Opinions wanted

If I were this person my response would be "why do we have to compare what flawed humans have done to what an all powerful and Holy God would do? God had any number of other solutions available to him short of total annihilation" --- or something like that.

The problem is that the story does not make logical sense so it's difficult to use logic to defend it.

I've come across this line of reasoning more than once. It all boils down to people thinking they know better than God; it's self righteousness. Should God have just let the Canaanites keep murdering children? Just let the citizens of Sodom and Gommorah rape and torture innocent travellers? I've learned to never apologize for God. If someone mentions the flood, I'll say "God also commanded the Israelites to wipe out the Canaanites, and He has judged other societies in the past." If someone questions God's actions, I will tell them (in love), "It's YOUR sense of justice that is warped."

I would point out that God gave the pre flood world 120 years to repent, and the canaanites over 400.

I like what Ray Comfort said about Richard Dawkins, namely, that he is an idolater. He has constructed a cruel, angry, vengeful god while totally ignoring God's mercy, love and justice. These self professed atheists like Bill Maher and Christopher Hitchens are really good at knocking down straw men, but that's it.

Quote:

"I would point out that God gave the pre flood world 120 years to repent, and the canaanites over 400."

In regard to the canaanites, what meaningful opportunity were they given to repent? Just curious where you see this in scripture.

We know that Noah was a preacher of righteousness, and that must mean he warned the people of his day. However, some estimates say there were millions of people living in the pre flood world. In all probability, Noah did not preach to every person in the pre flood world. People have a God given conscience. They know right from wrong.
Surely the Canaanites knew their immoral practices were wrong and wicked in the sight of God. When God made a covenant with Abraham, He said, "In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure." Genesis 15:16. That sounds like God was giving them an opportunity to repent.

Genesis 6:1,2,4 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

I think one of the reasons that God was so grieved with mankind which triggered the flood as judgment to wipe out this corrupted race of humans was that the basic make up (DNA) of created man had so dramatically changed that they were turn into a hybrid of man and the son's of God.

The Bible describes God’s selection of Noah in order to preserve mankind. Noah qualified because he was "perfect” in his generation. Could it be that he had perfect human DNA which was not corrupted by the sons of God.

On that note: we have reached a time where once again the human DNA could be tampered with....

Nigel- I know all that. But who was preaching to the Canaanites??

It is hard for people to repent who are preached to, much more so those who hear nothing.

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,[fn] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3. 9

Todd, I know you are being 'atheists advocate', but although there is no clear evidence that anyone preached to the Canaanites, but there is also no evidence to say someone did not, or that they did not know right from wrong.

However as believers we know it is God's character to be merciful and always give men opportunity to repent, so that is why we would know that if God waited in His patience 400 years before He brought judgemnt it was to give time to see if they would change their ways, much like the people of Ninevah in Jonah's day.

That may not sattisfy an atheist who wants an accuse to accuse God of wickedness, but it should satisfy a believer and also a person who genuinely wants to find God.

Edit:Scripture added.

Todd, I'm sure the Canaanites heard news from neighbouring countries, and that would have included Egypt where the Israelites were for 400 years. They must have known about God. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob sojourned among them. They must have known about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Even in the book of Joshua, news spread pretty fast to the Canaanites that the children of Israel were coming to occupy the land. They even had the opportunity to leave before Joshua and his armies got there. All of this, coupled with their consciences (if they still had one) screaming at them "No!!! It's wrong to sacrifice children on altars!!! It's wicked to have sex with animals!!! Stop this or God will judge you!!!" Even if there is no scripture verse that says "God sent the prophet so-and-so to warn the Canaanites", God is still merciful. Why bother giving them 400 years at all? Why not just raise up another nation to wipe them off the face of the map?

And as for atheists, none of their arguments hold any water. Bill Maher criticizes religion, but he is in favour of legalized prostitution! Think of it! Has this blind leader of the blind ever met a prostitute? They are poor, hurting victims who have to sell their bodies to satisfy some horrible addiction or get money for their pimp! There are many child prostitutes; some of them are raped, murdered and abused beyond my powers of description. And these so-called "enlightened" atheists who have thrown off the shackles of "oppressive religion" have a problem with justice? They complain that "God did nothing to help the Jews during the holocaust", for example, but if God does judge a nation like the Canaanites, they say He is barbaric! They would say the same thing if God intervened in wartime Germany. (Which He did if you think about it; he sent the Allies.)

These are all good arguments.

