word of God
- Cleansed from filthiness
- A new heart
- A new spirit
- A heart of flesh for a heart of stone
- God's Spirit placed within them
- Careful to obey God
How does one get cleansed from filthiness and receive a new heart and spirit and have God's Spirit placed within them and become careful to obey God unless they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His atoning work and are born again?
If the land they live on will be the earthly land given to thier forefathers, it will still require their being born (having God's Spirit placed within them) to be able to participate. I don't believe it refers to the land of the new heavenly Jerusalem but if it is that "land" then it will require being born again to participate. So if you are saying it is taught that one will be able to participate just because they are Jews and don't need to be born again, which I'm assuming is what your post implies, then you remain virtually clueless as to what you argue against. If that be so, I can recommend that you go back to the drawing board so to speak and do a little more detailed study. You give strong indications of not understanding properly that which you are perhaps criticizing.
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly,I say to you, unles one is born of water and the Spirit ("I will put My Spirit within you" - Ezek 36;27) He cannot enter the kingdom of God. (John 3:3-5)
I only meant to try and illumine that if Jerusalem becomes Mystery Babylon that the grace of the good Lord on hgigh still wins in the end. The unfaihtful spouse committed to the spirit and practice of harlotry will be born again and become the remnant forever married and faithful. TENDER GRACE AND FORGIVENESS AND LOVE TRIUMPHS!
Yet I digress from Brother Blaine's relevant question and therefore I yield back to him and his question.
Brother Bear,
It seems there are new interpretations popping up all the time.... From the Vatican to NYC- even America itself and so on... The one that makes the most sense to me is Mecca, it just seems to fit the best from my reading.
I had never heard Jerusalem tho until Savannah suggested it... and while it obviously will play a part (third temple) if you are interpreting literally, I can't get it to fit the whole of prophetic scripture on Babylon.
What are your thoughts brother?
Matthew 23:34-39
Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, that upon you may come ALL the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechari'ah the son of Barachi'ah , whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all this will come upon this generation. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"
Revelation 17:5, 6
On her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth's abominations." 6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her I marveled greatly.
Revelation 18:21,24
Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So shall Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and shall be found no more...And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of ALL who have been slain on earth."
Revelation 19:2
For his judgments are true and just; he has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he has avenged on her the blood of his servants."
Jerusalem,Jerusalem...!
Brother Bear,It seems there are new interpretations popping up all the time.... From the Vatican to NYC- even America itself and so on... The one that makes the most sense to me is Mecca, it just seems to fit the best from my reading.
I had never heard Jerusalem tho until Savannah suggested it... and while it obviously will play a part (third temple) if you are interpreting literally, I can't get it to fit the whole of prophetic scripture on Babylon.
What are your thoughts brother?
With all due respect brother, considering the proofs savanna has put forth, perhaps you might need to reassess your view on prophetic scripture. I think savanna has put forth scriptures that speak very plainly on the issue. Again I say that will all due respect to the knowledge and grace shown you but it seems to me that there is no arguing against the scriptures given and their correlation. I have learned from experience that often times when there is a strong proof but it doesn't fit our view then it is our view that needs correction. Just food for thought.
Who then do you say Mystery Babylon is?
We forget that Rome ruled over Israel for quite some time. And ultimately the Man of sin comes from elsewhere to be ruler over that area and it is he that is destroyed by the coming Messiah as Nebuchadnezzars dream portrays. Rome is guilty of killing the saints and even our savior. She has lots of harlot daughters out in the world. It is the Vatican that's pulling the strings on all the worlds wars. It's the Vatican whose ring the world leaders all kiss and bow before as well as many prominent TV preachers
We go into Hosea 1 and 2 and we see Hosea marry Gomer and has two children, one representing the House of Judah and the other the House of Israel. The House of Israel is the one referred to as "not my people". And as we read on in Hosea 3 we see the day comes when they will be reconciled. Jesus came to bring reconciliation. He sent 70 out to the House Of Israel as we read in Matthew.
In Hosea 2: 4 we see where the ones sent are to plead with them. Tell them mercy has come.
Ezekiel writes about the dry bones saying they will all live, but mystery Babylon will be destroyed
We go into Hosea 1 and 2 and we see Hosea marry Gomer and has two children, one representing the House of Judah and the other the House of Israel. The House of Israel is the one referred to as "not my people". And as we read on in Hosea 3 we see the day comes when they will be reconciled. Jesus came to bring reconciliation. He sent 70 out to the House Of Israel as we read in Matthew.In Hosea 2: 4 we see where the ones sent are to plead with them. Tell them mercy has come.
Ezekiel writes about the dry bones saying they will all live, but mystery Babylon will be destroyed
Then does that not confirm that Jerusalem is the mystery Babylon? When Israel is turned to Christ then that which is of the flesh (see Pauls allegory in Galatians and even the allegory in Hosea that you quoted) will be abolished and mystery Babylon (that which enslaves) will be destroyed. Before the fall of mystery Babylon a voice calls out those who belong to Christ and whose hearts are willing, for we are saved by faith and not by natural descent.
