Inspiration from Revelation

A poster, Lysa, suggested I begin a thread where others can come along and post inspiration they have received from this book. Now I will proceed with this but before I go any further, I would like to say upfront I am more interested in learning how this book has blessed you, what do you hear it saying and how has it impacted you. (Revelation 1:3)

As I look at the book and the events described I take the position they will happen as stated. If the language is figurative it will be indicated and then give its interpretation - like the prophecies concerning Jesus' birth, ministry, death and resurrection.

If you post it could be helpful if you would give your post a title.

God bless.

Sandra

Revelation 1:3: Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

I find this verse compelling: this book contains a wealth of blessings that is for the taking IF we apply ourselves to it. Many are put off by the judgments detailed herein - and I understand this, been there done that. I learned that John is sharing a vision given to him by Jesus (v.1) and he is merely sharing these details. Now, it is up to me to apply myself to understand what he saw.

The descriptions given in Revelation are descriptive, at times horrible but intermingled with it is praise from the angels and saints. Can I praise God when he inflicts judgments upon the world? Opps....

Blessed is he who reads and heeds...anything practical in this? Indeed it is.

For me the a practical thing is that God knows the future, EVERYTHING is under his control, power and the devil is working to thwart it at every turn and that is what it is all about: it is war. And God's creation is caught in the middle of it.

Will sign off for now and let you share..

Sandra

Quote: "a practical thing is that God knows the future, EVERYTHING is under his control..."

When I read your statement something struck me, namely whether our actions now CHANGE the future.

I certainly hope so or or actions, prayers, obedience etc would seem pointless.

I have a thought from Revelation 21. But, since we are only in Revelation 1, I'll leave it a little while.

Take care and God bless.

"I certainly hope so or or actions, prayers, obedience etc would seem pointless."

TMK - I wish you would expound on this issue. I have wondered about it a lot myself.

Sandra

Revelation 1:6:"and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father."

I find this concept challenging, at the least.

We are called to be priests. What does this entail? What does it mean to be a priest?

Jesus is using a metaphor the people were familiar with and so can we if we study the life of a priest, the ministry of priests, their role in society as commanded in Leviticus. How it worked out in shoe leather can be understood by a study of the historical sections in the OT.

Consider:
1. Priests were scattered throughout the country, did not have a section of land like the other tribes.

2. They were the conscience in their community.

3. They were the intercessors before God for their people.

4. They lived under restrictions far more limited then the general population.

5. They were knowledgeable of diseases - could determine when one was unclean or healed of an infirmity.

6. They were to be pure and holy.

There may be others points one could list, but does this not sound like like a precursor to the Sermon on the Mount?

This is what Believers are called to. Sobering - especially more so when one studies the life, purpose of a priest in Jewish society.

Sandra

Some OT priests were pretty rotten. Thank goodness we have the HS to help us along.

Arguably our primary responsibility as priests is intercession, and the state of the Church is directly proportional to the failure to fulfill this responsibility.

Sandra asked: "TMK - I wish you would expound on this issue. I have wondered about it a lot myself."

Well, my statement was somewhat rhetorical because I really believe that prayers, etc DOES change things and is not just some sort of a mystical exercise that was preordained eons ago.

I am in agreement Bear.

They were also to teach the difference between the clean and the unclean, between the holy and the profane.

Glad you started this Sandra. =)

______________
REJOICE! =)
Mary

QUOTE:
"Arguably our primary responsibility as priests is intercession, and the state of the Church is directly proportional to the failure to fulfill this responsibility."

A fine example of this occurred in the OT. I used to be so perplexed over how the northern kingdom of Israel had such bad kings and how wicked the people had become, vs the southern kingdom, Judah, that had cycles of revival, backsliding and revival. What was the difference? God sent prophets to Israel but it was a no-go, for the most part.

After posing this question to a preacher he directed me to an incident as recorded in 2Chronicles 11:14-17:

14 For the Levites left their pasture lands and their property and came to Judah and Jerusalem, for Jeroboam and his sons had excluded them from serving as priests to the LORD.

15 He set up priests of his own for the high places, for the satyrs and for the calves which he had made.

16 Those from all the tribes of Israel who set their hearts on seeking the LORD God of Israel followed them to Jerusalem, to sacrifice to the LORD God of their fathers.

17 They strengthened the kingdom of Judah and supported Rehoboam the son of Solomon for three years, for they walked in the way of David and Solomon for three years.

Insightful, I think. People have not changed a lot since, have they?

Sandra

EDIT: The Levites were no longer living in the northern kingdom, hence the people's inclination to wickedness and staying there. They did not have the presence of God's intercessors living among them.

One thing I am so amazed about is how God worked to prove his authority, his power and might to people. He had to do so to establish his authority, his right to say what is absolute. To accomplish this goal He used his creation - the observable and the hidden. People are left gasping knowing there is something, Someone greater and more powerful then we are acquainted with, what we can observe around us. Who, what is this power, this person?

Jesus did this when he showed Himself in his glory to John. Not sure why He believed it essential to show Himself in all his majesty to the disciple whom "he loved" but he did...maybe it was for our edification? Maybe even the most faithful will at times experience doubts? Just saying....

After Jesus showed himself to John he says he fell "fell at His feet like a dead man." If John, who knew Jesus better then most would respond in like manner, how much more we?

Unless we revere Jesus in our hearts, we will challenge Him him, doubt him. In the pages to come we will read of God's wrath, his mercy, his judgement, rewards - both good and bad. Does he have the right to mete out these judgments?

Let us see...

Sandra

"But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last." Rev. 1:17

It's kind of a strange thing for Jesus to say to allay John's fear. He didn't say, "It's me, Jesus, your friend."
But Jesus knew exactly the right thing to say in that circumstance to calm John's fears.

I wonder what he will say to me?

After Jesus showed himself to John he says he fell "fell at His feet like a dead man." If John, who knew Jesus better then most would respond in like manner, how much more we?

I believe that this idea of seeing Jesus anew is key to the Book of Revelation and to any time of decline in the Church.

The Book of Revelation was written at a time when decline had already set in among some of the churches as is seen in chapters 2-3. God's answer to such a time is a fresh revelation of His Son. How we need that spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him!

Open the eyes of my heart, Lord
Open the eyes of my heart
I want to see You
I want to see You

To see You high and lifted up
Shinin' in the light of Your glory
Pour out Your power and love
As we sing holy, holy, holy

In Christ,

In the letters to the churches, we notice how he knows everything about them - their strengths, their faults. We also notice he did not overlook their faults but challenged them to repentance.

Ephesian Churches strengths:
1. Cannot tolerate evil men

2. Put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false

3 Have perseverance and have endured for My name’s sake

4. Have not grown weary.

Ephesian Churches' Faults

1. Left their first love.

Opps!

This point speaks profoundly to me. As one grows in their knowledge of the LORD Jesus, admires Him for who He is and what He has done and will do, gain a sense of the Holiness of God - this in contrast to the wickedness we see abounding uncheck around us, I get exasperated at times. I get impatient with the stupidity among people who should know better AND they work to convince us of the rightness of their opinions! Then I am reminded of Jesus warning in Matthew 24:12: "Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold." This comes back to challenge me, haunt me that I just do not love people like he wants me to.It gets to be a real challenge to know how to deal with people who work to destroy you and those who are just plain wicked.

And Jesus says to repent of having left our first love. We can get so involved in fighting evil we lose our love for our Savior. When this happens how does it impact our interaction with the unlovely?

Many times I have to ask the LORD to infuse me with his love for the unlovely because I ran out and have no more to give. I am running on empty. Emotionally I feel dry, bone dry. But when asked in faith, He will give you the love you need.

We can be so right and yet so wrong. Sobering.

Sandra

Two thoughts:

1. NT says as priests we offer to God spiritual sacrifices which are defined in various NT texts and,

2. Prayer does not change the future, it partners with God to create it. This is how God's sovereignty works. He ordains it and through prayer He allows us help create what He has willed.

When we pray according to His will we receive what we ask.

I tend to believe that the Ephesians had lost the love they had at first for one another; brotherly love. Paul wrote the Ephesians church and commended them for their faith in Him and their live for the saints. Often right doctrine can puff up and we may have no love for the brethern and Paul and Jesus condemn this as missing the point.

There are a few things with the church at Smyrna that teach me lessons for today:

1. That persecution has a cleansing effect on the church. (Greg posted an informative article informing one of the high number of mainland-Chinese who backslide back after becoming Believers in the west.)

2. In Smyrna's case it appears a lot of the persecution came at the hands of the Jews.

3. Persecution comes from the devil.

4. Persecution will end - "you will have tribulation for ten days".

In our case today in the USA how much of the opposition comes from so-called Christians? I would guess all of it. If one checks into the perversions that have gained a lot of traction in the USA we see the modern church giving them voice, support and a platform in which to promote their agenda. If one speaks out against it one is called unloving - and no one wants to be perceived as such!

But...

Jesus says it will end - someday. YES!

In the meantime there is a separating of the sheep from the goats and sometimes the goats will baa like a sheep and how we can discern which baaa is from the goat will become a challenge.

I love it when Jesus promises a great blessing to the faithful, the overcomers....does this not thrill you? It provides one with the fortitude to persevere.

Sandra

Great thread Sandra!

-quote-
In our case today in the USA how much of the opposition comes from so-called Christians? I would guess all of it. If one checks into the perversions that have gained a lot of traction in the USA we see the modern church giving them voice, support and a platform in which to promote their agenda. If one speaks out against it one is called unloving - and no one wants to be perceived as such!
-quote Sandra-

These are very trying times we live in today! But the true church must prevail in spite of all accusations against them. We must be glad to be counted worthy to suffer for our Lord Jesus Christ!

Blessings to all!

Blaine wrote: "That was the length of time they had to renounce Christ. If they did not renounce Christ at the end of 10 days, then they would martyred."

I did not know that. Makes sense. Appreciate you sharing this. This is a powerful piece of info to tuck into my brain.

See? Is it not amazing how much inspiration Revelation has? No end - maybe this is why I love it so?

Sandra

Pergamum has a lot going for it - or so IT seems:

1. Held fast Jesus name

2. Did not deny the faith even in the days of Antipas who was killed

BUT:

1. They hold to the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel

2. Eat things sacrificed to idols

3. Commit acts of immorality.

4. Hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans

Lesson:

We see many churches who are involved in immorality who still seem to have faithful people within their ranks. They are good people, they do not deny the faith but they tolerate (?) immorality, or maybe they feel helpless to fight it. Could be a bit of both. In any case Jesus tells them to repent. I see here how dangerous it is to be part of a brotherhood where immorality is common, even grudgingly accepted.

This behooves me to be more aggressive in warning people to get out of these 'churches' using this church as an example of God's will in the matter.

God is so merciful - he warns, promises great blessings if repented...How much kinder can he get?

Sandra

Just want to share a note that I will likely not be on SI until next Tuesday. Hoping you will carry on - may be able to check in but not post.

You see....we are planning to go to our granddaughter's wedding in PA!!! :-) I am so excited - like a child jumping up and down clapping her hands. They have maintained a pure courtship - as far as I know (she told me how important this is to them when they were courting). It is a celebration of joy rooted in purity and the will of God.

As I considered the thrill, the joy I am experiencing my mind went to Revelation 19:7-9:

7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.”

8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

9 Then he said to me, "Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he said to me, "These are true words of God.

If in my imperfection can know the delight of seeing a godly couple come together to marry, how much more will the joy of Jesus be at HIS wedding feast! My! I wonder what they will serve?!

Sandra

Rev. 2:20-23:
‘But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.

21‘I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.

22‘Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.

23‘And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

Lesson:
1. Holiness will not tolerate immorality among God's people.

2. All the good you do will not protect you from God's judgement.

3. People involved in sexual sin do not want to repent of their sin. Sounds familiar... nothing new under the sun, is there? Actually, it has been said illicit sex is more addicting then heroin - so it was said 20 years ago, not sure what they are saying today.

4. Sin always has consequences - in this case immorality puts its participants at risk for diseases. Sixty years ago there were only a few STDs today there 20 different types with up to 30 distinct bacteria, parasites and viruses transmitted by sexual activity. And it is all preventable by following God's law for moral purity. We see this judgement at work today, not waiting for some distant future to fulfill.

5. When God says "no" or "don't" there are good reasons to obey. Some of the reasons are not as obvious as others but this should not be the determining factor in whether or how we obey. We obey because his Spirit dwells with in enabling us to walk with Him and we love Him.

Following God's law for life, Him enabling his children to do so promotes health, longevity and makes it a whole lot easier to walk with God because you focus on Him and not how to please yourself.

Sandra

Revelation 2:25-29 (NASB)
25 ‘Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.

26‘He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;

27 AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;

28 and I will give him the morning star.

29 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

The rewards for taking a stand against immorality within the church is very difficult IF most of the people have in the name of love developed a tolerance to it, even if they personally do not like like it. But Jesus says if you stand against it he will appoint you as a ruler over nations.

Revelation 20:4 (NASB)
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years

I used to understand that the only ones who were resurrected in the first resurrection were those who had been beheaded but according to Rev. 2:26,27 those who stand strong against immorality will be deemed worthy to rule with Jesus a thousand years as well.

Standing against immorality is HARD when it is all around you, enticing you at every turn. Evil men have taken something beautiful and made it ugly. Nothing uglier then perversion.

Now, I wonder - how can a Christian exemplify the beauty of purity? hmmmm....something to think about and pray about.

Sandra

When you look at this church you need to understand some of the context. This persecution was primarily a "Jewish" persecution...what do I mean by this? Most likely the Christian "cult" called "The Way" were attending a very large jewish synagogue, thus the reference in ch2 vs9 also emperor worship was big in that city and to a unconverted jew to confess Caesar as lord was no big deal...BUT to the children of The Way this was equal to blasphemy and they would in no way do this ritual and their chief persecutors being jews from the same "organized church" location would have known this and used it against them to bring those jewish believers in messiah to court not only for gain....reward...but also to improve their own social status. Polycarp who was a direct disciple of the Apostle John the beloved did martyr there being burned at the stake but only dieing after he was run through by a spear to his side, his blood spilling out and quenching the flames, tradition says the smell was that of myrrh. A chief product from that area .

The 10 days can be literal as some have claimed..if so that comforts us that God has set a limit or it can be 10 periods of persecution which fell under 10 different emperors of Rome. Which would also be accurate historically.

//quote//See? Is it not amazing how much inspiration Revelation has? No end - maybe this is why I love it so?

The only book of the bible that promises a blessing to those who read it and understand it.

Rev. 3:1: To the angel of the church in Sardis write:
He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

I never noticed before the frequency of this complaint in Jesus' messages to these churches.

Obviously, most of these churches were populated with good people: they were involved in doing good. Jesus was well aware of it but He was not impressed, no, he was very displeased. So bad that he says He will REMOVE their name from the book of life if they do not repent.

So, what is the thing they were missing out on? Jesus says, "So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent." Ah, our first love...

As I reflect on the busyness of living being a senior, wife, mother/grandmother with adult children, the demands of living one can become so preoccupied with living you neglect your time with the LORD - don't have time, got to be at a certain place certain time. Before too long the joy of the LORD becomes a mere memory that had receded into the distant past.

Jesus says repent. Repenting means one has to recognize his failures, assume responsibility for them and ask the LORD Jesus for help in overcoming. He loves to do that. Too many times in the busyness of life I have found love for Jesus lacking - my fault, not his'. The marvelous thing is that when this happens and I talk to Him about it and ask him to help me with this, He always does...I run out of gas and he loves to refill the tank!

When I lose the sense of the majesty of God I am on the way to losing my first love.

More can be said...how about you?

Sandra

DMiller wrote: """ Polycarp who was a direct disciple of the Apostle John the beloved did martyr there being burned at the stake but only dieing after he was run through by a spear to his side, his blood spilling out and quenching the flames, tradition says the smell was that of myrrh. A chief product from that area ."""

Please help me understand. who did martyr? who was burned?
Are you saying Polycarp was martyred or He did the martyring?
where does it say the blood put out the fire and smelled like myrrh?

Sorry I cannot put it together no matter how many times I read it.