What convinced me about the evil of the canaanites is that they had a huge hollow bronze statue of molech with arms stretched out in front. They built fires inside the idol and it got red hot. Then they would get music playing really loud so that when they laid a baby in the outstretched arms it's screams would not interfere with their orgies in front of the idol.

God would not be God if He did not judge such wickedness.

Colin, I don't agree that fallen angels can mate with women. A lot of this is from the book of Enoch, and some people have tried to make Genesis agree with it. I agree with John Wesley's commentary:

"That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose." Genesis 6:2

The sons of God ”” Those who were called by the name of the Lord, and called upon that name, married the daughters of men - Those that were profane, and strangers to God. The posterity of Seth did not keep to themselves as they ought, but intermingled with the race of Cain: they took them wives of all that they chose - They chose only by the eye: They saw that they were fair - Which was all they looked at.

It would also seem to contradict Matthew 22:30 "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

Quote: Colin, I don't agree that fallen angels can mate with women.

Here is something for you to think about..

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

"they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men"

Just what (or who) are "mingling with the seed of men?" These would seem to refer to some beings who are not the seed of men themselves!

Could this be a hint of a return to the mischief of Genesis 6?

Jesus said,

But you do not believe, because you are not my sheep. John 10:26

OPINION - The judgment which the mind forms of any proposition, statement, theory or event, the truth or falsehood of which is supported by a degree of evidence that renders it probably, but does not produce absolute knowledge or certainty.

OPINION is when the assent of the understanding is so far gained by evidence of probability, that it rather inclines to one persuasion than to another, yet not without a mixture of uncertainty or doubting. - Webster's 1828 Dictionary

Our calling is to proclaim the Truth of God in His Word, not our opinions!

Frank: Romans 2 gives what I think is the best argument. Man has an innate knowledge that there is a God to whom he is accountable. His very sense of being right or of being wronged and the laws he makes as a result are ample evidence of that. A truly honest man will seek for that creator.

I have dealt with many people who ask the kind of questions that this man is asking you. In most all cases, the question is simply an argument, meant to sooth the mind and give justification for rejecting God. They usually don't really want to know. They usually know already, and reject, hence the argument.

On the outside chance that this man is sincere with his question, and he may very well be, I would turn him to scripture. I would show him that we are all worthy of death by the very fact that we have sinned, and that a person who does not turn to God doubly so be the fact that this person has spurned the sacrifice of his creator that was meant to reinstate their once lost relationship.

Another interesting note about Genesis and the flood. There is some scriptural evidence that the pre-flood people had a second chance after death to accept Christ. 1 Peter 3:18-20, depending, I guess, on how you understand these verses.

2 Timothy 2:19
The foundation of God stands firm, and it has this seal: "And THE LORD knows those who are His, and let everyone who calls on the name of THE LORD separate from evil."

Numbers 16:5
The LORD knows those who are His, and him who is holy, and hath brought near unto Him; even him whom He doth fix on, He bringeth near unto Him.

Savanna it would be helpful if you would explain what in the world you are talking about.

"Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

"they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men"

Just what (or who) are "mingling with the seed of men?" These would seem to refer to some beings who are not the seed of men themselves!

Could this be a hint of a return to the mischief of Genesis 6?"

It would make no sense for God to make angelic beings capable of reproduction with humans. If they could, why have they not done it through the ages?

Frank, I did not read all the replies but this is my take - maybe someone else said the same?

Quote:

"who accused God of being guilty of genocide and if He was a loving God then surely there must have been a better way to deal with the pre-flood world other than killing them all,"

It has been several thousand years since the flood and people are back to sinning just as before but God has not sent a flood to rid the earth the earth of all the vile people that populate it. How does this fellow think God should work to limit evil among people? Does this fellow have any sense of justice? How does he think righteous people and evil ones should be dealt with?

This is what I thought of when I read your question.

Sandra

Quote:"How does this fellow think God should work to limit evil among people? Does this fellow have any sense of justice? How does he think righteous people and evil ones should be dealt with?"

Again I am stating what an atheist or honest seeker might say- namely that even evil human parents generally do not drown their children in the bathtub when they commit an offense.

He might also say that God has many options available to Him short of wiping out HIS creation. After all he is omnipotent, omniscient and loving. To suggest that total annihilation was the only option available to Him seems to be selling Him a tad short.

"Again I am stating what an atheist or honest seeker might say- namely that even evil human parents generally do not drown their children in the bathtub when they commit an offense."