Yes I see the points being made for Jerusalem being MB and they are well taken:)
However, like all the interpretations, there are holes and none (for me) stand out as undeniable. Having said this each candidate has with it a strong argument for its being MB tho I've found in each case that there are some omissions and subsequent leaps.
I can't say definitively that Jerusalem isn't MB anymore than I can Rome, what I am saying (and forgive me for not being more clear) is that Jerusalem seems less likely a candidate based on scriptures. So in order for Jerusalem to be MB, certain passages would have to either be omitted or perhaps considered irrelevant- i.e.: Rev 18:21, Ezekiel 7, Zechariah 12 & 14 etc...
again not trying to be contentious just answering why I can't sign off on it just yet-
I have found that most of the "theories" are attached to belief systems, like dispensationalism-replacement theology, preterism, etc... and that's understandable but (for me) unfortunate.
Might it possibly be that its called ***Mystery** Babylon for a reason?
Perhaps it's not time for us to understand.
Rev. 17:1-5
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.” And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Vs 6,7 & 18
When I saw her, I wondered greatly. And the angel said to me, "Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman..."The woman whom you saw is the Great City, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”
Revelation 14:8
And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that Great City, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the Great City which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Compare -
Isaiah 1:21 \t
How the faithful city
has become a harlot ,
she who was full of justice!
Righteousness lodged in her,
but now murderers.
Isaiah 1:10
Hear the word of the Lord, You rulers of Sodom; Give ear to the instruction of our God, You people of Gomorrah.
Jeremiah 3:14
"Also among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen a horrible thing: The committing of adultery and walking in falsehood; And they strengthen the hands of evildoers, So that no one has turned back from his wickedness. All of them have become to Me like Sodom...
Ezekiel 16:1-3,15,22, 26,28,29, 34,35
Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations and say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD to Jerusalem,... you trusted in your beauty and played the harlot because of your fame, and you poured out your harlotries...besides all your abominations and harlotries... you also played the harlot with the Egyptians, your lustful neighbors...moreover, you played the harlot with the Assyrians because you were not satisfied; you played the harlot with them and still were not satisfied. "You also multiplied your harlotry with the land of merchants, Chaldea.."Thus you are different from those women in your harlotries, in that no one plays the harlot as you do, because you give money and no money is given you...Therefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD.
Ezekiel 23:1-8, 30-32,36,37
The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, "Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother; and they played the harlot in Egypt. They played the harlot in their youth; there their breasts were pressed and there their virgin bosom was handled. "Their names were Oholah the elder and Oholibah her sister. And they became Mine, and they bore sons and daughters. And as for their names, Samaria is Oholah and Jerusalem is Oholibah.
"Oholah played the harlot while she was Mine; and she lusted after her lovers, after the Assyrians, her neighbors, who were clothed in purple, governors and officials, all of them desirable young men, horsemen riding on horses. "She bestowed her harlotries on them, all of whom were the choicest men of Assyria; and with all whom she lusted after, with all their idols she defiled herself. "She did not forsake her harlotries from the time in Egypt; for in her youth men had lain with her, and they handled her virgin bosom and poured out their lust on her....‘These things will be done to you because you have played the harlot with the nations, because you have defiled yourself with their idols. ‘You have walked in the way of your sister; therefore I will give her cup into your hand.’
"Thus says the Lord GOD,
‘You will drink your sister’s cup,... Moreover, the LORD said to me, "Son of man, will you judge Oholah and Oholibah? Then declare to them their abominations. "For they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands.
Thus they have committed adultery with their idols...
Jerusalem, Jerusalem...!
Brethren I do not hold to the view that mystery Babylon is Jerusalem. Nor do I hold to the view that mystery Babylon is the Roman Catholic Church.
Also I wish to say for the record that I reject preterism in any form. I do not believe all prophetic events were fulfilled in 70 AD. I take the position as held by most evangelicals that Revelation was written in 90 AD by the Apostle John. I take the position of most evangelicals that Revelation has a future fulfillment.
Lord willing, I'm still fleshing out the passages in question. I hope to share my thoughts in a few days.
Bro Blaine
Bear-
I don't think you are reading the posts very carefully. You have to connect the dots:
The text plainly says that Mystery Babylon = The Great City.
The text also says that The Great City = where the Lord was crucified.
The city where Jesus was crucified = Jerusalem.
Therefore, Jerusalem = Mystery Babylon.
Quoting,
We are not saying that the harlot is strictly synonymous with Jerusalem. On the contrary, it is very clear that the harlot represents something much more expansive in power and influence (Rev 17:15). Still, Jerusalem is nonetheless contemplated as ‘that great city,’ which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt. How can this be? In her apostasy, the ‘faithful city” is described as belonging in spirit and practice to the "city of confusion,” the symbol of world rebellion. The contradiction of the faithful city’s conformity to the spirit and practices of the surrounding nations was a constant lament of the prophets.