In Christ: Phillip

Polycarp was a disciple of the apostle John and he resided Smyrna and was bishop over that congregation. Eusebius recounts his life and works along with him being martyred in the early persecution, Lightfoot also notes the similar tradition historically but can be a bit more laborious to get through. It been awhile since I read Fox' s book of Martyrs but it may be mentioned in that work also. Sorry I was not clear...sometime my mind races faster than my fingers work on these keys and I do not take the time to proof read...I've missed entire sections of thought at times! Anyway church tradition states that he was burned at the stake but it took a thrust of a spear in his side to kill him. Similar things happened when saints who were feed to wild beasts, the wild beast refused to attack them so the soldiers present had to end their lives. Even John the apostle tradition says was placed in boiling oil and not harmed before being exiled to the Isle of Patmos.
Hope that clarifies it for you.

Thank you, that helps a bit. I will have to do some reading on Polycarp. Fascinating though. My mind is not what it used to be, but I still use it as much as I can with the Holy Spirits help.

Again, thank you
In Christ: Phillip

QUOTE:
" My mind is not what it used to be, but I still use it as much as I can with the Holy Spirits help."

As long as one is aware of this reality, you'll do ok - I think. One also becomes more keenly aware that it is only through the mercy and grace of God that one can hope for eternal life.

It is like they say, "ageing ain't no fun and it sure ain't for sissies".

Sandra

"I know your deeds."

I just noticed the frequency of this phrase as it appears in the message to the churches. It is used five times; one time it is says "I know where you live" and the other "I know your tribulation."

Anyhow...

A person encounters a lot of people who say works do not matter in whether one is saved or not, that we are not saved by our works so works are dismissed in its entirely as being legalistic, Pharisaical.

But He still says I know your works. If they are irrelevant why make a mention of them?

Seems to me a careful meditation on this fact of Jesus knowing our works, knowing where we live, knowing our tribulation should teach one in short order the role of works in the life of a Believer.

Works and first love - how they are so intertwined they cannot be separated. Our works are evidenced by what resides in the heart.

Lots of doctrine taught here, is it not? He gets to the point quickly, does not waste words thus confusing the reader.

Sandra

He knows full well Whose works are good works? Only His works in us.

Colossians 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

All our works before the Cross were wicked. For they were works in flesh of mankind.

Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.

"sometime alienated", Strong's: "to be a non participant" that is by wicked works only.

"Yet now hath He reconciled"; Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Now! I am to work, but according to His working in me, which are the only works that count. This is to be our striving and the works that work in us mightily are His works in us, these are the only works that are works from heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

We must learn How He works and emulate in us those works for the kingdom, for that is of all His works.

In Christ: Phillip

The admonition to this church in Philadelphia are so timely. The phrase "you have kept the word of My perseverance" comes back to haunt me, challenge me.

Perseverance - the act of keeping on in spite of situations that work to deter one from his goal. To pursue successfully in face of severe opposition requires a different mindset, one that is focused on a goal not shared by popular culture. It means you think totally differently from prevailing culture; it allows the Word of God to permeate his being, train his emotions, his approach to life and the curves it throws at you. This mindset is en-powering. It is being other-worldly.

Now, because you have this mindset what is the LORD Jesus promising? An open door, one that no man can shut. And...those who deal in lies "I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you." Interesting. We all know that holiness will spare one from suffering the consequences of sin and the resulting tests that are sure to come...But to have liars come and acknowledge the rightness of what you stand for? Imagine that in today's climate of lies! Whether they will or not, time will prove the truthfulness of God's WORD, no doubt about it.

Welll.....been discouraged lately? I have. Can't give up...then the question comes, 'why do I allow another person's sin disturb my well-being? Why do I allow their sin to impact my emotions? Why?' The promise is given that if you persevere you will be saved from testing. Hmmm.... You know what? when I cast this situation at his feet and let Him deal with it - knowing full well the devil is in it - it would save me a lot of grief.

This admonition to Philadelphia is just as timely today as it was in the day it was given, don't you think? It is for me.

Sandra

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. Proverbs 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Psalms 18:33 He maketh my feet like hinds' feet, and setteth me upon my high places.

You raise me up to stand upon the mountains, You raise me up to walk on stormy seas, I am strong when I am on Your shoulders, You lift me up to more than I can be.

These are the works that he knows and sends forth into our hearts.

Joh 5:20
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth Him all things that Himself doeth: and He will shew Him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Joh 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Resurrection Power that overcomes the world.

That we may marvel.

"Christ in you the hope of glory"

In Christ: Phillip

Phillip quoted:

"Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

When it comes to practical living, walking with the LORD, I consider this the best verse instructing how one should respond to the nudging of the Holy Spirit. It may not make sense, defies logic, but when obeyed it eventually makes a lot of sense. At the core we are just very ignorant folks, but when one follows the leading of the Holy Spirit insight follows.

When the LORD leads us He leads us to the difficult, the impossible - things we in our own power cannot hope to accomplish for lack of understanding, insight. But when we put our hand into His' He will assist us to accomplish His will, we become a partaker. When this happens it will feed our admiration, love, appreciation and worship for Him.

Appreciate the reminder, Phillip.

Sandra

Synagogue of Satan:

Rev.3:9b: "I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie..."

I just noticed this that got me to thinking.

Apparently there were Jews, religious ones, at that, who have apostatized to where Jesus says they are of the synagogue of Satan. No details are given as how they acquired this distinction so one is left to surmise. I wonder how many churches today could fit into this category?

In a nearby city is a large Methodist church. They put on a wonderful Christmas program every year, complete with traditional Christmas music, lights - it is beautiful, have been doing it for years and it draws large crowds. But. Then we heard they are accepting homosexual behaviors in their group. Another lady whose husbands' job forces them to move around a lot told us how they visited that church. After visiting there several times they observed the absence of the name of Jesus being used in their services; they use the name God but not Jesus.

Beautiful music, beautiful buildings, prominent. When I heard this I decided I will no longer attend any event in that building. Sounds like a modern day synagogue of Satan. Harsh words, but if Jesus used them to describe a group of people can we do any less?

Sandra

A lot has been written detailing what the spirit of Jezebel looks like but suffice it to say it is the spirit of rebellion in all its forms. I would like to visit this thought here.

A reason for sharing is what I have seen in recent days. I have seen pictures via FB of a wedding by people who grew up knowing and being aware of the principles of modesty. The wedding they financed and graced defies all they have been taught and supported in days past.

As I scrolled through the pics I saw the spirit of fornication so evident it makes me sick so I wonder, "why?" "where did we go wrong?" How can people abandon principles of modesty and embrace the world of lust via nudity?

Rev. 2:20: "Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality.." People in church leadership will in the name of love and tolerance accept prevailing fashions that feed lust via immorality. This is what Jezebel does. And Jesus says he holds this thing against them.

God helping me, I am resolving to be more aggressive in speaking out on this issue. If you talk to other seniors they will say "we are old school", "people won't listen and it is useless". Lord, help us! And you younger, would you please encourage the seniors that do work to encourage? They may not have developed encouragement into a modern - approved art form, but try to understand the spirit that drives them.

If we speak up and out people will be critical of us - but so they did to the OT prophets, throwing them into a dungeon or killing them. We MUST become more aggressive in challenging people on this issue. At its heart it is an issue of rebellion against God and one must never, ever be diverted from this reality.

Scriptures teach us that the older women need to teach the younger ones and sisters it is high time we get on the ball - and men!- if we challenge the ladies, you need to get with it for the dads! Dads need to put a foot down and tell their wives or daughters NO to immodesty even if it makes them mad. I had a niece that married and even though she and her fiance` did not know the LORD her dad insisted on a modest dress - he was very adamant and so she did and she looked very pretty.

We are living in an age where love is being redefined by allowing another to do as they pleased with no opposition from anyone! My generation was not taught that. Loving means warning, stopping people from doing things that harm themselves and others.

Can we become more loving? Can't do it without the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. But we must be obedient and I suspect we have disobeyed too many times out of fear of man. God help us!

Sandra

Rev. 3:14 NASB
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:"

Much has been written, said, about the church at Laodicea because of its parallels with current Christianity. It seems this insight cannot be exhausted because of the perceptions people have of prevailing culture and how it is so well described in the following verses. Today I would like to share how I consider Jesus' description of Himself is so deep, so profound - so profound that it cannot be exhausted.

He describes Himself as the "Beginning of the Creation of God". I gather this means the creation was His idea, he was there from the get-go, designed it, supervised it (I think the Holy Spirit was very active in this process), made it.

Jesus knew from before the beginning man would sin and the remedy he will set in place to redeem man. Now think about this for a minute or two or all day. I do not know of ANYONE who will make anything that he know will come back and cause him/her ANY suffering. No one. Not only that, he made the human body to suffer pain when in conflict with nature. He knew how painful it would be to be nailed onto a cross and left there to die. He knew that a crown of thorns on his head would hurt. (Hey! let a man get a sliver and the entire world comes to a stand still!!) Jesus knew all this, designed the body to experience pain, so what is in it for HIM that he designed it such? And how is this to impact mankind?

This reality stumps my imagination, my logical mind, my comprehension - it is too far above me, too great, too awesome...

Sandra

Rev. 3:14 NASB
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:"

Jesus portrays himself as the "faithful and true witness."

True - absolute truth, no fudging of facts.

Faithful witness - says what he saw, witnessed.

Hmmmm...I had had to wonder how would people act, respond if Jesus would change the meaning of the Gospel like moderns do? What if Jesus decided he is going to destroy heaven and not allow any human in? What if? And why not? People change the meaning of the word to something other then was originally intended...You expect Jesus, God to be true but you think you have the right to change the WORD to suit your philosophical bent???

I wonder about this a lot when I read, hear how people manipulate the WORD to suit their own philosophy, to accommodate their own perversions....

What if? You don't like this idea? Likely not, so why do people think they can do it without suffering any serious repercussions?

The reality is people expect Jesus to be a true and faithful witness but do not think it is required of them to be likewise.

Sandra

by ginnyrose
Seems to me a careful meditation on this fact of Jesus knowing our works, knowing where we live, knowing our tribulation should teach one in short order the role of works in the life of a Believer.

Works and first love - how they are so intertwined they cannot be separated. Our works are evidenced by what resides in the heart.

Some place emphasis on works as to bring back the Law and others, like you said dismiss it entirely when they should not. There is a fine line and thank you for pointing it out!

Rev. 3:15:

15‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.

16‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

17‘Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked," NASB

Laodicea. How many sermons have been preached detailing the dangers of affluence and they all get their inspiration from the message to this church. After listening to a sermon many will think and say, "I do not think wealth will make me lukewarm..." Really?

Wealth enables its possessors to get what they want, how they want it and when they want it and how much. The need to ask God for daily sustenance is not there. They do not feel the need for God like one who is suffering from lack.

Still, what is affluence? How can one separate affluence from greed, covetousness? Does this mean that all who are rich are covetous? was greed the driving force in their acquisition of wealth? Are the poor exempt from these sins of greed, envy, covetousness?

As I ponder the waste that is common among the wealthy, common among the 'poor' in the USA I see little difference. But who am I to judge? As a person who was taught to be thrifty I cringe at the waste I see among these people. My generation, growing up on the farm were taught to be resourceful, to make do with what we had, be creative and DO NOT waste!

Still..this does not answer the question: what is affluence?

And then at times we are reluctant to trust God to provide for whatever we need because we are not sure we will like it - we just do not trust God.

As I ponder this question all I have to do is to look within and judge my attitude how I feel when I have plenty and when I have lack.

When I have plenty I feel no need to ask God for anything in this department. I got it. I have two freezers with food - not full, but there is food there. Same with my cupboard. I have money to buy food what I need.

If I am short on something, lack it I need God to sustain me.

Affluence is characterized by feeling a lack for God and whatever he can do for you - we have an ambivalent attitude towards God. God is someone we can manipulate by saying the 'right' thing, give the correct money. Lukewarm = lack of awe for God.

This hits us all, I suspect. And scripture tells us He will spit you out if you do not repent.

I am reminded again how I need to counsel with God as I go about my day, the decisions I make on what I should do, where I should go, what I should buy, how can I bless someone. I have learned when I do this the blessings that come my way far exceeds my expectations, they give me joy, enhances my worship, admiration for who God is. You would think as old as I am I have learned this lesson well. Not so - am still in the kindergarten class...

Sandra

Rev. 3:19,20:

‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

20‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me

Chastens. Jesus says the people he loves he chastens. I have never heard anybody give a testimony praising God for the chastening he/she is in at the moment. It ain't no fun. On the other hand once a person gets through it you can clearly see how it has worked to cleanse you from whatever it is that clogged up your life. But you have to go through it.

As one goes through the book of Revelation we will see the multiple times God inflicts chastening upon the world. The incidences of earthquakes and other calamities destroy people's security. God does this to force people to rethink their stability. Are the things I look to for security really stable? Can it be trusted to provide security, for me in challenging times?

We do not like our world to be shaken, destroyed, but it is essential for us to learn to know and then trust what always is, will be. We must learn first hand the mighty powerful things we see are at best temporal, having no eternal qualities at all. Only God is there after all has been destroyed.

And you know what? Once this reality settles into our conscience minds we can sit, sup with him and have wonderful fellowship with him. Can't get any better then this, can it? Jesus wants our full trust - He works to instill within us full trust in Him alone. Only then will we be fit for heaven. He does not want any more Lucifers in his heaven..

Sandra

Rev.4:1: After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”

I love this chapter; I love to visualize what John saw - it cranks up my imagination to the hilt! He does a fine job describing what he sees. I have read this chapter many times and it thrills me each time - it is as though I am standing beside John and seeing what he sees. I do have a problem visualizing the creature with eyes all around their heads, but suffice it to say this does not distract from the rest of the text.

Anyhow...

Beginning chapter 4 the scene shifts. This can be understood when one notices a key word in verse one: "AFTER". The angel says: "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things." The events described in the upcoming chapters are future as far as time, place from where John was. While many have worked to place the events described later in this book to events current or past, people get in a wad over various interpretations of incidents noted. Seems to me one is missing the underlying message the LORD Jesus wishes to convey.

I suggest the reader read this chapter and allow it to feed your mind, spirit with the majesty, the glory John saw. And you can see it, too! Glorious experience!

Sandra

Revelation 4

Herein John describes what he saw in heaven. He details the grandeur, the majesty, the beauty there. I try to visualize it as he describes it. The sea of glass - "and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the center and around the throne" - challenges me. I love crystal, the clarity, the ways light bounces off of it, so pure, so clear and there was around the throne a "sea of glass, like crystal"? Wow!

But this is not what impressed the other beings in heaven nor did it John, either. What did impress the others was Jesus: "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”

As I ponder their worship of Him, compare it with mine, it is so meager in comparison. Jesus' creation, his sustaining of it evoked worship by the angels and all the other creatures.

It seems to me when we work to explain away the origin of the physical world around us to natural means we are robbing Jesus of worship he deserves and is entitled to. Here we see the testimony of the heavenly beings crediting the creation of the physical world to Him - who is man to say otherwise?

Sandra

Rev. 4:7-11:
7 The first creature was like a lion, and the second creature like a calf, and the third creature had a face like that of a man, and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle.

8 And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say,

"HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME.”

9 And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever,

10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11"Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”

My mind cannot get away from these examples of Jesus' creation as depicted here.

I have always felt these creatures were symbolic of the animal kingdom: the lion - King of the wild animals; the eagle of the birds of the air; the calf represents the domestic animals which serve mankind by providing food and clothing; and the crown of all life forms, man. These creatures all praise their creator.

As I look at the animal kingdom, including all living creatures, I cannot help but contrast it with man's 'creations'. If any of our works malfunction it is dead, it can't fix itself nor will other machines or whatever come about to repair, or pick up the slack. It is totally dependent upon man for its function and repair. The animal kingdom, on the other hand, when things go wrong, other life forms will work to repair, sustain it when things go awry. It is as though it is self-sustaining - God made it such with out any active intervention. Not so with man's creation.

Yes, all nature is a reflection of its creator and it worships God. I do not understand all this but do deeply appreciate the ability to observe and see the hand of God. God's intelligence is second to none, we cannot figure him out always, but we can trust Him to do whatever he considers best because he knows more then we do.

Yes!

Sandra

What is this book?

Revelation 5:1-3:I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”

3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.

Revelation 6:1:Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, "Come.

This book. What is this book that everyone felt too intimidated to open it? I have searched Revelation and to me there is no clear word on its identification but only assumptions and that not without serious questions.