When I talk to sinners, I don't rely on convincing arguments. The Holy Spirit has to convict them because I can't. They must see that even one sin is infinitely offensive to a holy God. If they say "What I have done isn't that bad, I've never killed anyone" I say "Oh really? Have you ever had hatred in your heart towards anyone? That's murder (not according to their definition of murder; they don't get to make the rules)." Looking with lust is adultery etc. We must see things from a heavenly perspective. If they think God is being a big bad ogre for punishing sin, I'll tell them what the Bible says, pray for them and leave it in God's hands. Again, I've learned a long time ago to never apologize for God. The problem is their understanding of sin, righteousness and judgment is warped.

As for the flood, get them to actually read what Genesis says. "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence." Genesis 6:5,11
Just imagine what it was like. Here is a man raping his 2 year old daughter. There, 10 people are cheering on a man beating a helpless old man to death. There is a woman sacrificing her child to some monstrous idol.
How could a just God let all of this go on?

Quote: "How could a just God let all of this go on?"

You definitely paint a terrible picture and I have no doubt that it is likely accurate.

So if you peel one more layer off the onion, one may ask "how could God let all this happen in the first place?"

Remember- the atheists answer to this question is "he couldn't/wouldn't, therefore he does not exist."

That is summarizing the argument greatly but that is generally how it would go.

The only reasonable reading of scripture is that God created mankind knowing they would turn out evil, and then punishes them for turning out as he expected. That is a hard thing for a Christian to grasp, much more so an atheist.

"How could a just God let all of this go on?"

But our God is in the heavens; Whatsoever pleased Him He hath done. Psalm 115:3

Whatever the LORD pleased, that he has done, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps. Psalm 135:6

"The only reasonable reading of scripture is that God created mankind knowing they would turn out evil, and then punishes them for turning out as he expected."

I respectfully disagree. God does have foreknowledge, but man also has a free will. People chose to do those things; they could have chosen to seek God like Enoch did. Remember what Paris Reidhead said "It isn't good man that's in trouble with a bad God; bad men deserve the wrath and anger of a good God."
I think it's tripe to believe that God makes some men good and makes others evil, then punishes the evil ones for doing what he created them to do. In my opinion, telling someone that they were created a sinner is giving them a license to reject God. Remember these atheists are also the one who scoff when you tell them Jesus rose from the dead, or that He even existed. I would also say that their minds are bound by the devil to believe some of the nonsense that's being pushed on them; things like amorality and atheistic evolution.

And I have no doubt the pre flood world was indescribably worse than I portrayed it.

I am not disagreeing with you in general.

But the argument is not that God created some men good and some men evil, but rather that he created them with a free will knowing they would choose evil.

Who do we blame when young kids are spoiled brats- the kids or the parents?

"I think it's tripe to believe that God makes some men good and makes others evil, then punishes the evil ones for doing what he created them to do."

Romans 9

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Savannah, can we please not get into a Calvinism/Arminianism debate? Greg expressly forbids it. God bless you.

"But the argument is not that God created some men good and some men evil, but rather that he created them with a free will knowing they would choose evil."

While I do believe in God's foreknowledge, I also believe some people will end up in hell when they should have gone to heaven. Remember, "God is not willing that ANY should perish," so this must include pre flood people. I always say to people that God does not send you to hell, you choose to go there. A professed atheist (I don't believe any honest person can deny there is a Creator) is suppressing knowledge in unrighteousness; people can see the incredible design all around them in nature, they know there is something more to human beings than just a bunch of random chemicals, there is a spark of life in them; they also believe in things they can't see or explain, like love.

Hey Nigel-

I didn't want you to think I was disagreeing with your arguments. Because really I don't as I think they are good ones.

I think it's helpful to have discussions like this to help us think clearly and to be prepared.

Like someone said "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." That certainly would apply to an atheist.

For sure brother; I know you are only presenting an atheist's viewpoint. It definitely is helpful to get differing viewpoints.

God is just. Therefore, whatever He does is just. He cannot contradict Himself. He is perfect integrity within Himself and His nature, persons, characteristics, actions, motivations, etc. That has to be our baseline because it is what He has revealed Himself to be in His word. It doesn't convince the naysayer and unbeliever, but it is so.
We have to know that even as we try to explain God to unregenerate men who can never know Him in their carnal state. There is more than a mere language barrier between Him and them and between us and them; there is that barrier between life and death that only Jesus bridges and that is only crossed when He is believed.

