The story is told of an Irishman..........

"The story is told of an Irishman who all of his life had been, as so many of his nation are, a member of the Roman Catholic church but some one had given him a New Testament and through reading it he had been brought to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. He had learned that a man may have eternal life in this world and know it, that he may have all his sins forgiven and be certain of it, that he need not go to any human intermediary but may go direct to the blessed Lord Himself to confess his sins and obtain forgiveness. The result of his study gave Patrick great joy and happiness. He did not know any one like minded with whom he could have Christian fellowship so when others went to the parish church, he remained at home poring over the sacred pages of his New Testament, a Book which he had never seen before but which now meant so much to him. Finally the parish priest missed his erstwhile faithful parishioner so he arranged to visit him. He came on a day when this happy convert was reading his New Testament and as the priest entered the room Patrick rose to meet him with the Book in his hand. "What book is that?” the priest asked.

And Patrick answered, "Well, sure and your Reverence, it’s the New Testament.”

"But Patrick don’t you know that that is not a Book for an ignorant man like you to be reading without instruction and help? You will be forming your own private judgment about things and making all kinds of mistakes and going off into some heresy.”

But Patrick said, "Well sure, I have just been reading here, and it’s the blessed apostle Peter says it, ‘As new born babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby’ (1 Peter 2:2), and sure, your Reverence, I have just been born again and I am a babe in Christ and it is the milk I’m thirsting after and I am reading the Word to get it.”

"That is very good, Patrick, but you need help and instruction, and the Almighty has appointed the clergy to be the milkmen; He has given them the knowledge of the truth and when you want instruction, you should come to the church and we will give it to you as you are able to bear it. You get to studying for yourself and you are sure to go wrong.”

But Patrick said, "Out there in the shed I have a cow and when I was sick some time ago, I had to hire a man to milk her and I soon found he was stealing half of the milk and filling the bucket with water, but when I got well, I discharged him and took to milking me own cow and now I am getting the rich cream. When I was depending upon you, it was milk and water stuff you were giving me, now, thank God, I am milking me own cow and it’s the cream of the Word I am getting.”

Excerpt from : Is Peter the Rock Upon Which the Church is Built?
By Dr. Harry A. Ironside | 1935

https://www.moodymedia.org/articles/peter-rock-upon-which-church-built/

LOL!

Take that, you hirelings and false prophets!

Agreed Greg,

As long as leaders do not move away from that teaching already delivered to us by the apostles and prophets and in accordance with the written Word of God (in context) we can and will certainly benefit from it.

Blessings,

"Another story is told of a little lad sitting on the curb in Johannesburg in South Africa, reading a New Testament when the priest passed by and, recognizing him as a child of a family belonging to his flock, said, "My boy, what is that book you are reading?”

"It is the New Testament, father,” he said.

"But that is not for an ignorant little boy like you to be reading.”

The lad replied, "Sure but I have a search warrant to read it.”

"A search warrant! Why, what do you mean?”

"It says here, ‘Search the Scriptures,’ and so I am after doing what I am told.”

How can any one say that Christians are not capable of reading the Word of God and getting the mind of the Lord when the Holy Spirit has been sent from heaven for the express purpose of opening the truth to those who honestly seek that truth and are prepared to walk according to it?

Our blessed Lord said of the Holy Spirit, "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you” (John 14:26). Imagine a man cast out on a desert island with nothing but a copy of the Bible, no teacher, no clergy man, no priest, no church, no other books of any kind to instruct him. Do you mean to say that that man is left without the possibility of acquiring sufficient truth for the saving of his soul because he is beyond the reach of the visible church? Surely not. Wherever a man honestly seeks to know the mind of God, the Holy Spirit is there to reveal the truth to him." - Harry Ironside

RE : /// Modern evangelicalism in America is a picture of this "waves of the sea" thousands of denominations starting with all different ideas of the truth.///

The divisions did not start with American evangelicalism, divisions have been going on throughout church history and there has been very little continuity on any subject.
and so we should conclude that church history or tradition is not an adequate lens by which to read the Scripture.

add : The reason for the divisions throughout history can be answered with a very deep study of 1 Cor.,.
Leadership has to often served as or covered the Head of each man instead of pointing each man to there true "Head"

The Word "evangelicalism" encompasses a certain amount of Basic unity in itself :

"Evangelicalism (/ˌiːvænˈdʒɛlɪkəlˌɪzəm/, /ˌɛvən/-), Evangelical Christianity, or Evangelical Protestantism[a] is a worldwide, transdenominational movement within Protestant Christianity which maintains the belief that the essence of the gospel consists of the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ's atonement.[1][2] Evangelicals believe in the centrality of the conversion or the "born again" experience in receiving salvation, in the authority of the Bible as God's revelation to humanity, and in spreading the Christian message."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism

"I defy the Pope and all his laws. If God spare my life, ere many years I will cause a boy who drives the plough to know more of the scriptures than you do."