Is this book wherein are recorded the names of the faithful who will inherit heaven? If so, how is it that when the seals are being opened calamities ensue - which are detailed until about chapter 20. How is it that names could be deleted (Rev.3:5) before the seals were opened? I would understand that if a book is sealed no additions or deletions can be made after it was sealed. Or, maybe this is not the book of Life. On the other hand Scripture also teaches us in 17:8: "And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come." Note it says the names were recorded from the foundation of the world. More questions follow - is everyone's name in there but the unfaithful one's are deleted? Or, maybe this is an entirely different book.

In Revelation 20:12:And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

Here we read in chapter 20 how the books were opened and the dead were judged and rewards given. So, what is this book the Lamb was opening in chapter 5 and 6?

What say?

The inspiration I get from this dilemma is that while there are things I do not understand, it will not cause me to shun the book because of my lack of understanding but does in fact intrigue me such that it draws me more intently to it. Gives my brain a lot to mull over, meditate about and eventually I do get to connect the dots but at the moment they are not connecting on this question. Maybe they did in your mind?

Sandra

I always thought the scroll was simply the prophecies that were released as the seals were broken. As each seal was broken the scroll could be opened a tad more revealing each prophecy in turn.

Of course I may be all wet!

The book doesn't seem chronological,
However the scroll seems as though it is actually a blueprint if you will, like "Let's look over the details"

Oh, Todd! I think you are right! This explanation is so simple I wonder why I never noticed that before!

Glad you shared this.

Sandra

QUOTE:
"The book doesn't seem chronological,"

I know. I get the sense the writer in many places will tell you what is going to happen - like a brief overview, then backtracks and gives more details how this will occur. It is a lot like Genesis 1:1: In the beginning God created the earth. Then in the following verses he backs up and shares more details about when and how the heavens and the earth were created. A person could skip a fair number of verses and proceed on with little interruption in the story line.

I have this goal of sometime making a chart or timeline of Revelation...it is a dream of mine. I took notes this winter but time is now filled with helping my husband so it may have to wait. But am meditating a lot and that is half the work - not really work... Oh, I suppose I could buy one if I looked hard enough but then I would miss out on the blessings of insights one gains for doing it himself.

Sandra

Until the 6th seal the calamities are pretty straight forward: war, famine, plenty of oil and wine, persecution of the Believers. The drama accelerates beyond this point.

9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

It was bad for the Believers. But where were they? It says their souls under the altar. Not sure what this signifies except it must have been a safe place. Did you notice how they were described as? "and because of the testimony which they had maintained." Ah....they maintained their testimony.

Maintaining their testimony...this was the same message of warning given to the churches - they had a serious problem with it - leaving their first love.

Maintain their testimony. This word grabbed me this morning: maintain. Takes work - ain't no fun fighting the devil. We are in a war. But we must "maintain".

Sandra

Rev. 6:9-11 NASB
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

In these verses we read how the souls who had been persecuted for the sake of Christ were crying out for justice for pain inflicted upon them.

The response to them was a reward, and a message to just be patient, it is coming. To me this is so profound.

The modern interpretation of forgiveness teaches us one should be forgiving for pain - whatever kind - accepting them, be loving and go on, do not take offense. In the end this does not work. It works to undermine conviction, love for Jesus, and challenges one of everything you had believed to be true.

These souls were never reprimanded for asking for justice. The desire for justice is God given. We cannot mete it out, only God can do that and He does it perfectly. It is the point we need to hold close to our heart even if it results in more pain, more ostracism, more persecution and even death.

The inspiration on how to be loving to those who persecute must come from God. To work on it yourself will lead to failure and tolerance for sin. This, I believe is the issue we people in the US have to deal with. And it becomes a challenge.

These verses speak to me thus every time I read it...it may help the reader to know I was taught Biblical non-resistance and while I believe this to be true there are many who have perverted it to something completely unBiblical. You see, it does not matter what Truth you embrace, the devil will come along and pervert it. Always did and always will until he gets locked into hell.

Sandra

Revelation 6

Where is my security?

As I study the book of Revelation one learns that God is going to send calamities upon the earth, using nature and human to inflict mankind. All of these are with the purpose to destroy the things that give one a lot of security.

We can become so secure, thinking all will continue as they have since the world started spinning. The sun comes up and it goes down - all on a 24 hour cycle. Weather is predictable with some minor burps but it modifies and behaves quite well on a regular basis. One can plan to plant and harvest on a decent schedule and most of the time the weather will cooperate. And if I get to the point where I do not like its vagarities one can easily use artificial means to modify it. Routine provides one with a lot of security. There is nothing, I mean nothing that can destroy ones' security as having this disrupted.

In the loosening of these seals one sees a progression in intensity of the calamities that will befall mankind. Consider:

1. Conquering and conquering
2. Take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him. (A natural result of #1.)
3. Shortage of food. Supply of non-essentials remains unchanged.
4.Death caused by "sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth."
5. Killing of the Believers.
6. Terror caused by severe earthquakes: "and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Result: even the rulers felt helpless in face of this - they were running to hide: kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. The well-being of all was leveled. Civil authorities were helpless in face of these calamities.

Everything we know is shaken. Everything we can see has been shaken. None of these things can provide one with any security and refuge.

"What is man that thou are mindful of him?" And this is the lesson we do well to take to heart and apply its lesson. That is the point of it all.

Sandra

10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

I admit I have a little bit of a hard time reconciling this with the teaching of Jesus. How can we forgive our enemies on one hand and pray for their destruction on the other?

Should not the prayer be that God will show them mercy?

Just tossin' it out there.

I too have a hard time reconciling the evil that the word says God created. Satan is then the evil that God has created. I guess it is workless to strive with our maker. He is God, woe to me that asks why.

Then He loves me so much that He gave His only begotten to die in my place that I might be saved, a son of God, by Him that died in my place, The Son of God.

Isaiah 45:7-18 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts. Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God. Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols. But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Like Peter answered Jesus, Where can we go, what can we do, There is none other by whom salvation comes. I am glad that Christ is in me and His Love for our Father is pure and without doubt or why, in loving the Father through me and for me. I am helpless to love His way, He says His way is my way, The Life I know live, I live by the life of Christ and His Faith that is in me. This love in Christ that is now birthed in me is now my love for the Father that He can accept, by the love of the Son for the Father, "as He is in this world so am I".

Do I dare ask for revelation in this aspect of my not able to reconcile God being the creator of Good and evil?

Then the question; Where did evil come from?

Yet He tells me to ask, even commands me.

Woe is me, IN Christ: Phillip

Revelation 1: After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.

This morning as I read Revelation 7 my eyes kept going back to verse one. Suddenly I comprehended the reality of what these angels were doing and it started to sink into my mind and fed my imagination.

These angels held back the wind so it would not blow. Imagine no wind! None! None... How much of our lives is dependent on wind blowing? Pollination of flowers that produces fruit; wind turbines that produce electricity, waves of the sea...you name it.

Still...no wind. Ever been in a situation just before a storm hits and it gets real quiet, really quiet with no wind? Kind of eerie except we know why.

No wind. Hmmmm. Shaking my head...

Sandra

QUOTE:
"Should not the prayer be that God will show them mercy?
"

I know the dilemma.

Is it possible God is showing them mercy by making life so difficult hoping to force them into repentance by destroying their securities?

Loving and asking for justice...is it possible we have been snookered into a false sense of love which is not love at all? Just asking. What say?

Sandra

I don't know. Jesus said to bless those who curse you and pray for those who abuse you (Lk. 6:28). I always assumed that praying for them and blessing them does not mean praying for their destruction.

ADD: the verse in Rev. about the souls crying out for judgment of their murderers is very reminiscent of Psalm 94, which I happened to read this morning in my through the Bible in a year reading.

The psalmists including David used imprecatory prayers but this seems to belong in an OT as opposed to NT economy.

Sister Sandra...thank you so much for this thread!

I had a little time...and I went through reading all your posts and some others who posted. I was very much blessed in the Lord! Thanks again for your insights from the Lord!

TMK...I don't know if this helps any concerning the following verses:

Revelation 6:10-11 (KJV)
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Here is my thoughts...

Remember John is given a vision of the future...this could be a time following the day of grace or church age in which we are presently in now...

Notice this scripture:

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 (KJV)
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Notice the attitude of Jesus during the day of the Lord when He comes back to earth with His mighty angels...

So when we get to the 5th seal we are in the future and could be after the church age of grace...more than likely these Martyrs are part of the 1st half of the tribulation period...they do not sound like they are part of the church age during this time but after...

Blessings,
rbanks

Good point rbanks- I can see that line of reasoning.

Thanks for posting these verses from 2 Thess. Verse 6 sums it up well: "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you."

I am also thinking there is a verse in the OT prophets that tells us that God's people will agree with His punishments, judgments against the wicked. I looked briefly for it, but apparently I did not use the correct words. Anybody know what scripture I am referring to?

We also notice how Moses cooperated with God to bring about judgments against the Egyptians. I would personally cringe being in that position - maybe this is a reflection on my immaturity? Oh, BTW, Moses was 80 YO, maybe that helped? We do get more rigid as we age...

Sandra

I am stuck on the wind being held back. That is kind of the way it goes when I get a new insight - my mind meditates a long time on it and hard to get away from it.

I mentioned how it gets so quiet and still when a storm is approaching. It is much more pronounced during tornado weather. Then it is cloudy and still, not a leaf moving, just quiet and still. But this is a localized still.

This still, quiet, no wind - what would it be like when it occurs globally? Should this not be a warning to people there is something huge about to happen? Something that far exceeds anything ever seen by mankind? Before this we had tremendous earthquakes which are usually limited to mountainous areas, but wind as described here was global, mountains or plains, it was quiet. A huge storm of unprecedented proportions is about to be let loose.

Sandra

Perhaps it would be helpful to determine "why" the winds are being held back.

Why do you think the winds were held back? In nature it happens right before a storm/tornado, at least here in MS it does. When it is so still we know stormy weather is coming. Ya reckon the same principle holds? I do not read of an explanation in the scriptures why or maybe I missed it somewhere?

Sandra

Revelation 7:9

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

I suppose many of us have been told by an aggressive JW how only 144,000 will make it to heaven. But this verse informs us how many are before the throne - so many you could not count them....and you can count 144,000...

I like to keep this verse in mind when confronted by these people.

But just think about it - so many you cannot count!! Wow! How many is that??!! Sounds like it would take an eternity to even say "hello!" to everybody and this is not even taking time to visit, making an acquaintance.

Heaven sounds like a wonderful place...you know I love to look at pictures of the mansions owned by the super rich, how beautifully they are decorated. But I know one thing, heaven will be a lot more beautiful then the finest mansion any rich person can own - I like to have my imagination stretched...I just do not think we can fully comprehend how beautiful heaven is. I have heard of those who have gotten a glimpse of it and they say words fail to describe its beauty. Good enough for me!

Sandra

The "calm before the storm" idea makes sense; but perhaps the calm is to spare believers.

Revelation 7:9 - The lamb

The Lamb. I need to share something here, something so profound I have a difficult time to wrap my mind around it.

Jesus is depicted - so far- in Revelation as the Lamb that had been slain, "Lamb as it had been slain" (5:6). To understand this one has to go to the OT law where the Israelites were instructed in how to celebrate their deliverance from Egypt via the observance of the Passover.

Exodus 12:3, "Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for each household.(6) Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the members of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight."

The people were to take a perfect lamb on the tenth day into their house and keep it until the fourteenth day - 5 days when they they were to kill it, roast it and then eat it - all in the presence of the entire family or those who will partake of this Passover at this house.

Now, what is so difficult about this? Let me tell you why I think it is so hard to wrap my emotions around it.

When our five children were still at home my husband decided we would raise New Zealand rabbits to supplement the meat supply for our household. We raised the rabbits - and that is easy to do - and when they became adults, my husband butchered them, sent the meat to the house where I packaged the carcass for the freezer.

But the children!!! They simply HATED this killing process. The rabbits were cute, beautiful animals; they felt so sorry for these animals. Whenever I cooked meat for a meal they would always ask, "Mom, is this rabbit meat??" "Yes, it is." "I am NOT going to eat it" and none of them did. I was stuck with about 20 rabbits in the freezer and the only way to get rid of it is to fix it for carry-in meals at the church, not telling people what it was unless they asked. (They ate it and thought it was delicious.)

Well, this was rabbits, what about a lamb? As a child I had a pet lamb. I bottle fed it and it was like Mary's little lamb that followed her wherever it went. This lamb was my favorite pet as I was growing up. So cute, so sweet. I was sad when dad insisted it be sold. My children had a similar experience with a kid - dunno if they ever forgave their dad for selling the animal.

It is really hard, extremely difficult to eat the meat that came from an animal you loved, that was so cute. But God commanded it to be done. I can only guess why. Is it so people would get a glimpse of the awfulness of sin and the horrible penalty it requires for redemption?

It is dreadfully painful emotionally, mentally...but Jesus is depicted as a Lamb that was slain... Anyone want to expand on this?

Sandra

It makes me think of the parable that Nathan told David after his sin with Bathsheba.

In his sermon "Julius Caesar vs Jesus Christ- a study of two deaths" (I think this is the one) Art Katz graphically describes the sacrifice process and talks about how we have lost the seriousness of sin.

QUOTE:
" talks about how we have lost the seriousness of sin."

This is the sense I get as well. For me, if I could grasp this more fully I could understand it better.

Seeing a pet slaughtered, forcing to eat this meat, feeling the emotional pain in witnessing this process should give one a sense of how God endured this pain just to redeem mankind. And then Bro. Paul tells us if we sin willfully we crucify Him afresh. Now, how awful is that? I suspect if a body can begin to comprehend the seriousness of Jesus' physical pain that he endured on the cross we may take our walk with the LORD more seriously and not rely on a few words said "way back then..."

Sandra

Revelation 7:13-16 NASB

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?”

14 I said to him, "My lord, you know.” And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

16 "They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat;

As I looked at these verses, wondering if it is time to move on to the next chapter I was impressed by the suffering aspect of these redeemed.

These saints were those who survived great tribulation. They persisted, they did not bend, they did not bow. They were those that considered it an honor to suffer for the sake of Christ. The suffered in the worse sorts of ways, some to horrible to describe. (And I wonder how they were able to do so? Did the Holy Spirit intervene in their mind and body to enable them to do so?)

Suffering. We in the US know little to nothing of beatings, deprivation, imprisonment by the local authorities because of our faith. There are incidences of people's occupation destroyed because of their adherence to Biblical principles but we do not see any widespread persecution per se here - yet.

Then I got to wondering "who are our enemies? the people that would love to destroy our faith/obedience to Christ?" Are they always the secular, the atheist, the Islam terrorist? Or, are they people who have apostatized and work to persuade us to do likewise? Can we identify them? If so, how is one to relate to them?

Jesus tells us to love our enemies, give what they need or demand. But scripture also teaches one should separate himself from those that work to draw us away from Him.

Suffering. In the flesh. I suspect there is something in this type of suffering that has a way of cleansing one from the lusts of the flesh.
IPeter 4:1,2: "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin.

2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

And the reward for enduring?
1. Are before the throne of God
2. No hunger
3. No thirst
4. No heat.
5. God wipes the tears from their eyes. (Now, how wonderful would that be to have God take you into his arms and wipe your tears?)

Suffering for God's sake. I see God just admiring these people, loving them....

Sandra

Revelation 8:1,2: NASB
1 When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.

3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.

4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.

5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

I am getting into sharing my understanding of John's vision. Hope this won't create conflict, I just want to understand what he saw ... if this makes sense.

Now we are getting down to the last segment of the seals being opened. As I gathered from the text it appears the heavenly beings are very much aware of it being so, hence the silence.

(This silence reminds me of an orchestra. The director is standing in front of his players on the dais, hands raised, clutching his baton, eyes all on him awaiting the drop of them so they know when to sound...)

The Lamb broke the 7th seal..we must remember Jesus is opening the seals of a book and with each one comes a severe judgement upon the earth, each one increases in intensity and severity. In the 7th one it is like they are in a real showdown that will result in: "but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets." (10:7)

But before these angel sounds another angel inflicts judgement upon the earth as a result of the saints prayers. I see this fact repeated in Revelation. God inflicting punishment upon those who persecuted his children. And...it is severe, far more then we would have prescribed, I am sure. Yet, I believe it reflects the mercy of God, his justice for his children.