Having said that, whenever an unbeliever accuses God of genocide or whatever other injustice among men He is accused of, the crucial process is securing our own knowledge of Him. Because such statements are not so much questions seeking answers as they are accusations against us demanding a defense of our faith in Him in the first place.

So, what do I know of God and His actions toward men over time?

1. God created the heavens and earth and all that is in them for His pleasure and through the person of Jesus Christ. It was good. Gen. 1, John 1, 1 John 1 and 2, Ephesians 3, Rev. 4:11, others.

2. God knows the end from the beginning; God planned the end from the beginning. Isaiah 46 is a helpful chapter here.

3. God's creation rebelled in the Garden, and from there two relevant developments happened: Men multiplied and grew thoroughly wicked. Wickedness was great in the earth (Gen. 6:5), man's imagination and heart was ONLY evil ALWAYS (Gen. 6:5), man was so violent that his violence filled the earth (Gen. 6:11), and the whole earth was corrupt (Gen. 6:12).

4. Of all mankind, God, who judges hearts, had a man that He would entrust with His plan for all ages. Noah, who was just, "perfect in his generation", he walked with God and "found grace" in the eyes of the Lord (Gen. 6:8-9). So, God was true to Himself, true to His plan, and He did not destroy the creation that had not yet (and still has not yet) fulfilled the purposes for which He created it.

5. God spared Noah and his family. He gave Noah an assignment, a warning, a message, and a promise. 1.Build the ark. 2. A flood is coming on the earth to destroy all. 3. Tell people what I'm going to do (2 Pet. 2:5 calls Noah a "preacher of righteousness"). 4. I will spare you.

6. No one evidently listened and only 8 people -- Noah and his family --were spared who believed God and obeyed Him and entered that Ark.

As a brief side, let me ask this: How do YOU know when a great wrong has been "made right"? Justice leaves a witness, doesn't it? Wars are fought over justice. Men are executed over justice. When God acts, because He IS by nature just, He acts justly/with justice. The great sweep of the flood is not only a memorial to the degree of depravity of humanity (of which people will ask, "Was it THAT bad?"), but an earth-changing memorial to the inviolable holiness of God (to leave no question in the minds of men, "Is He THAT holy?"). There is nothing more just to the Noahic world than to declare His holiness in the most inarguable terms so that future generations will know He is God: Destroy it. And, He did. The post-flood world is a witness to the truth that God will not suffer the sinfulness of man forever, but that He will reckon with it and us. That was always His intent. And, the flood speaks to it, and to that day of judgment yet to come.

Now to speed this up:

7. From the family of Noah, God brought Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He called out Israel as His own. He put them in the earth as a witness of His righteousness and His ways with His laws and the revelation of Himself in Word.

8. From Israel, in the fullness of time, He sent His Son, Jesus in the likeness of a man, in the likeness of sinful flesh, the God-man. Do you understand that God -- infinite, eternal, holy -- in the person of the Son, became man. What He did leave to assume our form!!! Just take a small moment to consider what all He gave up when He humbled Himself and became a man. I mean, we groan impatiently to God who is not bound by time, but God became a man, binding Himself to time for a time, to groan in the flesh to atone for our sins that He did not commit. Oh, brothers and sisters, when Jesus said "God so loved that world that He gave His only begotten Son", that "gave" already happened. He gave the Son by having Him humble to the point of being an embryo, a baby, a toddler, a child, a teen and a man -- even before He gave Him up on a cross. He gave His Son, who is the Word made flesh, and God's Word always accomplishes the purposes He sends it to. That purpose has not yet been fulfilled, but we are approaching the day. Yes, sir, we are.

9. Jesus died on Calvary. He rose again. Jesus, the same yesterday, today and forever. Jesus, the one mediator between God and man who IS a Man. Jesus, the one who will return as King of this creation, who will personally fulfill all that God created it for in the beginning.

10. He will judge the living and the dead. Rev. 20:12.

This is how God deals with man. And, He is faithful. He is just. When I am questioned "how can a good God do that?", "how can a good God wipe out his creation like that?", it helps me to affirm what I know of Him already. These things I know.

By the Holy Spirit, I may speak them to dead men whose only goal is to accuse Him and deny Him when they question me. Maybe the Spirit of God will quicken them to believe, and it is our responsibility to have a ready answer for those who ask why we have hope. But, make no mistake. The strategy of Satan is to deceive, wear you out, make you give up. Don't forget that this is God, and this is how He deals with man, and this is what He's doing, and He's not done.