This is why I believe in what might be called a "two-fold” destruction of Babylon. The first stage of destruction is inflicted upon Jerusalem (and possibly her western allies) by the ten nation alliance under Antichrist at the start of the tribulation. This comes suddenly and without warning on the boastful leaders of Jerusalem who have arrogantly dismissed the prophetic warning of imminent disaster (Isa 28:14-15; 1Thes 5:3). The second stage is the great day of God Almighty when greater world-wide Babylon is destroyed with finality.
The ten kings are the divinely appointed instruments of God to inflict the first stage of judgement on the whore (Rev 17:17), but notice; they are not exempt from the second stage of divine wrath that comes upon greater world Babylon at the very end of the tribulation (Rev 16:10, 19). Therefore, in keeping with the prophets, Revelation seems to depict a mysterious intersection between mystery Babylon and Jerusalem in her apostasy.
Because of her high and privileged calling to represent the kingdom of God on earth, Jerusalem’s shame is so much the greater for adopting the character of the world. Thus, there is nothing that could be remotely construed as antisemitic about our view. It is the view of the prophets who continually pressed God’s warning that the elect nation would never be permitted to imitate the surrounding nations (Amos 3:2). It is language specific to the high calling of covenant election and privilege in full view of their exalted millennial destiny to be God’s servant to the nations.
I cannot, of course, prove it from scripture, but a great deal of scriptural evidence leads me to personally expect that at the same time the Antichrist invades Jerusalem, the west may also come under nuclear attack.
It is most interesting how Savannah is able to make his point with only quoting Scripture.
The Great City is always the same. Possession changes at the end. The Jews are driven into the fields.
"The great city has become....". The two witnesses are not
necessarily witnessing to the Jews but to those of the spirit of Esau who have set their kingdom on MT Zion as we see in Obadiah 16. Isn't it the one who calls him self god who has the 2 witnesses killed? Aren't we seeing the dividing of the land in the works?
I understand Savannah's viewpoint, but sometimes there's always more than meets the eye.
It's 2:00 am and tossing in the bed had to write...
This is what I see.
When Jesus came the first time. Rome had already taken Jerusalem. Jesus and John Baptist were the two witnesses. This was a type of what's coming.
As we near the end The great city,Jerusalem will be overran and taken by Rome just as before. A fake Kingdom of God and millenium will be set up. There will be someone in the temple of God. It has already been said that Jerusalem is going to be an International city. It will be the great city where all nations will flow to hear the word. Peace will be proclaimed. They will rule with a rod of iron. Either follow our man in the temple or face our military machine. It will become as Sodom and Gomorah as everything will be taking place in the city. Jesus said when you hear that he has returned to stay hid.
Remember, the fake or substitute comes before the real thing.
The antichrist means substiture for Christ or an idol. To worship him is to worship an idol.
Distribution of wealth wil take place from Jerusalem.
The great city will become....
It is to this evil place that the two witnesses come. This time they will do creation type wonders. Their eyes will pop and Hands will go over their mouths.
The two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. They were the two standing by Jesus in the transfiguration and are the two olive trees standing by him. They are the two olive doors into the holy of holies. This was slipped into Matthew for us to see. There was no other reason to have Moses and Elijah in that transfiguration. It was a vision of glory.
"The two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. They were the two standing by Jesus in the transfiguration and are the two olive trees standing by him. They are the two olive doors into the holy of holies. This was slipped into Matthew for us to see. There was no other reason to have Moses and Elijah in that transfiguration. It was a vision of glory."
As I see it, Moses and Elijah were on the Mount of Transfiguration as a symbol of the law and the prophets. They may be the two witnesses; however, "It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27. Although Enoch was translated, Moses has physically died. The two witnesses will die and be resurrected. Would this not be a contradiction of scripture, for Moses to die twice?
Jude 9 is interesting though...
I'll have to look it up, but I believe that is a mistranslation and actually should be referring to Jesus.
The Jewish lad who recently died and came back had a vivid account of things at the end. He said 2 dead men would come forth as two witnesses. But discounting that, John the Baptist was in the spirit of Elijah. Perhaps the two witnesses will be in the same spirit as Elijah and Moses. Enoch saw death since death is appointed, he was translated from there.
In Deut 7:2 as Moses and the children of Israel were preparing to go in the land, Moses knew he wasn't, yet we keep reading and see words to Moses: "When you go into the land do not make a league with any of the other tribes.."
There are some things Moses has not fulfilled.
I'm open for discussion, I don't have all the answers. I like to stir up thoughts as it helps all of us.
I believe that mystery Babylon and the revived Roman empire is America...........bro Frank
I believe that Paul the apostle's thorn in the flesh was his ex and the fruit eve ate was a pineapple!
I believe that Paul the apostle's thorn in the flesh was his ex and the fruit eve ate was a pineapple!
I would like to second this!
Why Mystery Babylon is NOT America -
It's hard to see the Jerusalem of 70 AD being all of this portrayed in Revelation. Maybe partly but hardly fully. It seems to be increasingly almost outright scriptural denial to propose the notion as many do that modern Israel and Jerusalem are persona non grata in the events to transpire at the end of the age. Where were the two witnesses in 70 AD? When Mystery Babylon is destroyed the AC is destroyed, Christ comes again and the dead are raised. When has that happened?