As I consider moderns attitude towards persistent rebellion among people who call themselves Christian, how do we regard them? Do we think they deserve God's judgments? Why and why not? Do we hate sin as much as God does? Doubt it because we think we love these people too much to suffer so.

Recently a discussion came up among my friends, "Should one shun a person?" I said, "Yes. If this person refuses to repent after being warned [multiple times] one should shun him." End of discussion. Sounds rough. But do we understand how vulnerable we are to the influences of people who strive to serve two masters? Who work to rope us into their whorl of deception?

Can we appreciate the justice of God in meting out punishments to evil doers?

I am challenged by this. Am glad I am not in charge...

Sandra

Revelation 8:7-12 NASB

7 The first sounded, and there came hail and fire, mixed with blood, and they were thrown to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

8 The second angel sounded, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea; and a third of the sea became blood,

9 and a third of the creatures which were in the sea and had life, died; and a third of the ships were destroyed.

10 The third angel sounded, and a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of waters.

11 The name of the star is called Wormwood; and a third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the waters, because they were made bitter.

12 The fourth angel sounded, and a third of the sun and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were struck, so that a third of them would be darkened and the day would not shine for a third of it, and the night in the same way.

Comment:

Many years ago - perhaps 25 - I read an article in "Science News" magazine, I think. In it was an article detailing or suggesting what a nuclear winter would be like. It made me sit up and take a notice. I went to the WORD and reread this chapter. If it had been a religious magazine I would have assumed the writer got his inspiration from this chapter but it was a totally secular magazine.

Are the events described here caused by the detonation of nuclear weapons upon the earth? I suggest God does not need nuclear weapons to bring about these calamities - he has all these angels - four of them to be exact (not many are there?!) to bring about this "nuclear winter".

What inspiration I get from this is how the critics of yore could say "no this is not possible" but then fast-forward to now and we say, "Oh, yes, it is" - using modern technology at the hands of trigger-happy men.

I do wonder at the time between each angels' sounding of his trumpet? Is it a mere week? a few days? years? Am not aware the text would indicate this - maybe I missed something.

In any case, God will initiate this and if He chooses to use men, this would have been in his plan from the beginning. If nuclear war happens it would not have taken God by surprise.

God is sovereign....

Sandra

Revelation 9:1-4 NASB:

The catastrophic events that are poured out on the earth is accelerating. We understand what John wrote in the preceding chapters and now here is the testimony of an angel: Revelation 8:13 NASB: "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!”. This must be bad!

Revelation 9:1-4. NASB
1 Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him.

2 He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit.

3 Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Now I am getting into interpretation, something that people have locked horns over in the past which I consider foolishness...yet I do think I am right! But am always open to insights from others because I am not convinced anyone understands perfectly everything Revelation speaks of. Since this is the case, I focus on understanding what John saw, seeing this vision in my mind, putting my imagination into gear with the result it being stretched. This results in experiencing a great sense of awe for God: I see his justice, his mercy at work which does have practical applications for the here and now.

Ok. Now to chapter nine verses one to four.

We see the locusts released from the bottomless pit. They were instructed to NOT hurt those who have the seal of God in their foreheads. They were selective in who they can inflict pain. I see in this portion that God's people will still be on the earth.

Some folks like to believe the church will be raptured before these judgement begin and personally, I would like to believe that, too, but I do not see the text supporting this.

I had a couple Bible School teachers who pointed out when the Israelites where enslaved in Egypt and God was sending the plagues upon the country, they experienced some of them as well. In time, God put a division between them and the native Egyptians, inflicting them but sparing the Israelties. So it will be be, too, in these end times judgments.

The question that we should be concerned about - and it is something we can do - is do we have God's seal upon us? Or, does one have to be a Jew to have this seal? In any case, are we spiritually prepared to suffer? Having many the natural things we look to to sustain life being damaged or destroyed?

Sandra

Revelation 9:3-6:

3 Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

5 And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.

6 And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them.

7 The appearance of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle; and on their heads appeared to be crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.

8 They had hair like the hair of women, and their teeth were like the teeth of lions.

9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, of many horses rushing to battle.

10 They have tails like scorpions, and stings; and in their tails is their power to hurt men for five months.

11 They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.

Notice the description of these locusts:
1. Their origins: came out of the smoke that rolled out of the bottomless pit. 2

2. They were empowered like scorpions. (Never lived where there are scorpions but am told they are worse then annoying - their stings are very painful.)

3. They were told who and what to inflict - their targets were specific.

4. The duration and intensity of their function was limited: do not kill, torment only for 5 months, inflict only people who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads.

5. Pain was so severe men wished they could die, but could not.

6. Their appearance:
a. like horses prepared for battle
b. on their heads appeared to be crowns like gold
c. their faces were like the faces of men
d. had hair like the hair of women
e. their teeth were like the teeth of lions
f. had breastplates like breastplates of iron
g. the sound of their wings was like the sound of
chariots, of many horses rushing to battle
h. they have tails like scorpions, and stings
i. the angel of the abyss - Apollyon, meaning "the
destroyer" - was their king

Imagine these creatures! The text gives us a detailed description of them. Many theologians have speculated what these creatures are, going so far as to spiritualize it, bending reality to fit their preconceived ideas. Then you have people who work to match these description with modern war machinery: airplanes piloted by females; tanks, etc. The problem with the latter is that these weapons are designed to kill and will kill if its target is met.

In my understanding of these locusts it is that they are creatures made for this particular purpose, used by God, controlled by the devil, yet under God's limitations and authority.

I suspect the people would recognize these creatures as being powered by the devil...and I wonder if God is not using these locusts to demonstrate the awfulness of the devil?

Whatever these creatures are, I do not get from the text that they are something we are familiar with today. The text describes their origins, what they looked like and to me this is something we know nothing about except in our imagination fueled by this scripture.

God is very much in control.

Sandra

Revelation 9:13-21 NASB

13 Then the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

14 one saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”

15 And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind.

16 The number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.

17 And this is how I saw in the vision the horses and those who sat on them: the riders had breastplates the color of fire and of hyacinth and of brimstone; and the heads of the horses are like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths proceed fire and smoke and brimstone.

18 A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths.

19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents and have heads, and with them they do harm.

20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;

21 and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.

As I looked at this portion and wondered what inspiration I could share, I was amazed how the WORD open my eyes to see something I had never noticed before. The amazing thing is that this happens just about every time I study Revelation. No other book in the Bible is so mysterious but yet reveals its mysteries in piecemeal fashion. I love it - keeps my mind busy all day long meditating as I go about my work. And...I always end up being fully amazed. I love that.

I noticed there were four angels that were bound AT the River Euphrates. They were made to fulfill this task which they are about to accomplish. Note the location of these angels: River Euphrates. This is a physical place, a real one. This informs me that we will see an event that radiates from that area and that it is literal.

The job of these angels was to kill 1/3 of mankind. They used an army of 200,000,000 - now this is a huge army. Imagine it, if you can!

Notice the description of the army - go read the text...I am not aware of any army that matches this description, do you? So where did this army come from? What was their origins? Don't think they were humans that came from the River Euphrates area; were they demons? Angelic forces? Humans? You started out with four angels and ended up with a force of 200,000,000...where did they come from?

I could understand from verse 20 they targeted nations steeped in idolatry - people who worshiped demons, idols of gold, silver, brass, stone and wood. There is no other area on this planet where this kind of worship is as commonplace as the Asia area. This area composes of over a half of the world's population. Is this the area this plague is targeting? Don't know, but we do know God is working to destroy this idolatry, hoping people will repent. This plague is designed to prove their gods cannot see, hear or walk. But they refuse to repent, still.

What does it take to wake people up? Apparently, afflictions, distress have limited value but God is using this out of his mercy and love for people giving them an opportunity before the the final judgment is thrust upon them.

What does this portion teach you?

Sandra

Revelation 10:1-6 NASB

1 I saw another strong angel coming down out of heaven, clothed with a cloud; and the rainbow was upon his head, and his face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire;

2 and he had in his hand a little book which was open. He placed his right foot on the sea and his left on the land;

3 and he cried out with a loud voice, as when a lion roars; and when he had cried out, the seven peals of thunder uttered their voices.

4 When the seven peals of thunder had spoken, I was about to write; and I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Seal up the things which the seven peals of thunder have spoken and do not write them.”

5 Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven,

6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer,

Today I want to focus on this statement "WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT."

Jesus, God as the Creator is referred to many times in the Scriptures. This phrase identifies Him as the creator of the heavens, the earth and seas and everything in them. Everything. Get that? everything.

A designer of anything knows how things are to work when assembled as he designed it. Let something go wrong and he knows how to repair it. Except for one thing: he never made, created the raw materials used in the manufacture of its components. But God knows the components of everything in his creation because he made it. As such he is well qualified to do as He will , how and when. He is perfect in its execution, be it mercy or love or judgment. He owns it, he has the right to do as hge pleases.

How man can dispute all this is like setting themselves up as God and there ain't nobody that knows everything. No one.

The angel Honors God as the one who has all the ability and right to do all the things as he wills. It is vital to understand and Believe this as one considers the events that will follow.

Sandra

Revelation 10:6-11 NASB

6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer,

7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.

8 Then the voice which I heard from heaven, I heard again speaking with me, and saying, "Go, take the book which is open in the hand of the angel who stands on the sea and on the land.”

9 So I went to the angel, telling him to give me the little book. And he said to me, "Take it and eat it; it will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be sweet as honey.”

10 I took the little book out of the angel’s hand and ate it, and in my mouth it was sweet as honey; and when I had eaten it, my stomach was made bitter.

11 And they said to me, "You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.”

I find this portion in Revelation pivotal in comprehending, understanding the events as recorded here in Revelation.

In v. 7 the angel says "the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets." Seventh angel: the 6th angel had sounded, 9:13, and he was the sixth angel out of seven that were sounding during the opening of the 7th seal (8:1). It was as though we are seeing the beginning of a climax to the opening of these seven seals. In the text that follows we see the writer backtracking and sharing events that happen during this 7th seal/7th angel. "Then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets." v.7

In the succeeding verses we see the angel telling John to eat a book, that it would be sweet to taste but sickening to the stomach. I am understanding this metaphorically - this is not the first time this metaphor was used.

Is it not true that one can receive a WORD from the LORD, how it delights ones soul and spirit but once a person meditates on it, understands the implications of it, it is sickening - not that we reject it, but that it will cause division between friends, family, suffering for standing for TRUTH. Suffering is painful. As I view Revelation I find it utterly fascinating intellectually, spiritually but when I consider the judgments it forces one to cringe.

But we take life one day at a time, not worrying about the future knowing God is in control. And that is the message we get in 10:6. In the mean time we must learn to trust him when glitches come our way that threatens to unravel our comfort.

(Mind if I insert a personal experience we are in right now? My husband and I grow tomatoes hydroponically - this is our livelihood. Would you know the seller sent us tomato seed that produces yellow tomatoes but we did not know they were yellow until they started ripening, wrong seed in the wrong package. And there is virtually no market for them and we are throwing hundreds of pounds away because there are no buyers...and bills have to be paid. But God knows all about it. Why he allowed it, I have no idea. Suffering? is this a dry run of what is to come?)

Sandra

Thank-you, Blaine, for your encouraging words.

We have been encouraged to involve an attorney in this matter but we do not feel comfortable with that. If we do and they would not be forthcoming, we would be forced to sue and you know what Jesus said about that - and this did not take God by surprise, either. Still, it is challenging to the limit and do wonder what God is leading us to do. We are not panicking, but do have a lot of questions.

God bless.

Sandra

Revelation 11

1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, "Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.

2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.

3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.

6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.

7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

9 Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.

10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

11 But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.

12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here.” Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.

13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

I find this chapter fascinating. You have these two witnesses preaching - who were functioning before the throne as the olive trees and lamp stands before their appearance on earth. They preach for 3 1/2 years, spit out fire from their mouths, killing people; imposing drought; turning water into blood and every kind of plague they pleased! Wow! Think about that! Dunno of any modern day preacher that would even want to do that (although I suspect Paul Washer might if he could, dunno) - they are too kind and merciful!

Then the beast is released from the abyss and kills them! A body thinks that fellows with this much power could not be killed but they were. Apparently, people were so glad to see them dead they prohibited the bodies from being buried; evoked celebrations by sending gifts to each other. Then...then on the third day they resurrected! Yes! And scared the whooies out of people!

A voice from heaven calls out to them to come on up and they did - people saw it which was followed by an earthquake, killing 7000 people. And it says "the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven." So far in this narrative we do not read of this response to any kind of judgment, calamity imposed upon the people. Makes one wonder why the difference? I do not know and barely can even speculate. However, as I meditate on this prophecy I am filled with awe....I love to visualize the shock and amazement when they see these dead men resurrect and rise to heaven. Kind of amuses me. God demonstrated in a powerful way that he is bigger then their rebellion and their god. YES!

Sandra

Rabbit trail....

In the woe mentioned in 11:6 - the drought imposed by these prophets, I am also aware that God had promised the Israelites in the OT that if they obeyed him, there would be rain but if not, drought would follow.

Today, Israel is considered a desert country. Visitors there tell me the only green in the countryside is thus because of irrigation. When Joshua led the people in to Canaan it was described as a land flowing with milk and honey; there are other reports of crops being grown in the countryside during the time of the OT.

I do not know how long Israel was considered a desert country. If it has been thus for hundreds of years what impact would lack of rain have on Israel if it already is in drought? Or, maybe I am muddying the waters..?

Sandra

Revelation 11:15-19 NASB

5 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”

16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,

17 saying,"We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.

18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

It appears to me in this portion we see the end close, coming to a climax (verse 18). Today I want to focus on the Temple.

The role of the Temple as recorded here has always stumped me. It makes no sense to me. I understand the purpose of the tabernacle and the temple as recorded in the OT; the offerings and sacrifices. I also understand the purpose was to remind people of their sin and the suffering it inflicted onto other creatures and themselves. I get that. I also know these sacrifices point to Jesus and his role in redemption. I understand that. But was it not fulfilled in Jesus life - his death and resurrection? These things were all symbolic - the tabernacle/temple sacrifices - of the real thing, or maybe they had practical value but we are not aware of it?

In the NT we are given symbols that need to be observed, obeyed. They have no practical value, none that I am aware of or maybe they do but we are ignorant of it? . For example, the communion cup: we take so little of the juice it has little nutritional value. But we do it anyways because Jesus said to do it.

Symbols point to a deeper reality but do we always understand it? No. Do we not observe it because of our lack of understanding? Some do and others do it anyways.

In any case, the role of this temple in heaven escapes my understanding other then that it is there. In verse one it appears as though it is in Jerusalem but in verse 19 it is in heaven. Makes no sense to me. Mystery to me. But it will not deter me from my pursuit of the study of Revelation, or the rest of the scripture for that matter. Sometimes there are things that do not make sense, are mysterious but we believe, do and obey and what makes no sense now will eventually. So it is with my understanding of this temple.

Sandra

Revelation 12:1-6 NASB

1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.

4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

The scene changes. Now the text uses terms like "sign", "wonder" to describe an event that John saw. As I understand this signs are terms used allegorically to describe a real event. In this scripture we see a woman,stars, sun, dragon, wilderness, God.

Many scholars have written a lot to inform the reader what these symbols are representative of but today I want to make this more personal. There is a powerful lesson here for us today where we live and function and as we deal with satan.

A woman, about to give birth is very vulnerable to whatever is out there. She is totally focused on giving birth and absolutely nothing else. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Period. Birthing is painful and she is pushing, working to deliver this child her body is working to expel. A woman birthing a child needs help. Females have been caught in situations where they were alone and had to fend for themselves, but this is not the norm, assistance is helpful and deeply appreciated.

Ok, here you have a woman giving birth and there looms nearby a dragon who eagerly awaits this birth so he can eat this baby! Lord, have mercy! What kind of kindness is this???!! And the dragon is fearsome, indeed: he has seven heads, ten horns, his tail if humongous - strong enough to sweep away a third of the stars and throwing them onto the earth! Fearsome, extremely so. Imagine it if you can, being this woman giving birth with a fearsome creature like this watching her very closely. Yikes!