-William Tyndale.

"I perceived how that it was impossible to establish the lay people in any truth except the Scripture were plainly laid before their eyes in their mother tongue."

- William Tyndale

Read very carefully John 5:39 to the end of the chapter.

RE : ///John 5:39
...You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me, and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life...///

The Pharisees did not read the Scriptures for themselves

because they did not believe the Scripture's ! John 5:47

Had the Pharisees believed the Scriptures they Would have recognized Jesus.

But there trust was not in the Power of God to inspire the Scriptures!

But rather in the fathers of there religion and there traditions to interput the Scriptures for them.

Of course the bible leads us to know the one in whom is eternal life and is not eternal life itself. However let's not be led down a back alley argument on this, as the point of the discussion is WHO or WHAT is the revelation of truth of eternal life in Christ. Is it the bible or is it the 'priests'? You could add is it tradition or is it visions men have?

As much as the Holy Spirit may use teachers, dreams or visions, ultimately it has to be the bible that authenticates any of these. If they contradict the scriptures they are to be rejected. So we have the 'word of God' as our light shinning in a dark and increasing deceived world as a sure foundation to stand on.

In these days it is more likely the bible is undermined than being over elevated or worshipped, particularly in the church. So do not fall into that trap and elevate any person or experience over the scriptures. Only Jesus Christ himself is above the bible.

Let us all be good Bareans and search the scriptures to find the truth of who Christ is that we may correctly know him and know His will for each of us, not being deceived by the trickery of men who may deceive with smooth words or stories!

add : RE : ///Let us all be good Bareans and search the scriptures to find the truth of who Christ is that we may correctly know him and know His will for each of us, not being deceived by the trickery of men who may deceive with smooth words or stories!////

very good !

Ignatius of Loyola was a very spiritual man , self denial , meditations , visions etc. etc.

True Christian Spirituality looks like What we see in Spurgeons observation of John Bunyan :
"Why, this man is a living Bible!” Prick him anywhere””his blood is Bibline, the very essence of the Bible flows from him. He cannot speak without quoting a text, for his very soul is full of the Word of God. I commend his example to you, beloved.

RE : /// Just suggesting we need to rethink our paradigm from the printed word. And see that God works in other ways other than the printed word.///

Rather it be a vision or someone giving the message in another language, the true message will always be consistent with the Scriptures!

add : Brother Bear, You are sorta going off track from anything pertaining to the artical.

Rules for Thinking with the Church

Ignatius of Loyola, Saint 1491-1556
Page: 3
THE FOLLOWING rules should be observed to foster the true attitude of mind we ought to have in the Church militant.

1. We must put aside all judgment of our own, and keep the mind ever ready and prompt to obey in all things the true Spouse of Jesus Christ, our holy Mother, the hierarchical Church.

2. We should praise sacramental confession, the yearly reception of the Most Blessed Sacrament, and praise more highly monthly reception, and still more weekly Communion, provided requisite and proper dispositions are present.

3. We ought to praise the frequent hearing of Mass, the singing of hymns, psalmody, and long prayers whether in the church or outside; likewise, the hours arranged at fixed times for the whole Divine Office, for every kind of prayer, and for the canonical hours.

4. We must praise highly religious life, virginity, and continency; and matrimony ought not be praised as much as any of these.

5. We should praise vows of religion, obedience, poverty, chastity, and vows to perform other works of supererogation conducive to perfection. However, it must be remembered that a vow deals with matters that lead us closer to evangelical perfection. Hence, whatever tends to withdraw one from perfection may not be made the object of a vow, for example, a business career, the married state, and so forth.

6. We should show our esteem for the relics of the saints by venerating them and praying to the saints. We should praise visits to the Station Churches, pilgrimages, indulgences, jubilees, crusade indults, the lighting of candles in churches.

7. We muse praise the regulations of the Church with regard to fast and abstinence, for example, in Lent, on Ember Days, Vigils, Fridays, and Saturdays. We should praise all works of penance, not only those that are interior but also those that are exterior.

8. We ought to praise not only the building and adornment of churches, but also images and veneration of them according to the subject they represent.

9. Finally, we must praise all the commandments of the Church, and be on the alert to find reasons to defend them, and by no means in order to criticize them.