"Why Mystery Babylon is NOT America -"
http://www.joelstrumpet.com/?p=7742
Would not want to contradict Joel's best selling book, no bias there :) ............bro Frank
There is Mystery Babylon, Daughter of Babylon, and Babylon.
What I wrote earlier about Jesus and John Baptist being the two winesses to Jerusalem before her judgment..
Rome was in possesion, Pilate was in charge.
The two witnesses were killed. Jesus rose. And we see where graves opened and saints came back into town. A resurrection.
This first event was similar to the last event. Rome comes back in possesion, 2 witnesses, their death and resurrection and a resurrection of the saints.
I think that the destruction of the temple in 70 Ad was coming anyway. Imagine what it would be like if it had remained.
When reading about Babylons destruction you read:
"Arab not pitch his tent there again.." , All the nations have drunk of her wine: the oil. All got rich: the oil. I see where Persia destroys Babylon.
It is Psalm 137:8 "Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us." Babylon is not Israel
Why Mystery Babylon is NOT America -"
http://www.joelstrumpet.com/?p=7742
Would not want to contradict Joel's best selling book, no bias there :) ............bro Frank
_____________________
Do have to admit bro he does make a good case. Not necessary saying I agree with it. But it it is good case.
Bro Blaine
Joel Richardson does make a pretty convincing case that Islam is the mystery Babylon. Have enclosed a link to an hour long message he gave a year ago called the Islamic End Time Paradigm.
At this point I'm inclined to say that this brother makes more sense than many prophecy teachers that I have heard thus far.
"...Islam is the mystery Babylon."
NO,Islam is not! Islam cannot be! Not according to the Bible!
Rev. 17:6,7,18
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
And the angel said to me, Why didst thou wonder? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman...
And the woman whom thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Rev. 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS, AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Mystery Babylon is the woman who has the name on her forehead, and that woman is that great city, as verse 18 above states.
Mystery Babylon is not any one specific country or place. It personifies the spirit that controls this world's system, comprising of a comercial political and religious system who's ultimate master is Satan....see Isaiah14.
It is true that certain nations and groups can at various times be identified as 'Babylon' in nature due to their wickedness. So Rome, Nazi Germany, Islam, etc can all be identified as that at their various times. Even Jerusalem in its spiritual harlotry could be identified in the past as operating under that spirit.
However I do not see that the Revelation pasages speak of Israel or Jerusalem. It is false logic to say that because 'both Jerusalem and mystery Babylon identified as a great city then Jerusalem must be Babylon. Following that logic if NY is a great City and London is a great city, then London is NY! There is no way that Jerusalem in the first century or in present times could remotely be said to be in control of the nations of this world as it describes in Revelation. In John's Day it would have clearly been Rome......., but today it could be a number of potential suspects.
I have been doing a serious study of Revelation, making lists of important symbols and their definitions as provided by the text. Personally, I am getting a clearer picture of what John saw but the question of who is "Mystery Babylon" still baffles me. I used to understand it as being Jerusalem for reasons cited by other posters. But then I read chapter 18 and I am not so sure.
Mystery Babylon is described as:
1.The great harlot. 17:1,5
2. She sits on many waters - peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. 17:1,15
3.Clothed in garments signifying great wealth. 17:4
4.Is carried by a scarlet beast. 17:3. (This beast is empowered by the dragon - 12:9)5
5.The beast is is the one who has seven heads and ten horns all symbolic of kingdoms that came and went and are to come.
6. These kings will make war with the 'woman' destroying her. 17:16.
7. Drunk with the blood of the saints.
Mystery Babylon's Function
1.Dwelling place of demons, prison of every unclean spirit and unclean and hurtful birds
2.All the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality.
3.Kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her.
4.Self sufficient.
5.Trading center of gold, silver, precious stones, fine fabrics, fine woods, ivory, bronze, iron and marble, spices, incense, perfume, wine, oil, livestock, vehicles, human lives. Have enriched many.
6.Persecuted the saints - drunk with their blood.
Some say Mystery Babylon could be Mecca because it is surrounded by mountains vs Rome who sits on hills. In any case, I did check out Mecca on the web and what I found was a description that mirrors Revelation 18 in many ways insofar as wealth and its role in worldwide commerce.
Still....questions remain but am getting a clearer picture of what John saw but to identify these entities I am not sure. In any case it is among the most challenging book study I have ever done. (It is fun, btw - extremely interesting.)
Sandra
Sandra,
You listed 13 reasons why Jerusalem IS Mystery Babylon!
It fits just as the slipper did when placed on Cinderella by the Prince.
Thanks for sharing your study notes.
BTW - The Jerusalem of the 1st century, of which Jesus spoke of being destroyed, is the Mystery Babylon Jerusalem, not the present day 21st century Jerusalem.
What year do you think the Book of Revelation was written in?
Bro Blaine
Sometime during the reign of Nero, pre-70AD.
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Mainline evangelical commentators on the Book of Revelation do not hold to the 70 AD date. But then mainline evangelical commentators don't hold to praeterism.