But the text says the child was caught up to heaven and then the woman fled to a place in the wilderness that was prepared for her by God. Ah....how sweet of God!And there God nourished her.

I see in this allegory the Believer, the child of God who is confronted by the dragon, satan. He is every bit as fearful as the one described here although we cannot see him we know he is fearsome, indeed - just look around and you can see the evidence of it.

The Believer is very vulnerable, like the woman giving birth. After giving birth she fled. She made the decision to run and she outran the dragon - amazing.

We encounter the devil all the time. When these encounters get severe, threatening our well-being we must make the first effort - decision, to run and God will give one the strength to run to a place of security in Him, one that He has prepared for his children. There is safety and security. However, as we read further in this chapter, we learn the dragon still pursued the woman and so it is with life, walking with God, the devil keeps pursuing us until the end - and there will come an end, Praise the LORD!

Sandra

Revelation 12:7-17 NASB

7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,

8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

11 "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

12 "For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.

14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.

16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.

17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Today I want to focus on this dragon, satan. To identify the woman and when all these events occurred as shared in this passage requires more then I care to get into here, but would love to see someone else start a thread dealing with this question.

As I look at this dragon, who he is, his methods I am well aware of the danger one can get into when focusing too much on satan. A Mennonite evangelist, Lavern Swartz said many years ago he refuses to preach a sermon anymore about the devil because of the spiritual repercussions of doing so. We don't ignore his reality, but we can become too fascinated with him. How to become aware of his modus operanti and still stay focused on the LORD Jesus becomes challenging.

Notice a few things about this dragon:
1. He lived in heaven at one time.
2. Made war with Michael and his angels.
3. Michael and his angels defeated the dragon
4. The dragon was ousted from heaven.
5. The dragon and his angels were thrown onto the earth.
6. This dragon is identified as satan.
7. Satan is a deceiver.
8. He is an accuser - accuses people before God day and night.
9. He persecutes any who cooperates with God in His
scheme for life.
10. He persecutes any who keep the commandments of God
and hold to the testimony of Jesus Christ.
11. He uses nature to persecute the Believer.

Satan is a dreadful foe. He has forces at his disposal to enhance his chances of winning. With all these forces arrayed against a person, how can one ever hope to win?

I find verse 10 interesting. It says that because the devil is thrown down salvation has come: ""Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come."

The key to spiritual survival, overcoming is to know your weapons and they are close by:
1. Because of the blood of the Lamb
2. Because of the word of their testimony
3. They did not love their life even when faced with death.

These are our weapons. One does not have to run hither and yon or pay money for them: it requires a simple surrender to the LORDship of Jesus Christ who will give us the weapons to successfully fight this dragon. This includes a good understanding of the Blood of Jesus Christ in the role of redemption. One can never minimize its importance. When this reality becomes a part of who we are death will lose its sting because we know the LORD Jesus awaits us on the other side.

It is imperative we are well suited up to fight this battle because of the forces the dragon will utilize in his final push to overcome the LAMB. There is no room or time to get lax, we must always be on guard.

Sandra

One thing we know for sure is that the "casting down" occurred after the crucifixion because the blood of the lamb is what overcame him. I relate this to what Jesus said (prophetically) that he saw satan fall like lightning.

In my view this is the only passage that lends any support to the idea that satan is a fallen angel and it is not even certain that these verses say that.

Todd, I notice this, too, how the weapons of defense were contingent upon the shed blood of Jesus.

In Isaiah 14 were read how "the son of the morning" was "fallen from heaven". Scholars are divided on the identify of this being. In my understanding of prophecy it can have dual meanings and that is the way I would understand this.

Then you have in Job where satan appeared before God, conferred with Him about Job. It is apparent that satan did have personal access to God in the OT. When he was absolutely banished from the heaven, I am not sure. What do you think?

Sandra

Today I want to focus a bit more on the destructive nature of satan, the dragon.

Before his fall I had the impression he was a beautiful angel, a very intelligent one, leader of the music in heaven. He was one fine angel. But...and therein lies the problem, the 'but'.

Lucifer wanted to have the preeminence in heaven and therein lies the problem. Does it not always create a problem when people strife to have the preeminence in society, in the church, in families? Why not be content to be a servant? Actually, having a servant mindset will free you from a lot of responsibility as to the outcome of your obedience - the outcome rests upon the one in charge.

Ok, need to get back on topic.

Satan is so destructive; it is his nature: conflict is at the core of his modus operandi. Destroy what is beautiful, awesome. He will work to replace it but at the expense of destroying God's beauty, His will, silencing with violence those who dare to oppose.

The dragon is ugly, destructive...is it not kind of amazing how a creature so talented, so well thought of can fall so far, so low? Works this way with people, too, does it not? Unless we stay close to the LORD Jesus we can also fall far away from God and take on the nature of the dragon.

Sandra

Hi Sandra-

I appreciate this thread.

In regard to satans origins and fall, scripture is exceedingly, and I mean exceedingly scant with info. The Isaiah passsge you reference and the Ezekiel passage often referenced specifically state who they are referring to. Anything else is simply being imported into the text including the idea of a dual fulfillment.

As to the rev 12 passage about him being cast out, I would say the war in heaven occurs during Jesus' earthly ministry and the defeat takes place after the cross.

The idea of satan at one time being the most beautiful angel and the head of heavens worship band is entirely speculative with the only support based on poetic language describing specifically named historical persons.

Of course that is only my own opinion!

Revelation 13:1-10 NASB

1 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names.

2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.

3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;

4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?”

5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.

10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

In looking at this scripture, studying it more, searching out answers to questions that arose I am becoming more convinced then ever that a working knowledge of this book will go a long ways to protect one from deception.

Many years ago I heard a pacifist speaker declare that the role of the church is to be involved in political peacemaking via diplomacy - it can and would happen if peace-loving people would apply themselves!!! At the time when I heard this I was a young woman and you do not challenge one who is old enough to be your mom, and a well educated one at that but I saw red flags, Praise the LORD for that.

Let us take a look what the text teaches us.

A beast arises from the sea having ten horns and seven heads! And..the dragon - the devil - empowers him.

The dragon gave this beast:
1. His power
2. His throne
3. His authority.

The beast:
1. spoke arrogant words
2. Spoke blasphemies against God, his temple/those who dwell in heaven.
3. Warred against the saints
4. Had authority over people of all tribes, nations and tongues.
5. But his rule was limited in time - not indefinite.

In the past many scholars have speculated about the identity of these heads. History is rife with despotic rulers that would well fit the description given here. Every time a ruler is given to murdering people one wonders whether he is one of these heads.

I got curious: who and how many rulers since Revelation was recorded would fit this description? I found a list on the web of the world's 25 greatest despotic rulers. I discovered two things: one - the rulers I thought would be considered despotic were not even listed: Genghis Khan and Diocletian. The second fact was that most of the despotic rulers listed were active during the 20th century!

Well....! What does this tell me? It informs me things are getting worse and worse and there is no hope of any relenting until Jesus makes a physical return. Things will NOT get any better and no amount of any political diplomacy by any church will bring about peace among nations.

What can Believers expect? Persecution. Is it limited? Yes. Some are destined to be killed, others are destined to be held captive. And those that survive? Not so sure but what death would be a welcome release from the stress inflicted upon Believers. Believers are called to faithfulness and therein lies the reward. To teach otherwise is to undermine whatever faith a weak brother or sister may have. Challenging, is it not?

Bro. Richard Wurmbrand said how they used to take young Christians to the zoo, show them the animals and warn them that if they follow the LORD Jesus they may well be thrown to the lions. Very wise...

Sandra

QUOTE:

"Of course that is only my own opinion!"

I am not so sure one can study eschatology without forming opinions or at least form some theories. In doing so one is spurred on to study more to either affirm your theory or disprove it.

I suspect the Holy Spirit loves this interest, keeping your quest for truth alive, active. In the process of this searching one gains new insights - never ending and this is so inspiring, I think. When people share their insights it may provide another with the connecting link in their pursuit to connect the dots that defied connecting.

Sandra

3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;

12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.

I want to comment on this head that had suffered a fatal would but was healed and came back more powerful then ever.

I do not profess to know who, what this head is, what government it represents. But I do know what I have witnessed in my 70 years of life here on planet earth.

There have been power brokers who have come along, worked to become forces to be reckoned with. As a child, young girl, I recall people being scared of the National Council of Churches and the World Council of Churches that worked to get all churches to unite, not all necessarily Christian. Many concerned pastors spoke out against it and in time it no longer became a force to be reckoned with. Not sure if they still exist...

Then there is Marxism or communism. I am told they came close to taking over the USA back in the 1930s but it did not happen. Then there was the civil rights movement that was energized by the commies that struck fear in the hearts and minds of those of us who lived in the south; and then the cold war with the USSR. The communists were taking over countries right and left. This created a lot of fear. While this threat is not as overt today it could be said it is more covert. The WCC, the Communists all have their origins in recent history - they arose and fell - kind of. Then there is an another force that today is a real threat to world peace: Islam.

It was not all that long ago missionaries to the Muslim world were not successful in winning people to the LORD. No go. Muslims lived, had their own governments and lived quietly. But it was not always so. At one point in history they were a powerful force to be reckoned with. Today they kill Believers, rape the women, inflicting atrocities unimaginable upon people. Are they the people this scripture describes? I do not know, but do know I have witnessed the rise and dying and resurrecting of powerful entities that threaten Believers' well-being.

As I ponder these powerful philosophies I become aware we must always be on the alert to NOT put our trust in any organization that promises ease of life. We also notice the means they use to defuse objections - by the use of miracles. Miracles do not give validity to the source that empowers a group or individual. In my heart I must guard my attitude towards miracles - know God can and does perform them but also know the devil can imitate God, too. Therein lies the need for discernment.

Sandra

Revelation 13:16-18 NASB
16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,

17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

18 ere is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

If it were not so serious it would be laughable but I am not so sure that the question of the identify of this beast has united most people of differing views on eschatology. Who is it that goes by the name/number of 666? Speculation have been rife for years on his identity.

In many places governments have restricted people from buying/selling unless they have a certain license, permit to do so. An argument can be made this refers to merchants and not private exchange of goods - buying and selling.

Believers in the past have been reluctant to take a Social Security number for the very reasons as noted here. But the reality is that currently this is a number that will not enhance your ability of buying or selling.

But what about the chip some are having implanted under your skin with your personal info? Many are skeptical of it and for good reasons. However, it requires an electronic reader to access this info. While I have serious issues with this I suspect the mark of the beast as recorded here is far more sinister.

I suspect it will be a mark that can be read without any electronic reader, scanner; regardless, which it is - or maybe it will be both - I see God using our doubts, cautions as a means to wean us from dependency upon the marketplace for our physical well-being because the day will come that unless you have this mark you cannot buy or sell if you do not have it. Then..how will one live? This is the issue. But if we are destined to die, be killed so it will be.

Scripture teaches us that life will be much rougher then it has ever been so we need to beware of false teachers who promise a person a life of ease if we embrace their theology. Perhaps this is the most important lesson one can learn from this passage, but always being aware that the day will come when a person will be identified as 666.

Sandra

Do you believe acceptance of this "mark" will be accompanied by an outright renunciation of Christ? If not, how could it affect ones salvation?

If not accompanied by a renunciation, how can we be sure if the mark is being employed (if it is a literal future mark- and that is a staggeringly huge "if.").

In Rome a person could deny Christ and declare Caesar as lord to avoid martyrdom. If this mark is a literal and future mark (again, a huge if) I think something similar would be in play.

In other words, I don't think mere conveniences or security measures (such as chip credit cards or even skin implants) are in view w/o some renunciation of Christ or declaration of AC as lord(if literal future AC).

Personally I believe the talk of the mark is entirely spiritual and conveys the idea of spiritual loyalty. A person is either marked by Christ or marked by the world system.

Todd,

It is my opinion this mark is both - literal and spiritual, preceded by the spiritual.

In the early church when one renounced faith in Jesus Christ to save his hide, he was rarely 'forgiven' by his brotherhood.

I suspect an outright renunciation of faith in Jesus is required before acceptance of this mark because later we read of the Redeemed and one of their characteristics was that they did not take on the mark of this beast.

It is scary when one thinks of it: how is one to clothe and feed himself and his family if one cannot buy or sell? I suspect it is easier for me at this point in life to consider it of less consequence since we are a tad bit old; the alternative spooks me much: life eternally lived in hell.

My understanding? What say?

Sandra

Revelation 14:1-5 NASB

1 Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps.

3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.

4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

5 And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

OH! I love this, don't you?? Imagine with your imagination what John is describing here: a choir of 144,000 people singing accompanied by an orchestra that sounded like many waters, 'thunder' (percussion?), and harpists (strings)!! Wow! And they sang before the throne, the elders and the four living creatures. The song was an original which only they could sing!! WOW! Imagine the beauty of sound accompanied by joy and delight. How beautiful this is.

Love it, don't you?

I find it very interesting that throughout this book the LORD reveals to John a bit of the glories of heaven, being in the presence of the angels, etc., and then contrasts this with the characteristics of the devil - conflict, deprivation, who promises nothing eternally that satisfies. The contrast is stark like light and darkness which it truly is.

I noticed one more thing about these 144,000: it says there was no lie found in their mouth. Hmmmm.... In recent times I have become aware that lying is likely the most common sin among Christian professing people and engaged in with little impunity - it has become socially acceptable. It says no lie was found in their mouths. Amazing.

And this is not all: they were chaste, morally pure. One can debate whether these were singles who were chaste, never married, but to be married and being intimate with your spouse does not make one impure, does it? To be intimate with your spouse is a command given by God to Adam and Eve and therefore it is not sin, but pure. In any case, I suspect none of us will be numbered with these 144,000 because they were identified as being "purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb."

It may be these 144,000 will be the elite choir that sings for those who surround the throne. Regardless, I do not doubt it is exquisite.

Sandra

Revelation 14:6-7 NASB

6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;

7 and he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

I find this fascinating - in the middle of all the woes God will inflict upon the world there is this act of mercy, compassion initiated, carried out, empowered by angels to get the message of salvation out to the people - to every tongue, tribe and nation.

I am in no position to say where we are in the timetable of the last days, but I have become aware of people coming to the LORD without any human intervention in recent years. Years ago we never heard of incidents anything close like what we are hearing today: people who have never heard the gospel, who have never met a missionary have experienced a visitation by the LORD Jesus and have come to him. If we did it was a rare situation - like Sammy Morris or Jayapradha Bandela. It used to be considered almost a waste of time to send missionaries to the muslim peoples but today we are hearing of many coming to the LORD via dreams.

In any case, these verse prove to me how God is working hard to make sure the message of salvation is shared to all peoples, even if he has to use angels to get the job done.. This should silence critics (although I doubt it will) who declare God is unjust to send people to hell: "what about all those who never heard of Jesus?" they say. I say God knows who will repent and will make sure they will have the opportunity to do so. We also know many have the opportunity but refuse to do so.

Anyhow, I find these verse encouraging in how it demonstrates the love and compassion of the LORD for all of mankind.

Sandra

NOTE: I mentioned Sammy Morris. "Sammy Morris" by A.R.Evans is a wonderful read. It was published in 1958 by Zondervan. It will thrill your soul. My husband was given this book as a young boy and I have since purchased other copies through ebay.

Quote: "I say God knows who will repent and will make sure they will have the opportunity to do so. "

Not to split hairs too fine- but if God knows who will repent doesn't that mean they will repent?

QUOTE:
"Not to split hairs too fine- but if God knows who will repent doesn't that mean they will repent?"

Yes. I think God will provide for them the opportunity so they can do so. It still requires an act, decision of the will. There are many out there who have heard and made the decision to reject the Gospel and God knows who they are.

When I was seeing clients at the crises pregnancy center we saw all kinds of people with all kinds of sins, difficulties. Many times it seemed as though we were talking to a brick wall which exasperated us. Then I started praying that God would only bring in the people He was working with. And would you know? that made ALL the difference in the world? It did not enhance the stats the center like to put out for their supporters to see how successful we were in seeing an x number of clients. But we were successful in helping these people move up a notch in learning to listen to the Holy Spirit and this cannot be measured with numbers, stats geared to impress.

This has been my experience.

My understanding. Do you think otherwise?

Sandra

Revelation 14:8 NASB
8 And another angel, a second one, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who has made all the nations drink of the wine of the passion of her immorality.”