10. We should be more ready to approve and praise the orders, recommendations, and way of acting of our superiors than to find fault with them. Though some of the orders, etc., may not have been praiseworthy, yet to speak against them, either when preaching in public or in speaking before the people, would rather be the cause of murmuring and scandal than of profit. As a consequence, the people would become angry with their superiors, whether secular or spiritual. But while it does harm in the absence of our superiors to speak evil of them before the people, it may be profitable to discuss their bad conduct with those who can apply a remedy.

11. We should praise both positive theology and that of the Scholastics. It is characteristic of the positive doctors, such as St. Augustine, St. Jerome, St. Gregory, and others, to rouse the affections so that we are moved to love and serve God our Lord in all things. On the other hand, it is more characteristic of the scholastic doctors, such as St. Thomas, St. Bonaventure, the Master of the Sentences, and others, to define and state clearly, according to the needs of our times, the doctrines that are necessary for external salvation, and that help to refute and expose more efficaciously all errors and fallacies. Further, just because scholastic doctors belong to more recent times, they not only have the advantage of correct understanding of Holy Scripture and of the teaching of the saints and positive doctors, but, enlightened by the grace of God, they also make use of the decisions of the Councils and of the definitions and decrees of our holy Mother Church.

12. We must be on our guard against making comparisons between those who are still living and the saints who have gone before us, for no small error is committed if we say: "This man is wiser than St. Augustine," "He is another St. Francis or even greater," "He is equal to St. Paul in goodness and sanctity," and so on.

http://divdl.library.yale.edu/dl/FullText.aspx?qc=AdHoc&q=3175

'SEEK ye FIRST the kingdom of God,and His righteousness'
As we read,..seeking / welcoming / desiring,..The Spirit of The Living God
to be right there teaching us,..( Diciples ) Right there,is the place of repentance, ( a willingness of turning from our will unto what He will reveal unto us of His will.

Then,as Mary sat at Jesus' feet and learned (a Disciple of Jesus) of Him, we will know the doctrine,if it be of Him,..and as Jesus said about Mary,.. she chose the better thing, and NO man could take it away from her,..she would not be tossed to and fro.

To me,..His Words are Spirit,.. as I read them or as He speaks The Word to me. (Life giving Word)
We are standing on Holy ground, if The Spirit of The Living God is there with us as we read His Word.( if we are desiring change as we read )Take our old dirty shoes off,..the shoes that we have been walking every other place in.

He wants to wash our feet,...cleanse our walk,by the washing of the water by The Word, as He gives that Word to us.

There, is where we find the true 'unity' ,that Jesus talks about,is found.
( the type of 'unity' that Jesus had with The Father )

In much love,as we grow in Him,Who is our head,
------------------
elizabeth

RE : /// He was the founder of the Jesuits. Many claim him to be evil or wrong but it was a godly movement to start with, and turned bad later on.///

Greg, this is what that foundation of the movement that you call "godly" was :

Ignatius, along with the help of his personal secretary Juan Alfonso de Polanco (es) wrote the Jesuit Constitutions, adopted in 1554, which created a monarchical organization for the order, and stressed absolute self-denial and obedience to the Pope and to superiors in the catholic hierarchy, using the motto perinde ac cadaver - "as if a dead body",[28] i.e. that the good Jesuit should be as well-disciplined as a corpse.[29] But his main principle became the Jesuit motto: Ad maiorem Dei gloriam ("for the greater glory of God").

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Loyola

The whole stream of Church history abundantly confirms the truth of the
Apostle's position. Who has not heard of the hermits and ascetics of the
early centuries? Who has not heard of the monks and nuns and recluses of
the Roman Catholic Church in the middle ages? Who has not heard of the
burning zeal, the devoted self-denial of Romanists like Xavier, and
Ignatius Loyola? The earnestness, the fervor, the self-sacrifice of all
these classes, are matters beyond dispute. But none who read carefully
and intelligently the records of their lives, yes, some of the best of
them, can fail to see that they had no solid peace or inward rest of
soul. Their very feverish restlessness is enough to show that their
conscience; were not at ease. None can fail to see that, with all their
furious zeal and self-denial, they never did much good to the world.
They gathered round themselves admiring partisans. They left a high
reputation for self-denial and sincerity. They made men wonder at them
while they lived, and sometimes canonize them when they died. But they
did nothing to convert souls. And what is the reason of this? They
attached an overweening importance to man-made ritual and ceremonial, and
made less than they ought to have done of the Gospel of the grace of God.
Their principle was to make much of "ceremony," and little of "grace."
Hence they verified the words of Paul, "Ceremonial foods are of no value
to those who eat them."
J.C. Ryle

RE /// Then brother do you believe that one needs a priest or a pastor to break open said word. Seems that Patrick got his insights through a revelation of the Holy Spirit. So can a believer take, say a New Testament and go before the Holy Spirit and get insight from God's word without the need of an intermediary to break open, the said word?///

I believe that certain Bible teachers such as Spurgeon and others can be a great help in breaking open the text.
But I also believe that we need to be careful in relying to much on other men's interpretations.
We need to study the Scriptures for ourselves.