So in your mind Jesus has already returned and we are now in the Kingdom. Is that correct?
Bro Blaine
In the past, I was so interested to know the details of the book of Revelation. Book of Revelation is full of symbolic things, but instead of being occupied with this details, I just instead focus now on fervent devotion to Jesus Christ, and live holy every day of my life, it is what important in the end than steaming our mind with details of the last book of the New Testament.
I am not ashamed to add my name to this list of men who believed that the book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ was written prior to 70AD.
Adam Clarke
Philip Schaff
Jamieson, Fausset and Brown
Hugo Grotius
F.F. Bruce
Leon Morris
Augustus H. Strong
EUSEBIUS
ARETHAS
David Chilton
John A. T. Robinson
Albert Schweitzer
Sir Isaac Newton
Moses Stuart
Milton S. Terry
Clement of Alexandria
Steve Gregg
Greg Bahnsen
Hank Hanegraaff
Foy E. Wallace, Jr.
J. Stuart Russell
Brooke Foss Westcott
F. J. A. Hort
Frederic W. Farrar
Jay E. Adams
Ovid Need Jr.
Robert Young
W. Bauer
J. J. Wetstein
W.F. Arndt
F.W. Gingrich
Ulrich R. Beeson
John Lightfoot
Joseph B. Lightfoot
Henry Cowles
W. Gary Crampton
Gary DeMar
Kenneth L. Gentry
Francis Nigel Lee
Peter J. Leithart
C. F. D. Moule
Cornelis Vanderwaal
James M. Macdonald
Robert L. Pierce
Albert A. Bell, Jr.
James Glasgow
J. W. Roberts
Charles Bigg
R.W. Dale
Samuel Davidson
Rudolf Bultmann
William Newton Clarke
Berry Stewart Crebs
George Edmundson
Samuel G. Green
Bernard W. Henderson
David Hill
J.W. Marshall
Bernhard Weiss
.
WHEN WAS THE BOOK OF REVELATION WRITTEN?
BY WAYNE JACKSOm
Traditionally, the book of Revelation has been dated near the end of the first century, around A.D. 96. Some writers, however, have advanced the preterist (from a Latin word meaning "that which is past”) view, contending that the Apocalypse was penned around A.D. 68 or 69, and thus the thrust of the book is supposed to relate to the impending destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70).
A few prominent names have been associated with this position (e.g., Stuart, Schaff, Lightfoot, Foy E. Wallace Jr.), and for a brief time it was popular with certain scholars. James Orr has observed, however, that recent criticism has reverted to the traditional date of near A.D. 96 (1939, 2584). In fact, the evidence for the later date is extremely strong.
In view of some of the bizarre theories that have surfaced in recent times (e.g., the notion that all end-time prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), which are dependent upon the preterist interpretation, we offer the following.
External Evidence
The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.
Irenaeus
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision "was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.
Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos "after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the "Father of Church History,” identifies the "tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).
Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the "tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an "old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.
Victorinus
Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:
When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).
Jerome
Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,
In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9).
To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18). McClintock and Strong, in contending for the later date, declare that "there is no mention in any writer of the first three centuries of any other time or place” (1969, 1064). Upon the basis of external evidence, therefore, there is little contest between the earlier and later dates.
Internal Evidence
The contents of the book of Revelation also suggest a late date, as the following observations indicate.
The spiritual conditions of the churches described in Revelation chapters two and three more readily harmonize with the late date.
The church in Ephesus, for instance, was not founded by Paul until the latter part of Claudius’s reign: and when he wrote to them from Rome, A.D. 61, instead of reproving them for any want of love, he commends their love and faith (Eph. 1:15) (Horne 1841, 382).
Yet, when Revelation was written, in spite of the fact that the Ephesians had been patient (2:2), they had also left their first love (v. 4), and this would seem to require a greater length of time than seven or eight years, as suggested by the early date.
Another internal evidence of a late date is that this book was penned while John was banished to Patmos (1:9). It is well known that Domitian had a fondness for this type of persecution. If, however, this persecution is dated in the time of Nero, how does one account for the fact that Peter and Paul are murdered, yet John is only exiled to an island? (Eusebius III.18; II.25).
Then consider this fact. The church at Laodicea is represented as existing under conditions of great wealth. She was rich and had need of nothing (3:17). In A.D. 60, though, Laodicea had been almost entirely destroyed by an earthquake. Surely it would have required more than eight or nine years for that city to have risen again to the state of affluence described in Revelation.
The doctrinal departures described in Revelation would appear to better fit the later dating. For example, the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15) were a full-fledged sect at the time of John’s writing, whereas they had only been hinted at in general terms in 2 Peter and Jude, which were written possibly around A.D. 65-66.
Persecution for professing the Christian faith is evidenced in those early letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor. For instance, Antipas had been killed in Pergamum (2:13). It is generally agreed among scholars, however, that Nero’s persecution was mostly confined to Rome; further, it was not for religious reasons (Harrison 1964, 446).
Arguments for the Early Date Answered
In the absence of external evidence in support of an early date for Revelation, preterists generally rely on what they perceive as internal support for their view.