As I study Rev. 14 it seems to me the writer is giving a brief overview of the final events leading up to the "end". In the chapters following the writer backs up and describes in more detail about the events mentioned.

In the verse quoted we learn that Babylon has fallen (or will fall). Chapter 18 describes Babylon in greater detail and will look at that in the future.

I consider it significant that in this brief description of Babylon it mentions her immorality that it is defined by it.

As I observe modern day life and contrast it with life 50 years I see a rapid decline of morality, the rapid acceleration of the acceptance of immorality. Advertisers use images of immorality to attract attention to promote their product. As a consumer I decided early on to NOT buy any products that resort to such advertising. (Many years ago "Guess" jeans used it to promote their jeans - I decided then and there to never buy any pants for our boys with that logo. And I didn't either. It may not have made them any difference, but in no way will I use my money to support their philosophical bent.)

In Chapter 18 it tells the Believer to come out from her, so how does one do that? (running ahead of the text here...) Can we disassociate ourselves from powerful entities that are characterized by immorality - Like music, entertainment, clothing?

Babylon is going to FALL. It is doomed to failure. Since this is the case why are we so attracted to it? I suppose chapter 18 will teach us more on this, but it does come down to right were we live.

Sandra

Revelation 14:9-13 NASB

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” "Yes,” says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”

An in-depth study of Revelation does wonders to soothe ones' fear of the future. I love it! There is so much out there that spooks a thinking person, generating a lot of fear, knowing one can do next to nothing to cure what is going wrong. And....the scripture promises us that if one stands up to it it will kill ya. How comforting is that?

But verse 13 informs us that one who dies because of standing for Jesus is blessed. This should comfort the Believer that death is not to be feared at all.

It is in our nature to resist death - we do all manner of things to preserve life which I think is God-given as a means to preserve the species - all life forms seems to be wired to do such. Death is so final from which there is no return which does instill fear. Ecclesiastes tells us that God has put eternity in our hearts, hence the fear.

The promise of blessing is to "the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." (v.12.) These are the ones who will earn the blessing.

I have seen in my lifetime three people die and another one who thought she was dying. Two died very peaceably; another had a heart attack that killed him and they are very painful which was very evident. (Was not aware how painful they are until I witnessed it.) And the other - thought she was dying and she went into a panic and was making confessions, asking for forgiveness of those she had wronged. But there was still no peace. People had to talk peace to her. But she recovered. And there was no evidence of repentance for wrongs confessed earlier.

Deathbed confessions. This is my concern today. This person has been given the opportunity to repent now but has not, if anything things are worse. Scripture tells us the reward is to the faithful - this begins when the mind is rational and conscience decisions can and are being made with a lifestyle to prove it. To think one can say a few words with no heart change is the most misleading concept in theology, IMO. This should provoke one to repentence and obedience - walking with the LORD marked by a lifestyle that reflects this. The alternative is horrid, nothing comforting in it. None at all. (v.10, 11.)

Sandra

Isaiah 34:5-10 "For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment. The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, It is made overflowing with fatness, With the blood of lambs and goats, With the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah, And a great slaughter in the land of Edom. The wild oxen shall come down with them, And the young bulls with the mighty bulls; Their land shall be soaked with blood, And their dust saturated with fatness.” For it is the day of the Lord’s vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion. Its streams shall be turned into pitch, And its dust into brimstone; Its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever.

Revelation 14-:19-20 NASB
19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God.

20 And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

I find this intriguing.

We see in the previous verses judgement being meted out and in these two verses very interesting numbers given. I used to think these numbers were absurd, uncomprehending and perhaps they were just a figure of speech but doubted that because of the language used.

Lets do the math and see where we will come out at.

In Rev. 9:16: "The number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them." Who were these horsemen -humans or supernatural beings? I suggest they were human because they are called "horsemen". There were 200,000,000 of them. Are these the same horses as mentioned here in chapter 14?

Assuming they are, lets go on....

The horses were killed and their blood ran for 200 miles at the level of a horses'bridles. Now, that is a LOT of blood, I tell you. Cannot imagine anyone with a wild imagination think up something so absurd, or is it?

Ok, here we go: 200,000,000 horses all killed would =1,000,000 horses per mile. If they are all killed how wide a swath of blood would it take to be several feet deep?

Or, is this blood that ran so deep human blood?

Has anyone else figured this out?

Sandra

Good verses to share here.

We have been conditioned by modern teachers that God is all love and would do no violence, no wrath because it is not considered to be in keeping with moderns concept of love. Yet, we all know that there can be no love, mercy without wrath against sin.

Thanks for sharing...we do well to remember this concept runs deep in the scriptures.

Sandra

Revelation 15:2,3 NASB

2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.

3 And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,

As I read chapters 15 and 16 I am left in horrible awe at the pain, calamities inflicted upon mankind. But early on the angels shows John how the faithful are in the presence of the LORD while these plagues are in process. And these saints are praising the LORD for the judgments afflicted.

I perceive the saints have a perspective of the holiness of God, including his anger upon sin that we mortals still trapped in our fleshly bodies cannot comprehend.

As I considered the wrath of God upon the unrepentant I am reminded of what happens when a lonely ant - or a horde of them - will climb onto your foot/leg and bite you. I assume the reason for it is because he feels his well-being is threatened. When this happens my attention is immediately diverted from what I was doing and that ant will be killed - DEAD. If there is a mound nearby we will work to make it history asap. My husband will pour ant killer about it and in time most will die. I will use far more lethal means: pour gasoline on the mound, using a stick to puncture it making sure it penetrates the mound well, then pour a small trail of gas on the ground going 12 feet away and them light it with a match. Kills 'em dead! And I like to see them dead because these fire ants can kill or at the least inflict a lot of pain on man and beast.

As I consider my response to fire ants I cannot help but compare it to my reaction to evil about me - I am like the ant, puny, ignorant of the forces arrayed against me once my presence and will becomes known. God is to evil like I was to the fire ant colony. And I suspect the comparison is just as great. So, it must be in my best interest to trust God to initiate justice upon evil and I must get out of the way.

Sandra

Revelation 16:1-11 NASB

1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”

2 So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth; and it became a loathsome and malignant sore on the people who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped his image.

3 The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living thing in the sea died.

4 Then the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of waters; and they became blood.

5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying, "Righteous are You, who are and who were, O Holy One, because You judged these things;

6 for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it.”

7 And I heard the altar saying, "Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.”

8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun, and it was given to it to scorch men with fire.

9 Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.

10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,

11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.

There is one statement here in Revelation -which occurs several times- that troubles me much: "and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent." This happens after God sent them severe calamities. Why? How can people be so hard? In the OT when the Israelites apostatized God sent something to make life hard and difficult - he removed their securities. After a period of time they repented. (The Chronicles detail this fluctuation of repentance and falling away beautifully. Insightful read.)

As we notice in verses 9 and 11 these people had a sense of God - they blamed Him for their misery. Why on earth did they not acknowledge their helplessness and fall on the mercy of God for redemption? These judgments were designed to provoke men to repentance but it did not seem to work.

Today, I know many people who have repented when faced with chastisement. And...this is what Believers do when God disciplines his children. We repent - we acknowledge our failures, sins and with the Holy Spirit's empowerment it becomes history.

Scripture talks about hardness of hearts. I am thinking...what would happen when we encounter this mindset if one were to remind them of the danger of pursuing a rejection of God's voice and that it will result in a hardness of heart?

These people were not ignorant of God...OH!

Sandra

Something you said struck me: "These judgments were designed to provoke men to repentance but it did not seem to work."

Q: Why did cause choose judgments that would not work? How sure are you that they were designed to provoke men to repentance? How does this square with Rom. 2:4?

I have no answers, only questions.

Revelation 16:15 NASB

15 "Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”

I find this verse interesting. It is in the middle of a detailed account of the severe judgement God is inflicting upon the earth. Apparently, God's people still lived in the middle of these judgments - they were there but not of it.

As I look at life - prompted by this verse, I am reminded what Jesus says you are in the world but not of it. Hmmm...can one be so detached from it that the craziness will not rope us into its whorl? Or, when life hands you lemons, do we fret and stew? Believe it or not, but this study has helped me a LOT as we are dealing with serious setbacks. We have grown tomatoes commercially for years. What is one to do when a company sends you the wrong seed - it looks like what we have used in the past - only to find out it was the wrong seed - wrong seed in a mislabeled package. Here you have worked to produce something to sell that will earn you an income only to find out you have been working to produce something that will not sell. Lawsuit? some have encouraged it, but what does the Bible say about it? No go. Did this error take God by surprise? On the other hand, is my identity as a Believer characterized by me growing tomatoes? or, is it apart and beyond? Who am I?

These people who lived through these calamities were not characterized by the prevailing culture, but were separate and apart. Are we separate and apart of what life dishes out to us? Are we living above the terrible things that work to undermine our comfort, our faith? And...the text informs us one can live above these distracting situations. And....calls the faithful "Blessed".

Am thinking a lot about this.

Sandra

QUOTE:
"Q: Why did cause choose judgments that would not work? How sure are you that they were designed to provoke men to repentance? How does this square with Rom. 2:4?"

I checked out this verse and found these verses following:

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Todd, I am sure you were aware of these verses. What comments do you have on them?

Sandra

Revelation 16:18 NASB

18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty

As I ponder all the calamities as recorded here in Revelation that God will inflict upon mankind one is left with mixed emotions, thoughts, opinions. Is it possible?

Then.

Then I read about the swarm of earthquakes that are occurring in the Yellowstone National Park and the possibilities of a major eruption, the like man has not seen in years. Then....I wonder did those forecasters read Revelation? Now all these calamities do not seem so impossible....

Sandra

Quote: "Todd, I am sure you were aware of these verses. What comments do you have on them? "

You mentioned that you thought the harsh judgments were intended to bring men to repentance, but they did not repent. I am only raising the possibility that this was not the purpose of the judgments.

Jesus did not go around scourging people into repenting.

You are right - Jesus did not go around scourging people into repenting.

As I understand - from Bible history - God used afflictions to draw people back to him. The books of Judges, the Chronicles are filled with incidences of such. In Deuteronomy 28-30 God pronounces curses and blessing upon the Israelites based upon their love for Him. It can be argued - and rightly so - that that was OT and not NT. Yet we still see the country of Israel being desert and why is this so?

We live in tornado valley and close to the Gulf coast that experiences hurricanes. The people here say when things get bad weather-wise that God is judging us. Storms force people to think of God because they are faced with a power that is beyond man's control. The best think I can say about the deep south is that it still has a sense of God but it stops there. Holiness is not on most people's radar.

Why do you think God is inflicting severe judgments upon mankind as recorded in Revelation?

Sandra

Revelation 17:1,2 NASB

1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,

2 with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.

It would be so interesting to delve into how one would interpret these bowls of wrath and other judgments as recorded in Revelation...and I see others are discussing this which I consider interesting. But am trying to stay focused on the spiritual lessons found in this book because many find the imagery used in this book intimidating.

As I look at these two verses I noticed the role immorality plays in the relationship of the kings with each other and it says they were drunk with the wine of her immorality. It this a mere metaphor or is it literal?

When I was at CPC it was told us that illicit sex is the most addictive "drug". I googled this concept before coming on here, wondering what the experts are saying today. Am not sure whether it is the most addictive drug but it IS addictive - literally. "Illicit sexual outlets trigger a literal chemical dependency in the brain."

Addiction controls people, supersedes the will, requires outside support to break free from its hold. So, the scripture that teaches us that these "kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality" is literally true. Illicit sex makes one drunk.

How long did it take moderns to realize, to understand the addictive nature of illicit sex? Yet, scripture told us this 2000 years ago - up-to-date, is it not?

Sandra

//Why do you think God is inflicting severe judgments upon mankind as recorded in Revelation?//

To punish them?

QUOTE:
To punish them?

Yes.

To the unbeliever severe calamities are an punishment; to the Believer, chastisement, although one may be splitting hairs here. It seems as though the reactions are different to the same situation.

Someone has defined chastisement as a spanking God gives his children...don't like this but think it is true.

And then there are trials I do not consider chastisement. Not sure how one can differentiate between the two. In either case, the Believer is forced to throw himself upon the mercy of the LORD for His intervention. And the unBeliever - where does he go for a resolution?

What say?

Sandra

Am posting the entire chapter so one can get the context for my comment.

Revelation 17
1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,

2 with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality.”

3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of her immorality,

5 and on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, "BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.”

6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.

7 And the angel said to me, "Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

9 "Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,

10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.

11 "The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.

13"These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

14"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

15 And he said to me, "The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.

16 "And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.

17 "For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.

18 "The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

This harlot - who is she? The description is so dire, one I would hate to be used to describe me or any of my friends, for sure. Incredibly wicked; she works in cahoots with the beast and his buddies. How can a woman do such a dastardly thing? Has she lost all sense of conscience?

Who is she? The angel interprets these images and describes her in verse eighteen as "The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.” Great city. Hmmm. What is the great city?

In Revelation we find this expression used in chapter 11:8: "And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified." According to this verse this "great city" is identified as Jerusalem. Is the whore as describes in chapter 17 Jerusalem?

Personally, I do not want to believe this whore is Jerusalem but my emotion has to take a back seat and allow the facts to teach me - I have to accept them even if I do not like it. I do not want Jerusalem to be the whore: it is populated by God's chosen people, the Jews. Are we not to bless them, still? If this is true, what should my attitude be towards the country of Israel? I do not want to think about it but am forced to.

Is Jerusalem really wicked? Will one say, yes, but not as bad as____________. They have persecuted Christians in the past and do limit Christians today. They want the approval of Christians because it provides them with political and economic stability. But here is Revelation 17. What should be the Believers attitude towards Israel?

Given this scripture I am left believing that I need to keep my distance emotionally about Israel politically. The things we see today - I do not think I have the insight to tell our politicians how to deal with Israel because the issues are so complex - leaves me feeling that I need to get out of God's way accepting what He will do now and in the future and keep a check on my opinions about what is going on.

It is hard to accept that God's people would have the ability to apostatize so badly, be so wicked as this scripture describes this whore. Yet, all one has to do is take a serious look at modern life. I have been told that people who have had the most profound impact upon fashion, philosophy, politics, arts, religion have their roots in Christianity and in a small part Judaism. When I consider this reality I then know that it is very possible that Jerusalem is very wicked because she has crucified the Savior and killed his followers which will leave one open to greater deception.

So, I stand back, watch and wonder and ponder.

Sandra

Revelation 17:17 NASB

17 "For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.

Revelation 17 leaves me so perplexed, so sad - it does serious violence to my preconceived ideas of man's ability to do the right thing based on decency and logic. Life has proven man's ability to be horribly mean, cruel, completely lacking any common sense, decency - just plain ugly.

Then.

We see God is very much involved, allowing man to experience the end result of their rebellion - they ain't gonna win by a long shot. And...we need to know this when we feel so overwhelmed by the ugliness we are confronted with. This does bring comfort that God is using people, governments today to bring about his will, whatever that may be.

As I view God's ability to use ugliness to bring about beauty I am reminded of a friend of mine who is a professional fabric artist. In her sewing she will not discard any remnants because it just might be the color she needs to fashion a picture. The rest of us who sew will likely discard it. When I think of Julia I think of God using the impossible to create beauty.

You know what? the more I study Revelation the more I am convinced there is an era of time coming in which we know so little about even though the Bible's prophecies warn, talk about it, we have difficulty putting it all together. Then my mind goes to the OT era in which people had difficulty understanding the prophecies concerning Jesus coming. And...I understand them, their questions, their doubts. In spite of the questions God went ahead with his plan and comprehension came later. So it will be for us.

Yes! God is in control. Just like he did when he hardened Pharaoh's heart....

Sandra

Sandra,

You make me want to reread Revelation again! The promise of blessing to the reader is true.

Here are a few things that have "blessed" and adjusted me in the reading.

1. In the present and permeating false teaching of "love and tolerance," I saw in Revelation 2:20 that our Lord Jesus was intolerant. "But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel...she teaches and leads My bondservants astray...."

2. In Revelation 13:10 "Here is the perseverance and faith of the saints" as all who dwell upon the earth and whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life are worshipping the beast, and it is given to him to make war with the saints and overcome them.