This is from the same artical by Ironside as was the OP :

How can any one say that Christians are not capable of reading the Word of God and getting the mind of the Lord when the Holy Spirit has been sent from heaven for the express purpose of opening the truth to those who honestly seek that truth and are prepared to walk according to it?

Our blessed Lord said of the Holy Spirit, "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you” (John 14:26). Imagine a man cast out on a desert island with nothing but a copy of the Bible, no teacher, no clergy man, no priest, no church, no other books of any kind to instruct him. Do you mean to say that that man is left without the possibility of acquiring sufficient truth for the saving of his soul because he is beyond the reach of the visible church? Surely not. Wherever a man honestly seeks to know the mind of God, the Holy Spirit is there to reveal the truth to him.

They tell us that we must not use private judgment but must accept the judgment of the council and the church. But how are we going to decide to accept that? Must I not use my private judgment and decide that I will forego the reasonings of my own intellect and let the councils tell me what to believe? Is that not private judgment, after all? I remember reading Cardinal Newman’s Apologia Pro Vita Sua years ago. He tells how up to the day that he decided to submit himself to the church of Rome and accept the dictum of that church as his guide, he had very grave doubts as to many of the so called Catholic doctrines such as the position given to the pope, the place given to the blessed virgin Mary, the doctrine of purgatory, the intercession of saints and so on, but he said, "When I decided to submit my judgment to the church, all these things were settled for me.” But do you not see, he had to make the decision himself. Was not that private judgment? I have investigated these things. I have read much Roman Catholic theology, I have examined a great many volumes put out by Catholic publishers and after having compared them with the Word of God, my private judgment tells me that I dare not trust the salvation of my soul to the decision of popes or councils if they go contrary to the Book. I am resting upon what this Book reveals as to God’s way of salvation and if it tells me that Peter is the rock on which the Church is built and that there is no salvation except for those who are in the church founded by Peter, I want to know it, but I must find out from the Book.

Greg wrote:

"And how can we not be in this circumstance of never knowing the truth and always believing a new teaching by some brother or sister? it is by the instruction of God gifted leaders in the body of Christ, a few verses earlier in Ephesians 4:11 gives us that answer.

God never wanted us to try and re-figure out all of Christianity every generation from the Bible alone by ourselves. We have believers who have passed on the truth and traditions of the Apostles that we can learn from."

I think what we are missing is the context of the Body as a whole, with all the gifts and offices that we read about in Scripture. Some are teachers, but others have the gift of discernment and things balance each other out. Everyone in the Body has the responsibility to exhort and test and rebuke others if need be. Even the teacher can and should be rebuked.

The problem is when we have this distinction between clergy and laity where the balancing act is not possible and the so-called teachers lord over a congregation and suppress the outworking of the Spirit through the Body. We have seen this historically with, among others, the Catholic Church. But an individualistic, lone-ranger Christianity is not desirable either. Patrick is doing fine reading his New Testament, but if he is not at some point placed in the larger context of the true Body, I doubt that he could have the environment to flourish spiritually (although the grace and mercy of God cover many things) and fulfill the purposes of God.

When it comes to being taught by teachers established in the Body of Christ, Greg is right, but the challenge is recognizing the true expressions of the Body from the false. The Jesuits, I would submit, are a false expression and I think proudpapa made a good case for that in one of the previous posts. Of course none of us come to faith or exist in a vacuum, but in our desire to trace the unbroken continuum of the faith through history, we shouldn't whitewash blatant heresy.

In regards to missionary work and the scriptures, it is a great provision of God that the church started in a Jewish context, namely because that is the context in which Scripture (OT) was given, which is why we could have Bereans. Then evangelists are sent out of such a Body and context to teach others. But even in the early days of the church, epistles were translated and the importance of the Word was recognized. Missionaries in newer times have often even created written languages for certain peoples and tribes, because the written Word is such an enormous blessing. That such communities have to, in their early stages, rely on the grace of God and the guidance of the Spirit does not detract from that in the least. And anyways, thinking that we can somehow surmise truth and doctrine by the Word independent of the Spirit is erroneous, as it is the Spirit that reveals truth through the Word. The two work in agreement; it's not one or the other.