Writing Style Differences
It is contended that the Gospel of John has a much smoother style of Greek than does the Apocalypse. Thus, the latter must have been written many years prior to the fourth Gospel””when the apostle was not so experienced in the literary employment of Greek.
In answer to this argument, we cite R. H. Gundry:
Archaeological discoveries and literary studies have recently demonstrated that along with Aramaic and Hebrew, Greek was commonly spoken among first century Palestinians. Thus John must have known and used Greek since his youth (1970, 365).
B. B. Warfield contends that:
the Apocalypse betrays no lack of knowledge of, or command over, Greek syntax or vocabulary; the difference lies, rather, in the manner in which a language well in hand is used, in style, properly so called; and the solution of it must turn on psychological, not chronological, considerations (Schaff and Herzog 1891, 2036).
R. H. Charles, author of the commentary on Revelation in the International Critical Commentary series, and perhaps the greatest expert on apocalyptic literature, regarded the so-called bad grammar as deliberate, for purposes of emphasis, and consistent with the citation of numerous Old Testament passages (Gundry, 365). It might be noted that in the 404 verses of Revelation, Westcott and Hort’s Greek New Testament gives over five hundred references and allusions to the Old Testament.
Finally, as McClintock and Strong point out:
It may be admitted that the Revelation has many surprising grammatical peculiarities. But much of this is accounted for by the fact that it was probably written down, as it was seen, "in the Spirit,” while the ideas, in all their novelty and vastness, filled the apostle’s mind, and rendered him less capable of attending to forms of speech. His Gospel and Epistles, on the other hand, were composed equally under divine influence, but an influence of a gentler, more ordinary kind, with much care, after long deliberation, after frequent recollection and recital of the facts, and deep pondering of the doctrinal truths which they involve (1064).
No Mention of Jerusalem’s Destruction
It is claimed that Revelation must have been penned before A.D. 70 since it has no allusion to the destruction of Jerusalem; rather, it is alleged, it represents both the city and the temple as still standing.
In response we note the following points.
First, if John wrote this work near A.D. 96, there would be little need to focus upon the destruction of Jerusalem since the lessons of that catastrophe would have been well learned in the preceding quarter of a century.
However, it must be noted that some scholars see a veiled reference to Jerusalem’s destruction in 11:8, where "the great city,” in which the Savior was crucified (Jerusalem), is called Sodom””not merely because of wickedness, but due to the fact that it was a destroyed city of evil (Zahn 1973, 306).
Second, the contention that the literal city and temple were still standing, based upon chapter eleven, ignores the express symbolic nature of the narrative. Salmon says that it is:
difficult to understand how anyone could have imagined that the vision represents the temple as still standing. For the whole scene is laid in heaven, and the temple that is measured is the heavenly temple (11:19; 15:5). We have only to compare this vision with the parallel vision of a measuring-reed seen by Ezekiel (ch. 40), in which the prophet is commanded to measure””surely not the city which it is stated had been demolished fourteen years previously, but the city of the future seen by the prophet in vision (1904, 238).
Nero Associated with 666
Some argue for an early date of the Apocalypse by asserting that the enigmatic 666 (13:18) is a reference to Nero. This is possible only by pursuing the most irresponsible form of exegesis.
To come up with such an interpretation one must:
add the title "Caesar” to Nero’s name;
compute the letter-number arrangement on the basis of Hebrew, whereas the book was written in Greek; and
alter the spelling of "Caesar” by dropping the yodh in the Hebrew.
All of this reveals a truly desperate attempt to find a reference to Nero in the text.
Additionally, Leon Morris has pointed out that Irenaeus discussed a number of possibilities for deciphering the 666, but he did not even include Nero in his list, let alone regard this as a likely conjecture (1980, 38). Noted critic Theodor Zahn observed that Nero was not even suggested as a possibility until the year 1831 (447).
In view of the foregoing evidence, a very strong case can be made for dating Revelation at about A.D. 96. Accordingly, the theory of realized eschatology, which is grounded upon the necessity of the Apocalypse having been written prior to A.D. 70, is shown to be without the necessary foundation for its successful defense, to say nothing of the scores of other scriptural difficulties that plague it.
_____________________________
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Then brother if you believe that Revelation was written prior to or by 70 AD.
Then do you believe everything described in Revelation has been already been fulfilled?
Do you believe that the seals have been opened?
Do you believe that the trumpets have been blown?
Do you believe that the bowls of Wrath have been poured out?
Do you believe that Christ has already returned in His second Advent?
Do you believe that we are now ruling and raining in the millennium?
Do you believe that the New Jerusalem has already come down?
I would be curious to know your answers to these questions. Or anyone else who holds to your view in this forum to answer these questions.