In Revelation 14:12 "Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" as the hour of His judgment has come upon the worshippers of the beast and reception of his mark.
In these two scriptures I see the saints here during this time, along with the one you mentioned that is tucked in Revelation 16:15.

The greatest seeing for me has been the seeing of God's love FOR HIS SAINTS is in (behind, His motivation) His wrath. Revelation 16 the wrath of God is being poured out upon the men who had the mark and worshipped the beast. "I heard the angel of the waters say "Righteous art Thou, who art and who wast. O Holy One, because Thous didn't judge these things; for...FOR...they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and Thou hast given them blood to drink. They deserve it. And I heard the altar saying, "Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Thy judgments."

And in Revelation 17:6 "And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and the blood of the witnesses of Jesus." Then in Revelation 18:20 after the judgment of Babylon, "Rejoice over her, O heaven, AND YOU SAINTS AND APOSTLES AND PROPHETS because...BECAUSE...God has pronounced judgment FOR YOU against her." FOR YOU!!
And then in Revelation 19, "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BONDSERVANTS ON HER." And Hallelujahs and worship continue "for the Lord our God, the Almighty reigns!" It is His love for His saints behind His wrath!! He is always LOVE even in His wrath!

We know God's love is not humanism.

In Christ,
Mary

Amen! Mary.

Your point is the one I am seeing as well and am so blessed. You know, love and mercy without wrath is totally meaningless. It is this concept that is woven throughout all of scripture - God's anger, wrath against sin but he works to save us from his wrath - this is mercy and love in action - it is enough to leave you humbled and shaking your head in amazement.

I see a lot of theology in Revelation - the nature of God is well defined if we but allow it to teach us.

Glad this study is evoking an interest in the book. It remains among my favorite!

Sandra

Revelation 18:7 NASB

7 "To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, ‘I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning.’

Chapter 18 is an amazing chapter. I love to read it slowly savoring it as I go. Not sure why this is so - hope it does not mean I am being sadistic... Maybe it is that all these things that work to trap us into it whorl of false security is systematically being destroyed and somehow this feeds my satisfaction?

In any case, I find verse eight insightful, regardless what your view on eschatology. It informs one of the deceitfulness of wealth, affluence. "I sit as a queen and never see mourning." Wow! Talk about bragging! But you know this is what wealth does - it makes one feel like he is immune to suffering, does not need anything else - "I get what I want, when I want and how I want" - all serving ME - I am queen, after all, my own boss and am holden to no one!

Years ago preachers used to preach about the dangers of affluence but not anymore. What happened?

Sandra

Revelation 18 NASB

1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 "For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality.”

4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

5 for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

6 "Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her.

7 "To the degree that she glorified herself and lived sensuously, to the same degree give her torment and mourning; for she says in her heart, ‘I SIT as A QUEEN AND I AM NOT A WIDOW, and will never see mourning.’

8 "For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.

9 "And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning,

10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

11 "And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more””

12 cargoes of gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet, and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and bronze and iron and marble,

13 and cinnamon and spice and incense and perfume and frankincense and wine and olive oil and fine flour and wheat and cattle and sheep, and cargoes of horses and chariots and slaves and human lives.

14 "The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them.

15 "The merchants of these things, who became rich from her, will stand at a distance because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning,

16 saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls;

17 for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance,

18 and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’

19 "And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!’

20 "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her.”

21 Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.

22 "And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer;

23 and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery.

24 "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.”

COMMENT:

As I look at this chapter in its entirety, I feel a bit overwhelmed. Since this is the case, I printed the entire text so one can get the context of what it teaches me.

We see here in chapter eighteen a global economy going kaput - all initiated by God, something that cannot be averted. This economy impacted all goods - everything from the essential to the luxurious to the sinful - everything. All the markets went belly-up. And people cried, v.19.

The WORD is telling the saints to come out of her, v.4. The warning is so that we would not be effected by the plagues that will befall Babylon.

Is Babylon operational now? Some would say it is, saying it is NY plus other places, but I am not sure - I see the possibilities of it being other cities that serve as a hub for global commerce. In any case regardless who it is in modern times, we are told to get out of her. Hmmm....How is this possible?

We live in a highly developed agricultural,aquaculture community area. Much of it is sustained by federal subsidies. Very little manufacturing is done in our county. In the counties north of us the economy is driven by education and industries whose chief buyers are the government. Plus, a lot of folks are on public assistance. If the gov would stop all its funding in these three counties, it would be total chaos. Total. I am not sure how safe we would be. I may have plenty of food preserved but would it be safe when people no longer get food stamps or have an income to buy goods? Could we sell our products when people no longer have jobs? Very few businesses operate outside of any federal subsidies, very few.

If the economy goes kaput music will be silenced, craftsman will have no jobs (22). How can a person prepare himself for such total devastation in the economy, society?

I feel helpless when I consider how intertwined we are in the global economy. In our work, we are flying under the government's radar other then paying taxes but it is dependent upon others having an income, too.

I do not know the answer other then we are called to remove ourselves from Babylon - not sure what it all entails....what do you say?

I am confident that if the LORD tells us to remove ourselves from Babylon He will be there to provide for us.

Still, how can one remove himself fro Babylon, or does this have no practical application for us today?

Sandra

Revelation 18:8 NASB

8 "For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.

The morning as I read through this chapter wondering what will inspire me this verse grabbed me like it never has before: "God....is strong."

"God....is strong." So, what is new about that? Nothing. I knew this. But when one reads through this chapter a feeling of helplessness can overwhelm a body because a few against a horde of evil men is challenging, at best. We feel intimidated, powerless. But God is strong. He is stronger then any force or power that works to destroy us and God! And you know what? Allowing this reality to sink into the innermost parts of ones being is a great fear-killer! Yes!

Reminds me of this song:

There is more with us then be with them
We're on the winning side.
With banners unfurled
We'll tell the whole world
That Jesus is captain and Guide.
There's nothing to fear
When He is near
Though fierce the conflict may be.
We'll never give in
The fight against sin
With Jesus there's victory.

Sandra

Revelation 18:20 NASB

20 "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her.”

Revelation Chapter 18 is so gut wrenching...dunno exactly why unless it deals with issues we have experienced on a very small scale and I know the fun it evokes in its victims. But the situation here is so vast, so huge, so encompassing it boggles the mind.

Then I read in verse twenty: "Rejoice!" Well!!! Can I rejoice to see God inflict plagues upon Babylon? Why do I find this difficult?

I am reminded many times of the parable of the prodigal son who found himself feeding hogs, an unclean animal according to Jewish law. And he was so desperate he would have wanted to eat their feed as well. Once he experiences utter helplessness he returns to his father. Today when moderns see people experience the consequences of sinful choices they run to their aid to soften the pain instead of waiting until they are absolutely desperate and will run to God - first. Hard thing for moderns to do this.

We have been so conditioned to help the suffering around us, making them comfortable while they recover from sinful choices. But are we helping them? I am becoming aware one can easily hinder the work of the Holy Spirit with our benevolent mindset of working to fix things superficially without getting to the core issue.

Can I rejoice when God inflicts judgement upon sin? Why or why not?

Sandra

Revelation 20:9, 10

9 Then he said to me, "Write, ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.’” And he said to me, "These are true words of God.”

10 Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

COMMENT:
This phrase grabbed me: "For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

The context wherein this was said was after John was so overwhelmed with what was shown to him that he fell at the angel's feet to worship him.The angel rebuked him by informing John that he - the angel - is a servant of him (John) and all who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Angels are our servants. They serve the saints.

"For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” What is this?

As I reflect on what a testimony is it is the report of a witness of what happened. King David tells us in the Psalms how he loves God's testimonies - the stories of how God worked with people and the reaction to this working. David loved God's testimonies. (And I do, too!)

The testimony of Jesus would be the same: He shares what is, and how with little explanation to justify his decisions. To share Jesus testimony earns for us the service of the angels. And this sharing is the spirit of prophecy. We are called to prophecy. Among the gifts of the spirit this one is regarded as being the most important one. And it is accompanied by the support of the angels. Get that! Can I wrap my mind around this? Perhaps our appreciation of the support of angels would be enhanced if one were to do a study of them based on what the WORD says about them.

Sandra

by ginnyrose
We have been so conditioned to help the suffering around us, making them comfortable while they recover from sinful choices. But are we helping them? I am becoming aware one can easily hinder the work of the Holy Spirit with our benevolent mindset of working to fix things superficially without getting to the core issue.

Sadly, some family's will go without to put money on their child's (boyfriend's) books. I, too, have thought that in this one area their benevolent mindset hinder's the work of the Holy Spirit in the inmate.

Just another take on the issue.
God bless,
Lisa

Lisa,

At the Crises Pregnancy Center we had clients who felt it was our responsibility to support their babies with clothes, diapers because we were pro-life. They would get upset with us when we finally had to tell them "no". One girl went so far as to come for clean clothes for her child because she would never wash the ones we gave her! This is what we faced at the CPC.

Tough, is it not?

Sandra

Revelation 18:14 NASB

14 "The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them.

COMMENT:

I find the concept shared here not limited to the destruction of Babylon but for all of life: the luxurious and splendid things will and do pass away with time. This reality stares at me hard, it is boring hard into my consciousness.

I used to buy things thinking my children would benefit from them eventually, or maybe my grands would. Not so. And then I wrestle with the idea of the value of collecting for its own sake. Is it wrong? This is an issue I grapple with.

In any case, whatever we acquire will pass away. Be burned up - eventually. Reminds me of a story a visiting preacher told us:

"They had in their church a skilled craftsman who did fine, excellent work with wood, most of it used in the building of houses. This preacher walked with him through a house one day that displayed his fine work and as they did so he just shook his head - "Yup, someday this will all burn up!"

Only what is done for Jesus will last. "How can I parlay my interests into serving the LORD with it" becomes an interesting dilemma.

Sandra

Revelation 20:4-6 NASB

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

COMMENT:

This portion in Revelation has taught me so much: it has subdued the angst I experience when I read in the news about the beheading of Believers.

When I was a young woman 50 years ago, more or less, one rarely heard of beheadings: this was something you read about in history books, not something moderns did - it is too gruesome - moderns are more civilized, right? Today this method of execution has become the method of choice in the killing of Believers by the Muslims. How sadistic they must be! I remember helping mom butcher chickens when I was a child - the reaction of the bird's body after the head was cut off...does the human body respond like it, too? I suspect it does. If it does, I am convinced beyond the shadow of a doubt that people who promote and love this method of execution must be totally possessed by the devil, no two ways about it. If this is the case I can rejoice at the judgments God will mete out on those who work to destroy the Believers!

There is nothing, absolutely nothing that removes that angst of this procedure UNLESS it is the hope of eternal life that will follow after its completion. It is too gross for the natural mind to enjoy observing. If the human body reacts like a chickens' it would make me vomit to witness it...I promise.

The angel informs John the victims of beheadings are the ones who Jesus will resurrect and rule with him for a thousand years....AND! it labels them as being blessed! WOW! And the rest will not be resurrected until after the thousand years are completed. Well??!! You want to reign with Jesus for a thousand years? Have to be beheaded...going to stand in line for it?

As I consider the normal reaction to beheadings I can understand why Jesus would choose these victims to rule with him: he wants people who have the stamina to be decisive regardless of circumstances, who will not be swayed by whatever to do otherwise to rule with Him. Sounds simple to me, does it not to you?

But the angel calls these victims Blessed. How do you like that?

Since one has seen an acceleration of this procedure used in recent years in eliminating Christians from the area, I suspect Jesus is using the devil to populate the government he will set up when he returns to begin his thousand year reign.

I am glad all of this is under God's supervision and that all things will work together for good. Aren't you glad, too?

Sandra

I'll read this better and post when I get home late this evening. Save this till then!!! LOL

Revelation 20:12,13 NASB

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

COMMENT:

I suspect if one were to pick out twelve of the most basic doctrines in the WORD that has the greatest impact on how the Scripture is to be understood, these verses would be included in this list. Actually, the doctrine as state here is what drives the rest of the WORD: men will face judgment. Period. And what are we going to do about it? And will God help mankind along in this journey? That is what it is all about, is it not?

All will stand before the judgment seat and will be judged ACCORDING to their DEEDS. Our deeds, not my kinfolks' or friends' or enemies', but mine and mine only. No matter what your position is on faith/works we will be judged according to our deeds.

What does our deeds reflect? a life that is being changed from glory to glory by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit? Or, does it reflect a life that is lived to pleased me, myself and I alone and woe to anyone who does not share this esteem of me, myself and I?

We know that our best effort to please God is rooted in legalism: it focuses on human effort alone, judged by self-esteem. But a life that is lived in faith - obedience to the Holy Spirit - is what counts, is what changes us from carnal to glory to glory. This process can be sped along by worshiping the Creator who made all things beautiful and is in control of all things, seen and unseen. Unless we esteem our Creator highly we cannot please Him. He wants our admiration, our worship. Mankind is beholden to the object they worship and this controls our wants, desires and behavior.

How much do we worship?

Sandra

In regard to the judgment of the unsaved, what in your view is the purpose of the judgment of their deeds, i.e. To what end will this judgment of deeds be put?

Revelation 20:12 NASB

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

COMMENT:

I would like to focus on the books that were opened that are mentioned here.

In Revelation 4 and 5 we are given a view of the throne, the elders, the living creatures, angels and the LAMB that was slain. They had a problem - there was a book and the others were very reluctant to open it but all agreed the Lamb is worthy to open it.

In opening this sealed book it evoked a lot of judgments upon mankind, each seals' calamities worst then the ones preceding it. Eventually it tells us in chapter 10:7 and 15:1 that: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophet. And:Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished. (15:1)

My question always has been, "what book is this and what did it contain? Was it the books referred to here in chapter 20?" This question stumps me like none other in Revelation.

Then there is Eph. 1:4: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" - people chosen from the foundation of the world.... Did this book contain the names of the people that the Lamb was about to open?

Yet, I am well aware one cannot build a doctrine around a solitary verse....I know this verse would give credence to extreme Calvinism that man has no free-will in the choice of determining his eternal destiny... If this is so, why the challenges to repent, to grow in knowledge if all is predetermined...

IN any case I do not care to have a debate on the merits of Calvinism because it bores me stiff, but the question remains: were these the same books referred to in chapter 5? I suspect they may not be but cannot prove it.

What say, Todd? or anyone else?

Sandra

QUOTE:

"In regard to the judgment of the unsaved, what in your view is the purpose of the judgment of their deeds, i.e. To what end will this judgment of deeds be put?"

What good did these judgments accomplish? Good question. Revelation informs us it did not cause people to forsake sin, to repent, so what is the use? Good question.

Personally, I do not know where we are at in regard to the events stated here in this book, but do take lessons on the natural disasters and its effect on mankind. Natural disasters do cause man to think about God but am not aware it has evoked a great revival among its survivors. It does affirm to those who fear the LORD that man is NOT in control, there is a power that man cannot manipulate, or control.

What is your take on this, Todd?

QUOTE:
"To what end will this judgment of deeds be put?" I see in verse 15: "And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.' Pretty straight forward, is it not? The others? Chapters 21 and 22 detail those events. Now this is awesome, in my opinion.

Sandra

Hi Sandra-

I wasn't clear enough. When I said judgments I didn't mean the catastrophes- I was talking about God judging deeds.

Specifically in regard to the unsaved, what is the purpose in judging their deeds? Are not all unsaved cast into the lake of fire regardless of their deeds? It would seem the only deed of any importance is their refusal to turn to Christ.

QUOTE:

"Specifically in regard to the unsaved, what is the purpose in judging their deeds? Are not all unsaved cast into the lake of fire regardless of their deeds? It would seem the only deed of any importance is their refusal to turn to Christ."

You ask some pointed questions - but then attorneys are skilled in doing so, right?

I would say ones' deeds reveal what resides in the heart. Some folks say what one does is irrelevant but what is in the heart is all that matters. Seems to me this scripture is telling us that deeds and heart issues cannot be separated.

How do you understand it?

Sandra

I guess my real question is what God will do with the results of his "deeds review" of the unsaved. For example, person A was a dirty rotten God hater their whole life; person B was a child molestor; person C is a devout Jewish man who loves his family and is a model citizen, person D was a struggling 19 yr old single mother who was never churched growing up and struggled to survive in the ghetto.