Sorry for the rambling post.

Edit: But it does all come down to the Scriptures, because we can only know what the true Body of Christ looks like through the Bible, and then I believe things fall into place. In reality, the process is a lot messier (I think we all know this), but it comes down to trusting that the Lord will teach us and guide us in truth.

I am glad that I, as Patrick, can read the Bible on my own and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal to me the true apostolic faith as revealed in the Word. When true revival takes place, God reveals to some the paralyzing denominational/traditional baggage that the Church has acquired so that they can pray fervently for His Body to be restored. I love to read of what God has done in the past in "dead" churches when a few people prayed in response to a burden God Himself laid upon their hearts.
When leaders no longer preach in the power of the Holy Ghost but rather present to their people dry theology or empty tradition God has other ways to reveal Himself to seeking souls who desire true life as found in Christ. The unadulterated Scripture is the undying witness of ancient truth which never changes.
Right now I am privileged to see God working in the lives of young people to bring them to a saving, life transforming relationship with Jesus. His workings are taking place in ways that defy our imagination - consequently only He gets the glory! He has blessed my wife and myself with the joy of being as spiritual "parents" to some of these dear ones. For years I have been in prayer never dreaming of how God would work His will - only seeing a great need before me. Not only are new people coming to faith - young people within the church are hungering for true life and are very grateful to find an older person who can understand them and mentor them. All this is happening in relative obscurity and the Holy Spirit is making the contacts. When the ideal pattern for church life has been marred God is not at loss to display His glory and feed His dear lambs in His own way.

David

Patrick is doing fine reading his New Testament, but if he is not at some point placed in the larger context of the true Body, I doubt that he could have the environment to flourish spiritually (although the grace and mercy of God cover many things) and fulfill the purposes of God.

Beautifully said.

When I received the baptism of Holy Spirit, I started receiving revelation from Bible. I call it revelation because my clever mind cannot understand those things. It has to be revealed by God not by clever mind. Now each week the word that the Lord spoke to me, will be exactly in line with the word that the Lord will speak to me through the Church sermon on the coming Sunday. So when the elder brothers call to share, I will be able to readily bless the Church. I could not believe how each and every week the story was exactly same! It was a sign that the Lord gave about my future ministry in his Church.

Knowing the Lord's burden for a local Church is very important. Such a word can come only in a local Church out of the Lord's burden. Every time I fellowship in my locality, I always seek the fresh word from God. Can the Lord not speak the same word directly to me? Yes he can. There are certain things that the Lord will only address in the Local Church, so that we will be perfected in unity (John 17:23).

Many here in SI who do not attend any Church, still hear Godly sermons from SI. So deep inside them they know that they cannot live by their personal Bible reading alone. So they try to satisfy that thirst using recorded sermons. If they truly believe that Bible is good enough, then why do we need SI and all those recorded sermons? The right way to satisfy that thirst is through a local Church.

In reference to Proud Papa,...mentioning of Peter being the rock that the church is built on,....may I humbly disagree?

Mt.16:16,..(Jesus asked,...."whom say ye that I am")
" And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ,The Son of the living God."
Vs.17, " And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,but my Father which is in heaven."

Vs.18, "And I say unto thee,That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

( revealed)
( rock )

I believe that the 'revealed Word of God is the Rock' , that the church is built upon....The Word,through The Spirit, that we are guided by,..
The Word, that Jesus says is Spirit, and must be Spiritually decerned.
And nothing is greater than God' Word,...The Rock, ...His Voice,..and that is why 'the gates of hell shall not prevail against it,..because He is Lord of Lords,..( rules over all lords,kings and rulers)

I believe, that we must have the revealed word,...that is revealed,through The Holy Spirit,unto each of us as we read / meditate,... hunger and desiring,..that flesh and blood,is not who we foundationally look too.
When The Lord reveals His seeing,( how He sees things) Then we can Sooo appreciate and are encouraged in the revealed word,when we hear it in another. ( unity)

And like you gave the Scripture for,..We have no need for man to teach us, that The Annointing will teach us.

I am sure there are many teachers that receive and teach the revealed Word of God,and that is good,...but the deceiver is out to deceive,....and one may only know from a human / fleshly standpoint,..and may really believe what they are teaching,..and many will follow.

The Father in heaven will reveal His Word even us too,as He says,..through the Anointing.

Jesus says,..FIRST SEEK YE,..and if Jesus commands us to do this first,
then how can we seek man first ?...wherein He holds the keys into the kingdom of God.

Am a bit tired,..
Clarity, I pray,

I humbly submit this,
--------------
elizabeth

Sister,

Thank you for the Clarity.