Bro Blaine
/In the past, I was so interested to know the details of the book of Revelation. Book of Revelation is full of symbolic things, but instead of being occupied with this details, I just instead focus now on fervent devotion to Jesus Christ, and live holy every day of my life, it is what important in the end than steaming our mind with details of the last book of the New Testament./
Maybe it can be said that the book of Revelation is full of symbolic things that also represent true concrete realities. Things past and things to come. What if becoming familar with the details of the book of Revelation led to a increasing desire for holiness and preparation for a returning King and Savior? Why has God given such a magnificent testament like He has in the book of Revelation only to have its details categorized as bascially unimportant? No other books or part of the word of God is treated in such a manner. We fitfully try to steam our mind with the word of God in all its parts yet to many eschatology is laid aside as just unimportant details. I always remain a bit baffled when one part of the word of God, the eschatological emphasis, is reduced to unimportance. By any logic, the last book of the New Testament should remain monumentally important.
The Centrality and Significance of Jerusalem
Because of her high and privileged calling to represent the kingdom of God on earth, Jerusalem’s shame is so much the greater for adopting the character of the world. Thus, there is nothing that could be remotely construed as antisemitic about our view. It is the view of the prophets who continually pressed God’s warning that the elect nation would never be permitted to imitate the surrounding nations (Amos 3:2).
Nonetheless,
In things pertaining to the kingdom of God on earth, all roads lead to Jerusalem. "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee” (Ps. 122:6; the Old Testament equivalent of "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth”).
I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the Lord, keep not silence, And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth (Isa. 62:7).
But before Jerusalem is made ’a praise’ in the earth, she is first made ’a cup of trembling to all people.’
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it (Zech 12: 3).
Jerusalem will be the epi-center of the coming storm. The menacing and insoluble dilemma of Jerusalem will increasingly become the ’hot potato’ of international politics, the proverbial ‘fly in the ointment’ that threatens world stability. Jewish intransigence over Jerusalem is perhaps the most probable source for the prophetically anticipated resurgence of world wide anti-Semitism. Indeed, it is the intractable problem of Jerusalem in particular that is calculated of God to irresistibly draw all nations into the final conflict that leads to Armageddon and the Day of the Lord.
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to (1) finish the transgression, and (2) to make an end of sins, and (3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and (4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and (5) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and (6) to anoint the most Holy (Dan. 9: 24).
The controversy of Zion is the last day’s extension of the age-old contention that has raged in the heavens and on earth concerning "the holy covenant.” Jerusalem represents the place of God’s name, the locus of the divine rule over the earth. This is why "the nations rage, and the people imagine a vain thing.” At issue will be the final outworking of the quarrel that began in the tents of Abraham, and that must continue to divide the descendants of Abraham and Isaac until these ancient brothers will be gloriously reunited with the coming of the messianic peace, so graphically portrayed in Isaiah 19:18-25. It is the issue of the covenant that leads unavoidably to the question of God’s election and sovereign rule, His divine right to choose as he will choose. And this most troublesome of questions presents itself forcibly over the issue of Jerusalem and ’the land.’
Because God’s choice and declaration is the issue of His authority and rule, it necessarily constitutes a divine ’rub’ calculated to offend humanistic reason ("the natural man”), and to evoke the rage of the powers. This is especially because the wisdom of God expressed in the ’rule of grace’ so utterly opposes any notion that the right of promise and inheritance is in any way predicated on human qualification, virtue, or merit (viz., the relativistic ethics of humanistic morality).
Through the divine strategy of a hidden wisdom revealed first in the cross of Christ, and now again reiterated at the end of the age through a people who "love not their lives unto the death,”
Satan is finally cast down; and the proud and rebellious rulers of this world’s darkness are finally defeated and stripped from their thrones so that "now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night” (Rev. 12:10). And "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ (Rev. 11:15).
’The controversy of Zion’ is calculated to press upon the nations the great questions of God, His predestined purpose, and the sovereignty and authority of His rule. It intends to thrust upon world attention the right of divine claim, and the implications of the everlasting covenant that the nations have historically ignored, trespassed, and presumptuously defied (Isa 24:5). Indeed, all nations will be forced to grapple with the great issues that the crisis of Jerusalem is divinely intended to elicit.
Because Jerusalem signifies the issue of the rule of God, it becomes the focal point for the ultimate and fateful confrontation between God and the fallen powers of the air. Their manipulative sway over governments, institutions, and men will be identified and broken through the judgments that come on all nations because of what this city represents in the eternal purpose of God to establish His theocratic rule over the nations out of Jerusalem (Ps. 2; Micah 4:1-8). Therefore, the ultimate displacement of the principalities and powers is bound up with those points of divine contention that are provoked and exposed through the controversy of Zion.