God judges each persons deeds. But all four (some argue) will spend an eternity in the lake of fire. So why do their deeds matter?

Why do their deeds matter?

I suggest it is because it informs others what they are. You would not want heaven to be peopled with human Lucifers, would you? cannot imagine that. But is that not what would happen if the wicked never repented of their behaviors and would continue that in heaven? Imagine what mess that would be! It would be like earth all over again. LORD, have mercy! if that would be the case.

My understanding, what is yours?

Sandra

Revelation 21:1-4 NASB

1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

COMMENT:

I love this picture of God that we see described here. He is described as:

1.He will dwell among the people.

2.He will wipe EVERY tear from their eyes. (Like a mama cuddling her child when he gets an ouchie!)

3. No death...wow!

4. No mourning, crying or pain. (Got pain now? No more in heaven!)

5. He provided a place adorned for his people. Constructed with the finest, most costly materials imagined.

I see God depicted as a loving, sweet God who revels in the company of his children. How precious!

Since this is the case why would we want to do anything that would prevent you from getting there?

Sandra

//My understanding, what is yours?//

I think I have failed miserably in asking my question clearly.

My question pertains only to the unsaved who will be consigned to the lake of fire. It is indicated that the deeds of the unsaved will be reviewed before they are cast in. Why must their deeds be reviewed if they are all being cast into the same place? Do you think their deeds will have some effect on the judgment they receive?

QUOTE:

"Do you think their deeds will have some effect on the judgment they receive?"

I get it. Are there different degrees of punishments for sins committed?

There is one Scripture that suggests there may be, but one does not read of its concept anywhere else that I am aware of.

Luke 12:45-48 KJV

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

How far one can go with this idea and still be Biblical I do not know. I think this portion is talking about the ignorant, not the disobedient. Yet, I am well aware of people in utter darkness, utterly ignorant of anything about the Jehovah God who came to the LORD Jesus after He revealed himself to them supernaturally. I am of the opinion that the LORD Jesus knows who will respond to his call and will make that happen. Still, what about the ignorant? Not everything makes sense, does it.

What are your thoughts?

Sandra

Revelation 21:6-7 NASB

6 Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.

7 "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

COMMENT:

I notice the word 'thirst". Hmmmm....Is it not true that people thirst for a god to worship? You see multitudes worshiping idols of all kinds with the most common being SELF. And how well do they satisfy - Spiritually? Physically? Emotionally?

Jesus says he satisfies. True, this scripture is primarily speaking of the heavenly abode, but it begins here and will continue for all eternity. There it will be more satisfying then ever. How about that?!! And you will inherit these things because you are his son because God is your father! The beauty of heaven, the new Jerusalem - ahhhh! Can you imagine it? Try it and I suspect it will be more grand then that.

Can't get any better then that, can it?

These promises make this world look worse then ever, does it not - no conflicts there, no stupid fake news or even true news that make one wish you could use some millstone therapy....

Sandra

//What are your thoughts?//

I really don't know. Even if degrees of suffering are different they are still for eternity (if that view is correct) and therefore equal in that regard.

Plus, many as you know say that hell is "the absence of God."

If there are "degrees" of punishment in hell, does that mean some have less of an absence of God than others? That does not make sense at all.

Hello,

Revelation 21:1, ...and there is no longer any sea.

No more sea, no more life.

No people, no trees, no grass, no animals, nothing in the sea, because there is no longer any sea.

Earth will be just like all the other planets, which have no water.

There is water in heaven, but none in hell, why should there be?

There is no longer any sea.

Revelation 21:1 NASB
for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

Comment: my take is that the heavens and planets as we know it were all burned up - what the scripture is informing us is that all things are new (for us - dunno how long it took for God to get Jerusalem/heaven ready for his bride).

One can speculate about the existence of "sea" on earth. Some will say some major changes occurred in the earth's structure because of the flood and then shortly thereafter. Evolutionists would declare some radical changes as well albeit they would not attribute it to God or the flood.

But sea. Never thought a lot about it - I reckon it is a formidable part of the earth that is threatening and challenging - maybe that is why it is mentioned "there is no sea".

What are you thinking, Enid?

Sandra

Revelation 21:8 NASB

8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." NASB

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. KJV

8 "But to the timid, the unbelievers, the evil, the defiled, murderers, sorcerers, fornicators, idol worshipers and all liars: their part is in the burning Lake of Fire and Brimstone, which is the second death.” Aramaic Bible in Plain English

COMMENT:

I find this list of sins informative. Various translations/versions will interpret the original a tad bit differently but the root meanings remain the same.

I notice the word "fearfully" translated as cowardly and timid also. What makes a person timid? Fear. What makes a person act cowardly? Fear. And why so? Is because we are unsure of the consequences, lack of trust and faith? the word following is 'unbelieving'. Hmmmm...is there a progression, going from fear to unbelieving to whatever sin you choose? Is it not true that one has to destroy faith and trust before one can engage in rebellion? Destroy all belief in absolutes and what is left?

Brother James informs us in 2:10: "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." I have noticed that when one observes a sin in the life of a person the others are there as well - not as obvious, perhaps, but a hint of nevertheless. So....it is very dangerous to accommodate even a 'little' sin, if there is such.

As I look over this list of sins I notice "all liars" - not some but all. Lying. What provokes lies? Is it not fear? I have also concluded lying is perhaps the most common sin that bedevils mankind, Believers and unbelievers. People begin by not believing and end up liars...Makes sense,does it not?

And all will get to share hell. Quite a contrast to the New Jerusalem.

Sandra

I'm just thinking that, for me, scripture says what it says,
no more sea.

What I'm really getting at is that life would cease to be.

God bless.

The sea is gone while the earth is being recreated. There will be water when it's recreated. God is a fan of the oceans and seas.

Revelation 21:27 NASB

27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

COMMENT:

As I read through chapter 21, trying to visualize this new Jerusalem in all its magnificence and glory one comes upon verse 27 where it again mentions the kinds of people that will not get to enjoy the New Jerusalem.

"Nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying". Unclean, abomination and lying...

What would they mean by "unclean?" or, abomination? We know what lying is....Lying is mentioned often. Is it possible that people can convince themselves that God overlooks disobedience and because they have been saved way back then that behaviors committed since do not matter? If this would be true how would one reconcile these verses where it informs us who will NOT enter the new Jerusalem? Does lying cease to be lying if you had accepted Jesus as Savior way back then? Does the anger, malice, immorality cease to be such when indulged in with out repentence after you have become 'saved'? We know what lying is but what about the deliberate misinterpretation of scripture to accommodate popular culture - is this not lying when we refuse to call it for what it is?

Now, what does the writer refer to when the term "unclean" is used?

Sandra

"but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life; who are predestinated to eternal life; and though they are naturally, and in themselves defiled and sinful creatures, yet they are justified by the righteousness of Christ, and sanctified by his Spirit, and so are made meet and fit to enter this city; "

Gill's Commentary

Great thought Ginnyrose:

Consider:
1. Priests were scattered throughout the country, did not have a section of land like the other tribes.

2. They were the conscience in their community.

3. They were the intercessors before God for their people.

4. They lived under restrictions far more limited then the general population.

5. They were knowledgeable of diseases - could determine when one was unclean or healed of an infirmity.

6. They were to be pure and holy.

There may be others points one could list, but does this not sound like like a precursor to the Sermon on the Mount?

This is what Believers are called to. Sobering - especially more so when one studies the life, purpose of a priest in Jewish society.

Todd,

Maybe the thermostat is not turned as high...??? I do not know the answer. All I know is that I do not want to go there and I suspect all people who actually understand a bit the degree of horror would not either. What are your thoughts?

I have another question: can the spirit or soul of man be anniliated? Some people believe in anniliation for those going to hell. While I want to believe this to be true Scripture says otherwise so I am compelled to believe it. In defense of eternal punishment I got to wondering if the spirit can be killed.

Any thoughts anyone?

Sandra

PS: I am posting from my iPhone because we have been without internet since Tuesday- plan to have the connections restored on Tuesday. I do not care to use the phone to post, hence my absence.

//I have another question: can the spirit or soul of man be anniliated? Some people believe in anniliation for those going to hell. While I want to believe this to be true Scripture says otherwise so I am compelled to believe it. In defense of eternal punishment I got to wondering if the spirit can be killed.//

What about this scripture:

1 Timothy 6:15-16 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, ***who alone has immortality***, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

That is why the actual name of the annihilation view is "conditional immortality." This means God is able to grant immortality(eternal life) to those who repent and believe. Those who do not are not granted immortality(they failed to meet the conditions) can be snuffed out at the appropriate time.

Revelation 21:18-21 NASB

18 The material of the wall was jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass.

19 The foundation stones of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation stone was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald;

20 the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst.

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

COMMENT:

I look at these precious stones that are used in the wall's construction but ignorance blinds me to the magnificence of it. I checked it out online and as I did so, I was awed with the colors. I have seen gemstones but as I studied what this may have looked like, I am left in awe - a lot like seeing the Ark at Williansville, KY. Someone can tell you the Ark was so long, from here to that post and over there to here but to see this distance walled in is a totally different experience - totally magnificent. Absolutely. Totally. It leaves one speechless. This is the sense I get I get when I imagine what the New Jerusalem's' structure looks like.

Then I notice the walls were made of Jasper. This gemstones' color red occurs because of the presence of iron. Don't know if this has any significance - am not given to types and shadows like some - but when I read this I was reminded how Jesus shed his red blood because of the intrusion of the spear, thorns and nails (made of iron, I suppose). I wondered if this wall's colors has any significance ..

Then the gates are made of pearl. Pearls occur in oysters because of an injury where the body will heal over it and thus a pearl is formed.

We see the wall of the New Jerusalem walled in by the blood of Jesus and the only way to enter it is by the gates that symbolize the piercing of Jesus' body that was healed over.

Never noticed this before but think it is interesting; but more so the structure itself - this provides a lot of food for the imagination, keep it busy for a while to visualize it.

Sandra

PS: Our internet connection went kaput - hence my absence - but now we are up and running but we are leaving for the weekend to celebrate our 50 years of marriage (married 9-3-1967) with our children so may not get online until next week...will see. God bless.

Happy Anniversary! A great milestone to be sure.

Are you open to the the possibility that the New Jerusalem is not a literal cubed city?

QUOTE:

"This is what Believers are called to. Sobering - especially more so when one studies the life, purpose of a priest in Jewish society."

Exactly. This is why I love studying the OT law.

The OT law also teaches one so much about the the practical aspects of living as well. For example, body wastes were to be buried - one had to carry a tool to dig a hole where one could relieve himself and then cover up the deposit. Clean. Sanitary. Looks to me like the Jews were ahead of their time. Hey! in many countries this principle is not followed.

So much to learn from the OT law if one were just to dig...in digging one learns how many things we do as a matter of course but do not realize it.

Sandra

Revelation 21:1

1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

COMMENT:

As I reread chapter 21, thinking I have not exhausted it - and who can?- the concept of "all things new" grabbed my attention so I got to looking at this chapter and noted all the things that are new, things that operate differently then we are accustomed to, and the building materials used in the structure of the new city Jerusalem.

Consider:
1. Thde brilliance of the city Jerusalem, v.11, crystal-clear jasper.

2. The foundation stones consisted of gemstones found on earth also, but are scarce/rare. These stones are the foundation of a city that is 1500 miles square! Imagine THAT, if you can.

3.Its wall was 75 yards - thick? I suspect. If so, imagine the volumne of these gems that are used in the foundation!! Boggles the imagination, does it not?

4.The gates consisted of ONE pearl. The pearls we know of are small. Here you have large gates made of a pearl! (And did you know pearls result when an oyster is injured and it heals over? Amazing. Jesus was injured and it healed over and the only way into the city is by this injury that was healed over..)

5. The streets are made of transpaent gold. Now, I think if gold was that thin it would break, but it said the streets are made of it - and streets are made to handle traffic. Amazing! (A scoffer of one who downplayed the description here declared he thinks he would get tired walking on gold streets! He might be lucky just to have the privilege of walking on them.)

6. No need of a sun. Hmmm. We have a sun and its brightness prevents a body from gazing directly at it lest it damages the eyes. Light penetrates everything. Here it says the Lamb is the light - he penetrates everything there. Different....interesting.

7. No night. Can you imagine? Won't people get tired, needing a time of rest? Darkness forces people to rest. Maybe in heaven one would not get tired or maybe there will be no stress that will tire a body...

8. It also mentions the marriage supper of the Lamb, implying a meal to be consumed by the saints. I had to wonder about that - in chapter 22:2 it mentions fruit that implies will be eaten. Today when one eats there is waste - the body absorbs the food and the residue is eliminated via the digestive system. Under OT law body wastes were to be buried, was considered unclean. If a body eats in heaven how will the body eliminate the waste? In mulling over this question I concluded the body may be designed to absorb every component in the food prepared in which there will be no waste. Now, I think that would be very nice!

9. And nothing unclean, or abomination or lying will ever be there. YES! Love that. Filth, perverts, lying - not knowing who you can trust anymore - will NOT be there.

How well could you live with such perfection and beauty?

Sandra

Revelation 22: 8 NASB

8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9But he said to me, "Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.”

COMMENT:

Today I want to focus on angels.

Ever since I was a child and had heard of angels I was enthralled with angels, their ministry to the children of God. All throughout this book of Revelation we learn this revelation to John was given by an angel. The working of implementing future events was with the cooperation of angels fulfilling the jobs assigned to them.

Notice the humility as displayed here in verse eight:

1.Is a severent of John and the prophets
2.Is a servant of those who heed the Words of this book.
3. Does not accept worship but directs man to worship God.

WOW! and Well...!

So, if you are interested in being the recipients of the ministrations of angels you need to heed the words of this Book! Can't get any simiplier then that, can we.

When one does a study of the entire Bible focusing on the nature, the work of angels we read how this is absolutely true. I think if one were to do an indepth study on the ministry of angels it should work as a great motivator to be faithful in ones walk with the LORD Jesus. But it requires obedience. How many are willing to pay the pric?

Sandra

Revelation 22:11 NASB

11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”

COMMENT:

I find this verse a tad bit sad on the one hand and comforting on the other.

Sad: that people can be so hardened and when warned about the catastrophic events that are to occur it will not move them to repentence, having no fear of God in their heart and soul.

Comforting: Hang in there - a reward is coming. The reward will be awesome, it will far exceed ones expectations.

Knowing this is the reality, we should not be shocked when people refuse to hear and take heed. When we look at what happened in the Garden of Eden to people who physically saw God, communed with Him daily but still disobeyed why should we be surprised?

God is in control and we do well to not play God in these matters. He knows things we do not know and will work accordingly, thank the LORD!

Sandra

Revelation 22:17-21 NASB

17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come.” And let the one who hears say, "Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.

18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;

19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

COMMENT:

Verses 18-19 have a serious warning: that of adding to or subtracting from this book. The consequences are severe. Personally, I think one needs to be extremely careful in how we regard this final revelation of Jesus Christ sent by his Angel unto John. If we do not understand it, we must not discard it as irrelevant or ignore it but give it serious study, meditate on it. Casual perusal of the book won't cut it: it takes an open mind and a willingness to dig and meditate it about throughout the day when you have moments of idleness. There is great danger in resorting to other more 'learned' Bible scholars to interpret it for you. You will miss the joy of worshipping/admiring the awesomess of God which I suspect is the first step in gaining insight into this book. The details described herein far exceed what we imagine and so we are left gasping, asking why? If you persist you will learn and the basic point is, "REPENT, I am coming quickly." It promises ones' access to the water of Life without cost, if only you will "Come". How much simplier can it be? Miss that, you have missed it all.

In any case, life will not return to a Garden of Eden until the end. Don't let anyone fool you into believeing man can usher in the millenium; it can not be done with diplomacy, either. It will require a divine intervention at great cost to the natural, political world as we know it.

No doubt more could have been said, but am bring this to a close. Not sure if I will add any more in the next few weeks as we are leaving and be gone for a while - have to be back by Oct. 1. To access the web will require a trip to town where there is free wifi so I have no idea about the frequency of accessing the web.

God bless you all - this has been a growing experience for me in sharing insights into Revelation. Knowing how the Holy Spirit works I know he will give me more in time to come and then I will wonder how I missed it before. But that is ok - the book is alive like none other.

Sandra

Thanks Sandra I have enjoyed your insights.