That this one mountain (Zion), and this one city should be granted by divine decree to a particular ethnic people, and on no other basis than the free sovereign electing grace of God, is calculated, as nothing else, to draw out the ultimate offense to humanistic sensibility and reason; it is consummate scandal. But it also spells the ultimate threat to the illicit rule of the fallen usurping powers that oppose and war against God’s intention to rule all nations from this city. Significantly, Satan’s very title ’the accuser’ (meaning one who opposes) derives from a statement in Zech 3 in relation to the sovereignty of God’s election of Jerusalem. In keeping with the prophets who frequently identify Jerusalem with Sodom and Babylon, the once faithful woman now become a harlot, Jesus refers to Jerusalem’s symbolic centrality as also the very seat of apostasy and rebellion: "Nevertheless I must walk today, and tomorrow, and the day following: "for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem” (Lk. 13:33; cf. also Rev. 18:24 with Rev. 17:16-18). It is therefore fitting that the Beast kills the two prophets of Rev. 11 in Jerusalem. Significantly, the Anti-Christ, in keeping with Satan’s usurping aspirations, "shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain?” (Dan.11:45). Isa.14:13 suggests that aback of the Anti-Christ’s aspiration to seize Jerusalem for his capital is Satan’s original envy of Messiah’s appointment to rule from the chosen city. "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north (a definite reference to Jerusalem: "Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King” Ps. 48:2).
Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
The impulse to contend against God’s choice raises deeper questions concerning how persons understand the basis of their own standing and relationship before God. It is a critical first principle of personal salvation to recognize that grace is wholly ’apart’ from works, that the gift of God is unprejudiced by any human qualification or virtue. And though God’s choice anticipates the necessity of a new heart, (whether individual or nation, "ye ’must’ be born again”), this, however, is never its basis (Ro.9:11). It is based in the eternal predetermination of God through the everlasting covenant that guarantees the imputation of another kind of righteousness that is very God’s alone, and by the instrumentality of faith alone ’imputed’ in order to exclude any natural claim or merit.
Jacob becomes Israel by the power of God at the appointed time ("and when he shall have accomplished to ’scatter the power’ of the holy people, all these things shall be finished” Dan. 12:10). For the estranged and apostate nation it will mean the "bringing in of everlasting righteousness” (Dan. 9:24). But just as in personal salvation, the righteousness that will come to Jacob ’in that day’ is the same free gift of God, based on an eternal purpose in grace that has its working completely ’apart’ from human working or willing. And Israel will constitute the national and visible demonstration that salvation is ’wholly’ of the Lord, conferred on the basis of grace alone, through faith alone, by Christ alone, and this grace is on the basis of election. Why election? Paul answers: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth” (Rom. 9:11). The promise is according to election, because only the sovereign act of God’s choosing fully defines the nature of grace, and the basis on which it is given, or not given ("whom He will” Jn. 5:21; Rom. 9:18).
Therefore, Ishmael’s perpetual contempt for the child of promise touches the issue of the very basis of promise, and of the very nature of grace. It is more than contempt for what God has chosen, it is the presumption that raises itself to contend with the divine right to choose, revealing a lack of consciousness of the extent of sin’s ruin, and the only just provision for its remedy. So then, the dilemma of Jerusalem, (like its trans-historical counterpart, the so-called "Jewish Problem”), is ordained to crowd the nations to a consideration of issues much larger than Jerusalem itself, viz., the question of the nature of righteousness as defined by election and grace, as set forth by Paul especially in the books of Romans and Ephesians.
It is to be expected that in the divine strategy that brings the age to its predestined conclusion, issues of this ultimate kind will not be left in the shadows, but that all nations will, at length, be required to consider the basis of righteousness and the character of grace. Such is the purpose of Jerusalem in the scheme of divine wisdom.
(Reggie Kelly - Jan 2002)
In the second paragraph, the article quotes Orr saying,
"...recent criticism has reverted to the traditional date of near A.D. 96"
And RECENT CRITICISM has sanctioned:
Immorality
Immodesty
Sodomy
Simony
Annihilationism
Feminism
Secularism
Liberalism
Relativism
Universalism
Anarchism
Transgenderism
Traditionalism
Postmodernism
Easybelievism
Sensationalism
Dualism
Modalism
Futurism
Atheism
Nihilism
Hedonism
Nationalism
Zionism
Mohammedism
Roman Catholicism
Ecumenism
Evolution
Cohabitation
Fornication
It does not surprise me that RECENT CRITICISM sanctions Futurism and Rapturism as well.
.
Brother you say the Edwin Orr sanctions futurism and the rapture. I would agree with futurism and certainly agree with the rapture. Let me say that I do not hold to the pre-trib rapture but believe it will occur after the tribulation. But I hold too futurism in that I believe in a future return of Jesus Christ.
But that brings me to the questions I posed in my previous post. If you hold that Revelation was written in 70AD or earlier. Have all the prophetic events been fulfilled?
The most important prophetic event being the second return, the final return of Jesus Christ. Do you believe that Jesus already returned? Or do you believe that He is yet to return? I would be interested in knowing your views on this. Or anyone else who holds to what we call praeterism.
My questions are posed respectfully. Not to be adversarial. But for those who hold to a praetorist position. What is your position on the second Advent of Jesus Christ.
Bro Blaine
Re edited to get out elements of the previous post.
I answer respectfully
In regards to the question you ask, I hold to the same understanding that men such as R.C. Sproul,Jay Adams,Kenneth Gentry,Hank Hanegraff, and Gary DeMar hold to, to name just a few.
Thanks for asking respectfully
Joe Richardson sets forth a good case as to why the United States is not mystery Babylon.
Bro BlaineÂ
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